Jason Daye 
Welcome to FrontStage BackStage. This week we have a handpicked highlight that we believe you will find valuable. If you do, we invite you to listen to the full conversation. You can find the link to the complete episode in the description. As always, please like, comment, subscribe, and share, so we can continue to bring you meaningful ministry content, helping you and pastors and ministry leaders just like you flourish in both life and leadership. Are you ready? Let's go. We tend to have desert experiences sometimes in our walk with, with, with God, right? And so, but that is part of our growth, part of our development, right? But, as you said, sometimes, whenever someone is wrestling with mental illness, depression, these types of things, that chasm can be pronounced or can seem, and yet there's this assurance that we want to provide for people that that doesn't mean you are alone. That's the beauty of God is its presence in our life, you know, it's one of the great gifts. So, talk to us a little bit about those, those desert times, and how that relates both to maybe those who aren't, you know, experiencing depression, but then also encouragement for those who are.

Diana Gruver 
Yeah, so one of the anchoring points I have found for myself is in Psalm 139, right? He talks about how if I go up to the highest of height floors, you were there, and if I make my bed in the depths, you were there, and if I say, "Surely the darkness will hide me, the night will shine like the day, for dark is this light to you. And when you're stuck in something like depression, in the dark, isolated, it can be easy to think, can God find me here? Can I go so deep into this that He cannot find me? And you're right, that assurance of His presence, that even the deepest of our darkness that we experience is not dark to Him. He is there, He has promised to be there with us as His children, and so no matter how dry we feel, how depressed we feel, um, you know, we can, we can mourn that sense of, of God's absence, we can mourn where we are, but that does not dictate any sort of reality of whether God is or isn't present with us, because He has promised to be present with us, so finding anchoring points like that, I think can be really, really helpful, but I think the question becomes, what does it look like to follow Jesus there, right? If it's not actually a reflection on our spiritual life, but it's still an opportunity to follow Jesus like every other aspect of our life, is the question just becomes, okay, Lord, what does it look like to follow you faithfully here? What do those little baby steps look like for me to follow you, whether it is just one of those dry spells, a wilderness season, or whether it is something like depression? In either situation, it's okay. What's this next little baby step of faithfulness? If you're depressed and you're severely depressed, it might be getting out of bed and having a shower, that might be the starting point for you, right now. It might be making a phone call to a friend or to your doctor to take some steps to try to begin that journey to becoming well. But I think that's where we need to start. What's the baby step? What's the next tiny little step that's right here at my fingertips, right here at my feet, to pursue, to pursue the Lord, to follow Him faithfully. Mother Teresa, I talk about her in my book, and she was one that was well acquainted with that dry, dark spiritual season, and she said, you know, I'm thankful that I've been told to follow Christ, because when, when the storm gets, gets really out of the ordinary, when the dark gets really dark, all I have to do is stop and be still like a little child and wait for it to pass. All I'm doing is following Jesus, and so I think there are ways that, again, baby steps, but there are ways to just to sit in that quietness, and say, "Okay, Lord, what is faithfulness here? And take that next step.

Jason Daye 
Yeah, that's, that's, that's excellent. I love that, Diana. And you mentioned Mother Teresa. Talk to us a little bit. What are some of the other key figures from church history that you came across in your research as you were exploring this, that this idea that who also struggled with, with doubt with depression?

Diana Gruver 
So Martin Luther is the earliest one. He is, of course, the German Protestant reformer. Hannah Allen was a one that I stumbled upon pretty much by happenstance, really. She's a bit more obscure, but she is an everyday Christian. She was a wife and a mother and struggled deeply. Charles Spurgeon is the would that be 19th century English preacher. David Brainerd was a missionary to Native Americans in the United States, and good friends with Jonathan Edwards and Martin Luther King Jr. Who I'm sure is familiar to everyone as well, civil rights leader, and yeah, that's the, that's the crew there, seven of them, yeah. William Cooper, I almost forgot him, the game writer, game writer, yeah, yes, yeah, and good friends with John Newton, and you know, I'm their stories are a gift to me, because I mean, some of them are more well known than others, but most of them, their stories are still being told. We're still being able to benefit from their wisdom, benefit from their work, benefit from their ministry, and so to see them and say they struggled like this, and not only, you know, does that unravel the stigma of maybe I'm doing something wrong, maybe I'm a bad Christian? It also promises, I think, in the midst of that struggle, God is still here, God is still working. He will use me, He can use me, He is using me. All I need to do is just keep trusting that He can work, even in the midst of my weakness.

Jason Daye 
Yeah, that's so important, I think, in such an encouragement to us to know it's kind of the idea of, you know, we're not alone in this, not only are not only is Christ present in the midst of it, but there's a company of others, you know, faithful people who love Jesus and devoted their lives to him into the kingdom, who are on similar journeys in some ways, Diana. What was, as you're researching these, these different ministers, church leaders, these, you know, devoted followers of Jesus? What did you uncover from their stories that was most surprising to you?

Diana Gruver 
I think the most surprising was how matter-of-fact most of them were about their struggles, you know, my experience has been one where there's a lot of stigma that comes with mental illness. There's a lot of guilt that comes with it, and so to shake that off and be able to approach it in a matter-of-fact way that says this is a struggle that I have, this is not a poor reflection on me, this is not something I need to feel guilty about. I need to take the steps I need to be well. That was a process for me to come to accept, and so for someone you know, people hundreds of years ago to just accept that as a well-accepted fact was really surprising. Again, I think it's that misconception of of the present day versus times that they didn't have some of the same stigma that comes with mental illness today, and so they were able to have the freedom to say, yeah, we find hope in our walk with the Lord and hope of the gospel, but I'm also going to go to a doctor, and I'm also going to do whatever they recommend, as far as treatments, and surround myself with some of the lifestyle things that will be helpful, and I didn't expect that to be quite as present as it was.

Jason Daye 
Yeah, I love that, Diane. That's so refreshing, actually, because we do live, I think, even more pronounced, probably right now in our culture, although there's been some, I think, very positive shifts, for sure, but we do live in a culture right now that, you know, not to make social media, you know, the boogeyman of our time, but social media tends to be our highlight reels, right? It tends to be all the great things, the wonderful things going on in our lives, and so we tend to try to put forth, you know, an image that we've got things together, and, and it's very refreshing to hear that so many faithful Christ followers in the past were willing to say, you know, what I have struggles, I don't have my life, is it all completely figured out? That's why I need Jesus, right? So, talk to us a little bit about even, even pastors watching right now, mystery leaders are watching right now, or listening in. You know what? What can we learn, I guess, in that regard from those who have come before us?

Diana Gruver 
I think surrounding ourselves with the people that can help us in that journey. None of these people would have worn their struggle with depression as a badge of honor, but they knew, like you said, this is a part of my reality. This is a part of why I'm thankful for the presence of Christ and the strength that He provides, but they knew that they couldn't do it alone, and so none of the stories in this book could be told without the stories of the companions who walked with them, right, their ministry partners, their spouses, their friends, you know, that this network of people who surrounded them and helped them, and supported them in the midst of that, and I think that when, for so many people who are in a ministry setting, or in a leadership setting, it feels like you have to walk it alone, you need to be this strong, invincible presence, and everything is resting on your shoulders, and that is not true, I don't think that's the way that Jesus intended us to operate, right. We're intended to be a body, we're intended to be a community, we need each other. And so, looking at these stories, seeing how they operated, you need people around you, right? If you're struggling, surround yourself with a network of people who can support you, that might be your spouse, it might be an elder team or a board, or whatever your organization is like. Who are those people that you can trust, who can support you in the midst of that, in addition to the medical profession professionals that you need, depending on your circumstance. But, but we're not, we're not silos, right? We're not superheroes, and none of these stories could be told without countless others who were behind the scenes faithfully there and helping to support these, these seven saints in the midst of their own struggles.

Jason Daye
FrontStage BackStage is a ministry of PastorServe. Here at PastorServe, we love walking alongside of pastors and ministry leaders. If you'd like to learn details on how you might qualify for a complimentary coaching session with one of our trusted ministry coaches, please visit PastorServe.org/freesession. Now, FrontStage BackStage is more than just another podcast. In fact, we create an entire toolkit that complements every single conversation. You can find this toolkit at PastorServe.org/network for this episode, and for every episode in the toolkit, you'll find a number of resources, including our ministry leaders' growth guide. In the growth guide, you'll find both questions and insights that are pulled from the conversation that you and the leaders at your local church or ministry can process together to consider how this content relates to your particular ministry context. Again, you can find the toolkit at PastorServe.org/network. Now we hope that you are finding this content valuable, and if so, we'd love for you to share, comment, like, follow, subscribe. That engagement is incredibly important, and also, please take a moment to give us a review on your favorite podcast platform. Your engagement and your reviews help other pastors and ministry leaders help find this valuable content. I'm Jason Daye, and encouraging you to love well, live well, and lead well. Thank you, and God Bless.