Conversations #3: When the Story Doesn’t Go as Planned

Some desires are holy and still go unanswered on our timeline. Kimberly and Elizabeth continue the conversations series by elaborating on practical ideas that flow from discussing God's Sovereignty and His Provision. They sit down for an unfiltered conversation about Christian singleness, jealousy, and the quiet grief of watching other people step into marriage and kids while you’re still waiting, serving, and trying to trust God’s provision.

The heart of the conversation is hope with substance: we cannot define ourselves by relationship status, whether single or married, because Jesus is the only safe foundation for identity. We explore what real church community can look like for singles, the childless, the divorced, and anyone who feels marginalized, plus simple ways to practice kindness and dignity in everyday moments that can otherwise wound.

If this resonates, share it with a friend who needs language for their story, subscribe for more conversations on identity and belonging, and leave a review so others can find the show. What part of your story still needs safe community?

Transcript

Welcome And Why This Matters

SPEAKER_00 0:04

Hey friends, I'm Kimberly. And I'm Elizabeth, and this is the Father's Business Podcast, born out of Sylvia Gunter's heart for people to know who God is and who they are in him.

SPEAKER_01 0:15

So wherever you're listening from today, we pray that you will sense his nearness and know that you are his beloved sons and daughters. We're really glad you're here with us today. Well, hi everyone. Welcome back to Conversations with Kimberly and Elizabeth while we're hanging out together in the same city, which doesn't happen a whole lot. But we were talking the other day about God's provision and God's sovereignty and providence, and that there's a tension in those things and a wrestling in those things. And Elizabeth, I mentioned that I had some questions for you based on something else you said to kind of go in a different direction. Yep. I think you said maybe being jealous when other people would end up getting married or having families or things like that. We did another podcast a few weeks ago where we shared some of our story and how we got here and how we became friends. For a long time, we were both single and we were both in ministry. You mentioned in one of those videos that you also had a desire and that you were praying for your husband since you were 14, and maybe he just needed prayer that long. Right. But um that you'd been praying for that for a long time, and that you also wrestled with being jealous and that tension of God not giving you what you were the desires of your heart, what you were asking for. So I wanted to ask you if you wouldn't mind sharing a little bit more about that journey of singleness and the desire to be married, as well as then what that was like in ministry.

Jealousy When Everyone Else Marries

Marriage Disillusionment And Child Longing

SPEAKER_00 1:38

Yeah. I mean, good grief, how long do you have? We could talk about this. I mean, I've I already through like four tangents we could go on from this. Yeah, I I don't ever remember a time, you know, once I hit puberty and thought boys were cool instead of having cooties that I wasn't excited and looking forward to being married. For me, it was more about having a partner and being in a partnership. And to me, that was the model of what partnership is, is you get married. And that one-to-one where we are better as a team than we could be as a part. That is our our friendship, right? We've been best friends for so long because we both value being apart and loyal and persevere and all those types of things. And so I just always wanted to be married. I watched my parents have a good marriage and she raised three kids, and at the same time, she was able to do Bible studies and be on Kingdom Business. I was like, I want all of that. And so went to college, and my parents' story is they met at the mixer at Ole Miss, where they went to school, before classes started their freshman year. Okay. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. And so that means like you hadn't even gone to your first class and you get introduced to the man who becomes your husband. Yeah, so that's just what happened. That's just what happens. You go, I went to Auburn, War Eagle, and I'm just gonna show up on campus, and obviously within the first couple of weeks, I'm gonna meet this wonderful godly man, and we'll date all through college and we'll get married and we'll have babies and everything will be great. And none of that happened. And so then I was like, okay, no problem. I go into ministry full time, and that that is a weird, whether you're in ministry or not, being a single in a Christian church culture where a lot of it is focused on marriage and family and those types of things. You feel a little like a fish out of water and kind of weird. And then I went overseas the first time. Okay, maybe I'm gonna meet him on the mission field. And no, not gonna do that. And then I went to seminary and Kimberly, the seminary I went to, the ratio was eight men to every female at the seminary. Wow. And I'm just like, good googly moogly. If I cannot do years at a seminary where I I wanted to be married to someone who wanted to be in ministry, I knew that at this point. And so I was like, if I can't find a husband here, where else am I gonna find one? And I left seminary single. And I remember one of my favorite professors came up to me and one other friend of mine who was single the week of graduation, and he said, It is a monument to the stupidity of the men who go to this school that you are leaving here single. I appreciated the compliment, and yet that was also not helpful for them to point out once again that this thing that I've wanted, and I'm serving God and I'm loving God and I'm following God and praying for this person I haven't met yet, and he's still not around. Go back overseas the second time. He's still not there, you know. And I'm not saying I went all these places to find him, but I was like, okay, well, it's this now in this season he's gonna come, and this season is come. And I not only watched all of my friends from college and seminary get married and start families, we were working with senior high youth group, and then I start going to the weddings of girls that had been in our youth group ministry, and they're getting married and having babies. And I'm like, for real. And that is where the jealousy part really kicked in, is when it's like, I remember you and you were 13, and I'm here at your wedding celebrating your wedding, and I'm still not married, and it's something I really desire. So there was a lot of good in all of those seasons, and there was a lot of things God taught me about how he is the ultimate bridegroom, and I am complete in him, and I don't have to have a husband to be complete. Like I've learned all the lovely, wonderful life lessons. I got to experience things that I probably would not have experienced if I had been married right out of college and started a family, it would have been a different adventure. So I don't regret anything of how things unfolded, but here's the other fun part. I got married, and then it didn't end up the way I thought it was. Right. Then I end up being told that he's leaving. I had had people even before I married that person, people had said, The Lord's telling me that, you know, this is who your husband is, and da-da-da-da-da. Talk about disillusionment when you've prayed for this person, and even people have said, you know, God is speaking to me that this is absolutely the one for you. And then several years in, he just tells you one day, I'm I'm leaving and you're not coming with me, and this is over. So then you go through that season, and then God has brought another man into my life, and also in the mix of all that is this desire for children. And I'm now 35, 40, and I was like, biologically, it's not gonna happen. And I had one person in particular, I won't name names, but people would know who it is. I did not go looking for it. I didn't ask it, I didn't even want it, but I was helping coordinate a conference that they were speaking at, and after it was over, they came up to me and they said, Are you pregnant? Because I was married at the time, so that was an appropriate question, maybe. But and I said, No, but I'd love to be. And I'm like, Yeah, the Lord told me to come over here and pray over your womb, and you're gonna have two kids. Great. This is awesome, fabulous, thank you. And then it doesn't happen. And I never had children. Fast forward all the way into the story. I get married to someone, he has two kids, so I'm now the bonus mom to two kids that I think are great. So, yes, in some way did all that was promised come to be, but nothing like what I thought it would. And looking back, there is a part of me that wonders. I do believe it was a God-given desire that I wanted to be married, but how much of it was also a product of the Christian culture I grew up that was in just, I mean, I don't want to say like this much of the message. I'm I want people to really understand this, but I'm only going to be normal when I am married. I I'm I'm somehow lesser than until I get married. I'm lesser than until I have kids. No one would have come through the front door and said that to me, but there were some messages mixed in there. And so that it has been a lot of wrestling and trying to think through. One, it is how God wired me. I don't want to be alone. I want to have a significant person, whether it's best friend, husband, whoever, teammate, whatever that is, but how much of it also was growing up in a culture where this is God's design, which it is, I mean, Bible says it's not good for man to be alone, right? I I have wondered where was I struggling with God's provision and being jealous and feeling like if he's giving a husband to this person, then I'm missing out. How would that have been different if I had been more celebrated in the singleness? Right. Does that all at all make any sense at all?

Identity In Christ Through Waiting

SPEAKER_01 8:31

No, it makes a lot of sense. I have one more question. I'll say I'll say something else. But first, then we're gonna talk about you. One thing we talk a lot about that's that's our passion to talk about is our identity in Christ. Yep. How do you think your identity journey was formed throughout that process?

SPEAKER_00 8:46

I do think that is the richness of it. That I I if I look back, I'm like, I'm glad I didn't get married the day I graduated from college from a man that I met, you know, my freshman class, whatever. Not saying that it couldn't have happened, but those deep longings going unfulfilled and God having to say to me over and over again, I'm enough. I'm more than enough. I am everything you need and who you are in me is what's important. You're not defined by your role, you're not defined by who loves you or who doesn't, or how many kids you have or how many you don't. I have a rich, fun relationship with God that I'm not sure I would have had if I had gotten everything I asked and prayed for from the age of 14 when I graduated from college at 22. There was many a Valentine's Day when I didn't have a date. And I was like, Well, Jesus, you say you're my bridegroom. So I guess you're my date. Right. And so I turned Valentine's Day in from a, as some people call it single awareness day, from being a sad day that no one wants to spend time with me to even now, I'm kind of like when my husband wants to do something for Valentine's Day, I was like, Well, I already kind of got a Valentine, you know, because it became a thing over many, many years. I would go to a park and take a blanket and have a picnic. And now to humanize, I was by myself, but Jesus and I would have a picnic on Valentine's Day and just spend time together, enjoying each other, what listen to worship music, whatever. And so it helps me cultivate a love relationship with God that I don't think I would have had if I'd gotten what I asked for when I wanted it.

SPEAKER_01 10:24

There's a lot of messages in there, right? And in this conversation, I think one of the messages is we are we cannot define ourselves by our relationships. Right. Right? Whether we're married or single. Right. We can't identify ourselves as single and that's the end all be all. We can't identify ourselves as married and that's the end all be all. Right. I've quoted someone else saying this, but um, if you put all your weight on the person that you're married to of being your identity, then that's a train wreck waiting to happen. I hear some people walk this path in a married relationship. You're sharing about walking it in a single aspect, but walking that path of discovering the richness of your identity in your father, right, like the joy of that relationship is a beautiful, is a beautiful thing. And so sometimes it comes through the form of having a marriage, sometimes it doesn't. So thank you for sharing that.

SPEAKER_00 11:12

Yeah. And I think also like there's things I looked like, even as simple as when I have a husband, I won't have to take the car to the mechanic by myself because I have to. You love that. Yeah, you remember that from when I was when we were roommates. I mean, I felt like they were like some you know, stupid single female coming and would tell me I need all these bibity bobs done to my car that I don't. And guess what? I still take my car to the mechanic. I I'm grateful that I have not only my husband but other men. I can call and say, is this really what needs to be done to my car? But so many things I thought a husband was going to save me from. It's like, hmm, yeah, no, it doesn't. Yeah. And yet at the same time, there is something I don't want to anyone to think we're bashing marriage or anything like that. There is something to being a part of an us. And when my first marriage ended and took some time to heal from all of that and was starting to think about it, I was like, you know what? I think I'm ready to to date again. Didn't know that it was where it would lead. But I was like, because I miss being a part of an us. And that's when I knew, okay, you're not doing it because, you know, you're sad, you're lonely, you know, whatever. I was like, there is some synergy that God did create in relationships, whether that's the body of Christ or uh, you know, as we said, partners or friendships or the husband and wife. Because I mean, it is true. He said it's not good for man to be alone. We as humans, we're not meant to be alone. And yet there's a lot of people, Kimberly, yourself included, that have never been married. I I know you have probably had your own journey of whether people mean to or not, some ways making you feel lesser than or incomplete or whatever, because that has not been the a choice that you made.

Why Church Can Feel Lonely

SPEAKER_01 12:54

Yeah. I think especially I I can't speak for outside the church because so much of our world was in the church. And so if if you have an experience that's outside of that, I'm not negating that at all. This is just uh the conversation between us and and the stories we've had. And I think that so often, I don't even know that the church does it intentionally because the Bible does say it's not good for man to be alone. Sure. But there is an elevation to marriage. And when you just attend church and you hear sermons, you look for classes to go to, they're often for couples, or there's often the illustrations in sermons are for husbands and wives. Right. And that's wonderful. I'm not at all negating that. I think that I think marriage is a beautiful thing. It's a hard thing and it refines us, just like parenting and everything, right? And yet, in that, those of us, me, who have remained single for various reasons, can feel very lonely. Yeah, and very lost in that world. And I think that is the place where I don't want to feel lonely or lost. Right. Because it is the body of Christ. And so we are designed to have community. I used to say Sunday was the loneliest day. Yeah. One, ministry was lonely. Sure. Working in the church and doing ministry on Sunday, you're working, ever other people are choosing to come and worship, or they're volunteering to come or whatever, but you're being paid to be there in a lot of ways, and we that's another conversation. But in so many ways, when you work in the church, um, and this is true for men too, oftentimes you you come alone, you show up early, you're the last to leave. It's your job. Right. You know, and so it can be really lonely. And then people leave church and they go to lunch with their families or they meet up with friends or whatever, and sometimes you're the last to leave, and you're like, well, where did everybody go? I didn't get the memo of where we're gonna connect or meet up or whatever. I have heard my married friends talk about even in marriage, you feel that. Right. So again, that takes us back to God has to be the one that we cling to, that we recognize our identity, and that we we find joy in those other relationships.

SPEAKER_00 14:48

I mean, I think there's an awkwardness because I don't think people in any way are intentionally trying to mistreat or make anyone feel lesser than in the church. But it's kind of like you were saying back when we had, you know, Sunday school classes or even small groups now, what however your church structure is. You know what to do with children, you know what to do with teenagers, you know what to do with married people, but then singles, that could be a kid in college or that could be someone in their fifties. How many churches did I attend? Where we all just got thrown in the same room. Well, you're single, so you go in this room. I think that's evolved over time. I think now more you can get into a small group based either on interest or need or age. There's so many different ways you can do that. But I do remember the dreaded feeling of I was glad that I was in ministry so I had something to do on Sunday so I didn't have to go to the single Sunday school class.

SPEAKER_01 15:37

Yeah, yeah, that's true. That's true. And culturally, we're in a time where people, more people are single. Right. I mean, I remember the evolution of the the show Friends, just culturally, we're in that season. And yet that that doesn't mean that in the church that's still welcome or in society that's still welcome. It can it can still be a lonely place to be. We had a friend that shared a resource with me several years ago, and one of the chapters in particular said that until the church really figures out how to reach other marginalized groups, we're not gonna know how to do that until we first know how to reach single people. And I was like, hmm, interesting. Singleness is addressed in scripture, right? Like Paul says, he talks about remaining single.

SPEAKER_00 16:14

Yeah, almost as if it's the preferred choice.

Building Community For The Marginalized

SPEAKER_01 16:16

I was gonna say it can be a calling. I will say I don't know that I was ever called to be single, just to be clear. I mean, my journey was here I am. Um I did not dream of marriage as much as you did, but I did always imagine myself being married. That was part of what I foresaw as my future was a husband and children. I would love to say for those of you listening who are part of the church, we gotta do this differently. You know, we gotta think about other people that don't just look like us or have our story differently. And I got to see that in the church that I was a part of for several years in Virginia as I grew through the years of 30s and 40s, not expecting to stay single. I had several friends and even family units who would come around me and welcome me into their home and welcome me into friendship and conversation, even though I was single. And that was a delight. And I honestly don't know what I would have done without that. I mean, that was a godsend for me because not everyone has that. I would say be intentional about looking for the single people, for marginalized people. Like we could say for all of us, we're walking a story that not everybody knows. Yeah. I just thought that it would be worth having this conversation as we were sharing our story earlier. It's part of our story. It's not everyone's story, and that's fine. But I do think that if you have the opportunity, be intentional and seek out opportunities to love the marginalized. We have a cat. We have a cat. Come here. Come on up. Yeah. As you seek out others to spend time with, you may find something new, you may find joy, you may find a new relationship, a new friendship. Some of my friendships were birthed because someone just reached out to me and said, come be a part of our family dinner or whatever. And then friendships were formed. It's not just single people. Yeah. Right?

SPEAKER_00 18:10

Right. Yeah. I mean, the other one that kind of bubbles up in my head as we're talking about that is people who are married, so they kind of fit more of the quote unquote norm, but don't have children, whether it's they choose not to have them or they can't have them. I'm keenly aware of that because that's you know part of my story. I always wanted to have kids, even as I said, had the person say, God told me you're going to have kids, which please don't do that. But that's what that person did for me and just raised hopes. And and eventually, yes, down the road, I guess it was true. I do have two kids in my life that I get to be a bonus mom to. But being mindful of that, even on simple things like on Mother's Day or Father's Day, for some, it's a joyful, happy time of celebrating. And but even people who have children may be estranged from their children. So Mother's Day may be a day of grief for some people. And so I think in all these examples we're giving, it's just as you said earlier, we're all walking stories and we have no idea the story that each person is walking and what they carry, and just being intentional to walk around with eyes opened. Of how can I show what love and community and acceptance and the love of God looks like to anyone, whether that's in the church or the person you meet? Walmart. But you know, I think we're talking mainly in the church because that's been our work experience and our and our life experience. But yeah, um, so we're we're two women who have between us, I think we've had almost every major life experience. Maybe, maybe, except for having a child. We have not given birth to anything. Right. Um, but you know, we've been through loneliness, we've been through divorce, we've been through remarriage, we've been through how do you love children that aren't yours, we've been through walking a life that looks different than you thought it was going to, but also having a life that's really full and exciting and rich, and looking at all the opportunities we wouldn't have had if God had done it any other way. Right, right. Um, so it's just it's that winding road of staying close to him and walking day by day with him and never quite coming to the full conclusion that you know exactly what God's up to.

Practicing Kindness And Ending Well

SPEAKER_01 20:23

Yeah. To tag off of what you said a second ago, too, just being aware of how to be kind and loving, and this is where we get to live out the fruit of the spirit and the character of Christ in treating people with dignity. Yeah. And I think about how he treated the woman at the well, even though he knew her sin, even though he knew what was going on, he he spoke to her and with her. And that's uh just an example that always comes to my mind. We're not talking about sin here necessarily and people with sin, but but at the same time, sometimes that's part of it, right? But I think, you know, there was a there was a gentleman one time that walked past me in our church and said, Happy Mother's Day. And then he turned around and he said, Oh, wait, you don't have any children. I'm sorry. And I thought, like, at first I was like, oh, that was nice. And I was like, oh, I just got punched in the gut. I just got punched in the gut. And I had I spent the morning reframing, no, I have a hundred kids that are in my youth group that are I shepherd and I love and I care for. And like I have wrestled with, even though I did not desire so strongly, I wanted marriage, but even though it wasn't like the strong desire of my heart, I did desire it and I felt less than. Yeah. You know, I felt less than because I wasn't a mom or I wasn't a wife. Yeah. And that's what you're supposed to have.

SPEAKER_00 21:38

Right.

How To Reach Us And Support

SPEAKER_01 21:38

And be. And so I think anytime you get the opportunity, just just be real, be human. There's a sign I have in my office that says be human, be kind, be both, you know. Because I do think that's that's what Christ taught us is to treat people with with honor and dignity and to call them up to what it means. To recognize that if they are in Christ, they are a covenant son or daughter of the king. There are people out there who are in marriages they don't know what to do with. Right. There are people out there who are single and didn't want to be single. Right. There are people out there lost in a lot of different circumstances, widowed, divorced, that didn't ask for those things. Right. And in all of that, we don't know their pain, their struggle sometimes. And I think if we can in the church, because that's what we're speaking to in this moment, if we can remember that under the umbrella of Christ, we are all just sons and daughters of the king. Yeah. And if we can treat each other with that kindness and that royalty and not other people, then we'll go a long way.

SPEAKER_00 22:38

And I would say to anyone who's listened to this, especially as a female single person or married, whatever, but really our heart. For anyone who's a woman in ministry where you're surrounded mainly by a male staff. Like there's there's a thousand different ways to be lonely in the midst of doing what God's called you to do. I would just say we're here. We're only an email away, or go to our website, thefathersbusiness.com, and contact us through that, or you know, leave a comment at the end of this podcast. We are a safe place and we understand what it's like. And we we know the joy and the and the many things that God does through you. And we also know that there's some some heartache and some pain. And sometimes you just need a safe place that's not connected to anyone you know in your church or ministry, just to kind of go, hey, do you have time? And so just wanted to say whether or not anyone else sees anyone listening to this podcast, God does. And he he knows your name, he knows everything about you as much as we joke around him about understanding each other's likes and dislikes and you can finish each other's sentences. God can do it a million times more. Wherever you find yourself today, and whatever chapter in your story, he is there, whether you feel like you can see him or not. And he's not finished.

SPEAKER_01 23:53

So thanks for being a part of this conversation. We look forward to hanging out with you again later. Take care.

SPEAKER_00 23:59

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