EXPERIENCE 216 | Teamwork Makes the Dream Work - if the Beer Tastes Great! Josh & Angie Grenz, Owners of Verboten Brewing and Barrel Project in Loveland, and Verboten North Brewpub in Fort Collins.

Teamwork Makes the Dream Work - if the Beer Tastes Great!  Josh & Angie Grenz, Owners of Verboten Brewing and Barrel Project in Loveland, and Verboten North Brewpub in Fort Collins.  

I met Josh and Angie Grenz in the early months of their opening their first Verboten location in a quiet industrial park in Loveland, and Angie actually came to the very first organizational meeting for the first LoCo Think Tank chapter - before I had come up with the name!  She didn’t join, and hasn’t yet - but I remain hopeful.  We’ve stayed in touch over the years, and reconnected more properly last year when they opened their second location in what had been Black Bottle Brewery in Fort Collins - which closed the fall before.  

Verboten means forbidden in German, and their selection of beers mostly has one thing in common - they use ingredients that would have been forbidden under historic German purity laws - which basically means you can have lager and you will love it!  Sours and Porters and Wine-Barrel aged Stouts and you name it - they’ve done it - and probably won a prestigious medal for it!  Josh and Angie eventually moved to a great downtown location in Loveland, and the Verboten North is at the corner of Prospect and College in Fort Collins.  

This is a journey of starting small, focusing on the product and the people, and growing into a regional brand.  In an industry that has experienced decline in recent years, Verboten continues to grow - and it’s due to hard work and smart decisions by Josh and Angie and their dedicated teams.  So please enjoy, as I did - my conversation with Josh and Angie Grenz.  

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I met Josh and Angie Grins in the early months of their opening their first verboten location in a quiet industrial park in Loveland. And Angie actually came to the very first organizational meeting for the First Loco Think Tank chapter before I had even come up with the name Loco Think Tank. She didn't join and hasn't yet, but I remain hopeful. We stayed in touch over the years and reconnected more properly last year when they opened their second location and what had been Black Bottle Brewery in Fort Collins, which closed the fall before. Verboten means forbidden in German, and their selection of beers mostly has one thing in common. They use ingredients that would've been forbidden under historic German purity laws, which basically means you can have lager and you will love it. Sours and porters and wine barrel aged stouts, and you name it, they've done it and probably won a prestigious medal for it. Josh and Angie eventually moved to a great downtown location in Loveland, and the Verboten North is at the corner of Prospect and College in Fort Collins. This is a journey of starting small, focusing on the product and the people, and growing into a regional brand in an industry that has experienced decline in recent years. Verboten continues to grow and it's due to the hard work and smart decisions by Josh and Angie and their dedicated teams. So please enjoy as I did my conversation with Josh and Angie Grins. Welcome back to the Loco Experience Podcast. My guests today are Joshua and Angie Grins and they are the founders, owners and operators of Verboten Brewing and Barrel Project in Loveland and the recently new Verboten North Brew Pub. And, uh, wow. I said it all correctly. Good job. It's a mouthful. Yay. So, um, let's start with, uh, how, how long in Fort Collins now with the north location? Oh, we are right at almost a year, almost a year. 10 months in a year. Okay. 11 months, April. Yeah. Yeah, 11 months in right now, so, mm-hmm. And, uh, how is the addition of food to the, uh, delivery of services? Oh, I, I tell you, I mean, you had food before, but pretzels and stuff. Oh, just premade snacks. Yeah. Yeah. But its nothing like this, not a kitchen. Yeah. It's definitely a labor of love. I think you have to love having food. Yeah. Or it is your worst nightmare. So. So you do love food though, it sounds like. I do love food. I love your menu. I've really enjoyed Yeah. Uh, several of the sandwiches I've had. Yeah. Thank you. And a pizza. Mm-hmm. So, uh, you know, good job on that. And that's relatively straightforward, right? Mm-hmm. It doesn't take a genius to put it together. Yeah. No. Uhuh. Oh. Not that you don't have geniuses working for you. You probably do. No. Uh, I tell you, if it was left up to me, I would probably try and do something way too bougie and crazy and then we would Right. Be broken and nobody would buy it in month three. Yeah. So it was crazy. My wife and I were just at, um, have you ever been down to the sand dunes recreation area? Oh no. It's kind of close to Sand Dunes National Park and, uh, we're a Hot Springs fan, so a joyful journey we've been to down there. Mm-hmm. But Sand Dunes has, uh, like a community pool with all these kids and old people and stuff. But then they have the greenhouse, which is like, kind like the, the high hops brewing kind of space. Oh, ah, the greenhouse kind of space. Mm-hmm. Or whatever. So it's just this gorgeous place, but they've got a bar and then their kitchen is putting out like crab cakes and really good sesame crusted ahi. Mm-hmm. And really kind of bou love stuff for like. North of Aosa. 40 miles. Yeah. Wow. With nothing much around. Yeah. No, I was really proud of'em actually. And they were not overpriced. Yeah. It was like they're giving those citizens mm-hmm. A little chance to have some nice, uh, you know, culinary delight. Nice. Yes. Yeah, it's important. We'd love to check that out. Yeah. Go down there. Chicago. We went to the blanking on the brewery Brewhub. That's a Michelin star. Oh, moody Tongue. Moody tongue. That was a fun event. Oh. Inter Michelin Star Brewhub. Oh wow. So you talk about like the, um, getting good at two things. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, and you know, uh, a simple pizza menu all the way up to a Michelin stard, um, menu tasting menu. It's fun to see where brewers, brewers go. Chuck land. Yeah. Okay. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Do you have aspirations to. To get that started, maybe never quite that far. No, no. I would just like to consistently, that's a lot of work. Have a decent product that people enjoy having alongside some beers. So let's, uh, let's talk a little bit about the, the new location, especially now that you brought a couple of IPAs in. Mm-hmm. Um, which is one of the things I remember we talked about, Angie, that, uh, when you moved to Fort Collins, you realized they'd like a lot more IPAs. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Actually, you know, at first we thought, well, we're gonna make this a kind of an extension of Loveland, and then pretty quick we're like, you know, it's not the same thing. Yeah. It's a different space and it needs its own focus. Yeah. And so, um, we happened to be vacationing in California and Josh was drinking all of these great Alvarado Street IPAs and we went to, and Carmel, yeah, there's, there's one brewery in Carmel. Okay. And more than half their taps were. Hop focus beer. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like sweetheart used to be. Yeah. Yeah. Kind of. And it, and it was interesting just because, you know, he, he just never got sick of it. He drank IPAs the whole time. And so that's my wife, honestly. Yeah. And so, you know, we know that their, the popularity of IPAs isn't going anywhere, but then we got to thinking really, you know, it's a, it's something that we already had a great brewer, Kurt, he mm-hmm. He's done, um, IPAs for peculiar for a while and is just really talented and very passionate about them. The art of the Hop. Yeah. Mm-hmm. But we had him in Loveland doing everything else but IPAs. And so we, we got to thinking, you know, it'd be fun to kind of change our focus up there a little bit and make Fort Collins more focused on IPAs. And, and he's slowly but surely been doing that. And now it's, it's been exciting.'cause I think we're really starting to draw people in with some of his IPAs. So we're, yeah. I love it. And, and we had 20 taps and so. We're still doing other styles. Sure, sure. But we're gonna have eight to 10 of those will be hop focused. Okay. So anywhere from Pale Ale to Sure. West Coast. Mm-hmm. You know, pilsners, hoppy, pilsners to Well, and your, all the range of the IPAs, so your roots is really kind of doing what we want. Mm-hmm. Yeah. With beer, right? Yeah. Right. Yeah. Uh, Josh, uh, maybe I'll let you chime in a little bit. You're, you were home brew before you guys started, is that true? Yeah. Home brewed for years. Um, involved with the Home Brew Club in Loveland. Um, and uh, yeah, that's just kind of how I got started. I grew up in Fort Collins. Okay. So new Belgium del. We're there when I could start drinking. Right. So I've always been, you know, into the beer culture and loved the beer culture. And we were doing beer cas. And so yeah, it was just, uh, that that was the start. And, um, yeah, we just had our 12th anniversary last weekend. Oh, is that right? Yeah. Oh, I missed it. Oh, sucks. That was fun. I, uh, we got all the anniversary beer still, actually, I was out, we were on a big road trip, as I mentioned. Yeah. So, uh, well, and I remember like, some of your early brew and I think they're still on, or like, like a Kentucky style and just some kind of more obscure kind of mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Recipes, if you will. Yeah. Talk to me about that. Was that like by design or? Yeah, that was by design. So, um, I mean, my brewing style and this was, was using, you know, doing different things using different ingredients. Mm-hmm. And, um. Angie came up with the name Verboten, which means forbidden, which was based upon what was forbidden in Germany to use. By law, they could used four ingredients in beer, water, malt, hops, and yeast. And everything else was illegal for boden. Forbidden. Yeah. Yeah. So it was just a focus on spices, fruits, obscure styles, barrel aging, specifically spirit and spirit barrels, which was also illegal. Oh. Um, and so that all kind of fit into mm-hmm. Not only my brewing style, but what we like to drink. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And um, yeah, I like to drink the weird stuff. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Sometimes. Yeah. And I feel fortunate, you know, new Belgium, you know, especially new Belgium. Odell too, but especially in New Belgium, we're doing all these obscure styles, you know, Belgian styles with fruit and, and spices and Yeah, of course they've been doing that this before the Belgium thing kind of came along. Yeah, of course they do that in, in, in Belgium. But, um, that was kind of new too. I. To me and to Northern Colorado and to Colorado specifically. So we were kind of focused. It also allowed us to on that, but it also allowed us to just move and be trendy. Right. Um, or follow the trends. Yeah. You got no limitations, right. And be innovative and all those things. So we just wanted to be innovative and, and kind of take people the time we opened and take, take people to the next level. So we, we were like, let's, we're not converting people from Budweiser. I think that's already been done in Northern Colorado. And those that, like Budweiser, that's, that's fine. No problems with that. But people that are looking for like kind of the next experience in beer. Yeah, yeah. The next flavors in beer, beyond. They already had switched to craft beer and Mike Bruce and we're in that scene and we were like, let's take that a little bit further, but then let's keep going. Wherever that takes us just allows us to Yeah. Be innovative and different. Yeah. I was around during, you know, I, I moved here in 99. Mm-hmm. And so, you know, like 90 shilling and Easy street wheat and sunshine. Mm-hmm. You know, had a dominant Yeah. Or a growing mm-hmm. But a dominant share of that left market still and they're still good beers. Yeah. Yeah. But yeah, the variety really started to come in with some of those smallers and of course New Belgium was doing some of that. And I know Dell's from the start. Yeah. But it really. You know, they were leaning on those flagships and so you'd see them on the, all the handles. Mm-hmm. And then about the time you guys came on, the scene was when, you know, the restaurants Yes. With good beer scenes started coming and all that. Mm-hmm. Beer bars. Yeah. Choice, beer focused bars, all of these places. Yeah. And it's funny'cause when I, I was not a beer drinker when I moved here, so when I, you know, married Josh and started drinking beer, it wasn't, I didn't start with Budweiser. I started with, um, Odell New Belgium Linden, um, brewing on Lyndon Street. And these were these amazing, you know, full bodied, um, you know, robust beers that I was drinking. And so, you know, I cut my teeth on on some good stuff, so. Fair enough. So tell me a little bit more about the, the north location now. It's, uh mm-hmm. I'm, I'm very familiar with it'cause it was the former Black bottle brewing. Mm-hmm. Um, which was one of the most recent, um, the, the last bank loans I made was to help Sean open black metal brewing back years ago. Yeah. Well, yeah, we, you know, we heard the space was gonna come available and, um, we're immediately interested because we had been looking for a while for a second location. Um, our debate was where was. The best spot for us. Um, going down to Denver seemed overly uh, difficult. A little too complex. Yeah. Yeah. But coming up to Fort Collins kind of felt right because, uh, he grew up here. Yeah. I, we spent the first I two decades of our marriage in Fort Collins. Sure. So, you know, I've been here. You had a lot of community connections through Style Magazine and all that. Yes. Yeah. So we knew a lot of people and so when we heard it was coming open and it also was a fully built out brew house. Right, right. It just kind of made sense. Does a license come along in a situation like that? Um, kind of, or. It can, it's easier. Yeah, it can. What we did is we, um, we took the license for a short period of time while we app applied for a new license. Mm. Um, and then we moved everything over to the new license. So, um, but it, you know, it's, uh, a brew pub license versus what we have in Loveland as a brewery manufacturing brewery. So, uh, two different licenses that we now hold. Yeah. Yeah. Does the brew pub mostly, as I understand it, requires some of that food element. Yeah. You know, some 20, 25% or whatever, it's 15%. Okay. Which is kind of cool because it's 15%, that's not a ton. Um, it tends to be more than that naturally. Um, you can still distribute a bunch of beer and stuff like that. Yeah. It's kind of this cool license though, because you don't have to have the kitchen open all the time. You're not under the same requirements as maybe a tavern. Oh, interesting. Or another, a restaurant. Yeah. So we can open our clo or close the kitchen as we want. Uh huh So it's like, okay, the food truck's here from this time, but you know, it's not the rest of the time. So yeah. As long as 15%. Yeah. As long as you're hitting that number. Is that like a monthly measure or, yeah, yeah. 15% of your monthly sales. Yeah. Yeah. So, um, so kind of built it out in a, in a mm-hmm. Kind of modern, trendy compared to your, your south, your level location is a little more like Colorado brewery industrial. Yeah, yeah. Industrial. Yeah. Industrial old building. I mean that, yeah. The building was started in the twenties. Yeah. And finished sometime in the thirties, added onto, so it's got old brick Yeah. And industrial to some point. Yeah. But also. O an older building with a totally different fill where this is Yeah, yeah, yeah. Much more modern. And this was, yeah. A newer building, and then we went in and black bottle was so dark. Mm-hmm. And so we really just wanted to brighten it up. Yeah. We also knew that we were gonna be offering, um, spirits and wine and addition and food. And so we wanted a space that felt a little bit more. Yeah. Um, it's got a little bit of a four 15 vibe Yeah. Back in the day. Yeah. A little more community, but a little less, um, pigeonholed right into the, uh, it's a brewery. Right, right, right, right. Okay. So, yeah. So, um, Josh, why don't you tell me about this? Oh, I guess your, this isn't your recipe. This is your brewer's recipe now. Is that right? Yeah. It's our brewer's recipe. So this is the, uh, the better use of mind. Yeah. Better use of mind, hazy. Mm-hmm. Hazy. IPA, hazy juicy IPA. And, um, this is, um, yeah, just kind of. A current offering. Um, you know, and what, what Kurt's doing, what he wants to do, and when we're in agreement with is just rotate them for now and kind of let our customers pick, see which ones really catch on, see which ones really stick, and then maybe those will be, you know, the, the year round offerings. And are you guys canning on location? Mm-hmm. All the time. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. We finally are. I know there used to be those like canning operations that would run around. Oh yeah. Yeah. And can you up a few kegs or whatever, but yeah, no, we, I mean we, um, you know, inherited a canning line that was the fifth one built, um, by a company in Denver called, uh, wild Goose. Okay. It was a fifth one built during Covid. Mm. So it was, you know, when breweries shut down overnight. Oh, right. At least they wanted canning lines because they had to get beer out. Right, right. That was the only way to do it. And so this was a, an affordable machine relative, I. Mm-hmm. They're all expensive, but this is a relative machine where it fills one at a time, but built well. But it was in disrepair, so I've just been working on it. We, we've ran our first successful runs there, um, this last week. Okay. Mm-hmm. So actually a lot of these, including this one that we brought today, we had to take to Loveland and use our canning line there. Oh, so you've been canning for a while? Yeah, we, we have been canning the stuff there for a little bit. Um, but we had our first successful runs just on Friday. Oh, wow. There. So just getting the, the machine up and working so Well. Thank you. I feel very honored. Yeah. We're, we're trying to get every, pretty much everything you can take to go in, in a can. That's, that's won't be everything, everything. Just because logistically that's stuff, but it's gonna be most everything that he's putting, uh, out and brewing there. Um, you can get in a can to go. That's a nice little, I I suspect that be has become a pretty popular thing is people will have lunch and a beer mm-hmm. You know, with their wife or mm-hmm. Something, and then grab a four pack to go. Yeah. Yeah. Mm-hmm. And it's, that's a nice little, uh, add-on revenue wise to the mm-hmm. To the ticket, right? Yeah. Yeah. And, and everything is so highly limited right now. We don't make huge batches of it that, you know, if, if you like it, you get to take it home, get it. You may not get to see it again for a while, so. Yeah. Well, and. It's interesting. When you guys first launched, you know, the, the Growler was very much the scene, right? Oh, yeah. Yeah. People come and buy a couple beers, still 50 of them in my basement. Right. I, I'm down to like five now, but, uh, I use'em for my kombucha actually. Oh, yeah. But I imagine that has gone, like, once the Crowler came along, breweries kind of focused more on that. Mm-hmm. I think easier labor wise and you didn't waste so much product. Mm-hmm.'cause the growler were always like Yeah. Overflowing and spilling and sometimes waste a lot of product and sometimes they come in dirty. Dirty. Yeah. They're dark and you can't, your beer tastes like crap because, and they have a bunch of crap in the bottom. Yeah. Growling spectrum. And so we, we stopped. Yeah. We still fill them. We will fill them and we'll do our due diligence to make sure they're clean, but we stopped selling them. Yeah. Yeah. So we do everything in aluminum. I mean, we have the, you know, we got on the, the Crowler machines. Um. Kind of when those first came out. Yeah. Which at this point has been years now, eight years ago or so. Yeah. Yeah. I think is a workhorse though. Yeah. So we got one of those at each location. So any beer you want, you can take in that. Yeah. Yeah. Um, and then, you know, we're just doing more of the, the Yeah. The cans. More varieties. Yeah. 12. Well, I think that's one ounce package. One of the trends that's changed really since Covid Nation in some part is like people drink more at home than they used to. Yeah. Yeah. You know, it used to be, uh, kind of this, uh, verboten thing. Mm-hmm. And it's like, well, we can't go out, I guess. Yeah. We'll drink at home. It is true. I, yeah, we definitely see that there's a lot more packaging going out, packaged beer going out, so, yeah. Yeah. That, I mean, that kind of ebbs and flows somewhat. Um, I think. Kind of immediately after Covid, people couldn't wait to get back in the Yeah. Tap rooms. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. They were, they were drinking at home. And so, so it's kind of a mix. It's kind of a mix. A lot of people wanted to get back and be social, and we definitely have that crowd too. Um, but a lot of people enjoyed Yeah. Just drinking at, at home. Yeah. Yeah. That liked being alone and that's, you know, I mean, I, there was, there was a few weeks I wished I could have just hunkered down and not seen people. Right. We still had to work. I wonder what the aggregate is. Like if you, if you took like the, all of the kind of hospitality industries mm-hmm. Especially the restaurants and bars and taverns and stuff. My guess is that the people that used to go out a ton now stay home. A little bit more. Yep. Which then puts a dent in the, in the restaurant industry. Sure. Well, I think the DoorDash, yeah, the DoorDash a lot, a lot more. Right. But then DoorDash gets 20%. I always say this or whatever. I mean, we are, we're door dashing a lot because we have a ice cream shop two doors down from us in Loveland and people DoorDash, ice cream. And it kind of cracks me up because whatever that pint of ice cream costs you normally you're paying 25% more to have it delivered to your house. Right. But they do it all time. All the time. That's half melted. Maybe they put it in a cougar. But it's definitely part of our lifestyle now is, um, you know, ordering in which before it was a, you know, it was pizza. A rarity. Yeah, it was pizza when you did it. Yeah. And now it's all over the place, so. Yeah. Yeah. So, um, let's talk about the operations a little bit. Mm-hmm. So you've got a brewer in Fort Collins and then another brewer in Loveland. Yep. Mm-hmm. And Josh was the brewer. So now he just kind of. Jinx around are what, what's, what's your job, Josh? What do you do for OT in these days? Just, just whatever. I mean, I'm janitor the maintenance man. Yeah. Supply coordinator. That's mostly what I do. Yeah. Operations, supply coordinator. I keep everything moving in production. Yeah. Gotcha. Um, so you're ordering materials a lot of times and stuff like that, ordering materials, keeping, keeping it going, um, filling in holes where there's labor needs, right? Yeah. Head up, head up. All QC basically. Final jack of all position. Yeah. Oh yeah. So it's, it just got so busy with everything else that I just couldn't, you know, what I loved and what I still love is, you know, get my hands dirty and brewing, but it. And, and I got to do that. Mm-hmm. Up until Covid. And then it was just time to kind of, to, to reshift that and focus in on the business part. You don't do it ever even just for kicks. Yeah. I'll jump in. Okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Now he does. When he wants to make a certain beer, he gets in there and bakes that beer. He gets a fresh idea. He is like, okay, I'll let you know. I got it. Root uhhuh. Mm-hmm. Yeah. That's usually, I mean, honestly, those are the beers he's really passionate about. Those are the beers that we oftentimes build metal with. Yeah. Because he just gets an idea in his head and has to see it through. And how many medals have you guys had so far? Oh, well, we've had two GABF medals. Yep. Um, which for who? Our killer boots. Now our first one was Little Nonsense Barrel aged Imperial Stout. Oh, oh, yeah. Yeah. That's, and then that was early. Yeah. And then, um, our barley wine. Mm-hmm. Which is, seems like that's, we're, we're on a hot streak with that right now. Hmm. Um. And the World Beer Cup. As far as the big ones, I mean there's a bunch of small ones, but the two big ones I always think of Great American Beer Festival and the World Beer Cup. Mm-hmm. Okay. And then there's like the US Open, that's fairly big competition. A few others. But yeah, those are the big, big ones. But I think like the World Beer Cup, we have seven now. Yeah. Dang. Yeah. A lot for our barley wine and, and for our barrel aged and dark beers and stouts. Yeah. So that's why the barrel project is such a big part of especially. And can you get those barrel project beers up in the north location too? Uh, occasionally, yes. Right now we have Mountain man Don sell'em too fast. Yeah. Yeah. We have Mountain Man and cans, which is what we took our first major metal ever was, uh, is the World House. That was our first World Cup medal. Yeah. At a year and a half old. So. Okay. That was so exciting for us. And so we bring that one back every so often. Is that a barley wine also? It is Barley wine light is like what I like to call it. I mean, technically it's, uh, English strong ale, so. Oh yeah. Yeah. I think, uh. Winter warmer. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I like it. High A BV, but yeah. Yeah. But not quite a barley wine somewhere in between. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Not, not quite breaking stools over your friends. Right. But almost barley wines aren't really, I mean, one of the sweet things about barley wines is that there are so sweet mm-hmm. That, at least for me mm-hmm. Who's not really a sweet connoisseur. Yeah. A barley wine kind of restricts my desire to go back for another sip, even though I love it. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Like, I just don't have that craving for a next sip, by the way. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. You have to kind of love that style sitting by a fire. It's like a port wine in some ways to me. Correct. Yeah. It's, it's really, I mean, it's the strongest beer that the English made and, um, so yeah, I mean it's, it's just, it's a winter winter beer. I mean, it's, it's, they were making it in the winter time and it's would survive a long time because all the alcohol and I think it's, uh, underappreciated style. Um, but it's definitely kind of an acquired taste, special occasion. It's not an everyday drinker. It's not a lawnmower beer. Yeah, it's not a shower beer. I mean, you can, yeah. Yeah. But it's funny, there's a whole entire group on Facebook called Barley Wine is Life. And um, yeah, our brewers, he, he posts on there quite a bit, but yeah, it's funny'cause they, there's a thing called like barley wine chugging actually opening a can and chugging the whole can change your day. Yeah. I like barley wine, but I've never done it. I like to sip on it. They're usually like 11% or something like that. Yeah, yeah. Usually. Yeah. Double double digits and up. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, ours are a regular ones, the lowest is 11 and the highest is. Been 18. Oh yeah. And Angie, what's your, uh, how would you describe your, uh, your job Oh, at promoting these days? If Josh is kind of operations overseer, I am the, the pencil pusher, kinda the back of the house. Yeah. Finance, admin, hr. Yeah. All of that. Um, and then I definitely, um, kind of am leading the gap, the gap between the kitchen and the front of house right now. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Kind of, you know, helping both of those at north. Um, so it's, it's a lot of fun. Yeah. Yeah. But yeah, it's, uh, I'm, I'm definitely usually the one behind the scenes for sure. Yeah. Yeah. But yeah. How much, uh, how much have you learned? Um, oh gosh, so much. I mean, we're learning every day. The restaurant portion is always, um, something new that, that's a challenge to figure out, uh, you know, between managing menus and food costing Yeah. And staffing. Um, so it's kind of like, it's little, its own little worlds. Yeah. Yeah. I was just thinking about that. Like, you know, a restaurant will have a manager, right? Mm-hmm. But. But that's with all the revenues of the restaurant can pay that manager when you've got a 15% or 22% or 27% of your revenues. Yes. Like you can't have like a whole Yeah. It's, it's not full-time chef, like figuring out your restaurant enough moneymaker Yeah. To have its own human that just runs it. So, yeah. Yeah. So, but, um, we have such an amazing team there now. I think that's the biggest thing that we've learned is that, you know, you gotta have the right people in place. And now we have a friend of house team and a back of house team that work really well together. That's also a hard thing to accomplish. It took us every bit of the first year to, to get that team in place that works so good together and get a new culture, you know? Yeah. I mean, we have, you know, such a defined culture in Loveland and, and we know what it is. Yeah. And here we thought that that would be easier to figure out. Yeah. It was ing it was, it was challenging to, to find what our culture was. Based upon our staff. Well, I mean, ING and what we're doing like in Loveland, you're one of the OG breweries. Mm-hmm. First of all. Yeah. Right? Mm-hmm. And you got a great reputation. Everybody knows about you right? Downtown. Mm-hmm. You're kind of a. Like the cool kids all wanna come work for you there, here in Fort Collins. Mm-hmm. You're like, what's verboten? Yes. Mm-hmm. It's funny. It's, um, you know. Yeah. And Loveland, it's, it is very true. People wanna work for us, uh, and people trust what we put out. Mm. Mm-hmm. And so, um, we, I don't wanna say we don't have to work hard'cause that's a big thing to, to, um, a big standard to keep. Right. But as long as we tow that line. People come to us Right. Moving into Fort Collins, you know, we're, we have the, a good reputation, but we still have to prove ourselves. Sure, sure. And so, you know, we've, we've really tried to focus on not just having great beer, but having great food and having great cocktails and having great wine. And, you know, it's. The learning process has been that sometimes we miss the mark on the way we do something because, you know, it's not, you know, our You're newer at this part. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, but I think that we've still got great beers. Yeah. We've got great cocktails. We know that. Yeah. Yeah. But I think that we've, like, we keep, continue to learn from our mistakes. So I think that we've elevated, um, things as we've gone along. We have this great kind of hidden gin program that people don't necessarily know, know about, but the ones that do come in for it pretty solidly, we have 30 gins on. Oh boy. And yeah. And they can come in and we serve them differently than other people do. We serve them more like a European gin bar would. Um, we have the garnish and the gin and then the tonics on the side, and they can kind of mix it themselves. The, yeah. Oh, that's, could you pick your garnish? Pick your tonic. Oh, that's really interesting. Like with herbs and stuff, kind of. Yeah. We have all kinds of Yeah. Have Oh, fun. And some suggested, we have some suggested ones too. Yeah. We can suggest a pairing or people can come in and play. Huh. And so it's kind of fun. My, uh. The chef of the restaurant where I first worked in college, the first restaurant I worked at. Mm-hmm. The Grainery, uh, Maurice, I hope you're still with us, um, but I kind of doubt it. Um, but Maurice was a really big guy, and, and after his shift each day, he would have a, uh, skip and go naked at the bar before he went home. Do you know what that is? No. You could offer this. This is a nice drink, Josh. I'll let you put the recipe together, but it's give or take, um, three shots of gin in a, like an 18 ounce cocktail glass. Mm-hmm. Um, maybe, uh, like I, I guess it's just sour, like a gimlet kind of, uh, limey kind of stuff. Mm-hmm. Um, and then top it all off with. Bud Light from the tap. Wow. Uh, so you got basically, is that the naked part? A beer and three shots of gin and an easy drinking Wow. Vessel. Oh, with ice. With ice. With ice, yes. All right. I'm gonna go back and make one of these today. It'll make you skip naked. We pilsner. Yeah. Pilsner should work. Yeah. All right. All right. Well, we'll get back to you on health. You might want to decrease the portion size. Just a touch. I say gin. The gin can, yeah. I really doubt you could skip much after that drink though. No. Well, when Reese was skipping 300 pounds, skip three 40 pounds maybe. Oh, it's like a memory skip like your memory? Yeah, more like that. Yeah. Yeah. Usually he would just have one and go home and I felt comfortable. But if he had a second one. You didn't know what kind of conversation we were gonna get out to with Maurice. Right. It should be a wild, yeah. Six shots and two beers, basically. But he taught me a ton. Like so much of what I actually know about cooking in a restaurant and, and whatever is, uh, yeah. Yeah. So, um, so talk about verboten South now a little bit. Like, uh, that's the barrel project. Yeah. That's the mm-hmm. More traditional. Tap room, I guess, right? Yes. Mm-hmm. Definitely more traditional, more, um, uh, experimentation as far as just, um, always doing something different there. Kind of always looking for something fun to do. Mm. Um, yeah. I mean, keeping that innovative motion. Yes. Yes. Yeah. Um, and it's just, it's always fun. I mean, it's so much about beer knowledge and, um, uh, new, new styles and experiment. When I've been in there, I've met a lot of people that. Are there all the time and it's obvious. Yes. Yeah. Yes. Yeah. We have a lot of, I mean, we have lot of regulars. We have a lot of, we have regulars that, that are there more than we are. I'm sure. We have a lot of people that met there that now are married and mm-hmm. And they come a lot of friends and hang out Yeah. And do other things together now. And so, I mean, that, that's, that's what's cool about tap rooms and that's what's always been fun. And the culture of Tap has that and 12 years of, of community there is amazing, like 12 years of Yeah. Getting to know people. Um, and so we have such a history there now that, uh, it just makes it, it's really a special place. I think it's just such part of the, um, the community now that it's just, it would truly be missed if we weren't there. Yeah. We just, you know, we're a place that people meet after work, or the first stop that people go to celebrate something. Yeah. You know, so it's pretty cool that we, yeah. If somebody's having a bachelor party downtown Loveland, you're for sure one of the stops. Yes. Right. Don't question about it. Right. And our, like, our employees, um, are part of the people's families now. They just know'em so well and so mm-hmm. You know, that's something that it's, it's a tight weave down there, and so we really love that part of it. Yeah. Josh, what's the name of this one? This, uh, the West Coast. Uh, this is Give me time. Give me time. Mm-hmm. Yeah, just West Coast IPA. Yeah. Um, pretty classic West Coast. I would say both like your hazy and your West Coast are pretty mm-hmm. Mainstream. Mm-hmm. Very good. Good. Yes. Within that, but, uh, not shocking in any particular fashion. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Do you have a, do you have a favorite, you favorite one over the other? Uh, well, I mean, I like hazy. Yeah. Generally speaking, I, I drink more haes. It's, it's, mm-hmm. You know, when I, when I find that West Coast that I like, it's just my mood. I mean, I'm a, I'm a hop head at heart, like, you know, people always ask me, I'm surprise, you haven't yet what my favorite beer is, and my answer always is. The beer in my hand. But, um, what I get after, you know, shift, long day. Usually something hoppy, a lot of times it's a pilsner or something light. But yeah, I always go to go to hoppy. If we're visiting a brewery somewhere, I'm always gonna try whatever hoppy they have on. Mm-hmm. I just, I just love the difference in hops. How can change, change just a base beer style and be so different within that style? Yeah, yeah. Mm-hmm. The same malt in it, same yeast even. And then the different hops, how different that beer can be, where everything else is the same. But at the, uh, at the greenhouse there that I just described to you. Mm-hmm. Um, the two most popular orders from me and Jill, uh, she was getting the crank anchor. Mm-hmm. Uh, and then I was getting, oh, it was, I think it's called like. Epic day. Mm-hmm. Yes. A double IPA from the same, uh mm-hmm. Is it Una Vista? No. Eddie Line. Eddie Line. Eddie Line Brewing Company. Mm-hmm. They do a pretty good work down there. Oh yeah. Yeah. They make great, great stuff. Yeah. Jill was like, she hates double IPAs and Imperials usually'cause they're too sweet for her. Yeah. Yeah. Um, but that one, she was like, oh, that's pretty good. Oh yeah. Yeah. Nice. I was like, we be careful with that. That's, that was actually the first, first IPI liked was a double. Interesting. So that cut my teeth on craft beer and IPA, this was during the Hop Wars when, when Stone and everyone, you know, stone Brewery and everyone outta California was just, who could make the most bitter, the most over the top hockey like the IBU Wars, you know, it was IBU Wars inter International Bitterness units was. Signifies how the contrast bitter the beer is, right? So they were just trying to go higher and higher and make the most bitter thing and who could get more bitterness out of it. And it was kind of a joke because your palate can only taste so much bitterness anyways, right? It could be, it shuts down for it own purpose. It could be 90 IV or 5,000 and it's not gonna taste any more bitter. So it's a lot of just waste. But it came up during that time and it was like, man, this is stuff is taking the varnish off my teeth right now. And it wasn't that enjoyable. So it wasn't until the double IPA where that sweetness, it wasn't just all about bitterness, it was that little sweetness back into it. Yeah. Yeah. That it was like, okay, actually I like this one and, and now that, you know, fortunately that's changed. Everybody's brought it down and got it to a level that's more approachable. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. I feel like, yeah. IPAs now that are being produced are just, they're, they're so much more enjoy, enjoyable. I feel like we're, we're coming to this really great spot with IPAs where, uh, we understand what we're doing. People know what to do with hops now and how to treat them and, and so yeah, the product overall is just so much better. Yeah. Yeah, I would agree. Like it's mm-hmm. Become refined. Yeah. Yes. Not the wild wild West anymore, which I kind of enjoyed parts of the Wild, wild West, but there was some real. The shock value is not so great. Sometimes it's not as, yeah. Important to people. They want more drinkability out of what they're, they're enjoying. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And what's next for you guys? Are you like, uh, well, Fort Collins is stable, let's do a third location, or is that something that you think about ever? No. Um, I don't know. Josh and I, we, um, we, we just, I was trying to keep this going. Yeah. We we're focused on just, you know, continuing to make everything run smoothly. Yeah. Um, Josh and I love to travel, so our idea is more to get everybody where they need to be and happy. And then check out for if we can make a little money. Yeah. And have you guys just pretty much take care of it. Yeah. That's kind of the goal. It can, if it can fuel our travel a little bit, that's awesome. Yeah. Yeah. So, yeah. Yeah. And we gotta get that point. I mean, you know, we've learned we gotta invest in your people and Yeah. Make sure that they're good. Um. And you can't just be checked out on them. Yeah. Yeah. And so, you know, I mean, we're working step Yeah. The owner checked out. Next step now is like, it's hard. Yeah. I mean our next step now is just making sure that everyone is in a good place that works for us. They're happy. Yeah. We take care of them. They're comfortable enough where they don't need us day to day and, and, and we could actually take. You know, and travel a little bit. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, if we, you know, that's, that's a dream. Have you guys traveled much lately, or, uh, well, with this new location, probably not so much. Not in the last year since we opened the new location, but my sister is getting married in Italy, so for our one year anniversary for the Fort Collins location, we're having a big IPA festival. It's our hopper anniversary. Okay. Yep. Um, we're gonna have 20 plus IPAs, uh, most. Of them ours. But then a, a, a few guest guests tap too. Yeah, several guests actually probably half and half. Um, and then the next day we fly to Italy for boy Okay. For my sister's wedding and whatever devastation has left over. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. So that'll be our first big trip since we opened, but, um, yeah. That's awesome though. I was gonna say, it's just been a year, so I think that was my promise to you is to make sure this episode comes out before the hop anniversary. Yes. Yes. So what's the It's Saturday. It's uh, Saturday, April 26th. Okay. Um, it's, we, it'll be open to the public. You can walk in. Um, but we also have a VIP, uh, session that will kind of, uh, have its own hour to try everything and then just ticketed. Yeah. And then, um, after that it's four and eight ounces. Come in and try what you want. Little fun. Yeah. Kinda old school beer festival kind of thing. Yeah, yeah. A little bit. And yeah, it should be fun. It, I like it. Yeah. It's parking lot party a little bit too. Mm-hmm. Yep. Mm-hmm. I take it some DJs, uh, some food. It, it'll be fun. Awesome. Um, and then what a week? 10 days and two weeks. I love it. Two weeks. We're actually, finally, we're gonna go to Italy and then, um, Belgium and Germany. So be Oh, wow. Yeah. We'll be on Sardinia for the wedding. So it's a work trip. At least the part is Belgium. Belgium and Germany. Now that we, on a business, everything is a work trip. As long as Iris or the other Iris isn't listening right now. No. We're going to end at the, the Froing Fest. I think I'm saying that righting. I don't know. German Fest. It's a, it's the Spring Beer Fest in Munich. Oh yeah. So it's a, it's, it's miniature October Fest. So like October Fest, it's like a fourth of the size. I like it. Of Octoberfest. But you could still get 30, especially same thing, three ounce. Yeah. Yes. Boots in the big tent in the music and all that. So the whole thing, I like it. So that's mm-hmm. We haven't got to go to October Fest. It's a bucket list item for us, but we thought, oh, we gotta go for a wedding. It's a mini October fest. This is happening now. Anyway, so, yeah. So that'll be well easy into the, so yeah, of course. Like I said, it's a beer cation. Well, I, we do beer occasion. Well, I'm confident you'll come back to a sustainable operation and Uhhuh, maybe it'll even work better and give you more confidence. Oh yeah. Oh yeah. I mean, like I said, our team is so awesome. They, they'll have it. They, they're, they're great people. So I dig it. Yeah. Um, I am feeling like, uh, we might wanna jump back soon. Mm-hmm. But let's go ahead and have a short break.'cause me and Josh are both empty on our beer. Okay? Mm-hmm. Okay. Mm-hmm. Sounds good. And we're back. Uh, and, uh, so what I wanna do,'cause you, I think I got acquainted with you guys just after you opened mm-hmm. Probably way back in the day on Thais Court. Uh, Taurus. Yes. Taurus Court. Yes. Yes. Like, oh, let's, let's go back to like a, a year before. Mm-hmm. Uh, you opened verboten. Was it even an IDA yet or had you been planning it for years? It was, what was the situation? Yeah. We've been working on it for a couple years. Okay. Yeah. I, I think looking for the right location. Yeah. I mean, sounds crazy now, but we, uh. We were living in Fort Collins and we, we were looking all around, but specifically in Loveland.'cause we thought Fort Collins was oversaturated with breweries. They hadn't seen anything yet. It was probably going on 15 years ago now. Yeah, right. I'm like, how, why did we think that? Yeah. Yeah. Well, so he is, we're like, well, Loveland has less brewers. Breweries. And, um, there was a, a distiller across the street from the space, and he was a friend of ours and he's like, Hey, this building is available. You wanna come look at it? And was that Spring 44? Uh, no. When, when was that? Dancing Pines. Dancing Pines, okay. Yes. Long gone. Sold to, uh, family Jones. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Now in the building there. Mm-hmm. On tourist court. But yeah, it seemed like a, like a great kind of marriage to have us both in this little bit more industrial area. Maybe we'd both bring people in and so yeah, we were, we started thinking about it. He was obsessed with the beer. I just wanted to own my own business. Um, and so it. Was a good time. We, you know, we didn't have anything to prevent us. We didn't have kids, so Yeah. There wasn't, uh, that concern if you go broke. Well, I can just work long. Us and the dog. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, and what were you, what were you doing Josh? At the time? I did it for a small company. Um, I was a hardware guy, so, okay. I would fix broken hard drives and, you know, memory issues. And did they do that, rebuild computers for customers or you I, yeah. Did that for their company. I did that for this company. It was just, I mean, it was two of us. Gotcha. Two man shop. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. But you did it for other companies like, yeah, we did it for other companies. So kind of that, you know, five, uh, three to 15 employee range. Right, right. Where you would need help, you know, something breaks in-house, even a printer, you know, I was kind of the hardware guy. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And it was a great job. I really liked it. It was a leap. Um, I worked a lot from home. Um, I enjoyed the job. I could go out and, and. Play disc golf or golf, you know, you were kinda on call, take a lot, a lot of lunch. Yeah. On call, but after work nights. And I didn't mind that so much. And so it was, it was a nice, nice job. I, I liked, I liked that. And so even when this came up to do this, I was like, ah, man, I'm gonna trade like a job. I was working 30 ish hours and I'm gonna go to 60 to 80. Yeah. This is that, that was the hard leap I think, you know, are you really sure? Yeah. You know, and I was making decent money. So Was it your drive really? Like he was home brewing and you were like, I'm gonna go ahead and ride this Tony? Probably, yeah. I think if I hadn't been like, let's do it, let's go for it. He, yeah. He wouldn't, he'd have just stayed as a home brewer and I love beer enough. I was like, all right. Yeah. I mean, I can make beer. Mm-hmm. And it's gonna be, yeah. Yeah. It's gonna be a lot of fun. She's gonna work on the business part and the unfun stuff. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And what were you, what were you doing at the time? Um, I was, um, editor for NOCO Style magazine. Mm-hmm. Um, yeah. And I had been like a freelancer for them for years, then went on as editors, so, yeah. So that was your background mm-hmm. Was kind of writing content creation, things like that. Exactly. So the brand, this old. Uh, growler from literally probably 12 years ago, or 11 years ago or something, uh, has been my water bottle Yep. Here at the office for a long time. Yep. I remember when we had a, a couple that we started the brewery with, and I remember we, I would just send off lists of words and name possibilities and Oh, interesting. Yeah. And then, um, Otten was the one that everybody kinda gravitated towards and that we could build a story around. Oh, so you started with another couple at first? Yeah, we had another couple. Okay. They, they ironically had a young child, and so about a year and a half in, they realized that, hey, the work load was 60 hour weeks. It wasn't all fun. Yeah. It wasn't, it, it's, you didn't start making a bunch of money right away. No, they were, they talk to new business owners, new brewery owners, you know, all the time. Like, don't forget, this's still a business. Like you have to work hard at this. It's still, there's still money involved and brewing and there's a lot of fun to it, but there's a lot of things that aren't fun. Right. So you have to embrace. Both. Yeah. Yeah. Well, and like to be prepared for both, how much did it cost? Like you had a relatively affordable location. Yeah. Couple of, I mean, you know, things, I feel like we got into it for right around a hundred thousand at the time. Oh wow. So that was pretty low. But we started with a three barrel baby. Oh, gotcha. Brewing 90 gallons at a time, you know, so now we're at a 15 barrel, you know, brew house in Loveland and still have that three barrel. Yeah, yeah. We still have the three barrel. That's your experimental thing still to action. Yeah. So, but yeah, so it wasn't a huge, it wasn't a huge capital thing. Yeah. Capital investment. But it was a lot of time and energy. Sure. And I feel like that's the thing that trips, um, business owners up sometimes is, yeah. I mean, you can come up with capital, it's sometimes it's a pain, but you can come up with it. Yep. Um, but, you know, putting in the hours, that's a whole different animal. And I feel like that's sometimes is where we lose people. So you were. You stayed as editor for the style for a while too, right? Yeah. Yes. Like you were doing both? Yeah. We had an agreement with the other couple that Josh would be the first to go full-time and I would be the last to go full time. Oh, okay. Um,'cause you had a job kind of more Yeah, but we So a paying job. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But we ended up buying them out at about two and a half years in. Okay. And so when we bought them out, then I came on full-time to help. Yeah. But then, uh, you know, like throughout the years I've gone back to working full-time for my old job. Uh, you know, you do what the business needs and sometimes it needed me to go away if you need to hire somebody to do something. Well, yeah. If it didn't have the money for me. Yeah. Interesting. Yeah. Well, I think that's a great kind of tip of the hat toward the sacrifice that can be involved with launching a business. Mm-hmm. And even for running it for a while. Right? Yeah. I mean, you know, you look at businesses that have been there for a long time. You, I have a huge respect for'em because, you know, it's never stagnant. It never stays the same. And so you have to roll with the punches mm-hmm. Over and over again and. So what was your drive to to have your own business? Was it because you were in small business? I think because you grew up in a family like that. I think I grew up in a family like that. Okay. We had a family that was. Uh, you know, crazy. Never, never had a, a set schedule, always doing different things. If we went on a family vacation, we decided the day before to go. Right. Because, you know, my dad, things are kind of quiet right now. Let's go. Yeah. My dad had his own business, he had several businesses. So I think that, um, that drive to kind of drive my own ship too. Yeah. I really like to be able to be my own boss and Yeah. And so I always liked that. And I like the idea of building something. I mean, that's the thing that has kept us going is Josh's love of what he did and my love of watching it grow and seeing it be successful. Yeah. That is huge to me. That's the people, it's the numbers, it's all, it's the whole, that whole thing. Yeah. When it comes together and it's like important to people, that's pretty cool. Yeah. Mm-hmm. So. Did it catch on right away? Like No, I mean, you, it was a rough location to be honest. Yeah. It was a rough location. So when we, um, bought out our business partners, we also moved Oh. And at that time we moved to downtown. Yeah. So it was, we were shut down for five months. It was Well, and you had to find some capital Yeah. Both to buy them out and to build out this new place and stuff. Yes. Thank goodness for, uh, real estate. We sold a house and, and the proceeds, um, we were able to use to kinda help the business move and, yeah. Yeah. Uh, and then we, and when was this? This was, uh, we shut down in 2015 and reopened in, in 2016. Oh, wow. Yeah. So And so you had a period of time. Yeah. Did you have. Wholesale production going or anything at that time? Or you a brew bunch? We were contract brewing. Yeah. Um, snowbank. Snowbank now. Okay. Tim, which is now Tim is in that. Okay. Yep. Um, they were doing our contract brewing. I remember the, when they were doing some contract brewing for a while. I mean, we were barely hanging on there for a minute. Is that right? Yeah. And because it also, the industry was changing to where the tap room was your money maker. Right. You know, like, uh, wholesale that could supplement it, but really your money was made in the tap room and so, so you had to have a cool place. Yeah. And, and moving downtown, we kind of always felt like that would match us better anyways. We love the history, we love the people. We love to be around. Yeah. You know, the, the downtown, um, vibrancy. Yeah. Yeah. So, yeah. And so anyways moving there, it's, but it still, you know, it wasn't. Um, I wouldn't say it was really sustainable until, um, right about the, the pandemic. I think things changed a little bit. Like, I think after the pandemic downtown Loveland really activated in a way that it hadn't before. Yeah. And so people, instead of going, um, leaving town on the weekends to go to Fort Collins for dinner Hmm. They were staying in Loveland. Oh. And they were starting to really see some new businesses come in. Yeah. And, and so that I think is, I remember that about Loveland during the pandemic Yeah. Is there was a lot more kind of, not to, you know, insult Fort Collins or the Chamber here or whatever, but Loveland really bonded together at all in a much different way. Yeah. I, it just was, yeah. Mainly they, they got us heat, uh, they were. They paid our rent, Lance, the patio. Oh, really? Paid our rent for one year, one month. They paid our rent, um, through a And propane tanks. Yeah. And propane, like a, a stipend per month. And they just, they really worked hard and they also, they paid for everything outside all the patio space. Yeah. They also kept events going in downtown through the summer. Yeah. Yeah. So, you know, they had to be, of course, outdoors, but they kept out live music going. Yeah. Yeah. And I think it just meant so much to, uh, the community that Yeah. I, after that, uh, downtown Loven was a different animal. Yeah. Cool. Mm-hmm. Yeah. You know, I, I think, uh, we didn't, I mean, we saw a lot of efforts mm-hmm. And a lot of changes. Yeah. And, you know, tents where you could eat outside mm-hmm. And stuff like that in Fort Collins, but it wasn't the same kind of Yeah. We're all in this together kind of vibe, so, yeah. And then maybe it's,'cause um, Lovelands downtown is smaller. Yeah. So they could, they could do that. Yeah. More approachable. Yeah. Kinda. Yeah. Mm-hmm. That makes sense. Mm-hmm. Um. So when did you kind of come back into full-time? Uh, were you there working a little bit for a while or did you No. So from November, 2019 until, um, what was it, uh, two years ago in May, I was working full-time. Uh, for, uh, NOCO Style Magazine and part-time for Loveland, um, tap room. And, uh, did that for a minute. Then, uh, may, I was like, ah, I can't split my brain and my energy this way anymore. Yeah, too hard. So, yeah, so I, uh, left the magazine. I just freelance occasionally for them now, which is fun. Um, but I came back to Loveland and then about a year later, well less than a year later, were. Deciding to open a second location. Well, it was kind of like, well, I got, there's, yeah. There's enough of me. I got a little more of me now. Yeah, yeah. You know, where I was super spread thin as a one third time employee. And I think once you, once you start a business, you, you have to strive to start like three or four more. Right. So, so, you know, we were thinking a second location might be kind of cool, and I was like, and to be able to do something a little bit different. Yeah. That kind of, I don't know, pulls in some of my passions too. I do love food, Josh and I, um, we, food is a big part of our lives. Yeah. Yeah. So we love to cook. We love to go out to eat. Um, anyways, to be able to do these things was really exciting and Yeah. Fed your creativity a little bit more than just in a different way. Do, how do we Yeah. I feel like that's incrementally improve the level and locations. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think that's a lot. You know, the entrepreneur song Yeah. Is, is at some point an entrepreneur wants the next challenge. Yeah. Yeah. A little bit. Yeah. And, and maybe, maybe, you know, they're, whatever they're doing is always a challenge, but, um, yeah, you're always cursing yourself. Yeah. You're just in the process. So we just felt like this was like the next challenge. Mm-hmm. Like what's the next challenge after being in this, at that point when we started thinking about was 10 years or 10 year, and it's like, yeah, what's the next thing? What's, what's the next challenge for us? You know? Yeah. Fine dining. It was fine dining. Fine dining. Get that Michelin star before you were 50. Oh boy. Another, another restaurant. Maybe just restaurant only this time. Yeah. I kid, I kid and old though. That's a problem. It is. And the energy doesn't quite like where it was month. Yeah, yeah. We're both, uh, courting 50, so are you? Yes. Uhhuh. I just turned last summer, so, uh, yeah. So it is true that you don't quite like the, the idea of 60 hour weeks now. Yeah. Yeah. Like starting, you know, 38 is a lot different. Or 39 or whatever. It's 38 when the business, yeah. Yeah. It's, uh, yeah, like kind of the swan song of the, uh, 60 hour, week willingness kind of thing, right? Yeah, no. So let's, uh, let's do, um, like if your key employees that have been with you the longest mm-hmm. Um, if they were here in the studio and I asked them, what, what do you think really sets verboten apart? Like, why, why have you been here for so long? Oh yeah. Well, what would they say? I feel like they would say a, that the beer is really great. Yeah. And that they travel and they see that our product is really amazing. But that also it is, uh, a family endeavor. Like we, we never say that if we took a medal, it was because, um, so and so made one great beer. We always think like, we took that medal because all the things aligned. The team effort was there, the team was happy, and so the brewer was happy. And so we had the ability to focus in, in a really great way. In that moment in time, there's just never been a, a moment where, you know, everything was falling down around us and we still produced a, a medal winning beer. Yeah. It has always been that everybody was kind of in this really great space. You were in your groove kind of. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. And I would say they, they would say, and I've heard them say this, you know, we share the same passion mm-hmm. For the industry. Yeah. Um. And that they appreciate that we're around and that we're interested. Yeah. Yeah. And that we're, we're there. Yeah. Invested. Yes. Invested. Mm-hmm. You know, we're, we're, we're not just off in the scenes, you know, asking where the money is. Yeah. Driving your Mercedes around. Yeah. Yeah. Fancy trips in Europe and whatnot. Yeah. No, we still come back and, I mean, there's no job in, in either space that we wouldn't do if we were called in to do it. Yeah. Yeah. And I think that's means a lot to them too. It's part of the culture. Yeah. Mm-hmm. It is. I should work hard because Josh and Angie work hard. Yeah. And they care about people and so I should care about people. Yeah. Think that all those things, that's important. Lead by example. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Fair enough. Um, let's go to, uh, little Angie first. Oh, because I know Josh, you were b you were born and raised in Fort Collins. Is that true? Uhhuh. Okay, that's true. So I know that part already. Yeah.'cause we stumbled on it. And where's little Angie at? I come from West Virginia places. West Virginia? Yep. Interesting. Yep. Oh, it was a Kentucky Common. Was that Yeah. Unusual brand I was thinking, yeah. So West Virginia. That's West Virginia. That's a real west in the city. Girl of West Virginia or real country girl. Real country girl. Okay. Yeah. All right. Well, one of five. Um, but I think I mentioned it. My, my dad, he owned several businesses. He had wanderlust like you wouldn't believe. I think, you know, it was only my mom that kept us in one place. He was like, let's move to Belize and let's move to this place. I read about and build houses in China. Yeah. Yeah. When I was 16, he tried to get. Us to move to Estes Park, ironically. Oh. And start a business there. And, um, and what were these businesses, what was he in construction or retail or? Well, he, uh, he, uh, buys and sells used equipment. Mm-hmm. Um, he had a trucking business for a while. Um, and then he has, uh, he was gonna build log cabins for a while. He did a little bit and, yeah. Yeah. Uh, he has a short attention span. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Kind of, kind of a dreamer type a little bit. Yes, yes. And so I, I have a fair share of that in me. Yes. I, I love the idea of a new challenge. I can't sit still for very long. I get bored pretty easy. And you were one of five and where in the order? I was the second child. First girl. Okay. So, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So also, so the most responsible the whole time. Yes. Also the, the boss when, when they weren't around, so, yeah. Yeah. When I met her, it's the first time I went to the house. You turn on a road, dirt road, it's called Next Road. Mm-hmm. You drive a few miles back and then there's this log cabin on 35 acres in the woods in West Virginia. Mm-hmm. So give you an idea. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Country girl for sure. Like chickens and crit and stuff too, all that. But we also like wild children, we just wandered wherever we wanted. And with bare feet. Yeah. Like chasing raccoons. Mm-hmm. And whatever else mean, her older brother would, he'd go for days, he'd just go into the woods and go on for days and then, yeah. Interesting. But sometimes they'd get, so far you'd have to call home and say, come get me. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It was great though because we were all like creative in our own ways and For sure. And so, so I did always want to be this journalist that, uh, you know, was reporting on whatever, telling stories about a cool, interesting things around and stuff. Um, and so that was just something that stuck with me for a long time. And then I always wanted to own my own business and drive my own destiny, so, yeah. Yeah. I don't know. So what did that look like as you developed into a young lady? Like were you a good student? Were you, uh, yes. I, yep. I got a scholarship to go to West Virginia University. Okay. As a journalism major. Uh, did that, um, met outta school, uh, graduated. Then a couple years later, met Josh through mutual friends. Okay. When he was in Ohio. And so at the time I thought maybe I'd move to like Pittsburgh or another city. I, yeah. Yeah. I had a big desire to go to a city. Um, and then instead he lured me to Fort Collins. So, well, and we'll come back to him. It's easy why you were in Ohio, but I just have her visit once and you're like, do you wanna move to Colorado? Colorado? Yes. She said that way. So Josh, uh, gimme the circumstances of your, uh, youth, if you will. Yeah, grew up, uh, in Fort Collins, actually. LaPorte. Okay. Um, oh yeah. So, which is still kinda like the West Virginia of Northern Colorado. Northern Colorado. Yep. It's close. Love you LaPorte. I would move there if I had a chance. Even I'm on La Porte Avenue even, right? Oh yeah. His mom's still, it's Spanish for the port LA port. Yeah. Um, my mom still lives in the house that I grew up in. Oh, cool. Um, my dad died, you know, 20 years ago now, but he grew up in Wellington on a farm. Okay. And so he was, he was a farm boy at heart and I think he always hated, you know, living in, had to have some dumb job and living a house. Not have any chickens or goats or anything. Don't think. Oh, well we had chickens and goats and rabbits on the top, but not a real farm. Oh. You know. Oh, in the backyard. Pretty small house in LaPorte. Um. And so, yeah, I, you know, I was in the area, you know, a long time and had family here and middle child and, um, graduated high school, putter high school. Were you, uh, went to Front Range Good kid too and Yeah. Front range. Did not, didn't get a scholarship or anything. Yeah. No, no. I mean, I, I I was gonna be a musician, so Oh really? I mean, I still like still play a band, the guitar. Yeah. I was, I was gonna be a rock star and all the world. That's, that. That didn't happen, obviously. I, me Hess in plays guitar. Oh, I still do. But that's important. Yeah. Yeah. So I thought that was gonna be what I was gonna do and um, yeah, that didn't turn out so much, but, so when I realized that, that was So how hard did your push at it? Uh, I mean, pretty, we had a band. We tried, we a band real hard. Yeah. We tried hard. Jimmy quit. Exactly. Jodi got married. Yeah, that's exactly, yeah. Something like that. That, that song, that's exactly what happened. Um. So, yeah. So you went to Ohio and met this girl? Yeah. I went to Ohio and met, you know, for what it was like, well, like a summer, he drove a beat up, uh, Chave to Memphis? Yeah. Me and a buddy. Oh, okay. So this is part of the music dream still. Yeah. And Memphis was like, yeah, me and a buddy. Yeah. He played drums and I played guitar and sang and Okay. We drove his 67 Chevelle to Memphis. Um, and long story short, we ended up in Ohio. He had some family there, and we needed money and they had a job for us in the summer. Right. And so we worked for, for his family during the summer in Ohio. And we were on the other side of the river, of the Ohio River, on the Ohio side. And she was on the West Virginia side. The Ohio. I see. I see. Mm-hmm. So we met through friends. You see the shorty across the river? Yeah, yeah. Something like that. Something like that. Yeah. Something like that. Yeah. Yeah. She, she, she invited me to a hockey game, and then the rest is history. Mm-hmm. You're like, well, good. I don't really have a. Place to stay or anything sued. Yeah. He was like, oh, look how it was. I was just a meal ticket. Yeah. Him and I were, him and I were living in a room on his grandma's double wide trailer. That's where we were. So, and it was uphill from, from there. The first date scenario, it was glamorous and what was, it was uphill from there. What was alluring to this, uh, young, uh, wannabe musician. He's asking you that question. Yeah, yeah. Oh, what was alluring to me? Yeah. Yeah. Wow. I mean, this has been 20. Uh, 30 years ago. I think I know the answer. I'm sure you still remember it. Uh, I always tell people Josh could dance. Oh, he could dance. Interesting. I grew up in Colorado, so like a two step. I like it. Yeah. Yeah. I grew up in Colorado, you know, in the port, so, and he was funny. I'm from North Dakota. We have two step, the North Dakota, no step there. So I just You do a shi shimmy. Yeah, shimmy. More of a shimmy. My feet just stay in the same place and I, I just move other stuff. Well, that's cool. I wouldn't have guessed you to be a, a good two step Joshua Laport. Yeah. There's depths to Josh. Couldn't. Yeah. I don't doubt it. I don't doubt it, but yeah. LaPorte in the late eighties, early nineties, you had to two step, it was just a rules. What was the Country Bar? Swing Station, Sundance. Sance. Oh, sure. Oh, oh yeah. We went dancing at Sun. Okay. At the Sundance. So, so you meet up your, it's summer, you kind of decided the Memphis thing wasn't gonna work out, and then you like talked this girl and then move into mm-hmm. Fort Collins with you or something? Yeah, ish. We dated in Ohio for about a year. Then you got homesick and came home and drove a school bus. You bought a Schoolie? Yeah, yeah. Rode a school bus to get my CDL. Oh, I see, I see. He was, I get married and need a real job. Right, right. So I'm gonna Interesting. I like driving stuff and Yeah, running equipment. So I've got a CDL and that was the, the easiest way to get into that. I went on to drove school bus for a year, but then I drove, uh, Budweiser semi truck for Budweiser. Yeah. That was my first experience in the beer world up here. Yeah. Right after we were first married, I, I drove. Interesting. Drove, um. Yeah. And delivered Budweiser here in Northern Colorado. And what was your circumstance in life at this time, Angie? Were you graduated from college? Graduated college from, or you were dating this guy from college and then he like, yep. Moves away. Were you heartbroken? He moves away. Well, he moves away, then he comes back to visit and we get engaged. Oh. So then, then I made the, the decision to move here. I see. To Fort Collins. I brought along my little brother. Um, he, he moved with me. He was 18 at the time. Yeah. Um, and yeah, we just, uh, we drove, Josh flew out, we drove us across country. Yeah. Yeah. Um, and then my first job was for, um, well, was waitressing and then my. Uh, and then I got a freelance job for a little now, defunct newspaper, which is, uh, uh, the Bullhorn or Spec Forum? The C forum Forum. Forum. Okay. Yeah, I wasn't familiar with that one. Yeah. So that was, it was around for maybe two, three years. Okay. Um, and then I, ironically, I had, uh, started freelancing for NOCO Style way before I ever Wow. Um, became editor there. Yeah. Yeah. But yeah, so we, I freelanced for those two, um, and then waited tables, and then I worked for a So you were just kinda stringing it together with Oh, yeah. Some freelancing here. Mm-hmm. Some weight tables there, stuff like that. Uh, I worked for a interior plant company, so I watered people's plants. Mm. That was actually fun. I'm sure you're pretty good at that too. You're very friendly. Yeah. Yeah. Then I ran the company for him for a little while, so I Oh, wow. I did kind of move up in that. Um, so I guess I was kind of setting the stage for Yeah. Running a company later, but yeah. Yeah. Mm-hmm. I dig it. Yeah. Can you ever imagine yourself running more than one business? Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I would have a retail business. Okay. And a steak place and like a steakhouse. Yeah. Okay. I mean, you know, dig it. We talk about these things. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. So importing, exporting, I dunno, you know, it's hard to All the things Yeah. Contain brain, A slice off of your father. Significant measure. Yeah. I have to, I have to be the reel it in voice of reason sometimes. Yeah. Yeah. With what time will we do that? Josh is the voice of No. And then maybe, and then finally. Okay. So sometimes, yeah, sometimes I dig it, sometimes she convinces me. Makes a, makes a good argument. Yeah. Okay. Well I could, well, here you are, right? Like you could still be doing it hardware stuff for a small company. Yeah. I mean, you know, so goes working 30 hours a week and. Playing golf. Yeah. He could be doing that. But during the day, Frisbee golf, I don't miss that at all. You just need to get so good at your, your job that you don't have fires anymore. Yeah. And then you can kind of screw around after 2:00 PM every day. No, but seriously, he still works it in. Don't worry. Seriously. I would, I wouldn't trade it. I'm all joking aside, we trade it. That's cool. For that. I mean, yeah. I just love beer. It's been fun. It's a fun industry and we love it. I mean it's, you know, that I love, I didn't love it. It was easy for me. Yeah. In the end. But I didn't love it. But you know the saying, you do do what you love. You never work a day. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well that's sort of true. You still have to work. You still have to work. Yeah. To keep loving it. For sure. Keep loving. Yeah. So, um, if you guys were talking to somebody. Um, either or both. Mm-hmm. Uh, that's like an entrepreneurial spirit, like Yeah. Like you were Angie. Mm-hmm. Um, or maybe let's, let's talk to younger versions of yourself, but not you. Mm-hmm. You know, imagine those 17 or 20 or 24 year olds that are either itching to be an entrepreneur mm-hmm. And get into business or reluctant mm-hmm. To take on that kind of, uh, responsibility maybe, uh, like what would you say? And I'll start with you, Angie. Oh. I would say, um, know that it's gonna be hard work, uh, but if know what fulfills you, I guess. Mm-hmm. You know? Mm-hmm. If, if it's money that fulfills you. You gotta have the, you might want to go to Facebook and Exactly. Have corporate somewhere or something. You have to be super smart and Yeah. And come up with a rocket ship that just launches you, otherwise know what fulfills you. And if it's, you know, creating something and, um, building a, a home for 20 some employees that, yeah. That, uh, enjoy being around you and you enjoy being around them. If that, you know, is fulfilling to you, then go for it. But, you know, if you wanna flash in the pan, then you gotta be, if you're looking for the easy way. Yeah. Yeah. This isn't it. No. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Josh, what would you share with, uh, maybe that more, uh, risk averse spouse? Uh, I mean, have a vision. Agree on your vision and go for it. Mm-hmm. But don't, don't, and stay true to that vision. Yeah. I mean, have that stay in that tunnel. Of that vision, but be willing to make changes as you need. Yeah. Yeah. Um, you know, and I, I tell people, I've been on lots of seminars about, you know, with brewery, uh, wannabe owners, um, have that vision, but ultimately your customers, your clients are gonna make you change. Hmm. Be willing to change. Yeah. For them. You might have a vision of what that's gonna be, and you're gonna do this and you're gonna do that. Well stay within that framework, inside of that tunnel. Just widen that tunnel, um, and let your customers decide where that tunnel Yeah. Marketplace is goes Yeah. Mr. Market is, uh, don't, and be open to learning. Yeah. Be open to learning and, and take care of your people. Yeah. Yeah. You gotta take care of your people. I mean, hire good people. It doesn't always work out. Sometimes you miss Yeah. Sometimes you swing and you miss hard and you wanna call it anybody by naming that. Yeah. No, but, but it happens that, that's. Yeah. Everybody goes through that. It's, it's not unusual, um Yeah. To take care of the people that are taking care of you, you know, hire. I always tell people, I try to hire people that are smarter than me. That's not hard to do. Harder end. Yeah. It's way harder for her, easy for me. Um, hire people that are smarter than you and then take care of them. Yeah. And learn from them. I agree with that. Mm-hmm. Um, you saw me grab the fishbowl here. Yeah. Because it's time for the random questions and we didn't talk about it before you guys came in, but mm-hmm. Um, usually we do like a$25 gift card giveaway mm-hmm. Or something to a winner. Mm-hmm. And that person writes us with the answer to one of these off the wall questions. Mm-hmm. So I'm gonna say, let's do two questions each. We usually do three questions for one person, but Okay. I don't wanna leave us short. So, Josh, grab two balls out of that kit. I'll tell you the questions after. And Angie grab two good numbers. And who wants to start? Three? Three. How do you approach work life balance or integration or however you'd put it? Uh, my approach is that it's very important and in fact, we tell, you know, new hires all the time and, and we practice what we preach. Their work life balance is very important to us, and there are more, more important things to us than work. Um, there's definitely more important things to us than there is, you know, work and business and money and relationships are more important than that. Fair enough? Mm-hmm. Okay. Um, Angie, what number would you like to start with? 14. 14. What's the biggest mistake you've ever made in your business? Oh, God. That you're aware of. Um. I think sometimes because I am a person who trusts my gut and um, is, makes decisions, um, without a lot of hesitation. Yeah. Uh, sometimes I could have spent a little bit more time. Yeah. Um, looking at the details and doing the homework on it, so. Okay. Um, don't be as impulsive as I can be all the time. Would you like to add some color to that, Josh? No. No? Okay. Alright. That was kind of, but I'm gonna hold off going for honesty here. Josh, what's your other number? 21. 21. Oh. This is a fun one. What's your death row meal? Death row meal. Like you're getting executed at midnight tonight. Yeah, 6:00 PM rolls around. You can have as many courses, as many options, whatever you want, but it's happening. Well, yeah. Seven course meal, at least head to lettuce. 11. Yeah, head to lettuce. And a six pack. Not even a mixed six pack. We just gotta go straight. IPA mixed. Yeah. I'll just go, eh, mixed pack. Yeah. Six pack of anything. Yeah. So seven course meal. Uhhuh. All right. Head lettuce, six pack, you know, so it's not too light. So I can drink that whole six pack. And you might want to get a 12 pack. I mean, you got six hours to kill and you're gonna get killed at the other, I guess, so. I'm pretty sure six wouldn't be enough for me. Those are a 13 course meal there. Yes, we could do that. Okay, Angie? Uh, 25. 25. What's one thing on your bucket list that you're determined to accomplish? Oh. Well, um, I would like to, um, purchase a property in Italy and live there. Oh. At least, uh, semi-retire there eventually. So I, I like it. I'm pretty determined to drag Josh kicking and screaming for a few months at a time. Yep. Maybe in a brewery in Italy. Yeah, I would in a heartbeat. And he could fly back and forth easy on a, in a heartbeat. A little, uh, working farm where he puts around and makes beers and maybe dabbles in wine and. I, uh, it'll still be taken a little chicken or something. Yeah. Turn the barn into an Airbnb beer about wine, but I mean, the driving around in a golf cart sounds awesome. Yeah. So why Italy? Uh, I've heard, you know, you visiting there, but are you your family from there or you've been there before? I guess Italian by heritage. Okay. Um, my family, uh, there's five of us that are, are working on our dual citizenship, so Oh, wow. I'm hoping to have it, I wait, have a passport. Yeah. An Italian passport in the next year or so. Oh wow. So, um, and then, um, two of my siblings are relocating permanently to Italy, so. Wow. You know, so it feels like a place I could And what part of Italy, if I may? Um, one of them's in Genoa and the other one's in Sardinia. Okay. So not even in the same space, but Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Interesting. Um, my, uh, my wife and I are taking in our, uh. I think our 13th Exchange student in the fall. Ah, yeah. Mm-hmm. And it's the little sister of a young man we had with us like three years ago. Mm-hmm. Um, and they live in Ravenna? Oh yeah. Oh, Uhhuh just south of, uh, it's on like an hour south of, uh, what's the flooded town up there? V um, Venice. Venice. Venice. Oh yeah. They're like an hour south of Venice. Yes, yes, yes, yes. Okay. Ish. Yeah. So, uh, mm-hmm. Yeah. We're excited to go visit them someday. Yeah. But, uh, I feel like the Italian culture is the exact opposite of my nature, and so I, uh, yearn for it. Yeah. You know, very considered, very, um, easygoing. Not, yeah. You not rushing around all the time. It's interesting, you're, you're like an Appalachian girl a little bit almost in West Virginia. Mm-hmm. But you're Italian and there wasn't mm-hmm. That many Italians to move out there. Mm. And you're. Very likely Scotch iris, it seems like, uh, which is what the Appalachians German are? German Irish. German, Iris. Mm-hmm. Okay. Same difference kind of. Yeah. Pretty much. Yeah. But the, like, your, your, your area of origin is filled with people like Josh. Mm-hmm. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. So anyway, I digress. Yeah. So anyway, big picture observations. Mm-hmm. So let's do, um, let's do current events. Okay. Figure out what do you wanna do about current events? Oh, anything new in the world right now? Today is March 25, 26. Oh, gosh. Yeah. I mean, you know, in our business, the tariffs are concerned. Yeah, I wondered about that. I mean, yeah. You know, we're, we're gonna see where, which would be, that kind of goes what? Not hops, grain cans. Aluminum. Aluminum, aluminum. It can affect all of those things. I mean, there's, there's a considerable. Amount of grain that comes from Canada. Mm. Mm-hmm. Sure. Um, it could affect that, but it's metal. Mm-hmm. Yeah. I mean, there's a lot of metal in our industry. Aluminum, stainless. Yep. Um, a lot coming from overseas. So we'll see where that is. You know, I mean, we, I can take those balls back if you want. Yeah, sure. Time with the balls on camera, so, yeah. I mean, we, you know, there's, there's just, there's just metal. Yeah. Yeah. In industry, well, in any stainless of steel if you want to add onto your brew system or whatever, that's all mostly outsourced now. Mm-hmm. Yeah. So just kind of seeing where that is and, you know, a lot of small breweries don't have buying power. It's not like we can stock up for a year. Right, right. Um, I know I've heard some large breweries that are buying right now to stock up for at least six months. Interesting. Going just at least cans and other stuff. Yeah. Um, and, and, you know. For us, and we talk about a lot in our, our industry, like when do we price people out of beer? Yeah, yeah. Yeah. How high can a pint be? I feel like we're real close. I mean, how much It feels like it's getting closer, you know? Mm-hmm. You gotta pay 10,$12 for a pint of pilsner. Yeah. Probably not. Yeah. You know, price people out. And we're, we're right now at that edge of if things get more expensive, much more expensive, then we will be at that. Point where people are gonna go,$10 is too much for Yeah. A pilsner. Yeah. So that's, and that could affect it, you know, the, the, the and stuff. So in people's minds, at least, it's supposed to be a more affordable option than a glass of wine. Yes. Correct. And if that changes, then it's tough. Yeah. Yeah. Because then you figure out, you know, you can figure out the price of an ounce of, of mm-hmm. For sure. Per, for bourbon, per alcohol, whatever. Beer. Beer or whatever alcohol that is. And then you start going, yeah, I'm paying a lot per ounce. Can I afford to do this? Yeah. Yeah.'cause groceries are up and everything else is up. Mm-hmm. And so, you know, it's, uh, it, it's just kind of a wait and see for us as a small brewery. Fair enough. Were you guys, I guess you were not far from Detroit, so that was probably a normal thing when you first met there, Ohio and actually no. No. They don't do that there. No. Mm-hmm. No, I, in fact, I feel like I never had heard of it before until, um, the last maybe three or four years. Okay. So yeah. But it just seems kind of blow. You were traveling, saw, you're like, huh, this is an easy way to make pizza. Mm-hmm. Yeah. I mean, honestly with the equipment mm-hmm. It's, it's both delicious and you get to use those little quarter pans or whatever and it just like goes through the machine and it's just easy. And the kitchen that came with our space is not huge, so it really dictated what we could do with it. Yeah. No fryer, right? No fryer makes a difference. I think, uh, it's time to go into our closing segment, the Loco experience. Ah, uh, and that's the craziest experience of your life, either individual or together. Uh, I don't know if you wanna do a, do you have a shared crazy experience or would you like to do individual? We could have a contest of who's got the crazier, craziest experience. It's not opening a new business. It might be your craziest experience. Um, I dunno, say something a little more momentary or short term travel. I feel like our lives are pretty. Calm. Yeah. But, um, I don't know. We had a rental property that, um, a unfortunately a drunk person ran through our back fence. Okay. Into our kitchen. Kitchen and lodge their car into our kitchen. That was a crazy experience. I think they came through your back fence across your backyard and lodge the car into the kitchen in the middle of winter. Our renters had to call us in the middle of the night. Oh, dang. And say, Hey, um, there's a car in the kitchen. That was a crazy, pretty crazy experience. What about the, what, what was the one in Portugal? The where we. Did the sleds where the guys drove you down on the street sleds? We did through Toboggans traffic. Toboggans in Madeira. Okay. Madeira. That's right. Made Island. And you, you hop on and you have a, a guy that hops on with you. So it's Josh and I in the, in the toboggan. And him, he's behind and he's on the street. Us on the street. This is on snow or anything like, or ice or anything. And he's going stone, steep hills. Yes. Really shooting downhill at like this Tobo is like steel on on concrete. Yes. And they have these shoes that they wear out rather. Oh no shit. And they just put their feet down. Yeah. And they steer you through traffic and around corners. Blind. Corners down. But there's no way to really stop you to speak of No, there's no, no. With their feet put feet down. Yeah. Right. It will eventually stop, but you're not stopping quickly, right? Yeah. Oh, Uhuh interesting. And that was, I mean, you're probably doing what, 50 miles an hour? Oh yeah. Well it, it seemed like it, I'm sure 1000 miles per hour. I mean, I did, it's probably more like 15, but confront my mortality a little tiny foot. Angie doesn't feel like a, a closest thing to a near death experience, almost. Probably. I can't think of anything else that was that, like, was fun. I'm gonna die. It was fun, but it was fun. I loved it. If, uh, if we could take, um, kind of the, I don't know, maybe I'm just old and I don't get involved anymore, but it feels like the. You know, the brew fests and mm-hmm. All that kind of stuff was such a big deal culturally. Yeah. 10 years ago. Mm-hmm. And it just isn't so much anymore. It isn't as much anymore. You know, when you talked about current events, I was thinking about how, uh, drinking culture's changed Yeah. And how our Gen Zs don't drink as much and Yeah. Um, and you know, so that has had ramifications. Some of that, you know, crazy beer loving people that used to come out for anything. We've lost that a little bit. And I feel like also as a industry, we got a little tired, you know, like always making a new beer and a new style, and always doing these festivals. Here's, here's another festival, here's another festival, here's another festival. Yeah. Yeah. And I think, so Covid was a little bit of a reset. Yeah. And everybody was like, oh, this is hard sometimes. Right. And we're tired a little bit. And the, it's not clear how much benefit we get from Exactly. Slinging beers all weekend long, you know? Yeah. Yeah. And it's s the glamor has sometimes is. Flos it shine, giving the beer away and yeah. All that. And so, but I think, um, you know, we talk about this a lot. Um. Col, uh, Fort Collins in particular was just this amazing beer place. It was a Mecca sort. Yeah. Yes. And so the Napa of beer. Yeah. And so now, you know, it, it's a little bit our, our responsibility as these, um, smaller breweries to rebuild a little bit of that enthusiasm. Yeah. And so, you know, Josh is on a, on a panel that's working towards committee, a committee committee working towards building a, um, Fort Collins Beer Week. Um, oh good. And that is, that's lost. Yeah. And there's another committee that's, that's off of this group of breweries in Fort Collins working on a festival. Oh, really? Yeah. Okay. A unique festival. We used to have, there used to be a festival here in, in Fort Collins that we were included because I think strictly in Loveland we were included because they needed more breweries. There weren't enough back then. Well, you're part of the, to make it profitable. And what was that called? Was the Brewers Jam Brewery. Yeah. And it was a festival run by breweries. By breweries. And it was a unique festival. Oh yeah. Actually my food trailer was there. Yes. And I have a, remember that I have a Brewer's jamboree glass from verboten in my cupboard at home still. Yeah. Food was an important part of that. Yep. Um, beer festival. But yeah, so we're, we're working with other, um, brewery owners to like figure out Beer Collins and, uh, odell and New Belgium to figure out Right. You know, how to kind of bring some of that enthusiasm back. Yeah. Get people, you know, good. And the collaborative nature of it. Yeah. And, and let's get together and have fun and let's, you know, embrace the culture again. And reinvigorate it. Mm-hmm. In a time that it needs Yeah. Needs a little, needs a little, yeah. Uplifting. I would agree. I would agree. Mm-hmm. Well, um, maybe blessed in that pursuit. Mm-hmm. You know, of bringing more community together. That's always a a mm-hmm. Intentional thing. Do you have any questions for me? Oh goodness. After this, uh, little session here, how did we do? I think I did pretty good. But is your last meal, you seemed like you had a fun time. Death meal. Oh, my death meal. Oh, yeah. Hmm. I don't ask the questions or I just ask the questions around here. No, honestly, it would probably be like a, uh, nice hearty ribeye. Mm-hmm. Um, with a green salad with a bunch of mm-hmm. Good vegetables on it, you know, heavy on the avocado and the fresh garden tomatoes. Oh yeah. And uh, and I guess since I'm not as worried about getting fat anymore, I'd probably have a real nice fresh dinner roll, you know, fresh sourdough loaf. Yeah. Something like that. But I, I'm, mm-hmm. I'm pretty simple taste, you know? Yeah. Yeah. Gimme a chunk of cow and a chunk of salad and a little bit of bread. Sounds perfect. I like that too. Yeah, that sounds maybe my actual death meal and maybe, maybe like, uh, eight ounces of caviar that I wouldn't even enjoy or care about just to fuck the system a little bit. Yep. Uh, sorry. No, I get that screw, man. You're putting your death. We got to do, make you pay caviar tasting for the first Really? At a restaurant show was at a restaurant. At a restaurant. It was a Colorado restaurant show and I liked it. And he did not. No, no, it's not. I've tried it a couple little times, you know, I'm sure it wasn't the best stuff'cause I'm a pretty poor guy, but Yeah. I'm like, I just don't need little slippery things in my mind. Yeah. Like, I don't know. Yeah. I don't know. It was fun. Wasn't my jam. Well, thanks for being here. Thank you. Thank you for having us. Appreciate and uh, we'll see you next time and I'll see you down at the brewery here and there. Although, uh, Susan, Kurt will take me care of. Oh yeah. Otherwise, oh, they will. All right. Cheers you guys.