How OTs Can Achieve Financial Independence & Career Flexibility

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Learn more about my guest
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/doug.vestal.5

Website: https://www.freedomofpractice.com/

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Transcript

Lindsey Vestal:
New and seasoned OTs are finding their calling in pelvic health. After all, what's more ADL than sex, peeing, and poop? But here's the question. What does it take to become a successful, fulfilled, and thriving OT in pelvic health? How do you go from beginner to seasoned and everything in between? Those are the questions, and this podcast will give you the answers.

 We are inspired OTs. We are out-of-the-box OTs. We are Pelvic Health OTs.

 I'm your host, Lindsay Vestal, and welcome to the OTs in Pelvic Health Podcast. My guest today is Doug Vestal, who helps OTs attain occupational choice and freedom by starting private pay practices, and he's been my husband for the last two decades. He helped me co-found the Functional Pelvis in New York City and has over 10 years experience managing OT private practices and has helped hundreds of OTs start their own.

 Before working with OTs, he spent 15 years in senior management on Wall Street, including the global head of counterparty credit risk at a major investment bank. Doug loves combining his business acumen, passion for entrepreneurship, and his deep knowledge of OTs to help them find their treatment, time, and money freedom on their own terms. He has a master's in financial math and a Ph.D. in applied probability. Now, Doug has recently published the first and only personal finance book meant for our profession. In fact, it's called Financial Freedom for OTs. This book is causing waves. It is actually number one in two categories, occupational therapy and starting a business. I will include the links for how you can pick up the book in the show notes. I am so excited for you to hear our conversation today.

Doug, welcome to the OTs for Pelvic Health Podcast. I was just reviewing my old episodes, and it looks like this is the third time that you've been a guest. I'm so excited to welcome you again.

 Doug Vestal:
I'm so happy to be here, Lindsay. 

Lindsey Vestal:
I don't think I've had a three-time returning guest, so this is kind of cool. It does help that you're my husband. 

Doug Vestal:
It does help we live together. 

Lindsey Vestal:
It's super easy. No scheduling conflicts. We can just get right to it. Anyway, thanks for humoring me and being on here. I am dying to ask you because your book, Financial Freedom for OTs, has been a bestseller in two categories now for weeks, which, by the way, congratulations. Thank you so much for advocating for our profession. We talk so much about advocating within our own profession, but I have to tell you, I think there's something really special that happens when someone outside of our profession sees us, recognizes us for what we are and what we do, sees it so clearly. I guess 20 years of marriage will do that, but I think it's a huge step, and I just want to thank you so much for all the hard work and time that you put into this book.

 Doug Vestal:
Oh, yeah, absolutely. I mean, you get to see firsthand all the hard work and late nights and trips that I took to actually be able to write this book because it was about an 18-month endeavor to write a 250-page book on personal finance for OTs, and I'm just so happy that now it's out in the world, and the reception it's receiving, you mentioned it's become a bestseller in the occupational therapy category, and the reception has just been amazing, so I'm thrilled to be talking with you about it today.

Lindsey Vestal:
Awesome, awesome.
So in the book, you really show how your own money story really shaped your financial philosophy, and I really do think that a lot of OTs might assume that someone with your background in finance, your years on Wall Street, really had it all figured out. What limiting beliefs did you personally have to overcome in order to build wealth, and how do you think OTs can start rewriting their own money stories? 

Doug Vestal:
Yeah, it's such an excellent question, and I would rewind the clock a little bit. My parents got divorced when I was very young. I was about seven, and about every three years, I would go from living with my dad to living with my mom, and my mom and stepfather were both public school teachers, right? So she taught seventh grade, and he was a guidance counselor, and then on my dad's side, he worked in a pharmaceutical company, and I was living with him at age 17. I was going to be graduating from high school, going to college, and I remember distinctly, we lived in a nice neighborhood. It wasn't the fanciest house. He drove a new car, but we would go out to restaurants, and the credit card would get declined, and it was super embarrassing. The second credit card would get declined, the third one. Finally, the fourth credit card would go through. I remember when we would be eating dinner at home, if the phone rang, he wouldn't answer it because it would be like a debt collector, and I just couldn't figure out this person who I looked up to, who I thought had it all figured out, why he was so bad with money, and then eventually one day, he sat me down, and I was about to go away to college. It was in the fall, and he said, you know that money that I told you I had been saving for your college tuition? Well, actually, I spent all of it, and that changed things dramatically for me because I was about to enroll in an out-of-state school. That was my dream school, but I was looking at the tuition, knowing that I had to take out student loans now, and I said, well, that's not going to be possible, so I stayed at an in-state school, which coincidentally is where we ended up meeting.

 Lindsey Vestal:
I was going to say. 

Doug Vestal:
It was very fortuitous. It worked out. It worked out the way that it did, and so that was my experience on my dad's side, and then on my mom's side, there was a real sort of avoidance of money, and it was all the classical stuff of schoolteachers don't make a lot of money, and so it was very much like an us-versus-them mentality. The rich are really evil. Anybody who makes more than a certain amount of money is just taking advantage of people, and so I saw this dichotomy where my dad thought money was the answer to all of his problems, and on my mom's side, they had the perception that money was the cause of all problems, and I knew there had to be something in between because it just didn't. It felt so polarizing in my life experience, and my dad ended up having to take a job out of state, so I ended up actually going to live with my grandparents and his parents, and since the earliest age I remember, my grandma was always in a wheelchair because she had very severe debilitating rheumatoid arthritis, and so my granddad actually ended up having to retire early from his career to become her full-time caregiver, and so every morning, he would wake up. He would lift her out of her bed using a Hoyer lift into the wheelchair. He would do her hair. He would get her dressed. He would help her brush her teeth. He would take care of all of her toileting, and then he would wheel her out to the living room where they would watch news together, their favorite shows. He would be cooking her favorite recipes, and through all of this, I got to see the reason why he was able to do this, the reason why he was able to care for the love of his life who could not care for herself was he had a little bit of financial security. He was very good with his money. He grew up in the Great Depression, so he was always very frugal, and I started to look at it as like, wow, like money in of itself is not bad. It's your relationship to money. It's what you're doing with the money, and you can either do it for good or you can use it for bad, and for my granddad, you know, many times my grandmom's medical care was so complex. Medicare was denying lots and lots of claims, and so he actually had to take them to court multiple times to advocate for her, and the reason why he had that ability, that flexibility, and that choice was because he had built a little bit of financial security, and so that for me really said, okay, like there is a way to be at peace with money and to use it for good, but you have to be a good steward with it. You have to learn how to earn it. You have to learn how to save it. You have to learn how to invest it because for me, like I learned so much from him. Funny story, you'll remember this, but one day, you know, I went over to take care of my grandmom because my granddad was in the hospital, and so I was the one having to do all of her daily activities and everything, and you and I had just started dating, and I remember you told me later that you saw me brushing my grandmom's hair, and you thought to yourself, well, that's going to be the man that I marry, and then like a few years later, like my granddad was the best man at our wedding, and then here we are today, and so I think, you know, it's really key for OTs and everyone to start to write down their associations with money because we all have limiting beliefs. Many times, they're subconscious, and we're unaware of it, but the first step is to really look at all of the memories that you have around money. Sorry, the memories that you have in your life and go, what role did money play in this? You know, did it show up as a positive force? Did it show up as a negative force? Because we get conditioned from a very young age to have certain associations with money through the interactions we have with our parents, through our friends, through our friends' parents, and many times as adults, those stories don't really serve us anymore.They actually just serve to keep us stuck. 

Lindsey Vestal:
Well, I'm not at all surprised that you married an occupational therapist. It sounds like you kind of knew the role early on in some of those experiences that you shared with your grandfather. Yeah, I absolutely do remember that moment crystal clear. You know, another big part of this is that, you know, OTs and public health, let's face it, we are natural givers, right, and we, I think, feel guilty sometimes focusing on money, and I know it has a lot to do with those scripts and those stories that you just shared with us, but the thing is, when I reread your book, I really saw that it made a pretty bold claim, and that claim is that wealth actually allows us to make a bigger impact. Can you break down why financial independence isn't just about personal freedom, but also about helping more people? 

Doug Vestal:
Yeah, I have a quote in the book from the famous comedian Chris Rock, and I'll paraphrase it because I don't remember exactly, but it's basically like wealth isn't about having a lot of money. Wealth is about having a lot of options, and those options include helping other people because at the end of the day, like just being a little bit black and white, things take time and things take money, right? Like I meet so many OTs that want to have an amazing impact, but they are stuck with debilitating student loans, right? They would have chosen a different work setting. They would have chosen maybe a different city to live in. They would have wanted to be closer to their parents, but they have this fixed constraint, which is their monthly bills and their obligations that make them make certain decisions, and I'm not saying it's good or bad, right? But at the end of the day, we all have to make sure that we're putting food on the table, that we're paying our rent or our mortgage, and that we are keeping up with the student loan payments, and when you eliminate a lot of those payments and when you create some financial freedom and flexibility for you, it enables you to either give back in your time, because you can do pro bono work, you can volunteer, you can take on a project that allows you to impact multiple people at the same time, or it allows you to donate to causes that are really meaningful to you, you know? And so everything takes the time and resources, and I work with so many OTs that might not have the resources, but have the desire to make an impact, and so for me, pursuing financial freedom and developing a little bit of financial security is the thing that's going to prevent you from having burnout, right? Because let's be honest, if you are burned out, it's very hard for you to show up in any of your roles the way that you want to. You're not going to show up as a parent the way you want to. You're not going to show up as a spouse, a friend. You're not going to show up in your own OT sessions the way that you want to. You know, we have to address the elephant in the room, which is that money stress is incredibly prevalent. You know, 73% of Americans list money stress as the number one stressor in their life, more so than any other category. The vast majority of divorces in America happen around fights around money, more so than it fights around any other things. So money is a stressful topic, right? It's creating a lot of friction, a lot of stress in our life, and we know what happens when we're stressed. We know what happens to the nervous system. We know what happens to your eating habits, to your sleep routines. We know what happens to, you know, your ability to be fully present, and so eliminating this as a huge source of risk in your life allows you to give back more to those meaningful relationships in your life. 

Lindsey Vestal:
I couldn't agree more, and I think the way you talk about that is so, it breaks it down in such an understandable way, and that is really what I felt reading your book time and time again. I really felt seen as an occupational therapist. I really felt like you get us, you know, and that's so refreshing. So we just appreciate it so much, and also just so evident in this conversation today. And actually aligned with that is this idea that money, and you refer to it like this in the book, money is an invisible ADL, right? And just like pelvic health, it literally affects everything, yet no one talks about it, right? And so I'm curious as to what you think, how does shifting our mindset around money create real change in OT's life, both in our careers and in our own personal freedom? 

Doug Vestal:
Yeah, so this was really interesting because managing money is listed as an IADL in the OT practice framework, right? So it is there, but yet you talk to any OT, and almost no one got the basics of financial education and financial literacy in their OT program, you know? But yet it's written into the OT practice framework, and so we have OTs that are graduating with six figures of student loan debt. You know, I've talked to students whose student loan debt ranges from $130,000 to $300,000 plus, right? And there's, aside from this book, there's been no tools and resources to help them navigate that. And if they can't navigate that in their own personal life, it's going to be very difficult for them to navigate that with their clients' lives. And so much of it is around the mindset, you know? Like the mindset is the roots of the tree, right? So you might see a really healthy tree and the fruits on the tree, but what's most important is what you don't see, which is the roots, right? If we want to grow really vibrant and have thriving careers, we have to work on the roots, and those roots are our mindset when it comes to money. And so we have to flip the script that money isn't bad, money isn't evil. It is literally just a tool, and it is a tool that you are given the options to do what you wish with. And just like any tool, it can be used for good or it could be used for bad.I personally think OTs are going to use it for good, and it doesn't require you to overly focus on money, but it requires you being a good steward of the money that you're already making. Because the fact of the matter is, if you look at any of the studies of people who become wealthy in our country, one of the top five professions is a teacher. And we know, unfortunately, teachers do not make a lot of money. So the idea that you have to earn a lot of money to save a lot of money or invest a lot of money is just false. We have demonstrable proof. What is really most important is how you're living relative to your income. And you have to set aside money every single month to start paying your future self first and save and invest it. This is something that happens over decades. It doesn't happen just overnight. And the first mindset shift is that it's actually achievable for you. If you save and invest $500 a month for 30 years in a Roth IRA, you are pretty much guaranteed to become a millionaire. It is something that is done slowly over time. And so the first step is to know that it's actually achievable for yourself. It's not achievable next week. There's no get-rich-quick schemes or anything. It's really time and investing for the long term. But that's the number one thing is knowing that it's actually achievable for yourself. And the other thing I would say is that I think a lot of what we experience, a lot of the discussions that I have with OTs around money, I will hear a very common refrain, which is that I can't save. I can't budget. I can't, you know, get a salary increase. I can't just fill in the blank. And I would politely challenge everyone, that is avoidance talk, right? That is avoidance language of I can't do this. And oftentimes that is a result of money trauma that we've experienced, where we just want to close our eyes, not look at our bank accounts, not take the time to understand all of the different student loans that we have, not understand where our money is going every single month. But the fact is that it's all within our control, right? And once we become aware of it, it becomes a lot more empowering to actually sit down and start doing it. 

Lindsey Vestal:
That is so true. And I will say in terms of like the fact that personal finance is in our practice framework, is that not only have I heard from OTs who have read this book that it obviously like changed their lives. I know many people are, even married to non-OTs, are sitting down and using your book to have concrete conversations, to get on the same page, to recognize, wait, these are, this is an important conversation that can literally change our trajectory, change our family's trajectory. So those have been really refreshing. But some of my favorite stories are the ones where they're taking your book and now can actually, when their own client says, look, one of my occupations, like one of my stressors, one of my things that's preventing me from making progress in pelvic health from a nervous system perspective, is my stress around money. That this book actually gives them tools to be able to address that in their sessions with their clients, which is, I think it's groundbreaking. I wish this could be something that OT programs had, even if it was an hour-long lecture. Heck, I wish it was something I got exposed to, we all got exposed to in middle school, in high school. Again, financial literacy is just not talked about. We're expected to know it's like pelvic health. It's happening behind closed doors. It's private. It's, you know, all of these things, sometimes shameful. And so it's these stories that are coming in from people reading your book are just awesome. So the other thing that you go into that I think has been really revolutionary is this idea of a freedom number, right? Which I really think everyone listening to this podcast today should sit down and calculate their freedom number. Can you walk us through this concept and explain why knowing this number literally changes everything? 

Doug Vestal:
Yeah. So one of the things I'm really happy about with the book is I provide really concrete, actionable exercises all throughout. Like this is meant to be a fun read. It's actually very quick to get through. And it is something that asks, you know, you to sit down and do some exercises along the way. And the very first exercise is in chapter one is this idea of a freedom number. And basically a freedom number is how much money you need to have saved and invested so that work becomes optional, not an obligation. Right. So that's why it's called your freedom number. At that point, if you reach that number, you could decide to keep working or you could decide to quit or you could decide to pivot into another occupation. Right. It's 100 percent up to you. And so the freedom number is the amount you need to have invested to fund the lifestyle of your dreams. And so the exercises is really simple. So I have tables in the book that breaks it all down. But basically, you start out explaining in paragraph form what your ideal week looks like. You know, what are you doing? Are you getting together for brunch with your friends? Are you going out to the movies? Do you have a personal trainer? Are you volunteering every Thursday and Friday at the dog rescue? Right. Like it is up to you to decide what that ideal life looks like. And then from there, we sort of reverse engineer it and we go, OK, well, how much money do we need to be spending on housing? How much money do we need to be spending on extracurricular activities like working out or your favorite hobbies? And you start to add all of that up. And I have an example in the book for someone who really loves to travel. And so they want to allocate like I think it's about twenty thousand dollars a year just to travel. Like that is their favorite occupation, what they want to do. And so you add up all of these numbers and that gets you to a number of your annual spend. How much money do you need to spend on an annual basis to have your ideal lifestyle? And then the trick is there's been all of these statistical research studies that says if you want to spend that amount of money each year, how much do you have to have saved? And you multiply that number by twenty five. So let's do like round numbers. If you need to spend one hundred thousand dollars a year, you multiply it by twenty five. That would be two point five million dollars that you need to have saved and invested. So for you to be able to spend one hundred thousand dollars a year and not run out of money, you know, you don't want to run out of money in your retirement. You need to have saved two point five million. And now that sounds like a lot of money, right? Like it sounds really, really super intimidating. But as I break down in the book, you're not actually saving two point five million dollars. You are investing a much smaller sum than that. And you are letting compound interest work its magic to get you to that two point five million dollar mark.

 Lindsey Vestal:
Do you mind explaining compound interest? I know I've heard you refer to it or quoting that it's the eighth wonder of the world. Who said that?

Doug Vestal:
Einstein. 

Lindsey Vestal:
Einstein. That compound interest is the eighth wonder of the world. Why is that? 

Doug Vestal:
Yes. So compound interest is when your money starts to make money. So you're earning interest on your money because you are invested in things like the stock market, which sounds really super intimidating. But I break down in the book like really simple ways to do it. It's available to all of us. You just need like ten bucks to open up an account. And it's not as complicated as people think it is. But compound interest is the thing that grows your money over time. So think about this. Right. Every every year that you are not saving and investing, you are actually losing money because of inflation. Right. Right. Think about what's happening to egg prices, milk prices. The prices of everything are rising. So your purchasing power is actually going down. Right.

Like ten dollars today does not go nearly as far as it went 15 years ago. So the only way to keep pace with inflation and to beat it is to invest your money. So you're looking at two or three percent of inflation a year. That's average. Whereas the historical returns for the stock market are 10 percent. Right. And so you're growing well above that. So the analogy I like to use or the example I like to use is, would you rather have a penny today that doubles every day for 30 days or would you rather have a million dollars today? And I give this to people and I talk about it in the book and I have a table. And most people's inclination is I'd rather have a million dollars today because a penny tomorrow that doubles is worth two cents.That's worth four cents. And so people think like it's going to be worth pennies. Right.In actuality, on day 30 for that penny doubling, it's going to be worth five point four million dollars. Five times the amount. Yeah. So it's much better to do that. And that's from the effect of compound interest, because your money starts making money. And then that small amount of money that made money makes money. It's like building a snowball. So that's the way that you reach financial independence. Going back to that example, you're not actually saving two point five million.    You're saving a small fraction of that and you're letting time in the stock market do everything else. The hard work, the heavy lifting is how it works. 

Lindsey Vestal:
OK.OK. Thank you. That makes a lot of sense. I think my last question for you is, you know, that you're thinking back to our history together, living in New York City. You know, we built a six figure OT practice while raising two young kids. Right. We started the business when the kids were what, like zero and two. Right. Like very, very early on at the time of this recording. They're now 13 and 11. And, you know, I think when I think about what we've done, it is something that a lot of a lot of my listeners dream about. Right.I mean, they've shared that with me. And I also think that the other part of that dream is telling themselves that it's impossible. So if there's an OT listening right now that feels stuck, they feel overwhelmed and just pretty much unsure as to where to start. So what's the the first small step they can take today to really start to shift their financial free financial future?

Doug Vestal:
Yeah. I think the number one thing that keeps most of us stuck is debt. So specifically student loans. And I tell the story in the book. But you and I paid off one hundred and fifty thousand dollars of your OT student loan debt from NYU in three years. And that is something that really lifted a lot of the financial stress that gave us the flexibility to make different choices.And, you know, most people will treat their student loan like rent payments, you know, something I'm just going to have forever. But the problem is that with the six figures worth of student loans is your monthly payments are so incredibly high that you can get stuck living paycheck to paycheck forever. And that is just a really vicious cycle. And getting out of your student loans requires a decent amount of sacrifice, which is, I think, why a lot of people don't do it. It is it is hard to do. So in you and I's case, Lindsay, you'll remember like the kids were super young, you know, like I was building my career.mWe were working on functional pelvis like you were going out hitting the pavement every single week. And we stepped back and said, every month we are just surviving, right? And with two kids that young, we made the really weird decision to move into a one bedroom apartment in Chinatown. And with two young kids and there was a temporary wall that was set up. So that was their quote unquote bedroom. And we lived there for almost four years. But in that time, we paid off all of your student loans.And the reason why we were able to do that was because we cut our monthly expenses in half. And so we realized that actually there was a more affordable place to live. It wouldn't have been many people's first choice. So some of this is you have to be a little bit weird. Like you're going to raise some eyebrows in your social circle because most people are not doing this. Most people are living month to month. And so for you to get and call yourself out of that hole, it does require some drastic actions. You know, like I had a student who after she got married, she she and her husband lived with his parents for two years. And they paid off one hundred and three thousand dollars of student loan debt. So it requires doing something like that, you know, whatever that version looks like for you. If you're just graduating, maybe it means you're renting and rather than buying. Maybe you have roommates versus, you know, going out on your own. Or if you do purchase something, you're buying a duplex and you're renting out one side. Or if you are older than it means and you have kids and you're in a more fixed situation, maybe you start picking up some clients on on a part time basis to throw that extra money at your student loans. But I think everyone put it this way. I've never spoken to anyone who regrets paying off their student debt faster because it frees up so much money every single month that they finally feel like they can breathe. And so that's my number one piece of advice, is to really treat that like the emergency it is, because you'll find that you have more occupational choice when suddenly not all of your monthly payments are going towards a degree you got 10 or 15 years ago.

Lindsey Vestal:
Yeah, and so what I hear when you say that is to be a little bit creative in your problem solving.

 Doug Vestal:
Yep. 

Lindsey Vestal:
Everybody's situation is unique. There is a one bedroom Chinatown apartment version for everybody that they can really kind of go, all right, what changes can I make here? And none of it is easy, right? So you're looking at either in our situation, three years of sacrifice or making that decision to be in alignment together to pay off those loans, or you're potentially looking at decades where you're sitting there going, Oh my gosh, like I can't go on that vacation this year. You know, I feel, you know, weird, you know, getting another car because you're still under the thumbprint of that massive student loan. And so for me, like, I'm kind of like a rip off a bandaid type of person. I don't want to sit there and feel that discomfort overall sustained period of time. I'd much rather take that, you know, take, take that sacrifice or get in alignment with you to be able to pay that stuff off, have it done in three years and move on, move on and recognizing that the longer we have to put towards compound interest, the more we're going to end up being financially free because that money continues to grow the, the earlier we, the younger we are, or the sooner we start, I should say, not necessarily younger that we are. Does that summarize it pretty well? 

 Doug Vestal:
No, you hit the nail on the head for that. And I think that's exactly, that's exactly it.
There is some version of it that makes sense for your life, you know, but it's useful to hear these stories because we get so inclined. I was just speaking to a student earlier today and he had $180,000 of student loan debt. He is going to be graduating next year. And his immediate inclination was to, he wanted to buy a new car and he wanted to buy a house, right? And, but he also wanted to work in acute care for the geriatric population, which we know has a lot of burnout in there. And so the sooner we can recognize these potential situations earlier, the better your financial situation is going to be. And so maybe you pay it off in four years, maybe you do it in six years, but I like what you said because it's not like it's easy now, right? It's not like it's easy now. It's already creating stress, probably conflict in your life. So keeping with the status quo can sometimes seem easy when it's actually more difficult in the long run. 

Lindsey Vestal:
Yeah. Yeah. That makes, that makes a lot of sense. Any, Oh, and I should say that, that, that story that really inspired, inspired this podcast episode was the fact that you were talking to that student earlier today. And, you know, I was so inspired by, by what you said and the conversations that ensued and his reaction to it, that I think it would be really fun to, to start a series here where that highlights some of those stories on the podcast, you know, maybe monthly, something like that, where you can really kind of come in and showcase these stories, these real time stories that you're hearing. And not only from the students you support in private pay MBA, but from the people who are just reading your financial freedom for OTs book. And I think that the more, you know, as humans, we learn through stories, right. And the more we can hear the creative problem solving, you know, the Chinatown apartment version of what your students are doing, I think we can all benefit from. So I hope that we can, we can do that series together. I think that would be like just a super fun way to, to inspire the community.

 Doug Vestal:
Yeah, absolutely. I love the idea of that series. We should absolutely do it.

 Lindsey Vestal:
Awesome. Thank you so much for being a guest today. This was a really fun conversation, a definite walk down memory lane, and I know it can, it's going to inspire so many listeners. So thank you, Doug. 

 Doug Vestal:
Yes. Thank you for having me.

 Lindsey Vestal:
Thanks for listening to another episode of OTs and pelvic health. If you haven't already hop onto Facebook and join my group OTs for pelvic health, where we have thousands of OTs at all stages of their pelvic health career journey. This is such an incredibly supportive community where I go live each and every week. If you love this episode, please take a screenshot of this episode on your phone and post it to IG Facebook, wherever you post your stuff and be sure to tag me and let me know why you like this episode. This will help me to create in the future. What you want to hear more of. Thanks again for listening to the OTs and pelvic health podcast.