Navigating Perinatal Loss; OTs Can Change The Story

• Learn more about Level 1 Functional Pelvic Health Practitioner program
• Get certified in pelvic health from the OT lens here
• Grab your free AOTA approved Pelvic Health CEU course here.

____________________________________________________________________________________________
Pelvic OTPs United - Lindsey's off-line interactive community for $39 a month!
Inside Pelvic OTPs United you'll find:​

• Weekly group mentoring calls with Lindsey. She's doing this exclusively inside this community. These aren't your boring old Zoom calls where she is a talking head. We interact, we coach, we learn from each other.
  ​
• Highly curated forums. The worst is when you post a question on FB just to have it drowned out with 10 other questions that follow it. So, she's got dedicated forums on different populations, different diagnosis, different topics (including business). Hop it, post your specific question, and get the expert advice you need.

More info here. Lindsey would love support you in this quiet corner off social media!

Transcript

Lindsey: Alita Wagner is a graduate of the Functional Pelvis Trauma-Informed Pelvic Health Certification. She's also an occupational therapist and owner of Mountain Mamas Pelvic Health in Monument, Colorado. She specializes in supporting pregnant and postpartum moms, athletes, and women navigating pelvic floor issues, helping them move from pain and dysfunction to strength and confidence.

With a passionate whole person approach, Alita empowers her clients with the knowledge and tools they need for lasting results. Alita is also a homeschooling mom of three, enjoys hiking, trail biking, yoga, reading, singing, and loves spending time outdoors with her husband and her kiddos exploring the beautiful Colorado mountains. 

Lindsey: New and seasoned OTs are finding their calling in pelvic health. After all, what's more ADL than sex, peeing, and poop? But here's the question, what does it take to become a successful, fulfilled, and thriving OT in pelvic health? How do you go from beginner to seasoned and everything in between? Those are the questions and this podcast will give you the answers. We are inspired OTs. We are out of the box OTs. We are Pelvic Health OTs. I'm your host, Lindsay Vestal, and welcome to the OTs in Pelvic Health podcast. 

Lindsey: Aleta, thank you so much for agreeing to come on the OTs for Pelvic Health podcast today. I have to tell you, when I learned about some of the grief and birth loss specific initiatives that you were doing in your community, I just felt so compelled to have this conversation with you today. I think it's such an underserved area. So I just want to just start off by thanking you so much for coming to talk to me today about such a important topic that I think as OTs, we can show up so beautifully.

Aleta: Yeah, thank you so much, Lindsay, for having me. This is kind of a dream of mine to be on your podcast. And I'm just so excited to be able to share my heart and have this chat with you.

Lindsey: Yeah, I have to say, I've gotten to know you really well through working through the Trauma-Informed Pelvic Health Certification, which is kind of also a place where this idea was born. And I think you're even able to find more of your focus because I know you're just passionate about so many things and you could do it all beautifully. And before we hit record today, you and I were talking about different communities that you do feel compelled to serve.

And you said a couple of things that really resonated with me. And I have a very strong feeling would resonate with our audience, which is number one, when you do, did chose to focus on helping pre and postnatal people, you said, I'm compelled for this now, but I also know that my heart can open up and serve other communities later. And I just think that's so beautiful when we're trying to find our niche is to know, to feel that it's okay to pick an area to really put our energy and resources in it and know that over our very long career, that can absolutely change.

Aleta: Oh 100%. 

Lindsey: I love that. 

Aleta: Thank you. Yeah, I feel like it's something that something might just even happen in your life that just goes, Oh, I kind of want to look at this area or a client that comes to you as a focus that you just didn't even think about, and then just kind of directs your heart in another direction. So I'm just thankful for the trauma course and how my heart just kind of was led to this perinatal loss area. So yeah.

Lindsey: I love that. Well, speaking of which, would you mind describing a little bit about what perinatal loss encompasses and potentially how it could show up differently for different families? 

Aleta: Yeah. So I see this as any kind of loss in a pregnancy or early infancy, and it could be through a miscarriage, no matter how early it is. It could be through stillbirth. It could be through complications with delivery. It could even be through an abortion, whether that was a chosen or kind of forced upon.

And then also thinking about infant loss kind of in that newborn period and infant loss through the first year of life even, but just really, I think that more that perinatal loss is really kind of through that maybe newborn period. And I find that this shows up differently with families who maybe that's a first child where they're experiencing this loss. Maybe it's multiple losses before another child is born.

Maybe it's a sibling that they already have some other children, and then this is a new sibling that has passed away. And so that can show up in different ways. So for families where it's their only baby, then it's kind of one of those things where you're looking at the identity of parents, right? As I was meant to be a mom and I carried this baby, and then all of a sudden I don't have this baby anymore.

And where does that mom go, right? Where does mom go? Or dad, right? I don't want to skip the dads in here too, because they're both equally as important. And then you have siblings who might be grieving as well, just not really knowing what to do with that, or not really understanding, what does this mean that we're not having a baby? Mom was pregnant, and now what? So it's kind of one of those things where I treat the moms. I only treat women.

So I treat the moms, but also provide information for siblings or resources like, hey, you should check out this resource for your kiddos, other kiddos, to just explore talking through their grief and just talking through this experience. Yeah. And it can look different in pretty much any family. So yeah. 

Lindsey: Yeah, I really appreciate that definition of up to the newborn period, because I think that's just hold space for such, it is such a broad time in our life, but I think it also helps us to kind of focus a little bit more when you say, like through the pregnancy, potentially loss of it, and then through that newborn period, imagine the needs are so different for the person experiencing it at those different times. But anyway, I really do appreciate that sort of like concise period of time that makes so much sense. 

Aleta: Well, I also was thinking like with the newborn period, you have NICU babies, you know, and things don't always go to plan in the NICU. So that's something else that I didn't say, but I think is included really in that newborn phase.

Lindsey: Aleta. What are some common misconceptions that people have about perinatal loss? 

Aleta: Yeah, I think one of the big ones is it's my fault. I did something wrong. I exercise too much or I didn't eat the right foods, or I was laying on my belly, you know, those early pregnancy moments where, you know, you think I can not supposed to lay on my belly, just all those little things. And really, it's most of the time, it is out of your control. I also think that people think it's a rare thing. So just what research has shown, it's like one in four pregnancies end in a miscarriage.

And I think it's one in 160 something that ends in a stillbirth. And so when we're thinking about those numbers, it happens more often than I think we realize. And for some people, I think, you know, if they even have a very late missed period, may have had a miscarriage and don't realize that.

And that's something that I've experienced. And it just came out through discussion with a midwife, actually, it was like, Oh, wow, okay, I didn't even think about it like that. And so I think that's part of where my heart comes from for this is just having been in that place.

But sometimes people think that perinatal loss isn't like a real loss if the baby hasn't been born yet, right? If it's a family member is like, you haven't even met this baby yet. But as mothers who are carrying, we're still connected pretty much from that time of conception, when you feel something is different in your body and start making these connections with your baby. And so just even thinking about not having that physical baby is still a loss, right? Just because of that, those emotional connections, those hormonal connections, and just that physical connection with that child inside.

And I think lastly, is like the person that says you can always try again, you know, sometimes you can sometimes it was your last IVF treatment, sometimes it was, you struggled with so many miscarriages, and just think, I cannot go through this again. Right. And so there are times where maybe it's not, where I can try this again, or it's even getting to that place where do I want to try this again.

So I think just holding space for those moms, those families, and just kind of figuring out how do we step forward from this? And is this something to move forward from, but just letting them know that this is not something that you need to hold on to that, you know, like you have to try again, but just give yourself that time to grieve, give yourself that space. And not listening to all the chatter that's going on around you. Because I find that some of the moms that I chat with, they're still hanging on to grief years later, but everybody else seems to have moved on.

And so it's really hard to navigate. How am I supposed to be feeling? I still feel this loss. And I don't know what comes next. I don't know how to be present for myself, my children, my husband, or significant other, right? So it's just one of those things where I think having those people that can come alongside you and support you through that, whether it's friends, whether it's family members, or whether it is someone like us, as trauma-informed clinicians that can really kind of step up to the plate and be that support system. 

Lindsey: A hundred percent, and thank you for sharing that experience with us, Aleta. I also experienced a miscarriage with the very first time Doug and I ever tried to get pregnant and had never been pregnant before, really suffered through all those thoughts. Am I capable of becoming pregnant? And anyone who knows me knows that we have a 13 and 11 year old now. So things worked out.

We got, we got our children, but even though, as you said, you never physically held that baby in your arms, we do have that connection. So I really appreciate you reminding us of that. And maybe for anyone listening who hasn't experienced a loss, it's really great to have that in the back of our minds because I'm not so sure, you know, we could relate to it otherwise.

And so anyway, I really appreciate, appreciate you sharing. In terms of the physical impact, and I know we're going to keep talking emotional and trauma-informed because that's you and I, you and I have for hours, but I'm curious from like just more of a physical impact. How do you think that pelvic floor therapy support really helps clients recover after a loss like this? 

Aleta: Yeah, I really feel like, I mean, obviously a loss encompasses so many things.

We think about just, you talk about physical, emotional, spiritual, psychosocial, it's all so OT, but getting into physicality, we think about, you know, depending on how long the baby was carried, you still have hormones that are going on if you've gotten to the stage where you're producing milk, right? So things in your body, but as far as what we can do, if you've had a vaginal delivery or a DNC or a C-section, then that's going to impact your body, your core and your pelvic floor differently. So how do we recover from that? It's going to be very similar to if you carried a baby to full term, based on kind of what is going on in the system. We want to work on breathing again and getting our clients, I mean, especially thinking about breathing and getting nervous system regulation, right? But teaching good breath strategies for being able to use our rib cage very well, thinking about any scar tissue that might be there and just kind of working through that, whether it is C-section, abdominal scarring, or vaginal scarring, thinking about getting, how do we get strong again? Like, how do we bring in that strength and engage our abdominals to support our core? And how do we even sometimes it's just like the strength to get up out of the chair, right? When you're suffering in grief, sometimes it's hard to even get out of bed.

So there's a lot of deconditioning that can happen. And so just getting people to even move in their bodies, even if it's just getting up and walking out to your kitchen, getting a glass of water, and then you come back in and lay down again, but just finding that movement in the body, getting the circulatory system going, getting your heart rate to come up a little bit, all helps in that healing process. And then, you know, we can talk about pelvic alignment and posture and those kinds of things.

But I really feel like it's kind of getting to that just the root of what is going on in the body. And something that I think I think about is like that womb sweeping, right? So when we're thinking about just kind of clearing out the clutter in the pelvis, right, we're hanging on to things in the psoas, we're hanging on to things in that pelvic bowl. And so just being able to process through that, just what we're holding physically in the body, that grief, or that sadness, or that just a heaviness, right, or that blank space, maybe it really, it could be different for different women, what they're experiencing in their body, but kind of teaching them how to just kind of do that body scan themselves and really see what do I see in my body, I know something that we talked about in the trauma courses, how I've gone through this with some clients where I have them do a body scan for color, what color do you see, you know, in your hands, or your feet or your head or wherever it is.

And usually it's a very vibrant and vivid color. But then we come to that womb space. And often it's black.

It's dark gray, I can't see it. It's it's something that's just missing, right, whether, whether it was a miscarriage, or it was a traumatic loss, or some other kind of trauma to the body. But just thinking about what is in that space? And how do we reconnect to that space.

And I feel like that's something that we as pelvic floor therapists can do beautifully is just kind of reconnecting to that body in that space. 

Lindsey: Oh, that's that's so so beautifully said, really, you're exactly right. You really walked us through sort of some of the key parts of pelvic floor therapy that are applicable to all of our clients, and then some of the ones that also are more specific to to really supporting this community.That was that was beautiful. 

How do think that OTs and PTs create safer, more validating environments for clients who are navigating grief and trauma? 

Aleta: Yeah, I feel like one of them is just holding space, right? And just being a listening ear. So there's oftentimes where a client will have been to a doctor had been to someone else that it's almost dismissive to them what's going on.

And so having somebody that can actually hold that space, even if we don't say anything for a good 20 minutes, we're just listening, we're just soaking it in. We're letting them process, right? So how often do our clients get to process through some of that stuff? And even if it's just we're being a sounding board, where they can just throw things out there, and we can just acknowledge and validate their feelings and really give them power in their words, and really help them to feel that they have this power and strength, because they're not getting that probably from other practitioners out there, and sometimes not even from family members, which can be really hard. If you just feel like my family is just not listening to me anymore, or not really validating my feelings, or just as like, oh, you're crying again, right? Where we can't, there's no timeline on grief, it comes in waves, you could be fine for, you know, days, weeks, months, and then it just hits you like a ton of bricks.

And it feels like you're starting over again. Because we do have to process that in time and take that time to really kind of work through this. And so I just feel like providing that safe space and even encouraging just kind of gentle rituals, like what can you do in your day to help, you know, hold space for them, but also remember your baby and, you know, having a place in your home, maybe that is this is where the baby's places, you're speaking the baby's name, if the baby had a name, and just validating that this was a person in their life, regardless of whether the baby was never born, right, it's still a person to them, it's a baby to them, someone that they didn't get to have that relationship with.

So just providing a way to have that relationship. And sometimes it's journaling, sometimes it's a painting, I saw a beautiful picture that somebody took of, they were holding their baby who was stillborn. And she was looking upward and just smiling.

And it was just a moment in time where that moment was captured that she just had this smile on her face, like she was looking heavenward. And just, it looked very peaceful. And that's something that she has now that she can remember, she can see her baby in the picture.

And she can remember that moment of peace, but just being able to validate that for for our clients. 

Lindsey: That's so beautiful. I have to admit, I have tears in my eyes right now. Just this is this is a hard conversation. You know, this is a hard topic. And, you know, it affects us personally.

And also, we I really do believe that we have such a unique ability to show up for these clients, even in just the ways these last 15 minutes, us talking, you've just done such a beautiful job explaining a myriad of ways that we can be be there. I'm curious if, just because it is impacting me so much having this conversation, have you found ways? Are there any thoughts that you have for anyone listening who, you know, for we have all experienced grief in some capacity, whether it was a baby or a parent or, you know, a grand, a grandparent? And so are there anything, any words of advice or things that you have found that works for you when you leave a session, and perhaps it was particularly heavy for you, even for a loss that you've had? 

Aleta: Yeah, I think for me, it's just finding those ways to get grounded, whether it's walking outside barefoot or sitting with a cup of my favorite tea, just being able to kind of reconnect in my body. Sometimes it's for me, because I am a Christian, I love to sing and lead worship.

Sometimes it's just putting on a worship song and just kind of letting the tears come. But feeling the spirit wash over me. I feel like we can find ways to get peace in different, you know, people have different ways. Sometimes it's taking a walk and just being away from people. I don't want to talk to anybody. I just want to be myself and with myself in nature.

And just kind of appreciate the beauty around me, right? Because there's life all around us and being able to kind of draw from that energy. Sometimes it's just the wind or watching a sunset, but I really feel like it's really an individual thing, what you choose to ground you and what you choose, what you gravitate towards, to kind of get your nervous system to just reset and be able to move on to the next thing, right? Not to push that we need to move on, but just to say, you know, in order to function in our day to day, to be able to care for ourself and others, we have to be able to kind of get through those things. And I say personally, as someone who works with people through their grief, and feeling that heaviness, I really do like I find someone and just get a nice deep pressure hug, right? Or just say like, wow, that was an intense session.

And that's all I have to say is just I just need to get those words out, kind of get that out of my system, get that deep pressure and then can receive my next client and be able to process with them and hold space for them, whatever we're doing with them, so that I'm not just carrying each person through my day and then coming home just completely drained and heavy. Like, I feel like we should leave our clients sessions with with energy, we shouldn't leave depleted. And if we are, then we kind of need to rethink what is our own regulation strategy? And what are we doing in our sessions to help even regulate ourselves? Because we talked about that co regulation in the trauma course, and just thinking about if I'm not regulated, my clients probably not regulated either.

And so how do I keep my stable base in order to help them feel that stable base? So that again, I think is just things that we gravitate towards to help bring us that comfort or that grounding would be where I would go. 

Lindsey: And I think that's so applicable, even if we weren't talking about loss and trauma and grief, I think that the stories that we hear and some of the the problems that our clients are experiencing, even outside of that, you know, I remember when I first started my private practice in New York City, and I was just in go go go mode trying to I had young children at the time, both under three. And I wasn't taking the time, even if it was just nothing at all with the heavy topic that we're discussing today.

And I think that that eventually it I found out that I needed to have a little ritual for myself. And it really is as simple as running hot or cold water under my hands and imagining those thoughts and feelings not staying staying with me. And so I loved hearing your tips of like the grounding on the earth, and even the hot cup of tea, the pressure, deep pressure, and even just saying the words out loud. That was a really difficult session. So thank you again, important considerations for for anyone in public health.  

So I'm thinking about potentially now, are you working with preparing clients for future pregnancies? So what are some important considerations when working with clients who are looking to prepare their body and minds for a future pregnancy after a loss? 

Aleta: Yeah, I think one of the biggest things is reconnecting with their body, reconnecting with their breath, reconnecting with their womb, right? We talked earlier about just kind of that womb sweeping and kind of going through the body, just looking at the color in the body, and just noticing this space, just taking ownership of our bodies, right? And just kind of coming back to that we could look at, you know, circulation in the body, we could look at pelvic alignment, but really, having our clients just kind of connect to themselves, and what makes me feel good in this moment? How can I reconnect with my partner to really kind of jump back into intimacy? For some women, it takes a long time to want to be intimate again, because of that fear of what if I get pregnant? And then what if I lose the baby? And then, you know, you just kind of spiral into all these what ifs, but then you kind of can throw out the, well, what if you do get pregnant? And what if you have this beautiful baby? And what would that look like? So maybe even doing some vision casting, and just, I'm one that for the first time this year made a vision board.

And so I know that a lot of people resonate towards that. So maybe you make a vision board for your pregnancy. And these are the things that you want to do with your body to feel healthy, some exercise, yoga, breathing, whatever it is, maybe it's weightlifting, maybe it's just walking.

These are some things how I want to nourish my body. So just choosing some foods that can be really nourishing and thinking about or having just some, some anchors, right, to think like, if I start to spiral, what can I anchor to, to be able to bring myself back down and kind of just calm my spirit and things back down. But I think one of the biggest things is like just rebuilding the trust in your body, like your body is strong.

And it's something that, you know, if this is something that you want to try, I want to encourage you to get there. And sometimes it's a health thing where you have to refer out, you know, to a medical doctor, you have to refer out to a psychologist or a counselor, but having that good referral network and not saying like, I'm not here to support you, but maybe you might need to talk to somebody else who just has a little bit more education and training in this area, and then bring those thoughts back. And we can kind of chat through those and see how do we kind of keep moving forward in this.

But just really, I think, always goes back to let's hold space. Let's give them time to talk through those fears. And really, you know, what is true in those fears? And what is something that we're just spiraling on that may or may not be true, but just they're holding that truth and kind of just sticking into that area. So yeah.

Lindsey: You have shared some really beautiful examples all throughout our conversation today of things that our clients can do and even things that we can do for self-care. Are there any other sort of like simple grounding or even body awareness techniques that people can share with their clients who are experiencing grief that we haven't talked about yet today?

Aleta: Yeah. So I love Tammy Lynn Kent's Wild Feminine book. I feel like that's something that I go back to time and again and refer clients to and just feel like even as clinicians just taking little nuggets from there. She also does classes. I've been in a couple of her just little mini classes where she talks through things and I just find that she just has a lot of wisdom to share with her own story and then just with the books that she's written.

I think having breathwork techniques like really having something where you know, if you need to do that one to two breathing or one to one breathing, or maybe we just need to do that box breathing. Maybe it's one nostril breathing or alternate nostril breathing, but just having some breathing techniques because breathing is the root of life, right? If we don't have breath, we don't have life. And so just thinking about how do we center around that breath and sometimes it's just focusing on your breath, letting everything else around you be quiet and just focus on the of your breath, the feel of your breath, the count of your breath, whatever it is, placing hands on your body to feel it, whatever you need to just reconnect to your breath.

And then I love movement. So I love to do somatic movement with clients where we're just getting things out. And sometimes it's more of like the tremoring kind of movement, right? Where we release trauma.

We think about animals in nature, you know, who are the prey that get chased and then immediately after they're safe and in the clear and in a hidden place, they tremor, they shake, they just shake all of that trauma and fear off. And we don't do that enough as humans, I think is to like, I don't want to say shake it off, but kind of just like shake shake it off, in a sense. So but just really kind of just getting that out and letting that come or maybe we are throwing like we stand up and raise our hands and then we just throw them down really fast.

But just getting that fast movement with the breath, just moving it out of the body, blowing it out of the body. I think something else I would say is just to help our clients recognize what are their triggers, and then find anchor points for themselves. And so just being able to notice in their body when they start to ramp up, how do we dial it back? What can I anchor to in this moment? But just having some of the strategies to counteract those emotions that stir up I think, would be something I would encourage clinicians to do with their clients.

Lindsey: Absolutely fantastic. I love those. I love those.

Are there any books or support groups or resources that you can that you recommend to your families navigating perinatal loss? 

Aleta: Yeah, so I feel like Wild Feminine, the book is something that can be for clinicians and for women in general, right? Those who have a uterus, have a womb. It's just a great resource to kind of look at what is going on in my body. She talks about grief. She talks about loss. She talks about power. She talks about sensuality.

She talks about so many things in that feminine space, in the feminine energy. There's an organization that's PLIDA.org. It's Pregnancy Loss and Infant Death Alliance. They offer educational courses, advocacy, and networking through their website.

Then there's another group that's called Return to Zero. Then HOPE is their theme. They're another online organization that does virtual classes.

They have resources and support groups. They have a directory of providers. If you're looking for someone in your area that might be able to help process this loss that you've experienced, they have some resources in that area.

I think looking into local hospitals and churches, just to find if there's any support groups, if there's any remembrance ceremonies that anybody is holding, if there's any memory walks. There is an organization here in Colorado Springs called Foreign Known Ministries. They have virtual support groups as well, but they also have been doing an annual walk.

The Wave of Light Ceremony. It's on October 15th, which is the Pregnancy and Infant Loss Remembrance Day. They have this evening ceremony for families in town. It could be from out of town. There's people that have come from out of state because they don't have one in their state to come to this event. This is their fourth year doing it.

I'm just starting to get involved with them. I'm volunteering this year, and I am supporting this year. It's an event to bring hope and empower families and just bring strength and encouragement surrounding this loss, whether it's a new loss or it's been years since your loss.

It's a time where your baby's name can be spoken, where they have lanterns that you can put in the water, where they have signs that you can place out in the field that has your family's name on it. It's a light ceremony. They have these light sticks throughout the whole grounds of where they're holding this event.

I've only seen pictures because I haven't been to it yet, but it's a beautiful event just to remember those lives and just bring some joy into that loss and just also connect families. I'm looking forward to supporting them. I'm going to be fundraising for them this year, and I look forward to just supporting them and sponsoring how I can, but I think looking for something like that in your local city so that you have those resources for your clients.

Lindsey: Aleta, I really can't Thank you enough for taking the time to have this just very difficult conversation, I think. And I hope, my hope is that anyone listening to this episode sort of sees without any doubt the role that we have to play here, how well it fits into our scope of practice and complementing the work that we do. And so thank you for leading the way in this.

I mean, you're one of the only practitioners, if only the only practitioner that I've spoken to that, you know, just is doing this. And so I just wanted to say your community is so incredibly lucky to have you. And it's just been such a pleasure getting to know you this past year.

And I can't wait to keep watching all of the work that you continue to do in your community and showcasing just how incredible occupational therapy is for, for so many, so many things that we go through as humans. And so anyway, thank you for taking the time to just share all of your wisdom with us and your passion. And I just, I'm in awe.

Aleta: Well, thank you, Lindsay. I know this was a really difficult topic to talk about. And I, I mean, you're the OT pioneer leader for pelvic health, and I hope to be an OT pioneer leader for perinatal loss to just inspire other clinicians, OT, PT, to just really step up to this challenge of supporting these families and these women. Because it's not an easy task. It's not a light task. It is very heavy.

And it is something that I think just takes just, I don't know, a special heart that really just can take this on. So I would just encourage anybody, if anyone has questions, to reach out to me, I would love to support you and getting started in your own community, or just even chat through what do I do with clients? It would be my honor and my privilege to do that. 

Lindsey: That is so incredibly lovely of you. I'll make sure to include all the ways that folks can reach out to you in the show notes. And Alita, again, thank you so much for being a guest and sharing, sharing all of your incredible wisdom with us today. 

Aleta: It's absolutely, it's my pleasure, Lindsay.

Lindsay: Thanks for listening to another episode of OT's and Pelvic Health. If you haven't already hop onto Facebook and join my group, OT's for Pelvic Health, where we have thousands of OT's at all stages of their pelvic health career journey. This is such an incredibly supportive community where I go live each and every week. If you love this episode, please take a screenshot of this episode on your phone and post it to IG, Facebook, wherever you post your stuff. And be sure to tag me and let me know why you like this episode.This will help me to create in the future what you want to hear more of. Thanks again for listening to the OT's and Pelvic Health podcast.