{"version":"1.0.0","segments":[{"startTime":10.166,"endTime":16.609,"body":"Hello and welcome to Design Education Talk from"},{"startTime":10.166,"endTime":16.609,"body":"the New Art School. Our guest today is Paul"},{"startTime":16.649,"endTime":22.172,"body":"Rogers. Welcome Paul. Thank you, thank you."},{"startTime":16.649,"endTime":22.172,"body":"Nice to be here, thanks for the invitation."},{"startTime":22.692,"endTime":29.236,"body":"It's wonderful to have you here. So tell us"},{"startTime":22.692,"endTime":29.236,"body":"about you and your work. Well, you know, I've"},{"startTime":29.256,"endTime":36.12,"body":"been an illustrator since I graduated from Art"},{"startTime":29.256,"endTime":36.12,"body":"Center College of Design in 1980, so that's"},{"startTime":36.14,"endTime":42.522,"body":"like 44 years now. And... That's all I've ever"},{"startTime":36.14,"endTime":42.522,"body":"done. I've worked as a freelance illustrator."},{"startTime":42.822,"endTime":49.164,"body":"I've done editorial, most of us as we get out"},{"startTime":42.822,"endTime":49.164,"body":"of school, that's the first place we go is"},{"startTime":49.204,"endTime":55.886,"body":"editorial and magazines. What I really wanted"},{"startTime":49.204,"endTime":55.886,"body":"to do was work in records. I'm gonna do record"},{"startTime":55.906,"endTime":64.249,"body":"covers, because it was that LP era was still"},{"startTime":55.906,"endTime":64.249,"body":"on, right? And all those beautiful illustrations"},{"startTime":64.269,"endTime":69.534,"body":"that were done in the 70s were big inspirations"},{"startTime":64.269,"endTime":69.534,"body":"to me. And I realized quickly when I started"},{"startTime":69.554,"endTime":75.696,"body":"taking my portfolio around to the record labels,"},{"startTime":69.554,"endTime":75.696,"body":"there were about 10 or 12 record labels here"},{"startTime":75.716,"endTime":82.237,"body":"in Los Angeles where I live. And everybody was"},{"startTime":75.716,"endTime":82.237,"body":"very, very nice to me, but I quickly realized"},{"startTime":82.357,"endTime":88.599,"body":"I had a very nice art school portfolio, but"},{"startTime":82.357,"endTime":88.599,"body":"I did not have a portfolio that was gonna get"},{"startTime":88.639,"endTime":96.541,"body":"me assignments because the work I was doing"},{"startTime":88.639,"endTime":96.541,"body":"was kind of a sad invitation of the people"},{"startTime":96.641,"endTime":102.512,"body":"I admired. Right? And my portfolio was a little"},{"startTime":96.641,"endTime":102.512,"body":"bit all over the place. Yes, because I just"},{"startTime":102.532,"endTime":105.753,"body":"came out of school and I had this assignment"},{"startTime":102.532,"endTime":105.753,"body":"and this assignment. I wasn't really directed"},{"startTime":105.813,"endTime":115.378,"body":"towards one kind of thing. And and as I said,"},{"startTime":105.813,"endTime":115.378,"body":"people were nice. And in that in that era,"},{"startTime":116.398,"endTime":122.221,"body":"like the illustration and design industry in"},{"startTime":116.398,"endTime":122.221,"body":"Los Angeles was kind of like a small town,"},{"startTime":122.621,"endTime":125.858,"body":"you know, like everybody knew each other. And"},{"startTime":122.621,"endTime":125.858,"body":"once you met one person, they tell you, oh,"},{"startTime":125.878,"endTime":129.319,"body":"you should go see this guy, you should go see"},{"startTime":125.878,"endTime":129.319,"body":"this guy. But what I realized quickly was,"},{"startTime":129.899,"endTime":135.461,"body":"I'm gonna have to make a new portfolio. I'm"},{"startTime":129.899,"endTime":135.461,"body":"gonna have to make new pieces that raise the"},{"startTime":135.501,"endTime":140.983,"body":"level of what I was doing in school, because"},{"startTime":135.501,"endTime":140.983,"body":"now I'm out here with the guys, all my heroes."},{"startTime":141.003,"endTime":147.685,"body":"Like when I was getting out of school and looking"},{"startTime":141.003,"endTime":147.685,"body":"around, the illustrators that I knew, they"},{"startTime":147.725,"endTime":152.58,"body":"all drove. drove nice cars, you know, they had"},{"startTime":147.725,"endTime":152.58,"body":"mortgages on a house and they were putting"},{"startTime":152.6,"endTime":157.182,"body":"their kids through college. And I just wanted"},{"startTime":152.6,"endTime":157.182,"body":"to be one of those people, right? I just wanted"},{"startTime":157.202,"endTime":164.906,"body":"to get into that world any way I could. And"},{"startTime":157.202,"endTime":164.906,"body":"I had no backup plan. My thing was like, I'm"},{"startTime":164.926,"endTime":170.189,"body":"going to go out here and make, make illustrations"},{"startTime":164.926,"endTime":170.189,"body":"and get somehow pay my bills every month. I"},{"startTime":170.229,"endTime":176.473,"body":"was crazy, right? But it was possible. And as"},{"startTime":170.229,"endTime":176.473,"body":"I said, it was a small town kind of atmosphere"},{"startTime":176.973,"endTime":181.16,"body":"and people were helpful. You know, and so if"},{"startTime":176.973,"endTime":181.16,"body":"you did a new piece, you could call them up"},{"startTime":181.3,"endTime":186.804,"body":"and take it down and show it to them. You know,"},{"startTime":181.3,"endTime":186.804,"body":"people who were encouraging, you know. And"},{"startTime":186.945,"endTime":193.17,"body":"I had two instructors at Art Center, Dave Willardson"},{"startTime":186.945,"endTime":193.17,"body":"and Charlie White. They were like the airbrush"},{"startTime":193.35,"endTime":198.414,"body":"kings of Los Angeles. At a time when airbrush"},{"startTime":193.35,"endTime":198.414,"body":"was the, every illustrator wanted to work with"},{"startTime":198.474,"endTime":201.757,"body":"airbrush, right? If you worked with a brush,"},{"startTime":198.474,"endTime":201.757,"body":"you were corny, you were old fashioned, you"},{"startTime":201.777,"endTime":207.701,"body":"know. And they were very, very nice. And they"},{"startTime":201.777,"endTime":207.701,"body":"started to give me little assignments, you"},{"startTime":207.721,"endTime":211.535,"body":"know. Here, can you do a storyboard? We got"},{"startTime":207.721,"endTime":211.535,"body":"this music video coming up. That was a new"},{"startTime":211.575,"endTime":216.197,"body":"thing. MTV was brand new. Hey, can you do some"},{"startTime":211.575,"endTime":216.197,"body":"lettering on this thing? We got this other,"},{"startTime":216.257,"endTime":219.738,"body":"and so they started giving me a little bit,"},{"startTime":216.257,"endTime":219.738,"body":"enough to keep me afloat, right? They were"},{"startTime":219.779,"endTime":224.661,"body":"freelance jobs. I didn't work in their studio,"},{"startTime":219.779,"endTime":224.661,"body":"but I hung around there a lot. And I learned"},{"startTime":224.741,"endTime":230.083,"body":"so much from those two guys about how to be"},{"startTime":224.741,"endTime":230.083,"body":"a professional, how to prepare a sketch for"},{"startTime":230.103,"endTime":235.605,"body":"a client, how to talk to a client on a phone,"},{"startTime":230.103,"endTime":235.605,"body":"right? And so it was like, I was just like"},{"startTime":235.645,"endTime":240.547,"body":"this. young, naive guy who wanted to get into"},{"startTime":235.645,"endTime":240.547,"body":"the industry, and people just helped me everywhere"},{"startTime":240.587,"endTime":246.269,"body":"I went, right? And so eventually, you know,"},{"startTime":240.587,"endTime":246.269,"body":"when you first got out of school, the hardest"},{"startTime":246.309,"endTime":252.772,"body":"thing is no one knows you. And trying to build"},{"startTime":246.309,"endTime":252.772,"body":"a reputation some way, doing some work that"},{"startTime":252.812,"endTime":262.416,"body":"people could see, and then spreading out your"},{"startTime":252.812,"endTime":262.416,"body":"sort of, the people that knew you and would"},{"startTime":262.876,"endTime":267.47,"body":"think you were all right, you started to get"},{"startTime":262.876,"endTime":267.47,"body":"assignments, right? I always tell my students"},{"startTime":267.51,"endTime":271.873,"body":"now that the hardest time is when you first"},{"startTime":267.51,"endTime":271.873,"body":"get out of school because nobody knows you."},{"startTime":272.533,"endTime":277.195,"body":"And the only jobs you're going to get are jobs"},{"startTime":272.533,"endTime":277.195,"body":"that you reach out to somebody for, right?"},{"startTime":278.316,"endTime":284.119,"body":"But over time, more and more people learn who"},{"startTime":278.316,"endTime":284.119,"body":"you are, know the kind of work you do, and"},{"startTime":284.139,"endTime":288.262,"body":"are thinking of you even though you don't know"},{"startTime":284.139,"endTime":288.262,"body":"it. And you start to get assignments from places"},{"startTime":288.302,"endTime":293.865,"body":"that you hadn't reached out and tried to generate"},{"startTime":288.302,"endTime":293.865,"body":"the work yourself. So that's what I've been"},{"startTime":293.885,"endTime":303.221,"body":"doing. And so... About 20 years ago, Anne Field,"},{"startTime":293.885,"endTime":303.221,"body":"who's the chair of the illustration department"},{"startTime":303.241,"endTime":309.583,"body":"at Art Center, Art Center College of Design"},{"startTime":303.241,"endTime":309.583,"body":"here in Pasadena. And Anne is English. She"},{"startTime":309.623,"endTime":315.706,"body":"and her husband, the great Clive Piercy, moved"},{"startTime":309.623,"endTime":315.706,"body":"from London to Los Angeles and liked it and"},{"startTime":315.746,"endTime":322.809,"body":"stayed, right? And so, Clive and Anne and I"},{"startTime":315.746,"endTime":322.809,"body":"have been friends since they got here, essentially"},{"startTime":322.829,"endTime":329.807,"body":"the 80s sometimes. And, um... Uh, uh, Anne became"},{"startTime":322.829,"endTime":329.807,"body":"the chair at art center college of design about"},{"startTime":329.847,"endTime":333.809,"body":"20 years ago. And she called me up and said,"},{"startTime":329.847,"endTime":333.809,"body":"do you want to teach a class? And I was like,"},{"startTime":334.329,"endTime":339.691,"body":"yeah, sure. You know, I, I loved art school."},{"startTime":334.329,"endTime":339.691,"body":"You know, when I, when I got into art school,"},{"startTime":339.711,"endTime":345.173,"body":"the first day sitting in that room, I liked"},{"startTime":339.711,"endTime":345.173,"body":"the way the room smelled. I loved drawing from"},{"startTime":345.193,"endTime":351.176,"body":"a model. I liked the people I met. And so, um,"},{"startTime":345.193,"endTime":351.176,"body":"so when Anne asked me if I would teach a class,"},{"startTime":351.276,"endTime":357.806,"body":"I said I would. And then it just eventually"},{"startTime":351.276,"endTime":357.806,"body":"kind of grew into a. more and more involvement"},{"startTime":357.886,"endTime":362.347,"body":"over the years. So I've been teaching at Art"},{"startTime":357.886,"endTime":362.347,"body":"Center now, they have this thing called full-time"},{"startTime":362.427,"endTime":367.489,"body":"faculty, which means you teach three classes"},{"startTime":362.427,"endTime":367.489,"body":"a semester. So it's not, you still have time"},{"startTime":367.509,"endTime":371.03,"body":"for your career, you still have time to be doing"},{"startTime":367.509,"endTime":371.03,"body":"illustrations. And so that's what I've been"},{"startTime":371.05,"endTime":379.472,"body":"doing the last 20 years. Excellent. Excellent,"},{"startTime":371.05,"endTime":379.472,"body":"so you told us how you got into teaching. Yeah,"},{"startTime":379.512,"endTime":387.023,"body":"yeah. And you know, it was interesting because"},{"startTime":379.512,"endTime":387.023,"body":"when I got into teaching, The illustration"},{"startTime":387.063,"endTime":395.228,"body":"department was changing. As a student, illustration"},{"startTime":387.063,"endTime":395.228,"body":"was editorial illustration. Everybody I went"},{"startTime":395.248,"endTime":403.594,"body":"to school with, we all wanted to be illustrators"},{"startTime":395.248,"endTime":403.594,"body":"for magazines, and like me, record labels,"},{"startTime":403.634,"endTime":408.858,"body":"but some advertising. We knew money was in advertising,"},{"startTime":403.634,"endTime":408.858,"body":"but we all were aiming for the editorial market."},{"startTime":408.978,"endTime":412.76,"body":"That's where we made your reputation, and that"},{"startTime":408.978,"endTime":412.76,"body":"was where you wanted your work to be seen."},{"startTime":415.562,"endTime":422.645,"body":"When I came back to start teaching at Art Center"},{"startTime":415.562,"endTime":422.645,"body":"20 years ago, it had changed to an entertainment-based"},{"startTime":423.305,"endTime":429.447,"body":"department. It was maybe 50-50. Half the students"},{"startTime":423.305,"endTime":429.447,"body":"in the department wanted to go to work at Pixar"},{"startTime":429.487,"endTime":435.11,"body":"or Disney, and the other half were thinking"},{"startTime":429.487,"endTime":435.11,"body":"of a traditional illustration career or other"},{"startTime":435.15,"endTime":441.833,"body":"things like surface design or motion design."},{"startTime":435.15,"endTime":441.833,"body":"There's more options now in illustration career"},{"startTime":441.853,"endTime":448.62,"body":"than there was in the 70s when I was in school."},{"startTime":441.853,"endTime":448.62,"body":"And so Anne asked, would I teach a class in"},{"startTime":448.701,"endTime":453.925,"body":"the, I taught a class called illustration design,"},{"startTime":448.701,"endTime":453.925,"body":"which is what I do. That kind of mix of illustration"},{"startTime":453.965,"endTime":459.77,"body":"and graphic design kind of together. And, but"},{"startTime":453.965,"endTime":459.77,"body":"she also said, I think you could be helpful"},{"startTime":459.83,"endTime":466.695,"body":"in the entertainment department. Because I had"},{"startTime":459.83,"endTime":466.695,"body":"done some freelance projects for feature animation,"},{"startTime":466.935,"endTime":473.201,"body":"right? Like I did a poster for Brad Bird when"},{"startTime":466.935,"endTime":473.201,"body":"he was making the Incredibles. Brad and I've"},{"startTime":473.221,"endTime":478.101,"body":"been friends for a long time. He, so he'd seen"},{"startTime":473.221,"endTime":478.101,"body":"my work and called me in and I've been, so"},{"startTime":478.181,"endTime":482.084,"body":"every now and then he has something, he says,"},{"startTime":478.181,"endTime":482.084,"body":"can you do this for me? So I had done a little"},{"startTime":482.124,"endTime":487.449,"body":"bit in that world, but I wasn't really an entertainment"},{"startTime":482.124,"endTime":487.449,"body":"guy, right? So in the last 20 years or so,"},{"startTime":487.489,"endTime":492.514,"body":"I've been more and more involved in just looking"},{"startTime":487.489,"endTime":492.514,"body":"at that world, how do people make a living?"},{"startTime":493.014,"endTime":499.1,"body":"And how do, how can I help train students to,"},{"startTime":493.014,"endTime":499.1,"body":"to get into that world and make a living? And"},{"startTime":499.12,"endTime":503.547,"body":"the one thing I really came down to is like,"},{"startTime":499.12,"endTime":503.547,"body":"The thing that they need to be able to do is"},{"startTime":503.667,"endTime":508.45,"body":"make good pictures, right? Tell a story in a"},{"startTime":503.667,"endTime":508.45,"body":"picture, you know, tell a story with clarity,"},{"startTime":509.051,"endTime":513.654,"body":"tell a story with some finesse and some style,"},{"startTime":509.051,"endTime":513.654,"body":"right? And it's not that different from illustration"},{"startTime":513.714,"endTime":518.878,"body":"really, right? It's, you know, there's a different"},{"startTime":513.714,"endTime":518.878,"body":"sort of machine they're going into, but the"},{"startTime":518.918,"endTime":528.164,"body":"whole thing is pretty much a kind of a different"},{"startTime":518.918,"endTime":528.164,"body":"world than, than what I was aiming for. But"},{"startTime":528.504,"endTime":534.603,"body":"the basics were all the same, you know? So that's"},{"startTime":528.504,"endTime":534.603,"body":"still the thing I do now, is I teach in the"},{"startTime":534.683,"endTime":539.985,"body":"entertainment track of the department, and I"},{"startTime":534.683,"endTime":539.985,"body":"teach in the other thing, with the publishing"},{"startTime":540.045,"endTime":547.469,"body":"and editorial kind of things. That's excellent,"},{"startTime":540.045,"endTime":547.469,"body":"that's excellent. So how has illustration teaching"},{"startTime":548.369,"endTime":555.152,"body":"changed in those 20 years? And how have the"},{"startTime":548.369,"endTime":555.152,"body":"students changed also? Well, you know, there's"},{"startTime":555.292,"endTime":562.975,"body":"great, great dependence on technology now, right?"},{"startTime":555.292,"endTime":562.975,"body":"And I mean, you know, my Photoshop skills are"},{"startTime":563.376,"endTime":567.438,"body":"minimal, right? I would do all my work. You"},{"startTime":563.376,"endTime":567.438,"body":"know, I used to work with an airbrush and I"},{"startTime":567.478,"endTime":573.301,"body":"used to work with paint and ink. And then when,"},{"startTime":567.478,"endTime":573.301,"body":"when Photoshop and Illustrator Adobe Creative"},{"startTime":573.361,"endTime":578.644,"body":"Suite, when that came in, I realized I was going"},{"startTime":573.361,"endTime":578.644,"body":"to have to change, right? I was going to have"},{"startTime":578.684,"endTime":582.566,"body":"to adapt and figure out how to work in this"},{"startTime":578.684,"endTime":582.566,"body":"new digital world, if I was going to keep my"},{"startTime":582.606,"endTime":589.49,"body":"career going. And, um, and so that process wasn't"},{"startTime":582.606,"endTime":589.49,"body":"that difficult for me. Cause I just tried to"},{"startTime":589.53,"endTime":595.153,"body":"figure out, I figured out how can I do what"},{"startTime":589.53,"endTime":595.153,"body":"I'm doing with paint with this digital program?"},{"startTime":595.193,"endTime":599.855,"body":"And I, and I just felt, I felt comfortable in"},{"startTime":595.193,"endTime":599.855,"body":"illustrator and I more comfortable in illustrator"},{"startTime":599.875,"endTime":604.298,"body":"than I did in Photoshop. Like to me, to me,"},{"startTime":599.875,"endTime":604.298,"body":"illustrator was like swimming in a pool and"},{"startTime":604.418,"endTime":609.16,"body":"swimming pool. And, and, and Photoshop was like"},{"startTime":604.418,"endTime":609.16,"body":"swimming in the ocean, right? It was like,"},{"startTime":609.18,"endTime":614.583,"body":"it was too big. It was too, it's too much danger"},{"startTime":609.18,"endTime":614.583,"body":"things, you know, and, um, and so, so I figured"},{"startTime":614.603,"endTime":619.718,"body":"out illustrator with my students, they have"},{"startTime":614.603,"endTime":619.718,"body":"great Photoshop skills, most of Right. But"},{"startTime":619.738,"endTime":624.642,"body":"they're still struggling with that thing, trying"},{"startTime":619.738,"endTime":624.642,"body":"to make a picture with clarity. So they have"},{"startTime":624.703,"endTime":630.548,"body":"murky values. They have, they have, uh, indistinct"},{"startTime":624.703,"endTime":630.548,"body":"foreground, middle ground background. And so,"},{"startTime":630.728,"endTime":634.391,"body":"so things like that, we're just making pictures,"},{"startTime":630.728,"endTime":634.391,"body":"right? But I tell them all the first day, they"},{"startTime":634.471,"endTime":638.835,"body":"all have better Photoshop skills than I do,"},{"startTime":634.471,"endTime":638.835,"body":"but I'm going to try to help them make better"},{"startTime":638.855,"endTime":643.819,"body":"pictures and tell their stories in a more clear"},{"startTime":638.855,"endTime":643.819,"body":"way. Right. So there's this great dependence"},{"startTime":643.939,"endTime":652.113,"body":"on computers and computer tricks. rather than"},{"startTime":643.939,"endTime":652.113,"body":"a great dependence on your ability to draw."},{"startTime":652.594,"endTime":659.42,"body":"Right? And I think especially we've had, you"},{"startTime":652.594,"endTime":659.42,"body":"know, with COVID, we had students taking their"},{"startTime":659.46,"endTime":667.206,"body":"first art school classes in their childhood"},{"startTime":659.46,"endTime":667.206,"body":"bedroom on Zoom, you know? And the feeling"},{"startTime":667.246,"endTime":671.15,"body":"of drawing in your bedroom couldn't have been"},{"startTime":667.246,"endTime":671.15,"body":"the same as the feeling I had sitting in the"},{"startTime":671.17,"endTime":675.493,"body":"classroom drawing from a life model with all"},{"startTime":671.17,"endTime":675.493,"body":"my friends around me and everyone kind of competitive."},{"startTime":676.062,"endTime":682.403,"body":"And also kind of that fear of life and death,"},{"startTime":676.062,"endTime":682.403,"body":"every drawing you think is gonna, people are"},{"startTime":682.423,"endTime":690.586,"body":"gonna judge me, I gotta pay attention. And so"},{"startTime":682.423,"endTime":690.586,"body":"what I learned when I was in school is if you"},{"startTime":690.686,"endTime":696.327,"body":"figure out, learning to draw in paint is difficult,"},{"startTime":690.686,"endTime":696.327,"body":"right? It takes time. But if you learn to draw"},{"startTime":696.387,"endTime":702.549,"body":"in paint, then when software comes along, technology"},{"startTime":696.387,"endTime":702.549,"body":"comes along, you can figure out the technology"},{"startTime":702.669,"endTime":708.734,"body":"and take your skills into that world, right?"},{"startTime":702.669,"endTime":708.734,"body":"But I see a lot of students now who are relying"},{"startTime":708.774,"endTime":715.916,"body":"on technology first. And they don't always realize"},{"startTime":708.774,"endTime":715.916,"body":"that their magic power is going to be their"},{"startTime":715.956,"endTime":721.338,"body":"ability to draw. And no matter what happens"},{"startTime":715.956,"endTime":721.338,"body":"later, if they can draw, then they're going"},{"startTime":721.358,"endTime":727.12,"body":"to have a higher level of sophistication when"},{"startTime":721.358,"endTime":727.12,"body":"they're looking at images that come their way"},{"startTime":727.6,"endTime":732.681,"body":"through technology or how to adjust an image"},{"startTime":727.6,"endTime":732.681,"body":"or this whole AI thing. And are we going to"},{"startTime":732.701,"endTime":737.877,"body":"be seeing? AI images, well, in the hands of"},{"startTime":732.701,"endTime":737.877,"body":"an artist, maybe an AI image can be improved,"},{"startTime":738.077,"endTime":743.66,"body":"right? And, but they have to have that thing"},{"startTime":738.077,"endTime":743.66,"body":"in their head, like what would I do to fix"},{"startTime":743.72,"endTime":747.623,"body":"this? They have to be able to imagine the thing"},{"startTime":743.72,"endTime":747.623,"body":"in their head, the same way as when you sit"},{"startTime":747.663,"endTime":751.646,"body":"down with a blank piece of paper and you have"},{"startTime":747.663,"endTime":751.646,"body":"to imagine, what am I going to do? You have"},{"startTime":751.666,"endTime":756.289,"body":"to be able to imagine it and then get it on"},{"startTime":751.666,"endTime":756.289,"body":"paper or get it on the screen so people can"},{"startTime":756.349,"endTime":759.631,"body":"see it, right? So, you know,"},{"startTime":762.978,"endTime":769.52,"body":"to manipulate the digital world, right? To work"},{"startTime":762.978,"endTime":769.52,"body":"in the digital skills and to make images. But"},{"startTime":770.821,"endTime":776.364,"body":"I'd worry about them not taking enough drawing"},{"startTime":770.821,"endTime":776.364,"body":"classes, you know, and like those things will"},{"startTime":776.384,"endTime":781.066,"body":"show me something they're working on. And I'm"},{"startTime":776.384,"endTime":781.066,"body":"like, yeah, that guy's foot, that right foot"},{"startTime":781.166,"endTime":785.268,"body":"actually looks like a left foot the way you"},{"startTime":781.166,"endTime":785.268,"body":"drew it, right? And then when I say it, they"},{"startTime":785.328,"endTime":791.37,"body":"see it, but they did not see it when they were"},{"startTime":785.328,"endTime":791.37,"body":"looking at it, you know? And I think a lot"},{"startTime":791.41,"endTime":796.651,"body":"of that is just years and years of drawing and"},{"startTime":791.41,"endTime":796.651,"body":"looking at, you know, and then they have, they"},{"startTime":796.692,"endTime":802.893,"body":"haven't done that yet. So at Art Center, we"},{"startTime":796.692,"endTime":802.893,"body":"have costume and live model workshops, which"},{"startTime":802.953,"endTime":807.475,"body":"are in addition to your classes. There's one"},{"startTime":802.953,"endTime":807.475,"body":"every day or two or three a day, and you can"},{"startTime":807.515,"endTime":813.176,"body":"figure out your schedule and then go in and"},{"startTime":807.515,"endTime":813.176,"body":"draw from a model. And I just tell students,"},{"startTime":813.196,"endTime":816.737,"body":"you gotta be doing that. You gotta just take"},{"startTime":813.196,"endTime":816.737,"body":"that like a class and go every single day,"},{"startTime":816.757,"endTime":820.94,"body":"because... What you're trying to do is build"},{"startTime":816.757,"endTime":820.94,"body":"up your drawing skills, your chops, your ability"},{"startTime":820.96,"endTime":826.803,"body":"to see and imagine, and your ability to get"},{"startTime":820.96,"endTime":826.803,"body":"ideas on the paper. And some do, you know,"},{"startTime":826.843,"endTime":835.444,"body":"some students do, but not enough, not enough."},{"startTime":826.843,"endTime":835.444,"body":"Yeah. So where do you see the future of employment"},{"startTime":835.464,"endTime":843.25,"body":"for these students in light of course of today's"},{"startTime":835.464,"endTime":843.25,"body":"AI technology? Well, the AI thing is a weird"},{"startTime":843.29,"endTime":849.495,"body":"thing. No one knows right now, right? I mean,"},{"startTime":843.29,"endTime":849.495,"body":"right now it's all, you know, it can't copyright"},{"startTime":849.555,"endTime":857.954,"body":"an AI image. And so, you know, I get I get illustration"},{"startTime":849.555,"endTime":857.954,"body":"assignments and the contract says that I will"},{"startTime":857.974,"endTime":862.618,"body":"not use AI in any part of my process because"},{"startTime":857.974,"endTime":862.618,"body":"they don't want to be hung up with the copyright"},{"startTime":862.638,"endTime":866.762,"body":"later. If I'm selling a copyright through an"},{"startTime":862.638,"endTime":866.762,"body":"image to a client, they want to know they're"},{"startTime":866.782,"endTime":871.366,"body":"buying the copyright. So right now, AI is not"},{"startTime":866.782,"endTime":871.366,"body":"really an issue in that world, right? And I"},{"startTime":871.406,"endTime":876.35,"body":"was on a crew for a feature animation and someone"},{"startTime":871.406,"endTime":876.35,"body":"brought some, it was one of those Zoom calls"},{"startTime":876.37,"endTime":882.035,"body":"where everyone's checking in and showing what"},{"startTime":876.37,"endTime":882.035,"body":"their progress is, what they've done up to"},{"startTime":882.055,"endTime":887.406,"body":"this stage. And one guy had this AI thing. And"},{"startTime":882.055,"endTime":887.406,"body":"he's, it was very, very preliminary. He had"},{"startTime":887.427,"endTime":891.608,"body":"a bunch of AI ideas and he was going to work"},{"startTime":887.427,"endTime":891.608,"body":"on those. And he said, so I'm going to work"},{"startTime":891.648,"endTime":895.81,"body":"on this and change it to, you know, to my own"},{"startTime":891.648,"endTime":895.81,"body":"thing. And the production manager cut in and"},{"startTime":895.89,"endTime":900.692,"body":"said, uh, the studio policy at this time is"},{"startTime":895.89,"endTime":900.692,"body":"no AI on anything, not even sketches, ideas,"},{"startTime":900.832,"endTime":905.714,"body":"preliminary stuff. So that made me just be like,"},{"startTime":900.832,"endTime":905.714,"body":"okay, the copyright world is still scaring"},{"startTime":906.174,"endTime":911.577,"body":"off the ability for that, right? But you know,"},{"startTime":906.174,"endTime":911.577,"body":"we keep seeing more and more crappy AI images"},{"startTime":911.617,"endTime":916.674,"body":"every time you open your computer. Right. Yeah."},{"startTime":911.617,"endTime":916.674,"body":"And if you do a search for something, you're"},{"startTime":916.694,"endTime":921.816,"body":"going to get half of those images. Could be"},{"startTime":916.694,"endTime":921.816,"body":"AI images, right? And if you don't have the"},{"startTime":921.836,"endTime":927.737,"body":"ability to see that and realize this may not"},{"startTime":921.836,"endTime":927.737,"body":"be right, it's like just because it's on your"},{"startTime":927.757,"endTime":931.538,"body":"computer doesn't mean it's true, right? We've"},{"startTime":927.757,"endTime":931.538,"body":"all seen Google searches giving you the wrong"},{"startTime":931.558,"endTime":937.96,"body":"information when you search something. So the"},{"startTime":931.558,"endTime":937.96,"body":"AI thing, I don't really know the answer. No"},{"startTime":938.04,"endTime":946.794,"body":"one knows the answer. My worry is it'll do the"},{"startTime":938.04,"endTime":946.794,"body":"same thing Revolution did. Like when Illustrator"},{"startTime":946.834,"endTime":953.916,"body":"and Photoshop came on the scene, we saw a lot"},{"startTime":946.834,"endTime":953.916,"body":"of crappy images being used in place of illustration,"},{"startTime":954.497,"endTime":959.518,"body":"right? Because they were acceptable. They were"},{"startTime":954.497,"endTime":959.518,"body":"acceptable to the guy who was writing the checks,"},{"startTime":959.998,"endTime":964.88,"body":"right, the company who's watching the budget"},{"startTime":959.998,"endTime":964.88,"body":"or whatever. They realized, well, you know,"},{"startTime":964.92,"endTime":969.941,"body":"we don't have to call an Illustrator in anymore"},{"startTime":964.92,"endTime":969.941,"body":"for this tiny little spot illustration that's"},{"startTime":969.961,"endTime":974.234,"body":"gonna be in the back of the newspaper. And,"},{"startTime":969.961,"endTime":974.234,"body":"and, you know, for me, when I got out of school,"},{"startTime":974.254,"endTime":978.916,"body":"man, that was my bread and butter. I showed"},{"startTime":974.254,"endTime":978.916,"body":"up and did stuff, silhouette illustrations."},{"startTime":978.936,"endTime":983.738,"body":"We need a drawing of a car. We need a drawing"},{"startTime":978.936,"endTime":983.738,"body":"of a hotel, you know? And it was, it wasn't"},{"startTime":983.778,"endTime":987.78,"body":"great work, but you know, paid the bills and"},{"startTime":983.778,"endTime":987.78,"body":"you showed up every day with it. You were reliable."},{"startTime":987.82,"endTime":992.362,"body":"You can make it, you could get going, right?"},{"startTime":987.82,"endTime":992.362,"body":"You didn't have to get a second job. So my"},{"startTime":992.442,"endTime":998.104,"body":"worry is, you know, so, you know, when I got"},{"startTime":992.442,"endTime":998.104,"body":"out of school, you had to have a certain amount"},{"startTime":998.144,"endTime":1004.908,"body":"of finesse and expertise. just to get ink out"},{"startTime":998.144,"endTime":1004.908,"body":"of the bottle onto the paper the way you wanted"},{"startTime":1004.968,"endTime":1010.132,"body":"it, right? When illustrator showed up, and an"},{"startTime":1004.968,"endTime":1010.132,"body":"art director sitting in an office who needed"},{"startTime":1010.152,"endTime":1014.615,"body":"a little illustration, a silhouette illustration,"},{"startTime":1010.152,"endTime":1014.615,"body":"they couldn't do it, right? I mean, they had"},{"startTime":1014.675,"endTime":1020.399,"body":"no chance of doing that. They couldn't get ink"},{"startTime":1014.675,"endTime":1020.399,"body":"out of the bottle. Now the software, clip art,"},{"startTime":1020.439,"endTime":1026.783,"body":"all these different things, boom, they got something"},{"startTime":1020.439,"endTime":1026.783,"body":"that's crappy. It's acceptable. It's not art."},{"startTime":1026.863,"endTime":1032.687,"body":"It's okay. It's fine. And they use it, right?"},{"startTime":1026.863,"endTime":1032.687,"body":"So... So the technology replaced the lower"},{"startTime":1032.727,"endTime":1042.232,"body":"level of illustration and also lowered the bar"},{"startTime":1032.727,"endTime":1042.232,"body":"of mediocrity to an acceptable level. So more"},{"startTime":1042.252,"endTime":1049.976,"body":"and more we're seeing images that were not acceptable"},{"startTime":1042.252,"endTime":1049.976,"body":"in the past, acceptable today, right? And I"},{"startTime":1049.996,"endTime":1054.058,"body":"see it all the time. I saw an ad yesterday in"},{"startTime":1049.996,"endTime":1054.058,"body":"the New York Times, a full page ad for some"},{"startTime":1054.098,"endTime":1060.902,"body":"investment company, and it was just two-tone"},{"startTime":1054.098,"endTime":1060.902,"body":"kind of, you know, stylized drawing. And it"},{"startTime":1060.922,"endTime":1065.263,"body":"had no heart and it had no inspiration. And"},{"startTime":1060.922,"endTime":1065.263,"body":"it was like, I was thinking, I wonder what"},{"startTime":1065.283,"endTime":1070.326,"body":"they paid the illustrator. Did they do it in"},{"startTime":1065.283,"endTime":1070.326,"body":"house? There's a no illustrator involved. And"},{"startTime":1070.466,"endTime":1075.548,"body":"what did they pay for that space in the New"},{"startTime":1070.466,"endTime":1075.548,"body":"York times? Somehow that the space in the New"},{"startTime":1075.568,"endTime":1081.21,"body":"York times is valuable, but the illustration,"},{"startTime":1075.568,"endTime":1081.21,"body":"the level of quality illustration was not valuable"},{"startTime":1081.33,"endTime":1086.152,"body":"to the people involved, you know, cause they"},{"startTime":1081.33,"endTime":1086.152,"body":"wouldn't have run that way. Right. So my worry"},{"startTime":1086.172,"endTime":1093.987,"body":"with AI is like, we get worse work. we see even"},{"startTime":1086.172,"endTime":1093.987,"body":"crappier stuff, the bar of mediocrity is lowered"},{"startTime":1094.627,"endTime":1100.229,"body":"to a spot where we see even less good work as"},{"startTime":1094.627,"endTime":1100.229,"body":"we look through the newspaper and magazines."},{"startTime":1100.289,"endTime":1104.81,"body":"I mean, when I was a kid, you know, looking"},{"startTime":1100.289,"endTime":1104.81,"body":"at magazines and newspapers was inspiration"},{"startTime":1104.85,"endTime":1110.591,"body":"to me, right? I mean, most of us, comic books"},{"startTime":1104.85,"endTime":1110.591,"body":"and magazines, that's where we saw our inspiration."},{"startTime":1111.031,"endTime":1114.232,"body":"If you were just a kid who didn't, we didn't"},{"startTime":1111.031,"endTime":1114.232,"body":"have a bunch of art books in my house or anything,"},{"startTime":1114.432,"endTime":1120.555,"body":"you know? And, you know, I was like, you know,"},{"startTime":1114.432,"endTime":1120.555,"body":"I was drawing Spider-Man. and sports stars"},{"startTime":1120.575,"endTime":1125.019,"body":"when I was a kid, because I was just inspired"},{"startTime":1120.575,"endTime":1125.019,"body":"by the pictures I was seeing. You know? And"},{"startTime":1125.099,"endTime":1129.122,"body":"also then you start to see illustrations and"},{"startTime":1125.099,"endTime":1129.122,"body":"you'd be like, well, how'd this guy get his"},{"startTime":1129.162,"endTime":1134.187,"body":"drawing on the front of this magazine? Or how'd"},{"startTime":1129.162,"endTime":1134.187,"body":"this guy, you know? I had no idea how it worked,"},{"startTime":1134.227,"endTime":1138.53,"body":"but I just thought, I just thought that was"},{"startTime":1134.227,"endTime":1138.53,"body":"for me, if I could do it, you know? So we see"},{"startTime":1138.55,"endTime":1144.896,"body":"crappier and crappier work. And now the AI thing,"},{"startTime":1138.55,"endTime":1144.896,"body":"we're probably going to see even more crappy"},{"startTime":1144.936,"endTime":1151.621,"body":"work that, you know, that. I was telling my"},{"startTime":1144.936,"endTime":1151.621,"body":"students the other day, finesse and nuance"},{"startTime":1151.841,"endTime":1160.569,"body":"is the first thing to disappear when money becomes"},{"startTime":1151.841,"endTime":1160.569,"body":"more important than art. Right? So if you grow"},{"startTime":1160.649,"endTime":1165.673,"body":"up with no finesse and nuance in your culture,"},{"startTime":1160.649,"endTime":1165.673,"body":"you don't even notice when it's terrible. Right?"},{"startTime":1166.053,"endTime":1170.397,"body":"I mean, we have terrible pop music now, mostly"},{"startTime":1166.053,"endTime":1170.397,"body":"terrible pop music compared to the music that"},{"startTime":1170.437,"endTime":1175.481,"body":"we grew up with. Right? Kids, that's all they"},{"startTime":1170.437,"endTime":1175.481,"body":"hear. So they like it. That's their pop music."},{"startTime":1175.501,"endTime":1182.652,"body":"Okay, fine. but there's a richer world that's"},{"startTime":1175.501,"endTime":1182.652,"body":"possible and we're not even dipping into it."},{"startTime":1213.242,"endTime":1219.4850000000001,"body":"Absolutely. Is there any way to remedy this"},{"startTime":1213.242,"endTime":1219.4850000000001,"body":"through education? Well, it's the only way,"},{"startTime":1219.585,"endTime":1225.288,"body":"I think. You gotta, you know, I have these carousels,"},{"startTime":1219.585,"endTime":1225.288,"body":"no, like I call them carousels because I'm"},{"startTime":1225.448,"endTime":1231.3110000000001,"body":"old. Yes, of course. These PowerPoint presentations"},{"startTime":1225.448,"endTime":1231.3110000000001,"body":"where every week I'm showing them, here's 30"},{"startTime":1231.391,"endTime":1235.529,"body":"artists I bet you never heard of, you know?"},{"startTime":1231.391,"endTime":1235.529,"body":"And these guys inspired me when I was coming"},{"startTime":1235.6090000000002,"endTime":1240.251,"body":"up and here's 10 new people I just found this"},{"startTime":1235.6090000000002,"endTime":1240.251,"body":"week. You know, I have my students come in"},{"startTime":1240.2910000000002,"endTime":1244.874,"body":"every week and bring a piece of illustration"},{"startTime":1240.2910000000002,"endTime":1244.874,"body":"they saw during the week. It crossed their"},{"startTime":1244.914,"endTime":1248.796,"body":"path somewhere, right? It could be a candy bar"},{"startTime":1244.914,"endTime":1248.796,"body":"wrapper. It could be a menu cover. It could"},{"startTime":1248.836,"endTime":1253.1380000000001,"body":"be an illustration, a magazine. I go, let's"},{"startTime":1248.836,"endTime":1253.1380000000001,"body":"just talk about it. Let's look at it and let's"},{"startTime":1253.1580000000001,"endTime":1256.8,"body":"say, how do you think this person is making"},{"startTime":1253.1580000000001,"endTime":1256.8,"body":"a living? Could you, do you know who the artist"},{"startTime":1256.92,"endTime":1262.323,"body":"is? Is it who was the client? Was there a client"},{"startTime":1256.92,"endTime":1262.323,"body":"on this thing? And, um, just to talk about"},{"startTime":1262.363,"endTime":1265.876,"body":"the world of illustration. Like if people are"},{"startTime":1262.363,"endTime":1265.876,"body":"out there making a living, there's a machine"},{"startTime":1266.296,"endTime":1271.8980000000001,"body":"out there buying artwork. And you got to figure"},{"startTime":1266.296,"endTime":1271.8980000000001,"body":"out how do you fit into that world? Right?"},{"startTime":1272.358,"endTime":1277.8400000000001,"body":"What are the skills you have that you're developing"},{"startTime":1272.358,"endTime":1277.8400000000001,"body":"and what's possible, right? Like I was a terrible"},{"startTime":1277.88,"endTime":1281.5610000000001,"body":"painter. Like, you know, I admired the hell"},{"startTime":1277.88,"endTime":1281.5610000000001,"body":"out of people who could paint, but I realized,"},{"startTime":1283.101,"endTime":1288.383,"body":"I got to figure out I'm more of a, I'm more"},{"startTime":1283.101,"endTime":1288.383,"body":"of a drawer and a designer than a painter."},{"startTime":1288.423,"endTime":1293.297,"body":"So I had to figure out my world, right? So I"},{"startTime":1288.423,"endTime":1293.297,"body":"think one of the dangers is with kids today,"},{"startTime":1293.537,"endTime":1301.421,"body":"they just don't see illustration at a high level"},{"startTime":1293.537,"endTime":1301.421,"body":"at enough volume for them to have inspiration"},{"startTime":1301.461,"endTime":1306.884,"body":"about it. Like a lot of them get ready to graduate"},{"startTime":1301.461,"endTime":1306.884,"body":"and they're excited that they got an Instagram"},{"startTime":1307.064,"endTime":1316.169,"body":"commission. Pays like $65. Okay, God bless you,"},{"startTime":1307.064,"endTime":1316.169,"body":"that's great. Do it, draw the hell out of it."},{"startTime":1316.209,"endTime":1321.1200000000001,"body":"But I want their goals to be higher. And if"},{"startTime":1316.209,"endTime":1321.1200000000001,"body":"you don't show it to them. If you don't say"},{"startTime":1321.6000000000001,"endTime":1325.3410000000001,"body":"what you're working on and what people you know"},{"startTime":1321.6000000000001,"endTime":1325.3410000000001,"body":"are doing and think, you know. And I don't"},{"startTime":1325.361,"endTime":1329.8220000000001,"body":"wanna come across with my students either as,"},{"startTime":1325.361,"endTime":1329.8220000000001,"body":"you know, well, grandpa's about to tell us"},{"startTime":1329.842,"endTime":1335.2440000000001,"body":"stories about before the internet again, you"},{"startTime":1329.842,"endTime":1335.2440000000001,"body":"know. But so I try to stay current, right?"},{"startTime":1335.284,"endTime":1340.085,"body":"I try to pay attention to what's happening and"},{"startTime":1335.284,"endTime":1340.085,"body":"tell them stories about what I've done. You"},{"startTime":1340.125,"endTime":1345.567,"body":"know, I bring in like projects where I've saved"},{"startTime":1340.125,"endTime":1345.567,"body":"every email between me and an art director,"},{"startTime":1345.727,"endTime":1350.736,"body":"you know. And I say, here's the brief, here's"},{"startTime":1345.727,"endTime":1350.736,"body":"what I got from the art. And then here's the"},{"startTime":1350.776,"endTime":1354.637,"body":"first round of sketches I sent, and here's what"},{"startTime":1350.776,"endTime":1354.637,"body":"I showed them and what I said, and here's what"},{"startTime":1354.6770000000001,"endTime":1358.538,"body":"they said, and here's what the editor said."},{"startTime":1354.6770000000001,"endTime":1358.538,"body":"And we go back and forth and show them step"},{"startTime":1358.558,"endTime":1362.939,"body":"by step. And my students are like, this is so"},{"startTime":1358.558,"endTime":1362.939,"body":"great, I've never seen this kind of thing before."},{"startTime":1363.3590000000002,"endTime":1366.68,"body":"And I think when I was a student, there was"},{"startTime":1363.3590000000002,"endTime":1366.68,"body":"no way to say it, right? There was no way to"},{"startTime":1366.7,"endTime":1371.101,"body":"know that. There was no email back and forth."},{"startTime":1366.7,"endTime":1371.101,"body":"Someone may come in and tell you a story, but"},{"startTime":1371.121,"endTime":1376.803,"body":"you have to listen. So now we have it step by"},{"startTime":1371.121,"endTime":1376.803,"body":"step, we can show it's much clearer. So I'm"},{"startTime":1376.843,"endTime":1383.361,"body":"hopeful because The students I have are fantastic."},{"startTime":1376.843,"endTime":1383.361,"body":"I mean, you have some who you just wonder,"},{"startTime":1385.781,"endTime":1390.0230000000001,"body":"you don't seem to be putting forth a lot of"},{"startTime":1385.781,"endTime":1390.0230000000001,"body":"effort, right? There's some, but for the most"},{"startTime":1390.063,"endTime":1393.944,"body":"part, the students I have are fantastic and"},{"startTime":1390.063,"endTime":1393.944,"body":"they inspire me every week. I go in and I talk"},{"startTime":1393.964,"endTime":1399.805,"body":"to them and see what they're doing and see them"},{"startTime":1393.964,"endTime":1399.805,"body":"trying, so it's what you do, right? That's"},{"startTime":1399.845,"endTime":1406.627,"body":"how you try to do it, try to raise the bar."},{"startTime":1399.845,"endTime":1406.627,"body":"Absolutely. Do you find any limitations in"},{"startTime":1406.6670000000001,"endTime":1417.595,"body":"your teaching? of illustration through the existing"},{"startTime":1406.6670000000001,"endTime":1417.595,"body":"structures? No, and you know, at Art Center,"},{"startTime":1417.895,"endTime":1425.842,"body":"there's struggles to run the school, right?"},{"startTime":1417.895,"endTime":1425.842,"body":"I mean, there's a bunch of changes at Art Center"},{"startTime":1425.882,"endTime":1433.589,"body":"right now. We have a lot of international students"},{"startTime":1425.882,"endTime":1433.589,"body":"and I'm sure finances are difficult. Tuition"},{"startTime":1433.789,"endTime":1440.185,"body":"is really, really high, right? So... Not everybody"},{"startTime":1433.789,"endTime":1440.185,"body":"that wants to learn to be an artist gets to"},{"startTime":1440.2250000000001,"endTime":1445.768,"body":"be an artist. So I don't know the ins and outs"},{"startTime":1440.2250000000001,"endTime":1445.768,"body":"of running a school. I don't know the details"},{"startTime":1445.8890000000001,"endTime":1450.952,"body":"of why, you know, they make decisions they make"},{"startTime":1445.8890000000001,"endTime":1450.952,"body":"in terms of, of the administration, in terms"},{"startTime":1450.992,"endTime":1457.896,"body":"of money and how things get done. But one great"},{"startTime":1450.992,"endTime":1457.896,"body":"thing about Art Center is, is that they let"},{"startTime":1458.236,"endTime":1462.999,"body":"the instructors, you come in and teach your"},{"startTime":1458.236,"endTime":1462.999,"body":"class your way. Right. That's wonderful. And"},{"startTime":1463.019,"endTime":1468.261,"body":"you can adapt your class. each week according"},{"startTime":1463.019,"endTime":1468.261,"body":"to what students are doing and what students"},{"startTime":1468.3010000000002,"endTime":1474.625,"body":"are in your class and all that, right? So, you"},{"startTime":1468.3010000000002,"endTime":1474.625,"body":"know, it's a great place to teach because you"},{"startTime":1474.925,"endTime":1480.729,"body":"really, they really want you to be, you know,"},{"startTime":1474.925,"endTime":1480.729,"body":"Art Center started in the, I think, 1940, the"},{"startTime":1480.809,"endTime":1486.252,"body":"idea of training artists to work in industry."},{"startTime":1480.809,"endTime":1486.252,"body":"And it's always been a place where working"},{"startTime":1487.132,"endTime":1494.844,"body":"artists are teaching students. So it's not just"},{"startTime":1487.132,"endTime":1494.844,"body":"a bunch of... It's not so much an academic"},{"startTime":1494.884,"endTime":1499.9850000000001,"body":"situation, although it is, but the tradition"},{"startTime":1494.884,"endTime":1499.9850000000001,"body":"has always been you're learning from people"},{"startTime":1500.005,"endTime":1505.767,"body":"that are doing the thing you want to do. Sure,"},{"startTime":1500.005,"endTime":1505.767,"body":"sure. But is there anything that you would"},{"startTime":1505.807,"endTime":1512.6090000000002,"body":"change if you could, anything at all, in your"},{"startTime":1505.807,"endTime":1512.6090000000002,"body":"whole teaching structure? Yeah, I wish a couple"},{"startTime":1512.6290000000001,"endTime":1516.49,"body":"things. First of all, I wish it wasn't so expensive."},{"startTime":1512.6290000000001,"endTime":1516.49,"body":"I wish it was possible. I don't even know if"},{"startTime":1516.53,"endTime":1522.0710000000001,"body":"I could have gotten it. The cost it is now."},{"startTime":1516.53,"endTime":1522.0710000000001,"body":"My parents, when I was in high school, my mom"},{"startTime":1522.711,"endTime":1526.606,"body":"went... She was a housekeeper, you know, a homekeeper,"},{"startTime":1522.711,"endTime":1526.606,"body":"and my brothers and me were growing up, she"},{"startTime":1526.626,"endTime":1530.469,"body":"was always home. And then when we got in high"},{"startTime":1526.626,"endTime":1530.469,"body":"school, she went and got a job working in an"},{"startTime":1530.589,"endTime":1533.991,"body":"office, and then she actually ended up working"},{"startTime":1530.589,"endTime":1533.991,"body":"in admissions office over at another college."},{"startTime":1534.732,"endTime":1540.2150000000001,"body":"And I realized thinking back on it, man, she"},{"startTime":1534.732,"endTime":1540.2150000000001,"body":"did that so she could pay my tuition, right?"},{"startTime":1540.856,"endTime":1543.838,"body":"Like that was some extra income to pay tuition"},{"startTime":1540.856,"endTime":1543.838,"body":"for me and my brothers when we were coming"},{"startTime":1543.8980000000001,"endTime":1550.2820000000002,"body":"up. And a simple move like that is not possible"},{"startTime":1543.8980000000001,"endTime":1550.2820000000002,"body":"now for the cost of art school, you know? And"},{"startTime":1550.642,"endTime":1554.7050000000002,"body":"so I would have been in student. student debt,"},{"startTime":1550.642,"endTime":1554.7050000000002,"body":"I'd probably, you know, I would have had to"},{"startTime":1554.7250000000001,"endTime":1561.108,"body":"go into debt to do that. And so the cost is"},{"startTime":1554.7250000000001,"endTime":1561.108,"body":"prohibited for some people, right? So I wish"},{"startTime":1561.1680000000001,"endTime":1565.0900000000001,"body":"I could change that. And I know it's, this is"},{"startTime":1561.1680000000001,"endTime":1565.0900000000001,"body":"another thing, I don't understand it, because"},{"startTime":1565.5910000000001,"endTime":1571.214,"body":"the cost of high, of art schools all around"},{"startTime":1565.5910000000001,"endTime":1571.214,"body":"the world is the same, and so it's expensive."},{"startTime":1571.614,"endTime":1577.1570000000002,"body":"It must be expensive to run an art school, right?"},{"startTime":1571.614,"endTime":1577.1570000000002,"body":"So I wish I could change that. The other thing"},{"startTime":1577.1970000000001,"endTime":1583.6760000000002,"body":"I wish I could change is I wish, we have students"},{"startTime":1577.1970000000001,"endTime":1583.6760000000002,"body":"who come right out of high school. And they're"},{"startTime":1583.856,"endTime":1588.757,"body":"asked, they're 17 years old, 18 years old, and"},{"startTime":1583.856,"endTime":1588.757,"body":"they're asked, what do you wanna do the rest"},{"startTime":1588.797,"endTime":1592.678,"body":"of your life? Because you're gonna start being"},{"startTime":1588.797,"endTime":1592.678,"body":"trained for that thing right now. And I wish"},{"startTime":1592.718,"endTime":1597.52,"body":"they could just come in and be an artist, just"},{"startTime":1592.718,"endTime":1597.52,"body":"come in and draw and paint and try this and"},{"startTime":1597.56,"endTime":1604.161,"body":"try that without that crush of money and that"},{"startTime":1597.56,"endTime":1604.161,"body":"crush of time and that thing where you better"},{"startTime":1604.181,"endTime":1608.363,"body":"get your portfolio together because you gotta"},{"startTime":1604.181,"endTime":1608.363,"body":"get a job the second you graduate. I wish there"},{"startTime":1608.7630000000001,"endTime":1614.381,"body":"was more time stretched out so there was. more"},{"startTime":1608.7630000000001,"endTime":1614.381,"body":"it's not just so much experimentation but less"},{"startTime":1614.481,"endTime":1621.443,"body":"stress of just like trying to be a professional"},{"startTime":1614.481,"endTime":1621.443,"body":"when you're just a kid you know and I wish"},{"startTime":1621.483,"endTime":1626.826,"body":"there was also more crossover between majors"},{"startTime":1621.483,"endTime":1626.826,"body":"where you can take a photography class I took"},{"startTime":1626.846,"endTime":1632.508,"body":"a filmmaking class when I was a student I started"},{"startTime":1626.846,"endTime":1632.508,"body":"and you know I was love movies and now here"},{"startTime":1632.548,"endTime":1636.65,"body":"I am with a little super 8 camera shooting my"},{"startTime":1632.548,"endTime":1636.65,"body":"friends and then and then editing the film"},{"startTime":1636.69,"endTime":1640.851,"body":"and put I loved it was fantastic, but I had"},{"startTime":1636.69,"endTime":1640.851,"body":"no time you know it's like that was a great"},{"startTime":1640.871,"endTime":1645.49,"body":"class. That was exhausting to make those films."},{"startTime":1640.871,"endTime":1645.49,"body":"And I'm not a film major, so I'm not gonna"},{"startTime":1645.53,"endTime":1651.674,"body":"ever do it again. But I wish there was more"},{"startTime":1645.53,"endTime":1651.674,"body":"of that kind of, you just get to come to school"},{"startTime":1652.094,"endTime":1660.479,"body":"and learn and try new things, right? And that's,"},{"startTime":1652.094,"endTime":1660.479,"body":"sadly that's, it's like these young kids are"},{"startTime":1660.699,"endTime":1669.0240000000001,"body":"on a career path that's stressful from the minute"},{"startTime":1660.699,"endTime":1669.0240000000001,"body":"they show up at Art Center, right? Yeah. And"},{"startTime":1669.404,"endTime":1672.747,"body":"I'm sure it's the same at all schools, where"},{"startTime":1669.404,"endTime":1672.747,"body":"you're worried about, you know, getting a job."},{"startTime":1673.087,"endTime":1678.371,"body":"How are you going to get this investment of"},{"startTime":1673.087,"endTime":1678.371,"body":"your art school? How are you going to turn"},{"startTime":1678.391,"endTime":1683.0140000000001,"body":"this into a business? You know? Or how are you"},{"startTime":1678.391,"endTime":1683.0140000000001,"body":"going to turn this into a way to a career?"},{"startTime":1683.855,"endTime":1687.6380000000001,"body":"And so I wish I could change that. You know,"},{"startTime":1683.855,"endTime":1687.6380000000001,"body":"I'd like to see, you know, because, you know,"},{"startTime":1687.678,"endTime":1692.662,"body":"like I said, when I was in art school, I loved"},{"startTime":1687.678,"endTime":1692.662,"body":"every minute of it. And I would have loved"},{"startTime":1692.682,"endTime":1699.646,"body":"to stay longer. Although, you know, I also remember"},{"startTime":1692.682,"endTime":1699.646,"body":"getting at the end of my school years, I was"},{"startTime":1699.6660000000002,"endTime":1704.135,"body":"just like, I don't want to do one more fake"},{"startTime":1699.6660000000002,"endTime":1704.135,"body":"assignment. I want to go out and see if I can"},{"startTime":1704.175,"endTime":1705.478,"body":"do this or not. You know?"},{"startTime":1709.588,"endTime":1718.592,"body":"It's wonderful. For example, the axis, though,"},{"startTime":1709.588,"endTime":1718.592,"body":"you said about the super 8, the axis to materials"},{"startTime":1718.632,"endTime":1724.054,"body":"and media is much greater now. For example,"},{"startTime":1718.632,"endTime":1724.054,"body":"I remember when I was an illustration student,"},{"startTime":1725.154,"endTime":1731.817,"body":"all we had was a Polaroid to test out the positions"},{"startTime":1725.154,"endTime":1731.817,"body":"if we want a complicated body position for"},{"startTime":1731.877,"endTime":1737.872,"body":"drawing. All we had was Polaroid or the Ilford"},{"startTime":1731.877,"endTime":1737.872,"body":"XP2 that would process really fast. series"},{"startTime":1737.892,"endTime":1745.757,"body":"of things in black and white. You know, so now"},{"startTime":1737.892,"endTime":1745.757,"body":"you have these, you know, broadcast quality,"},{"startTime":1745.797,"endTime":1752.662,"body":"film quality, you know, cameras for really cheap"},{"startTime":1745.797,"endTime":1752.662,"body":"or, you know, the access to media is far greater."},{"startTime":1752.682,"endTime":1760.887,"body":"Yeah. Access to all kinds of things for a lot"},{"startTime":1752.682,"endTime":1760.887,"body":"less. So it's interesting what students now"},{"startTime":1760.928,"endTime":1769.938,"body":"have with greater ease of access, but of course,"},{"startTime":1760.928,"endTime":1769.938,"body":"much harder. careers. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And"},{"startTime":1769.958,"endTime":1774.923,"body":"that's, you know, the technology is amazing,"},{"startTime":1769.958,"endTime":1774.923,"body":"right? But do they have an idea of what to"},{"startTime":1774.963,"endTime":1781.3700000000001,"body":"do with it? You know, and the limitations actually"},{"startTime":1774.963,"endTime":1781.3700000000001,"body":"help them become better storytellers or, you"},{"startTime":1781.39,"endTime":1787.096,"body":"know, having everything at your disposal doesn't"},{"startTime":1781.39,"endTime":1787.096,"body":"always make the best. Absolutely. I mean, look"},{"startTime":1787.136,"endTime":1792.471,"body":"at, look at, you know, Marvel movies, right?"},{"startTime":1787.136,"endTime":1792.471,"body":"I mean, they're horrible. and they're all special"},{"startTime":1792.511,"endTime":1797.461,"body":"effects and they're all the same and it's like,"},{"startTime":1792.511,"endTime":1797.461,"body":"you could do anything. And it gets so, we don't"},{"startTime":1797.501,"endTime":1801.55,"body":"care, right? Absolutely, absolutely."},{"startTime":1805.076,"endTime":1810.8990000000001,"body":"How could our viewers and listeners find you?"},{"startTime":1805.076,"endTime":1810.8990000000001,"body":"Well, I'm, you know, as all illustrators, I"},{"startTime":1810.919,"endTime":1817.983,"body":"have a website. It's paul So you can see my"},{"startTime":1810.919,"endTime":1817.983,"body":"work on the website. I'm also on Instagram."},{"startTime":1818.703,"endTime":1825.307,"body":"I think that's also under Paul Rogers Studio."},{"startTime":1818.703,"endTime":1825.307,"body":"So you can follow me on Instagram. And I try"},{"startTime":1825.327,"endTime":1831.451,"body":"to stay current with that stuff, post new work"},{"startTime":1825.327,"endTime":1831.451,"body":"when I have something I'm proud of. And Instagram's"},{"startTime":1831.471,"endTime":1836.338,"body":"a lot of fun because Sometimes it's just like"},{"startTime":1831.471,"endTime":1836.338,"body":"a sketchbook drawing or something that nobody"},{"startTime":1836.358,"endTime":1840.422,"body":"would see, just stuff around your studio and"},{"startTime":1836.358,"endTime":1840.422,"body":"you can post it. And then, you know, you get"},{"startTime":1840.442,"endTime":1845.4460000000001,"body":"a few likes and you feel good about yourself"},{"startTime":1840.442,"endTime":1845.4460000000001,"body":"that morning. But I like that. I like seeing,"},{"startTime":1845.546,"endTime":1849.189,"body":"you know, I'm friends with a lot of people I've"},{"startTime":1845.546,"endTime":1849.189,"body":"never met, other illustrators around the world"},{"startTime":1849.8500000000001,"endTime":1853.813,"body":"who I've never met, but I feel like I know them"},{"startTime":1849.8500000000001,"endTime":1853.813,"body":"because of their Instagram and the stuff we"},{"startTime":1853.853,"endTime":1858.758,"body":"share back and forth there. So that's fantastic,"},{"startTime":1853.853,"endTime":1858.758,"body":"right? Absolutely. Yeah, especially for illustrators"},{"startTime":1858.798,"endTime":1865.781,"body":"who, you know, it's a... pretty solitary business."},{"startTime":1858.798,"endTime":1865.781,"body":"You spend a lot of time alone. And that's another"},{"startTime":1865.8020000000001,"endTime":1869.183,"body":"thing about teaching that I like is like, you"},{"startTime":1865.8020000000001,"endTime":1869.183,"body":"know, there's some great artists teaching on"},{"startTime":1869.223,"endTime":1873.765,"body":"faculty with me as I get to see them. And then"},{"startTime":1869.223,"endTime":1873.765,"body":"as my students graduate and move on, I get"},{"startTime":1873.785,"endTime":1877.406,"body":"to keep track of them. And so through social"},{"startTime":1873.785,"endTime":1877.406,"body":"media and stuff, that's possible. It used to"},{"startTime":1877.4460000000001,"endTime":1883.9360000000001,"body":"be hard to do that. And so it's wonderful. Yeah."},{"startTime":1877.4460000000001,"endTime":1883.9360000000001,"body":"What advice would you like to leave us with?"},{"startTime":1885.4170000000001,"endTime":1893.48,"body":"Advice for who? Well, for teachers, for students."},{"startTime":1885.4170000000001,"endTime":1893.48,"body":"I don't know, you just got to believe in yourself."},{"startTime":1893.64,"endTime":1900.643,"body":"That's one thing, right? You know, one thing"},{"startTime":1893.64,"endTime":1900.643,"body":"I think like, to be an illustrator, you need"},{"startTime":1900.683,"endTime":1901.804,"body":"a certain level of"},{"startTime":1905.345,"endTime":1910.887,"body":"sort of ignorant optimism, you know, you have"},{"startTime":1905.345,"endTime":1910.887,"body":"to sort of believe it's going to work out."},{"startTime":1911.788,"endTime":1922.671,"body":"and you need a kind of personality that is okay"},{"startTime":1911.788,"endTime":1922.671,"body":"with uncertainty. You know, and even if you're"},{"startTime":1922.691,"endTime":1927.7720000000002,"body":"going into the entertainment world, you know,"},{"startTime":1922.691,"endTime":1927.7720000000002,"body":"movies end, shows end, you get fired, studios"},{"startTime":1927.8120000000001,"endTime":1932.173,"body":"cut things, and you're out looking for work"},{"startTime":1927.8120000000001,"endTime":1932.173,"body":"again. So there's never really a solid, no"},{"startTime":1932.213,"endTime":1938.6950000000002,"body":"one goes to Disney and works for 30 years anymore,"},{"startTime":1932.213,"endTime":1938.6950000000002,"body":"you know. So there's a level of uncertainty"},{"startTime":1938.7350000000001,"endTime":1945.377,"body":"in the industry we're in. You need that personality."},{"startTime":1938.7350000000001,"endTime":1945.377,"body":"Like you need a personality that is okay with"},{"startTime":1945.4170000000001,"endTime":1951.959,"body":"that, or at least is optimistic enough to send"},{"startTime":1945.4170000000001,"endTime":1951.959,"body":"out emails to strangers with your work, you"},{"startTime":1951.979,"endTime":1957.54,"body":"know? Because if you stop doing that, if you"},{"startTime":1951.979,"endTime":1957.54,"body":"stop the thing you have to believe enough in"},{"startTime":1958.06,"endTime":1963.442,"body":"to make it, you know, those first rough years"},{"startTime":1958.06,"endTime":1963.442,"body":"when nobody knows you, I've seen a lot of great"},{"startTime":1963.502,"endTime":1969.603,"body":"artists graduate from arts center. Their work"},{"startTime":1963.502,"endTime":1969.603,"body":"is fantastic, but they're too shy to get out"},{"startTime":1969.643,"endTime":1974.237,"body":"there, right? And I don't know whether you need"},{"startTime":1969.643,"endTime":1974.237,"body":"like, I don't know what to do about that. That's"},{"startTime":1974.257,"endTime":1978.559,"body":"a personality thing. You need help, you need"},{"startTime":1974.257,"endTime":1978.559,"body":"someone else to do it for you to send things"},{"startTime":1978.719,"endTime":1982.22,"body":"out, you need to find a representative. If they"},{"startTime":1978.719,"endTime":1982.22,"body":"can get a good agent, yeah, it used to be the"},{"startTime":1982.26,"endTime":1986.582,"body":"role of an agent, but these days it's all more"},{"startTime":1982.26,"endTime":1986.582,"body":"complicated. It's very complicated, right?"},{"startTime":1986.602,"endTime":1990.544,"body":"I mean, you know, I mean, I don't know, it's"},{"startTime":1986.602,"endTime":1990.544,"body":"always been complicated, right? When I got"},{"startTime":1990.564,"endTime":1994.305,"body":"out of school, you needed an agent in every"},{"startTime":1990.564,"endTime":1994.305,"body":"town you wanted to work in, because we all"},{"startTime":1994.325,"endTime":1998.507,"body":"had these physical portfolios that had to be"},{"startTime":1994.325,"endTime":1998.507,"body":"shut down around, you know? Of course, of course."},{"startTime":1998.6670000000001,"endTime":2003.882,"body":"So it's complicated. whole thing is complicated."},{"startTime":1998.6670000000001,"endTime":2003.882,"body":"But you know, you got to hang in there and"},{"startTime":2004.603,"endTime":2010.327,"body":"you have to believe in yourself even when it"},{"startTime":2004.603,"endTime":2010.327,"body":"seems like there's no reason to believe in"},{"startTime":2010.347,"endTime":2014.47,"body":"yourself. And that's hard, right? That's really,"},{"startTime":2010.347,"endTime":2014.47,"body":"really hard. So you know, hang in there, you"},{"startTime":2014.49,"endTime":2017.5320000000002,"body":"know, get with your friends. Everybody's the"},{"startTime":2014.49,"endTime":2017.5320000000002,"body":"same. I'll tell you, here's a bit of advice."},{"startTime":2019.153,"endTime":2024.377,"body":"You always think everybody else is doing better"},{"startTime":2019.153,"endTime":2024.377,"body":"than you. Right? You always think, man, you"},{"startTime":2024.3970000000002,"endTime":2028.288,"body":"look at that. They had a drawing in the New"},{"startTime":2024.3970000000002,"endTime":2028.288,"body":"Yorker that must be fantastic to be them. And"},{"startTime":2028.308,"endTime":2031.769,"body":"it's like, they're just like you. They're worried"},{"startTime":2028.308,"endTime":2031.769,"body":"about the next job. They're sweating it out,"},{"startTime":2031.8690000000001,"endTime":2037.51,"body":"trying to pay their bills. They have a feeling"},{"startTime":2031.8690000000001,"endTime":2037.51,"body":"of insecurity, but somehow they're managing,"},{"startTime":2037.63,"endTime":2041.771,"body":"right? And they're just like you. We're all"},{"startTime":2037.63,"endTime":2041.771,"body":"just out here trying to manage, trying to figure"},{"startTime":2041.8310000000001,"endTime":2046.613,"body":"out how do we do this? How do we do it? Keep"},{"startTime":2041.8310000000001,"endTime":2046.613,"body":"it going. You know, like, you know, we started"},{"startTime":2046.633,"endTime":2051.074,"body":"this thing. I started, 44 years I've been in"},{"startTime":2046.633,"endTime":2051.074,"body":"Ilterate, that's crazy. I don't know how I"},{"startTime":2051.114,"endTime":2058.189,"body":"ever got started. I don't know how I ever, like"},{"startTime":2051.114,"endTime":2058.189,"body":"how it continues. It seems crazy. But it does,"},{"startTime":2058.349,"endTime":2065.174,"body":"right? It's like, okay, we're lucky. Well, Paul,"},{"startTime":2058.349,"endTime":2065.174,"body":"thank you ever so much. It's been a wonderful"},{"startTime":2065.214,"endTime":2069.718,"body":"conversation and very, very useful. I do keep"},{"startTime":2065.214,"endTime":2069.718,"body":"in touch. Thank you. Okay, thank you. Thanks"},{"startTime":2069.738,"endTime":2070.118,"body":"very much."}]}