{"version":"1.0.0","segments":[{"startTime":10.378,"endTime":15.901,"body":"Hello and welcome to Design Education Talks"},{"startTime":10.378,"endTime":15.901,"body":"podcast by the New Art School. This is a very"},{"startTime":15.941,"endTime":24.585,"body":"special episode, episode 100. Uh, and we have"},{"startTime":15.941,"endTime":24.585,"body":"again, uh, our guests from episode one, Professor"},{"startTime":24.605,"endTime":31.329,"body":"Phil Cleaver, uh, to celebrate and to discuss"},{"startTime":24.605,"endTime":31.329,"body":"again, uh, and to meet and to talk what's changed"},{"startTime":31.349,"endTime":37.573,"body":"and what hasn't changed. Uh, welcome Phil. Well,"},{"startTime":31.349,"endTime":37.573,"body":"thank you for having me back. It's wonderful."},{"startTime":37.593,"endTime":42.85,"body":"It's really, really wonderful to have you here."},{"startTime":37.593,"endTime":42.85,"body":"So take us through your journey in design and"},{"startTime":42.89,"endTime":51.054,"body":"what led you to pursue your career. Well, when"},{"startTime":42.89,"endTime":51.054,"body":"I was about 15, my mother and father sat me"},{"startTime":51.094,"endTime":57.757,"body":"down at the kitchen table and they had a conversation"},{"startTime":51.094,"endTime":57.757,"body":"which I didn't even join in in, which was like"},{"startTime":57.797,"endTime":63.859,"body":"my mother's to work out what to do with my life."},{"startTime":57.797,"endTime":63.859,"body":"And my mother said, he's got a God given art"},{"startTime":63.879,"endTime":69.481,"body":"for getting into trouble and he can only do"},{"startTime":63.879,"endTime":69.481,"body":"two things. One is cook and the other is art."},{"startTime":70.802,"endTime":75.043,"body":"And then she said, well, he can't go into cooking"},{"startTime":70.802,"endTime":75.043,"body":"because he can't speak English, let alone French."},{"startTime":75.503,"endTime":80.624,"body":"Because in that day and age, you had to speak"},{"startTime":75.503,"endTime":80.624,"body":"French to work as a chef. And then my father"},{"startTime":80.665,"endTime":85.706,"body":"said, oh, if he's going to go into commercial"},{"startTime":80.665,"endTime":85.706,"body":"art, which is what it was called, he's going"},{"startTime":85.726,"endTime":91.548,"body":"to have to get a trade like cabi or a chippy"},{"startTime":85.726,"endTime":91.548,"body":"or something for Sparks to fall back on. And"},{"startTime":92.548,"endTime":98.866,"body":"my mother responded with the first time I'd"},{"startTime":92.548,"endTime":98.866,"body":"ever heard a swear. She said, you could throw"},{"startTime":98.886,"endTime":104.309,"body":"that little bastard in a sewer and you come"},{"startTime":98.886,"endTime":104.309,"body":"out smelling the roses. And my dad went, yeah,"},{"startTime":104.369,"endTime":109.973,"body":"you're right. So I went to art school. And then"},{"startTime":104.369,"endTime":109.973,"body":"being told I was only any good at one thing,"},{"startTime":109.993,"endTime":117.897,"body":"I've just done one thing. So I have been doing"},{"startTime":109.993,"endTime":117.897,"body":"art ever since. That's wonderful. So who was"},{"startTime":117.937,"endTime":122.96,"body":"the biggest influence in your early career and"},{"startTime":117.937,"endTime":122.96,"body":"what did you learn from that? The biggest influence"},{"startTime":123.0,"endTime":129.757,"body":"in my early career was Anthony Frosch, I got"},{"startTime":123.0,"endTime":129.757,"body":"the Central School of Art and Design. That"},{"startTime":129.777,"endTime":136.581,"body":"was a joke in itself because when I did my foundation"},{"startTime":129.777,"endTime":136.581,"body":"course at Harrow, and then applied and they"},{"startTime":136.621,"endTime":142.305,"body":"actually wrote to the head of Harrow Art School"},{"startTime":136.621,"endTime":142.305,"body":"saying, is this his own work? And the head"},{"startTime":142.345,"endTime":145.988,"body":"of art school showed me the letter and he wrote"},{"startTime":142.345,"endTime":145.988,"body":"back saying, there's no one else like this"},{"startTime":146.048,"endTime":153.193,"body":"nutter. So I got accepted into the Central,"},{"startTime":146.048,"endTime":153.193,"body":"which was full of mostly middle class, rich"},{"startTime":153.233,"endTime":161.22,"body":"kids. And this East End bump. And then I didn't"},{"startTime":153.233,"endTime":161.22,"body":"really get on that well to start with because"},{"startTime":161.26,"endTime":167.946,"body":"I'd come to learn the trade not. not work. I"},{"startTime":161.26,"endTime":167.946,"body":"wanted to learn a trade anyway. We did this"},{"startTime":168.046,"endTime":173.088,"body":"typography course and I did this piece. I did"},{"startTime":168.046,"endTime":173.088,"body":"a layout and it was like a duck going to water."},{"startTime":173.368,"endTime":177.369,"body":"Everything seemed to work and I knew exactly"},{"startTime":173.368,"endTime":177.369,"body":"what I was doing. So I proudly showed it to"},{"startTime":177.689,"endTime":183.091,"body":"the tutor. He said, that's no good. And I said"},{"startTime":177.689,"endTime":183.091,"body":"bollocks and he said, no, it's no good. So"},{"startTime":183.131,"endTime":190.553,"body":"I went in a composing room and I typeset it"},{"startTime":183.131,"endTime":190.553,"body":"all in six on six, two, six, two, Gil Sands."},{"startTime":191.693,"endTime":196.048,"body":"And then I went back and I didn't do any other"},{"startTime":191.693,"endTime":196.048,"body":"lessons for a month. And I went back and then"},{"startTime":196.108,"endTime":199.851,"body":"I put it in front of him and said, now tell"},{"startTime":196.108,"endTime":199.851,"body":"me that ain't readable. It's no good. And he"},{"startTime":199.871,"endTime":205.476,"body":"said, now I'll teach you. And it turned out"},{"startTime":199.871,"endTime":205.476,"body":"to be this world famous photographer typographer"},{"startTime":205.496,"endTime":213.242,"body":"called Anthony Froschak. And it was through"},{"startTime":205.496,"endTime":213.242,"body":"that I met and got invited to, I went to Penn"},{"startTime":213.262,"endTime":219.867,"body":"showed my work at Pentagram and I started working"},{"startTime":213.262,"endTime":219.867,"body":"for Alan Fletcher. And through Anthony I then"},{"startTime":219.907,"endTime":225.312,"body":"went to TAY Day, Total Design in Holland. and"},{"startTime":219.907,"endTime":225.312,"body":"I worked for Vim Crowe, who was nicknamed,"},{"startTime":225.512,"endTime":232.998,"body":"was the grid. So I learned grids. And then I"},{"startTime":225.512,"endTime":232.998,"body":"worked with Michael Wolfe at Wolfe Owlins."},{"startTime":234.44,"endTime":241.586,"body":"And then I was headhunted into Allied International"},{"startTime":234.44,"endTime":241.586,"body":"Designers, sort of creative director of branding"},{"startTime":242.526,"endTime":249.672,"body":"in the eighties. And then I got fed up with"},{"startTime":242.526,"endTime":249.672,"body":"not doing enough design work. So I started"},{"startTime":249.732,"endTime":254.244,"body":"a company called Cleveland. which then grew"},{"startTime":249.732,"endTime":254.244,"body":"into yet another bloody big design company."},{"startTime":254.304,"endTime":259.728,"body":"So I got fed up with pushing paper and wanted"},{"startTime":254.304,"endTime":259.728,"body":"to use a pencil more. So I started Etow, which"},{"startTime":259.768,"endTime":267.693,"body":"just means and others in Latin. And we've been"},{"startTime":259.768,"endTime":267.693,"body":"going for 32 years. Wow. So how did this- And"},{"startTime":267.713,"endTime":272.237,"body":"my largest job we've ever designed was Visa"},{"startTime":267.713,"endTime":272.237,"body":"worldwide. And the smallest job was an East"},{"startTime":272.317,"endTime":278.381,"body":"End rat catcher's business card. That's excellent."},{"startTime":272.317,"endTime":278.381,"body":"So how did this experience shape your approach"},{"startTime":278.421,"endTime":286.019,"body":"to design? Well, one thing art school trained"},{"startTime":278.421,"endTime":286.019,"body":"us to be was not many graphic designers in"},{"startTime":286.059,"endTime":291.281,"body":"an art school. I remember one student trying"},{"startTime":286.059,"endTime":291.281,"body":"to do a letterhead and they said, no, you'll"},{"startTime":291.301,"endTime":295.182,"body":"spend the next 40 years of your life doing that"},{"startTime":291.301,"endTime":295.182,"body":"crap. What you've got to learn here is how"},{"startTime":295.222,"endTime":301.604,"body":"to think. So the central was quite unusual in"},{"startTime":295.222,"endTime":301.604,"body":"that respect because they wanted to train you"},{"startTime":301.644,"endTime":307.851,"body":"in thinking and in concepts and expand your"},{"startTime":301.644,"endTime":307.851,"body":"mind. and not how to be a mini graphic designer"},{"startTime":307.871,"endTime":314.137,"body":"in art school, which is what the LCP basically"},{"startTime":307.871,"endTime":314.137,"body":"was in that day and age. And I think that gave"},{"startTime":314.237,"endTime":320.322,"body":"such a good background because I got asked if"},{"startTime":314.237,"endTime":320.322,"body":"I could do an exhibition 30 years later and"},{"startTime":320.362,"endTime":325.847,"body":"I just went, yes, yes. And I got back and someone"},{"startTime":320.362,"endTime":325.847,"body":"said, Phil, have you ever designed one? I said,"},{"startTime":325.887,"endTime":330.879,"body":"no, but I can design anything. I was trained"},{"startTime":325.887,"endTime":330.879,"body":"to design anything. So we designed an exhibition,"},{"startTime":330.899,"endTime":334.584,"body":"maybe we did more exhibitions. But what I'm"},{"startTime":330.899,"endTime":334.584,"body":"saying is you're not frightened about what"},{"startTime":334.604,"endTime":341.034,"body":"you're going to design because you were trying"},{"startTime":334.604,"endTime":341.034,"body":"to use your mind. And I think not having computers"},{"startTime":341.074,"endTime":350.467,"body":"was a great help in training creativity. Because"},{"startTime":341.074,"endTime":350.467,"body":"I often get asked about things like, why do"},{"startTime":350.487,"endTime":356.708,"body":"you never have any problems? Or we get stuck"},{"startTime":350.487,"endTime":356.708,"body":"with ideas. And I'm like, you can't get stuck"},{"startTime":356.728,"endTime":364.451,"body":"with ideas. You can if you work on a Mac. Because"},{"startTime":356.728,"endTime":364.451,"body":"if you put in dog into search engine, you get"},{"startTime":364.511,"endTime":369.612,"body":"pictures of dogs. Well, I go to an art library"},{"startTime":364.511,"endTime":369.612,"body":"and I look at books and I look at hundreds"},{"startTime":369.652,"endTime":376.194,"body":"of irrelevant images. I look at how Picasso"},{"startTime":369.652,"endTime":376.194,"body":"drew a dog or Chegel drew a dog. different"},{"startTime":376.234,"endTime":382.137,"body":"books, I look at history of dogs, I do all this."},{"startTime":376.234,"endTime":382.137,"body":"And for all this irrelevant information, normally"},{"startTime":382.177,"endTime":387.62,"body":"comes an idea. But if all you're getting back"},{"startTime":382.177,"endTime":387.62,"body":"is what you put in, you're not gonna get any"},{"startTime":387.66,"endTime":394.335,"body":"more information to get a creative concept."},{"startTime":387.66,"endTime":394.335,"body":"And before anyone says it, artificial intelligence"},{"startTime":394.555,"endTime":400.917,"body":"is basically the clue is in the first word."},{"startTime":394.555,"endTime":400.917,"body":"It's artificial. It will become another tool"},{"startTime":401.558,"endTime":409.581,"body":"like using InDesign or Illustrator or Photoshop."},{"startTime":401.558,"endTime":409.581,"body":"It's a tool for creatives. It should actually"},{"startTime":409.901,"endTime":418.825,"body":"make my life easier. Well, it does already."},{"startTime":409.901,"endTime":418.825,"body":"So what projects did Central give you in order"},{"startTime":418.865,"endTime":428.835,"body":"to train you into thinking? Um, well, I was,"},{"startTime":418.865,"endTime":428.835,"body":"it was quite interesting because like most"},{"startTime":428.875,"endTime":433.879,"body":"things in life, I've never done what I was told"},{"startTime":428.875,"endTime":433.879,"body":"to do. Um, so because I started working with"},{"startTime":433.939,"endTime":440.364,"body":"Anthony, um, I then just started doing my own"},{"startTime":433.939,"endTime":440.364,"body":"work, my own way, which is all typographic."},{"startTime":441.125,"endTime":445.508,"body":"Uh, much to annoyance, a lot of students who"},{"startTime":441.125,"endTime":445.508,"body":"came at the end of their degree show just typeset"},{"startTime":445.528,"endTime":450.612,"body":"their business cards because there was only"},{"startTime":445.528,"endTime":450.612,"body":"letterpress and hot metal was a way of producing"},{"startTime":450.813,"endTime":457.095,"body":"anything in those days. I'd set nearly the whole"},{"startTime":450.813,"endTime":457.095,"body":"composing room in a year. It took them four"},{"startTime":457.135,"endTime":461.904,"body":"years to dis, put the text type back in the"},{"startTime":457.135,"endTime":461.904,"body":"cases from what I'd set."},{"startTime":466.818,"endTime":474.782,"body":"Wow. What was the biggest challenge you faced"},{"startTime":466.818,"endTime":474.782,"body":"when starting out in the industry? This is"},{"startTime":474.842,"endTime":479.365,"body":"a plug for my book, What They Didn't Teach You"},{"startTime":474.842,"endTime":479.365,"body":"In Design School, because I wrote all the little"},{"startTime":479.405,"endTime":483.887,"body":"stories in there. Like the same as it is now,"},{"startTime":479.405,"endTime":483.887,"body":"how do you get in front of people? How do you"},{"startTime":483.907,"endTime":491.772,"body":"knock on doors? I was asked by a very big designer"},{"startTime":483.907,"endTime":491.772,"body":"to show my portfolio, and then when I, because"},{"startTime":491.792,"endTime":496.134,"body":"there's no internet, so I then show my portfolio"},{"startTime":491.792,"endTime":496.134,"body":"and they showed me what they did. and they"},{"startTime":496.174,"endTime":500.898,"body":"both agreed, they agreed and I agreed, I would"},{"startTime":496.174,"endTime":500.898,"body":"never work there. Remember they said, why are"},{"startTime":500.918,"endTime":506.883,"body":"you here? Can you show the rest of the studio"},{"startTime":500.918,"endTime":506.883,"body":"your work? So I went through this typographic"},{"startTime":506.923,"endTime":512.788,"body":"portfolio again. Then when I got home, I wrote"},{"startTime":506.923,"endTime":512.788,"body":"an invoice for entertaining your design studio"},{"startTime":512.828,"endTime":520.455,"body":"for an hour. And I laughed and I put it in the"},{"startTime":512.828,"endTime":520.455,"body":"post box. And then I didn't get paid, but everyone"},{"startTime":520.555,"endTime":525.547,"body":"I found up in central London afterwards said,"},{"startTime":520.555,"endTime":525.547,"body":"oh. It's you. Yeah, you can come, but you can't"},{"startTime":525.607,"endTime":532.012,"body":"invoices. So it sort of began to open doors."},{"startTime":525.607,"endTime":532.012,"body":"You got, you know, if you send an email saying,"},{"startTime":532.052,"endTime":535.575,"body":"hello, I'm a student. I've just finished work."},{"startTime":532.052,"endTime":535.575,"body":"Will you please look at my portfolio? You're"},{"startTime":535.615,"endTime":540.579,"body":"not going to get anywhere. It's no idea. There's"},{"startTime":535.615,"endTime":540.579,"body":"no balls. There's no creativity. That's what"},{"startTime":540.619,"endTime":547.764,"body":"I mean. You've got to be trained to think differently."},{"startTime":540.619,"endTime":547.764,"body":"And how do you feel that the design industry"},{"startTime":547.844,"endTime":557.397,"body":"has evolved since you started? Um, I, I mean,"},{"startTime":547.844,"endTime":557.397,"body":"I still think great work comes out and there's"},{"startTime":557.417,"endTime":562.5,"body":"still amazing designers, but most of those are"},{"startTime":557.417,"endTime":562.5,"body":"actually doing things with ideas. And I still"},{"startTime":562.54,"endTime":568.744,"body":"a great believer. An idea is more powerful way"},{"startTime":562.54,"endTime":568.744,"body":"of communicating than a piece of hell vetica"},{"startTime":569.224,"endTime":574.067,"body":"with a four point on the end of it. And you"},{"startTime":569.224,"endTime":574.067,"body":"tell me that's a brand identity and logo. And"},{"startTime":574.107,"endTime":579.823,"body":"I'm so glad that things like Berber and all"},{"startTime":574.107,"endTime":579.823,"body":"that lot, which are sort of merge to look the"},{"startTime":579.863,"endTime":585.628,"body":"same are now going backwards and saying we want"},{"startTime":579.863,"endTime":585.628,"body":"something which makes us look different. Yeah."},{"startTime":585.648,"endTime":591.633,"body":"So that blandness hopefully will disappear."},{"startTime":585.648,"endTime":591.633,"body":"But what people now say are concepts is on"},{"startTime":591.653,"endTime":598.539,"body":"the whole a load of bollocks. Oh, sorry. Are"},{"startTime":591.653,"endTime":598.539,"body":"you allowed to say that? So, so do you feel"},{"startTime":598.579,"endTime":605.245,"body":"that the industry is going back to more ideas"},{"startTime":598.579,"endTime":605.245,"body":"based approach? Well, I, I'm hoping it is."},{"startTime":607.258,"endTime":612.82,"body":"Uh, I mean, Michael Wolf was phenomenal with"},{"startTime":607.258,"endTime":612.82,"body":"coming up with mad ideas, which, which changed"},{"startTime":612.86,"endTime":621.944,"body":"branding. You know, Henry would, would did blue"},{"startTime":612.86,"endTime":621.944,"body":"circles. So he drew a blue circle. Um, you"},{"startTime":621.964,"endTime":627.866,"body":"know, Michael Wolf decided to put, you know,"},{"startTime":621.964,"endTime":627.866,"body":"clouds on a petrol station or a fox to sell"},{"startTime":627.926,"endTime":634.889,"body":"paint. Uh, so I think, I think there was two"},{"startTime":627.926,"endTime":634.889,"body":"strands of everything, but I do think ideas"},{"startTime":634.929,"endTime":635.969,"body":"and concept work."},{"startTime":640.29,"endTime":646.912,"body":"But it's harder to sell. And if the designers"},{"startTime":640.29,"endTime":646.912,"body":"can't sell it, the work gets blander. But don't"},{"startTime":646.932,"endTime":651.994,"body":"you also feel that the decision makers have"},{"startTime":646.932,"endTime":651.994,"body":"changed as well? I mean, yeah, they've all"},{"startTime":652.014,"endTime":659.057,"body":"got young. They used to be all old. Yeah. Um,"},{"startTime":652.014,"endTime":659.057,"body":"yeah, I still think you can sell an idea. You"},{"startTime":659.097,"endTime":664.9,"body":"can sell a concept. Um, but you've got to understand"},{"startTime":659.097,"endTime":664.9,"body":"the client and have a way of communicating."},{"startTime":665.0,"endTime":668.481,"body":"It's good if you, if you have the client in"},{"startTime":665.0,"endTime":668.481,"body":"front of you, but if, if you have like a marketing"},{"startTime":668.541,"endTime":673.257,"body":"expert, or whatever, or somebody else representing"},{"startTime":668.541,"endTime":673.257,"body":"the client, then it becomes really, really"},{"startTime":673.297,"endTime":685.489,"body":"hard. Yeah, well, I tend not to these I don't"},{"startTime":673.297,"endTime":685.489,"body":"tend to work through marketing departments,"},{"startTime":685.529,"endTime":691.35,"body":"I tend when we're doing brands to be working"},{"startTime":685.529,"endTime":691.35,"body":"with CEO, or check, you know, the board of"},{"startTime":691.39,"endTime":698.532,"body":"directors. We were brand guardians for Nectar"},{"startTime":691.39,"endTime":698.532,"body":"for five years. And then we had to package"},{"startTime":698.572,"endTime":705.227,"body":"them up. Um, we packaged them up to to sell"},{"startTime":698.572,"endTime":705.227,"body":"them and obviously they sold and of course"},{"startTime":705.267,"endTime":711.771,"body":"we lost the client, so they all left. But what"},{"startTime":705.267,"endTime":711.771,"body":"was interesting is the CEO said, when the marketing"},{"startTime":711.811,"endTime":716.334,"body":"guy said, I will get Phil Cleaver, the client"},{"startTime":711.811,"endTime":716.334,"body":"went, oh not him, he always argues with me."},{"startTime":717.314,"endTime":722.177,"body":"And the marketing guy went, yeah, that's why"},{"startTime":717.314,"endTime":722.177,"body":"we're getting him, because he doesn't muck"},{"startTime":722.217,"endTime":730.175,"body":"about. So it's all about communication. It shouldn't"},{"startTime":722.217,"endTime":730.175,"body":"be about a designer. You should not really"},{"startTime":730.215,"endTime":736.277,"body":"be your the conduit. You're not the Vienne result."},{"startTime":730.215,"endTime":736.277,"body":"So it should all be about what the client,"},{"startTime":736.437,"endTime":742.258,"body":"how that client communicates. And you have the"},{"startTime":736.437,"endTime":742.258,"body":"skill set to translate what he wants and what"},{"startTime":742.298,"endTime":751.921,"body":"he hasn't even dreamed of into reality. Absolutely."},{"startTime":742.298,"endTime":751.921,"body":"But in a larger structure, that will be more"},{"startTime":751.941,"endTime":755.146,"body":"challenging. It's fantastic, which you can deal"},{"startTime":751.941,"endTime":755.146,"body":"directly with that. But in How do you do it"},{"startTime":755.186,"endTime":761.431,"body":"in a larger structure? Well, how large did you"},{"startTime":755.186,"endTime":761.431,"body":"get when we designed visa? We didn't deal with"},{"startTime":791.6410000000001,"endTime":796.042,"body":"the marketing department. We still with the"},{"startTime":791.6410000000001,"endTime":796.042,"body":"border director. Yeah. And when we do, I mean,"},{"startTime":796.1030000000001,"endTime":800.7040000000001,"body":"I'm working with a bank in Vietnam. And when"},{"startTime":796.1030000000001,"endTime":800.7040000000001,"body":"I'm working with them, I deal with the CEO."},{"startTime":800.724,"endTime":807.327,"body":"I get that the marketing department is sitting"},{"startTime":800.724,"endTime":807.327,"body":"there, but, um, that was quite interesting"},{"startTime":807.3470000000001,"endTime":815.091,"body":"because that banking Vietnam, I did a presentation"},{"startTime":807.3470000000001,"endTime":815.091,"body":"and didn't hear anything to, I think two years,"},{"startTime":815.1110000000001,"endTime":823.878,"body":"uh, and what they'd gone. they've done is they've"},{"startTime":815.1110000000001,"endTime":823.878,"body":"gone to two well known branding agencies which"},{"startTime":823.918,"endTime":831.422,"body":"have other studios in lots of different countries."},{"startTime":823.918,"endTime":831.422,"body":"Yeah. And the CEO just went, I've had enough"},{"startTime":831.4820000000001,"endTime":836.884,"body":"of those because they never seem to do what"},{"startTime":831.4820000000001,"endTime":836.884,"body":"they're not they're not producing amazing work."},{"startTime":837.764,"endTime":844.547,"body":"And so she said, just get me get cleaver back"},{"startTime":837.764,"endTime":844.547,"body":"get that mouthy one who designed visa and did"},{"startTime":845.028,"endTime":848.8320000000001,"body":"BNI Bank in Indonesia. Yeah, my question was"},{"startTime":845.028,"endTime":848.8320000000001,"body":"not about the size of the work. My question"},{"startTime":848.8520000000001,"endTime":852.695,"body":"was referring to exactly if you had people from"},{"startTime":848.8520000000001,"endTime":852.695,"body":"a large structure that, you know, exactly from"},{"startTime":852.8760000000001,"endTime":858.0010000000001,"body":"other departments that don't understand ideas-based"},{"startTime":852.8760000000001,"endTime":858.0010000000001,"body":"work. Because what I understand, what comes"},{"startTime":858.1410000000001,"endTime":864.427,"body":"out, at least so far, we have less ideas-based"},{"startTime":858.1410000000001,"endTime":864.427,"body":"work because the decision-making structure"},{"startTime":864.447,"endTime":869.4960000000001,"body":"is far more complicated. And also you've got"},{"startTime":864.447,"endTime":869.4960000000001,"body":"designers who don't know how to sell. Of course,"},{"startTime":869.5360000000001,"endTime":876.5200000000001,"body":"of course, but if this issue of making is complicated,"},{"startTime":869.5360000000001,"endTime":876.5200000000001,"body":"it's the designer's job to go up, is to take"},{"startTime":876.6,"endTime":880.2620000000001,"body":"it up, to get the right answers. Even if you"},{"startTime":876.6,"endTime":880.2620000000001,"body":"end up having an argument with the client."},{"startTime":880.282,"endTime":884.7840000000001,"body":"But in a larger agency, you have client service,"},{"startTime":880.282,"endTime":884.7840000000001,"body":"you have marketing, you have a load of other"},{"startTime":884.8040000000001,"endTime":889.427,"body":"people. Usually it's very interfering with the"},{"startTime":884.8040000000001,"endTime":889.427,"body":"designers. Usually the designers never get"},{"startTime":889.4670000000001,"endTime":894.8100000000001,"body":"to meet the client directly. How can you design"},{"startTime":889.4670000000001,"endTime":894.8100000000001,"body":"for someone, how can you design for a client"},{"startTime":894.9100000000001,"endTime":900.797,"body":"you've never met? I have to meet people. I have"},{"startTime":894.9100000000001,"endTime":900.797,"body":"to talk to them. I can read their body language."},{"startTime":900.817,"endTime":906.9590000000001,"body":"Absolutely. I can sit. No one can sell what"},{"startTime":900.817,"endTime":906.9590000000001,"body":"I'm designing the way I can sell it. Absolutely."},{"startTime":908.08,"endTime":912.822,"body":"I gave an international design conference, and"},{"startTime":908.08,"endTime":912.822,"body":"I've had the question a couple of times, which"},{"startTime":912.8820000000001,"endTime":919.0640000000001,"body":"was like, Phil, your work's really creative"},{"startTime":912.8820000000001,"endTime":919.0640000000001,"body":"and very different, but your clients let you"},{"startTime":919.0840000000001,"endTime":925.3470000000001,"body":"do it. And I'm like, and our clients, they work"},{"startTime":919.0840000000001,"endTime":925.3470000000001,"body":"on, won't let us do that stuff. And I'm like,"},{"startTime":925.3870000000001,"endTime":929.5490000000001,"body":"well, that's because you don't know what you're"},{"startTime":925.3870000000001,"endTime":929.5490000000001,"body":"doing. My clients are no different to your"},{"startTime":929.5690000000001,"endTime":931.355,"body":"clients. I just know how to do my job."},{"startTime":935.2560000000001,"endTime":939.197,"body":"which normally doesn't go down very well, but"},{"startTime":935.2560000000001,"endTime":939.197,"body":"it's the truth. My clients are no different"},{"startTime":939.2170000000001,"endTime":943.7790000000001,"body":"than anyone else's clients. I just get them"},{"startTime":939.2170000000001,"endTime":943.7790000000001,"body":"to buy more creative work. I completely agree"},{"startTime":943.7990000000001,"endTime":949.8420000000001,"body":"with you. I was just saying that in a large"},{"startTime":943.7990000000001,"endTime":949.8420000000001,"body":"structure, usually again, an art director or"},{"startTime":950.923,"endTime":957.0450000000001,"body":"even a creative, hardly any art client. So you're"},{"startTime":950.923,"endTime":957.0450000000001,"body":"saying the structure within a large creative"},{"startTime":957.085,"endTime":963.3050000000001,"body":"design company or a large ad agency. Yeah, the"},{"startTime":957.085,"endTime":963.3050000000001,"body":"designers don't get let out. Well, it's a bit"},{"startTime":963.345,"endTime":967.993,"body":"like asking me to design with one arm tied to"},{"startTime":963.345,"endTime":967.993,"body":"my leg. Yeah, of course. No, of course, of"},{"startTime":968.033,"endTime":973.543,"body":"course. They are completely green, but it's"},{"startTime":968.033,"endTime":973.543,"body":"a challenge. Because I've never yet met an"},{"startTime":973.5830000000001,"endTime":975.7270000000001,"body":"accountant who hasn't got a foot in either camp."},{"startTime":981.0450000000001,"endTime":987.8090000000001,"body":"So, absolutely. Michael Wolf sold directly."},{"startTime":981.0450000000001,"endTime":987.8090000000001,"body":"Alan Fletcher sold direct. All those that generation"},{"startTime":987.889,"endTime":995.854,"body":"of designers were the lead and they sold what"},{"startTime":987.889,"endTime":995.854,"body":"they designed. Absolutely. That's wonderful."},{"startTime":996.394,"endTime":1004.399,"body":"So let's go into design education. Um, what"},{"startTime":996.394,"endTime":1004.399,"body":"do you see is the biggest gap in design education"},{"startTime":1004.4390000000001,"endTime":1016.384,"body":"today? Um... I think a lot of the problem with,"},{"startTime":1004.4390000000001,"endTime":1016.384,"body":"well, let's start with students, is a lot of"},{"startTime":1016.445,"endTime":1025.111,"body":"it is if you spend your whole life looking in"},{"startTime":1016.445,"endTime":1025.111,"body":"computers and you don't actually experience"},{"startTime":1025.211,"endTime":1034.718,"body":"life and work out how to design without a computer,"},{"startTime":1025.211,"endTime":1034.718,"body":"which is how anyone in my age group, we all"},{"startTime":1034.758,"endTime":1039.357,"body":"learned to design. We never had a computer."},{"startTime":1034.758,"endTime":1039.357,"body":"All that the computer did for me was get rid"},{"startTime":1039.377,"endTime":1047.463,"body":"of four assistants. That's, it's the, it's make,"},{"startTime":1039.377,"endTime":1047.463,"body":"I think the computers have made a lot of work"},{"startTime":1047.483,"endTime":1054.6090000000002,"body":"bland. Um, and I think the computers are amazing."},{"startTime":1047.483,"endTime":1054.6090000000002,"body":"I mean, I think it's fantastic because I obviously"},{"startTime":1054.8890000000001,"endTime":1063.095,"body":"do all the work we do, but we're working on"},{"startTime":1054.8890000000001,"endTime":1063.095,"body":"a tea thing, a tea branding in Malaysia and"},{"startTime":1066.444,"endTime":1072.327,"body":"The ideas came from walking on the streets and"},{"startTime":1066.444,"endTime":1072.327,"body":"looking at the actual grids of the shops and"},{"startTime":1072.347,"endTime":1078.851,"body":"making the grid of the book where they work"},{"startTime":1072.347,"endTime":1078.851,"body":"the same as the grids in the shops. We're using"},{"startTime":1078.891,"endTime":1090.617,"body":"photographs I found in a flea market in Penang."},{"startTime":1078.891,"endTime":1090.617,"body":"It's not using things off the internet. We"},{"startTime":1090.637,"endTime":1096.412,"body":"need the woodcuts, so I've got books with woodcuts"},{"startTime":1090.637,"endTime":1096.412,"body":"in some of you. It's not... It's not the stuff"},{"startTime":1096.7920000000001,"endTime":1103.755,"body":"you can't do that research only on a computer."},{"startTime":1096.7920000000001,"endTime":1103.755,"body":"You know, I had better ideas walking around"},{"startTime":1103.775,"endTime":1109.958,"body":"flea markets or art galleries and I do sit in"},{"startTime":1103.775,"endTime":1109.958,"body":"looking on pins. Was it pins? I don't actually"},{"startTime":1110.058,"endTime":1116.521,"body":"use any of those pins set and all that stuff."},{"startTime":1110.058,"endTime":1116.521,"body":"I think it comes from, it comes through living."},{"startTime":1116.5410000000002,"endTime":1121.883,"body":"What makes a great designer is someone who's"},{"startTime":1116.5410000000002,"endTime":1121.883,"body":"very curious and they wanna know everything."},{"startTime":1122.68,"endTime":1128.0610000000001,"body":"and they want to know how it works or how to"},{"startTime":1122.68,"endTime":1128.0610000000001,"body":"do this. And they don't have to look in the"},{"startTime":1128.0810000000001,"endTime":1134.083,"body":"computer all the time. They have to go out and"},{"startTime":1128.0810000000001,"endTime":1134.083,"body":"experiment with it. Teaching in China was quite,"},{"startTime":1134.123,"endTime":1139.124,"body":"you know, the head of graphics came into one"},{"startTime":1134.123,"endTime":1139.124,"body":"art school and there's one of the Chinese students"},{"startTime":1139.184,"endTime":1144.586,"body":"got a fish and she's inking up the scales and"},{"startTime":1139.184,"endTime":1144.586,"body":"with a roll of printing it. And he just looked"},{"startTime":1144.626,"endTime":1150.087,"body":"at me and I said, oh, she's doing amazing work."},{"startTime":1144.626,"endTime":1150.087,"body":"Because they all became much more creative."},{"startTime":1150.328,"endTime":1153.755,"body":"because I wasn't allowed to use a computer to"},{"startTime":1150.328,"endTime":1153.755,"body":"get the imagery."},{"startTime":1157.352,"endTime":1162.236,"body":"And when you and I worked in ISM, you got me"},{"startTime":1157.352,"endTime":1162.236,"body":"involved in coming to do a talk in ISM, you"},{"startTime":1163.077,"endTime":1166.901,"body":"know, I was talking to the students and once"},{"startTime":1163.077,"endTime":1166.901,"body":"you get them into the vein, you know, we had"},{"startTime":1167.001,"endTime":1172.6660000000002,"body":"one student throwing spaghetti and his dog was"},{"startTime":1167.001,"endTime":1172.6660000000002,"body":"catching it. And that, the photographs of that"},{"startTime":1173.307,"endTime":1179.3120000000001,"body":"made a fantastic cookbook. And he had a fish"},{"startTime":1173.307,"endTime":1179.3120000000001,"body":"with his kitten underneath trying to get at"},{"startTime":1179.352,"endTime":1186.433,"body":"it. I mean, it was just fun. The students have"},{"startTime":1179.352,"endTime":1186.433,"body":"got the ability to be amazingly creative, but"},{"startTime":1186.4930000000002,"endTime":1191.8010000000002,"body":"I think we're not training them. You know, they"},{"startTime":1186.4930000000002,"endTime":1191.8010000000002,"body":"all want to get their marks and do this and"},{"startTime":1191.842,"endTime":1201.67,"body":"learn that. So it's an interesting... conundrum"},{"startTime":1191.842,"endTime":1201.67,"body":"of how you do that because We produce a lot"},{"startTime":1201.69,"endTime":1205.556,"body":"of what I call Mac monkeys I know all the programs"},{"startTime":1201.69,"endTime":1205.556,"body":"and how to do everything but we don't know"},{"startTime":1205.616,"endTime":1212.56,"body":"how to think or we don't know how to create"},{"startTime":1205.616,"endTime":1212.56,"body":"Brilliant. So what techniques are you using"},{"startTime":1212.92,"endTime":1222.123,"body":"to encourage students to get into that mode?"},{"startTime":1212.92,"endTime":1222.123,"body":"Um, I suppose it's talking to them. It's actually"},{"startTime":1223.5430000000001,"endTime":1227.9650000000001,"body":"doing one to ones when they're trying to do"},{"startTime":1223.5430000000001,"endTime":1227.9650000000001,"body":"ideas and beginning to explain, well, have"},{"startTime":1228.005,"endTime":1235.967,"body":"you done this? Do that? Try this? Look at that."},{"startTime":1228.005,"endTime":1235.967,"body":"None of which are answers to computers. I mean,"},{"startTime":1236.527,"endTime":1240.601,"body":"again, in China, one student says I said, I"},{"startTime":1236.527,"endTime":1240.601,"body":"don't know what to do. I said, well, what's"},{"startTime":1240.621,"endTime":1247.1870000000001,"body":"your favorite food? And he said, noodles. So"},{"startTime":1240.621,"endTime":1247.1870000000001,"body":"I said, well, go throw noodles at your girlfriend"},{"startTime":1247.207,"endTime":1252.3110000000001,"body":"and take a picture. And another girl said, what's"},{"startTime":1247.207,"endTime":1252.3110000000001,"body":"your option? She said, I'm really like fashion."},{"startTime":1252.3310000000001,"endTime":1257.375,"body":"So I said, take any food and turn it into a"},{"startTime":1252.3310000000001,"endTime":1257.375,"body":"dress. And she made a dress out of lettuce"},{"startTime":1257.4550000000002,"endTime":1265.5420000000001,"body":"leaves. It's freeing them up. That's what I"},{"startTime":1257.4550000000002,"endTime":1265.5420000000001,"body":"think it's about. It's just getting people"},{"startTime":1265.582,"endTime":1273.406,"body":"free up and try different things. Brilliant."},{"startTime":1265.582,"endTime":1273.406,"body":"So how do we get students more involved with"},{"startTime":1273.4460000000001,"endTime":1279.41,"body":"craftsmanship? Because it seems to me that with"},{"startTime":1273.4460000000001,"endTime":1279.41,"body":"the rise of digital, the answer is more craft,"},{"startTime":1279.47,"endTime":1286.0130000000001,"body":"more drawing. How do we get them to do more"},{"startTime":1279.47,"endTime":1286.0130000000001,"body":"of that? I think everyone should do life drawing"},{"startTime":1286.0330000000001,"endTime":1290.4550000000002,"body":"in an art school, whatever. If you're doing"},{"startTime":1286.0330000000001,"endTime":1290.4550000000002,"body":"a PhD, you should still be life drawing. Because"},{"startTime":1290.4950000000001,"endTime":1297.699,"body":"it's about training me a hand and I am a coordination."},{"startTime":1290.4950000000001,"endTime":1297.699,"body":"And in the same way that I still teach students."},{"startTime":1298.68,"endTime":1304.5230000000001,"body":"to do typography, but it's what if you've understood"},{"startTime":1298.68,"endTime":1304.5230000000001,"body":"letter 500 years and you've underdone you set"},{"startTime":1304.5430000000001,"endTime":1309.506,"body":"with some stick, a composing stick in your hand"},{"startTime":1304.5430000000001,"endTime":1309.506,"body":"and you've learned to type set with metal,"},{"startTime":1310.066,"endTime":1316.97,"body":"you begin to understand what's going on a computer."},{"startTime":1310.066,"endTime":1316.97,"body":"Whereas without it, there's no reference. It's"},{"startTime":1317.03,"endTime":1322.973,"body":"also this whole thing of learning from your"},{"startTime":1317.03,"endTime":1322.973,"body":"body and learning by doing something. As a"},{"startTime":1323.0330000000001,"endTime":1329.893,"body":"dyslexic, dyspraxic, I think I've got quite"},{"startTime":1323.0330000000001,"endTime":1329.893,"body":"a lot of ADT. I think I've scored on all points"},{"startTime":1329.913,"endTime":1336.217,"body":"with those. I found out I'm a neurodivergent."},{"startTime":1329.913,"endTime":1336.217,"body":"Feels like I've become a member of the X squad,"},{"startTime":1336.558,"endTime":1344.063,"body":"you know, the X-Men. I seem to have clocked"},{"startTime":1336.558,"endTime":1344.063,"body":"up nearly all of those things. What I'm getting"},{"startTime":1344.123,"endTime":1349.1870000000001,"body":"at is by using your body to do a process like"},{"startTime":1344.123,"endTime":1349.1870000000001,"body":"printing or getting involved in inking up type"},{"startTime":1350.348,"endTime":1357.112,"body":"or type setting, you begin to learn about something"},{"startTime":1350.348,"endTime":1357.112,"body":"three dimensional with your body. which you"},{"startTime":1357.152,"endTime":1362.296,"body":"could never do on a computer. But when you go"},{"startTime":1357.152,"endTime":1362.296,"body":"to a computer to type set, you've got a much"},{"startTime":1362.376,"endTime":1368.981,"body":"more understanding of how to set correctly and"},{"startTime":1362.376,"endTime":1368.981,"body":"how to look at the leading and everything else."},{"startTime":1369.342,"endTime":1375.1870000000001,"body":"And also the other point is, I don't think anyone's"},{"startTime":1369.342,"endTime":1375.1870000000001,"body":"really teaching typography that well. In terms"},{"startTime":1375.227,"endTime":1380.8310000000001,"body":"of that, I can spend half a day playing with"},{"startTime":1375.227,"endTime":1380.8310000000001,"body":"one font to get it to look right on a page"},{"startTime":1380.851,"endTime":1388.704,"body":"of type. You've got to really be able to play"},{"startTime":1380.851,"endTime":1388.704,"body":"with things. And I think play is the other"},{"startTime":1388.7440000000001,"endTime":1395.7910000000002,"body":"point, you need to play. Absolutely. So how"},{"startTime":1388.7440000000001,"endTime":1395.7910000000002,"body":"can we encourage because, because a lot of"},{"startTime":1395.851,"endTime":1402.178,"body":"the a lot of the way that students have learned"},{"startTime":1395.851,"endTime":1402.178,"body":"before coming to higher education, you know,"},{"startTime":1402.198,"endTime":1410.232,"body":"is the complete antithesis of what we're doing."},{"startTime":1402.198,"endTime":1410.232,"body":"So in a way we have to reprogram them. Yeah,"},{"startTime":1410.252,"endTime":1416.574,"body":"and also to make them, you know, I say that,"},{"startTime":1410.252,"endTime":1416.574,"body":"well, you know, we're going to do a job. Well,"},{"startTime":1416.614,"endTime":1423.957,"body":"why don't you work out where you can use your"},{"startTime":1416.614,"endTime":1423.957,"body":"skill sets to help society to go find a charity"},{"startTime":1424.017,"endTime":1428.239,"body":"or go find a local shop near the art school"},{"startTime":1424.017,"endTime":1428.239,"body":"and just say, well, for nothing, I'm going"},{"startTime":1428.259,"endTime":1433.481,"body":"to redo your branding. Yeah. Or for you go,"},{"startTime":1428.259,"endTime":1433.481,"body":"go to the hospital and say, what does no one"},{"startTime":1433.521,"endTime":1437.943,"body":"seem to understand, work out what it is and"},{"startTime":1433.521,"endTime":1437.943,"body":"do it. But you have to do that. You have to"},{"startTime":1438.0030000000002,"endTime":1445.044,"body":"physically go there. Talk. people and then you"},{"startTime":1438.0030000000002,"endTime":1445.044,"body":"begin to understand their problem and then"},{"startTime":1445.084,"endTime":1450.6090000000002,"body":"you can use your graphic skill set to solve"},{"startTime":1445.084,"endTime":1450.6090000000002,"body":"the problem. If you sit at a computer and do"},{"startTime":1450.6290000000001,"endTime":1452.751,"body":"a hypothetical brief, what are you going to"},{"startTime":1450.6290000000001,"endTime":1452.751,"body":"learn?"},{"startTime":1456.076,"endTime":1462.3220000000001,"body":"And I think that's the whole point is giving"},{"startTime":1456.076,"endTime":1462.3220000000001,"body":"them confidence to play and go do things. Is"},{"startTime":1462.342,"endTime":1468.347,"body":"that distinction between analog and digital?"},{"startTime":1462.342,"endTime":1468.347,"body":"Because a lot of places you just have computers."},{"startTime":1469.028,"endTime":1479.078,"body":"So there's no space that is not digital. So"},{"startTime":1469.028,"endTime":1479.078,"body":"these spaces are kind of, at least they used"},{"startTime":1479.098,"endTime":1485.722,"body":"to be under attack. Uh, they still are. But"},{"startTime":1479.098,"endTime":1485.722,"body":"if you can go, so if you go to the designer,"},{"startTime":1485.762,"endTime":1491.326,"body":"you could go, you can rise. All right. You can"},{"startTime":1485.762,"endTime":1491.326,"body":"do their press into silk screen. I've got computers"},{"startTime":1491.386,"endTime":1496.45,"body":"in the fashion, which are stitch. Yeah. So you"},{"startTime":1491.386,"endTime":1496.45,"body":"can actually do a book cover, which you program"},{"startTime":1496.51,"endTime":1501.833,"body":"it up and it stitches the type into it. Me."},{"startTime":1496.51,"endTime":1501.833,"body":"It's amazing. I I'd actually like to go to"},{"startTime":1501.873,"endTime":1508.345,"body":"an art school with all the, I mean, middle The"},{"startTime":1501.873,"endTime":1508.345,"body":"facilities are fantastic. I'd love to go there"},{"startTime":1508.365,"endTime":1512.708,"body":"because I could just, you can do everything."},{"startTime":1508.365,"endTime":1512.708,"body":"Three dimensional modeling. You could make"},{"startTime":1512.728,"endTime":1519.7930000000001,"body":"your own fonts, print them out. Yeah. It's fun."},{"startTime":1512.728,"endTime":1519.7930000000001,"body":"Oh, this is great. I mean, you've got to have"},{"startTime":1519.813,"endTime":1525.357,"body":"that. Sorry. You got to have it. The point is"},{"startTime":1519.813,"endTime":1525.357,"body":"you've got, you've got to train, train them"},{"startTime":1525.4170000000001,"endTime":1530.3600000000001,"body":"in actually wanting them to go try out how to"},{"startTime":1525.4170000000001,"endTime":1530.3600000000001,"body":"do risos, how do you do letterpress, watch"},{"startTime":1530.4,"endTime":1537.496,"body":"silkscreen. You got to get them involved in"},{"startTime":1530.4,"endTime":1537.496,"body":"things which are physical. Then they start"},{"startTime":1537.556,"endTime":1547.5420000000001,"body":"doing things more creative. Yeah. It's just"},{"startTime":1537.556,"endTime":1547.5420000000001,"body":"where they're coming from necessarily has not"},{"startTime":1547.602,"endTime":1552.625,"body":"encouraged them that. And because this generation"},{"startTime":1547.602,"endTime":1552.625,"body":"has been born with mobile phones, has been"},{"startTime":1552.665,"endTime":1561.3010000000002,"body":"born with digital world, it's very hard to get"},{"startTime":1552.665,"endTime":1561.3010000000002,"body":"them out of that. Yes, but I think to get at"},{"startTime":1561.3410000000001,"endTime":1568.8880000000001,"body":"creativity you have to get them out of it. Absolutely"},{"startTime":1561.3410000000001,"endTime":1568.8880000000001,"body":"absolutely because if everything if the only"},{"startTime":1568.928,"endTime":1578.015,"body":"thing you with all of the stuff including AI"},{"startTime":1568.928,"endTime":1578.015,"body":"You're only getting back what you put in Whereas"},{"startTime":1578.075,"endTime":1585.452,"body":"if you for real I think for really great creativity"},{"startTime":1578.075,"endTime":1585.452,"body":"insights is it's They call it research, which"},{"startTime":1585.5320000000002,"endTime":1589.813,"body":"is what designers have always done, which is"},{"startTime":1585.5320000000002,"endTime":1589.813,"body":"look at different things to see what the problem"},{"startTime":1589.873,"endTime":1598.275,"body":"is. Yeah. And I think the two dimensional world"},{"startTime":1589.873,"endTime":1598.275,"body":"of a look at the screen does not give you the"},{"startTime":1598.315,"endTime":1606.6180000000002,"body":"same experience as actually life. It'd be better"},{"startTime":1598.315,"endTime":1606.6180000000002,"body":"to go study anything but graphics. Don't look"},{"startTime":1606.6580000000001,"endTime":1613.996,"body":"in graphics books, go walk around art galleries,"},{"startTime":1606.6580000000001,"endTime":1613.996,"body":"flea markets, junk shops, and find... you'll"},{"startTime":1614.036,"endTime":1618.88,"body":"find answers to your design problems in the"},{"startTime":1614.036,"endTime":1618.88,"body":"most unexpected place. Absolutely. And also"},{"startTime":1618.9,"endTime":1624.625,"body":"the size of the screen. I mean, we used to draw"},{"startTime":1618.9,"endTime":1624.625,"body":"in A0 papers, you know, A0 was like you have"},{"startTime":1624.665,"endTime":1630.79,"body":"to use your whole body. Yeah, I still haven't"},{"startTime":1624.665,"endTime":1630.79,"body":"forgiven Yang Shikou for designing an A system."},{"startTime":1631.23,"endTime":1635.294,"body":"Yeah. It was much better when all the paper"},{"startTime":1631.23,"endTime":1635.294,"body":"was different sizes. Yes, yes, yes. But I'm"},{"startTime":1635.314,"endTime":1640.698,"body":"talking about the sheer size of the paper compared"},{"startTime":1635.314,"endTime":1640.698,"body":"to your body. Whereas, you know, even a big"},{"startTime":1640.738,"endTime":1648.479,"body":"screen is quite small. Yeah, I mean, I'm waiting"},{"startTime":1640.738,"endTime":1648.479,"body":"for AI to develop even further so I can really"},{"startTime":1648.519,"endTime":1651.887,"body":"begin to, I can just tell it how to lay out"},{"startTime":1648.519,"endTime":1651.887,"body":"what I want."},{"startTime":1655.036,"endTime":1662.44,"body":"I mean, we just, in Misak, again, we just were"},{"startTime":1655.036,"endTime":1662.44,"body":"doing a job and we took an 18th century woodcut,"},{"startTime":1663.78,"endTime":1670.444,"body":"they were English and I wanted him to look oriental,"},{"startTime":1663.78,"endTime":1670.444,"body":"so we just told Photoshop, can you turn that"},{"startTime":1670.5040000000001,"endTime":1676.548,"body":"into an oriental and it did a perfect job and"},{"startTime":1670.5040000000001,"endTime":1676.548,"body":"I'm like, that's fantastic. That would have"},{"startTime":1676.588,"endTime":1682.871,"body":"taken weeks in an old, you know, in the old"},{"startTime":1676.588,"endTime":1682.871,"body":"way of doing things. But you can only use bits"},{"startTime":1682.911,"endTime":1689.2530000000002,"body":"of it. The other bits he did were complete rubbish."},{"startTime":1682.911,"endTime":1689.2530000000002,"body":"I've actually done an experimentation because"},{"startTime":1689.2730000000001,"endTime":1695.355,"body":"we work by benchmarks. So the client and us"},{"startTime":1689.2730000000001,"endTime":1695.355,"body":"have got the same words and may judge what"},{"startTime":1695.375,"endTime":1701.517,"body":"we design by these benchmarks. And I've put"},{"startTime":1695.375,"endTime":1701.517,"body":"benchmarks into AI to see what it would come"},{"startTime":1701.577,"endTime":1710.839,"body":"up with. And so far, we're still winning. Yeah."},{"startTime":1701.577,"endTime":1710.839,"body":"Also with AI, a client has to articulately..."},{"startTime":1712.012,"endTime":1718.294,"body":"know what they want and be able to describe"},{"startTime":1712.012,"endTime":1718.294,"body":"it. So I think designers are safe because I've"},{"startTime":1718.334,"endTime":1724.757,"body":"never met a client who can do that. As long"},{"startTime":1718.334,"endTime":1724.757,"body":"as the client is looking for perfection or"},{"startTime":1724.797,"endTime":1730.96,"body":"as long as the client is looking for something"},{"startTime":1724.797,"endTime":1730.96,"body":"unique. Yeah, well, you mean a computer wouldn't"},{"startTime":1730.98,"endTime":1738.103,"body":"come up with a Nike tick. No, of course not."},{"startTime":1730.98,"endTime":1738.103,"body":"It's things like that, yeah. Brilliant, to"},{"startTime":1738.143,"endTime":1742.567,"body":"go into creativity, of course. What does design"},{"startTime":1738.143,"endTime":1742.567,"body":"thinking mean to you?"},{"startTime":1745.884,"endTime":1751.348,"body":"Well, again, it's like jargon, isn't it? It's"},{"startTime":1745.884,"endTime":1751.348,"body":"like, you know, design thinking to me is like,"},{"startTime":1751.569,"endTime":1756.4930000000002,"body":"you know, I'm a designer, so I think, but I"},{"startTime":1751.569,"endTime":1756.4930000000002,"body":"don't actually think. So again, my head, I"},{"startTime":1756.5130000000001,"endTime":1763.459,"body":"get so confused. I don't go, I find it sexually"},{"startTime":1756.5130000000001,"endTime":1763.459,"body":"complicated and miswired. I think design thinking"},{"startTime":1763.499,"endTime":1773.694,"body":"is when you're given something, like... We were"},{"startTime":1763.499,"endTime":1773.694,"body":"working on a bank years ago in Indonesia. It"},{"startTime":1773.714,"endTime":1779.539,"body":"was the largest state-owned bank in Indonesia."},{"startTime":1773.714,"endTime":1779.539,"body":"And it was called Bank Negara Indonesia 1946."},{"startTime":1781.6000000000001,"endTime":1785.123,"body":"And one of the brand qualities is they wanted"},{"startTime":1781.6000000000001,"endTime":1785.123,"body":"to be international. Well, I couldn't even"},{"startTime":1785.203,"endTime":1792.208,"body":"spell it. So I called it BNI Bank. Because it's"},{"startTime":1785.203,"endTime":1792.208,"body":"common sense, but common sense isn't common"},{"startTime":1792.549,"endTime":1798.9170000000001,"body":"anymore, it seems. But that's called design"},{"startTime":1792.549,"endTime":1798.9170000000001,"body":"thinking. I think it's visualizing things."},{"startTime":1798.957,"endTime":1804.04,"body":"People talk to me and I see pictures. Yeah."},{"startTime":1798.957,"endTime":1804.04,"body":"People describe things and I see symbols. It's"},{"startTime":1804.06,"endTime":1809.864,"body":"quite weird. But design thinking is like an"},{"startTime":1804.06,"endTime":1809.864,"body":"artist. If you're an artist, you cook like"},{"startTime":1809.884,"endTime":1814.027,"body":"an artist, you paint like an artist, or you"},{"startTime":1809.884,"endTime":1814.027,"body":"sculpt. You're still an artist. And the same"},{"startTime":1814.047,"endTime":1820.092,"body":"with designers. I think the way designers work"},{"startTime":1814.047,"endTime":1820.092,"body":"and their heads are wired, whatever they do,"},{"startTime":1821.573,"endTime":1826.565,"body":"it is a way of looking at the world and how"},{"startTime":1821.573,"endTime":1826.565,"body":"to actually communicate. communicate it to"},{"startTime":1826.605,"endTime":1834.52,"body":"make it simpler or to say exactly what it's"},{"startTime":1826.605,"endTime":1834.52,"body":"meant to be saying. And it's no big thing."},{"startTime":1834.56,"endTime":1842.8010000000002,"body":"It's just the fact you're designing your thing."},{"startTime":1834.56,"endTime":1842.8010000000002,"body":"Absolutely. Do you think though designers today"},{"startTime":1842.8410000000001,"endTime":1847.502,"body":"are taking enough risks because, you know, your,"},{"startTime":1842.8410000000001,"endTime":1847.502,"body":"your process can, can give you amazing ideas,"},{"startTime":1847.622,"endTime":1851.563,"body":"but to actually apply these ideas and put them"},{"startTime":1847.622,"endTime":1851.563,"body":"in front of the client, do you think that there's"},{"startTime":1851.583,"endTime":1858.025,"body":"enough risk, risk taking in design today? I"},{"startTime":1851.583,"endTime":1858.025,"body":"think that translates if you've got any balls."},{"startTime":1859.085,"endTime":1866.807,"body":"Um, I think you've got to have the courage to"},{"startTime":1859.085,"endTime":1866.807,"body":"stick by what you're doing. It's also great."},{"startTime":1866.827,"endTime":1873.682,"body":"You know, It's great to be able to sell. You've"},{"startTime":1866.827,"endTime":1873.682,"body":"got to stand up and sell what you believe is"},{"startTime":1873.702,"endTime":1879.2240000000002,"body":"the right solution for that problem. But you"},{"startTime":1873.702,"endTime":1879.2240000000002,"body":"have to break that down before you get to that"},{"startTime":1879.284,"endTime":1886.627,"body":"stage. You break that stage down in what familiarization"},{"startTime":1879.284,"endTime":1886.627,"body":"and the analytical process of what you're doing."},{"startTime":1887.448,"endTime":1892.029,"body":"So if it's a Vietnamese bank, you know, like"},{"startTime":1887.448,"endTime":1892.029,"body":"we don't want to look like anyone else. So"},{"startTime":1892.069,"endTime":1897.988,"body":"you show them every Vietnamese bank logo. They've"},{"startTime":1892.069,"endTime":1897.988,"body":"in Vietnam. And we go, well, if you don't want"},{"startTime":1898.008,"endTime":1902.0910000000001,"body":"to look like any of those, you can look like"},{"startTime":1898.008,"endTime":1902.0910000000001,"body":"this. We go, that's different. And you go,"},{"startTime":1902.131,"endTime":1908.835,"body":"yes, I know. But if you don't want to look like"},{"startTime":1902.131,"endTime":1908.835,"body":"that, you can look like this. And that begins,"},{"startTime":1909.1960000000001,"endTime":1916.761,"body":"you can visually show people things. It's not"},{"startTime":1909.1960000000001,"endTime":1916.761,"body":"trying to be an MBA business analyst. It's"},{"startTime":1916.861,"endTime":1923.308,"body":"where, you know, if again, the banking, you"},{"startTime":1916.861,"endTime":1923.308,"body":"know, We own orange and blue, where you actually"},{"startTime":1923.348,"endTime":1926.69,"body":"walk around Vietnam and the petrol station's"},{"startTime":1923.348,"endTime":1926.69,"body":"in orange and blue, everything's in orange."},{"startTime":1926.73,"endTime":1934.434,"body":"I mean, you don't own the colour. And then you"},{"startTime":1926.73,"endTime":1934.434,"body":"show them visually. The thing is, you don't"},{"startTime":1934.4940000000001,"endTime":1942.266,"body":"need the verbal language, you can show nearly"},{"startTime":1934.4940000000001,"endTime":1942.266,"body":"everything visually. I have a little book which"},{"startTime":1942.306,"endTime":1947.477,"body":"is full of pictures and it works in any language."},{"startTime":1942.306,"endTime":1947.477,"body":"You know, I can point at a fish and I get fish"},{"startTime":1947.517,"endTime":1951.546,"body":"and I can point at a bowl of rice and I get"},{"startTime":1947.517,"endTime":1951.546,"body":"rice. It's a little book, about this big, it's"},{"startTime":1951.566,"endTime":1952.227,"body":"just full of pictures."},{"startTime":1955.512,"endTime":1964.438,"body":"You don't need words. You do for certain things."},{"startTime":1955.512,"endTime":1964.438,"body":"You can actually use pictures to do anything."},{"startTime":1964.499,"endTime":1970.463,"body":"So showing clients pictures of things is much"},{"startTime":1964.499,"endTime":1970.463,"body":"harder for them to intellectualize their way"},{"startTime":1970.563,"endTime":1970.843,"body":"out of."},{"startTime":1974.22,"endTime":1979.108,"body":"Okay, okay, okay. I get that. And what other"},{"startTime":1974.22,"endTime":1979.108,"body":"techniques? I'm glad you do because half the"},{"startTime":1979.1280000000002,"endTime":1983.4550000000002,"body":"time I don't think, I think I don't get it myself,"},{"startTime":1979.1280000000002,"endTime":1983.4550000000002,"body":"but anyways. What, what other techniques you"},{"startTime":1983.556,"endTime":1988.143,"body":"use to balance between client expectations and"},{"startTime":1983.556,"endTime":1988.143,"body":"your, and your creativity."},{"startTime":1991.787,"endTime":1991.952,"body":"Um..."},{"startTime":1995.864,"endTime":2000.9270000000001,"body":"Well, I think if you answer the brief correctly,"},{"startTime":1995.864,"endTime":2000.9270000000001,"body":"then the client's happy and you're happy. So"},{"startTime":2000.967,"endTime":2007.251,"body":"it comes back the answer to any design problems"},{"startTime":2000.967,"endTime":2007.251,"body":"in the brief. So if you haven't broken it down"},{"startTime":2007.3110000000001,"endTime":2015.117,"body":"and educated the client just to talk into a"},{"startTime":2007.3110000000001,"endTime":2015.117,"body":"creative visual world and they don't know how"},{"startTime":2015.1570000000002,"endTime":2023.721,"body":"to talk or express themselves, then you're 50%"},{"startTime":2015.1570000000002,"endTime":2023.721,"body":"lost already. So you're saying that it's how"},{"startTime":2023.741,"endTime":2030.4660000000001,"body":"you educate, it's in how you educate the client."},{"startTime":2023.741,"endTime":2030.4660000000001,"body":"I think you have to certain extent. Talking"},{"startTime":2030.526,"endTime":2034.549,"body":"male language in your language and get them"},{"startTime":2030.526,"endTime":2034.549,"body":"to understand and agree on what you're trying"},{"startTime":2034.569,"endTime":2042.334,"body":"to do, i.e. But benchmarks gives you the ability"},{"startTime":2034.569,"endTime":2042.334,"body":"to analyze, talk to the client. They have a"},{"startTime":2042.394,"endTime":2048.478,"body":"set of words by which you're designing against."},{"startTime":2042.394,"endTime":2048.478,"body":"So when we did Burton's, the client said, well,"},{"startTime":2048.578,"endTime":2053.58,"body":"okay, we got it. The brief is. We want to be"},{"startTime":2048.578,"endTime":2053.58,"body":"traditionally English. We want street cred."},{"startTime":2055.723,"endTime":2062.977,"body":"We want a link back to the owner. And we want"},{"startTime":2055.723,"endTime":2062.977,"body":"humor. and it's a fashion retailer. So we ended"},{"startTime":2063.037,"endTime":2067.96,"body":"up with British Bulldog, which was English,"},{"startTime":2063.037,"endTime":2067.96,"body":"with Ray Burns on, which was street cred at"},{"startTime":2067.98,"endTime":2073.243,"body":"that time. Humor was it was a British Bulldog"},{"startTime":2067.98,"endTime":2073.243,"body":"wearing sunglasses and the owner was called"},{"startTime":2073.303,"endTime":2079.727,"body":"Montague, so the dog got called Montague. So"},{"startTime":2073.303,"endTime":2079.727,"body":"when the client sees that, he goes, I've got"},{"startTime":2079.747,"endTime":2080.687,"body":"to answer everything."},{"startTime":2084.016,"endTime":2089.245,"body":"So it comes again about breaking it down. It"},{"startTime":2084.016,"endTime":2089.245,"body":"gives you the idea, but it also gives you a"},{"startTime":2089.265,"endTime":2094.375,"body":"way of the client. Normally by the time you"},{"startTime":2089.265,"endTime":2094.375,"body":"get the client to agree on a set of words,"},{"startTime":2095.217,"endTime":2096.679,"body":"they think you can't answer it anyway."},{"startTime":2100.112,"endTime":2103.774,"body":"but the trick is answering what the brand's"},{"startTime":2100.112,"endTime":2103.774,"body":"trying to do."},{"startTime":2106.7960000000003,"endTime":2115.468,"body":"Absolutely. And also it's like designers would"},{"startTime":2106.7960000000003,"endTime":2115.468,"body":"do, you can pick up a book and if it's centered"},{"startTime":2115.5080000000003,"endTime":2120.275,"body":"on a computer and not done visually, you can"},{"startTime":2115.5080000000003,"endTime":2120.275,"body":"work out the age of a designer. Because they've"},{"startTime":2120.315,"endTime":2128.549,"body":"never actually printed it out, trimmed the page"},{"startTime":2120.315,"endTime":2128.549,"body":"and looked at it in the book. It's just, you"},{"startTime":2129.67,"endTime":2136.214,"body":"know, if I was in an antiquarian, a very high"},{"startTime":2129.67,"endTime":2136.214,"body":"powered antiquarian book dealer, and he said,"},{"startTime":2136.254,"endTime":2140.237,"body":"Phil, our catalogs look terrible. I said, well,"},{"startTime":2136.254,"endTime":2140.237,"body":"all you got to do is copy what's on your shelf."},{"startTime":2140.877,"endTime":2144.66,"body":"There's 400 years of technology and thinking"},{"startTime":2140.877,"endTime":2144.66,"body":"behind that. It's all in the golden section."},{"startTime":2144.88,"endTime":2149.283,"body":"The type's readable. It looks fantastic. Just"},{"startTime":2144.88,"endTime":2149.283,"body":"copy it. You do a better job than hiring the"},{"startTime":2149.323,"endTime":2150.723,"body":"designer. You've got to do that."},{"startTime":2154.636,"endTime":2157.176,"body":"I didn't get the job because he got the answer."},{"startTime":2154.636,"endTime":2157.176,"body":"It's not a good one."},{"startTime":2160.657,"endTime":2167.399,"body":"You coined the term blandism to describe the"},{"startTime":2160.657,"endTime":2167.399,"body":"homogenization of branding. Why do you say"},{"startTime":2167.419,"endTime":2172.14,"body":"something about that before? Why do you think"},{"startTime":2167.419,"endTime":2172.14,"body":"this is happening? I think it's I think we've"},{"startTime":2172.18,"endTime":2179.342,"body":"gone through it. We're coming out of it. Okay."},{"startTime":2172.18,"endTime":2179.342,"body":"I think at one stage Google all of that lot"},{"startTime":2179.362,"endTime":2185.0190000000002,"body":"began to look the same. They all begin to come"},{"startTime":2179.362,"endTime":2185.0190000000002,"body":"together. and then now they're beginning to"},{"startTime":2185.059,"endTime":2191.793,"body":"go apart again. It was very easy to sell a line"},{"startTime":2185.059,"endTime":2191.793,"body":"of type, you know, put a couple of colours"},{"startTime":2191.833,"endTime":2200.628,"body":"on the letters and say this is a great brand."},{"startTime":2191.833,"endTime":2200.628,"body":"Yeah. But I mean, I think with branding, you"},{"startTime":2200.668,"endTime":2207.735,"body":"have to look at smell. You've got to look at"},{"startTime":2200.668,"endTime":2207.735,"body":"sound. You've got to build a visual language."},{"startTime":2207.855,"endTime":2212.079,"body":"It's still a complicated thing to get every"},{"startTime":2207.855,"endTime":2212.079,"body":"element of it to work well."},{"startTime":2217.1040000000003,"endTime":2226.51,"body":"And also you do have to have a brave client."},{"startTime":2217.1040000000003,"endTime":2226.51,"body":"That's a blessing. Yeah, but I start every"},{"startTime":2226.57,"endTime":2231.974,"body":"press, but when I'm doing a credential presentation,"},{"startTime":2226.57,"endTime":2231.974,"body":"the second slide says there is no boring design."},{"startTime":2232.3740000000003,"endTime":2238.679,"body":"There is only boring designers or worse boring"},{"startTime":2232.3740000000003,"endTime":2238.679,"body":"clients. So we either get thrown out or they"},{"startTime":2238.719,"endTime":2247.1730000000002,"body":"know what they're going to do. We don't hold"},{"startTime":2238.719,"endTime":2247.1730000000002,"body":"back when we go for good. Because there is"},{"startTime":2247.213,"endTime":2253.221,"body":"no boring designers, boring designers. Yeah."},{"startTime":2247.213,"endTime":2253.221,"body":"You don't become an interesting designer if"},{"startTime":2253.241,"endTime":2260.513,"body":"you don't learn how to live. I mean, I always"},{"startTime":2253.241,"endTime":2260.513,"body":"remember John Higgity saying, he read the..."},{"startTime":2264.2580000000003,"endTime":2274.181,"body":"He read, I think, The Economist every week."},{"startTime":2264.2580000000003,"endTime":2274.181,"body":"because it fed his brain with information which"},{"startTime":2274.241,"endTime":2281.569,"body":"gave him ideas. So unless you're reading things,"},{"startTime":2274.241,"endTime":2281.569,"body":"looking at different things, learning about"},{"startTime":2281.629,"endTime":2287.375,"body":"things, you're not feeding that muscle in your"},{"startTime":2281.629,"endTime":2287.375,"body":"head which is the creative ideas place."},{"startTime":2292.208,"endTime":2300.572,"body":"So I think that's the other point, you've got"},{"startTime":2292.208,"endTime":2300.572,"body":"to live an interesting life. So to go back"},{"startTime":2300.592,"endTime":2306.859,"body":"to students and education, what would you say"},{"startTime":2300.592,"endTime":2306.859,"body":"to students, again, trying to make it in the"},{"startTime":2306.879,"endTime":2315.002,"body":"real world? I think you always have to go 10"},{"startTime":2306.879,"endTime":2315.002,"body":"miles further than you thought you'd have to"},{"startTime":2315.042,"endTime":2325.348,"body":"go. And, you know, when we're designing, sometimes"},{"startTime":2315.042,"endTime":2325.348,"body":"we design a book cover, we design what the"},{"startTime":2325.368,"endTime":2330.451,"body":"clients ask for, and then we design what we"},{"startTime":2325.368,"endTime":2330.451,"body":"want, and we show it. We use graphics to sell"},{"startTime":2330.491,"endTime":2336.355,"body":"it. I've never yet had them choose the one they"},{"startTime":2330.491,"endTime":2336.355,"body":"wanted. I've always chosen the one because"},{"startTime":2336.375,"endTime":2344.53,"body":"you're using graphics to sell it. So students,"},{"startTime":2336.375,"endTime":2344.53,"body":"I think it's a hard, hard to break into the"},{"startTime":2344.571,"endTime":2349.556,"body":"industry. It's never been easier. It's never"},{"startTime":2344.571,"endTime":2349.556,"body":"been easy and it's still, I think it's probably"},{"startTime":2349.596,"endTime":2356.303,"body":"harder now anyway. But again, it's, you keep"},{"startTime":2349.596,"endTime":2356.303,"body":"knocking on the door and you'll break it down."},{"startTime":2359.6440000000002,"endTime":2364.079,"body":"Do you feel that students are less resilient"},{"startTime":2359.6440000000002,"endTime":2364.079,"body":"now? And how do they, yeah."},{"startTime":2368.204,"endTime":2374.427,"body":"I think, I mean, I think it's partly to do with,"},{"startTime":2368.204,"endTime":2374.427,"body":"you know, everyone, you know, everyone, everyone"},{"startTime":2374.707,"endTime":2379.59,"body":"can do certain things. So they think they know"},{"startTime":2374.707,"endTime":2379.59,"body":"how to do graphic design, if they can use the"},{"startTime":2379.61,"endTime":2386.454,"body":"computer. Yeah. And I think the point is, it"},{"startTime":2379.61,"endTime":2386.454,"body":"is a, I think it's a trade. And I think commercial"},{"startTime":2386.574,"endTime":2393.358,"body":"art is a close of terminology, um, from graphic"},{"startTime":2386.574,"endTime":2393.358,"body":"design. No, I'm most talking about the, the"},{"startTime":2393.398,"endTime":2399.501,"body":"setbacks, you know, the resilience. I mean,"},{"startTime":2393.398,"endTime":2399.501,"body":"What you said about people trying. Yeah, I"},{"startTime":2399.521,"endTime":2402.742,"body":"always worked on the assumption I might not"},{"startTime":2399.521,"endTime":2402.742,"body":"be a very good designer, but I'd be a last"},{"startTime":2402.782,"endTime":2412.726,"body":"man standing. And also you've got to, a student"},{"startTime":2402.782,"endTime":2412.726,"body":"has to be exceptionally resilient because a"},{"startTime":2412.786,"endTime":2418.648,"body":"lot of ways of teaching in art school is that"},{"startTime":2412.786,"endTime":2418.648,"body":"you knock them down and they get back up. Or"},{"startTime":2418.668,"endTime":2424.271,"body":"you criticize them and they take it personally."},{"startTime":2418.668,"endTime":2424.271,"body":"I mean, you've actually, if you want a plant"},{"startTime":2424.291,"endTime":2431.0570000000002,"body":"to grow, it's not the normal way. you teach"},{"startTime":2424.291,"endTime":2431.0570000000002,"body":"art. I think they've got to realise it's not"},{"startTime":2431.097,"endTime":2436.76,"body":"about them, it's about what they're drawing"},{"startTime":2431.097,"endTime":2436.76,"body":"or what they're communicating. And I think"},{"startTime":2436.84,"endTime":2443.123,"body":"you need to culture, you need to hold and nurture"},{"startTime":2436.84,"endTime":2443.123,"body":"something to make it grow and I think there's"},{"startTime":2443.163,"endTime":2451.206,"body":"an aspect in art school where you help them"},{"startTime":2443.163,"endTime":2451.206,"body":"to see what they can do more than just tell"},{"startTime":2451.226,"endTime":2455.324,"body":"them they don't, you know, it's not very good"},{"startTime":2451.226,"endTime":2455.324,"body":"go away and do it again. I mean, that doesn't"},{"startTime":2455.364,"endTime":2463.789,"body":"get you doesn't get the student anywhere. I"},{"startTime":2455.364,"endTime":2463.789,"body":"think you, I think it's, it's a, it's got to"},{"startTime":2463.809,"endTime":2469.572,"body":"be a marriage of both things. Yeah. And I think"},{"startTime":2463.809,"endTime":2469.572,"body":"you've got to have people, you've got to have"},{"startTime":2469.632,"endTime":2475.535,"body":"educators who have also to certainly understanding"},{"startTime":2469.632,"endTime":2475.535,"body":"of what it's like to work in the real world."},{"startTime":2479.4120000000003,"endTime":2483.178,"body":"and art school should be the incubation place"},{"startTime":2479.4120000000003,"endTime":2483.178,"body":"for a phenomenal talent."},{"startTime":2487.556,"endTime":2491.0370000000003,"body":"And I still like the fact that Central never"},{"startTime":2487.556,"endTime":2491.0370000000003,"body":"trained graphic designers. They just trained"},{"startTime":2491.0570000000002,"endTime":2497.601,"body":"people to think. But they also have to train"},{"startTime":2491.0570000000002,"endTime":2497.601,"body":"a number of fantastic designers, which kept"},{"startTime":2497.641,"endTime":2506.165,"body":"went through the Central like Fletcher. But"},{"startTime":2497.641,"endTime":2506.165,"body":"get all that mob, all John McCartney, all those"},{"startTime":2506.505,"endTime":2510.607,"body":"loads of them. They all came from that here,"},{"startTime":2506.505,"endTime":2510.607,"body":"from that understanding and teaching."},{"startTime":2514.48,"endTime":2522.8250000000003,"body":"Tell us about internships and about paid or"},{"startTime":2514.48,"endTime":2522.8250000000003,"body":"unpaid internships or what students be doing,"},{"startTime":2522.8650000000002,"endTime":2524.506,"body":"how they need to secure an internship."},{"startTime":2527.669,"endTime":2532.232,"body":"Well, I think it has to be, I've written about"},{"startTime":2527.669,"endTime":2532.232,"body":"that in my book. Yeah. It's another plug for"},{"startTime":2532.272,"endTime":2540.838,"body":"the book. Yeah. I think it has to be a trade,"},{"startTime":2532.272,"endTime":2540.838,"body":"a trade off so that they get to learn something."},{"startTime":2541.058,"endTime":2547.7580000000003,"body":"And then through them learning and doing something."},{"startTime":2541.058,"endTime":2547.7580000000003,"body":"the employee gets help with their work. I think"},{"startTime":2548.198,"endTime":2554.962,"body":"doing internships, we always have an intern,"},{"startTime":2548.198,"endTime":2554.962,"body":"but they come for a year and they come after"},{"startTime":2555.022,"endTime":2561.005,"body":"two years in art school. So they do two years"},{"startTime":2555.022,"endTime":2561.005,"body":"in an art school and the third year spent in"},{"startTime":2561.065,"endTime":2571.771,"body":"industry. And the whole, they're, we're getting,"},{"startTime":2561.065,"endTime":2571.771,"body":"they get trained by the studio and me one-to-one."},{"startTime":2572.524,"endTime":2578.209,"body":"for a year. So when they go back to art school,"},{"startTime":2572.524,"endTime":2578.209,"body":"hopefully now they've got a better skill set"},{"startTime":2578.309,"endTime":2583.714,"body":"and a better understanding and they can actually"},{"startTime":2578.309,"endTime":2583.714,"body":"do more. And I don't think you get back reality"},{"startTime":2583.914,"endTime":2594.444,"body":"if you haven't done any internships. I mean,"},{"startTime":2583.914,"endTime":2594.444,"body":"I think in 17 years we've got 16 grade A, or"},{"startTime":2594.504,"endTime":2603.214,"body":"16 top ones for degrees. And I think that's"},{"startTime":2594.504,"endTime":2603.214,"body":"to do with the fact they're better armed when"},{"startTime":2603.234,"endTime":2608.0570000000002,"body":"they go back to art school. And they realize"},{"startTime":2603.234,"endTime":2608.0570000000002,"body":"that now's that last year is the only time"},{"startTime":2608.077,"endTime":2613.9210000000003,"body":"when they can really to be themselves and do"},{"startTime":2608.077,"endTime":2613.9210000000003,"body":"their work their way to show the world what"},{"startTime":2613.981,"endTime":2620.246,"body":"they can do. I think that has improved them."},{"startTime":2613.981,"endTime":2620.246,"body":"If you've been in art school for three years"},{"startTime":2620.486,"endTime":2627.31,"body":"and then an internship, it depends how good"},{"startTime":2620.486,"endTime":2627.31,"body":"the design company is, if it's worth doing."},{"startTime":2629.496,"endTime":2633.997,"body":"mean your jobs then there's no point that's"},{"startTime":2629.496,"endTime":2633.997,"body":"not you're not learning anything. You need"},{"startTime":2634.0370000000003,"endTime":2640.38,"body":"to go find who you think is the best designer"},{"startTime":2634.0370000000003,"endTime":2640.38,"body":"you know and see if you can learn off them."},{"startTime":2641.68,"endTime":2650.6240000000003,"body":"But that's never really changed. But I think"},{"startTime":2641.68,"endTime":2650.6240000000003,"body":"internships should be paid if they're working"},{"startTime":2651.484,"endTime":2658.207,"body":"in one form or another. We've got minimum wage"},{"startTime":2651.484,"endTime":2658.207,"body":"now so that actually has stopped quite a lot"},{"startTime":2658.227,"endTime":2663.869,"body":"of internships. after when you finish start"},{"startTime":2658.227,"endTime":2663.869,"body":"school because legally you can't employ anyone"},{"startTime":2663.9500000000003,"endTime":2673.715,"body":"under who's not a minimum wage. So that has"},{"startTime":2663.9500000000003,"endTime":2673.715,"body":"an effect. But yeah, you got, it's got to be"},{"startTime":2673.755,"endTime":2680.482,"body":"symbiotic. You both got to get something from"},{"startTime":2673.755,"endTime":2680.482,"body":"it. It's no good if one of you is not getting"},{"startTime":2680.522,"endTime":2687.587,"body":"anything. This doesn't work. That's brilliant."},{"startTime":2680.522,"endTime":2687.587,"body":"What advice would you like to leave us with?"},{"startTime":2690.052,"endTime":2701.188,"body":"Oh, always be yourself. And ignore half the"},{"startTime":2690.052,"endTime":2701.188,"body":"advice you get and just go have some fun. Because"},{"startTime":2701.248,"endTime":2705.975,"body":"I think having fun and doing what you love will"},{"startTime":2701.248,"endTime":2705.975,"body":"get you through anything."},{"startTime":2709.148,"endTime":2714.3920000000003,"body":"That's wonderful. That's wonderful. Well, Phil,"},{"startTime":2709.148,"endTime":2714.3920000000003,"body":"thank you so much. So this wonderful conversation."},{"startTime":2715.513,"endTime":2720.978,"body":"So I hope I'm around when you have the 200 and"},{"startTime":2715.513,"endTime":2720.978,"body":"300. Definitely. And of course you will be."},{"startTime":2720.998,"endTime":2727.183,"body":"Of course you will be. Thank you so much. Thank"},{"startTime":2720.998,"endTime":2727.183,"body":"you. All the best. Bye bye."}]}