"I'm Not Dying, I'm in Menopause" with Ellie Dvorkin Dunn and Julia Granacki

Ellie and Julia's podcast "Circling the Drain"
Resources for Inspiration from them:

• Book: Menopauase Manifesto by Jen Gunther
• Vajenda newsletter by Jen Gunther
• Stacy London's State of Menopause
•  Dr. Rachel Rubin 
• Book: Burnout by Emily Nagoski
• Book: Come As You Care by Emily Nagoski
•  Book: Health At Every Size
• Book: Quit Like a Woman
• Book: Doing Harm
• Julia's Health Coaching

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Transcript

Lindsey Vestal We are seriously in for a treat today. I have two of the most intelligent and hilarious guests today. First, let me introduce you to Ellie Dvorkin Dunn. She is an entertainer, writer and host who has been hailed as outrageous by The New York Times and ready for prime time by The New York Post. Her storytelling has been featured in shows such as Risk Generation, Woman and No, You Tell it. And her writing has been published in Dame magazine. Her favorite project is co-producing and co-hosting. Circling the Drain, a Perimenopausal podcast about the period before you stop getting your period. I'm also joined by Julia Granacki, who is the co-host of the Perimenopause podcast Circling the Drain. She is also a Pilates instructor and a health coach that doesn't like to cook. Good thing her husband does. Her practice is focused on humans born with uteruses. Going through the aggravating and confusing bodily changes associated with midlife. See, She is a graduate of the Institute for Integrative Nutrition with a focus on hormone health. She's an avid practitioner of transcendental meditation, and she likes to smoke pot and listen to records with her husband and her two dogs. All right. This is such a treat. I cannot wait for you to hear as we dive into the hilariously entertaining and hugely informative conversation that I had with these two amazing women. As we talk about another taboo topic, perimenopause and menopausal health. Let's go. Julia and Ellie, thank you so much for joining me on the What's for Pelvic health podcast. Welcome. Welcome. 

Ellie Dvorkin Thank you. 

Julia Granacki Thank you. Hi. Happy to be with you. 

Lindsey Vestal And we're so excited to be with you today. 

Lindsey Vestal Ellie and Julia, I've had the privilege of being on your podcast, which is called Circling the Drain. And I also know both of you back from when I lived in New York City. So we go way back and it's such a privilege to now be speaking with you on my own podcast. Can you tell us a little bit about your podcast? The name I'm sure people are like, What are we talking about circling the drain? Tell me a little bit about this. 

Ellie Dvorkin So our podcast is a perimenopausal podcast about the period before you stop getting your period. The reason it's called Circling the Drain, which a lot of people have come to with sort of a raised eyebrow, like that's really negative. There's enough negativity in women's health. Why are you calling it that? But it's a joke. The story behind it is that a mutual friend of ours went to a doctor in her mid-thirties and was talking about all kinds of issues that she wanted addressed, and he basically shrugged his shoulders at her and said, Well, I got to tell you, from now on, you're basically just circling the drain. And that's a terrible thing for a medical professional, especially a male to tell a female. So we've been joking about that ever since. And as we ourselves have entered perimenopause, we realize that there are so many symptoms associated with this time in our lives and that people don't even know what perimenopause is. They have an idea about menopause. They think it has something to do with being old and having hot flashes. And that's all they know. Even highly educated women in our circles. So we approach the topic with humor, but also lots of science and lots of information. And the goal is to help people find ways to tackle their symptoms, right, Julia? 

Julia Granacki Yeah. Well, I Would say our purpose is to educate and entertain. 

Lindsey Vestal I'm in love with you both. We can..I mean, what an incredible. What an incredible conglomerate of ideas, right? Let's not only poke fun at the fact that we don't know about this, but let's actually do something about it. Like, this is ridiculous. That. Okay, so we're. I'm also in perimenopause, right? And so it's like the thing is that, yes, there's highly educated people out there, not only the medical professionals that we may be going to, but our our peers, our friends, our buddies, our colleagues are going through it kind of in the dark, Right. And it's like, what? This has always been your both of your approaches. And I just love it. It's like we're going to laugh about it and we're going to learn a ton in the process. 

Ellie Dvorkin Right? Lindsey We had a doctor on our podcast who confessed that due to the teeny, tiny amount of education doctors are given about menopause, that she herself didn't even know she was in perimenopause until she took a deep dive into researching what the heck was going on with her body. 

Julia Granacki Let me I'll add. She gave herself a blood test. She she she was like, I think I'm dying. Let me read. She's like, I'm going to run a blood test on myself. No, I'm not dying. I'm in menopause. Yeah. 

Ellie Dvorkin Yeah. 

Lindsey Vestal Maybe that should be. That's your second podcast title. I'm not buying it. I'm in medical. 

Ellie Dvorkin We have so many secondary, tertiary possible amazing titles. Yes, yes. We'll add it to the office. Yeah. 

Lindsey Vestal So wait tell me what to what type of profession? What type of specialty was this doctor?

Ellie Dvorkin I was talking about Mandy Lionheart. Julia, I feel like you were talking about Linda Dahl. 

Julia Granacki Yeah I Was. 

Ellie Dvorkin But you remember Mandy Leonhart Yeah, she wasn't she a. 

Ellie Dvorkin Mandy Leonhart, a. 

Ellie Dvorkin GYN. 

Julia Granacki Yeah, Mandy Lionheart is a GYN. She is also she's a German British national, right? Is that correct? She's a German living in Britain. And, and yeah. So both of these doctors, similar stories, but different different outcomes. So Mandy Lionheart became more of a specialist once she realized what was going on. She was like, Well, I need to do more about this for women. So that's like, you know, inspired her to do more. Linda Dahl is she is an EMT, and that just happened to be her back story was that she was like, what's going to me? Yeah, Linda Dahl. And then she was like, I'm I'm not dying. I'm just in very menopause. Right? Yeah. So similar to different doctors that this happened to. Yeah. 

Lindsey Vestal Linda Dahl actually performed my daughter's tongue tongue tie clip when I was living in Manhattan. So when you mention that name, I got I got all kind of good feelings. But the thing here is, okay, so Linda is an anti sue, right? So that's that's kind of a little bit out of her out of her expertise. Sure. But but the other doctor you mentioned, I mean, she's serving women who are having these symptoms who are coming into her maybe not overtly mentioning, I think, of in perimenopause, because as Ellie said in her introduction, it's the period before your period stops. So it's this very misunderstood period of time of what we're going through. And it can kind of can go in and out of symptoms. But to imagine this doctor treating these women not even knowing or understanding and being prepared to help them, then to have this wake up call. Right. And the thing is that, you know, and I'm saying this very delicately and actually very respectfully, because it is what a lot of us experience. I mean, I got into pelvic health, you know, thinking I was going to serve the elderly population. And then when I started my family, I stopped everything. And I was like, no, no, no, this has got to go back to the pre and postnatal period. So it's very often a wake up call when we go through something to be able to then serve and recognize and educate. And I, and I totally, I totally get that. And I hope that all of these people now going through these things like us, like the three of us, can cause the ripple effects that maybe help us start the journey and educational period sooner. 

Julia Granacki Yeah, I mean, that's how Ellie and I came to it, you know, I think, you know, was it affects you directly. Unfortunately, once it affects you directly, that's typically when you pay attention. And I think we're trying to get women to pay more attention to it before it happens. You know, we're very interested in reaching younger populations so that they can be prepared because, you know, when we were growing up, I was like menopause, like, I don't know, like get like a drive ad, you get some hot flashes. Like, I don't know, that's so far off. I don't have to think about that now. And it's like there are things you can do to kind of prepare for all these things that are coming at you instead of showing up the day that it happens and going, What do I do now? Like nobody told me. 

Ellie Dvorkin And then the fact that there are symptoms that you wouldn't in naturally associate with it, like increased anxiety, sleep disturbances, agitation could be depression, things that you think are, you know, maybe just a mental health issue. Well, they are, but they are as a result of a drop in estrogen. Hormonal changes in general. So there are so many symptoms that are in this profile. And, you know, you can Google what is perimenopause and how long does it last. But a number that we've consistently found is a huge span of time. It's it can last anywhere from four months to 14 years. So if we were just talking about four months, we could go back to, you know, the old timey approach of just grit your teeth. You'll get through it. It'll be over soon. But then if you're talking closer to 14 years and we're talking about 14 years of waking up four times a night to pee or tossing and turning because you're hot and cold during your sleep or being like gritting your teeth through anxiety or any number of symptoms. That's not acceptable. We have to find approaches to make ourselves feel better. And there are things. So that's why we're here. 

Lindsey Vestal Yeah. And so, I mean, I would love for everybody to listen to your podcast. You both are hilarious. You guys are really you're changing the landscape. You're making the conversation accessible, approachable and actionable. And I hope everyone listens to it. But what sticks out in both of your minds from the experiences, the conversations, the research that you've had to dive into in hosting your podcast? Like, what really sticks out for you as to something that you wished everyone listening would know, and especially people like occupational therapists who are serving this population and maybe teetering on that edge of perimenopause and menopause in their own lives. 

Ellie Dvorkin It's. It's this. It's that. At least for my personality. I like to know what to expect. So if any kind of professional, whether it's an T or a doctor or anyone that I'm working with, says to me, Listen, there is no one size fits all approach to fixing the various things that are going on with you. But I'm here with you and we're first going to try this and let's give that a little bit of time and then please don't get disheartened if that doesn't work, because I have several tools in my toolbox tricks up my sleeve, however you want to phrase it. And we are going to stick together as a team and keep trying things until we find what makes you feel better. And I think being told that up front as a patient or a recipient of services can be hugely helpful because sometimes we go to a professional with a hope of like, they're going to give me a pill or they're going to give me an exercise, right? Even think of that physical therapy. They're going to give me an exercise and I'm going to feel better. Well, it doesn't always it takes time, right, to fix anything, to help anything. And so being given that expectation upfront, I think could be hugely helpful. What do you think, Julia? 

Julia Granacki I mean, I couldn't agree more. I think that, like you and I always talk about naming it. Being able to name something is really important so that you it takes it demystifies what's going on. And I think what women love well I think what everyone loves, but like women, you know, we like information. I mean, that's just what I think. But, you know, being able to demystify what's going on with your body and having that information and being able to name it makes it less terrible, in my opinion. The other thing, too, is that our bodies evolve over time. So what works for you when you're 45th May not work for you in your 65. So you have got to be flexible with your care and whoever you are seeing, whatever medical professional you're seeing, they need to be flexible as well. They have to know that it's not set it and forget it. They have to know that like they put you on. Let's just say they put you on HRT at a particular dose of estrogen and a particular dose of progesterone When you're like 50, that those doses will probably change over time. So just remaining flexible, but it's a good time to to your point or to your question earlier, Lindsay, about, you know, people working in O.T., I think it's important to understand that you may think that this as a professional in, you know, an and an occupational therapist, understanding that you may think that this doesn't affect your modality or like what you're doing, but it totally does. So, you know, for example, pelvic organ prolapse is a great example for, you know, you've got 50% of women over 50 experience a change in the position of where the bladder, the cervix, the uterus and or rectum sit in the pelvis. So that's you, right? That's not who's going to be like handling managing that urinary incontinence. That's another thing that you're going to be dealing with or managing for women, you know, as they age. And then thinking back to just hormones or hormones, you know, hormonally, when you have less estrogen, that can cause the tissue of the barba and the lining of the vagina to become thinner or dryer, less elastic or flexible. So all of the stuff is going to affect. Essentially, you know, the way that, you know, whether you get UTIs as you age, that kind of a thing or how comfortable you can be when you're sitting like all of these things kind of lead into occupational therapy but then can be complemented, for example, with hormone therapy. So maybe you're doing vaginal estrogen, but you're also getting, you know, pelvic floor therapy to help with some of your of your issues. So I don't know if that if that kind of like answers the question as well, Lindsey, as to how these things sort of intersect. 

Lindsey Vestal Absolutely. I love what both of you said. And I think the thing that really stuck out to me is, number one, the team aspect of the of it. Right? Like being able to have a provider that I mean, what Ellie said, like I, I would die if a professional said that to me. If someone said to me, we are going to work together, we're going to do what it takes to help you get through this and it's going to be customized, right? This we may not get it right the first time or we may get it right. And you may need a different a different approach in five years. That setting, that expectation is everything. Because I think sometimes when we don't and something doesn't work, we may think something is the matter with us. We may think, what's wrong with me? This worked for all of her other clients, all of our other, you know, patients. And so then if we're already experiencing a certain level of anxiousness that's spiraling out of control with these thoughts that we're going through. So, number one, I always talk about this with people have taken out pioneers and people who are in my 80s for pelvic floor Facebook group number one, like always approaching it as a team, but also setting expectations so that we're working together also brings the client along. And many of the teams I work with naturally have this approach, but their clients aren't used to it. And so when we when we tell them like, Hey, we don't know the answer or we're not sure, let's find someone who does, I'm going to find someone who does. We're going to we're going to arrive at this together. It actually helps build that rapport and makes that relationship even stronger and gives that person sort of their support person. And so I feel like, you know, being able to kind of recognize that we don't have to know all the answers that often. Our client has all the information and the answers that they need also helps us realize that we're part of that team structure. And I always feel like that serves the client the best. 

Julia Granacki I couldn't agree more. And I think also it gives you freedom to admit that you don't know something that's very freeing. Right? Because it's you're able to provide better care for your client instead of it's useless to pretend you know something you get that just gets into this whole like area of being an authentic with your with your client. And it's you're not expected to know every single thing. Not to mention with the way that studies are going and the data comes out things you know can change from day to day. We're getting new information all the time. So, you know, you don't have to know every single thing. And and which is also why, you know, we talk about and I talk about with my clients, like if you've got good information, for example, you know, the Nam's repositioning the 2022 repositioning on menopause, hormone therapy, like not every doctor is going to be up to speed on the study that just came out. So I say print the study, digest it, make sure you can speak intelligently about it, bring it with you to talk to your provider about taking, you know, menopause hormone therapy. If they're not if they're not up on what's happening, you know, have the data. So backing that up, understanding that information's changing all the time and that you may not always have the answer, but if you're willing to work with your or with your client to find it and work with their other providers, I mean, I think kind of what you were saying before, that idea of working as a team is really important. I can remember I was having this terrible, like lower back issue. This was years ago. I had a snowball cyst and some other stuff going on with my lower my lower spine and my my orthopedist, who's really incredible. He was like, well, let me get on the phone with your physical therapist. And they were not you know, they weren't in the same group. You know, I was going to a physical therapist outside of like the the the authors like team or whatever. And it was like my my physical therapist was like, I've never had an orthopedist call me before. 

Ellie Dvorkin Yeah. 

Julia Granacki You know, And I was like, that's ridiculous. Like, how? Like, that's crazy. So I think, you know, having a line of communication between your providers and having providers willing to speak to each other, I mean, that's how you provide holistic care. 

Lindsey Vestal Exactly, Exactly. And I think sometimes it just takes one of us to do that. Yeah. You know, so, so probably it's going to be the US, the OT, who might be initiating that. But I think that most, most quality doctors are going to go, wait a second, this feels really good and I may be busy as heck, but like, you know what, the information that I either got from the facts, from the phone call, from a Post-it note that was left by, you know, the the administrator like this isn't this this is helping me understand this a little bit better. And so I think, you know, for for the medical professional that feels at odds with their time and the quality of care they're able to provide, because that's a real issue. You know, when they get a taste of a practitioner who is kind of going above and beyond, it really does go back to like why they got into this field to begin with. And it might kick start. Something that they wish they always had time for, and maybe they're not getting back to you, but they're in there taking in that information that's happened. That's happened for me a lot, actually, when I was serving post-prison postnatal people on the Upper West Side, Upper East Side, some of those doctors, they were getting back to me. But I know they read the notes because very often my client would say to me, Hey, you know, so-and-so mentioned that they saw your note. And it it really helped. It helped them figure out what we were going to do next. And I loved that. And so I didn't always get the satisfaction of knowing but make the effort because it does have ripple effects that sometimes you get the satisfaction of realizing and maybe other times you don't. But it does impact the client that you're serving. 

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Ellie Dvorkin For sure. 

Julia Granacki Yeah, I think that's also where something that I really love about health coaching is that, you know, we're, we're kind of we're a bit of a stopgap in between some of that care. Right. We're here to help the client holistically and connect all the dots and kind of. Pick up where providers can't always. They don't have the time to take, you know, like you wish your doctor had like 30 minutes to spend with you during each appointment. But sometimes they don't, you know. And so to work as like a team player to kind of like see the client holistically and be able to connect the doctors, connect the dots, and then, you know, see if there's another like avenue for care, I think is really important. 

Lindsey Vestal So, Julia, tell us tell us a little bit about this. I first met you when you were a Pilates instructor, which I think you're still doing. 

Julia Granacki Yeah. I'm finishing up my apparatus training as we speak. So still working on it. It's a long it's a long journey. There's a lot of hours. Lots and lots of hours to put in. Yeah. 

Lindsey Vestal And then you've added health coaching. 

Julia Granacki Yes. 

Lindsey Vestal Which is a phenomenal combination. And I mean, your practice as as I read in the bio, your practice really focuses on humans born with uteruses, going through confusing changes, midlife. So tell, tell us a little bit, I mean for, for OTA's and for people who may not know, you know it's that beautiful stop gap is amazing right? It's that period in between when maybe, you know, it's really supporting somebody who has the time and the expertise going through some of these things that then can go back to the doctor and and share some of that information, such as like that updated document that you mentioned that probably the doctor doesn't know about. Give us a sense of kind of like that, that support that you offer so that we as OTs kind of understand when it when it makes sense to bring someone like yourself into the picture? Sure. 

Julia Granacki So I would say a lot of what I do is education and mindset coaching. So, you know, a lot of people don't know where to start, right? Or they start and then they kind of fizzle out on whatever their health journey is or whatever their goals are that they're trying to achieve. So I'm help I'm here to help figure out what those larger goals are and then find a pathway there. I'm providing accountability. I'm also helping the client set realistic, step by step actions to achieve those goals. Okay. And then identifying challenges that can be hidden. Right. Because if you you know, a lot of times we start these with, you know, like if you're let's just for a for an example, you're trying to lose weight and you're doing all the things, but something always gets in the way and you can't really identify what that is. We're here to I'm here to help you figure out what that barrier might be that's preventing you from making that change. And then I'm here to give you tools for problem solving so that you can figure out what those what to do with those obstacles as they arise on your own. Right. I'm not here to tell you what to do. You're really it's really a client led. Sort of situation. But, you know, I would say that I bring. So I'm bringing like all of the health and wellness information that I have, which is there to navigate a variety of concerns. And then I use a lot of a lot of more like psychological like mindset tools, like motivational interviewing, positive psychology and something called Stages of Change and also smart goals. So. A lot of times. Here's another good example. You know, like a client will go to the doctor and the doctor says, you know, your your blood pressure is a little high. Your cholesterol is not great. Like, you could probably lose 10 pounds and that would really help you. And then they like, send them on their way. Yeah, right. But they're not like, this is how you can, you know, they don't give you the they don't give you a pathway to losing the 10 pounds to lowering your cholesterol, to, you know, finding a way to lower your blood pressure. They're going to instead they're going to put you on medication and then they're going to send you out the door and say, okay, I'll, you know, go lose 10 pounds and I'll see you. I'll see you for your annual next year. So that's where I would come in also. You know, you would meet with me. We discuss your goals. Will do you. Would you like to lower your your, you know, your your cholesterol? Do you want to lower your blood pressure or do you want to lose 10 pounds? Okay. Why? Why do you want to do that? We want to talk about intrinsic and extrinsic motivation as to why you want to do these things. And then we would discuss how to get there, what's realistic. Like you're not going to it's not realistic for a person perhaps who's, you know, working. They have a very high stress job. So it's like we have to deal with the stress, right? It may not be realistic for them to work out like five days a week. That's not something they can do. Well, what can they do? How can we get exercise into the program? What can we bring in to make things, you know, a little healthier so that we can achieve these goals? So that way when they and here's a good example of why it would be good for me to like, be in touch with the doctor so that I can say, okay, like, you know, their their cholesterol is high, but like, how high is it? And like, do you think, you know, do you want this patient to get off of their medication eventually? Like, is that a realistic thing? You know, is that something that that I should work on them or work with them on? So yeah, that would be that's a good example of where I would come in. 

Ellie Dvorkin I want to speak on behalf of Julia for a second. Not that she needs a commercial. I am not a client of Julia's. I'm a friend. So I get to, like, benefit from her brilliance just for free. Because Julia came to this career. She's. This is a mid-life career change Julia is making. And it is therefore a passion of hers. Unlike someone who, you know, they're a teenager. What am I going to do when I grow up? They go to college for a thing. They stick with it. Maybe they're phoning it in. Maybe they don't love it. She loves it to the point where, like she said earlier, if she doesn't know the answer, she will tell you, I'm going to go away and I'm going to come back with ideas. And she does. And she has often come up with things as potential problem solvers for issues I've been having that I never would have thought of. I'm not a wellness coach. I'm not a doctor, but I do research pretty well and she's come up with things that have been incredibly helpful, that have changed my life, that I have stuck with. And she's really thoughtful about her research and she's really determined. And also just I think for potential clients, really, really approachable and trustworthy. And so, yeah, I'm I'm really proud of you, Julia, and I'm excited for people to come to you and people for to to refer people to you, because I think you're going to help a lot of humans. 

Julia Granacki With you think silly I mean, I want to add to that. Like, you know, I I'm very if you listen to our podcast at all, you know that I'm I'm I'm a science witch I am into evidence based methods and science. So I'm not here to sell you vitamins. I'm not here to sell you on garbage, you know, fad diets and things like that. I just think that's a waste of everyone's time and I'm not into it, but I'm also not a doctor. So I'm not I'm not going to be prescriptive. I'm not a dietitian. I'm not going to put you on a meal plan. That's not my job. I'm here to I'm here for mindset coaching. I'm here to get you where you need to be and figure out the way to get there. 

Ellie Dvorkin And like, for example, you know, she recommended that I cut out gluten for a month to see if we could correct an issue I was having. And the way she presented it was like, you can do anything for 30 days, like you can, don't you know? And I was like, Right, 30 days, Yes, I can. And it really wasn't a big deal. And funnily enough, it didn't correct the things, the thing we set out to correct. But if you had. Yeah. Everybody she had. Yeah, I had. Yes. Cutting out gluten didn't help the gas problem. Something else helped the gas problem. But I learned that by cutting out gluten, I sleep better. And if you Google sleep and gluten, you won't really find a lot of connections between it. But for some reason, I don't know if it's inflammation or what it is for me and my unique little body over here. But not eating gluten helps me sleep. And when I do eat it, my sleep is effed. So, you know, this is again, a wellness coach like someone who recommends a thing and is open to the idea that, All right, well, look what serendipity thing we found. You know, like we set out for this. We found that Now what can we do for for thing a anyway, Ellie. 

Julia Granacki How was your sleep last night? Why was your sleep last night? We both Ellie and I both had gluten last night for dinner together. 

Ellie Dvorkin I took an Ambien, so I slept beautifully. Thank you for asking. 

Julia Granacki I slept terrible and I was thinking, dammit. I was like, The gluten got me. It got me again. 

Ellie Dvorkin I have Ambien on hand to take as needed. I ate the gluten and it was a late night. The gluten. 

Julia Granacki You ate the Ambien. 

Ellie Dvorkin I ate the gluten, I ate the Ambien. I slept well. Thank you for asking. It's something I do nightly. 

Lindsey Vestal But that's just it. Because you have that information, you can make a decision like you knew what you were getting into early and you were like, I'm going to take I'm going to eat the gluten. Like, you know, this. What was it last night to Monday night? Ellie. 

Julia Granacki I wasn't sure. I was sure. Monday sounds great. 

Lindsey Vestal Friday night we're going to say it's Friday night. It was Friday night. Ellie had gluten and she knew what she was getting into. And that's the thing, because you are working with someone who is on your team, but also that you're being introspective, right? Because because here's the thing. Many times when people are like, okay, we're going to we're going to take you off gluten to see if it helps. With the gas world singularly focused on the gas we're going is the gas getting better? I don't know. What do you think? Well, I only had it three times yesterday, but it sounds like, Ellie, you were kind of open and observe being an observant be having an observant mentality and going, well, what other changes am I noticing? My gosh, My sleep. Like it's it's it's it has morphed over the last 30 days. And I think that's really important to keep an open mind to all of the things that you may be experiencing, whether or not they were related to what you set out to change. And it's that sort of, you know, introspection and intersection that can really can really enhance your life because there are all of these overlapping factors that are aren't always clear cut. They're not always said in giving us the result that we are hoping for. And so I just think that's really beautiful. And I also have to say, Julia, there's so many tools that you mentioned and motivational interviewing, smart goals. I mean, so many things. And even just your approach, that is so OT. 

Julia Granacki Cool because I love what you all do. 

Lindsey Vestal There really. There's a huge there's a huge overlap there. I think that's even in the you know, every time we've talked, I've always just, you know, we're speaking the same language. So it's a beautiful thing. I love it.

Julia Granacki I am. Ellie. Sorry. 

Lindsey Vestal Go ahead. 

Julia Granacki I was going to say that I similarly like I so I always tell people to approach things with skepticism in a very positive way, like go into the world, experiment with the tools that you have, and then let me know what works. They're separate for everybody. 

Ellie Dvorkin Yeah. 

Lindsey Vestal You're totally right. You're totally right. And I and I think that sometimes that scares people and sometimes it's a really open, amazing thing because we're so used to going, okay, if it's not if it's not a it's or a is going to cause B and it's this linear progression that I think the medical community usually encourages us or tells us in a not so uncertain direct terms like this is the way it's supposed to go and when it goes a different way or a different positive thing, we're not. We have to be open to this other positive thing that could happen so that we recognize that it is so individual. So, Ellie, you and Julia have you know, you guys have worked together on a lot of projects circling your brain is is a clearly brilliant comedic opportunity, which I love. But tell me, are you guys working together on anything else or are there any other things in the works that we can look forward to? 

Ellie Dvorkin Yes. So in addition to her coaching wellness practice, Julia came up with this great idea for us to partner on a group coaching scenario, and we've named it Perimenopause Our Hour. And at the time of the airing of this episode, we are in beta testing. So we have a small group of women who have signed up and Julia has created a beautiful curriculum based on these three concepts. Validate your symptoms, educate yourself. We will help educate them on what the symptoms are, why they're experiencing them, and possible treatments that are available. And also teaching our group how to advocate for themselves at doctor's appointments. So many people give over to authority, clam up and just show up. Maybe with a small list of concerns, get told what they get told, get sent out the door and leave, wishing they had said more, wishing they had known more to present to their provider. So we're really excited about this and I am not a certified health and wellness coach. I am not in the medical field in any way, but I'm coming to it, partnering with Julia as a host and facilitator so that like our podcast Circling the Drain, we are educating and helping people, but also making it really fun. Not that Julia's not fun, but you're really is very good. But she. 

Julia Granacki You're the fun. 

Lindsey Vestal Go ahead. 

Julia Granacki The funner person is that a word. 

Ellie Dvorkin Like made Is that a fun contest, you guys? It's not a fun but if it were, you would win is only because you have so much work to do when it comes to creating this curriculum and teaching the material. And, you know, we've got a Hipa agreement, all the things that are, you know, professional and I'm just coming to it to be like, Hey, everybody, you know, doing the icebreakers, making sure everyone feels comfortable, making sure everyone feels safe, that they can share what's going on with their bodies. You know, a friend of mine who is turning 50 soon approached me personally. Recently, she had seen all the social media posts about our upcoming beta test, and she really would be the perfect person to participate. But she said, I just don't feel comfortable talking about my body in a public forum. And I didn't try to convince her for this one. I said, okay, I get that. And I sort of feel like we'll beta test it and then I can come to her and say, Listen, we tried this and we had a few shy women and a few women who didn't want to just talk about their vagina in front of a group of strangers. And guess what? They did? And they felt great. It's it's not all about vaginas. That was just a crass example. But, you know, I hope that this beta test helps us see that this really is a good way of coming together as women because, look, this is why Julia and I started this podcast, because as friends, the older we got our our annual birthday dinners together or our hey, we haven't met for a catch up in a while, the entire subject matter would be based on what was going on with our bodies. And there's so much power and validation in talking to another woman and saying, Me too. my God, I'm sweating it night and then I'm cold and I'm hot. And me too. So that that great big me to that great big. You know, I'm not the only one. I'm not alone. My body's not weird. You know, that's such a unique thing to women feeling. Maybe just humans feeling like our bodies are strange and weird. But really, even though they're all unique, they're also also similar. So if we can talk about that in a group setting and help people go out into the world to to make themselves feel better, I'm really excited about that. So thanks for listening. 

Lindsey Vestal To it like such a natural extension of the podcast because the podcast is the thing to get out there and serve the masses and, you know, get us laughing on the way to work and. Really pondering stuff that we're experiencing. But this group program is that intimate sort of one on one slash group experience where you're really getting your your individual questions answered. And I love the three words that you put together which were validate, educate and advocate. I mean, that is an incredible powerhouse of terms that. Julia, it's phenomenal. It's phenomenal. Like I love I love this, I love this project. And it really does seem like the next the next step, you know, the next. Very, like personally satisfying, professionally advocating, like next step after the podcast. 

Julia Granacki Thanks. We are we're very we're very excited. And just to kind of dovetail onto the education part, you know, it's it's of course, we're talking about advocating to, you know, in a medical setting. But let's not forget we're going to cover corporate setting how to talk to your boss about it, how to talk to your friends about it. How do you talk to your husband, your family, your friends, and let them know, guess what, everybody? I'm having some brain fog today, so bear with me. You know, like that kind of a thing. Like, I have this joke, you know, I'm still at I'm still at my day job. I'm not quite in the in my side. Hustle is not my fault. My full time hustle yet. But, you know, my day job, I always joke with my boss, you know, I'll just say like. He'll he'll, he'll ask me to, like, recall something. He'll say, Remember that person that we met, you know, like three years ago? And they did X, Y and Z. And I'll be like, I can't remember that. You can't count on me to do that anymore. I'm going to have to look it up. Gimme, gimme, like ten minutes and I'll go find it for you. But I'm not going to be able to remember on the spot. Can't do that anymore. You know, just like. And with us, it's a funny. It's like a joke, you know, it's fine. But just understanding, like, how to communicate that, like, things are different now and that's okay. And you shouldn't lose your job over it either, which there are. Women are leaving the workplace right now because it's so bad because they can't cope. 

Ellie Dvorkin And in my home life. My husband and I went on a rare date the other night and we were talking about the podcast and he listens to it regularly and he doesn't have to. I would love him whether he listened to it or not, but he does. And he says it gives him such important insight into just what I'm going through. And so when I behave a certain way, he just doesn't even question it or that, you know, there's no argument. There's no he's like, he just gets it. And we have friends who are gay men who don't have female partners, but listen to the podcast because it helps them understand their sisters, their coworkers. You know, this is information that's helpful to everybody. There's a huge percentage of the population that are women between I don't know what mid-thirties and mid-fifties who are going through these things and understanding that just benefits everybody. 

Lindsey Vestal Where do you guys go to stay current? Like how, how how are you this information, you know, it just is not as readily available as as we would like. And I really do think you guys are change makers in that direction. But where where do you guys go to stay current? 

Ellie Dvorkin Julia. Julia. 

Julia Granacki I mean, I always I get my apple headlines, obviously, right? Then like, I have, like, you know, tickler set, you know, for menopause, perimenopause and like, women's health issues. So anything that comes up in my newsfeed, I'm always reading. But, you know, obviously the sort of go to is are always going to be like your PubMed, right? I like I said, I'm a science which so. Mayo Clinic is another good one. You know, like. Yeah. Any any kind of like major, sort of like science hub. So I'm always looking for the science based things. I'm not going to go places I'm not going to go. Would be like health line, Do you know what I mean? Or I'd I can't even these other places escape me. But I'm always looking for published papers, you know, prevention magazine like things anything that's got like actual doctors involved in in the research that's where I'm going. 

Ellie Dvorkin And we also follow a lot of doctors that we have since the privilege of meeting or talking to. Who have their fingers on the pulse of the latest information. Mandy Leon Hart, who we mentioned earlier, who changed her own life and focus because she's the doctor who was shocked that she didn't even know that she was going through menopause, has since made it her mission to find the latest studies and talk about them on her. Is it a is it a website, Julia, or is it a tiered. She's she she goes by hormone equilibrium. 

Julia Granacki Yeah, but she's always tweeting. That's another. Yeah. I would say like she tweeted for example. So here's an here's an interesting thing. So Britain is a little bit ahead of us on the research on the menopause research. So I'm always getting interesting stuff off of her, like her Twitter feed and she shows her show like link to, you know, papers published in the UK. For example, she linked to this study about women taking off label testosterone, for example. I've been taking testosterone off label, which means, you know, typically testosterone is prescribed to men, but women do also have testosterone. And it can be helpful for women who are struggling with low libido and like all kinds of things. And so I was taking it and I felt like I felt like I was getting more like belly fat. Come to find out, they discovered that there is a correlation between taking testosterone and belly fat. So I stopped taking it because it was just giving me like a real hairy purse and wasn't really doing anything else for me. So I quit it. But but yeah, so she's always she's always linking to like really good things. So yeah, we definitely follow, you know, a lot of doctors that are giving good information and linking to published papers. But you know, it's like, but, but again, it's like the basic sites that you would think I'm going to like, you know, menopause.org. I'm checking out NAMs, I'm doing like Harvard Health or like and I like that kind of stuff. And then, and then, yeah, like just any of these doctors that we follow who've got, you know, science based information. Yeah. 

Lindsey Vestal That's fantastic. And then in terms of like favorite resources, books, you know, accessible consumable information that maybe your clients would be interested because, you know, not everybody's a science witch.. 

Julia Granacki Got only so many. So Ellie, you go first because I have too many to count. 

Ellie Dvorkin Well, the menopause manifesto written by Dr. Jen Gunter is a really fantastic new ish book that I I'm not as much of a science which as Julia and sometimes, you know, the dense science stuff makes me go to sleep a little bit. But the Menopause Manifesto is a fantastic, digestible book that anyone in the perimenopause or menopausal period of their life can and should read. 

Julia Granacki And follow her on Instagram because she is an absolute joy. 

Ellie Dvorkin She's amazing. Is amazing. Has a newsletter you can subscribe to called The Agenda that is just questions and somebody will send her a question and she'll write. Here's the short answer and then here's the long answer. And I love both. 

Julia Granacki Yeah, she'll be like answers. The short answer is no. You should put you should not put tobacco in your vagina. The long answer is this. 

Ellie Dvorkin Here's why. 

Julia Granacki Here's why I like she's. So if you know, if you like a sense of humor with your with your menopausal or like your, you know, your what your vaginal health like a dose of humor like she is she's so sciencey and so funny and incredible. So incredible that like she partner with a shoe company and they like designed and name your shoe after her, right? 

Ellie Dvorkin Yes. Yes. 

Julia Granacki Yeah. She's. 

Lindsey Vestal Wow. I can't wait to see what that looks like. 

Julia Granacki She's pretty incredible. We're huge fans. We really want to get her on the pod. We've been courting her for a while, you know. 

Ellie Dvorkin Look at her. She'll come... 

Julia Granacki Yeah, And then I would. You could tell them about Stacy Land. She's. She doesn't have a book, but, like, again, she's a good resource. 

Ellie Dvorkin Well, Stacey London, who used to host What Not to Wear, has shifted careers. She created a company called State of Menopause that makes products geared towards relieving menopausal symptoms like a cooling spray or. Or a vaginal suppository. And lots of different stuff. Arnica Joint cream. But because this is her mission, you know, she's more than just an entrepreneur and purveyor of these products. If you follow her, she is tapped into all of the leading doctors and organizations and voices for women in midlife. So she's a great person to follow and look at. Also, you know, we are close with an organization that's fairly new called Let's Talk menopause.org. Their website not only has a ton of helpful resources, but they also host what are called menopause talks, I think. And we actually found one of our incredible guests via that. Her name was Dr. Rachel Rubin and she's a growth gynecologist and sexual health specialist. And she was along with yours, Lindsay. One of my favorite episodes because she. It was an information packed episode that was delivered in such a digest. That's what you're asking for, right? Such a digestible way. So if people look for Dr. Rachel Reuben, any anything that she's published, any time you can watch a recording of her speaking, you will learn mountains of helpful information. 

Lindsey Vestal Yeah, awesome. I'm going to throw all of this in the show notes so people can follow these things. These are these are great new resources. I love it.

Julia Granacki Yeah. I mean, in terms of books, I would like I would say one of my favorites lately is Emily and Amelia Nagoski's Burnout and Come As You Are. These are both fantastic books and talk about digestible it's you know, like it's amusing. It will make you angry. It will make you laugh. It will make you feel seen. It will give you tools to, you know, works through through some things that you might be going through in your life. And they've got like a podcast and they have all kinds of resources for practitioners. They have like a workbook that's going to be coming out. So they have some really cool stuff to look into. If you want to look into it as a as a practitioner. Also, if you want to look into it just as like a human person. There's also a great book called Health at Every Size, which is I mean, it's pretty incredible. It's just about just sort of the bullshit, if I can say it. Can I say bullshit on this? I think I can. Okay. Yeah. The bullshit around. Well, back to Emily and Amelia. The what they called the bikini industrial complex. That's not what health and at every size is about that they're, you know, the sort of the bullshit around like obesity and being heavy and how it's just garbage and how the BMI is garbage and. Yeah. And that you can be quote unquote overweight and have great bloodwork and all the things and be perfectly healthy and perfectly fine and. Trying to figure out, like if you want to lose weight, why do you want to lose weight? Is culture telling you to lose weight? Or do you, you know or is a doctor telling, you know, like just trying to kind of like figure out what what that's about. So it's a really good book. 

Ellie Dvorkin One more. I have one. 

Julia Granacki Yeah. Do it. 

Ellie Dvorkin So this was really, you know, sometimes people dismiss things that are highly trendy. And it was mentioned in the reboot of Sex and the City, but I read it before that. It's called Quit Like a Woman by Holly Whittaker. And it's about stopping drinking alcohol. And I can just feel people who love their mommy wine or their mommy juice or whatever, just like shutting down. But the book changed my life. It's I was I did not have a drinking problem by any definition. But reading about both this sort of entertaining aspect of her life and her journey as just a regular person who drinks socially too, you know, for her, she she didn't classify it as a problem. But the science behind ethanol, which is what alcohol is and what it actually does, your body is so important for women in midlife because when you're talking about sleep disturbances, when you're talking about anxiety and when you're talking about depression, alcohol very much affects all of those things. And I stopped drinking alcohol and I feel so much better. And, you know, you can't tell people by reading the book at least will allow people to decide for themselves, really understanding the marketing behind, you know, booze and then like the machine that's behind it and the money that's behind it. And then the signs of what it's doing to all their organs and parts and their brain. Then, you know, you can you can choose whether or not to have one once in a while or have some as often as you're having it. 

Julia Granacki Yeah. I have one last one if I can. 

Ellie Dvorkin I love that. 

Julia Granacki It's called Doing Harm. And so if you want to here's the thing. Who if you're ready to get, like, really angry, like this is the book for you. It's called Doing Harm. It's the truth about how bad medicine and lazy science leave women dismissed, misdiagnosed and sick. And talk about. Being feeling seen, you know, by this book like it's the history of science and women in the in the medical profession and then as patients and just sort of the history of people of color, you know, it's just it's it's upsetting, but it's really worth the read and it gives you a background on why. Yeah. Why? When you go to the doctor, you feel like you're not being taken seriously. This is why it tells you why. 

Ellie Dvorkin Yeah. 

Lindsey Vestal Ladies, you are amazing. You've added so many great things for me to consume and learn about and share with anyone and everyone. I am so grateful for your time today. Is there anything else that you feel like you wanted to mention or share or you were? It kind of popped into your mind. As we've been spending this last hour together. 

Ellie Dvorkin Just please check out our podcast, Circling the Drain podcast.com and check out Julia's services at Julia wellness.com and just Lindsay thank you for everything you do in the world. I met you a long time ago when you were helping a dear friend of mine who had pelvic health issues. And I'm a huge supporter of you and I'm really happy that you've started this podcast, which is another wonderful avenue for your expertise and a glowing personality. 

Julia Granacki Everything she said. 

Ellie Dvorkin Amazing. Thank you.