You Don't Have To Be an Entrepreneur To Be in Pelvic Health with Kelsey Mathias

• Save the date: 3rd Annual OTs in Pelvic Health Summit is happening August 17-18, 2024!
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• Get Lindsey's 9 page OTs Map to the World of Pelvic Health.
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• Check Out More OT Pelvic Health Content here.
• Find Lindsey on IG! @functionalpelvis

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Pelvic OTPs United - Lindsey's off-line interactive community for $39 a month!
Inside Pelvic OTPs United you'll find:​

• Weekly group mentoring calls with Lindsey. She's doing this exclusively inside this community. These aren't your boring old Zoom calls where she is a talking head. We interact, we coach, we learn from each other.
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• Highly curated forums. The worst is when you post a question on FB just to have it drowned out with 10 other questions that follow it. So, she's got dedicated forums on different populations, different diagnosis, different topics (including business). Hop it, post your specific question, and get the expert advice you need.

More info here. Lindsey would love support you in this quiet corner off social media!

Transcript

Lindsey Vestal My guest today is the one and only Kelsey Mathias, who is an occupational therapist, passionate about helping veterans and active duty service members feel empowered to overcome the challenges they encounter in life. She is passionate about organizational leadership, process and systems improvement and finds joy helping large organizations help others. You also may know Kelsey because she is My Incredible OTs and Pelvic health Summit co-founder in 2022. Together we started the OTs and Pelvic health Summit, virtually 2023 just a few weeks ago, we kicked off our first in-person summit together and we have already announced our dates for our 2024 summit, which is August 17th and 18th, and it's in Phoenix, Arizona. In this shownotes, you'll find the communication list to learn more as all of the incredible, exciting news drops regarding this summit. Without further ado. I cannot wait to share our conversation with you. Kelsey has such an incredibly articulate way of sharing things that I find like I have been thinking about for years. And she brings it out in in such a cohesively beautiful way that takes my thoughts to the next level. Today we're going to be talking all about jobs, entrepreneurship and working for others and how as occupational therapy practitioners in Pelvic health, how do we find our sweet spot? 

Intro New and seasoned OTs are finding their calling in Pelvic health after all, what's more ADL than sex, peeing and poop? But here's the question. What does it take to become a successful, fulfilled and thriving O.T. in Pelvic health? How do you go from beginner to seasons and everything in between? Those are the questions and this podcast will give you the answers. We are inspired OTs. We are out of the box OTs. We are pelvic health OTs. I'm your host Lindsey Vestal and welcome to the OTs and Pelvic health Podcast. 

Lindsey Vestal Kelsey, I am so excited to get you on the OTs for Pelvic health podcast. Thank you so much for being here. 

Kelsey Mathias I am so excited. It's such an honor. It's always fun to chat with you, but I mean, I'm overjoyed for this opportunity. 

Lindsey Vestal Hi, This is going to be is going to be a great conversation. It's going to be one of those conversations that you know, just like peeing, pooping and intimacy, we don't talk about enough. And so I'm excited to be bringing taboo topics personally, professionally and everything in between. And I'm especially excited to be talking about it with. 

Kelsey Mathias You know, just say I'm just so excited. And I do feel like we're going to touch on some like, taboo things today, which, you know, I love. 

Lindsey Vestal When I do resent. So before we get into it, though, I mean, at the time of this recording, just a couple of weeks ago, we concluded the second annual OTs and Pelvic Health Summit, of which you are my incredible co-founder. You've been there with me from the beginning. We've just released our dates for our third annual summit, which will be happening in Phenix again. It is August 17th and 18th, 2024. And I going to ask you, Kelsey, it's like, you know almost little bit less than a year away, What's on your mind? Like, what are you most excited about when you think about the next summit together? 

Kelsey Mathias I cannot get the idea of being and community out of my head. Just that energy of being in the room and with one another and that sense of combined just energy of purpose and meaning and drive that we have like that is definitely what I am looking forward to the most. I'm curious, what about you? What's getting you jazzed about next year? 

Lindsey Vestal The fact I mean, I, I want to be really transparent. Like when you plan an event like this, you don't always know if people are going to come. You know, that whole, you know, if you build it, they will come analogy, which is, you know, something I think a lot about in terms of like starting their own private practices, which is what we're going to get into today. You know, And if you build it, it doesn't necessarily mean that a client is going to come to you or that 100 practitioners are going to join you in the room. And so for me, I, I feel I feel so incredibly joyous that we were met, you know, there that people actually like did buy a ticket and did join us. And not only that, but like felt elated when we did experience that community. So for me, it's kind of I'm removing some of the self doubt, sadly, when I'm thinking about 2024 because I'm going, okay, wait. Like this is something that people not only enjoy but actually like are planning, are planning around their planning, their year, their budgeting. They're saying, I'm going to choose this event. And so for me, like, that's such an honor. And it's like, okay, how how could we do this even better? How can we up the ante and put aside some of that self doubt? Sally knowing this is an event that people thrive with and man, let's step up and make it even better. 

Kelsey Mathias yeah. I'm I'm already excited as this next year unfolds, as we get to reveal to everyone some of the amazing things we are working on with such intention for next year. And you're right, it's just it's onward and upward from here. I'm so excited. Yeah, yeah, yeah. 

Lindsey Vestal All right. So thank you for that and I want to shift topics a little bit here for what we wanted to talk about today on the podcast. And I'm also excited for for this conversation because I have had the privilege of knowing you for, gosh, at least five years now. Kelsey And I'm excited to to share you with the community a little bit more in terms of just your in an incredibly thoughtful person. You're someone that I personally groundsmen you and I love having these conversations with you. And so today I've invited you to come on the podcast to kind of like share this conversation because I know and we've talked about it in the past, the way that you reframe it and your your conscientiousness behind the decisions that you've made have been really inspiring to me. And I'm excited. I'm excited to share that today with our community. So without further ado, you know, with conversations we've had in the past, you've shared with me that you really knew you wanted to be an pelvic health even before you graduated high school. And that is something we definitely share in common. And at that time, Kelsey, you really felt like entrepreneurship was that next required thing like that in order for you to be an Pelvic health that was kind of part of the deal, you know, and and you rose to the challenge. You did it, and in fact, you went on to own your own business for five years. And. So while knowing deeply in your bones that Pelvic health was was truly that right calling for you, you did discover that entrepreneurship wasn't. And I'd love to know what what did you experience along that path that led you to this conclusion? 

Kelsey Mathias So so many things had happened in life. And I think like starting back from the beginning, I I've always kind of had a little bit of a like go get go get them kind of attitude, which also had me mentally thinking that I had to be an entrepreneur. Like people told me throughout my life, like, this is what you need to do. And and then when I was doing public health at the time, when I got my start of the student ten years ago and like back in 2013. Lindsay, you were an entrepreneur. Christa Kovel Pearson, who had the honor of doing one of my clinical rotations with she was as well, and Tiffany Lee. And I'm like, okay, if I'm going to do public health, then I have to be an entrepreneur. And for like five years, often more than five years, because it was a total of five years that I was doing private practice. But in between there I would feel this exhaustion, this lack of peace, and I would go work like an hour in an outpatient clinic and then have honestly some like poor experiences and like, okay, I'm like, I do have to be an entrepreneur. And then as this was going on, like really in 2021 and I think during the pandemic, a lot of us had moments of just pause and self-reflection. And I sat there running my own practice. It was successful at the time. I think I was the only person doing in-home visits in Colorado Springs and doing really, really well, like good relationships, like things that I dreamed about being able to do as an entrepreneur. But I felt this just like lack of inner peace that I could not explain and just. This honestly, like some anxiety about and I'm sure I'm sure you probably experience of anxiety like that just comes with entrepreneurship in some instances. But it wasn't like a satisfaction, like I did not find satisfaction and what I was doing at that time. And if I'm going to be a leader in public health, I'm supposed to be an entrepreneur. What am I supposed to be doing? But in self-reflection, I really pause and thought to myself, like, okay. Embedded in your practice framework, spirituality, those things that give us meaning, purpose, hope, peace, motivation. And I try to pause and reflect on like, okay, I am not feeling hope and peace right now. What gives me meaning and purpose. And I was drawn back to this conversation in grad school with a lovely professor of mine that I absolutely adore, and we were a part of a different organization outside of school, and I was having this conversation with her and she was talking about this organization and her frustration with it. And she's like, you know, I'm I have to be outside of this organization in order to create change. And when I reflected on it, I like having that conversation with her. I'm like, you know, I feel like me as a human, a calling in life is to be the change from the inside. And I when I reflected back on that, that really gave me peace and thinking that, you know, entrepreneurship is creating change in our world from outside of systems initially. And then a lot of times big organizations, people are bound to seeing certain health care organizations. I'll give my disclaimer. I do work for the federal government. Nothing I say today is a reflection of the federal government. But people who work for the Army, they have no other option but seeing army providers that are legally bound to that. And so when I thought about people like that, I'm like, my gosh, who is changing systems from the inside? And I felt this this calling and this drive to go work for other people. And since I've done that, like just the piece, Lindsey, I felt has been incredible and huge. Like, this is my calling. 

Lindsey Vestal That's that's incredible. I haven't heard the story to that level of detail, Kelsey And I'm I'm so appreciative of you sharing that with us because I think not only back, you know, over a decade ago when you looked around and you saw, you know, people that were, you know, doing it and they were doing it as that model of entrepreneurship, it makes so much sense. You're like, okay, this is the path that's been laid out for me. And I would venture a guess that even now in the year 2023, people still see that and think that that's that's the model. And what I really want to emphasize as I hear your story, is that that's a choice and that, wow, that is a model that is can be successful and is successful when we are reflective individuals and take a moment back and, you know, that hustle and grind that entrepreneurship can be, it can be hard to make those moments where you do step aside and reflect. And so some of the things you were saying was exhaustion, you know, lack of inner peace. And sometimes that's I happen to know you have a young family and, you know, with all between between having a young family, between the hustle and the grind, what I'm really hearing is to take that moment of pause and reflection and ask like, is this what we thought it would be? Is that satisfaction, that deep, true satisfaction there? So thank you for for modeling that and kind of sharing your journey with us so that, you know, those of us listening to this podcast might be experiencing something, something similar, whether it's professionally, personally, you know, it's really that that anti culture of hustle and grind and you know really producing that you're taking a step back from and that kind of led you to to where you are today. 

Kelsey Mathias I mean, 100%. And you know, like there there's a certain amount of shame. Yeah. I feel like that can be cast for running a business and then no longer running your own business, almost like it's a step back. And it definitely dealt with that a fair amount at the time. But my God, the amount of change I've been able to enact in the spaces I've been sitting in in the past couple of years at my capacity and running my own practice, I never would have been able to do on my own. I couldn't have done it. And so it was like I had to act like a leader in the field, like go run your own business and to be able to really recognize that we can be change makers and agents of change in a practice working for somebody else, I feel like is a message that people just need to know. Like, you can do it. 

Lindsey Vestal Yeah, I. You're 100% right. And so I'd love to share a little bit now about that in terms of, you know, what is the right you mentioned you're working in the federal system, but whatever you can share more of, we'd love to know. Like now here it is. You know, you're still in Colorado, you're back in Colorado Springs. And yeah, that you're right when when people step away from from that, you know, epitome of arrival. I think many people think entrepreneurship can be like you're right there can be some of that shame. And so again like I love that you're bringing up this taboo aspect of it because it doesn't it doesn't have to be that way. And so I'd love to know now, like, what is the right setting for you at this point in your life? Kelsey And how do. You know that it's right for you. 

Kelsey Mathias That's. That's so, so good. I mean, for me, I. I know, like, my calling, my purpose and I meaning leads me to working for the federal government because I get to work with people who a lot of times like, like I have a deep passion for working people who don't have other options, who are at the end of their rope. And whether that's working for Department of Defense, where they are legally bound to being seen within their their medical systems with a slight wiggle room and then like working for places like the VA Veteran Affairs where I work now, where a lot of times like they're stuck on at very limited incomes and and that for me was a big draw knowing like this is where I need to be right now. And in private practice, I did see Medicaid like I was contracted with Medicaid and Medicare. The rest were in Tricare and VA. So like those government insurances, the rest I did cash pay, but I knew right now, like that was that was a big draw, being able to help those who need help, which I mean what I think all of us feel that way. But then on a deeper and honestly, more practical level, like I needed some stability, I needed a stable paycheck. And building your own practice. And a lot of us who were in our own practice during Covid, I know like took a hit because people were like, there's there's a pandemic going on. And so that stable paycheck really, really nice. Also, federal government, you're able to go online and you can see what you are going to get paid. And so like that's that's also nice, the ability to shut off. I did not shut off well when I was running a private practice, like I honestly had some poor boundaries and even though I still like am constantly chasing a thousand different thoughts because that's kind of my brain, my paycheck doesn't rely on my ability to continue pushing those things out outside of my 40 hour work week. And so I'm very appreciative for those built in boundaries that I needed. I'd also say I know like right now, for me being a part of an organization and there's other ones outside the federal government that can offer this, but like being able to be a part of an organization where there's a chance to process improve. I love process improvement. I love data, I love some of those nerdy things to help shift organizations that I was not going to get being an entrepreneur. And so like that organizational leadership, like all these little things in my mind that I like to get ticked or getting ticked and being fit so well by working where I'm at like right now. And I think for people listening like find out what gives you meaning, purpose and drive and those things that you like and then go out and see if those jobs exist, which is kind of what I did. Like I was a part of an alternative careers group on Facebook for health care professionals, and I was just like searching like, okay, how can I how can I take these boxes? That gives me joy. And that's where I stumbled upon like my track that I'm in right now. 

Lindsey Vestal This is so incredibly refreshing. Can I just say that like this? These are the things that I don't know if we could talk about more. Recognize that there is actually more choice out there for us. You know, I feel like, you know, I mean, we're so blessed to to to know and to have this journey with you. But like, it's one of those things where, you know, again, how I started off our conversation. You really thought this was the only path you knew you needed to be in? Pelvic health That was 100% your calling. And so that was seemed to be linked to entrepreneurship when in actuality, if perhaps you had heard this conversation, you know, maybe maybe your journey would have taken a different approach. But I also am a big believer that things happen the way that they're supposed to. But I just want to pause and just again, like show my appreciation for this this refreshing conversation that I don't think we have enough in the things that you really highlighted that I heard that were important to you, which of course, makes so much sense, right? You've got stability and income. You were able to really, you know, kind of step into your built in boundaries, which I know is helping you grow as a person to be able to instill your own. Outside of that, you're still that change maker. You're involved in process improvement and you're still doing what I know is been a huge tenant of your life, which is bringing hope to people. And so I'm just I'm so I love those. Thank you so much for for sharing all this. It's it's incredible. You kind of answered my question and so I'll edit this part out If if we we there's nothing else to add because you just segue so beautifully. But I guess where I was going next, if anyone listening to our conversation right now and you know are thinking about their next steps maybe it's evaluating a potential next job or an employment opportunity or they're at the crossroads of anything important for them. Kelsie What would you encourage them to think about and consider before they make that decision? 

Kelsey Mathias This is such a good question. I think when I got started in practice, I had honestly heard some misinformation from people. I had been given this vibe from. I don't like from family my own beliefs growing up, like all of these things that informs who we are. Where I had it in my head like corporate is bad, like corporations are out to get you. You can be replaced easily. And so, like, I was drawn like, okay, I need to work for small practices because small practices like they're going to have more of a family feel things like that. So like it turned out for me that it was actually the opposite. And so as people are looking for opportunities, looking for like if they want to work for somebody else, I would encourage you, don't rule out corporations and don't rule out small practices. People are people and wherever you go there people are. And we're we we all are kind of trudging through life and growing as humans, hopefully. And so within that, like some of my worst experiences were in small practices, they were like they there was some protectiveness of not wanting to share leadership. And I know of small practices where that is not the case. And so I guess to me it's like don't make don't paint broad brush strokes of certain practice settings because it is unique. And even within corporate systems, I have found that like one corporate climate could be toxic and another corporate clinic could be beyond fantastic. And it kind of depends on who the people are. And so I'd get real clear on what matters to you. And in my interviews, I found a really good question that I ask and gives me a good feel is what is the culture of your team, not the company culture. Explain to me your team culture at your clinic and how they respond. Really kind of gives me an idea of if I think we're going to be a good fit or not. When I hear things like they value teamwork and they have get togethers and they, you know, they push people onward to have continuing education, they ask now specifically about like, how do you handle sick leave in your clinic? If I hear from somebody that if I get sick or my kids get sick, I will get written up, which has happened to me when I worked at a hospital before then. I know like, from the front, this isn't going to work. And so I would identify questions that matter to you and help reveal like meaning and purpose and what aligns with what your needs are like if you have young kids and might need a last minute time out in an outpatient clinic, even though it's fully booked, like having Grace for that and not feeling pressured or feeling like you're letting the team down. Like those are things that matter and those are things that you could find in both small practices or corporate settings just being really clear as you go forward. 

Lindsey Vestal Thank you for sharing some of those like tangible questions. And also just for reminding us that, you know, broad strokes and very often don't serve anyone. You know, it really is that individual experience in that setting and that unique culture that and even what you're bringing at that period of your life, that that is everything. And so when when I'm reflecting on what you're saying, what I'm really hearing is to, like, assess each individual opportunity for for what it is and to also be reflective on how you fit into it, because it may be just the thing you need at that period of your life, or it could end up being something that you know is toxic and doesn't encourage personal growth for how you define it. And so, yeah, I think this is incredibly important to to remember, to, you know, be re reflective, take it as that into a case by case value. And then that really tangible question you asked. And I'm curious, Kelsey, like you definitely told us what you're listening for and what, you know, is kind of like what gets your antennas piqued. I'm curious, like if they were to answer that question in a way that didn't sit well with you, when you say like, what is your team culture? Is could you provide us with an example of an answer that potentially wouldn't necessarily align with your values and what you were looking for? 

Kelsey Mathias I mean, I was in one interview and they're like hard work and it was the way they chose the way they said it. They're like hard work, dedication. We're going to put in the hours outside if we need to. And then again, I'm like, okay, like probing. Question that's incredible. I also love putting it like putting in hard work, going above and beyond. Will those be paid hours? And they're like, what we're really looking like? And they didn't answer the question of like, will I be paid for my time? And like, that's a no. Okay. And then also with culture, if they give like a, a pat answer, like, like we value teamwork, blah, blah, like whatever, like, you know, like a pat answer. I give a follow up question of it's usually the follow up questions where I find out like, not a good job. And the follow up question will be like, Can you give me examples of how this exists in your setting or in your team? And what I have found when I just kind of feel in my heart like this is not a good fit. As they struggle to give examples. If they're struggling to give examples of what their beautiful, wonderful culture is, I have a hard time believing that it's being executed. And then I'll also ask questions like because then it'll give me the follow up questions of like, how do you handle sick leave? Like, how do you handle last minute interruptions to the day? And honestly, like if people are floundering, answering that usually to me just doesn't sit well. So it's less like, what exactly are they saying? It's what they're not saying. If that makes sense. 

Lindsey Vestal That's exactly what came to mind as you were talking. I was thinking, number one, you know, reminder to everyone that we are interviewing them just as much as they are interviewing us. And so thank you for kind of, you know, living that example and giving us giving us examples to see like, well, okay, I've heard that before. That makes sense. And I love that concept. But boots on the ground, what does that look like? And so it is weaving in these questions that are meaningful for you, for either experiences you've had in the past or just projecting forward what you would imagine is something that you kind of want to test the waters a little bit because there is nothing worse than being in that situation and feeling uncomfortable and unhealthy and having to go, How am I going to get on the other side of this? And instead, when it's, you know, this opportunity in this interview setting to to really find out if it's going to be the ideal fit, which at the end of the day, that's what they want as well. Right. They don't want to get in, you know, to have it be a mismatch. So, number one, I really heard you say, you know, this is an interview on both sides. And then number two, if they don't answer or struggle to answer specifically when you're asking for examples, those are red flags. And so what they're not saying as much as what they are saying are some key points there. 

Kelsey Mathias 100%, Yes. 

Lindsey Vestal Incredible. So if someone felt similarly to you when they were in school, you know, really believing that Pelvic health is their career path, but maybe they already have a sense of like, okay, I don't I don't want to start off opening my own practice or, you know, kind of like you did where like, I'm just not sure this is the right, the right thing to do. But perhaps they're struggling getting a job. Right? Maybe that like in my own story, you know, it was a it was your job requirement to be a physical therapist and just kind of kept tossing my resume aside because I didn't meet that basic requirement. So if someone is in that crossroads where they kind of have a sense that entrepreneurship isn't the right step for them, but they're also not able to get a job, do you have any thoughts that you'd like to share with them? 

Kelsey Mathias Yeah. I mean, first and foremost, like we've come so far from 2013 and I feel like more and more opportunities have opened up in the last decade for physical therapists who are running practices to be more open to hiring a team. And so I'd say, like if you see a physical therapy, public health job, apply to it and just see what happens. I will say you're going to have a harder time if it is a corporation, more than likely, because it is hitting a desk and a lot of scenarios before it hits the desk of a hiring manager and so on. I know of people who have like God, like talk to each other, ask like, Hey, is this sitting on your desk? Can I get it moved further forward? And in some instances, you're going to meet a hard stop. And that's just what it's going to be. And like, I'm thinking specifically like the federal government in some instances, like they can't change it unless somebody from the inside changes it, working on it. And then for other places, I think a lot of times they just don't understand what O.T. does. And so in your cover letter, and I know some people say cover letters are going out of style. I've seen it on TikTok. Who knows if it's real? I don't know. I still write a cover letter. And in that cover letter, just really paint a picture of how you're meeting the needs and the requirements of the job. But I feel like those opportunities are opening up more and more and more as I'm talking to people who have kind of helped transition from graduating to school and to finding jobs out in the world, that there's more openness to it. And so I say take the risk and apply. 

Lindsey Vestal I had myself on mute there, but I was cracking up. You said the thing about. Tick Tock says the cover letters were going out of style. 

Kelsey Mathias My gosh. Have you seen that? No. My sister sent it to me. It was so funny because she's like, Am I supposed to write cover letters or. No. Like, I don't know. So I keep writing them. I love that. This is like the first time in my career when I'm like, am I getting older? 

Lindsey Vestal Yeah. There comes a point where we all ask and we're all five over there. 

Kelsey Mathias I know, I know. But I say like also with that, like it's come with a huge amount of confidence knowing that I have experience and knowing that like. If I have to take another job while I wait for one in public health, which is what I did most recently when I moved from North Carolina to Colorado. Again, like I am, I am confident enough to know and trust fate enough that the opportunities will arise and I feel a lot more comfortable with that now. Like if I have to take something in the interim and wait for the right opportunity to come, I'm also like very comfortable in okay with that as well because it gives me the position when I go into an interview of like, I am very well aware of what I am bringing to the table. And for students or people transitioning to public health. There is a huge lack of practitioners and so you are bringing a lot to the table when you are willing to come work for other people because there is such a giant need right now. So I think I would also say like, be aware of what you're bringing to the table and be confident that you don't like have to compromise your soul for a job or your piece. 

Lindsey Vestal That is so important. I mean, that is really I think you need to consider like going into universities, like Job Day or something and sharing these nuggets because it is so true. And you know, you've really worked to you know, you have definitely gotten to the point your career, you kind of like earned these lessons and lived them. And as a friend of yours, I can absolutely attest to that. I mean, it's it's informed so much of who you are and how you live. And I would imagine you wouldn't change any of that for the world. But at the same time, if if we can have these conversations more and more, it's just going to shed so much light. I mean, knowledge is power. We know this is pelvic floor therapists. And so, yeah, this is this is really good stuff. I and also I want to invite everyone like the Facebook community that we have. Like we are growing so strong and so yeah, if you are in a situation and we get these posts on a regular, but if you're in a situation where you're not able to justify, you know, you're getting questions that are hard for you to answer, like this is that collective brain that we have because you're going to post your question and you're going to find someone who's been through it and can share what's worked for them and what hasn't. So don't reinvent that. We all you know, we are making so many hard strides in our profession to to make these doors open with with greater ease. So I encourage that. Now, Kelsey, I know that you're one of the most humble people that I have ever met. And so I know that you are not only attracted to being a change maker, but you truly are. And if you're not comfortable with this, you can absolutely. I will edit this part out. But can you give us an example of some of the things that you have done throughout your career that is moving the needle forward? Either it's happened or you're in the process of doing it to really create that systemic change? 

Kelsey Mathias I mean, I very intentionally chose to work where I am at right now, and a big part of that is I work for the organization, organization that is the largest employer of occupational therapists nationwide. And if we are going to change, like I have found myself in scenarios where I've been able to sit in front of some lovely and wonderful change makers inside of my organization to honestly like the whole bar I'm trying to influence to open up more jobs for pelvic floor therapy for occupational therapists within the federal government. I mean, I said it during my interview, I'm pretty pretty shameless about it. And I think that's the extent of what I can talk about it because government but I can say this one because I don't work for the army right now. When I worked for the Army, I drug my chair up to the table for they had a pelvic floor working group and a pregnancy and postpartum physical training group, which pregnancy and postpartum physical training routine for the army is just physical training for pregnant and postpartum women, which I'm like, That's my jam, I can help you out. And so I knew that that was going to be a part of my job. When I did work for the Army and I pulled up my chair to those two groups, one of the groups was for the one for P3T was to change the curriculum, which was honestly very outdated and in some senses harmful to pregnant postpartum women. As far as the recommendations that they gave, one of the recommendations was like, get back to running at six weeks postpartum and I got that thrown out, like immediately published a retraction and that was beautiful. But as part of that, I very openly and lovingly at the group as they're writing this, they're like, we're adding in pelvic floor physical therapy. I'm like, guys, like, actually it's pelvic floor therapy or public health therapy. I think they now call it public health rehab. But I think it's actually like it's occupational therapist too, just like certified hand therapists and lymphedema specialists and like it would be a tragedy if we had all of these pregnant and postpartum women who are already struggling to find a pelvic floor therapist at all, like be turned away from this huge chunk of public for occupational therapist or public health occupational therapist. Like we should probably change the wording so that people can access the care that they need. And I mean, it took a long time. It just got published. And, you know, two years after that meeting. But Ami put out a publication where they're calling public health rehabilitation as Mission Essential, which and like our new department defense terms. It terms it means like we have to do this. This is mission critical in order for us to succeed as an army as a whole. And when they published it, they included, like you can see public health rehabilitation providers. They are physical therapist or occupational therapist, and they like listed OTs by name. And so like, yeah, I'm going to keep like, I'm going to keep on my chair, dragging my chair to tables and interjecting myself kindly into conversations with a good, humble heart of letting people know like, I work from the assumption that they just don't understand that we do this. And I have found that that has allowed for a lot more change than if I am like throwing a fit about being included. Yeah. 

Lindsey Vestal Well, that's exactly it, isn't it? I think that that's probably 9.9 times out of ten exactly what it is. It's that people just don't know. People don't know it. What occupational therapy is half the time they don't know what pelvic floor therapy is add those two things together. Kind of rest assured there's going to be a little bit of advocacy in the future for you. And so I think that, yeah, coming in with that like, gentle, humble education approach, which as a tease is like our bread and butter, we, we really thrive on that is, is really the best approach. And if we find there's something else going on or behind the scenes like we can tackle that then but really just coming in with like did you know that you know I had Karlan Reham on the podcast recently and she said, Look, it's an act of advocacy. When you're walking, you know, you're in a room, you're walking down the street and someone says, pelvic floor, physical therapy, and you just turn to them and say, Actually, it's physical and occupational therapy. And that in itself is an act of advocacy because it's spreading the word because, as you said, likely it's just lack of lack of awareness, lack of knowledge, which is what public health is already so we're just kind of, you know, doubling down on demystifying those things. 

Kelsey Mathias I mean, exactly. And I will say, like, what a breath of fresh air working at like an army systems. And now VA has been because like as organizations, they truly do have this mission of like mind and their health care systems of like, gosh, if this can help active duty or help veterans like and you can show like there's evidence to support this my gosh we need to do this. Okay, let's go. Which is why, like, I just feel so, like, lovingly content and what I'm doing. 

Lindsey Vestal Kelsey, what a pleasure. Thank you so much for sharing, sharing your wisdom with us and your journey. And it's been, I know, chocked full with so much growth and awareness and advocacy and all of those things that I just admire so much. And so I'm grateful to call you friend and thank you so much for for joining us today and sharing all this with us. 

Kelsey Mathias You are so welcome and thank you for just allowing me to I mean, my hope is like like you touched on to give hope. Like hope. If somebody out there hears this and feels like they can find their peace and knowing that they don't have to be an entrepreneur if that doesn't align with them. I mean, yeah, I did what I came here to do. Thank you so much, Lindsay, for giving me that opportunity. And you are a true, a true jewel and gem. And I'm just I'm so grateful for our friendship. 

Outro Thanks for listening to another episode of OTs and Pelvic health. If you haven't already, hop on to Facebook and join my group OTs for Pelvic health, where we have thousands of OTs at all stages of their Pelvic health career journey. This is such an incredibly supportive community where I go live each and every week. If you love this episode, please take a screenshot of this episode on your phone and posted to IG Facebook or wherever you post your stuff and be sure to tag me and let me know why you like this episode. This will help me to create in the future what you want to hear more of. Thanks again for listening to the OTs and Pelvic health podcast.