What I Learned About Pain That PT School Never Taught Me

•  Learn more about Level 1 Functional Pelvic Health Practitioner program
• Get certified in pelvic health from the OT lens here
• Grab your free AOTA approved Pelvic Health CEU course here.

____________________________________________________________________________________________
Pelvic OTPs United - Lindsey's off-line interactive community for $39 a month!
Inside Pelvic OTPs United you'll find:​

• Weekly group mentoring calls with Lindsey. She's doing this exclusively inside this community. These aren't your boring old Zoom calls where she is a talking head. We interact, we coach, we learn from each other.
  ​
• Highly curated forums. The worst is when you post a question on FB just to have it drowned out with 10 other questions that follow it. So, she's got dedicated forums on different populations, different diagnosis, different topics (including business). Hop it, post your specific question, and get the expert advice you need.

More info here. Lindsey would love support you in this quiet corner off social media!

Transcript

Lindsey Vestal

Welcome back to the OTs and Pelvic Health Podcast. Today's guest is someone whose work has changed what recovery after birth can look like in this country. Dr. Rebecca Seagraves is a physical therapist and board certified women's health clinical specialist who has served individuals and families both in the hospital and at home. Rebecca is the founder of Enhanced Recovery after delivery and obstetrics clinical pathway that maximizes mental and physical function during pregnancy and immediately postpartum through hospital and in-home occupational and physical therapy.

And yes, you heard that right. OT is baked right into her model from day one. She has extensive experience treating perinatal and pelvic health conditions in acute care, in home health, outpatient settings, including long-term hospitalizations, high-risk pregnancy, and following perinatal loss.

Rebecca's vision is a big one that I just love, and that's that every person will have access to obstetric rehab therapist during pregnancy and within the first six weeks after birth, perinatal loss, or pregnancy termination, regardless of their location or ability to pay. Rebecca, welcome back to the OTs Pelvic Health Podcast. We're so glad you're here.

Rebeca Segraves

Thank you so much, Lindsay. Thank you so much for having me on again. i just, I love speaking with you and I just love your community.

Lindsey Vestal

Oh, oh my goodness. Well, I have to just quickly say that I can't wait to see you in a couple months. You're coming back to the OTs and Pelvic Health Summit. And so anyway, I wish I could hug you through the screen, but November will have to do.

Rebeca Segraves

Absolutely, absolutely. Have I missed a summit yet? I was just talking about that with Jenna recently and I don't think I have. but i don't. yeah

Lindsey Vestal

So this is our fifth one, but our fourth one in person.

And I think you were there even in the virtual. So you've been there all five.

Rebeca Segraves

Oh man, I just, I really just love the summit. I love the energy. It just embodies everything I really value about pelvic health and and just about the future, what the future can look like. So yeah, this year I'll be teaching with Amber Schmidt, which is, she's just such a breath of fresh air. She's amazing.

Lindsey Vestal

She has the most vibrant, joyous perspective on anything. And it's it's it this is this this your presentation with her is going to be just unparalleled. So where i'm I'm so incredibly excited about it.

Rebeca Segraves

Same here.

Lindsey Vestal

So today's topic is is one that I think is really important, Rebecca. And you actually reached out to me. You were really hoping to have this conversation together. And I'm so grateful for that. Your wife Jenna gave birth about seven months ago and you know things didn't go exactly as planned and I'm going to link to some resources for anyone who's interested in learning the whole story because today we're going to focus a little bit more on the ways that pelvic health occupational therapy has reframed how you think about pain.

So let's just get right into it. You know, before pelvic health OT entered the picture, right, before  Jenna gave birth, what did pain mean to you in postpartum recovery?

And what pain sensations impacted you personally most early on? And how did OT help you interpret them?

Rebeca Segraves

Yeah, I mean, it's such a good question. Jenna actually planted this seed around the, it was our baby moon in Sedona, Arizona. And we had this really, really major conversation about this podcast that she had come across. And then, you know, the New York Times article followed shortly after, but it was about women who unfortunately had felt pain during their C-section. and she brought up the conversation. It was just on one of our long walks and might have been on one of the vortex walks that we did just to try to see if we could, you know get close to the energy field. And so we were very much having this deep conversation and she was just sharing if her birth had to cesarean delivery,

This is what she wanted in terms of me being there, our doula being there, um us advocating for her if she were to feel pain. And so in my background and our background of treating this patient population before our own pregnancy journey and postpartum, we have very much tied pain to the actual like tissue trauma or injury of childbirth.

And her story, it's definitely involved, but after things took a turn, she did have a C-section, ended up having a C-section.

I was still very much connecting pain to physical trauma. And that wasn't the case in Jenna's case at all. The pain that she was experiencing, i later, through really the help of Kelsey Mathias, our OT that showed us up on day seven, it was after Jenna was readmitted to the hospital, just a lot of complications that happened after her C-section. but Kelsey made a home visit to us on day seven postpartum and helped me connect the dots that what I was seeing and suspecting that Jenna was going through was very much related to trauma, to trauma in her nervous system.

manifesting as physical pain, manifesting as a lot of tension around her, just her upper body and not very much to do with her incision at all. Like she wasn't having actually a lot of like surgical pain, you know, um even what I teach therapists to be aware of and how it impacts function. it wasn't really her story. Her pain was coming from a trauma that Kelsey was able to reach and just in just such phenomenal ways. I mean, I could talk about that. We'll we'll we'll talk more about that. But yeah, the more I think about it

the more I don't think it could have been addressed in the ways that I knew how to treat pain as a physical therapist.

Lindsey Vestal

That's incredible. Thank you so much for sharing that. And I will say for anyone who is unaware, since we've already started talking about the summit, Kelsey Mathias is actually the co-host of the summit. So yet another and other connection, another connection that we have.

Well, Rebecca, I love that. And I can't wait to unpack that more. I have a similar question here that I wanted to ask you. you may have already spoken to this, but it may give you a chance to kind of go a little bit more deeper into those thoughts that you want to share with us.

Is there anything else regarding sort of this pain related belief that perhaps you had to unlearn as either a clinician and or as a spouse? 

Rebeca Segraves

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And so I think where I was going was that I very much... tied pain to a functional problem, like, you know, getting out of bed after a C-section, lifting the baby, positions of feeding the baby, caring for the newborn, all these things that we know a major abdominal wound would impact.

And so I was dealing with a little bit of a

I think I was dealing with a lot of just what I knew clinically, what I saw clinically, what I taught clinically when it came to early cesarean recovery in the setting of a pre-traumatic experience that Jenna had regarding postpartum fluid overload.

And so during her labor, which, I mean, lasted into the 32 hours or so of just um a lot of fluids being given and then a pretty emergent C-section we were later told, which I think added a lot to what I was suspecting Jenna was just dealing with mentally and emotionally.

We were told that Jenna was moments away from a splash and dash. And I, you know, was aware, not quite of that term, but was aware of what the midwife later explained, that they would have had to open Jenna up as soon as possible. I wouldn't have been able to be there. She would have been under general anesthesia because of where they believed Eli State was at that point.

And so the urgency of getting her to the operating room after laboring for so long, after so many bags of fluid that was given to her. And then within days, three days, she was readmitted because of just the acute ah postpartum heart failure. Her blood pressure had just skyrocketed. For us From an endurance athlete standpoint, Jenna's an ultra runner.

And her highest blood pressure reading was in the 180s over ninety I mean, just just incredibly higher than her baseline. And seeing Kelsey on day seven come to our home, I reached out to Kelsey initially with a lot of concerns of...

what I was picking up from Jenna emotionally and mentally. And Kelsey was able to really identify how much stress and tension Jenna was holding in her upper body. And what my perception of that, especially in the setting of all of that was, is that signs and symptoms of preeclampsia? Do we have another thing that we have to worry about? You know, referred pain to the shoulder. Is this more of the diaphragm and and from the, you know, fluid in her abdomen and all of this stuff. I was very much tissue, tissue, tissue. Like this is what referral patterns look like.

And Kelsey, just by observing her, you know, I was just very quiet in the room. as She was just with Jenna, at least in the first few weeks. I eventually, you know, let Jenna and Kelsey just be alone. But at least the first three weeks, I was just observing Kelsey,

Almost like unwind this idea about pain specifically that I had in my brain of how it shows up, of how it's referred, of how it's related to this major surgery. and it just wasn't in Jenna's case. A lot of what she was dealing with was reliving the trauma of her surgery, of her recovery, of her readmission, of the things that were said to her by practitioners,

Things related to her weight that was actually related to more of the the overload that she was still experiencing between the time that she was discharged from the hospital and then readmitted things. I mean, it was just, it was just one thing after the other that I realized was coming up as not referred pain because she had surgery, but a lot of what she just could not communicate, the disappointment that she felt like the,

the overwhelm that she felt. and Kelsey provided an environment where she was able to draw that out, both by reducing Jenna's pain, but also validating what she was feeling. it was just, it was incredible to watch and it still just gives me chills. I feel like I can go back to those days and I'm still there with Kelsey and Jenna.

Lindsey Vestal

The way you're describing it, it's almost like a psychic backpack. You know, like that she had all of  the shame, the questions, the comments, all of that burden was like a backpack that she was carrying.

And that was her way of protecting herself, Eli and your, your family. Thank you so much for explaining that because it's like, yes, of course we're trained in the tissues and referral patterns and all of those and all of those things. And those things are very, very real.

But it sounds like the way Kelsey was able to come in and really observe all that was to bring us into that other layer that a lot of times isn't asked about. In fact, we may not even be aware of it ourselves as someone going through it. And so it is this really delicately beautiful lens that she came in to to really hold space for and allow that backpack to come off.

You know, what do you think our some interventions that caused the biggest shift with working with Jenna?

Rebeca Segraves

You know, I love that question because um what I think worked, part of the reason why I wanted to have this conversation with you so bad, Lindsey, is because I know this is your world and I feel like I was still just observing and even the way that I explain what happened, I don't even know if that's true.

Right. It's a story I've told myself that this intervention that Kelsey was doing is tied to this impairment. That's the story that I've told myself, and it's the story that I've told even others over the past few months.

And that's, I think, that's I think the depth of really this practice. is that it probably is you know, it's somewhat true, but maybe the interventions have a whole different meaning to the practitioners who really live and breathe this every day. So I'll share with you interventions that I think made a difference, but there are some interventions that I didn't even think were interventions. I thought Kelsey was just having a conversation.

like you know It's just like, oh, wow, mean, how would she bill for that? you know It's one of those things. It's just like and how impactful they were in the moment, I just, I knew it, but I didn't realize that they were also intervention. I'll give you some like concrete things that just stood out.

In the first few days, Kelsey, by the time, like I mean, at least by visit number two, and by the second week post C-section, we had a small mini refrigerator just to keep Eli's milk in the room with us.

I didn't even think that was as huge as it was at the time. But in terms of like the amount that Kelsey made recommendations for environmental wise to preserve Jenna's sleep,

I didn't connect that at the time to her mental health or her wellbeing or the rest that her body needed, the pain that she was experiencing. I didn't connect all of this. It wasn't until, and even Jenna reminded me of this recently, because we were just like, just, we take some time sometimes and we'll just relive parts of her early recovery.

But there was like an early recommendation from the lactation consultant to breastfeed Eli on her side. And I think Kelsey was even involved in that, you know, because of just, I think, how Jenna was adapting, you know, to breastfeeding and always getting up even in the middle of the night to just breastfeed and still hold Eli in the recliner. I think Kelsey was a major...

part of bringing his diaper changing station, which was in his room at the time, into our bedroom, making sure everything was within Jenna's reach, making sure that she could stay in bed for basically all of it.

It was just all these little things that I just... I didn't at the time even connect them to interventions because that's not my world. Right. I live in a very like it has to tie to something functional. And I mean, and that's just me. I'm not saying that that is all physical therapists, but we tie things so much.

to the person you know to to a task that people are doing physically in terms of a change that they could make or a stretch that they could do And that wasn't Kelsey's approach. It was so empowering for us as a family to really bring care in closer to Jenna and It was things I just didn't even to think about.

And I teach this, this is my world. and it just shocked me how much she did. But those early interventions, for sure. Now, manual therapy, Kelsey completely introduced that way earlier than in practice that I had seen.

And so would love to talk about that because that is a little bit more concrete. But then when I talked later on to Kelsey, I think she even explained, well, yeah, that's neuromuscular re-ed.

And I was like, how? yeah you know I mean, she gets tied still to Jenna's state of mind and in her state of well-being. I mean, it was just, it was really fascinating to learn and just by observing.

Lindsey Vestal

Would you mind speaking a little bit to the manual therapy piece?

Rebeca Segraves

Yeah, I mean, so

There were a few times, I think, Kelsey would come, and I think with a plan. either She was always like ready to modify, but I think in her mind, she probably did have a plan, and Jenna would ask specifically only for manual therapy. And I was joking with Jenna recently, because We kind of tried you know each other about that. like Some therapists are very like, you know I don't want to do manual therapy the whole session with patients. That's not really functional or that's not really highly skilled.

And in Jenna's case, like she looked forward to Kelsey really working on her neck, just ah the amount of tension that she had around.

her the back of her head, suboccipitals are just small muscles at the base of her skull, a lot in her chest that she wasn't aware of. Kelsey would do a lot of releases in her pecs, work in her subscap and her armpit area, and just all of these muscles that Jenna wasn't even aware of, but once Kelsey found them, she wanted her to keep doing it. In some sessions, she really just specifically asked for Kelsey to just do manual work.

And I think those later sessions, I wasn't observing directly, but Jenna and Kelsey, they were always talking, right? And so I just, to me, I can't really separate. I can't just focus, oh, Kelsey just did manual therapy, and that was really what was helping relieve Jenna's pain. I think Kelsey was giving Jenna a peace of mind.

That I didn't put a finger on at the time, but I realized reflecting on what Jenna would share from their conversations, Kelsey was helping Jenna really manage expectations around her own recovery.

Expectations and still to this day, you know the fact that she's still on blood pressure medications and it's just been amazing. such a mental battle for her to accept that she still needs them and is benefiting from them.

And Kelsey making her see that what she valued was still being preserved because Eli was taken care of, because she could, you know, somewhat return to running that may not have looked like, you know, what she wanted right now, but she was returning to running and Kelsey was helping with that.

And so, manual therapy and the helping Jenna really cope with this stage of her recovery.

i can't separate them the way that ah we have to on our billing documentation, right? I couldn't separate that those two things were addressing Jenna's pain in such a deep, deep way and the a lot of just the discomfort that she was holding in her body.

Lindsey Vestal

Yeah. Yeah. um I'm curious, Rebecca, after OT, is there anything that comes to mind regarding the way you responded to Jenna when Jenna reported pain?

Rebeca Segraves

Oh yeah. I think I was, I was slower to listen. I think I needed really reminders that it wasn't always that I needed to respond in a physical way because I was just, I had everything. I had all the tools, I had the table, I had been at everything. Right.

And I was ready to try to replicate what Kelsey was doing. And I realized the environment that she created was what Jenna was wanting in those moments. And that environment just included listening, just stopping and just hearing her thought process of of just or just really her state of being at that time.

There was a lot of early coping that I had to even learn from Kelsey, like the way that she would answer a question with a question.

You know, like it's it's like or even a statement that Jenna would make about the inadequacy she felt early on about being a good mom to Eli because she couldn't do certain things or just physically or the fatigue and just.

getting around, especially just in those early weeks, how much it just took out of her. And she was questioning herself of like, am I am i really Am I really in it? Am I really being present? and am Am I really being a good mom?

And I realized that what she needed me to address in that state of, you know, whether it was a request for me to do what Kelsey did relieve tension in her neck, relieve the pain that she was experiencing a lot in her shoulders and her upper back,

I needed to also learn from Kelsey how to create that environment and how to respond appropriately. When Jenna was in that state of being, it just wasn't enough to try to recreate any manual techniques such that Kelsey was doing.

That just wasn't enough. You couldn't really separate the physical interventions from the environment that Kelsey had created.

Lindsey Vestal

Yeah, that's so beautifully said. and it really is so OT.

Just the ability to synthesize these things. And, you know, they can't really be separated. you know and And the way that billing and and and the way that documentation has us look through those lenses is that they're so distinct, but as human beings, nothing is that clear cut. you know And so I think it is really beautiful. And I can picture Kelsey. you know You've shared a lot of photos on social media as well, but I can picture Kelsey in this environment. you know, really being able to synthesize them seamlessly and in such a beautiful way. 

And so it's wonderful to hear you talk about it. And you've gone through it personally, you know, in such an intimate way with this with Jenna being your wife. And so I'm looking forward to hearing how this experience is positively going to impact all of your incredible programs. Because you know for those of us that know you, you're doing so much life-changing work already in this field of postpartum recovery. And so this just adds you yet another layer to it, which I'm sure you're continuing to just digest and implement and understand yourself just to continue to raise the bar for how we can care for our mothers. So this is fantastic.

Rebeca Segraves

Yeah, totally. I mean, there's one, speaking of photos, there's just one moment. This is so funny to me, because this is something that I honed a lot with not just the clinicians that we treat, but even in my own practice, is that early on, we do try to encourage moms to lie on their bellies.

And I could not for the life of me get Jenna to do it. Right? Like talk about creating an environment. She was just, um oh my goodness. Even using a mirror, she just, she didn't want to look at her incision.

She didn't want to touch. A lot of times she would cry and or hold back tears, but ask me to do the scar massage, all this stuff. And just all these little things. It's like Kelsey was able to get Jenna to lie on her belly for the first time.

Kelsey was able to get Jenna to make touching her scar more of a routine that she did and just gave her ways of doing it. Kelsey was able to get Jenna to calm down in ways like Jenna was not wanting to take her blood pressure because of just the anxiety that she felt.

And by reminding her of the soft blanket that we had, that Jenna could stroke in order for her to do that. It was just, there were so many ways that Kelsey was able to intervene to bring down a lot of the signals in Jenna's body that was just increasing her tension, increasing the discomfort that she had.

and And so, yeah, I mean, I think about it, I look at those photos and I have to just remind them like, oh, that was that, and oh, that was this. And it was just like, there was just, there were so many things that Kelsey was able to address because she created that environment of trust.

Like Kelsey, you know I could say this openly, you know but like in Colorado Springs or Colorado, you know where we are, it's it was it's very hard to find a home health therapist to actually come to you. And at one point, Jenna would have qualified to like go to a clinic or so And she still chose, obviously, to stick with Kelsey, you know with you know cash pay rate. And I've been like really open and honest about this. It was $200 per visit, whether it was an eval or whether it was a treatment.

And we could have probably had a home health, like home in-home massage therapist would not have been the same. 

Like Kelsey created such a bond in those early days where Jenna really, there wasn't anything that she was uncomfortable talking about. They talked about everything from intimacy and addressing that as early as Kelsey did. I think it was like week two she was asking Jenna about intimacy and just opening really ideas of just how to return to intimacy, you know, early than what the standard six weeks would be. I mean, it was just all of these things of how she honored the human experience that Jenna was having. And then that's where I think I do. I mean, I struggled as a PT, just really understanding what was an intervention and it was all an intervention. Like the whole visit, Kelsey was completely 100% present with Jenna.

In a way that I just, I think we sort of get disconnected from like a little bit. Like we, it's, and I understand why, and right?

I'm also in it, I'm a therapist, right? I understand that whether it's time or whether it's justifying a lot of what we do to either other practitioners, but Kelsey didn't have those chains around her, so to speak.

Like she had no limits of what she chose to address with Jenna.

And so she addressed all of it, and it was so beautiful.

Lindsey Vestal

If this were a knee replacement, the rehab pipeline would have been seamless. It would have been automatic.

Rebecca, I know you talk about this so much, but this is just such an important question, especially in context of the stories that you gifted us with today. What would it look like if complicated births had the same pipelines?

Rebeca Segraves

I mean, I think that for one I don't think the nurses would have just told, oh, I struggle with this because the nurses, even in the hospital, there were two nurses. It was um the director of nursing that came and then we had our own nurse and they were both in our room for a lot of different reasons, but one to basically just encourage us like, hey, you're you're ready to go home.

And even looking back, I'm like, we both were really hesitating. Like the experience that we wanted was that we wanted a care team. and they were convincing me that I was enough for Jenna.

And as much as I like to advocate openly about that now, I don't know why I let myself be talked into leaving the hospital that early.

But it was this strange thing that happened where I was getting ice for Jenna so she could be you know drinking water or whatever it was. And ah the director of nursing was literally just talking about me. Like basically, know, her spouse is really worried, wants to stay another night. She doesn't need to. And here I am just walking up the hall to the nourishment room, just hearing conversation. and so they see me and just like tries to play it off like, oh, there she is. And it's just like, you know, guys, that was so inappropriate.

There's just no way to play that off. Like, you're, you're just making it clear that you are ready for us to leave. And we're making it clear that we're on the fence for a reason. and sure enough, like within what three days, we were back in the hospital being readmitted.

And so with a knee replacement, you can guarantee that even if the spouse was a physical therapist, you're still going to give that person rehab after their surgery because they're your patient.

Their spouse is not going to just be expected to be the therapist and the caregiver and the other parent. Like, it just doesn't make sense to me why we would treat an open abdominal surgical birth this way.

And, For once, we prepared that you know this was not gonna be more of a financial barrier for the help that we needed, but just getting people into the room and still having to work to find those people, that was really the frustrating thing.

Like we, you know, even though we've run the only directory right now as we're speaking, that lists hospitals around the United States that offer OT and PT after birth, finding Kelsey still felt like just the biggest reward that we could have found. Like we, it was not, if this was not necessarily like a planned, we were gonna have home health OT.

And now I'm thinking like that should be available to everyone. like as an option, we now know that even Part B Medicare covers in-home outpatient PT services, if you will, for a physical therapist to come after a knee replacement.

Why would that not be offered even from the payer side, insurance side, to moms after birth. Like Jenna was in no condition after she was readmitted and then discharged to be going to an outpatient clinic.

And the value that Kelsey brought into our home, I could talk to you for another hour about, that's the point that I'm trying to make is that we'll give to a joint replacement what we won't give to a mom. And I just,

After being through this, I just don't get it, Lindsey. I just, I'm still stuck on that. Like, I don't understand why we we do. and and And it's not like she's going home to heal. She's going home to care give for a baby who needs, you know, care around the clock in those first few days, around the clock.

Lindsey Vestal

We need to keep asking these questions and not understanding why this care isn't given because it's not going to change until we do.

And so you've always been an advocate for this since the day I met you. But there is a very deeply personal fire now that has only helped your commitment to this work and the fervor that you have for this work. to to really be aligned. And so I'm asking you to not, don't figure it out because we need you to keep fighting. These questions need to keep being asked. And the change is happening.

The change is gonna keep happening, you know, and your directory is proof of that, right? And so anyway, I, yeah.

I have one last question for you, Rebecca. and This one is kind of still along those lines of change and how change can happen. 

You know, what would be the minimum visible physician led postpartum rehab pathway that a hospital could implement tomorrow?

Rebeca Segraves

There is actually a study and I'm blanking on like the year. I put it out there. I want to say maybe 2015, but it was actually physician written.

And it was about the cost savings that occupational therapy debt you know it does for a hospital with hospital readmission specifically.

And when I think about a lot of grief that it gives me to have to answer the questions in just such a way that joint replacement does not, you know, in terms of, well, you know, OT and PT are not needed in the room. What's the discipline that should be leading on this? And it's just like, we don't we don't say that for hip replacement. Like, OT is addressing one side, you know, aspect of that person's care needs. PT is addressing another aspect.

But for whatever reason, the push and pull is really strong. in early maternal rehab. And when I think about from a physician standpoint, if they had to partner with a therapist to lead this work, um there is more data, I believe, that will support occupational therapy services being part of early maternal rehab pathways.

Because of the amount of deep dive that they do and into all of the occupations that moms are responsible for when they're first returning home, all of them, not just self-care, newborn care, a lot of scheduling those tasks and prioritizing which tasks need to be done by them versus the help that they'll need from their caregivers or other family members. There is just so much to do that nursing by and large has been so grateful when OTP is part of their team

And this is documented by hospitals that have had an OT lead on the maternity unit. This is documented by physicians. I actually was able to record an interview last year with a surgeon well before, you know, we had our own experience, even with Kelsey, but a surgeon saying that she primarily consults with OT in the hospital for her moms after surgical birth because of how much they're addressing the early tasks that moms are doing.

And so to me, the minimal minimal thing that physicians can do who want to lead recovery programs in their own hospitals would be to partner with OTs who can look at this population, who can evaluate this population, who can possibly even find some concerns with with mental health and the trauma they experience because of the questions that you're trained to ask.

Even questions that I'll hear and I won't even register what you'll register and take from that answer, or even the way that a person responds without saying anything that you're able to pick up and alert the team. I have so many examples from the field that OTPs have shared with me, even through our work, that are just coming up right now. And so I think the future will be that we see more OTPs on the maternity unit, and physicians are going to realize that that's the best decision that they could have made in maternal health.

Lindsey Vestal

And your programs are the ground working programs that are doing that, that are offering those trainings. so For any OTs listening to our conversation today and they feel called to this line of work, go and check out Rebecca. Would you mind sharing your website and your socials for folks

Rebeca Segraves

Yeah, so I mean, the major website that really really fuels all of this is enhanced recovery after delivery. But where the hospitals live that are offering OT and PT services on the maternity unit is Pelvic Health Web.

The pelvic health and network forward slash hospitals. And so a lot of what you'll see us put out there is through pelvic health network, which is really our media arm. That's really highlighting the amazing leaders in this space. That's what we're really, that's why we exist is that we want to shed light on who's actually making history right now.

Lindsey Vestal

Yeah, amazing. Rebecca, anything else? Just thinking about, you know, your intention for our conversation today and all of the stories that you shared with us. Is there anything else that you want to add before we end our recording today?

Rebeca Segraves

And there is one thing, someone recently responded to to one of our posts about how OTs are taught just through their education about program development.

You know, they said a little bit more than that. They actually accused us of being tone deaf and I was ah tone deaf and I was like, right, actually like chuckling because I'm like, yeah, a lot of my stuff is tone deaf.

I'm a physical therapist trying to explain what an OTP does. Like it's all tone deaf, if you will.

Like it's all just like, wow. you know And it's just like, yeah, we do that. We're trained to do that. You know, we take business courses and things like that. especially in the OTD programs. And so our post was highlighting an OTD student who had started a program that offered both OT and PT to moms after C-section in her hospital during her capstone.

And I realized like all that I have, it's just very transparent. Like I'm just observing your practice and there it goes so much deeper than just what I can explain. And so I'm no authority on occupational therapy you know being as relevant in this space as it should be.

I'm more just, I think I want people to really understand that because of how much I don't know, but willing to just put out there into the world about what you all do is is just to me indicative of how badly we need you all to just speak and tell us like what you're doing And so,

For whatever space that this has in our conversation today, we're really committed to highlighting the professionals who are stepping out and just doing amazing things for moms, moms that were in Jenna's situation, caregivers that were in my situation.

And so I really just want to encourage you all to not be frustrated about me or other people not knowing or understanding what you do. i think that's the point is that we want to hear from you, not hear from people about you.

And so, yes, I am tone deaf and I'm proud of it because I shouldn't know everything you should. And I want to know more and learn more. And that's why I go to the OTs and Pelvic Health Summit every year that we can. And hopefully I'll bring Eli this year.

Lindsey Vestal

Yeah. I want to thank you for saying something incredibly important, which I hope every occupational therapist practitioner listening to this episode can really take to heart. which is don't be shy to share our worth.

Because I think there's a long history, and I've had a lot of conversations with former AOTA President Allison Stover on this, of really insidious imposter syndrome and lack of pride for what we do because it can look so simple.

And a lot of times, as you so beautifully described with Kelsey, our interventions are multilayered. An untrained eye could just see it as something very basic or simple, but simple is not, simple is actually some of the most beautiful interventions we can have because it gets at the very core of dignity. 

And so occupational therapy practitioners listening, please be loud. Please don't hesitate in any situation, especially in a multidisciplinary situation, to be proud of what you're doing to bring this person back to the dignity that they deserve to have because it's it is unique to OT and it is incredibly important and incredibly special and so I'm call to action let's put imposter syndrome to side let's stop being shy about the the amazing work that we do in the world and uh just let occupational therapy continue to grow as a result of it

Rebeca Segraves

So true, hear, hear, yes.

Lindsey Vestal

Thank you, Rebecca, for coming on and sharing just incredibly deeply vulnerable and deeply personal story that I know is going to have a huge ripple effect and change lives, whether it's someone listening who's been through something similar or an occupational therapy practitioner who is now called to serve this community and continue this is incredible healing. So thank you so much for sharing this with me today.

Rebeca Segraves

Thank you for allowing me to, Lindsey. Thank you.