The Balance Between Tension + Release with Hypermobile Clients

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Transcript

Lindsey Vestal New and seasoned OTs are finding their calling in Pelvic health. After all, what's more ADL than sex, peeing and poop? But here's the question What does it take to become a successful, fulfilled and thriving OT in Pelvic health? How do you go from beginner to seasons and everything in between? Those are the questions and this podcast will give you the answers. We are inspired OTs, we are out of the box OTs, we are Pelvic health OTs. I'm your host Lindsey Vestal and welcome to the OTs and Pelvic health Podcast. 

Lindsey Vestal So thrilled and so excited to be talking today with Esther Miltiades. And this is going to be a conversation that is so near and dear to my heart. We're kind of talking about two things today. The main topic is about supporting the hyper mobile clients. We're also, however, going to talk a little bit about transitioning with ease to virtual sessions. I am joined by someone that I respect incredibly, Esther, who is my Alexander Technique teacher. She is based in England, which means we're a little bit closer to one another on the same time zone, and it has been such a joy to do lie downs and to experience that technique through her world. And we started talking about the hyper mobile client and the best way to support them, because this is something that as pelvic floor therapists, we encounter all the time. So I'm really excited to bring her perspective in today. And then we sort of segue when we were planning our session kind of about how it's been for us to transition to the virtual space being that we are hands on practitioners, right? So much of what we do is education and virtual queuing, but so much of what we hang our hat on is the hands on work. So Esther and I got into a really interesting conversation. I said, We've got to share this. We've got to share this with my group. So she so lovingly and agreed to do that. So we're going to segway into both. However, before we do that, I want to share with you guys a very brief definition of the Alexander technique, because there may be quite a few people here who are not familiar with it. And so I want to sort of like start this conversation off with a very brief definition. And this definition came from my first Alexander teacher mentor. His name is Jessica Wolf. She's based in New York City. And those of you who have taken my O.T. Pioneers introduction to pelvic floor therapy course know Jessica because Jessica allowed me to share for her an animation of breathing in my course. So this is her definition. And Esther and I talked about it, and she completely agrees with that. So I'm going to read it for you guys. The Alexander Technique is a method of self-care. It teaches you how to live more fully through your own mindfulness. It specifically addresses chronic overuse or everyday misuse. You learn how to move with ease and coordination. It uses mental props to help you identify habits. Doesn't it sound so O.T. helps you identify habits that may be interfering with the way you move through life and all the things that you do? Many of these efforts involve an over efforting that will contribute to chronic pain and mal coordination. It has a huge impact on our nervous system and our respiratory system because as we hold our breath and brace against stressors, the system starts to tighten. We can learn to become aware through our kinesthetic sense and as Jessica calls our inner story, through this method. Esther, welcome. Thank you so much for joining us. 

Esther Miltiades Pleasure to be here. It's been lovely, lovely speaking with you and exploring these things together. 

Lindsey Vestal I agree. 

Esther Miltiades I'm looking forward to this session. Excellent. 

Lindsey Vestal Excellent. All right. So, Esther, I'm going to jump in with my first question here, and that is you have worked you excuse me, your your mentor worked with hyper mobile clients. Right. And so some of these clients had IDs. Right. And a focus, a huge focus of the Alexander technique is letting go of excess tension in our bodies in order to move with greater ease and enable our bodies to really be more balanced. Very much like I shared with the definition and Jessica Jessica had. So I imagine, right that a lot of hyper mobile clients use tension to kind of keep it all together. Right. And so I'd love to hear how you describe working with these clients. And if it's helpful, you can share like a case study or how, however you want to take a take a stab at answering this. 

Esther Miltiades And it's a really good question because, yes, so much of what we do is about releasing tension. And if we do that with hyper mobile clients, there is a possibility of dislocation or supplication if we're not connecting them first. So my mentor was somebody that really pioneered the work that we do, particularly with hyper mobile people. And what she discovered was instead of first. During the release. We body map people get them to understand their joints and the way that they connect in to their body. And from that place of connection, we then offer them a sense of appropriate release. So we're connecting everything together, like, you know, realizing the connection between your hip and your pelvis and your back and your front and the way that your arms are connecting into your body and your legs are connecting into your torso. And then from there, we're offering building up someone's kinesthetic awareness and proprioception and then understanding how they can have more appropriate time. So, I mean, all hyper mobile people come to us with very different issues. Some might be very floppy and not have enough tone. Others are very rigid because they're holding themselves together. And so we're through the work that we do in the hands on work, in particular, allowing them to find somethings that's more appropriate, more sort of what's necessary rather than what's too much or not enough of the tone that they need in their body. But on top of that, you've also got the sense of balance and where they are in space and what their joints do and what might be a safe range of motion for these joints that they have. And yes, I've worked I, I specialize with working with children, so I've worked with children a lot as well as adults. And I've worked. I was when you first asked me this question, I thought of three particular case studies. And the first was a little boy. He was ten and incredibly hyper mobile and hospitalized a lot because of it. And we worked a lot with his fingers and the brain. And once we sort of built his general concept of what the technique was allowed, we really brainstormed and workshopped that. How would you use your fingers? What do you need to do to write? Can you sit well as you write? How much tension do you really need in your shoulder, your back, your elbow? Everything. So write. And can we make it flow more easily? So we spent a quite a few sessions working with writing or working with carrying a rucksack or, you know, brainstorming P.E. lessons where he was started damaging himself. And we were going, okay, so how can you do that? And to cover your body. So, yeah, they they saw and I'm sure that sounds very familiar, too. And I would say and then the two other people I, I worked with two women, one that was very, very rigid. And I would straight. And then with her it was about doing much, much less and bringing a sense of movement into her breath. We did quite a lot of breath work to try and get everything moving. And from a sense of connection, allowing her to let go a bit more, obviously with hyper motor people, they often lock out joints. And so it was sort of we do a lot of work with embracing balance, embracing a bit of wobble in the body, not always rigidly holding yourself. So we worked with that and then we brainstormed very practical things like she was a receptionist being able to stand for long periods without getting tired and looking after your joints within that. And then the last person that I can think of that was different, really different again, is my step daughter, who's very hyper mobile. And she was in her late teens and had been very sedentary. And because of that, the work that I tried to do with her initially was too much. She didn't have enough core stability to let go and actually remain upright. She found it exhausting. So I worked with her and a personal trainer, and we worked very slowly actually to sort of retrain her body because even the things like the lie down that you were saying that my the constructive rest doing that actually caused her huge pain because she was so used to being very contorted and wrapped up and tight that lengthening her spine caused her problems. So we had to really work quite slowly on that. But yeah, so very different. One, one sort of, you know, problem or one different type of body thing, but such a spectrum of way people present with it and a huge range of solutions that we need to think through. So yeah. 

Lindsey Vestal I have to say so many things about what you said stood out to me. Number one, you know, the individualization of care, the fact that your perspective and your training really comes to the client where they are. So instead of you coming in with a prescribed notion of, okay, this person has hypermobility where I'm going to expect to see these things, you're very open to what's in front of you and to pivoting, right? So you might be seeing seeing a sloppiness, you might be seeing a rigidity and you're going to tailor the session. And I think that client centered care model is exactly the way all of us should be, should be treating our clients. The other things that you said that really stuck out were just how much you work with the functional tasks that the person needs. So if it's a child who has, you know, a bookbag that they really need to know how to carry and keep their spine lengthened. Right. With the child that you mentioned that you're working on handwriting with to the receptionist, right. Who needed this ability to stand and kind of keep that support all day long. You know, you're weaving in what's relevant. And what, as we say, is what is ADLs activities of daily living to help them rehabilitate. So you're not giving them mindless exercises like a thousand clamshells, right. Their time and place. But our perspective as as teens and specifically as pelvic floor therapists are a client centered approach, really meeting them where they are to, you know, weaving in their tasks of meaningful behaviors that are going to make it so much more interesting and so much more relevant. And then the last thing I want to say, because everything you said was so inspiring is, you know, the collaboration that with your stepdaughter that you worked with the personal. 

Lindsey Vestal Trainer because. 

Lindsey Vestal There's so much of the work that we do that requires collaboration. And I'm constantly talking with my students about how, you know, we we don't have all the answers, nor should we put that burden on ourselves. Right? So this. 

Esther Miltiades Exactly. 

Lindsey Vestal Collaborate and to see the full picture and to have those messages be carried over and have that sort of support system talk with each other so that that that student and ultimately is getting that full rounded perspective is like is is brilliant. 

Esther Miltiades And yeah absolutely And I think it's so I mean for one if you're trying to teach someone something because then once they've got the foundation work and they understand the principles you're working with, it has to mean something to them and you have to make it relevant. Otherwise, what's the point of learning it? You're just learning for learning sake. You know, if you find something they love or something that has meaning, they're far more likely to want to utilize it and carry on and build it into their daily routine. So yeah, yeah, definitely. That's awesome. 

Lindsey Vestal That's awesome. So you don't mind I want to talk a little bit about our pelvic floor clients now because that was one of the things that I think you and I have been able to geek out before in the past about, which is, you know, many of our pelvic floor clients are overactive, right? So we call this like hypertonic in their pelvic floors. So, so much of what you are sharing, we can really relate to whether, you know, we have someone who's coming in with very. And so that would be the more the more rigid client, right? The client who's kind of motion is, is more in a stuck to limited range. The coordination is and and so could you would you mind talking through like maybe a 5 or 10 minute walk through of a session with a hyper hyper mobile client so we can get a like a real tangible idea? Because I know a lot of people I speak with are as much as Jessica's definition was eloquent and it was probably the closest thing I've heard that can help us understand the Alexander technique. It's still can feel a little esoteric for people who don't haven't experienced it. And it's the same way. I mean, even though we're talking about activities, people are like, Yeah, but what do you guys do? Like, what's the session look like? So would you mind just kind of like walking us through like even just a quick example of what the work would look like that you do with a client? 

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Esther Miltiades Yeah. I'm obviously with a client. It varies depending on how far through the Alexander journey they are. You know, whether it's less than one, less than five, less than ten. So that would vary a lot. But the big thing that we do is that we're working with the whole self mind and body, and often we're working indirectly with something. So sometimes we would work and think, well, yes, I need to address the pelvic floor directly and make someone aware that they're just holding up everything. Or we might think, well, by relaxing and letting go of your shoulders and mapping how our arms join on to our body and getting someone breathing better and thinking about their legs being softer and not locking out their knees. Indirectly, that will allow the pelvic floor to soften as well, because everything's connected. And if we're breathing well and we're standing with ease and we're not looking out joints, then we're likely to have a softening in the pelvic area and around that hip area and lower tunnels. So that that's one thing. And within activity, I might get someone just to so someone standing say notice your feet on the floor. Notice where the balance is on your feet. Can you notice if you're at the front of your feet or the back of your feet or right or left? And then I might move up and think, are you locking in your ankles? And then do some exercises around letting it be a balance standing rather than this rigid holding. And then check in with people's knees and hips in the same way. And then obviously at the other end of the torso, we've got the way that your head balances on to your spine at the top. So we'd certainly map that and then have play around with that. But then the big thing that I love, I have three questions I like to ask, and they're just really useful questions. Are you seeing are you breathing and are you balancing? I will have to explain. That's three good questions. Am I seeing avoid letting the peripheral vision and my letting my sort of vision be a bit more open and easy and interested, which relaxes my body? And then am I breathing? Am I allowing natural breathing? So am I softening in my belly? Am I letting my ribs move? Do I understand that my breathing can be fairly easy and it might change its rhythm and that my pelvic floor might be allowing that breath to happen, as well as the diaphragm as well as the abdominal muscles, etcetera. And balancing is a sense of our mind allowing my body to be in balance. Therefore, I'm not locking any of my joints up and I'm allowing the sense of movement and rebalance and rebalance to happen through the body. So I'll quite often teach by asking questions like that and getting people to notice their body and their response to those questions, and then use them as ways of discussing things. And then obviously before the pandemic, I'd have my hands on them and we'd be working together. And that touch allows someone to get a sense of where they are in space, where they're balanced and where they're tight and where they can soften and things like that. So it's yeah, it's complex thing, isn't it? Alexander? So we're challenging and changing the way people think so that they can change the way that they move or use their bodies. And then bringing all these different tools of body awareness and breath and everything to something. So we never just work on one body part. It's always brought back to the whole. Does that makes sense? 

Lindsey Vestal Yes. Yes. Everything you said resonates so much with not only why I love the Alexander technique, but I think sort of the way the way that I practice as as a therapist. So that was that was so beautifully said. And thank you for for walking us through. And I understand how hard it is to describe a session. And I think that's because, as I know, you work, it's so individualized. And so even hypothetically speaking about it can be a challenge. So thank you. Thank you for doing that. You did an amazing job. And it does help illustrate for us a little bit more. I'd love to segway now into what you just started talking about, which is sort of like the hands on approach and how we transition because of the pandemic. So, Esther, as you've said, Alexander technique is a very hands on approach, right? As as is the work we traditionally do in public health. And so I understand you've taken some courses pretty early on in the pandemic, you smart, smart lady, to prepare. 

Esther Miltiades You. 

Lindsey Vestal To prepare your mind and sort of like how you could better transition to the online space. Right. Can you tell us a few practical things that you learned from your studies that you have found helpful in doing that? 

Esther Miltiades Yes. Gosh, there's so many of them, isn't there? I mean, there's the technical stuff of don't wear really baggy clothes because no one can see you if you're trying to demonstrate something and the right lighting and the right space because I'm demonstrating and being able to see someone, the whole of themselves or just sitting or all those sorts of things, and then thinking about, well, if I can't put my hands on someone, how am I going to give them a similar experience of the work? And for me, a lot of the course work that I did sort of confirmed that I already had the skills. I just had to think differently about them. And especially because I do teach a lot of group work and obviously when I'm teaching groups, then there isn't as much hands on, but it's much more experimental. So that's the thing about someone coming to you for a hands on lesson is that almost the teacher is giving them the experience that they're using their hands, they're giving them experience of freedom of movement, freedom in standing. But the client might get the impression that you're doing it for them. And of course, teaching online. It's really clear that the client is giving themselves the experience of different ways of moving and different ways of thinking. And so, yeah, for me, it was it was that familiarity of group work where you go, Well, let's experiment. What happens if I think this way? What happens if I stop and think differently and body map and move in a different way and on all offered different little games and activities and experiences. And the big thing for me is just that constant conversation, that back and forth that you need to have because you're wanting feedback. What do you notice about this? What if you think that? What do you notice? What was different between this time and last time? So that people are really getting curious about their body in the way that they're thinking. So they notice when something's easier or something feels more coordinated and I can observe them and give them my feedback too. But what's been really useful about it that I think has been more more interesting than in person is that they're owning the learning. They're making their own discoveries because you're not there. You're not even being seen to be doing something for them. They're going, yeah, I noticed that when I did this, this happened and that what made it easier or yeah, when I move my arm in that way I stay balanced. Or it was easier to pick up that book from the floor or something. So I think it makes them really much more independent learners and they're getting. A real sense of ownership and empowerment, which they do with the Alexandria tax anyway. But there's less. Less sense of therapeutic touch going on. So it's different. So yeah, for me, it's this particular phrases that I'm finding I'm using a lot more. Does that make sense? Is it very good? Does that make sense to you? Because it's my responsibility as a teacher to find a way of talking to somebody that they understand, not their responsibility to understand it. So it's me like checking in with them. What language do they use? What are they interested in? What can I hang these things on? And then change the way I explain things and have that repertoire of 101 explanations for the same thing which I can use. Yeah. And also the other thing that we've been exploring a lot in work shares with other Alexandria teachers, it's like, Well, we can't touch them, but they can touch themselves. They've got their own hands to bring awareness to their body. And actually we've been doing that a lot and really getting them, gosh, yes, that's my head too much where it is and that's where my neck balances my head balance is on the top of my neck. And and so we we're creating this sort of different language of soft touch to offer that. Real experience of their own bodies. It's amazing that we don't really do that more often, isn't it? That's really, really useful. So I think although the quality of touch is different, but we can talk about that too, with a client. Like there's different ways of touching, poking or soft hands or what, what's, how do you like that contacts work? What gets more information to you? So all that sort of things. Yeah. 

Lindsey Vestal That's amazing. And you know, in terms of the public health world, we've had such a transition because so much of our work is sort of assessing are they overactive or are they underactive in their mood or and so I actually developed a course called In their Hands that basically walks therapists through how to teach a client to do their own self assessments because really well, and just like you guys are so much about education. Right. And empowering and not doing too, but collaborating with. And so I think that this has really helped us step into our own that much more. And it sounds the same for your practice in terms of like, well, gosh, this is stuff we always believed in and always felt like we brought into sessions, but we've had to step up our game, haven't we? And we learned how much more we can do it. And frankly, I'm really looking forward to when we can have that hybrid model again where we are maybe in-person, right? But we're infusing so much of what we learned this past year, how much more we can turn over to the client, whether it's when we're with them in-person or between sessions or whatever it may be, or maybe like an ideal situation would be one session person, one session online once, however. But it's gotten this it's gotten us to think really creativity, creative creatively around how we could, you know, just take all this knowledge we've learned this past year and make it that much better. 

Esther Miltiades Yeah, I'd agree. A lot of Alex Jones of teachers we've been talking about sense of not losing the online and and having that mixture of in-person and online because of the benefits of someone always kickstarting that, that sense of, yes, I'm empowering myself to do that because I'm on my own and I'm learning this. And another Alexander teacher that I was talking to started sort of really thinking of self as a facilitator rather than a teacher. It's like you're facilitating their learning. And I just thought, well, that's a really, really nice way of thinking about it. And it feels more like that online really, because you're, you're really there sort of trying to figure out how they they can teach themselves, but you're the guide rather than in person. 

Lindsey Vestal All right. So you talked a little bit, Esther, about having many ways to say to say something, right? So verbalizing concepts that can seem really hard to reach or really just since Carrick is such an important work part of working virtually, how have you been able to really kind of like beef up your repertoire around being able to explain different concepts to clients so that they land? Well. 

Esther Miltiades Weirdly, I think the fact that I have taught children very, very young children. So I worked in the kindergarten primary age children up to ten mostly means that I've really had to examine my language and use very, very everyday, simple language, which has then helped me with adults as well. And the other thing that I was really thinking of, like what's really helped me is that I always ask clients what they're interested in, what their hobbies are, what they like to do, you know, all their sort of backgrounds, and then try and use language and terms and, you know, crossovers that make sense. So if someone's meditated before then, there's a sort of similarity in language between Alexander technique and meditation or someone really enjoys doing yoga, well, then I can relate something to that. So yeah, that's, that's how I tend to do. I think it's really been working with kids has also given me a sense of play and fun and willing to be a bit silly and get things wrong and, you know, be very experimental. So when you've got that sort of you meet people where they are, have fun. If it goes wrong and I don't make sense to you, then I'm quite happy. I have several other goals I keep playing around and you just, you know, it's part of the process. So yes, it's the two things. It's really be mind. Feel that you're speaking the person's language, understanding that the language they're using with you and reflecting it back to them and then having these millions one ways connecting with very different people. I mean, as well as working with kids, I've worked with different types of people like older adults or musicians or sports people or meditators. So they all have different languages they speak, don't they, Because they're all interested in different things and different ages and stuff like that. So yeah, you gradually build up that repertoire, don't you? It's like having a big toolbox full of different things that you use on different occasions, so keeps. 

Lindsey Vestal Us on our feet from a creativity perspective, doesn't it? 

Esther Miltiades I absolutely love that part of it. I just, you know, is brilliant. Like, how am I going to make this accessible to this one? What do they like? Yes, let's go for it. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, definitely. 

Lindsey Vestal Well, it's it's part of the secret sauce that I think that keeps us interested in our careers long term. Because, you know, if I walked into a session and every single client was, was a carbon copy of each other, I would very quickly get bored of that work. So I yeah, I love that. I love that. I love that part of our work as well. 

Esther Miltiades Yeah, I've always loved that. I think that before as an Alexandria teacher, I was a personal trainer and the type of personal training I really enjoyed was the sort of specialist populations that was sort of anti and post-natal or older adult or rehab where you have to really problem solve and think very specifically about the person. So I think that then comes through to this work where you're really meeting someone where they are and really problem solving and finding solutions. And and part of that is the language that you use. Yeah, yeah, yeah. 

Lindsey Vestal So speaking of, you know, working, working in the school environment and we're just going to kind of extrapolate that idea a little bit and ask you this next question, which is, you know, I think many of our clients might come to the work with us thinking in a very black and white way, you know, very like, right, wrong, you know, true false, false type thing. And maybe, maybe people are surprised that Alexander Technique is a little bit more gray and more of a personal, personal experience, as you demonstrated in in our last question, how do you help clients sort of nudge out of that very traditional school approach when they start working with you? 

Esther Miltiades I think partly that's about language that I use that I'm very careful about, not not describing things as bad and good wrong. All right. There you know, different types of the way that we do things or they're just different habits and one might be easier than another or more efficient than the other, but definitely not wrong and right and bad and good. Try and figure out, you know, if it gets people that are very, very self-critical about wanting to get something right and being a good student, then they're sort of gently challenging that and going, well, there is there's actually no wrong answer to this because so much of what we're doing is asking someone to explore their experience of something. So if I'm asking you for your experience of a particular activity, they'll sort of go, I notice this is not right. It's like, you can't get it wrong. It's your experience. I want to know what your experience is because then that gives me feedback on what you need to do next. So it's perfect, that language and self-compassion and allowing someone to be compassionate for where they are. If they've been in pain, then they might be quite critical of their own bodies or their bodies have let them down and they might, you know, admonish themselves or saying, I should have known better and all that. So there's lots of talk around that as well. That sense of we can only do, you know, habits we've built up through a sense of protecting ourselves and they just might not be useful anymore. And we need to look again at having some choice over how we do things. There's lots of talk around that. I just love the. 

Lindsey Vestal Alexander Take me. Esther, Would you please share some of your viewpoints about the pelvic floor through the Alexander Technique lens? 

Esther Miltiades Gosh. Okay. Tell me a bit more. What? What? Say a bit more. What you mean. 

Lindsey Vestal So, you know, earlier when we were talking, you said something really interesting. You were talking about how, like if you can help a client to release their knees. Right. A release their knees away from their pelvis, which I actually did a line on earlier with you today. And you mentioned that. So I'm feeling that in my body as I was mentioning it, you know, so so while, you know, your quote unquote specialty isn't necessarily the pelvic floor, you absolutely understand even when you and I first start. To talking about this, about how the pelvic floor could be overactive and how that tension or that rigidity could give somebody the feeling that they're keeping it together. Right. That their core is in and things are really supportive when actually. Right. It's not allowing for some of that like perturbation or some of that sort of like stepping off a curb and how our body needs to be buoyant and responsive to some changes. And so I, I know that we see so much overlap, you and I, in that area, that that I would love to always talk with you about this. And I'm sure since we're in a group of people who also specialize in this just either maybe how how you have found with working with your population how the pelvic floor has factored in, whether tension or not or maybe if that if that question if it maybe this one resonates more like how you go about helping someone to feel how their pelvic floor might be involved by cueing them through some of the other parts of their body to be impacted by that pelvic floor tension? 

Esther Miltiades I think one of the things that I would obviously I don't always talk about the pelvic floor on its own, but something that I often talk about in sitting, for example. So sitting on a stool where you're self-supporting and you're balancing your torso, thinking about how we do that. And so often we do that by sucking everything up and using pelvic abdominal glutes, the whole lot, to try and remain upright. And then we wonder why we get so exhausted and collapse down into a slump. So one of the things that we play with a lot is body mapping, the sitting bones, Ishmael, tuberous teeth, whatever you want to call them, the little rockers that we have and really getting a sense of then letting go and almost we talk about them letting go into the stool and spreading out. So that's a really sort of descriptive imagery that we're talking about, which is not necessarily anatomical. But while we're talking about that, the things that are happening are less, you know, muscular activation in the glutes and all around those lower abdominals and probably in the pelvic floor as well. And you add into that the sense of our arms connecting in through our collarbones and through the shoulder blades of the back, and we don't have to hold ourselves up. You know, lots of people are holding themselves up through their shoulders and getting them a sense that they can just let their collarbones rest on their rib cage and that their lovely spine is lengthening up. And it's very responsive and it's springy and it's balancing their head. So they're getting a sense that those external muscles which are there for movement don't need to be postural. And part of that is the pelvic floor that the pelvic floor doesn't need to be sucked up in in constantly to hold ourselves up. So it's that sort of indirect work, that sense of letting go, allowing the structure to support itself, let go, think about the nice spine lengthening up. And then of course, you got that breath. And if we're really allowing and paying attention to the breasts and thinking about the ribs and the tummy being easy and then noticing right down into the pelvis, right down into the pelvic floor, thinking of like, I have like this thought of a hammock from front to back, that being part of the responsiveness with the diaphragm for breath that people just begin to let go. Through my own sort of self. Well, I system meditate. It's one thing about it. Notice that if I am sitting and planning and getting slightly stressed, then I have pelvic floor. I would never think as like suck it up. And then then I can think, I don't need to do that anymore. I can let go. And then I notice the breath is easier. Everything feels more relaxed. It's so much nicer. And so it's something that I do a lot in lying down because lying down, people don't feel that they need to support themselves. So sometimes in sitting when I do that work, someone might not trust that I can let go. Whereas lying down in some messy pine, we can map all this stuff and really think about letting go in the tummy muscles and that can go in the pelvic floor and they don't need it for support because they're lying down and supported and they get used to that sense of all this is what this is like because people have to find it. Don't They feel very, very tense all the time. You might not notice that you are tense. And so it's beginning to understand that you have tension and then there's a release and you can go between the two things you know, there is both available to you rather than just one thing. So lying down is important because you got that sense that you don't need to see for yourself, don't need postural tone. You can really just let go and then you can might be able to translate to, well, how little do I really need to do in sitting or standing sort of that efficiency is. And that's like, how easy can I make this? 

Lindsey Vestal And it's so interesting because you know so much about about our worlds is about how much more can we do, how much more can we get done? There's this hyper sense of ambitious ness and it's almost like if we don't have a question, how are you? And if you don't say, I'm busy, you almost feel guilty, right? 

Esther Miltiades Yes. 

Lindsey Vestal So beautiful that the Alexander Technique actually encourages doing less and that doing less can make you more efficient and can make you actually accomplish more, which I don't know. I think probably maybe it's been counterintuitive for a long time, but I can't help but relate it to, you know, our our our culture now and just much the for me makes us feel feel worthy and accomplishing. 

Esther Miltiades And I think that's how I have to sell these things. So if I'm working with somebody that's into their sports and you're telling them to do less and they've been told for years and years and years that they need to work their core and they need to do this to do this. And it's that. Well, okay, what about efficiency? Yes. What I really need to do these things to stand or do I need them just available to me when I do something like pick up something heavy so I need to brace constantly will come. I just be easier in my body and I sort of relate it to sort of dancers or movement people that work over long periods of time. Like they're not going to be tensing everything all the time. They'd be over in about two seconds, wouldn't you? Just can keep that going. It's about efficiency of action and muscle use and everything, really. That's be easier. This is why I love it because it's just like must be easy on ourselves and the way where we could do this nice and easily, where it's not, you know, a huge wear and tear on the body and that we can just. Yeah, just keep it moving and forever. 

Lindsey Vestal Esther, I'm so grateful for your time. Thank you for sharing your wisdom with us and your expertise. And I always learn so much. So I'm grateful for your time now. 

Esther Miltiades It's been a pleasure. It's been really nice to speak some some people that aren't Alexander's teachers, but I have that lovely overlap between what we do. So I hope I hope it's been of use. 

Lindsey Vestal I'm sure it was. I thank you again for your time. 

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