Jason Daye

Steve, you as a pastor and ministry leader, wrestled with somewhat of a disconnect. You share that cognitively your beliefs about God and what you were studying, preaching, and teaching. That there was a disconnect between that, perhaps, and what you were experiencing, right? You share in the book that actually, as you’re reflecting on this, you began to think well, perhaps maybe the fact that I’m a pastor is somehow the problem, which I think that all of us in ministry can resonate with to some degree. You’re thinking maybe the work I’m doing for God is somehow limiting my capacity to really experience God. Yeah, so Steve, I’d love for you to just share a little bit about that wrestling experience and those things that you were processing.

Steve Cuss
Yeah, it’s a great question and there’s a lot of complexity to it. But I think where we could start is, I think there’s two dynamics going on for faith leaders. One is, that 4:25—5:03 I think a paycheck just infects the family relationship. Sometimes you’ll see like a moving truck, and it says something like Smith and Sons and you know, well, that’s a family business. Mr. Smith started it and his boys are now helping and you know that that changes Thanksgiving dinner. It just does that because Dad is dad and boss. I think that is what happens with us as pastors. God is father and boss. Look, God is a great boss. The problem is not on God’s side. But for me, I think the first dynamic is the way we conflate being God’s child and God’s employee. Then I do think the second dynamic is really related to that 5:09—5:40 we are prone to neglect ourselves in the name of Jesus. So one of the things I teach people is the way we syncretize our anxiety and the Gospel as if it’s all the gospel. So I focus on others. I’m very “others” focused. That sounds almost like Jesus. That almost sounds like the Great Commission. Look at Steve, he’s so focused, look at how he gives and gives. But what’s really true is that I neglect myself. I don’t know what’s going on with me. 5:41—6:15 So I do think we have this double dynamic as pastors that we’re either very others-focused, mission-focused, or vision-focused, that we don’t ever stop and say, Wait a minute, what’s going on in me? How am I doing? Am I actually connecting to the God I’m proclaiming? Then we get into a habit over the years. We just get used to it. We proclaim a gospel that we don’t actually experience. 6:04 So that was what happened to me. I just woke up kind of and it snuck up on me, Jason. Then in 2015, I was like, wait a minute, this is becoming untenable. In my particular case, I know this isn’t everyone’s story, but I’m a member of the church I used to be a pastor of. I just want to clarify that I’m no longer the lead pastor at this church. But I’m now a congregant there. But when I was the pastor there, I pastored an extremely kind church. None of this was a surprise to them. I was not keeping this journey from them. I actually believe the power of pastoring is letting people enter into my own doubt and struggle, and they can have permission to find theirs. Yeah, those are two dynamics, kind of the employee-child dynamic. Then just the tendency of faith leaders to neglect ourselves. We think it’s for the sake of others, but I think there’s a lot more going on.

Jason Daye
Yeah, Steve. So as you were processing through that, what did you begin to recognize? What did you begin to seek out? What was God revealing to you as you felt yourself in that kind of tension?

Steve Cuss
Yeah, I don’t know if you’ve ever been in this situation, I’m sorry to say I’ve been in a situation a number of times in my life where blind spot knowledge is revealed to me. Maybe there’s a way I’m behaving and I’m not aware of it. The way it works, Jason, is somebody will point it out. Then the moment they say it, the moment before they said it, I’d never seen it. The moment they say it, all I can see is Oh, that’s been my whole life. This happened when my wife and I were in premarital counseling. We were engaged and I thought I was God’s gift to future husbands. I’m just a young, selfish, short dude. His ability just to find things in me that I didn’t even know I was revealing. He’s a therapist. I felt so exposed. That’s kind of the experience I had, I think, as a pastor. I always had this low-grade angst about it. But it really did come to a head for me in that 2015 to 2017 era, where it just became so clear to me, Jason. 8:13—9:12 I’m like, wow, my head believes things my body does not believe. So I say I believe in God’s love, but I don’t experience it in my chest. I say I believe in freedom in Christ, but I am not free at all. Now, maybe spiritually and ontologically, I’m free. Maybe to preach. But daily? Nope, not free. The Scriptures teach that we can access supernatural peace, regardless of circumstances. Those promises were written in the context of a harsh Roman Empire. Then I look at well, I’m not at peace, I’m worried about my critics. I’m feeling sermon performance anxiety. So I think for me, it was this sudden blind spot knowledge of Oh, my goodness, these are the foundational beliefs of my faith, and I’m not living them. Then, of course, what’s comforting for me is I just need someone else to join me in my misery. So then I started to discover that, oh, this is everybody. This isn’t unique to pastors. So again, I tried to steward this as a gift to my church and say, This is normal, what are we going to do about it? Then in the book, it gets a bit sophisticated, but what I am a student of is attempted solutions. Human beings have problems, but it’s our attempted solutions that get us into trouble.