Jason Daye 
Hey, friends, it's Jason Daye. Welcome to another exciting episode of FrontStage BackStage. I'm always encouraged when I have the opportunity to sit down with today's guest. We have Max Lucado with us. Max is America's best-selling inspirational author, with over 150 million products in print, including his latest book entitled Tame Your Thoughts. Now, Christianity Today calls Max America's pastor. Reader's Digest refers to Max as the greatest, best preacher in America, but my new favorite comes from Dallas Morning News, which calls Max the Ted Lasso of pastors. But beyond all of that, Max is a devoted Christ-follower, an incredible shepherd. He's a loving family man, a wonderful friend. At this time, I'd like to welcome Max Lucado back to the show. Max, good to see you, brother.

Max Lucado 
Jason, great to see you. You look great. Thanks for this opportunity.

Jason Daye 
Yeah, brother, you're looking good, too. It's always great to sit down and chat with you a little bit. You've been spending a lot of time recently, Max, exploring, kind of, our thought world, and what's going on in our minds. You've been doing a lot of thinking about thinking. And I'm curious, Max, what's kind of the catalyst that has led you to kind of jump into this world?

Max Lucado 
I like that. Thinking about thinking. That would have been a good subtitle. There you go. Think about what you think about. Well, there are so many answers to that single question. I think the impetus to really dive in on helping people manage their thoughts came from reading some of the very alarming statistics that we're reading today, not just about young people, but primarily about young people. 42% of teenagers say they live with pervasive negative thoughts of hopelessness. 42%, and those are teenagers, Jason. That should be the time when they're having so much fun, they're excited, and they're making dreams about the future. There are many reasons for that. The other statistic for teenagers is that 22% have contemplated suicide in the prior six months, so that just sucks the air out of the lungs. We, adults, are not exempt. One out of five adults says they live with symptoms of depression. I don't think that means they've been clinically diagnosed, but at least from their perspective, they feel like they're depressed. They spend their day under the gray cloud of hopelessness or sadness. One out of five. That's a lot of people. You think about walking into a grocery store, and every fifth person you see doesn't want to get out of bed or doesn't have much hope in their heart. And so those statistics really caught my attention. I think reading those made me think, is there something that we could do or say? All of my books come out of sermons. And so I had created a sermon series for the church, and it seemed to be well-received, so we turned it into this book,

Jason Daye 
Yeah. That makes sense. And it's true that we look around us, and there are a lot of challenges that people are having in their minds and the way they're feeling about life. One of the things, as I was reading the book, Max, incredible, very, very helpful. One of the things that I thought about was some of the conversations that I've had, I'm sure other pastors, ministry leaders, probably you yourself, Max, have had with people around this idea of managing our lives by managing our thoughts. I've had people say something to the effect of, Well, Jason, you're a hopeful person. You're a positive person, right? You're a ministry guy. That may work for you, right? That might come naturally for you, even, but I can't control my thoughts. I have different experiences. Max, how do we speak into people's lives who are kind of thinking, Well, you're a positive person. That's just how God made you. I'm different.

Max Lucado 
That's a tremendous question. I've heard the phrase, I'm a worrier. My mom was a worrier. I'll always be a worrier. Or I'll never make much out of my life. My dad didn't, and I'm doomed to do the same. We behave sometimes like we inherit our thoughts, like we inherit our skin color or hair color, and that has a bit of truth in it in the sense that those who raise us have a huge influence, I mean, a huge influence, over our thought patterns, but that is never to say that they have complete control over our thought patterns. So two quick answers. One is, from a spiritual standpoint, we are promised through scripture that we don't have to be conformed to this world, but that we can be transformed by the renewing of our minds. That's Romans 12:2. It's a familiar scripture, deservedly so, because it tells us there is an attempt to conform our thinking. And in the book, I point out that's from the devil. He wants to conform our thinking to the patterns of society, but the Holy Spirit will transform our thoughts. He will transform our thoughts as we think, as we learn to think, more and more like Jesus thought. So that's the spiritual approach to that question. But, and then there's also a scientific approach to this question, and I'm quick to acknowledge I'm not a neuroscientist. No, I can barely comb my hair, much less treat someone's brain. But, I did engage some neuroscientists, the help of several really respected neuroscientists, and they helped me understand the meaning of the phrase neuroplasticity. I think it's becoming more and more of a common phrase, but in case a person has not heard it, it's the idea that our brains are malleable, physically malleable. They change over our lives. Your brain is not a completed and published manuscript. It's a book in progress. It's editable. It's changeable. And so when the Scripture says, Don't be conformed, but be transformed, the apostle Paul never, I'm sure, had heard that phrase neuroplasticity. But a neurosurgeon would say, Okay, yeah, that's a possibility because we're not stuck with our thoughts and with our brain patterns. You see, our brains have ruts in them, and that literally is a technical term. There are ruts, and it's through these ruts that the synapse is fired. And the reason I brush my teeth today with my right hand instead of my left hand is because there's a certain crevice, there's a certain indentation, and I've developed that. I don't even have to think about it. Now, if I were to try to brush my teeth with my left hand, well, there's no rut for that, and it would take me a while to create one. We call that learning a new habit. And so our thought patterns are basically habitual patterns, habits of thinking, in which a problem comes our way and somebody like Jason says, Okay, I'm going to be fine. I've dealt with this before, and a friend of Jason says, Well, that's just the way you are. You just have that. And the right answer would be, well, that is the way you are, but that doesn't mean you can't be that way. And so that's the hope of this book, that the Lord would use the book to convince people that just because you're grumpy or a worrywart today doesn't mean you'll have to be that way the rest of your life.

Jason Daye 
Yeah. And I love that, Max, because that is one recognizing that there are these patterns that we've developed, as you said, these ruts, these habits, but we're not stuck with them. That we can indeed change and influence those, but it takes work, and that's one thing to make a point of. It's like, you have to commit to it. You have to be willing to put the work in. But if you're willing to put the work in, then you can see these changes.

Max Lucado 
And what work is more important? What matters more? So every action begins with a thought. Every behavior begins with a belief, and so if you want your actions to be better tomorrow, do your best to practice careful thinking today. Here's a practical example, if I can. So, we're recording this on a Tuesday. The toughest day of the week for me is a Monday, and the reason is because I preach three times on Sunday, and then I stand out in the foyer and I greet people, and people are surprised to know really I'm more of an introvert than an extrovert, and every time I'm chatting or conversing, I'm depleting my tank. It's been that way for 40 years. I get it. I've always been that way. I'm more of an introvert. So, by the time Monday comes around, I'm kind of, sky looks kind of gray today. I don't care how blue it is. My wife knows to expect it, and gratefully, I've come to expect it. Okay, so just yesterday, I felt kind of like I was slugging through the day. I don't care. Good news didn't feel as good. Bad news felt worse than bad. So, that's just the nature of that day. Now I could, if I wasn't careful, allow that to spiral and say some things, or lash out, make some choices, or treat my mood inappropriately with some chemical or something like that. That would be a bad decision. But, gratefully, I've learned, okay, those are just thoughts. I'm not going to let those thoughts turn into an unhealthy action. I acknowledge that. And there were times, maybe four or five times during the day, Jason, I said, Lord, I'm just really battling here. It's not my best day, and my wife could tell, but I bit my tongue a couple of times when I was tempted to say something I shouldn't. And so I'm 70 years old, so hopefully I have learned this by now, but we have to learn that there's nothing more important than managing our thoughts because those thoughts are what lead to actions.

Jason Daye 
Hey, friends, just a quick reminder that we provide a free toolkit that complements today's conversation. You can find this for this episode and every episode at PastorServe.org/network in the toolkit. You'll find a number of resources, including our Ministry Leaders Growth Guide. This growth guide includes insights pulled from today's conversation as well as reflection questions, so you and the ministry team at your local church can dig more deeply into this topic and see how it relates to your specific ministry context. Again, you can find it at PastorServe.org/network.

Jason Daye 
Yeah, that's good. One of the things, Max, that I really appreciate in the book is you give this like toolkit, very helpful toolkit, with three different things that we can actually work on, practically bring into our lives and embrace, and I'd love it if you just take a few minutes to walk through these three different tools and explain how they work and why they're important.

Max Lucado 
Yes, absolutely. Okay, so we have these three tools, and they're very practical, and they can be applied to whatever particular toxic thought pattern a person struggles with. Tool number one: practice picky thinking. And the subtitle would be, just because you have a thought, you don't have to think it. Okay, so you practice picky thinking. And when a thought comes your way, you literally, as 2 Corinthians 10 says, take that thought captive. Take that thought captive. You literally say, Now, do I need to be thinking this? Is this a thought from God or not? Take it captive. Make it submit to the authority of Christ. So that's the first tool. How practical it is that you teach your church this, or your youth group this. How practical. Because a lot of people think that just because a notion comes in their mind, it deserves a place at the table. Well, it doesn't. It doesn't. So practice picky thinking. Number two, and this is kind of fun. I call this UFO, not talking about aliens in Roswell, New Mexico. I'm talking about the untruth that leads to a false narrative that leads to an overreaction. As a pastor or a church leader, ministry leader, we find ourselves seeing people suffering from overreactions. By the time they come to see us or talk to us, a problem is full-blown. Their spending is out of control. Their marriage is in a downward death spiral. They can't get their anger under control, and they feel constantly guilty. They beat themselves up. So they come to see us, and by then, things are out of control. Now, as a young pastor, I used to try to deal just with the overreaction, but I've learned what really helps somebody. We don't say, don't feel this way. We ask the question, Why are you feeling this way? What caused this? And so the untruth is some kind of lie that got embedded in the soil of their brain, and it gave birth to a weed. That untruth gave birth to a false narrative. Narrative is how we see ourselves and what we say to ourselves, and then that false narrative led to an overreaction. We lashed out against our kids, or we quit a job and stormed out in frustration. It led to an overreaction. So, if we can help people see, now, before you let this overreaction go full bloom, back up. What's the untruth? And by the way, that untruth comes from the devil. He's the great liar, and he lives every moment hoping to deposit an untruth in your head. So untruth leads to a false narrative, leads to an overreaction. That's the second tool. We've got to identify those. You want me to move on to the third tool?

Jason Daye 
Yeah, let's move on to the third one.

Max Lucado 
Well, while we're talking about it. Because the third tool is uproot and replant. So now that you've identified that false narrative, that untruth, it's not enough to say, I'm going to stop thinking about that. That's helpful. That's a first step. You've got to uproot it for sure, but you've also got to replant. Here's where the scripture comes in. Instead of saying, My world is out of control, take that thought, pull it up by the roots, get out a good old-fashioned garden spade, dig deep, pull it out, and say, I'm not going to think that. Instead, I'm going to think, Hmm, all things work together for good, for those who love God and are called according to His purposes. Romans 8:28, and your mind just goes there. You deposit that truth. You deposit that truth. All things work together for good. You may have to say that verse to yourself 100 times in a given day if things are really out of control. In time, however, that truth will take root, and that root will create a new habit of thinking, a new way of thinking. So you won't be conformed to the pattern of the world, but you'll be transformed by the renewal of your mind in the power of the Holy Spirit. What you're doing is you're creating a new rut, a new way of thinking, and so that what used to be a common response of anxiety will increasingly become a common response of but God and faith. God's in control, and your faith will develop, and your mind will physically change, and your thoughts will substantially change.

Jason Daye 
At PastorServe, we love walking alongside pastors and ministry leaders just like you. If you want to learn more about how you can qualify for a complimentary coaching session with one of our trusted ministry coaches, please visit PastorServe.org/freesession. You don't want to miss out on this opportunity. That's PastorServe.org/freesession.

Jason Daye 
Yeah. Absolutely love that, Max, because this toolkit is so practical. We got this idea of filtering our thoughts. I love the way you say, just because the thought comes doesn't mean you have to think it, dwell on it, hold it, you know, you can let go of it. So, it's the idea of filtering our thoughts and then identifying those things. And a lot of times, as you said, we're further down the path. We're overreacting to something, but backing up. And so what are we bleeding that false narrative, and what is really that untruth that's feeding that false narrative that's leading us here? So we're filtering, we're identifying, then we're uprooting. But I love the point that oftentimes people stop there, right? Maybe they get there, maybe they're like, Okay, I see these things that are damaging, I'm going to remove them. But you make the point of replanting, as you said, make the point of replacing that negative thing, that untruth, with something that is true from God's kingdom, something that's true from Scripture. How can we help encourage people that we're interacting with, whether it's our own family members, our parishioners, or those people God's entrusted to us? How can we help encourage them to uproot and replant? What are practical ways that we can help people walk through that in kind of their own discipleship?

Max Lucado 
Yeah, and that's such a great question, Jason, because it is very common among mental health experts in mental health circles to talk about emptying our brains. Kind of the buzzword is meditation. We meditate, and traditionally speaking, meditation is clearing your brain, clearing your thoughts. Absolutely wonderful. Yet, Scripture calls us to not just clear our brains, but to manage the thoughts in our brains by putting truth in our brains. You remember Jesus when he was being tempted by the devil? The devil came with three specific lies. And Jesus could have said, I'm just not going to think on that. I'm not going to think on that. But he didn't. Instead, you'll remember that he said, But it is written. It is written. It is written. Such a beautiful moment here, the Word of God is quoting the Word of God, right? And he himself is meditating on Scripture. By nature, we're meditators. We ruminate. We're always thinking. We are. We're always thinking. I find it very difficult if somebody says to me, Max, just don't think about that. Don't think about that. Well, dadgummit, I'm going to think about it. And when you tell me not to think about it, that's going to make me think about it more. What I need is something better to think about, and that's why Scripture does this. Here's a great example. Guilt. When I became a Christian at the age of 20, I was a drunk. And, Jason, I was anything but the kind of guy you'd want your daughter to go out on a date with. I was just a bum, and I hurt people. I was disrespectful of women. I disrespected my parents. I was just a mess. I genuinely did not think God could forgive a guy like me, and that's what kept me from Christ. Not the belief that Jesus did not empty the tomb, but the belief that God, He may forgive everybody, but I'm the exception to the rule. And by God's grace, a pastor convinced me of God's grace, and I came and accepted God's grace. Still, however, I battled guilt. I battled guilt. I thought, man, what I did in that night, or what I did with those guys. I couldn't get it out of my mind. What helped me was not to stop thinking about that, but to begin thinking about verses like Romans 8:1. So there is now, therefore, no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. I remember a pastor teaching on that scripture, and it meant so much to me. Really? There's no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus? Well, that's what I needed. By the way, pastors, that's why we preach. That's why we declare this from pulpits. We never know. We never know what 20-year-old version of Lucado is sitting out there. And I've preached that passage or taught that truth hundreds of times, but there are people who've not heard it once. So, just to decide, that's why we teach, why we preach, and why we proclaim the forgiveness of God. So, basically, you're equipping your church with a scripture, just a single scripture. They don't have to memorize the whole book of Romans, or the eighth chapter of Romans, but give them that one verse. Maybe have the whole church recite it out loud. Maybe project it on the big screen. Maybe have it on a handout card and say, Memorize this verse this week. Do something and help them go from trying to vacate their brain to populating their brain with truth, with scripture, and I think their lives will change as a result.

Jason Daye 
Yeah, I absolutely love that. Absolutely love it. Max, it is always a joy to have you with us. I want to give you a bit of a last word as we're closing down this conversation. Again, you have the eyes and ears of brothers and sisters who are serving in the front lines of ministry. What words, Max, of encouragement would you like to leave with them today?

Max Lucado 
Yeah, and this may sound like it's coming out of the blue, but I read an article, it was a month or so ago, about a prominent thought leader saying, I love Jesus, but I hate the church. Jesus, yes. Church, no. And this person is a relatively young person, and I know they're probably thinking they're novel in their thoughts. But that's been around forever. It's been around forever. And maybe there's another little trend going on. We don't like the church. Hey, I get it. I get it. I don't like the church either. But let me tell you something, dear friend, the church is the bride of Christ, and you've been called to love the Bride of Christ. And so don't align yourselves with those who want to say, I want all the benefits of being a Christian, but none of the challenges of loving Christians. That's just not what we signed up for. So God bless you as you love the church, as you love the church. By the way, since the church is the bride of Christ, if you want to really show Christ that you love him, you care for his bride, you be patient, you be instructional, you be pastoral, and you be practical, because the way you love them is the way you love him.

Jason Daye 
Thank you so much, brother. Appreciate you. For those who are watching or listening along, if you want to learn more about Max's latest book, Tame Your Thoughts. You can go to PastorServe.org/network, and you can download the toolkit for this episode, which includes all kinds of resources, including a Ministry Leaders Growth Guide that you can use for yourself and ministry leaders at your local church that digs more deeply into the conversation that Max and I just had about taming your thoughts. Brother, I appreciate you. Love you. So grateful for your ministry and your friendship. Thank you so much for taking time to hang out with us today.

Max Lucado 
You're really kind, Jason, and all the best to you and your wonderful audience.

Jason Daye 
Thank you, brother. God bless you.

Jason Daye 
Here at PastorServe, we hope you're truly finding value through these episodes of FrontStage BackStage. If so, please consider leaving a review for us on your favorite podcast platform. These reviews help other ministry leaders and pastors just like you find the show, so they can benefit as well. Also, consider sharing this episode with a colleague or other ministry friend. And don't forget our free toolkit, which is available at PastorServe.org/network. This is Jason Daye, encouraging you to love well, live well, and lead well.