{"version":"1.0.0","segments":[{"speaker":"Lefteris Heretakis","startTime":9.93,"endTime":12.0,"body":"Hello, and"},{"speaker":"Lefteris Heretakis","startTime":9.93,"endTime":12.0,"body":"welcome to design education"},{"speaker":"Lefteris Heretakis","startTime":12.0,"endTime":16.65,"body":"talks podcast by the new art"},{"speaker":"Lefteris Heretakis","startTime":12.0,"endTime":16.65,"body":"school. Our guest today is Cal"},{"speaker":"Lefteris Heretakis","startTime":16.65,"endTime":18.87,"body":"Swan. Welcome, Cal."},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":19.83,"endTime":21.84,"body":"Hello, thank you for"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":19.83,"endTime":21.84,"body":"having me."},{"speaker":"Lefteris Heretakis","startTime":22.289,"endTime":24.269,"body":"It's a great"},{"speaker":"Lefteris Heretakis","startTime":22.289,"endTime":24.269,"body":"pleasure to have you here today."},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":25.11,"endTime":30.81,"body":"Tell us about you and"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":25.11,"endTime":30.81,"body":"your work. Well, hi, I've been a"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":30.81,"endTime":35.73,"body":"graphic or type of graphic"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":30.81,"endTime":35.73,"body":"designer for 50 years. I started"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":35.73,"endTime":41.16,"body":"out at art school when I was 16"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":35.73,"endTime":41.16,"body":"years old. And that was quite a"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":41.16,"endTime":45.96,"body":"new experience coming from an"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":41.16,"endTime":45.96,"body":"all boys Grammar School with"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":47.19,"endTime":51.3,"body":"then getting into an art school"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":47.19,"endTime":51.3,"body":"in the 1950s. In England, with"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":51.3,"endTime":56.58,"body":"all those beautiful big boys and"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":51.3,"endTime":56.58,"body":"girls, it was quite a shock. No"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":56.58,"endTime":70.92,"body":"shock. Fantastic. Typography was"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":56.58,"endTime":70.92,"body":"a comparatively untouched field."},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":72.0,"endTime":77.16,"body":"Certainly in term in existence."},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":72.0,"endTime":77.16,"body":"It was. Nobody had heard of a"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":77.16,"endTime":79.53,"body":"type of graphic designer. In"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":77.16,"endTime":79.53,"body":"fact, nobody really heard of"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":79.53,"endTime":87.33,"body":"designers. But in my art school,"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":79.53,"endTime":87.33,"body":"we just got a new teacher of"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":87.33,"endTime":93.33,"body":"typography, who was straight out"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":87.33,"endTime":93.33,"body":"of industry. My hometown wasn't"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":94.23,"endTime":98.73,"body":"fortunately for me, Quantico"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":94.23,"endTime":98.73,"body":"Centre for printing. And the"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":98.73,"endTime":104.28,"body":"design standard was quite high,"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":98.73,"endTime":104.28,"body":"who was a teacher, who was my"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":104.31,"endTime":110.43,"body":"teacher was straight out of the"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":104.31,"endTime":110.43,"body":"printing section, and was really"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":110.43,"endTime":113.25,"body":"a very interesting guy. If you"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":110.43,"endTime":113.25,"body":"really knew his stuff. It was"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":113.25,"endTime":113.55,"body":"lovely."},{"speaker":"Lefteris Heretakis","startTime":114.72,"endTime":117.15,"body":"Oh,"},{"speaker":"Lefteris Heretakis","startTime":114.72,"endTime":117.15,"body":"fantastic. Fantastic. So what"},{"speaker":"Lefteris Heretakis","startTime":117.15,"endTime":121.23,"body":"was the article you started in?"},{"speaker":"Lefteris Heretakis","startTime":117.15,"endTime":121.23,"body":"Sorry, what was the article you"},{"speaker":"Lefteris Heretakis","startTime":121.23,"endTime":121.83,"body":"started in?"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":122.43,"endTime":124.71,"body":"It unless the College"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":122.43,"endTime":124.71,"body":"of Art is the College of Art?"},{"speaker":"Lefteris Heretakis","startTime":124.86,"endTime":125.19,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":126.42,"endTime":128.19,"body":"Which was lucky"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":126.42,"endTime":128.19,"body":"because it was quite a good one."},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":128.52,"endTime":135.66,"body":"I think, in the 1950s, you know,"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":128.52,"endTime":135.66,"body":"maybe a lot of our scores were"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":136.2,"endTime":140.67,"body":"not that great and certainly"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":136.2,"endTime":140.67,"body":"outside of London. But less than"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":140.67,"endTime":146.31,"body":"had, along with Birmingham,"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":140.67,"endTime":146.31,"body":"London and Manchester. Leicester"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":146.31,"endTime":150.45,"body":"had postgraduate courses, it was"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":146.31,"endTime":150.45,"body":"recognised as a postgraduate"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":150.45,"endTime":154.62,"body":"centre. So that was pretty,"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":150.45,"endTime":154.62,"body":"pretty advanced for the time. I"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":154.62,"endTime":156.15,"body":"was just lucky to be in the"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":154.62,"endTime":156.15,"body":"right place."},{"speaker":"Lefteris Heretakis","startTime":160.65,"endTime":162.15,"body":"So what"},{"speaker":"Lefteris Heretakis","startTime":160.65,"endTime":162.15,"body":"happened, what happened there"},{"speaker":"Lefteris Heretakis","startTime":162.15,"endTime":163.17,"body":"during your studies?"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":163.95,"endTime":172.05,"body":"Well, I was trained"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":163.95,"endTime":172.05,"body":"as a time graphic designer. And"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":172.05,"endTime":176.64,"body":"I was I was an unusual option,"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":172.05,"endTime":176.64,"body":"because I was then placed into"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":176.64,"endTime":182.64,"body":"the school of printing. And I"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":176.64,"endTime":182.64,"body":"was the only student that Tom"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":182.64,"endTime":189.93,"body":"Wesley had a full time art"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":182.64,"endTime":189.93,"body":"student that Tom had. And so I"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":189.93,"endTime":193.41,"body":"had a one to one relationship"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":189.93,"endTime":193.41,"body":"with a tutor, which was, of"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":193.41,"endTime":198.66,"body":"course, terrific. And I learned"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":193.41,"endTime":198.66,"body":"so much from that guy who had"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":199.92,"endTime":202.74,"body":"such a lot to offer. And he was"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":199.92,"endTime":202.74,"body":"a lovely man to be with as well."},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":203.34,"endTime":208.71,"body":"So the last three years of my"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":203.34,"endTime":208.71,"body":"article, tell him what five"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":208.71,"endTime":214.44,"body":"years in total, I spent, really"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":208.71,"endTime":214.44,"body":"under the wing of Tom Wesley"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":216.12,"endTime":220.05,"body":"came out as actually quite a"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":216.12,"endTime":220.05,"body":"competent typographer."},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":220.62,"endTime":224.31,"body":"Particularly as I'm being"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":220.62,"endTime":224.31,"body":"trained in the printing School."},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":225.0,"endTime":229.95,"body":"And in those days, of course,"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":225.0,"endTime":229.95,"body":"that was just a letterpress just"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":229.95,"endTime":234.15,"body":"about everything was produced"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":229.95,"endTime":234.15,"body":"letterpress those days. Offset"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":234.15,"endTime":238.8,"body":"lithography was beginning to"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":234.15,"endTime":238.8,"body":"take over as the big business"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":238.8,"endTime":246.12,"body":"end. But for most designers was"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":238.8,"endTime":246.12,"body":"specifying typographic layouts"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":246.12,"endTime":255.99,"body":"for the printer. And it was kind"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":246.12,"endTime":255.99,"body":"of a discipline to know how to"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":256.53,"endTime":262.95,"body":"set time and I actually got a"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":256.53,"endTime":262.95,"body":"prize believe for monotype"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":262.95,"endTime":268.26,"body":"keyboard work. I'd love to touch"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":262.95,"endTime":268.26,"body":"time when I was about 19 or 20."},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":268.26,"endTime":274.59,"body":"And that was that was useful."},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":268.26,"endTime":274.59,"body":"But the main thing was that I"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":274.59,"endTime":278.64,"body":"did a bit of mine and a bit of"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":274.59,"endTime":278.64,"body":"letterpress printing a bit of"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":279.75,"endTime":285.3,"body":"composition and the composer"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":279.75,"endTime":285.3,"body":"were mind and machine work."},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":286.35,"endTime":292.77,"body":"treadle threading a plant and"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":286.35,"endTime":292.77,"body":"practising and also knowing how"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":292.77,"endTime":298.95,"body":"to operate a guillotine and I"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":292.77,"endTime":298.95,"body":"was a little printer and I was"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":298.98,"endTime":303.93,"body":"actually gone for He was banned"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":298.98,"endTime":303.93,"body":"by various people. But it was"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":303.93,"endTime":304.86,"body":"terrific training."},{"speaker":"Lefteris Heretakis","startTime":308.25,"endTime":310.14,"body":"And what"},{"speaker":"Lefteris Heretakis","startTime":308.25,"endTime":310.14,"body":"happens when you tried to when"},{"speaker":"Lefteris Heretakis","startTime":310.14,"endTime":312.48,"body":"he graduated? So what what"},{"speaker":"Lefteris Heretakis","startTime":310.14,"endTime":312.48,"body":"happened? What happened?"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":312.57,"endTime":314.94,"body":"Well, that was a"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":312.57,"endTime":314.94,"body":"problem because he last days,"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":315.21,"endTime":320.28,"body":"all able bodied 18 year olds had"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":315.21,"endTime":320.28,"body":"to go and do their military"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":320.28,"endTime":326.46,"body":"service. You could defer. Yeah,"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":320.28,"endTime":326.46,"body":"if you were on course, and I did"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":326.46,"endTime":330.15,"body":"that I would defer until I was"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":326.46,"endTime":330.15,"body":"21, when I finished the"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":330.15,"endTime":337.23,"body":"programme, and but then I had to"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":330.15,"endTime":337.23,"body":"go into the Royal Air Force. But"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":337.23,"endTime":345.66,"body":"I was lucky again, because I got"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":337.23,"endTime":345.66,"body":"photography. And I'm, I, I'm not"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":345.66,"endTime":348.9,"body":"have a very good photographic"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":345.66,"endTime":348.9,"body":"training in the art school"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":348.93,"endTime":355.98,"body":"because I really started. But"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":348.93,"endTime":355.98,"body":"going into the RAF, they were"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":356.25,"endTime":362.19,"body":"very organised on training. And"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":356.25,"endTime":362.19,"body":"it wasn't just a sort of try"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":362.19,"endTime":368.25,"body":"this technique. We started with"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":362.19,"endTime":368.25,"body":"phonograms, the quality of light"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":368.4,"endTime":375.3,"body":"and fixing stuff. It was really"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":368.4,"endTime":375.3,"body":"a very basic photographic"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":375.3,"endTime":380.16,"body":"training, which of course,"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":375.3,"endTime":380.16,"body":"became so useful to me in the"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":380.16,"endTime":387.48,"body":"professional life because I"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":380.16,"endTime":387.48,"body":"wasn't a good illustrator. But I"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":387.69,"endTime":393.69,"body":"mean, I could draw, but I wasn't"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":387.69,"endTime":393.69,"body":"good illustrator, typefaces. But"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":393.81,"endTime":398.55,"body":"photography, and typography"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":393.81,"endTime":398.55,"body":"combined with quite a potent"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":398.64,"endTime":406.14,"body":"communication tool. So"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":398.64,"endTime":406.14,"body":"photography in the RAF was a bit"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":406.14,"endTime":411.87,"body":"of an interruption, a design"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":406.14,"endTime":411.87,"body":"career, and I would have liked"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":412.5,"endTime":417.78,"body":"if they just take me away for"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":412.5,"endTime":417.78,"body":"you, rather than two years of my"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":417.78,"endTime":422.07,"body":"life, but it wasn't entirely"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":417.78,"endTime":422.07,"body":"wasted. It was really good"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":422.1,"endTime":423.45,"body":"photographic. and"},{"speaker":"Lefteris Heretakis","startTime":425.61,"endTime":428.04,"body":"wonderful."},{"speaker":"Lefteris Heretakis","startTime":425.61,"endTime":428.04,"body":"And after after that,"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":429.09,"endTime":433.23,"body":"well, I got a job"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":429.09,"endTime":433.23,"body":"with a printing firm. Now,"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":434.37,"endTime":438.93,"body":"printing firms these days, quite"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":434.37,"endTime":438.93,"body":"large, if they've got 10 or 12"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":438.93,"endTime":446.97,"body":"people. The firm I joined, had"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":438.93,"endTime":446.97,"body":"750 people. That's a large"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":446.97,"endTime":449.31,"body":"printing firm by anybody's"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":446.97,"endTime":449.31,"body":"standards. And it was a large"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":449.31,"endTime":456.72,"body":"why there are only eight or"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":449.31,"endTime":456.72,"body":"nine, comparatively a part of"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":456.72,"endTime":461.79,"body":"size printing firms in the UK at"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":456.72,"endTime":461.79,"body":"that time, included in places"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":461.79,"endTime":466.71,"body":"like a major stake in real. So"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":461.79,"endTime":466.71,"body":"it was a beam firm in"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":466.71,"endTime":473.4,"body":"Nottingham. And they were just"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":466.71,"endTime":473.4,"body":"starting a design group under an"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":473.4,"endTime":478.92,"body":"ex compositor named Vic"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":473.4,"endTime":478.92,"body":"Stapleton. And Vic was quite a"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":478.92,"endTime":489.12,"body":"fierce guy. Very different, very"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":478.92,"endTime":489.12,"body":"dreadful. And rather refined"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":489.45,"endTime":497.31,"body":"English gentleman was quite"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":489.45,"endTime":497.31,"body":"forceful. But nonetheless, he"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":497.31,"endTime":500.37,"body":"was very good. He gave his"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":497.31,"endTime":500.37,"body":"business and I learned a hell of"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":502.11,"endTime":507.27,"body":"a year before I was enticed back"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":502.11,"endTime":507.27,"body":"to an advertising agency in"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":507.27,"endTime":511.32,"body":"Leicester where I'd worked in"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":507.27,"endTime":511.32,"body":"one of the holiday periods. And"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":511.32,"endTime":516.42,"body":"they wanted a typo. And I went"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":511.32,"endTime":516.42,"body":"back to the typography with them"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":516.42,"endTime":521.85,"body":"and not that was quite"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":516.42,"endTime":521.85,"body":"interesting because I was taken"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":521.85,"endTime":528.3,"body":"on board by George Kent, who was"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":521.85,"endTime":528.3,"body":"a copywriter. And he ran a"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":528.93,"endTime":537.03,"body":"octava size magazine, which was"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":528.93,"endTime":537.03,"body":"about advertising and in the"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":537.03,"endTime":540.81,"body":"area, it was called ad lib. And"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":537.03,"endTime":540.81,"body":"each of the shine to some of my"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":540.81,"endTime":546.33,"body":"designer on a freehand to design"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":540.81,"endTime":546.33,"body":"the covers. And even the"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":546.33,"endTime":550.62,"body":"magazine itself. It was a small"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":546.33,"endTime":550.62,"body":"thing, but it was good because"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":550.62,"endTime":556.65,"body":"it got me designs which didn't"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":550.62,"endTime":556.65,"body":"have the commercial pressures of"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":556.65,"endTime":563.88,"body":"clients wanting this bigger and"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":556.65,"endTime":563.88,"body":"bigger. I enjoyed the time will"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":564.84,"endTime":570.66,"body":"be advertising even though I"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":564.84,"endTime":570.66,"body":"didn't do that much typography"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":571.17,"endTime":576.75,"body":"and advertising. Those days just"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":571.17,"endTime":576.75,"body":"fitted the text around whatever"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":577.14,"endTime":582.66,"body":"illustrations the art director"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":577.14,"endTime":582.66,"body":"some country but it was good. It"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":582.66,"endTime":588.51,"body":"was a good experience. And it"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":582.66,"endTime":588.51,"body":"enabled me to be back in Alaska,"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":589.02,"endTime":594.96,"body":"where Tom wanted me to do some"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":589.02,"endTime":594.96,"body":"part time teaching. And I did I"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":594.96,"endTime":597.81,"body":"did a couple of evenings"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":594.96,"endTime":597.81,"body":"teaching which got me"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":597.81,"endTime":603.9,"body":"interested. Of course in the"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":597.81,"endTime":603.9,"body":"teeth him. And he encouraged me"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":603.9,"endTime":610.71,"body":"to apply for a full time at"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":603.9,"endTime":610.71,"body":"Manchester College, which I"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":610.71,"endTime":617.91,"body":"applied for them to my surprise."},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":610.71,"endTime":617.91,"body":"So I started in Manchester when"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":617.91,"endTime":622.23,"body":"I was 25. I started at"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":617.91,"endTime":622.23,"body":"Manchester as an assistant"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":622.23,"endTime":628.23,"body":"lecturer at grade V was very"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":622.23,"endTime":628.23,"body":"poorly paid. And I'm also"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":628.23,"endTime":632.31,"body":"married and we just started a"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":628.23,"endTime":632.31,"body":"family as well. So it was tough"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":632.31,"endTime":639.48,"body":"time, financially. But it was"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":632.31,"endTime":639.48,"body":"great to be in education, and to"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":639.48,"endTime":644.07,"body":"be with some pretty experienced"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":639.48,"endTime":644.07,"body":"people. There was a typography"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":644.19,"endTime":649.29,"body":"stamp author who is no longer"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":644.19,"endTime":649.29,"body":"with us. But Steiner was head of"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":649.29,"endTime":655.29,"body":"the graphic design department, a"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":649.29,"endTime":655.29,"body":"very fine typography. And he was"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":656.7,"endTime":663.78,"body":"one of my idols and mentors in"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":656.7,"endTime":663.78,"body":"that first job. Along was a man"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":663.78,"endTime":673.44,"body":"named Don Warner, who died only"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":663.78,"endTime":673.44,"body":"a year ago. And Don was a very"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":673.44,"endTime":678.57,"body":"generous teacher who's more"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":673.44,"endTime":678.57,"body":"experienced on Iowa. They hadn't"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":678.93,"endTime":683.37,"body":"actually had done military"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":678.93,"endTime":683.37,"body":"service, but somehow he seemed"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":683.37,"endTime":688.59,"body":"to be much more experienced and"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":683.37,"endTime":688.59,"body":"knowledgeable and introduced me"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":688.59,"endTime":697.5,"body":"to a lot of philosophical books"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":688.59,"endTime":697.5,"body":"on design and so on. I really"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":697.5,"endTime":703.17,"body":"got into the Swiss stuff at that"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":697.5,"endTime":703.17,"body":"stage. And Donald was really"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":703.17,"endTime":708.21,"body":"generous in sharing his"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":703.17,"endTime":708.21,"body":"information with me. So I was"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":708.21,"endTime":714.63,"body":"lucky again. My wife was fond of"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":708.21,"endTime":714.63,"body":"telling me and everybody that I"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":714.63,"endTime":721.32,"body":"was born under a lucky star. I"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":714.63,"endTime":721.32,"body":"wouldn't tell you that. Most of"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":721.32,"endTime":728.85,"body":"the time, certainly"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":721.32,"endTime":728.85,"body":"professionally, I was lucky. So,"},{"speaker":"Lefteris Heretakis","startTime":759.5500000000001,"endTime":765.7600000000001,"body":"just so what"},{"speaker":"Lefteris Heretakis","startTime":759.5500000000001,"endTime":765.7600000000001,"body":"happened during sort of what was"},{"speaker":"Lefteris Heretakis","startTime":765.7600000000001,"endTime":768.3100000000001,"body":"what was his education, then"},{"speaker":"Lefteris Heretakis","startTime":765.7600000000001,"endTime":768.3100000000001,"body":"those days like?"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":770.1700000000001,"endTime":775.6,"body":"Well, it was it was"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":770.1700000000001,"endTime":775.6,"body":"before the equivalent of a BA in"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":775.6,"endTime":779.2,"body":"design. It was just a diploma"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":775.6,"endTime":779.2,"body":"from the colleges, but it was"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":780.3100000000001,"endTime":784.33,"body":"Manchester was quite a Go ahead"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":780.3100000000001,"endTime":784.33,"body":"place. And then they developed a"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":784.33,"endTime":790.0,"body":"lot of new courses. And they"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":784.33,"endTime":790.0,"body":"also had, what I was teaching in"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":790.0,"endTime":796.0300000000001,"body":"the typographic workshop, which"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":790.0,"endTime":796.0300000000001,"body":"was owed to me, a letterpress"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":796.0600000000001,"endTime":802.4200000000001,"body":"workshop was terrific. I had the"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":796.0600000000001,"endTime":802.4200000000001,"body":"great fortune to get a technical"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":802.4200000000001,"endTime":807.0100000000001,"body":"assistant, who manage that"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":802.4200000000001,"endTime":807.0100000000001,"body":"workshop, a guy named Tony"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":807.0100000000001,"endTime":811.0,"body":"Bennett, multiple singer. But"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":807.0100000000001,"endTime":811.0,"body":"Tony was really first laughing"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":811.0,"endTime":814.69,"body":"was terrific with the students."},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":811.0,"endTime":814.69,"body":"And I think we run a pretty good"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":816.099,"endTime":821.0490000000001,"body":"programme up in Manchester for"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":816.099,"endTime":821.0490000000001,"body":"often in touch, by the way with"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":821.0490000000001,"endTime":827.229,"body":"some of the students who often"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":821.0490000000001,"endTime":827.229,"body":"went on quite successful."},{"speaker":"Lefteris Heretakis","startTime":829.2090000000001,"endTime":830.0790000000001,"body":"Do you"},{"speaker":"Lefteris Heretakis","startTime":829.2090000000001,"endTime":830.0790000000001,"body":"remember anything of the"},{"speaker":"Lefteris Heretakis","startTime":830.0790000000001,"endTime":834.519,"body":"curriculum of those days? Sorry,"},{"speaker":"Lefteris Heretakis","startTime":830.0790000000001,"endTime":834.519,"body":"do you remember anything from"},{"speaker":"Lefteris Heretakis","startTime":834.519,"endTime":835.9290000000001,"body":"the curriculum of those days?"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":836.3800000000001,"endTime":840.94,"body":"Well, I was I was"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":836.3800000000001,"endTime":840.94,"body":"teaching typography to all the"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":840.94,"endTime":844.3000000000001,"body":"students who came into graphic"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":840.94,"endTime":844.3000000000001,"body":"design. So those who might"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":844.3000000000001,"endTime":847.96,"body":"finish up illustrators or"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":844.3000000000001,"endTime":847.96,"body":"advertising last year I"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":847.96,"endTime":853.36,"body":"introduced, typography was like"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":847.96,"endTime":853.36,"body":"a diagnostic. When students"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":853.84,"endTime":857.1400000000001,"body":"chose what they would do, in"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":853.84,"endTime":857.1400000000001,"body":"terms of where they were going"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":857.1400000000001,"endTime":861.73,"body":"into advertising, three"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":857.1400000000001,"endTime":861.73,"body":"dimensional design, whatever"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":861.73,"endTime":870.61,"body":"else. I ran the typography of up"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":861.73,"endTime":870.61,"body":"to a year programme up to the"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":870.61,"endTime":879.5200000000001,"body":"debate. And we had a good team"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":870.61,"endTime":879.5200000000001,"body":"of staff. And some very bright"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":879.5200000000001,"endTime":885.7900000000001,"body":"students, much of it was a"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":879.5200000000001,"endTime":885.7900000000001,"body":"frankly, good students. And I"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":885.7900000000001,"endTime":890.32,"body":"was doing a typography"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":885.7900000000001,"endTime":890.32,"body":"introduction programme, which"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":890.32,"endTime":899.83,"body":"was based on Mr. rudas. stuff in"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":890.32,"endTime":899.83,"body":"in Basel. And that's when I got"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":899.83,"endTime":905.98,"body":"introduced to the working party"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":899.83,"endTime":905.98,"body":"on typographic TV. And the W. P."},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":905.98,"endTime":913.9300000000001,"body":"Diddy was established by the HMI"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":905.98,"endTime":913.9300000000001,"body":"for art and design, a man named"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":913.9300000000001,"endTime":918.94,"body":"David Wright. And he put Michael"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":913.9300000000001,"endTime":918.94,"body":"Twyman who was Professor of"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":918.94,"endTime":923.8900000000001,"body":"typography at Reading"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":918.94,"endTime":923.8900000000001,"body":"University. So, we gathered"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":923.8900000000001,"endTime":928.99,"body":"together quite a lot of"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":923.8900000000001,"endTime":928.99,"body":"typographic teachers and the"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":928.99,"endTime":932.3800000000001,"body":"first conference in 90 Each 68"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":928.99,"endTime":932.3800000000001,"body":"was at the centre of School"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":932.8000000000001,"endTime":938.62,"body":"crafts. And that was quite a"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":932.8000000000001,"endTime":938.62,"body":"turning point, I think, in the"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":938.62,"endTime":945.19,"body":"UK in terms of focusing much"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":938.62,"endTime":945.19,"body":"better teaching in the area of"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":945.19,"endTime":951.07,"body":"typographic design. And I was"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":945.19,"endTime":951.07,"body":"one of the presenters take care"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":951.07,"endTime":958.0300000000001,"body":"of the stuff I was doing at"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":951.07,"endTime":958.0300000000001,"body":"Manchester. I'll tell you, where"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":958.0300000000001,"endTime":961.0300000000001,"body":"I finished my presentation on"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":958.0300000000001,"endTime":961.0300000000001,"body":"what we'd be doing at Manchester"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":961.0600000000001,"endTime":967.0300000000001,"body":"with this glorious letterpress"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":961.0600000000001,"endTime":967.0300000000001,"body":"workshop. I just finished my"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":967.0300000000001,"endTime":970.4200000000001,"body":"presentation and there was a"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":967.0300000000001,"endTime":970.4200000000001,"body":"call for questions from the"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":970.4200000000001,"endTime":974.0500000000001,"body":"audience. And somewhere right in"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":970.4200000000001,"endTime":974.0500000000001,"body":"the middle of that quite big"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":974.0500000000001,"endTime":979.1500000000001,"body":"theatre. I've always said, Well,"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":974.0500000000001,"endTime":979.1500000000001,"body":"it's all very well for you in a"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":979.1500000000001,"endTime":983.47,"body":"nice, rich place like"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":979.1500000000001,"endTime":983.47,"body":"Manchester, but what do we do in"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":983.98,"endTime":988.75,"body":"places where we don't have"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":983.98,"endTime":988.75,"body":"glorious equipment? Now"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":988.75,"endTime":994.36,"body":"suggested by that, because I had"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":988.75,"endTime":994.36,"body":"never expected anything of that"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":994.36,"endTime":999.58,"body":"kind of nature. And before I"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":994.36,"endTime":999.58,"body":"could think of an answer, Peter"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":999.58,"endTime":1003.5400000000001,"body":"Byrne Hill, who was head of"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":999.58,"endTime":1003.5400000000001,"body":"graphic designer, stuffer"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":1004.1700000000001,"endTime":1010.7700000000001,"body":"gunked, up and shouted back,"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":1004.1700000000001,"endTime":1010.7700000000001,"body":"middle of audience. What are you"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":1010.98,"endTime":1013.8000000000001,"body":"talking about? What are you"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":1010.98,"endTime":1013.8000000000001,"body":"afraid of? I can teach"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":1013.8000000000001,"endTime":1020.6400000000001,"body":"typography with a stick in the"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":1013.8000000000001,"endTime":1020.6400000000001,"body":"sand. Which was, became very"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":1020.6400000000001,"endTime":1025.98,"body":"important. I carry that with me"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":1020.6400000000001,"endTime":1025.98,"body":"for the rest of my life, because"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":1025.98,"endTime":1029.16,"body":"I think what it did was to"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":1025.98,"endTime":1029.16,"body":"encapsulate that it didn't"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":1029.16,"endTime":1034.35,"body":"really matter what technology"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":1029.16,"endTime":1034.35,"body":"was going to be what was"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":1034.35,"endTime":1039.27,"body":"important, the principles of"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":1034.35,"endTime":1039.27,"body":"typography and letter spacing,"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":1039.48,"endTime":1043.02,"body":"word spacing, line spacing,"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":1039.48,"endTime":1043.02,"body":"spacing around the page, it's"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":1043.02,"endTime":1047.79,"body":"all and that you can teach"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":1043.02,"endTime":1047.79,"body":"without knowing what the"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":1047.79,"endTime":1052.53,"body":"technology is. And of course,"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":1047.79,"endTime":1052.53,"body":"from that letterpress workshop,"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":1053.34,"endTime":1057.8400000000001,"body":"and letterpress operation in"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":1053.34,"endTime":1057.8400000000001,"body":"industry, we've gone through"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":1057.9,"endTime":1058.29,"body":"those"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":1063.809,"endTime":1070.8890000000001,"body":"kind of photo typesetting. And"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":1063.809,"endTime":1070.8890000000001,"body":"now we've got the computer"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":1070.8890000000001,"endTime":1077.999,"body":"desktop, with software, like"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":1070.8890000000001,"endTime":1077.999,"body":"InDesign, and I've just"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":1077.999,"endTime":1084.6290000000001,"body":"discovered affinity. And it's"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":1077.999,"endTime":1084.6290000000001,"body":"magic, what we have on the"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":1084.6290000000001,"endTime":1089.909,"body":"desktop now. And from all of"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":1084.6290000000001,"endTime":1089.909,"body":"that happened within those 50"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":1089.909,"endTime":1096.5990000000002,"body":"years of working my working"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":1089.909,"endTime":1096.5990000000002,"body":"life. It came from that very"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":1096.5990000000002,"endTime":1105.299,"body":"skillful, 500 year old craft of"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":1096.5990000000002,"endTime":1105.299,"body":"selling time. And currently in"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":1105.449,"endTime":1113.459,"body":"quite complicated print jobs. To"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":1105.449,"endTime":1113.459,"body":"now I can just conjure something"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":1113.459,"endTime":1121.409,"body":"up on on my computer to the"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":1113.459,"endTime":1121.409,"body":"local office, go and pick up the"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":1121.409,"endTime":1128.279,"body":"printer. If I don't print it on"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":1121.409,"endTime":1128.279,"body":"my own home printer, which is I"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":1128.279,"endTime":1132.809,"body":"don't even I ended up proving"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":1128.279,"endTime":1132.809,"body":"that we don't have the"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":1132.809,"endTime":1137.729,"body":"equipment. The professional"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":1132.809,"endTime":1137.729,"body":"question, but I mean, it's been"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":1137.729,"endTime":1145.319,"body":"a vast change in one lifetime"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":1137.729,"endTime":1145.319,"body":"from that technology, which they"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":1145.319,"endTime":1153.239,"body":"invented 500 years before sort"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":1145.319,"endTime":1153.239,"body":"of emerging of what we can do on"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":1153.239,"endTime":1159.329,"body":"the computer. So how do you"},{"speaker":"Lefteris Heretakis","startTime":1159.3300000000002,"endTime":1161.43,"body":"feel that"},{"speaker":"Lefteris Heretakis","startTime":1159.3300000000002,"endTime":1161.43,"body":"has changed"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":1162.39,"endTime":1165.6000000000001,"body":"in education? Well,"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":1162.39,"endTime":1165.6000000000001,"body":"how"},{"speaker":"Lefteris Heretakis","startTime":1165.6000000000001,"endTime":1167.64,"body":"do you feel"},{"speaker":"Lefteris Heretakis","startTime":1165.6000000000001,"endTime":1167.64,"body":"that has shifted in education"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":1169.3200000000002,"endTime":1173.64,"body":"had had its problems."},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":1169.3200000000002,"endTime":1173.64,"body":"And I remember in South"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":1173.64,"endTime":1178.29,"body":"Australia when I was fixing"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":1173.64,"endTime":1178.29,"body":"typography, first year students"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":1178.29,"endTime":1186.0900000000001,"body":"basically I had to ban design"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":1178.29,"endTime":1186.0900000000001,"body":"designs on a4 sheets of paper."},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":1188.97,"endTime":1192.45,"body":"Because the students just went"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":1188.97,"endTime":1192.45,"body":"to the nearest thing they could"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":1192.45,"endTime":1200.43,"body":"do on a computer and hand it in."},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":1192.45,"endTime":1200.43,"body":"And I deliberately set projects"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":1200.43,"endTime":1207.1200000000001,"body":"which we're making up companies"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":1200.43,"endTime":1207.1200000000001,"body":"falling paper and getting them"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":1207.1200000000001,"endTime":1212.7,"body":"to look at paper and print and"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":1207.1200000000001,"endTime":1212.7,"body":"what how it felt in their hands"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":1213.3,"endTime":1217.8600000000001,"body":"to attribute a three dimensional"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":1213.3,"endTime":1217.8600000000001,"body":"to the handle of read to get"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":1217.8600000000001,"endTime":1218.79,"body":"into the microphone."},{"speaker":"Lefteris Heretakis","startTime":1222.8400000000001,"endTime":1224.31,"body":"So you said"},{"speaker":"Lefteris Heretakis","startTime":1222.8400000000001,"endTime":1224.31,"body":"you wanted to talk about the"},{"speaker":"Lefteris Heretakis","startTime":1224.31,"endTime":1226.44,"body":"working party on typographic"},{"speaker":"Lefteris Heretakis","startTime":1224.31,"endTime":1226.44,"body":"teaching?"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":1226.92,"endTime":1232.26,"body":"Oh yes, we'll do. It"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":1226.92,"endTime":1232.26,"body":"really brought together A lot of"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":1232.26,"endTime":1238.68,"body":"the best teachers in the UK. And"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":1232.26,"endTime":1238.68,"body":"we had conferences and working"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":1238.68,"endTime":1245.13,"body":"fathers and stuff, which enabled"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":1238.68,"endTime":1245.13,"body":"us to share our expertise and"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":1245.13,"endTime":1250.95,"body":"also share it with with others."},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":1245.13,"endTime":1250.95,"body":"And I think it made quite a"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":1250.95,"endTime":1255.69,"body":"difference. Michael Twyman was a"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":1250.95,"endTime":1255.69,"body":"fantastic man I used to live"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":1255.69,"endTime":1263.52,"body":"with. Michael was Professor of"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":1255.69,"endTime":1263.52,"body":"typography course, at Reading"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":1263.52,"endTime":1267.3300000000002,"body":"University. It was unique in the"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":1263.52,"endTime":1267.3300000000002,"body":"UK, when all of those were"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":1267.3300000000002,"endTime":1271.8300000000002,"body":"running graphic design courses"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":1267.3300000000002,"endTime":1271.8300000000002,"body":"in art schools until I went into"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":1271.8300000000002,"endTime":1277.56,"body":"the Polytechnic, but myClub"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":1271.8300000000002,"endTime":1277.56,"body":"develop typography within the"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":1277.56,"endTime":1282.48,"body":"university context, and they"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":1277.56,"endTime":1282.48,"body":"were looking at the theories of"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":1282.96,"endTime":1287.97,"body":"communication and how the"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":1282.96,"endTime":1287.97,"body":"language was the visible"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":1287.97,"endTime":1293.88,"body":"language was used. Raul"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":1287.97,"endTime":1293.88,"body":"lightmap, from teaching"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":1293.88,"endTime":1299.8500000000001,"body":"typography was a stickler."},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":1293.88,"endTime":1299.8500000000001,"body":"Michael was terrific. And what"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":1299.8500000000001,"endTime":1306.75,"body":"he was what we all went along,"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":1299.8500000000001,"endTime":1306.75,"body":"suggested in the report of the"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":1306.75,"endTime":1313.8600000000001,"body":"working party was you needed not"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":1306.75,"endTime":1313.8600000000001,"body":"to rely so much on the art"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":1314.25,"endTime":1321.8700000000001,"body":"school background, were one"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":1314.25,"endTime":1321.8700000000001,"body":"dealt with just one had to deal"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":1321.9,"endTime":1328.95,"body":"with the communication of"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":1321.9,"endTime":1328.95,"body":"information. And we also had to"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":1328.95,"endTime":1332.91,"body":"bring in the expertise of other"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":1328.95,"endTime":1332.91,"body":"people like the computing,"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":1333.78,"endTime":1337.3500000000001,"body":"because that was very important"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":1333.78,"endTime":1337.3500000000001,"body":"time, and how computing was"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":1337.3500000000001,"endTime":1339.0900000000001,"body":"affecting the design."},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":1340.6200000000001,"endTime":1348.21,"body":"marketing people, salespeople,"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":1340.6200000000001,"endTime":1348.21,"body":"sociology of mass media,"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":1351.0,"endTime":1354.42,"body":"students a very different kind"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":1351.0,"endTime":1354.42,"body":"of background to the normal art"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":1354.42,"endTime":1355.14,"body":"school training,"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":1355.17,"endTime":1361.41,"body":"we can convert it very much on"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":1355.17,"endTime":1361.41,"body":"just artistic checks for their"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":1361.41,"endTime":1368.3400000000001,"body":"own sake. And with very little"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":1361.41,"endTime":1368.3400000000001,"body":"application in the real world."},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":1368.3400000000001,"endTime":1375.93,"body":"So during the late 60s and 70s,"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":1368.3400000000001,"endTime":1375.93,"body":"it was a very important"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":1376.68,"endTime":1384.0,"body":"broadening of the concept of"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":1376.68,"endTime":1384.0,"body":"communication. We're lucky to"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":1384.0,"endTime":1390.0900000000001,"body":"have that started by David Rock"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":1384.0,"endTime":1390.0900000000001,"body":"the HMI, and guided principally"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":1390.0900000000001,"endTime":1395.49,"body":"by Michael Toma, plus some"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":1390.0900000000001,"endTime":1395.49,"body":"terrific work from Ernest Hawke,"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":1396.21,"endTime":1402.54,"body":"who was also a middle European"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":1396.21,"endTime":1402.54,"body":"designer become for Britain, and"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":1402.54,"endTime":1409.38,"body":"was keen to introduce a lot of"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":1402.54,"endTime":1409.38,"body":"the continental metric systems"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":1409.38,"endTime":1415.41,"body":"and so on. So it wasn't a very"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":1409.38,"endTime":1415.41,"body":"good place where we could have"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":1415.77,"endTime":1419.67,"body":"an exchange of information and"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":1415.77,"endTime":1419.67,"body":"sharing stuff with conferences."},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":1420.03,"endTime":1423.48,"body":"It was staff development of our"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":1420.03,"endTime":1423.48,"body":"significant time."},{"speaker":"Lefteris Heretakis","startTime":1427.0800000000002,"endTime":1429.3,"body":"Your goals"},{"speaker":"Lefteris Heretakis","startTime":1427.0800000000002,"endTime":1429.3,"body":"that you wanted to talk about"},{"speaker":"Lefteris Heretakis","startTime":1429.3,"endTime":1431.49,"body":"writing, typing design"},{"speaker":"Lefteris Heretakis","startTime":1429.3,"endTime":1431.49,"body":"designing."},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":1434.1000000000001,"endTime":1438.96,"body":"I, I've met earnest"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":1434.1000000000001,"endTime":1438.96,"body":"and in impressed by him, he"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":1438.96,"endTime":1443.8200000000002,"body":"wanted to come and see what we"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":1438.96,"endTime":1443.8200000000002,"body":"were doing at Manchester. And I"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":1443.8200000000002,"endTime":1450.72,"body":"invited him getting paid to come"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":1443.8200000000002,"endTime":1450.72,"body":"into a project. And that was a"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":1450.72,"endTime":1454.68,"body":"very smart move on my part"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":1450.72,"endTime":1454.68,"body":"because I learned a lot more"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":1454.68,"endTime":1459.3,"body":"than students. What earnest"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":1454.68,"endTime":1459.3,"body":"introduced was concept of"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":1459.9,"endTime":1465.3,"body":"writing, comparison and the"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":1459.9,"endTime":1465.3,"body":"difference between writing,"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":1465.78,"endTime":1469.8,"body":"typing and printing also simply"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":1465.78,"endTime":1469.8,"body":"those days because that's,"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":1470.04,"endTime":1476.19,"body":"that's all we have. Right,"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":1470.04,"endTime":1476.19,"body":"right. Right to left. You could"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":1476.19,"endTime":1481.92,"body":"play with the strike on third"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":1476.19,"endTime":1481.92,"body":"bracket. But then you could do"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":1481.95,"endTime":1492.96,"body":"letterpress printing kind of"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":1481.95,"endTime":1492.96,"body":"three very much always revealed."},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":1493.05,"endTime":1502.53,"body":"I've been teaching online from a"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":1493.05,"endTime":1502.53,"body":"design issue in Australia. And I"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":1502.53,"endTime":1509.91,"body":"did three units of typography"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":1502.53,"endTime":1509.91,"body":"and development and thought, but"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":1509.91,"endTime":1517.2,"body":"I was still doing writing typing"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":1509.91,"endTime":1517.2,"body":"in sets, because what I always"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":1517.2,"endTime":1525.54,"body":"had to change to was writing or"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":1517.2,"endTime":1525.54,"body":"texting and printing off the off"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":1525.54,"endTime":1531.48,"body":"the computer and then designing"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":1525.54,"endTime":1531.48,"body":"our multiple autoscale for a"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":1531.48,"endTime":1540.18,"body":"mass communication, writing time"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":1531.48,"endTime":1540.18,"body":"and designing into a project"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":1540.18,"endTime":1544.89,"body":"where I got the students to"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":1540.18,"endTime":1544.89,"body":"write a letter to a personal"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":1544.89,"endTime":1554.46,"body":"friend about something that they"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":1544.89,"endTime":1554.46,"body":"felt very emotional about. And"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":1554.97,"endTime":1562.14,"body":"the students were required to"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":1554.97,"endTime":1562.14,"body":"write it in digital form as a"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":1562.2,"endTime":1567.99,"body":"text message, they were then"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":1562.2,"endTime":1567.99,"body":"asked to insert writing just to"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":1568.02,"endTime":1571.14,"body":"their personal friend, where"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":1568.02,"endTime":1571.14,"body":"they knew that friend of how to"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":1571.14,"endTime":1575.01,"body":"communicate with them, that they"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":1571.14,"endTime":1575.01,"body":"wouldn't have to write to a"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":1575.01,"endTime":1580.5,"body":"newspaper on the same kind of"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":1575.01,"endTime":1580.5,"body":"issue, and try and persuade a"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":1580.5,"endTime":1585.9,"body":"more general readership. And the"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":1580.5,"endTime":1585.9,"body":"last exercise then they didn't"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":1585.9,"endTime":1589.71,"body":"know what they were doing until"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":1585.9,"endTime":1589.71,"body":"they got at stake. And the last"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":1589.71,"endTime":1595.3500000000001,"body":"exercise was to design a ticker"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":1589.71,"endTime":1595.3500000000001,"body":"with the same message. So a lot"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":1595.3500000000001,"endTime":1601.5,"body":"of different forms of expression"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":1595.3500000000001,"endTime":1601.5,"body":"and technology with the same"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":1601.5,"endTime":1609.03,"body":"message and I have one bright"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":1601.5,"endTime":1609.03,"body":"student in South Australia at"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":1609.03,"endTime":1613.2,"body":"the University of South"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":1609.03,"endTime":1613.2,"body":"Australia, Peter Green and he"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":1614.67,"endTime":1619.65,"body":"brought him along to a personal"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":1614.67,"endTime":1619.65,"body":"friend and it was about suicide"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":1622.2,"endTime":1630.81,"body":"talks about searching and moving"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":1622.2,"endTime":1630.81,"body":"letter to persuade friend not to"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":1631.41,"endTime":1637.6200000000001,"body":"get involved. He then wrote a"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":1631.41,"endTime":1637.6200000000001,"body":"bright letter to the newspapers"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":1637.6200000000001,"endTime":1638.46,"body":"to try and put"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":1639.99,"endTime":1647.46,"body":"wider emphasis and then he was"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":1639.99,"endTime":1647.46,"body":"surprised when the last exercise"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":1649.6200000000001,"endTime":1655.17,"body":"out of this and he was the"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":1649.6200000000001,"endTime":1655.17,"body":"student and submit upon the last"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":1655.17,"endTime":1659.13,"body":"presentation of the T shirts and"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":1655.17,"endTime":1659.13,"body":"are surprised because he's new"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":1659.13,"endTime":1664.8,"body":"as good enables students and he"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":1659.13,"endTime":1664.8,"body":"came to me afterwards that I I"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":1664.8,"endTime":1671.4,"body":"didn't think you take my design"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":1664.8,"endTime":1671.4,"body":"why I do. And I feel Try me. And"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":1671.4,"endTime":1677.64,"body":"he said, Well, I I was thinking"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":1671.4,"endTime":1677.64,"body":"about my friend again. And I had"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":1677.64,"endTime":1682.56,"body":"a t shirt. But it wasn't a"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":1677.64,"endTime":1682.56,"body":"message on the front. It was a"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":1682.56,"endTime":1688.98,"body":"label on the back inside, which"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":1682.56,"endTime":1688.98,"body":"said, think well of yourself"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":1689.43,"endTime":1697.92,"body":"when you wear this t shirt. And"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":1689.43,"endTime":1697.92,"body":"I was always brilliant. I later"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":1697.92,"endTime":1702.9,"body":"went on to do a good career in"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":1697.92,"endTime":1702.9,"body":"design of course, but I thought"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":1702.9,"endTime":1713.67,"body":"that was a fantastic poetic"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":1702.9,"endTime":1713.67,"body":"concept getting going with the"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":1713.7,"endTime":1717.1200000000001,"body":"with that project because I"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":1713.7,"endTime":1717.1200000000001,"body":"thought if someone can come up"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":1717.1200000000001,"endTime":1719.4,"body":"with that idea, it's not a bad"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":1717.1200000000001,"endTime":1719.4,"body":"project"},{"speaker":"Lefteris Heretakis","startTime":1724.74,"endTime":1726.21,"body":"you also"},{"speaker":"Lefteris Heretakis","startTime":1724.74,"endTime":1726.21,"body":"said something about letter to a"},{"speaker":"Lefteris Heretakis","startTime":1726.21,"endTime":1729.51,"body":"friend email to newspaper t"},{"speaker":"Lefteris Heretakis","startTime":1726.21,"endTime":1729.51,"body":"shirt. This is the one we're"},{"speaker":"Lefteris Heretakis","startTime":1729.51,"endTime":1734.3400000000001,"body":"talking about. Right now. He"},{"speaker":"Lefteris Heretakis","startTime":1729.51,"endTime":1734.3400000000001,"body":"said he said letter to a friend"},{"speaker":"Lefteris Heretakis","startTime":1734.3400000000001,"endTime":1736.92,"body":"email to newspaper t shirt. This"},{"speaker":"Lefteris Heretakis","startTime":1734.3400000000001,"endTime":1736.92,"body":"this is the one you talked"},{"speaker":"Lefteris Heretakis","startTime":1736.92,"endTime":1741.8400000000001,"body":"about. Yeah, yes. Yeah. And the"},{"speaker":"Lefteris Heretakis","startTime":1736.92,"endTime":1741.8400000000001,"body":"distance learning strategies. So"},{"speaker":"Lefteris Heretakis","startTime":1741.93,"endTime":1746.55,"body":"but between Manchester what's"},{"speaker":"Lefteris Heretakis","startTime":1741.93,"endTime":1746.55,"body":"what happened after Manchester?"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":1747.9,"endTime":1754.26,"body":"Ah, well, I got a job"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":1747.9,"endTime":1754.26,"body":"as Head of Design at a graphic"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":1754.26,"endTime":1757.8300000000002,"body":"design at North stuffs falling"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":1754.26,"endTime":1757.8300000000002,"body":"which was really early down the"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":1757.8300000000002,"endTime":1763.38,"body":"road about 50. It was halfway"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":1757.8300000000002,"endTime":1763.38,"body":"between Manchester and"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":1763.38,"endTime":1769.98,"body":"Birmingham. And it was a new"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":1763.38,"endTime":1769.98,"body":"event in a small school that to"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":1769.98,"endTime":1775.8,"body":"be merged into two large"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":1769.98,"endTime":1775.8,"body":"technical colleges. In 1970, I"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":1775.8,"endTime":1779.6100000000001,"body":"was setting up a polytechnic"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":1775.8,"endTime":1779.6100000000001,"body":"throughout the United Kingdom."},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":1780.3,"endTime":1788.31,"body":"And I became head of graphics"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":1780.3,"endTime":1788.31,"body":"again right time because from"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":1788.31,"endTime":1795.75,"body":"the swinging 60s wonderful"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":1788.31,"endTime":1795.75,"body":"phrase of the swinging 60s Rich"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":1795.75,"endTime":1803.25,"body":"60s We went into the 1970s with"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":1795.75,"endTime":1803.25,"body":"a reasonable amount of money. So"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":1803.28,"endTime":1808.89,"body":"expansion was very much the key"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":1803.28,"endTime":1808.89,"body":"to education at that time. And"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":1808.89,"endTime":1810.8400000000001,"body":"the bottom thickness wanted to"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":1808.89,"endTime":1810.8400000000001,"body":"explain like maths."},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":1812.7,"endTime":1817.47,"body":"The graphic design course I went"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":1812.7,"endTime":1817.47,"body":"to only had an intake of 15"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":1817.47,"endTime":1825.3300000000002,"body":"students. That's about as small"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":1817.47,"endTime":1825.3300000000002,"body":"as you can get. And there was a"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":1825.3300000000002,"endTime":1828.27,"body":"moratorium on the number of"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":1825.3300000000002,"endTime":1828.27,"body":"students that you can have"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":1829.95,"endTime":1833.91,"body":"but the had to change after a"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":1829.95,"endTime":1833.91,"body":"few years. But what we developed"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":1834.03,"endTime":1840.39,"body":"in conjunction with the, the"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":1834.03,"endTime":1840.39,"body":"regional magisters expect a man"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":1840.39,"endTime":1844.44,"body":"named pick highly was to"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":1840.39,"endTime":1844.44,"body":"introduce a multidisciplinary"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":1844.5,"endTime":1849.1200000000001,"body":"design. So what happened was we"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":1844.5,"endTime":1849.1200000000001,"body":"put together the three"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":1849.1200000000001,"endTime":1856.5,"body":"dimensional design, ceramics, of"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":1849.1200000000001,"endTime":1856.5,"body":"course in Stoke on Trent. And"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":1856.5,"endTime":1861.0900000000001,"body":"the graphic design which we'd"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":1856.5,"endTime":1861.0900000000001,"body":"expanded into illustration,"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":1861.5700000000002,"endTime":1868.53,"body":"typography and audio video. We"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":1861.5700000000002,"endTime":1868.53,"body":"expanded it all into this"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":1868.53,"endTime":1873.6000000000001,"body":"multidisciplinary design course."},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":1868.53,"endTime":1873.6000000000001,"body":"And in the end, we were taking"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":1873.9,"endTime":1879.3,"body":"170 students. So that was a that"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":1873.9,"endTime":1879.3,"body":"was quite a significant"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":1880.5,"endTime":1886.74,"body":"enlargement of bottom design in"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":1880.5,"endTime":1886.74,"body":"we've worked on it think in a"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":1886.74,"endTime":1893.97,"body":"lot of places with a polytechnic"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":1886.74,"endTime":1893.97,"body":"there's a lot of expansion. And"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":1893.97,"endTime":1899.46,"body":"I was four, I moved around quite"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":1893.97,"endTime":1899.46,"body":"a lot in the early stages. And"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":1900.72,"endTime":1905.4,"body":"in Stoke on Trent, I was there"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":1900.72,"endTime":1905.4,"body":"for 11 years as head of the"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":1905.4,"endTime":1916.0800000000002,"body":"school of design of broken"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":1905.4,"endTime":1916.0800000000002,"body":"design. And we was also where I"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":1916.0800000000002,"endTime":1927.66,"body":"lived for quite a while it was"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":1916.0800000000002,"endTime":1927.66,"body":"all quite exciting myself but I"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":1927.66,"endTime":1935.7,"body":"felt I needed something new and"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":1927.66,"endTime":1935.7,"body":"a new challenge. And when the"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":1935.97,"endTime":1941.19,"body":"most of head of designer some"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":1935.97,"endTime":1941.19,"body":"modern school in London came off"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":1941.19,"endTime":1945.3,"body":"I applied for that and again"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":1941.19,"endTime":1945.3,"body":"surprised myself by getting it"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":1946.0800000000002,"endTime":1956.46,"body":"and that was really quite a step"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":1946.0800000000002,"endTime":1956.46,"body":"up from Stoke on Trent that"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":1956.46,"endTime":1962.64,"body":"might nobody wants you to know"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":1956.46,"endTime":1962.64,"body":"Socotra not really accepting"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":1962.73,"endTime":1967.95,"body":"Potter's do of course, ceramics"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":1962.73,"endTime":1967.95,"body":"people. But Trent as a as a"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":1967.95,"endTime":1973.5900000000001,"body":"design, graphic design centre"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":1967.95,"endTime":1973.5900000000001,"body":"was not only not on the map,"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":1974.8500000000001,"endTime":1979.95,"body":"Martin School of Art in central"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":1974.8500000000001,"endTime":1979.95,"body":"London is a different kettle of"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":1979.95,"endTime":1986.8500000000001,"body":"fish altogether. But I found"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":1979.95,"endTime":1986.8500000000001,"body":"that the newspapers and campaign"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":1987.39,"endTime":1990.69,"body":"papers were coming to me just"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":1987.39,"endTime":1990.69,"body":"comment on whatever is"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":1990.72,"endTime":1995.6100000000001,"body":"happening. And I'll say the same"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":1990.72,"endTime":1995.6100000000001,"body":"thing, but I'm saying when I was"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":1995.6100000000001,"endTime":2002.21,"body":"having my stuff on, but suddenly"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":1995.6100000000001,"endTime":2002.21,"body":"it was a London voice and got"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":2002.21,"endTime":2010.8200000000002,"body":"some publicity. It's very London"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":2002.21,"endTime":2010.8200000000002,"body":"centric. But it was interesting"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":2010.8200000000002,"endTime":2016.73,"body":"and it was great. I love to be"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":2010.8200000000002,"endTime":2016.73,"body":"in Oregon. It was a different"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":2016.73,"endTime":2022.7,"body":"world. It was amazing, really."},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":2016.73,"endTime":2022.7,"body":"The sort of things that happened"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":2022.94,"endTime":2026.78,"body":"because it was London and it was"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":2022.94,"endTime":2026.78,"body":"on Hong Kong on a lawmaker in"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":2026.78,"endTime":2032.9,"body":"Covent Garden. We had this on"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":2026.78,"endTime":2032.9,"body":"the ground floor of this old"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":2033.2,"endTime":2043.79,"body":"1920s warehouse. There was a"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":2033.2,"endTime":2043.79,"body":"nice window shop window where a"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":2043.79,"endTime":2049.7,"body":"technician who's to hang should"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":2043.79,"endTime":2049.7,"body":"work. And we because of a guy"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":2049.7,"endTime":2054.62,"body":"named Richard dowsed, who was"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":2049.7,"endTime":2054.62,"body":"very good longtime member of"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":2056.21,"endTime":2062.57,"body":"Martin Richard had introduced"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":2056.21,"endTime":2062.57,"body":"computer graphics. And the"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":2062.57,"endTime":2070.1,"body":"students were printing stuff out"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":2062.57,"endTime":2070.1,"body":"on these long paper. And some"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":2070.1,"endTime":2076.16,"body":"guys from Macintosh Apple"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":2070.1,"endTime":2076.16,"body":"machines saw this stuff came and"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":2076.19,"endTime":2082.76,"body":"said would you like half a dozen"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":2076.19,"endTime":2082.76,"body":"Macintoshes to play play with?"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":2083.06,"endTime":2086.51,"body":"We'd love to see what they do"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":2083.06,"endTime":2086.51,"body":"with it. Well, you know Woodway"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":2088.58,"endTime":2092.15,"body":"it was quite something to be in"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":2088.58,"endTime":2092.15,"body":"the middle of lunch where that"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":2092.15,"endTime":2096.77,"body":"kind of thing could happen. It"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":2092.15,"endTime":2096.77,"body":"would never happen in Stoke on"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":2096.77,"endTime":2101.84,"body":"track. Absolutely."},{"speaker":"Lefteris Heretakis","startTime":2101.93,"endTime":2105.26,"body":"So you went"},{"speaker":"Lefteris Heretakis","startTime":2101.93,"endTime":2105.26,"body":"to become head of department."},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":2107.329,"endTime":2113.989,"body":"And then when I was"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":2107.329,"endTime":2113.989,"body":"head of some mountains for a"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":2113.989,"endTime":2120.559,"body":"while and we had this terrible"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":2113.989,"endTime":2120.559,"body":"thing of course courses with the"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":2120.559,"endTime":2125.809,"body":"Central School. Now it wasn't"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":2120.559,"endTime":2125.809,"body":"terrible. Being Central School,"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":2125.989,"endTime":2133.5190000000002,"body":"but trying to totally reorganise"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":2125.989,"endTime":2133.5190000000002,"body":"the day font ethos of teaching"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":2133.5190000000002,"endTime":2136.849,"body":"approaches in two different"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":2133.5190000000002,"endTime":2136.849,"body":"school and Central School, we've"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":2136.849,"endTime":2147.169,"body":"been there for young artists."},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":2136.849,"endTime":2147.169,"body":"And we were challenged with"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":2148.639,"endTime":2154.969,"body":"having to reduce courses in"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":2148.639,"endTime":2154.969,"body":"central London. And what they"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":2155.029,"endTime":2160.549,"body":"what the London Authority"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":2155.029,"endTime":2160.549,"body":"decided to do was to combine"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":2160.639,"endTime":2166.789,"body":"courses rather than lose. So our"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":2160.639,"endTime":2166.789,"body":"situation was that we would have"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":2166.789,"endTime":2172.129,"body":"to combine the two graphic"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":2166.789,"endTime":2172.129,"body":"design courses at Central School"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":2172.399,"endTime":2178.399,"body":"and St Maarten. And also combine"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":2172.399,"endTime":2178.399,"body":"them to find out that way we"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":2178.399,"endTime":2180.739,"body":"would reduce to courses."},{"speaker":"Lefteris Heretakis","startTime":2182.51,"endTime":2184.61,"body":"And why"},{"speaker":"Lefteris Heretakis","startTime":2182.51,"endTime":2184.61,"body":"would why were these two courses"},{"speaker":"Lefteris Heretakis","startTime":2184.61,"endTime":2185.21,"body":"combined?"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":2187.43,"endTime":2194.7200000000003,"body":"The national advisory"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":2187.43,"endTime":2194.7200000000003,"body":"body had said that we must"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":2194.7200000000003,"endTime":2200.54,"body":"reduce forces in London, there"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":2194.7200000000003,"endTime":2200.54,"body":"were too many. And it was really"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":2202.1,"endTime":2205.4,"body":"it was under structure and it"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":2202.1,"endTime":2205.4,"body":"was a government structure"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":2205.4,"endTime":2213.8,"body":"basically. So London instead of"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":2205.4,"endTime":2213.8,"body":"mainly cleansing, Camberwell and"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":2216.89,"endTime":2226.73,"body":"Charter School, which they do."},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":2216.89,"endTime":2226.73,"body":"From buying courses, we got rid,"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":2226.73,"endTime":2235.76,"body":"of course, name and number. 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And we"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":2247.85,"endTime":2252.53,"body":"had to do it within a year."},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":2247.85,"endTime":2252.53,"body":"Because if we didn't do it and"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":2252.53,"endTime":2260.15,"body":"get it organised, the CDA was"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":2252.53,"endTime":2260.15,"body":"not going to recognise and we"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":2260.15,"endTime":2264.77,"body":"will not be taking any students."},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":2260.15,"endTime":2264.77,"body":"But there will be quite a promo"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":2265.28,"endTime":2272.2400000000002,"body":"of stuff for dominance ism,"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":2265.28,"endTime":2272.2400000000002,"body":"chaos. And we have this"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":2272.7200000000003,"endTime":2281.06,"body":"incredible trying to align two"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":2272.7200000000003,"endTime":2281.06,"body":"different courses and one launch"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":2281.06,"endTime":2287.39,"body":"course. Eventually, I was put in"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":2281.06,"endTime":2287.39,"body":"charge of the course later of"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":2287.39,"endTime":2297.65,"body":"the new course. We did actually"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":2287.39,"endTime":2297.65,"body":"get approval. Well, okay. I've"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":2297.65,"endTime":2301.31,"body":"been very crafting and taking"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":2297.65,"endTime":2301.31,"body":"advantage of the new Department"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":2301.31,"endTime":2308.63,"body":"of Educational science ruling"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":2301.31,"endTime":2308.63,"body":"wondered to ensure the teaching"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":2308.63,"endTime":2314.06,"body":"staff were better qualified, you"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":2308.63,"endTime":2314.06,"body":"know, most of us like I've only"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":2314.06,"endTime":2320.2400000000002,"body":"had a National Diploma, which"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":2314.06,"endTime":2320.2400000000002,"body":"was nothing really compared to"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":2321.4700000000003,"endTime":2329.09,"body":"the degrees that were handed"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":2321.4700000000003,"endTime":2329.09,"body":"out. It was a little bit of"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":2329.09,"endTime":2334.94,"body":"amusement that most of us have"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":2329.09,"endTime":2334.94,"body":"already had a National Diploma."},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":2336.02,"endTime":2340.67,"body":"Now organising courses which"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":2336.02,"endTime":2340.67,"body":"were included in masters of"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":2340.76,"endTime":2345.53,"body":"design, it was very strange. So"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":2340.76,"endTime":2345.53,"body":"what the Department of Education"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":2345.53,"endTime":2351.77,"body":"sites are offering grants for"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":2345.53,"endTime":2351.77,"body":"staff to up their"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":2351.77,"endTime":2356.33,"body":"qualifications, I was, by that"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":2351.77,"endTime":2356.33,"body":"time, very interested in"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":2357.38,"endTime":2363.44,"body":"typography with language. And so"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":2357.38,"endTime":2363.44,"body":"I had arranged with a"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":2363.44,"endTime":2370.16,"body":"sympathetic London Education"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":2363.44,"endTime":2370.16,"body":"Authority inspector more than"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":2370.16,"endTime":2374.06,"body":"merged arrangement. If we were"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":2370.16,"endTime":2374.06,"body":"successful in getting this"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":2374.06,"endTime":2380.96,"body":"course approved. Then I would"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":2374.06,"endTime":2380.96,"body":"bother off to a year on an MA in"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":2380.96,"endTime":2384.35,"body":"linguistics at Lancaster"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":2380.96,"endTime":2384.35,"body":"University, which actually was"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":2384.35,"endTime":2390.2000000000003,"body":"terrific, I loved it. It was a"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":2384.35,"endTime":2390.2000000000003,"body":"challenge. And it was very"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":2390.2000000000003,"endTime":2396.23,"body":"different, the academic study,"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":2390.2000000000003,"endTime":2396.23,"body":"but it was perfect because I"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":2396.41,"endTime":2402.92,"body":"just what I wanted the professor"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":2396.41,"endTime":2402.92,"body":"of linguistics in Lancaster,"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":2404.36,"endTime":2412.4,"body":"Chris Conlon and he was a very"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":2404.36,"endTime":2412.4,"body":"widely Catholic kind of"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":2412.9700000000003,"endTime":2417.89,"body":"linguist. And he's going to me"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":2412.9700000000003,"endTime":2417.89,"body":"when I went for interview was"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":2418.67,"endTime":2423.92,"body":"how interesting to have a visual"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":2418.67,"endTime":2423.92,"body":"artists in our midst. This is"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":2423.92,"endTime":2429.05,"body":"going to be very challenging."},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":2423.92,"endTime":2429.05,"body":"Yes. It was actually it was"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":2429.05,"endTime":2432.77,"body":"lovely and And I got on very"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":2429.05,"endTime":2432.77,"body":"well with with Chris Gardner who"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":2432.77,"endTime":2438.65,"body":"went incidentally to Australia"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":2432.77,"endTime":2438.65,"body":"as head of the linguistics"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":2438.65,"endTime":2443.39,"body":"department in Macquarie"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":2438.65,"endTime":2443.39,"body":"University. And we would meet up"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":2443.39,"endTime":2450.68,"body":"later on in Australia. But the"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":2443.39,"endTime":2450.68,"body":"year fantastic and university"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":2450.71,"endTime":2454.7000000000003,"body":"doing linguistics was just what"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":2450.71,"endTime":2454.7000000000003,"body":"I want it because it gave me a"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":2454.7000000000003,"endTime":2459.68,"body":"foundation and the theoretical"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":2454.7000000000003,"endTime":2459.68,"body":"framework of how we communicate"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":2459.9500000000003,"endTime":2466.31,"body":"with a language and seen the"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":2459.9500000000003,"endTime":2466.31,"body":"visible language as part of the"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":2466.79,"endTime":2470.63,"body":"entire run of language. It was a"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":2466.79,"endTime":2470.63,"body":"lot."},{"speaker":"Lefteris Heretakis","startTime":2473.57,"endTime":2475.61,"body":"So you did"},{"speaker":"Lefteris Heretakis","startTime":2473.57,"endTime":2475.61,"body":"the Masters, and then"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":2476.84,"endTime":2481.64,"body":"well, then I was"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":2476.84,"endTime":2481.64,"body":"interested in getting out of"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":2481.88,"endTime":2490.55,"body":"London, what you believe. I"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":2481.88,"endTime":2490.55,"body":"applied for what I was, I was"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":2490.55,"endTime":2495.4700000000003,"body":"appointed eventually as the Dean"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":2490.55,"endTime":2495.4700000000003,"body":"of the Faculty of our design, in"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":2495.4700000000003,"endTime":2499.31,"body":"livable, livable Polytechnic,"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":2495.4700000000003,"endTime":2499.31,"body":"which was third or fourth"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":2499.31,"endTime":2503.66,"body":"largest authentic in the country"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":2499.31,"endTime":2503.66,"body":"at the time. But he was in dire"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":2503.66,"endTime":2504.08,"body":"straits"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":2507.7400000000002,"endTime":2512.96,"body":"into the hands of battle with"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":2507.7400000000002,"endTime":2512.96,"body":"Barbara. And the leader of local"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":2512.96,"endTime":2521.4500000000003,"body":"council was Derek, Derek red,"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":2512.96,"endTime":2521.4500000000003,"body":"who'd been on brinkmanship with"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":2524.7200000000003,"endTime":2530.66,"body":"the budget for Liverpool, the"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":2524.7200000000003,"endTime":2530.66,"body":"opera. And I'm when I was"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":2530.66,"endTime":2533.75,"body":"appointed, as head of graphic"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":2530.66,"endTime":2533.75,"body":"designer at Liverpool."},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":2535.37,"endTime":2543.02,"body":"I had the usual bundle of papers"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":2535.37,"endTime":2543.02,"body":"that conditions of first and"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":2543.77,"endTime":2550.4,"body":"last one was saying that we're"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":2543.77,"endTime":2550.4,"body":"making everyone redundant from"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":2550.46,"endTime":2558.41,"body":"December I was given a job"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":2550.46,"endTime":2558.41,"body":"offered a job and don't be"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":2558.41,"endTime":2563.4500000000003,"body":"redundant. But everybody was"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":2558.41,"endTime":2563.4500000000003,"body":"being made redundant. Because"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":2563.4500000000003,"endTime":2568.94,"body":"they sorted out the budget"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":2563.4500000000003,"endTime":2568.94,"body":"eventually was sorted. And of"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":2568.94,"endTime":2573.26,"body":"course, we did start and I"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":2568.94,"endTime":2573.26,"body":"became Dean of the Faculty of"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":2573.53,"endTime":2579.5,"body":"Design. And that was my last job"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":2573.53,"endTime":2579.5,"body":"before I went to Australia."},{"speaker":"Lefteris Heretakis","startTime":2582.38,"endTime":2583.79,"body":"Why did you"},{"speaker":"Lefteris Heretakis","startTime":2582.38,"endTime":2583.79,"body":"go to Australia?"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":2584.6,"endTime":2590.69,"body":"Well, well, yes, I'd"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":2584.6,"endTime":2590.69,"body":"always wanted to go. What"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":2590.69,"endTime":2593.6,"body":"actually started out that first"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":2590.69,"endTime":2593.6,"body":"teaching job in Manchester,"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":2594.56,"endTime":2601.67,"body":"there was a guy who was on the"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":2594.56,"endTime":2601.67,"body":"staff very nice chap who'd been"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":2601.67,"endTime":2610.2200000000003,"body":"teaching in New Zealand. And I"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":2601.67,"endTime":2610.2200000000003,"body":"thought what a better climate"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":2617.36,"endTime":2622.73,"body":"another part of the world wasn't"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":2617.36,"endTime":2622.73,"body":"so keen on Australia at the time"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":2622.73,"endTime":2631.04,"body":"because it seemed to be a rather"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":2622.73,"endTime":2631.04,"body":"cool place to rock not not not"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":2631.04,"endTime":2639.8,"body":"sorry. They will, they could be"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":2631.04,"endTime":2639.8,"body":"very rude. I thought New Zealand"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":2639.8,"endTime":2642.89,"body":"might be good, but nothing"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":2639.8,"endTime":2642.89,"body":"happened when I did write to"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":2642.89,"endTime":2648.2000000000003,"body":"those places for jobs. But I got"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":2642.89,"endTime":2648.2000000000003,"body":"the usual response to very"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":2648.2000000000003,"endTime":2652.43,"body":"interesting your application. We"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":2648.2000000000003,"endTime":2652.43,"body":"don't have any vacancies at the"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":2652.43,"endTime":2661.4,"body":"moment. So I eventually gave up"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":2652.43,"endTime":2661.4,"body":"going to go to New Zealand. By"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":2661.4,"endTime":2663.65,"body":"that time, Australia changed."},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":2669.2000000000003,"endTime":2677.7200000000003,"body":"Aesop's about the films coming"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":2669.2000000000003,"endTime":2677.7200000000003,"body":"out of Australia and the late"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":2677.7200000000003,"endTime":2687.53,"body":"stone age. And I got interested"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":2677.7200000000003,"endTime":2687.53,"body":"in in Australia, and a friend of"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":2687.53,"endTime":2695.4500000000003,"body":"mine, Bob Smith have been in"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":2687.53,"endTime":2695.4500000000003,"body":"Australia for some years. And I"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":2696.71,"endTime":2704.15,"body":"love to watch her for years."},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":2696.71,"endTime":2704.15,"body":"Liverpool, Liverpool. I wanted"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":2704.15,"endTime":2710.6,"body":"to see some of the world for"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":2704.15,"endTime":2710.6,"body":"myself. And I persuaded the HMI"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":2710.6,"endTime":2715.1,"body":"from the local area to support"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":2710.6,"endTime":2715.1,"body":"an application for me to go"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":2717.02,"endTime":2723.38,"body":"abroad and do electrical with my"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":2717.02,"endTime":2723.38,"body":"typography and linguistic"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":2723.9500000000003,"endTime":2728.75,"body":"approach. Which did either"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":2723.9500000000003,"endTime":2728.75,"body":"didn't matter getting the"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":2728.75,"endTime":2735.59,"body":"funding for it But I did. I do,"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":2728.75,"endTime":2735.59,"body":"like organise, so I'm gonna go"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":2735.59,"endTime":2744.2000000000003,"body":"anyway. So I went to Hong Kong."},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":2735.59,"endTime":2744.2000000000003,"body":"And then down to where I stayed"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":2744.2000000000003,"endTime":2750.35,"body":"with Chris Conklin, the"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":2744.2000000000003,"endTime":2750.35,"body":"professor before University, and"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":2750.35,"endTime":2754.9700000000003,"body":"I did a little tour, we got a"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":2750.35,"endTime":2754.9700000000003,"body":"range, we're doing basically the"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":2754.9700000000003,"endTime":2759.26,"body":"same nature, different places."},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":2754.9700000000003,"endTime":2759.26,"body":"But I ended up in Adelaide,"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":2760.19,"endTime":2765.59,"body":"where the school of design had a"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":2760.19,"endTime":2765.59,"body":"board would be the head of"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":2765.59,"endTime":2771.8,"body":"school. And he got back to the"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":2765.59,"endTime":2771.8,"body":"UK for a period of time. And so"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":2771.8,"endTime":2778.2200000000003,"body":"there was a vacancy for that."},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":2771.8,"endTime":2778.2200000000003,"body":"And eventually got, it seemed"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":2778.2200000000003,"endTime":2786.8,"body":"like a good opportunity. I was"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":2778.2200000000003,"endTime":2786.8,"body":"fed up of nowhere, Sasha, who"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":2786.8,"endTime":2797.81,"body":"rules the roost and changing"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":2786.8,"endTime":2797.81,"body":"education into the American like"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":2797.81,"endTime":2806.93,"body":"a profit company, rather than"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":2797.81,"endTime":2806.93,"body":"education. And I didn't like"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":2807.41,"endTime":2813.7400000000002,"body":"where that was going. And"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":2807.41,"endTime":2813.7400000000002,"body":"Australia certainly did. And we"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":2813.7400000000002,"endTime":2822.17,"body":"went, Oh, was little, our budget"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":2813.7400000000002,"endTime":2822.17,"body":"for Operation really very small,"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":2822.68,"endTime":2825.38,"body":"mean, very difficult to operate"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":2822.68,"endTime":2825.38,"body":"on."},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":2826.67,"endTime":2835.1,"body":"I'm in touch with electricity in"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":2826.67,"endTime":2835.1,"body":"charge of that area, where I was"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":2837.89,"endTime":2845.54,"body":"reminded me lately, they used to"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":2837.89,"endTime":2845.54,"body":"send students out to around the"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":2845.54,"endTime":2852.8,"body":"city, looking for fabric, maybe"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":2845.54,"endTime":2852.8,"body":"television, with copper tubing,"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":2854.2400000000002,"endTime":2863.9,"body":"material. It was a desperate"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":2854.2400000000002,"endTime":2863.9,"body":"situation for a normal financing"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":2863.9,"endTime":2868.28,"body":"and funding for an education"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":2863.9,"endTime":2868.28,"body":"programme. So it was very tough,"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":2869.27,"endTime":2870.05,"body":"local, I think,"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":2871.37,"endTime":2876.59,"body":"the worst and other places but"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":2871.37,"endTime":2876.59,"body":"not as bad as it wasn't a good"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":2876.62,"endTime":2881.36,"body":"situation to be an Aquarian Head"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":2876.62,"endTime":2881.36,"body":"of School. And then the dean of"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":2881.36,"endTime":2890.18,"body":"faculty for over 20 years. I"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":2881.36,"endTime":2890.18,"body":"hadn't got the phrase of burnout"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":2890.48,"endTime":2897.68,"body":"at that time. But it was getting"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":2890.48,"endTime":2897.68,"body":"serious that I needed to have a"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":2897.68,"endTime":2902.36,"body":"break from from that. I had"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":2897.68,"endTime":2902.36,"body":"actually decided to take early"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":2902.36,"endTime":2907.46,"body":"retirement. And I worked out the"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":2902.36,"endTime":2907.46,"body":"design to go in retirement and"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":2907.94,"endTime":2912.83,"body":"taught on a contract basis. I"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":2907.94,"endTime":2912.83,"body":"would obviously draw a salary"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":2914.84,"endTime":2921.53,"body":"that was still livable, and I"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":2914.84,"endTime":2921.53,"body":"would be able to exist without"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":2921.59,"endTime":2931.79,"body":"the worries of being the dean of"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":2921.59,"endTime":2931.79,"body":"whole faculty 500 students start"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":2931.79,"endTime":2938.09,"body":"to enjoy the teaching and living"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":2931.79,"endTime":2938.09,"body":"again. So I I took early"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":2938.09,"endTime":2945.83,"body":"retirement from the UK. But I"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":2938.09,"endTime":2945.83,"body":"didn't know that the Head of"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":2945.83,"endTime":2952.19,"body":"School in South Australia,"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":2945.83,"endTime":2952.19,"body":"Adelaide was going as well. So"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":2952.79,"endTime":2958.94,"body":"it was just fine. I hadn't"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":2952.79,"endTime":2958.94,"body":"actually got the job when I"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":2958.94,"endTime":2965.33,"body":"return, but it did come up"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":2958.94,"endTime":2965.33,"body":"eventually. So I moved to"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":2965.33,"endTime":2971.12,"body":"Australia. I spent about seven"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":2965.33,"endTime":2971.12,"body":"years in Adelaide, and they were"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":2971.15,"endTime":2977.6,"body":"good. And I wanted to study very"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":2971.15,"endTime":2977.6,"body":"much. The climate of course was"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":2977.6,"endTime":2984.65,"body":"terrific. It was our first go"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":2977.6,"endTime":2984.65,"body":"the eating and drinking on the"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":2984.65,"endTime":2993.68,"body":"pavement cafes which I'm sure"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":2984.65,"endTime":2993.68,"body":"you're familiar with. And then"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":2993.68,"endTime":2999.83,"body":"John came up in curtain person"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":2993.68,"endTime":2999.83,"body":"was the friendly front which I"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":2999.83,"endTime":3003.19,"body":"went for larger because it was"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":2999.83,"endTime":3003.19,"body":"it would be nice to see another"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":3003.19,"endTime":3011.26,"body":"part it was a hell of a long way"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":3003.19,"endTime":3011.26,"body":"from LA. So that was it. I would"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":3011.32,"endTime":3016.9,"body":"I retired from Kurt in the year"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":3011.32,"endTime":3016.9,"body":"2001 Which was 50 years exactly."},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":3017.32,"endTime":3024.79,"body":"After I started art school. Much"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":3017.32,"endTime":3024.79,"body":"more I've written about him in"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":3024.82,"endTime":3028.96,"body":"the autographic the"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":3024.82,"endTime":3028.96,"body":"autobiography of calm"},{"speaker":"Lefteris Heretakis","startTime":3030.7000000000003,"endTime":3033.76,"body":"Tell us tell"},{"speaker":"Lefteris Heretakis","startTime":3030.7000000000003,"endTime":3033.76,"body":"us about your book. Well, it's"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":3035.29,"endTime":3042.13,"body":"it's square format 24"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":3035.29,"endTime":3042.13,"body":"centimetres square. And because"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":3042.13,"endTime":3045.34,"body":"of the size, it's a bit"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":3042.13,"endTime":3045.34,"body":"expensive, which I'm sorry"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":3045.34,"endTime":3053.29,"body":"about, but the size was just so"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":3045.34,"endTime":3053.29,"body":"beautiful. But it just record of"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":3053.32,"endTime":3058.42,"body":"those 50 years, all the teaching"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":3053.32,"endTime":3058.42,"body":"appointments, who I worked with"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":3060.46,"endTime":3065.32,"body":"the problems, the successes, the"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":3060.46,"endTime":3065.32,"body":"failures. And there were a"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":3065.32,"endTime":3074.41,"body":"couple of very big failures. But"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":3065.32,"endTime":3074.41,"body":"it's all in the almost total"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":3074.5,"endTime":3078.79,"body":"book. And his worry is"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":3074.5,"endTime":3078.79,"body":"illustrated with the graphic"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":3078.79,"endTime":3083.9500000000003,"body":"work, which I'm because I was"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":3078.79,"endTime":3083.9500000000003,"body":"doing graphic design. For all"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":3083.9500000000003,"endTime":3090.1,"body":"that time, I thought I'd move"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":3083.9500000000003,"endTime":3090.1,"body":"reasonably well. With the"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":3090.1,"endTime":3093.94,"body":"different trends of graphics. I"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":3090.1,"endTime":3093.94,"body":"never said any trends. And I"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":3093.94,"endTime":3098.56,"body":"never considered myself to be"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":3093.94,"endTime":3098.56,"body":"anything other than a journeyman"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":3098.89,"endTime":3104.32,"body":"designer. Nevertheless, the the"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":3098.89,"endTime":3104.32,"body":"word represents a kind of"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":3104.32,"endTime":3112.54,"body":"mainstream sort of history."},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":3104.32,"endTime":3112.54,"body":"visual graphic design spread"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":3112.54,"endTime":3116.23,"body":"throughout the book as well. I"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":3112.54,"endTime":3116.23,"body":"just thought it was worth doing."},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":3116.26,"endTime":3119.71,"body":"I started out as something I was"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":3116.26,"endTime":3119.71,"body":"going to do for my kids."},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":3122.71,"endTime":3129.94,"body":"Actually, my kids haven't really"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":3122.71,"endTime":3129.94,"body":"well. I think they'll probably"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":3129.94,"endTime":3136.63,"body":"get more resilient when it when"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":3129.94,"endTime":3136.63,"body":"they're a little older. But it"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":3136.63,"endTime":3146.23,"body":"was written with them in mind."},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":3136.63,"endTime":3146.23,"body":"And then when it was forming"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":3146.68,"endTime":3153.82,"body":"much better, as well. As visual"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":3146.68,"endTime":3153.82,"body":"thing. I decided that I would"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":3153.82,"endTime":3159.07,"body":"separate books, one would be"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":3153.82,"endTime":3159.07,"body":"more of a family thing with"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":3159.07,"endTime":3166.87,"body":"family history and stuff. I"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":3159.07,"endTime":3166.87,"body":"would bet the square foot one"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":3167.17,"endTime":3172.96,"body":"was a informal generator"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":3167.17,"endTime":3172.96,"body":"designed. Just out now."},{"speaker":"Lefteris Heretakis","startTime":3174.79,"endTime":3176.17,"body":"Oh,"},{"speaker":"Lefteris Heretakis","startTime":3174.79,"endTime":3176.17,"body":"fantastic. So there are two"},{"speaker":"Lefteris Heretakis","startTime":3176.17,"endTime":3179.98,"body":"versions of your book. Sorry,"},{"speaker":"Lefteris Heretakis","startTime":3176.17,"endTime":3179.98,"body":"there are two versions of your"},{"speaker":"Lefteris Heretakis","startTime":3179.98,"endTime":3180.37,"body":"book."},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":3180.79,"endTime":3186.79,"body":"Yes, well, there's"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":3180.79,"endTime":3186.79,"body":"only one which is a different"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":3187.54,"endTime":3195.13,"body":"size, it's 20 centimetres by 25."},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":3187.54,"endTime":3195.13,"body":"Before and then that makes it a"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":3195.13,"endTime":3199.03,"body":"whole lot cheaper to produce."},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":3195.13,"endTime":3199.03,"body":"And I've just produced a few of"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":3199.03,"endTime":3203.41,"body":"those for the family as well."},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":3199.03,"endTime":3203.41,"body":"Right, but like eight or 10"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":3203.68,"endTime":3211.9,"body":"copies, which I've got a little"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":3203.68,"endTime":3211.9,"body":"perfect binder as well. So this"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":3211.9,"endTime":3223.48,"body":"is the magic of the computer,"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":3211.9,"endTime":3223.48,"body":"and the printing process. It's"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":3223.54,"endTime":3229.12,"body":"very easy to produce your book"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":3223.54,"endTime":3229.12,"body":"now. Yes, yes."},{"speaker":"Lefteris Heretakis","startTime":3230.7400000000002,"endTime":3234.4900000000002,"body":"So from all"},{"speaker":"Lefteris Heretakis","startTime":3230.7400000000002,"endTime":3234.4900000000002,"body":"your career, if you could create"},{"speaker":"Lefteris Heretakis","startTime":3235.06,"endTime":3239.98,"body":"the ideal school for graphics,"},{"speaker":"Lefteris Heretakis","startTime":3235.06,"endTime":3239.98,"body":"what would you do? As far as"},{"speaker":"Lefteris Heretakis","startTime":3240.07,"endTime":3242.56,"body":"graphics? The idea, the perfect"},{"speaker":"Lefteris Heretakis","startTime":3240.07,"endTime":3242.56,"body":"one, if there was no"},{"speaker":"Lefteris Heretakis","startTime":3242.56,"endTime":3246.01,"body":"limitations, if there were no"},{"speaker":"Lefteris Heretakis","startTime":3242.56,"endTime":3246.01,"body":"limitations? How would you"},{"speaker":"Lefteris Heretakis","startTime":3246.01,"endTime":3247.75,"body":"create the ideal school?"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":3249.94,"endTime":3253.48,"body":"That's a good"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":3249.94,"endTime":3253.48,"body":"question. Because you know what?"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":3254.7400000000002,"endTime":3264.2200000000003,"body":"I've said in the book, that if I"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":3254.7400000000002,"endTime":3264.2200000000003,"body":"come back, the problem was"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":3264.76,"endTime":3271.27,"body":"removed from the Art School of"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":3264.76,"endTime":3271.27,"body":"the kind that I was trained and"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":3271.27,"endTime":3276.67,"body":"very happy to where you work"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":3271.27,"endTime":3276.67,"body":"alongside a group of us."},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":3282.88,"endTime":3288.01,"body":"But you see each other's work,"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":3282.88,"endTime":3288.01,"body":"you share what's going on. And"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":3288.01,"endTime":3293.53,"body":"you have to expose yourself to"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":3288.01,"endTime":3293.53,"body":"these criticisms. So it's very"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":3293.53,"endTime":3298.33,"body":"much a social and a group"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":3293.53,"endTime":3298.33,"body":"activity. It wasn't my day."},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":3300.37,"endTime":3304.09,"body":"Obviously, for all that. When I"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":3300.37,"endTime":3304.09,"body":"was teaching in Manchester, for"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":3304.09,"endTime":3309.67,"body":"instance, it was still that sort"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":3304.09,"endTime":3309.67,"body":"of approach. But we ran out of"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":3309.67,"endTime":3315.04,"body":"the stage where students are my"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":3309.67,"endTime":3315.04,"body":"two stepdaughters have both been"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":3315.04,"endTime":3322.84,"body":"good individual and they've"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":3315.04,"endTime":3322.84,"body":"taken university courses where"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":3323.38,"endTime":3328.66,"body":"they just pop in for free"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":3323.38,"endTime":3328.66,"body":"lecture. sometimes don't even"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":3328.87,"endTime":3331.78,"body":"pop in for the length of stay"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":3328.87,"endTime":3331.78,"body":"can take it, take them online,"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":3333.28,"endTime":3338.44,"body":"they take the exercise and do"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":3333.28,"endTime":3338.44,"body":"them individually in their own"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":3338.44,"endTime":3346.09,"body":"cell and submit it online. And"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":3338.44,"endTime":3346.09,"body":"with a bit of luck, get feedback"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":3346.09,"endTime":3352.33,"body":"from the sheriff is also online."},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":3346.09,"endTime":3352.33,"body":"But I think it misses an awful"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":3352.33,"endTime":3361.57,"body":"lot of the social stimulation of"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":3352.33,"endTime":3361.57,"body":"working on designs and seeing"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":3361.57,"endTime":3367.78,"body":"what else is happening. extra"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":3361.57,"endTime":3367.78,"body":"stimulation from that kind of"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":3367.78,"endTime":3373.9900000000002,"body":"thing. And I think that's a sad"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":3367.78,"endTime":3373.9900000000002,"body":"thing. So, in the introduction"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":3374.23,"endTime":3380.92,"body":"to the book, in answer to your"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":3374.23,"endTime":3380.92,"body":"question, what would I do? I"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":3380.92,"endTime":3383.9500000000003,"body":"would start an article very much"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":3380.92,"endTime":3383.9500000000003,"body":"like the one that I started."},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":3385.18,"endTime":3390.1,"body":"Because a designer friend of"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":3385.18,"endTime":3390.1,"body":"mine, who is Vietnamese,"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":3391.48,"endTime":3400.78,"body":"Vietnamese boat, refugee, to"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":3391.48,"endTime":3400.78,"body":"Australia, way back in Hong Chi"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":3401.38,"endTime":3404.86,"body":"Hyung did a lot of our jobs."},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":3401.38,"endTime":3404.86,"body":"When he first came in, he"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":3405.55,"endTime":3410.56,"body":"followed his art and went to do"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":3405.55,"endTime":3410.56,"body":"art school, became a designer"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":3411.52,"endTime":3412.51,"body":"and finished up"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":3413.77,"endTime":3418.87,"body":"teaching at Elektra. Curtin"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":3413.77,"endTime":3418.87,"body":"University, and he now has a"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":3418.87,"endTime":3430.3,"body":"PhD. But he's, and he tells me"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":3418.87,"endTime":3430.3,"body":"that I will come back in 50 to"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":3430.3,"endTime":3437.2000000000003,"body":"100 years time. He's convinced"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":3430.3,"endTime":3437.2000000000003,"body":"about but I have just said,"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":3437.2000000000003,"endTime":3440.68,"body":"Well, yes, if I do, I'm gonna"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":3437.2000000000003,"endTime":3440.68,"body":"start on an article just fine"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":3440.68,"endTime":3441.19,"body":"alignment."},{"speaker":"Lefteris Heretakis","startTime":3444.31,"endTime":3448.33,"body":"So what what"},{"speaker":"Lefteris Heretakis","startTime":3444.31,"endTime":3448.33,"body":"did you apply the principles in"},{"speaker":"Lefteris Heretakis","startTime":3448.33,"endTime":3453.73,"body":"your distance learning in May?"},{"speaker":"Lefteris Heretakis","startTime":3448.33,"endTime":3453.73,"body":"And in designing online?"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":3454.36,"endTime":3455.83,"body":"How did you bridge"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":3454.36,"endTime":3455.83,"body":"that?"},{"speaker":"Lefteris Heretakis","startTime":3457.57,"endTime":3460.9900000000002,"body":"Sorry, how"},{"speaker":"Lefteris Heretakis","startTime":3457.57,"endTime":3460.9900000000002,"body":"did you bridge your when you"},{"speaker":"Lefteris Heretakis","startTime":3460.9900000000002,"endTime":3464.7400000000002,"body":"were teaching at a distance"},{"speaker":"Lefteris Heretakis","startTime":3460.9900000000002,"endTime":3464.7400000000002,"body":"learning? Only Master's in"},{"speaker":"Lefteris Heretakis","startTime":3464.7400000000002,"endTime":3467.89,"body":"design online? So What"},{"speaker":"Lefteris Heretakis","startTime":3464.7400000000002,"endTime":3467.89,"body":"strategies did you use from from"},{"speaker":"Lefteris Heretakis","startTime":3467.89,"endTime":3468.79,"body":"your art school?"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":3469.75,"endTime":3473.32,"body":"Well, that is"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":3469.75,"endTime":3473.32,"body":"difficult, because the students"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":3473.7400000000002,"endTime":3479.23,"body":"and I got interested in distance"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":3473.7400000000002,"endTime":3479.23,"body":"learning when I was at Adelaide,"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":3480.19,"endTime":3484.96,"body":"the University of South"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":3480.19,"endTime":3484.96,"body":"Australia, they have a different"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":3484.96,"endTime":3489.31,"body":"system in Australia to the UK"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":3484.96,"endTime":3489.31,"body":"system, UK have the Open"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":3489.31,"endTime":3494.5,"body":"University and they run"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":3489.31,"endTime":3494.5,"body":"practically all of the distance"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":3494.92,"endTime":3500.68,"body":"courses that you can study off"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":3494.92,"endTime":3500.68,"body":"campus in Australia, each of the"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":3500.68,"endTime":3507.19,"body":"major cities like Brisbane and"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":3500.68,"endTime":3507.19,"body":"lead Sydney and so on. One"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":3507.19,"endTime":3515.02,"body":"institution is generally the one"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":3507.19,"endTime":3515.02,"body":"that provides distance education"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":3515.02,"endTime":3520.21,"body":"courses. Now in South Australia,"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":3515.02,"endTime":3520.21,"body":"they had a very good use. It was"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":3520.21,"endTime":3525.43,"body":"superb. And he had some terrific"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":3520.21,"endTime":3525.43,"body":"people about it, because the"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":3525.43,"endTime":3530.14,"body":"University of South Australia"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":3525.43,"endTime":3530.14,"body":"was a combination of COVID"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":3530.17,"endTime":3532.9900000000002,"body":"College of advanced education,"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":3530.17,"endTime":3532.9900000000002,"body":"which was a teacher training"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":3532.9900000000002,"endTime":3540.4,"body":"college. There were some very"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":3532.9900000000002,"endTime":3540.4,"body":"good education there, when they"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":3540.4,"endTime":3545.56,"body":"started up the distance"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":3540.4,"endTime":3545.56,"body":"education which were basically"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":3545.56,"endTime":3552.01,"body":"correspondence course. And those"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":3545.56,"endTime":3552.01,"body":"early days they got very good at"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":3552.01,"endTime":3556.81,"body":"it, the strategy of how you"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":3552.01,"endTime":3556.81,"body":"approach with that long distance"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":3558.52,"endTime":3565.54,"body":"lonely person sitting in their"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":3558.52,"endTime":3565.54,"body":"own game and material through"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":3565.57,"endTime":3573.76,"body":"the post was quite a challenge."},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":3565.57,"endTime":3573.76,"body":"When I went to, I actually sold"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":3575.44,"endTime":3583.33,"body":"the first ma postgraduate design"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":3575.44,"endTime":3583.33,"body":"course through that method,"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":3583.33,"endTime":3589.54,"body":"basically with with books,"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":3583.33,"endTime":3589.54,"body":"readings, tape, recordings, you"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":3589.54,"endTime":3595.63,"body":"know, long works with the"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":3589.54,"endTime":3595.63,"body":"University of South Australia"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":3595.63,"endTime":3601.51,"body":"when I went to Perth, part of"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":3595.63,"endTime":3601.51,"body":"their attraction to me was that"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":3601.51,"endTime":3604.69,"body":"don't have that kind of"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":3601.51,"endTime":3604.69,"body":"experience in Perth is the most"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":3604.7200000000003,"endTime":3614.23,"body":"isolated city on the planet. So"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":3604.7200000000003,"endTime":3614.23,"body":"the distance learning had to be"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":3615.13,"endTime":3619.18,"body":"a major development for and"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":3615.13,"endTime":3619.18,"body":"they'd already got lots of"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":3619.18,"endTime":3623.35,"body":"courses gone away, but of"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":3619.18,"endTime":3623.35,"body":"course, the situation have"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":3623.35,"endTime":3631.7200000000003,"body":"changed because it was 1996. The"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":3623.35,"endTime":3631.7200000000003,"body":"internet was developing Yeah, so"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":3631.75,"endTime":3638.44,"body":"we concentrated on putting this"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":3631.75,"endTime":3638.44,"body":"correspondence into a format"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":3638.44,"endTime":3645.4,"body":"that could be delivered through"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":3638.44,"endTime":3645.4,"body":"the internet. And I didn't find"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":3645.4,"endTime":3652.33,"body":"that kind of thing as attractive"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":3645.4,"endTime":3652.33,"body":"as a challenge. Most of my"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":3652.33,"endTime":3656.92,"body":"colleagues didn't want to get"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":3652.33,"endTime":3656.92,"body":"interested because they thought"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":3656.92,"endTime":3660.34,"body":"you couldn't achieve design in"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":3656.92,"endTime":3660.34,"body":"the classroom and you stood up."},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":3661.93,"endTime":3669.58,"body":"And I didn't know how to do it."},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":3661.93,"endTime":3669.58,"body":"When we, when we started, the"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":3669.61,"endTime":3678.7000000000003,"body":"head of the Distance Education"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":3669.61,"endTime":3678.7000000000003,"body":"Centre, Bruce was always told"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":3678.7000000000003,"endTime":3684.37,"body":"that there was no subject in the"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":3678.7000000000003,"endTime":3684.37,"body":"world that could not be taught"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":3685.03,"endTime":3688.15,"body":"by distance learning. When He"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":3685.03,"endTime":3688.15,"body":"quoted"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":3693.4,"endTime":3697.42,"body":"the land from South Africa"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":3693.4,"endTime":3697.42,"body":"became the president of South"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":3697.42,"endTime":3708.34,"body":"Africa. He thought he was taught"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":3697.42,"endTime":3708.34,"body":"by distance learning to become a"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":3708.34,"endTime":3713.71,"body":"lawyer, and virtually everything"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":3708.34,"endTime":3713.71,"body":"he knew, was through his"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":3713.71,"endTime":3714.43,"body":"imprisonment."},{"speaker":"Lefteris Heretakis","startTime":3714.79,"endTime":3716.98,"body":"Nelson"},{"speaker":"Lefteris Heretakis","startTime":3714.79,"endTime":3716.98,"body":"Mandela. Yeah, that's right."},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":3718.18,"endTime":3722.62,"body":"He was educated"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":3718.18,"endTime":3722.62,"body":"through distance learning"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":3722.62,"endTime":3728.2000000000003,"body":"techniques. So it was a"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":3722.62,"endTime":3728.2000000000003,"body":"challenge. And I found that"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":3728.68,"endTime":3734.08,"body":"while of course it was for both."},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":3728.68,"endTime":3734.08,"body":"And that was a good place to"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":3734.08,"endTime":3738.85,"body":"start. Because you don't have to"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":3734.08,"endTime":3738.85,"body":"teach the basics. These people"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":3738.85,"endTime":3742.27,"body":"have got a degree, they've"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":3738.85,"endTime":3742.27,"body":"probably got, the students were"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":3743.68,"endTime":3749.56,"body":"qualified, and they had some"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":3743.68,"endTime":3749.56,"body":"experience. So it was a"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":3749.56,"endTime":3753.19,"body":"different position. And most of"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":3749.56,"endTime":3753.19,"body":"the Masters"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":3754.3,"endTime":3761.4700000000003,"body":"was much more theoretical. It"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":3754.3,"endTime":3761.4700000000003,"body":"was it was easier in that"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":3761.4700000000003,"endTime":3769.7200000000003,"body":"respect. And I do think it's a"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":3761.4700000000003,"endTime":3769.7200000000003,"body":"problem to teach distance"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":3769.7200000000003,"endTime":3774.9700000000003,"body":"education. to students who don't"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":3769.7200000000003,"endTime":3774.9700000000003,"body":"know anything starting up,"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":3775.0,"endTime":3780.58,"body":"I did expect that with the"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":3775.0,"endTime":3780.58,"body":"typography changing, which I"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":3780.58,"endTime":3790.51,"body":"did, for the last two years,"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":3780.58,"endTime":3790.51,"body":"when I retired in 2001, I, we"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":3790.51,"endTime":3799.75,"body":"did a tour of Australia, four"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":3790.51,"endTime":3799.75,"body":"wheel drive. And then I went"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":3799.75,"endTime":3805.51,"body":"live in Denmark for two or three"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":3799.75,"endTime":3805.51,"body":"years. When I came back to"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":3806.5,"endTime":3810.46,"body":"Australia, I started doing the"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":3806.5,"endTime":3810.46,"body":"online teaching, which I only"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":3810.46,"endTime":3812.77,"body":"gave up in 2019."},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":3814.659,"endTime":3826.599,"body":"So, obviously, it is difficult"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":3814.659,"endTime":3826.599,"body":"and one has to adapt the way you"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":3826.629,"endTime":3830.949,"body":"want your students are not going"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":3826.629,"endTime":3830.949,"body":"to be able to sit in front of"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":3830.949,"endTime":3836.349,"body":"you, and something you can do in"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":3830.949,"endTime":3836.349,"body":"five or 10 minutes."},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":3838.9900000000002,"endTime":3847.0,"body":"With a student you can't do and"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":3838.9900000000002,"endTime":3847.0,"body":"that's a planning to construct"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":3847.0,"endTime":3848.05,"body":"it in a different way."},{"speaker":"Lefteris Heretakis","startTime":3848.5,"endTime":3850.48,"body":"So how did"},{"speaker":"Lefteris Heretakis","startTime":3848.5,"endTime":3850.48,"body":"you What did you change?"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":3853.54,"endTime":3861.76,"body":"Well, I still use the"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":3853.54,"endTime":3861.76,"body":"the writing, typing and printing"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":3862.09,"endTime":3871.27,"body":"model not saying the word"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":3862.09,"endTime":3871.27,"body":"original one because we've moved"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":3871.27,"endTime":3883.18,"body":"on to text messages and email"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":3871.27,"endTime":3883.18,"body":"and a T shirt is DotAsia the"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":3883.42,"endTime":3890.56,"body":"situation was easier to do. And"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":3883.42,"endTime":3890.56,"body":"I also did I got them to work"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":3890.56,"endTime":3897.7000000000003,"body":"with materials again. Using the"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":3890.56,"endTime":3897.7000000000003,"body":"concertina fold tiny book which"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":3897.7000000000003,"endTime":3904.51,"body":"they had to produce and present"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":3897.7000000000003,"endTime":3904.51,"body":"as a photograph both InDesign"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":3905.86,"endTime":3911.86,"body":"PDF but also photograph the"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":3905.86,"endTime":3911.86,"body":"object so we could we could"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":3911.86,"endTime":3917.89,"body":"assess it in the round. So yes,"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":3911.86,"endTime":3917.89,"body":"we don't want to have to do it"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":3917.92,"endTime":3925.54,"body":"with a second hand use of"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":3917.92,"endTime":3925.54,"body":"photography and digital format"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":3929.38,"endTime":3933.25,"body":"not only thing I'm sorry, it"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":3929.38,"endTime":3933.25,"body":"wasn't so easy."},{"speaker":"Lefteris Heretakis","startTime":3933.4,"endTime":3935.2000000000003,"body":"Yes, of"},{"speaker":"Lefteris Heretakis","startTime":3933.4,"endTime":3935.2000000000003,"body":"course, of course, of course."},{"speaker":"Lefteris Heretakis","startTime":3939.7000000000003,"endTime":3943.57,"body":"What would be the principles of"},{"speaker":"Lefteris Heretakis","startTime":3939.7000000000003,"endTime":3943.57,"body":"your new school? What principles"},{"speaker":"Lefteris Heretakis","startTime":3943.57,"endTime":3947.05,"body":"would you would you have in your"},{"speaker":"Lefteris Heretakis","startTime":3943.57,"endTime":3947.05,"body":"in the school that you will"},{"speaker":"Lefteris Heretakis","startTime":3947.05,"endTime":3947.4700000000003,"body":"make?"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":3948.639,"endTime":3953.349,"body":"I think it would be"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":3948.639,"endTime":3953.349,"body":"around teaching typography with"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":3953.349,"endTime":3965.709,"body":"a stick, and I think it would be"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":3953.349,"endTime":3965.709,"body":"still hands on with drawing and"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":3967.2690000000002,"endTime":3972.9990000000003,"body":"typography and a lot of"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":3967.2690000000002,"endTime":3972.9990000000003,"body":"theoretical input on language"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":3973.809,"endTime":3981.549,"body":"and video, communication, really"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":3973.809,"endTime":3981.549,"body":"graphic images. It would be a"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":3981.549,"endTime":3989.409,"body":"lot more theoretical and"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":3981.549,"endTime":3989.409,"body":"cerebral. But I would still"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":3990.9990000000003,"endTime":3998.139,"body":"except to construct in a way"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":3990.9990000000003,"endTime":3998.139,"body":"that would have students who are"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":3998.169,"endTime":4000.539,"body":"getting their hands wet with"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":3998.169,"endTime":4000.539,"body":"meetings?"},{"speaker":"Lefteris Heretakis","startTime":4004.17,"endTime":4006.4500000000003,"body":"And who"},{"speaker":"Lefteris Heretakis","startTime":4004.17,"endTime":4006.4500000000003,"body":"would be the people that would"},{"speaker":"Lefteris Heretakis","startTime":4006.4500000000003,"endTime":4009.78,"body":"influence you, the designers or"},{"speaker":"Lefteris Heretakis","startTime":4006.4500000000003,"endTime":4009.78,"body":"the educators that would"},{"speaker":"Lefteris Heretakis","startTime":4009.78,"endTime":4010.59,"body":"influence you?"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":4011.13,"endTime":4018.2400000000002,"body":"Oh, I think so many?"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":4011.13,"endTime":4018.2400000000002,"body":"So many. I come to know, our"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":4018.2400000000002,"endTime":4022.14,"body":"pleasure quite well. Yeah. I"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":4018.2400000000002,"endTime":4022.14,"body":"just had some"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":4024.6,"endTime":4036.3,"body":"I visited him in his studio, and"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":4024.6,"endTime":4036.3,"body":"he was he was a gentleman. But"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":4036.3,"endTime":4040.65,"body":"he had a vision, and an insight"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":4036.3,"endTime":4040.65,"body":"into how I"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":4043.53,"endTime":4050.94,"body":"think, Alan Fletcher one would"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":4043.53,"endTime":4050.94,"body":"be a person I would look up to."},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":4052.26,"endTime":4059.2200000000003,"body":"But I think my friend in"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":4052.26,"endTime":4059.2200000000003,"body":"Germany, Allah for a year"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":4059.2200000000003,"endTime":4064.59,"body":"younger than me. He's now the"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":4059.2200000000003,"endTime":4064.59,"body":"oldest friend. I have."},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":4066.659,"endTime":4071.339,"body":"I'm afraid many others have gone"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":4066.659,"endTime":4071.339,"body":"by the wayside. But he's the one"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":4071.339,"endTime":4081.959,"body":"who causes etc. and typography."},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":4071.339,"endTime":4081.959,"body":"And I've used a short piece that"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":4082.0190000000002,"endTime":4094.889,"body":"he wrote to me on email. And"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":4082.0190000000002,"endTime":4094.889,"body":"I've closed my book with his his"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":4094.889,"endTime":4101.129,"body":"thoughts about design? Because I"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":4094.889,"endTime":4101.129,"body":"think he is really very smart."},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":4101.909,"endTime":4111.209,"body":"And he put design in through the"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":4101.909,"endTime":4111.209,"body":"context of something which we"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":4111.209,"endTime":4118.409,"body":"do. It's ephemeral, it's gone."},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":4111.209,"endTime":4118.409,"body":"And when our careers are"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":4118.409,"endTime":4127.289,"body":"finished, you know it's not a"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":4118.409,"endTime":4127.289,"body":"scientific discipline. But I"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":4127.289,"endTime":4135.7789999999995,"body":"thought he was representative"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":4127.289,"endTime":4135.7789999999995,"body":"about the way designers IV"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":4135.7789999999995,"endTime":4140.398999999999,"body":"conflict miombo his articulation"},{"speaker":"Lefteris Heretakis","startTime":4144.75,"endTime":4147.179999999999,"body":"any advice"},{"speaker":"Lefteris Heretakis","startTime":4144.75,"endTime":4147.179999999999,"body":"you'd like to leave us with for"},{"speaker":"Lefteris Heretakis","startTime":4147.179999999999,"endTime":4150.33,"body":"students and for designers and"},{"speaker":"Lefteris Heretakis","startTime":4147.179999999999,"endTime":4150.33,"body":"for teachers? What will be your"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":4150.48,"endTime":4161.04,"body":"advice? That's a"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":4150.48,"endTime":4161.04,"body":"tough one. You can do every"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":4161.04,"endTime":4166.53,"body":"effort. I mean, I consider"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":4161.04,"endTime":4166.53,"body":"designers fairly far by night"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":4166.53,"endTime":4174.66,"body":"thing. But even if you do think"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":4166.53,"endTime":4174.66,"body":"of it as an ephemeral and not so"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":4174.66,"endTime":4179.759999999999,"body":"very important measure when I"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":4174.66,"endTime":4179.759999999999,"body":"went to the University of South"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":4179.759999999999,"endTime":4185.339999999999,"body":"Australia, the School of Design"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":4179.759999999999,"endTime":4185.339999999999,"body":"now was very, very difficult and"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":4185.339999999999,"endTime":4189.2699999999995,"body":"very good quality of students."},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":4185.339999999999,"endTime":4189.2699999999995,"body":"The graduates were really"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":4189.509999999999,"endTime":4194.07,"body":"superb. But all the staff"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":4189.509999999999,"endTime":4194.07,"body":"thought design was the most"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":4194.07,"endTime":4198.75,"body":"important thing in the world."},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":4194.07,"endTime":4198.75,"body":"And when I pointed out the"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":4198.75,"endTime":4203.19,"body":"building next door, was the"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":4198.75,"endTime":4203.19,"body":"nursing building, that they"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":4203.25,"endTime":4206.58,"body":"actually do deal with more"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":4203.25,"endTime":4206.58,"body":"important things like life and"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":4206.58,"endTime":4216.33,"body":"death. I was almost limited by"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":4206.58,"endTime":4216.33,"body":"the design. This was sacrilege."},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":4216.33,"endTime":4222.99,"body":"So I've got a sort of, I think,"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":4216.33,"endTime":4222.99,"body":"a healthy respect or disrespect"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":4222.99,"endTime":4228.24,"body":"for design, but at the same time"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":4222.99,"endTime":4228.24,"body":"to do anything. You just got to"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":4228.24,"endTime":4233.219999999999,"body":"put the whole effort into I"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":4228.24,"endTime":4233.219999999999,"body":"found now I've got to put every"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":4233.219999999999,"endTime":4239.5199999999995,"body":"thought every fibre of my being,"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":4233.219999999999,"endTime":4239.5199999999995,"body":"even if it's only a concert"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":4239.879999999999,"endTime":4248.61,"body":"advertisement for the local"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":4239.879999999999,"endTime":4248.61,"body":"school school you have to work"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":4248.61,"endTime":4257.549999999999,"body":"very hard. And the more you know"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":4248.61,"endTime":4257.549999999999,"body":"about communication the better"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":4257.58,"endTime":4265.83,"body":"chance to call for finding the"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":4257.58,"endTime":4265.83,"body":"right kind of idea but you've"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":4265.83,"endTime":4270.03,"body":"also got to have the hands on"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":4265.83,"endTime":4270.03,"body":"experiment, the artistic stuff."},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":4271.7699999999995,"endTime":4283.169999999999,"body":"It's a multi tasking kind of"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":4271.7699999999995,"endTime":4283.169999999999,"body":"activity. As always thank you so"},{"speaker":"Lefteris Heretakis","startTime":4283.169999999999,"endTime":4285.929999999999,"body":"much for"},{"speaker":"Lefteris Heretakis","startTime":4283.169999999999,"endTime":4285.929999999999,"body":"this talk. And then we'll be it"},{"speaker":"Lefteris Heretakis","startTime":4285.929999999999,"endTime":4289.11,"body":"will be that of course for"},{"speaker":"Lefteris Heretakis","startTime":4285.929999999999,"endTime":4289.11,"body":"everything else. Thank you."},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":4290.0689999999995,"endTime":4292.829,"body":"Well, thank you for"},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":4290.0689999999995,"endTime":4292.829,"body":"being interested to meet you."},{"speaker":"Cal Swann","startTime":4298.2,"endTime":4299.46,"body":"Okay, we are"}]}