EXPERIENCE 238 | Voluntary Suffering for Personal Growth, Trust, Neuroplasticity, and Tasting the Infinity Bottle with Clint Jasperson, Founder of Purpose Driven Wealth

In this episode of The Loco Experience podcast, I reconnected with Clint Jasperson, the Founder of Purpose Driven Wealth with Thrivent Financial.  Clint was my guest on Episode 67 of The LoCo Experience - way back in June of 2022 - and it was great to have him back in the studio!  When I left the financial planning industry back in 2017, it was Clint and his team to whom I trusted my small book of business, he’s a natural at the craft and has worked through some very complex cases.  

We started by enjoying some Noah's Mill Bourbon and delved into tasting notes, appreciating its rich and traditional flavor.  Clint shared some recent reflections on the importance of voluntary (and involuntary) suffering for personal growth and how cultivating integrity and compassion can set humans apart from AI.  We also touched on Clint's use of therapeutic psychedelics like ketamine to enhance neuroplasticity and aid in trauma healing, and what is the good life that everyone is seeking - emphasizing the balance between provision, contentment, and enjoyment.

We also explored the general topic of trust, and especially the growing societal distrust of wealth - and the need for visionary leaders who can instill hope and integrity, especially in business, but also media, education, and government institutions.  In the latter portions of our conversation, Clint became the first to sample our Infinity bottle, a mix of all the distilled spirits that have been tasted on the show in recent months - roughly 2 parts tequila, 2 parts bourbon, and 1 part rye whisky!  Yum!  

Finally, Clint looks forward to future podcast appearances to dive deeper into specific topics, and we put in a shout-out - what do you want to know more about?  Clint is a philosopher and a futurist, and one of the smartest cats I know, so please enjoy, as I did, my most recent conversation with Clint Jasperson.

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Transcript

Speaker 9: 0:00

In this episode of the Loco Experience Podcast, I reconnected with Clint Jesperson, the founder of Purpose-Driven Wealth with Thrivent Financial. Clint was my guest on episode 67 of the Loco Experience way back in June of 2022, and it was great to have him back in the studio. When I left the financial planning industry back in 2017, it was Clint and his team, to whom I trusted my small book of business. He's a natural author craft and has worked through some very complex cases. Okay. We started by enjoying some Noah's Mill bourbon and delved into tasting notes, appreciating its rich and traditional flavor. Clint shared some recent reflections on the importance of voluntary and involuntary suffering for personal growth and how cultivating integrity and compassion can set humans apart from ai. We also touched on Clint's use of therapeutic psychedelics like ketamine to enhance neuroplasticity and aid and trauma healing, and what is the good life that everyone is seeking, emphasizing the balance between provision, contentment, and enjoyment. We also explored the general topic of trust, and especially the growing societal distrust of wealth and the need for visionary leaders who can instill hope and integrity, especially in business, but also media education and government. In the latter portions of the conversation, Clint became the first to sample our infinity bottle, a mix of all the distilled spirits that have been tasted on the show in recent months, roughly two parts tequila, two parts bourbon, and one part rye whiskey. Yum. Finally, Clint looks forward to potential future podcast appearances to dive deeper into specific topics, and we put in a shot out. What do you wanna know more about? Clint is a philosopher and a futurist, and one of the smartest cats I know. So please enjoy as I did my most recent conversation with Clint Jesperson.

Speaker 2: 2:20

Welcome back to the Loco Experience Podcast. I'm here with my friend Clint Jasperson. He is the founder of Purpose Driven Wealth with Thrivent Financial and also, um, the person to whom I transferred my clients to when I left the industry. Thank you Clint. Mm-hmm. Um, and we were drinking, uh, Noah's Mill Bourbon. It's delicious. It is delicious. Um, would you like to, uh, like share any, you can, you can just swing that thingy out. I told you. Oh, swing. Oh, when I'm, when I move. Okay. Got it. Yeah, you can just swing it out then. Just bring it back. Okay. Nice. I mean, I get it. I lot more been here a lot more than have Yeah, you're a little

Speaker: 3:00

bit, uh, more experienced. So we're gonna, we're gonna

Speaker 2: 3:02

do, so this, we learned recently a weed ram, uh, from Ryan Wallace. I was having time with him, actually. We were talking about weed rams. Um, and, uh, so like when you just do a little taster, just enough to get your tongue wet a few times, that's a, a weed ram of bourbon.

Speaker: 3:19

I've got a little bit more than a weed ram, but it's still just you do, I I

Speaker 2: 3:21

over pour you a tiny bit, but Yeah.

Speaker: 3:22

Just we'll say that was an accident on Kurt's behalf. Yeah. Even though it might have been, uh,

Speaker 2: 3:26

a little bit more intentional. Yeah. You know, loosened the tongue. Oh, and I was going to, oh, so tasting notes. Let's start with that. Tasting notes on the Noah's Mill. Thank you Ben Holtz, uh, for the birthday gift. This was a gift from Ben. Yeah. Thank you Ben. So look, really nice guy. I got to meet him. Local Tank didn't even buy this bottle. Usually local think tank buys the bottles, or some of our guests bring bottles for future guest reference. Hmm. Okay. Good to know you. You could've done that. I'll, I'll send you my thank you gift in the mail. Okay. Smells good. So what's it remind you of? Uh, I know you're not an avid bourbon drinker, but you said warming the first sip.

Speaker: 4:04

Yeah, I was warming. Um, there's something sweeter there. Maybe caramel, vanilla, I don't know. Something sweeter like those types of flavors. Yeah. I'm not great at this kind of thing. This

Speaker 2: 4:13

would be, I would say a very traditional bourbon, like, just kinda like the Odell IPA is like the classic IPA that everybody has'cause it tastes just like an IPAI spoke to. Same with this. It's delicious. I like it. I'm a fan. So before we get going, um, good job, Ben. Part of the reason why I'm no longer with private financial is this disclaimer as I understand from you staff. Welcome, welcome to the industry. Folks.

Speaker 3: 4:37

I need to read three paragraphs of legalese before we in, I got this outline of

Speaker 2: 4:40

our conversation that will be loosely followed, uh, but um, followed Peyton, if you're watching. Yeah. Certified financial Planner, board of Standards Center for Financial Planning Inc. Owns and licenses the certification Mark CCFP, certified Financial Planner and CFP that look like the same, uh, with clock design in the United States to Certified Financial Board of Standards, Inc. With which authorizes individuals who successfully complete the organization's initial and ongoing certifications requirements to use the certification. Marks Thrivent and its financial advisors and professionals do not provide legal, accounting or tax advice. Consult your attorney or tax professional, even though you're pretty smart about most of those things. Provide good tax education. Thrivent provides advice and guidance through its financial planning framework that generally includes a review and analysis of a client's financial situation. A client may choose to further their planning engagement with Thrivent through its dedicated planning services and investment advisory service that results in written recommendations for a fee. Thrivent is the marketing name for Thrivent Financial for Lutherans Insurance products listed by Thrivent, not available in all states. Securities and investment advisory services operate offered through Thrivent Investment Management, Inc. A registered investment advisor member FINRA Efan. Yeah, FINRA and SIPC and a subsidiary of thrivent thrivent.com/disclosures for more information. Thank you Kurt, for doing that. You're lovely for, uh, allowing me to, yeah. That's awesome. Awesome. So why don't you, you were on this podcast probably season two or so, right? Like it was

Speaker 3: 6:27

a ways in early-ish

Speaker: 6:29

days.

Speaker 2: 6:29

Yeah.

Speaker: 6:29

Not the first You had a more formal setup, like you were excited'cause you had headphones, I think. Yeah. It was awesome. It was awesome. And you and I could wax on for like four hours, so we actually kind of put an outline together and I, I don't even remember all the things we talked about. We went like three hours. Yeah. I can't see you. Very good with my reading glasses on.

Speaker 2: 6:46

Yeah. I took mine off. You can take yours off. Yep. Um, and um, so for people that didn't listen to that one mm-hmm. Purpose Driven Wealth, why don't you give us a, uh, encapsulation of. What you're doing, who your team is, um, where you're who, where you're serving. Mm. Okay. Yeah, we'll start with that just'cause people don't know you yet.'cause most people that listened back then don't listen anymore. Yeah, sure, sure. We've got new listeners and the old ones are gone.

Speaker: 7:14

Sorry. No, it's hopefully we still have so many ones I listen. Um, thanks for listening for those that are, um, okay. So Purpose-Driven Wealth. Uh, more than a decade ago, I left the benefits consulting business. I worked for a company called Cigna to start a financial services firm, uh, affiliated with Thrive Now named Purpose-Driven Wealth. We have two physical locations in, uh, one in Northern Colorado, one in Wyoming. Uh, and then we have a. Uh, sort of side arm of our organization where investment advisors affiliated with Thrivent, uh, pay us for various services, et cetera, where their clients get to experience some of the products, ander some of the resources that we've cultivated for a freight a fee. So that's like a little bit about our core business. So kinda

Speaker 2: 8:00

more sophisticated clients from some other less sophisticated and people like I was Yeah. Yeah. I would can send their, their clients to you. Yeah. Maybe. And share the share in the dough.

Speaker: 8:10

Yeah. I'd say what I'd say by that is like, um, sorry. No, it's okay. Thank you. Uh,

Speaker 2: 8:15

you're like thinking about how compliance can

Speaker: 8:17

make

Speaker 2: 8:17

sure they prove your response. Of course. No.

Speaker: 8:20

Uh, no, I mean, it's, uh, rather than sophistication. Um, I think sometimes people that are really good at earning trust aren't as skilled at maintaining trust. And what I mean by that is, um, they're really good at explaining things and earning that initial trust, but developing systems or, you know, processes, procedures, et cetera, and, or they might have lack of expertise in working with certain clientele so we can step in and, and help there.

Speaker 2: 8:42

You've kind of systematized enough to be beyond what a solopreneur. Yeah, that would be, yep. Representative can do.

Speaker: 8:49

Yep. Exactly. And so our team here, uh, you know, the, the core business is us serving clients, uh, trying to create clarity and confidence in their finances. And we've got a team of, you know, call it roughly 10 people, uh, and in various roles. But essentially we're just walking, we're trying to steward our client's trust, uh, in the context of finances, but that bleeds over to many aspects of their life. And we do it through a stewardship framework. So, you know, assuming that we're competent and other folks out there that do what we do are competent, one of the things that differentiates us is this framework of stewardship that we try to cultivate. Okay. So I think, you know, we get that. Personally, I get that theologically, but I think it's a universal principle and the lens that we tend to view money with and really anything we've been blessed with, including our time and our talent, is that we should look at that as through a stewardship framework. Yeah. Yeah. So, you know, well, and I've always used

Speaker 2: 9:45

that exactly in business. Like first and foremost as a business owner, you're a steward for your business. Mm-hmm. Whether you're coming from a faith background or not, you, you might wanna pay your people the most in the industry, but if you're not mm-hmm. Efficiently delivering your services to your clients enough yet mm-hmm. You might not be able to and still have a business, you know, you don't have to be a steward over that business.

Speaker: 10:08

Yeah. Yep. Absolutely. And I mean, I think, um, there's, there's layers to that, onion. So I think most people, if they work with a financial advisor or someone in the wealth management industry. They're used to having the context, the conversation around financial provision. You know, Hey, how much is enough? Run money, car analysis, whatever that is. Right.

Speaker 2: 10:28

Well, and plus the, the life insurance side. The disability side, right. That's all that stuff. Yeah. Thrivent's roots are there.

Speaker: 10:34

Yeah. Well, and even, even that, even those products are in some way framed around that context, right? Like one of the benefits of insurance in theory is that it's self completing. So if you take a high severity, low probability event, like a 30-year-old who's healthy passing away before 65, they might purchase something like term life insurance to offset that risk where there's a certain amount of money provided for them paying a, a insurance premium in the event that that happens. So that's a very common lens for anyone in our industry to talk through, and that's, that's, you should expect competency in that area and demand it, frankly, with the way the marketplace is. But then there's other layers to that, which is. We all know someone that's got more than enough money but isn't happy. So there's a contentment lens to this. And you could apply that even outside of money, right? Yeah. I mean it's, um, it's a, me Rogan talks

Speaker 2: 11:23

about that, like how billionaires are like the most miserable people he knows.

Speaker: 11:26

Yeah. I think you can have these, uh, subconscious or even conscious scripts that run in our head that work really well as software within a certain context to achieve a certain amount of, we'll call it chips on the table if, you know, money is that, and I don't mean to downplay for folks that don't have enough money, whatever that means for them, but there, there is the reality that in our human experience, most people, if you ask them how much is enough, the answer is always a little bit more. Yeah. No matter who you are, right? Yeah. Yeah. And so our clients who we work with, um, a lot of them are wise enough to know that that exists or they wanna work with someone that understands that that tension on the heart mass side. And we balance that by per, you know. Yes, considering provision, but contentment and also enjoyment and trying to blend that conversation together in a way that creates clarity and confidence on the decisions they need to make financially. And then we partner with them to implement that where it makes sense and help them work with other professionals where they need to as well. And a lot of business owners candidly, in this community, which is how we cross paths frequently aside. Yeah, for sure. From our personal relationship,

Speaker 2: 12:29

of course. Yeah. Well, and you've been through quite a number now, really a fairly complex sale and investing kind of transactions. Mm-hmm. Um, what, I guess are there some common denominators and why people choose you in those kind of situations?'cause the crazy thing is, compared to other financial services people, like mm-hmm. You may be directing 20, 30, 40% of their wealth into not investments with me. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. As part of the overall package. Mm-hmm. Which. Most, I mean, this is kind of weird to say, but most financial planners don't do that. They're like, blah, blah.

Speaker 4: 13:07

You know what I mean? Yeah. They

Speaker: 13:09

wanna, yeah. I don't get paid on that. How would I do that? Right. Yeah, a little bit. Well, I, I do think that there's a certain element of trust that is established with that, where, you know, um, in the disclosures earlier that the term, you know, dedicated planning, really what that means is someone's paying us a fee just for our advice. So when we work with clients in that capacity, it's really helpful for us to essentially design someone's, you know, be their financial architect. And like with business owners, you know, walking through that transaction, it's, it's common for a lot of business owners to own their own real estate. You know, there can be tax benefits associated with that. They've got a. They've gotta rent it anyways. You know, if you're a steel manufacturer or whatever, you've gotta have some amount of industrial space, right? And so between that and some of the, you know, tax advantages with that, you know, being able to finance it, use it to secure the business, et cetera, um, it's, it's quite app. It's very appealing to them to own, even just for the control sake if the numbers weren't appealing. And so that's helpful. But also, if they are in the process of transitioning outta the business and they're selling the business to a buyer that intends to, you know, continue to rent that, they'll oftentimes build that into the transaction itself where they say, Hey, you know, we're gonna sign a five year lease. And that's really great. At a lot of times it's very mathematically compelling. Uh, it's, it just makes sense to do that. And that generates a really healthy amount of income for the business owner. And so I think just by default and working with clientele that have, you know, more wealth than the average person, you're gonna, you're gonna come across things that are maybe nontraditional and, you know, some. There, there are plenty of times, um, especially in Northern Colorado where we'll run, you know, we will look at someone, say resident their re their rental, you know, and they'll be like, oh, okay, this is, this is printing off, you know, great money. It's such a good investment and they can't even tell you what the investment rate or return is on, right? And so sometimes it actually doesn't make sense, but we're willing to look at it and we have a reputation of being honest with people and even helping them understand how we came to the conclusion.'cause coming back to that, you know, principle of stewardship, I, I believe that it's really a moral obligation for people to be responsible for what they've been blessed with and, and try to, you know, time, talent and, you know, financial resource. And so, um. You know, they, I, I really want to empower them, you know, if they don't come to the same conclusion as we do with the, the appropriate understanding the facts. Either we misunderstood something or I haven't done a good enough job. Right. Our team hasn't good enough job giving'em the space to understand it. So we just take the time to do that. And, and the clients we work with have enough capacity where, you know, they are paying for that, but they, it just, the opportunity cost of not doing that is significant enough to warrant the time and, and the expertise. So

Speaker 2: 15:44

were you like a psychology major or something? Yeah, so, I thought so. Yeah. Well, because like mm-hmm. And, and the reason I asked that question is I partly, I remembered it, but also more than that, I, it's like you can do whatever you wanna do in life. Mm-hmm. Or in retirement or in legacy or whatever. What do you wanna do? Mm-hmm. Like that question is the harder question. And so some. That has to be a big part of your upfront process with people is like, what are the outcomes kind of that you're trying to achieve? What are your driving motivations, your principles, values? It's not just all about the math.

Speaker: 16:18

Yeah. I I, there's an element of this where it, it does, I think there's a certain, so one of our favorite clients to work with, we had a charity event a couple weeks ago and it was so funny'cause, um, the way he, the way he introduced me to a friend of his, and he is like, oh, you got, you really gotta sit down with Clint was, you know, yeah. Most financial advisors, all they do is talk to you about how much money they can make. And here's Clint, like trying to help me understand the purpose of what we're doing. And, you know, and this client's very faithful, you know, he is like, you know, what's God's purpose for the money and the HeartMath? You know, he used HeartMath. And on one hand I was like, I think it's, it's, I I was like, man, I I, we, I know we do a good job. Flat. Flat. Flattered. I'm flattered, but it's like. And, and this, this client, and I'm really good at the regular vest. This client is the, is the type of client where their profile, they could literally work with anyone. I mean, they, uh, and we've competed with the vest to earn their trust and maintain it. And the differentiator is still the fact that we're really to walk side by side with them and the responsibility they have for stewardship. And I just thought it was great that he was literally using the term heart mass. So anyway, it's, it's that stuff. And, um, you know, we, I, there's just an element of that that's super important because when you go through these major, what I've come to realize is that part of the value on top of all the competence and the products and the techniques and also other stuff, people like to spend, they like to call us in their best and their worst moments. Hmm. You know, there's just something about that, meaning I think if you've ever been in a situation where you've realized some of your goals and you've called people and they've not been happy for you, that hurts.

Speaker 4: 17:50

Hmm.

Speaker: 17:51

And I think, you know, you've heard, you've heard people talk about, you know, if you really want the test of a friendship, it isn't just there in your worst moment, but like, how do they support you your best?

Speaker 2: 17:59

And I don't, I don't think people, and banking, we used to say, uh, everybody's honest when times are good. Right, exactly. You know, and pays their loans back. Yeah. And so, you know, but it takes the real character to make it

Speaker: 18:10

work and figure out Yeah, absolutely. You know, and, um, there's a, a little different, but, well, I mean, it's, the principle's the same, which is like, that is really the core of relationship. And, and money's one of those things that, you know, um, like let's just say, let's just say you're 45 years old. You sell your company, you get a large check, right? Well, for just ease of example, you get a hundred million dollar check, right? So the mass easy, right. You objectively do not need to work anymore. Sure. For most people anyway. Sure. Right. Uh, and although you could

Speaker 2: 18:41

be a facilitator for Loco things

Speaker: 18:43

Yeah. You would. We would. I would love, I would love that. We could talk about it. Yeah. Yeah. We love our, our next level and Loco community. Keep going. Um, but with that, you know, like if you think about like you still have all this time. And all this talent that you've been blessed with, hopefully. Mm-hmm. Right? There's no like terminal illness. And so what are you gonna do with that? Yeah. Well, how do I like to spend my time and enjoy it most? Well, because I am the dad of two girls, you know, I like to be a father. There's that element, right? I have friendships, I have my, you know, my wife or family. Maybe I could be a

Speaker 2: 19:14

soccer coach even for one of those girls.'cause I'm not terrible at it. Yeah,

Speaker: 19:17

right. Exactly. All those things, right? And none of that necessarily changes in the way that you'd expect when you get a hundred million dollars paycheck. Right? But what's weird is like, okay, so now you don't have to work. So what are you gonna do if you don't want to? So now you've got 40 hours a week, but all your closest friends, your kids are in school during that period of time, right? So we have two girlfriends at

Speaker 3: 19:36

least, right? Yeah. Despite the fact of having a wife, actually, you know, it's pretty, I'm sorry, I'm teasing a little bit, but like that's what, like the Devil Idle hands. Oh, the devil's playground. There's. You know, um, especially when you got a hundred mil at the bank.

Speaker: 19:50

I think, I think, sorry. Well, this, it's a little

Speaker 5: 19:52

rude, but

Speaker: 19:52

No, no. I mean, I think, and this is, um, you know, I was actually talking with a team member of ours today about this because one of the things that I'm, so, I love working with our clients. I mean, you, um, many of them have, have been blessed with just a lot, a lot of financial resource, and they're still really great people. Yeah. And that's not to say that if you don't make mistakes in life, like you were just alluding to, you know, I'd call girlfriends if you're married, mistake, you know, at a minimum. Yes. Um, but I, I just, they usually have the humility to, to. Lean on people that can be coaches and stewards their trust to help them avoid the opportunity costs of those stake. That's part of how

Speaker 2: 20:34

they're finding you and an elsewise network

Speaker: 20:37

somehow. Yeah, and it like when you work with me, like, yes, you got our team and stuff, but because like brings like, like there's a lot of other people that we can resource you wanna appropriately or introduce you to et cetera, where there's just, in addition to all this stuff, technical competency, there's good character. So you end up, when you go through these life transitions, you just have a community of people around you all within the financial context and beyond that really just helps, helps manifest that. And I, as much as I'd love to say, you know, hey, you pull yourself up by your own bootstraps, I don't think anyone does anything alone. Um, you know, even when you feel like you're completely in isolation, in my opinion, you're standing on God shoulders even if you don't realize it. So, um, anyway, I, I just, I feel super grateful that we're in a position to do that and I love our clients.

Speaker 2: 21:21

Yeah. And you serve a, a whole bunch of kind of. Regular people like me. I do. Yeah.

Speaker: 21:27

That, uh, you know, uh, yeah, you haven't made your a hundred million dollars yet, but when you scale this loco think tank thing, we'll see. We'll see. I'm

Speaker 2: 21:34

not, uh, yeah. When Ben scales it, maybe I'll Right. Transfer to him and let him grow it. I, yeah. Um, no, no, we should, but I enjoy what we do and I think we're, and we'll scale some, but I'm never gonna have a hundred million at the pace I'm going.

Speaker: 21:47

Yeah, no, I didn't, I didn't mean to imply that we just work with people like that or et cetera, so.

Speaker 2: 21:51

Yeah. Yeah. Well, um, I wanna talk to a little bit about like, what moved you into this industry? Um, you, you said you were with a health program, Cigna. Mm-hmm. Like selling wholesale health and then like, did you leave kind of a guaranteed income job situation to become a minimally guaranteed income situation? Investment, dude.

Speaker: 22:18

Yeah. Well, it's, oh man. You, you ask great questions. And then what I love about our conversations is I can take it like 10 layers deep and like you'll ride with me. So, um, you know, I, I turned, you know, I, I, I'm in a new decade in my life. I turned 40 last year, and, um, there was a lot of life catalyst that was thrown at me, uh, some of which we've talked about at least high level. And what I've come to conclude is that some of the deepest challenges or deepest suffering, galvanize, like if you, if, if, if you're willing to partner with God in that process, or people around you or some combination thereof, there's just some incredible transformation that can occur. And oftentimes, you know, I'm fortunate that at least for arcs of my life, I've been able to see in hindsight the path that God put before me, the suffering that I experienced. You know, some voluntary, some involuntary. Yeah. You find the silver lining and the way that, that suffering has been able to be transformed in a way that helps other people. So the question you asked was, why do I do what I do? Or how did I get there when my, when I was young? Still young or young? Yeah. It depends on perspective. Young. Yeah.

Speaker 3: 23:30

Actually

Speaker: 23:30

young.

Speaker 3: 23:31

I still feel

Speaker 2: 23:31

young,

Speaker 3: 23:31

but I'm 51

Speaker: 23:32

young. Right,

Speaker 3: 23:33

right, exactly.

Speaker 2: 23:34

Congrats for only being 40. Yeah,

Speaker: 23:35

thanks brother. Um, you know, my dad passed away when, as a teenager. And you know, at the time, that was just the deepest loss I could have ever imagined. And, you know, on top of that, there was, you know, my parents had recently gotten a divorce and I, you know, there's the high school angst and sort of this parental rebellion that occurs and all this layer on top of that. But one of the things that I experienced as part of that, which was, which, uh, deep in the suffering we were going through is, you know, I come from very humble beginnings in the sense that I grew up in rural America. You know, I grew up in Wyoming, literally in a log cabin. You know, not far from here about, you know, 45 Happy Jack

Speaker 2: 24:12

resident.

Speaker: 24:13

Yeah. Off Happy Jack Road. And uh, you know, in that, in those communities your neighbors become your family, right? We didn't have any extended family nearby. Both my parents had extended family elsewhere and when my dad passed away, I remember, um, I wasn't sure that we ended up having to sell the house that he was living in'cause there wasn't enough financial resource to make it around. There wasn't life insurance or there was there Tiny, there was two times his. Teacher's salary and life insurance. Oh, so there's a little bit.

Speaker 3: 24:42

Yeah. Um, but it

Speaker: 24:43

wasn't, but it didn't

Speaker 3: 24:44

replace the absence of his income.

Speaker: 24:45

Oh no. Yeah. And he just had like his teacher's pension, which also wasn't a lot. And my mom at the time was an office. She had been an office manager at a dental practice. So there just, it was a very financially hard time. But before we realized that we were gonna have to go through this really, this, you know, financial challenge and, you know, kudos to my mom and God bless her.'cause I can only imagine what that would feel like now as a parent, I remember my neighbors being like, Hey, you know, your dad was a really smart guy, blah, blah, blah. He, there's this type of insurance that pays off your bills when you pass away. I'm sure he had that really smart guy. He, and, you know, he didn't have enough life insurance. Right. Sure. And, um, it's amazing the amount of people. It's funny

Speaker 2: 25:22

how you remember that

Speaker: 25:23

particular line almost. Yes. And I remember the day I realized it when I was sitting on the couch in our living room, in the house that I knew we were gonna have to sell. And this is, you know, at a teenager. 15 plus or minus 15. Okay. Yeah. Alright. So smart enough to know shit's going down. And I remember, I remember one of my early money memories, this is one of them. I will never be in this situation. Like, I don't care how hard I have to work, I will never be in this situation. And if you ask my mom why they didn't do some of these things that, you know, a, a person in my understanding be like, Hey, this is kind of basic stuff. What she will tell you is, Hey, no one ever talked to us about her. No one they, no, no one that we trusted. So, you know, my dad was a teacher, tried to operate with the heart of a teacher on or him that way. But that's a core reason as to why. And I think in the last episode can go back and reference that. I think we talked about this, but, you know, I thought I was gonna work with a lot of people like my dad and my mom growing up. Like that's kind of who I started off to serve. And one of the challenges with that was those people with no-show appointments and all those other kind of things and just didn't respect my time. You know, here I'm wanting to have deep on conversations and yet. I, you know, in my first year in the industry, I drove down to Denver, bought a piece of furniture off Craigslist. Didn't realize that the furniture I was buying was some, someone in the Cherry Creek neighborhood, which is a pretty wealthy neighborhood in Denver.

Speaker 3: 26:33

Right.

Speaker: 26:33

And before I leave this guy's like handing me my card being like, Hey, we gotta get together. I really wanna talk with you. It was just the weirdest thing. Interesting. Yeah. And so in a lot of ways, the, the depth of Catalyst, I don't think

Speaker 2: 26:44

we talked about that story. Uh, do you wanna talk about that story? Yeah. I mean it while we're here. Yeah, sure. Because that seems like a God moment'cause Absolutely. Yes. I remember joining Thrivent, you know, I've been a successful banker and this and that. Mm-hmm. Uh, tried my hand, the food trucking thing and whatever. And like I did okay the first year, not, but I didn't have like, just oopsies fell into a big investment account mm-hmm. Opportunity. Mm-hmm. Um, and this is how many months into your, mm,

Speaker: 27:13

let me think about this. When I met them. Uh, like maybe nine months in. Okay. So,

Speaker 2: 27:20

yeah,'cause well I was in it for about 24 months and I didn't have anything like that still happen, so Yeah. I mean it let's in the story it, well, so let's end the story.

Speaker: 27:26

Yeah. I, um, it was like my one time of golfing per year. I'd golf that morning. I was like covered in sweat. I was like, you know, and I let them know. Uh, at the time I really liked mid-century modern furniture. Still do, but like, I would scour Craigslist. I think now people hang out in Facebook marketplace, but I'm like, oh, here's this. I can, I still even know the chase. It was a lake, I think it's Lake Colby say how you pronounce it, but it was this mid-century modern furniture piece. Uh, that I'd really liked and I was like, oh, I'm gonna drive down and pick it up, you know, relatively inexpensively compared to what'd be new. Sure. And so I drove down there and picked it up and I'm like, Dr. I'm like, oh man, I, I feel kind of disheveled. I was like, like I said, I was covered in sunscreen and grass and that kind of stuff. And what ended up happening was the reason why this chase was being sold was because this gentleman's mom had just lost her, uh, husband, um, his, uh, not his father by blood, but you know, for all intents and purposes. Yeah. His father. Yeah. And he, we talked for like 45 minutes about a number of things, but he was really upset that when his mom's, there was just a lot of things to demonstrate that he didn't think his mom was being taken care of the right way. So, uh, by this person, they, his mom was actually like, close to relationally, but he's just like, you know, I don't feel like they're doing a good enough job. And to be honest, I think they did an okay job. Like, it wasn't like there's any unethical things or whatever, but just relationally, they really sucked at listening and they weren't doing what she wanted or what she needed. They were letting the math proceed That, you know, so a hypothetical example without disclosing any of her detail is, let's just say you have a conservative investor that even though they've got the mathematical capacity to be aggressive Sure. Like there's a balance of that where it's like, it's really their choice. Choice and, and if there's no downside to them being more conservative, okay, great. Right. Um, you know, and, and just making sure, you know Right. If I

Speaker 2: 29:19

want to have 3 million NCDs that you don't earn any commission on Sure. And I've got a million in an investment account that you get commission on, you kind of be satisfied with that. Yeah. And so what was

Speaker: 29:28

happening was you had this advisor that. Had, you know, decent investment strategy and whatever, um, you know, basically pushing, pushing, pushing his risk tolerance onto her. Yeah. And, um, all we did was, to be honest, all I did was listen. And then I helped them feel, listened to, and then I was like, well, I'm hearing what you guys have or these goals and you want to accomplish it with this framework, so maybe it would make sense for us to spend time understanding that. And he's like, begging me for a meeting and I'm like, this is the strangest thing ever. Like, I'm trying to call some of these people that look like me growing up and they like, don't have the time of day. They're overwhelmed, they're stressed, they don't wanna talk about their finances, right. They no show with you guy, me for a meeting. And he, and, and he's got the best assets, like, well, and here, and, well, here's the funny thing about this. So, at the time I didn't have like an electronic calendar to reference my calendar, otherwise I would've booked it right there and then, right. But instead I was like, Hey, you know, I don't have my calendar with me, but I'm probably booked two or three weeks out. And I said that because. I didn't want him, I didn't want to commit to an appointment to think work in demand. Yeah. Well, no, I, not even that. I wish I was smart enough to do that Instead. What? I, I said that,'cause I'm like, well, I know I don't have anything booked two to three weeks out because I didn't want accept a meeting. Right. And then have to rechange it. So I was like, yeah, I think this will work, but let me call you tomorrow to confirm. And he was, he, he was just like, no, you know, and he, he was like, we've got, you know,$7 million, all these kind of things. And I'm like, and I, I won't even say the person's name, but I was like, hypothetically, I just say his name was John. I was like, Hey John, I really do wanna help you. I'm not trying to like blow you off. I just, I genuinely wanna look on my calendar. Like, I promise you I'll call you back. Called him the next day. And it, it was the, it was the first of several signposts got along the way that maybe what he had intended me to do is slightly different from what I'd intended to do. To still bless. I think what happened is because of the, the wi, what I've since come to understand is. The suffering and life experience I had before that and this sort of deep emotional faith wisdom to the extent that there is, that I, I can somewhat bring that out in clients and help them. And I think there's a resonance there that people are attracted to. Yeah. And that would, that was only cultivated by some of the experience they've had with, you know.

Speaker 2: 31:34

Well, and honestly, a lot of the most successful people that I've met, uh, got that way because they had to march through some stuff. Mm-hmm. You know, it's, uh, there's, there's a few folks that do get their wealth the old fashioned way. They inherit it. Mm-hmm. Not everybody can do that. Mm-hmm. But more of it's created than it is inherited still, thank God in our country.

Speaker: 31:56

Amen. Yeah. And I think, um, God, I, there's so much on this topic because, you know, and I don't, I don't know if you want to go here yet or all during the podcast, but I, um, I've been thinking a lot about. What people want versus what they need in the arc of where we're at. Oh. Dump me

Speaker 2: 32:13

some of your bourbon. I want to get onto this next, next one here. No. Oh, dump in. Okay. Dump in. Yeah.'cause I, I over poured you. Okay. Thank you. And you can pour that seed in the spirit here. Okay. Oh yeah. I'm, you're more it out. Okay. Swing it out. Swing it it out. All it out. We can keep talking while you're doing to everything. Okay. Check it out. It's, so, we're good. Alright. This video part will be, people will be rewinding this to see us, just to see the movement successfully doing this. Yes. Okay. Um, um,

Speaker: 32:36

so I, I've been thinking about this a

Speaker 2: 32:37

lot because. Um, and the reason I'm doing this,'cause Clint's going for margaritas after this. Yeah. And, uh, I'm doing fam Yeah, we,

Speaker: 32:46

we do. I'm just a family dinner night on Friday nights. And so, um, usually that's having, you know, margarita happy hour chips and salsa'cause that's my wife's favorite kids, et cetera. Um, so I've been thinking a lot about, um. I'm taking it to the faith perspective.'cause my, my faith's been deep in over the last two years in ways that I just, it's hard to describe, but, Hmm. Whether

Speaker 2: 33:08

you're, go ahead. I was gonna say we didn't really, we haven't really caught up on things because frankly, the last time we had a long conversation mm-hmm. Your faith was in a little wily spot.

Speaker: 33:17

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I was just, I was in the depths of a lot of pain and suffering and I wouldn't say it was so much like wiggly, it was just like, what is going on? Yeah.

Speaker 2: 33:25

Not

Speaker: 33:26

less wiggly, but

Speaker 2: 33:26

less stable for

Speaker: 33:27

sure.

Speaker 2: 33:27

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I didn't, I was, I was not

Speaker: 33:29

stable. Yes. Like I was, I was emotionally in a lot of, a lot of things, which why

Speaker 2: 33:33

didn't wanna reschedule our podcast.

Speaker: 33:35

Yes, sir. Got it. Which is okay. No, it's, yeah, I needed, I hunkered down, which there's another topic. It's like how when, when you go through a business crisis or a life crisis, like, man, it is so difficult to make friends when you need them. If I could give one piece of advice to the business owners out there, like a comment, not always, but a lot of times I see them pour all this time and energy into. People overvalue the amount that like financial resources will help you when they undervalue the power of relational resources when you go through a crisis. And I would say that's true with spiritual capital as well. Yeah. Like I just, yeah. Yeah. I'm so thankful that, like, I had high, especially during CID it got highlighted to me just, I was like, man, I really want to be more intentional about this. The same, the same. And so I'm just super thankful for that. But, um, this idea of who Jesus was and, um, what is so captivating even to people that are not believers, just the story of Jesus, let's pretend it didn't happen. Why is that so compelling? And I think the first thing that people are attracted to by the idea of God is this feeling of being unconditionally loved, right? Mm-hmm. And I think that that is a, is a deep kind of human need and searching, and people want that. And I, I think we all do want that to some level. Hopefully we get a glimpse of that from our parents, though. They'd be fallible if you have, but you know, you might not. Right? Like people have mixed family experiences. I have some family of origin stuff that's makes that more complex. But you know, the reality is hopefully you can glimpse that. Uh, but god, even if you're completely alone and have no healthy framework, does offer that in theory or in practice. And I think what people are most missing today isn't that feeling of unconditional love. I, I think that is. But what I think is so powerful about Jesus is that he was willing to maintain upward aim irrespective of his circumstances. Hmm. And he did so voluntarily.

Speaker 6: 35:37

Hmm.

Speaker: 35:39

Yeah. Like, and, and here's the, here's the thing that I think people are drawn to. They want to feel what it's like to feel so compelled about something that they'd be willing to do that.

Speaker 2: 35:49

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well that's why the hero story is like the story in a way, right? Yeah. Um,

Speaker: 35:58

and I, and I think that as technology unfolds over the next decade, uh, in a world where things become, you know, more convenient, hopefully we have, you know, more abundance, right? Sure. Um, suffering, voluntary suffering, working out, you know, those kind of things. Hopefully they're good for you. Yeah, that's great. But like involuntary suffering through the catalyst of a relationship with a higher power. And or relationships with your fellow human beings. It's just, it is one of the best that I believe that it's, it's what we're all actually wanting more of. And I know that that seems maybe like a sadistic thing to state, but I think people really do that and they don't even know it.

Speaker 2: 36:40

All good art comes out of that and all good music just about and stuff. Mm-hmm. And so if AI can fix all of our problems, then we're well and truly screwed. Well, it it, it's gonna magnify

Speaker: 36:52

them. And so perhaps Well, I, I, yes and no. I think it's a catalyst. So, um, like the lack of problems will be a problem if we get, there's one of the things I was talking about a year ago is I was like, what happens when people start to like, fall in love with ais? Yeah. Like, they do what's happening? It is, it's, it's become more ladies especially. Well, so here's the thing, right? Like social media kind of highlighted this tendency, but I can basically go to the internet and, and get my opinion or my beliefs affirmed whether or not that's necessarily true, right?

Speaker 3: 37:23

Yeah.

Speaker: 37:23

And yet at the same time, like. Oh man, we're getting deep here. So if we think about the context of re let's talk romantic relationship, there's desire and then there's intimacy. Okay. Right. Desire is like projection based, persona based. It's it's surface level and it's, we all crave that. Right? And it's, and it's, we'll call it, uh, stable, meaning you kind of don't want to rock the boat, but intimacy, unconditional love is to share your woundedness, your fault, your fractures, and be loved anyways. Mm-hmm. And I think the paradox, the human experiences, we want both. Yeah. Now what do we see missing more in society? People feeling their desires or experiencing intimacy.

Speaker 2: 38:04

Yeah. Everybody feels their desires and, and I think that's not to shift it back to, yeah, our shared experience with loco think tank, but that's an intimate place. Very much so. Oh my gosh. Whether it's with your whole chapter in that setting or whether it's even just with a close friend or two that you're sharing your heart with because you've been trained a little bit how to do that.

Speaker: 38:26

Yeah. Well, and I am so thankful to you, Andrew, uh, shout out to Drew. He is not here, so our facilitator, super thankful to you because I didn't know. I've been a part of peer groups before, but I didn't, like, I knew how lonely it could feel to be a business owner in the successes and the failures. But the reality is, when you, this is why we also prefer to work in a team in our practice, but the, the wins feel sweeter and the failures suck less. And I, for a while, you were like, Hey, you should consider next level. Hey, you should consider next level. And I was like, I don't wanna let, I'm qualified, you know, imposter syndrome, whatever. And man, I just, uh, the, we do life together with these people and like some of them I've cultivated very deep friendships with and I'm super thankful for that. So thank you. That's awesome. Yeah. Yeah. Thank you.

Speaker 2: 39:18

Well, and, and I, and I hope that even the notion of being a vulnerable being, yeah. It has been cultivated by that, right? Oh, a hundred

Speaker: 39:27

percent. I mean, I, last year when I was going through some of the pain I was talking about, like, I didn't go in all the details, but there was a chapter update where I was like, Hey, this, this is a high level overview of what I'm going through. And I teared up, you know, and, and some of the people in the group that I was really close to teared up as well. And like, you know, it's not like these are these therapy groups, but the reality is. Here's what's strange about today's business owner environment. Um, you know, in the, in the last month, we, we were at a, a next, we were at a summit that you put together and a couple of the facilitators put together and one of the speakers talked about the Coldplay ceo, EO that was on Instagram around infidelity. HR gal too, right? And the HR gal. Yeah, exactly. Which, no, it's funny. No one really talks about her. Right. That's another thing. It's interesting. But, um, with the CEO, he's like, Hey, you know, the real reason why people were upset about this wasn't the infidelity, although I wish it was, you know, et cetera. He's like, but people don't seem to have much problem with, I think we should. It's actually the fact that they perceived that this business owner and sort of executive, and they were sort of breaking the rules.

Speaker 6: 40:25

Yeah.

Speaker: 40:25

And I think what's crazy about that. Well, for the, not for me, right, exactly. And is that true? Absolutely. You know, generationally, there's a lot of people our age and younger that have seen a lot of that. Hmm. I think in some ways we're seeing the end of that now, irrespective of politics. You've seen a lot of that brought to light. Um, and hopefully that's the sign of the potential to, to redo things or do things better. But there's a, there's a sentiment out there where, um, even if business owners are doing the right thing and they want to do their best, et cetera, they're making the right decision by their employees. They're still like this, Hey, they're there. There's reception. It's unhealthy and inaccurate. Oh dude,

Speaker 2: 41:01

did you read my blog today? I did not. That came up this morning. Mm. So in the Edelman Trust Index, oh, um, 65%, uh, say that the wealthy selfishness is the source of a lot of society's problems. Mm-hmm. Globally. Mm-hmm. And 40% agree that violent activism is necessary to change the way our society is structured. And of those 53% of 18 to 35 year olds. Yep. So we gotta eat the rich dude. It's time. Yeah. So this is, even though they create all the

Speaker: 41:36

jobs and stuff, well it's, I mean, some do, some don't. Right. Right. But, but here's the thing. Um, what I see that, and I really peel, peel the onion back. There's a lot of deep hurt there. There's a lot of broken trust there. And when you've experienced, well'cause they've been

Speaker 2: 41:50

stealing from these kids to fund wars mostly there's, you know, robbing their money of its purchasing power to, so we can screw around in Afghanistan and Iraq.

Speaker: 42:02

There's a lot of hurt and broken trust that's been experienced in so many contexts. And you know, another reason why I think that whether you have a faith belief or not an issue in our culture right now is people are defining themselves based off of their ideas and their ideology versus what virtues they aspire to reach for. Mm. And the problem with that is what happens when a better idea is proposed?

Speaker 2: 42:25

Yeah.

Speaker: 42:26

Okay. Then therefore I am wrong because I am my idea. My gosh, didn't we see this play out in the elections?

Speaker 2: 42:33

Well, can't we just declare what things are actually virtues? Right. Well, and

Speaker 3: 42:37

gather around them a little bit. Yeah. So absolutely. It

Speaker 2: 42:41

seems like most of the

Speaker: 42:42

things that are known as virtues are Well, and so it's one thing for me to state a virtue, but I, you know, going back to our conversation around suffering earlier, um, what are people willing to sacrifice for? Because the truth in what that pulse suggests is that there are some people that have had the rules bent for them, and I don't think it's the vast majority, but they've had the rules bent for them and they have broken the social contract.

Speaker 2: 43:11

Yeah.

Speaker: 43:11

Right.

Speaker 2: 43:12

So that's an issue. Yeah. Right. Well, and I mean, to some extent, and I don't wanna say it this way, but the, the social contract. Was invited to be broken for sure. Um, yeah. Like we just had another big time church shoot'em up by a trans person. Mm-hmm. Probably on a bunch of drugs that Pfizer makes a bunch of money on. It also coincidentally turns people into violent, angry people that shoot churches.

Speaker: 43:40

Yep.

Speaker 2: 43:41

Church schools, sorry. Well, and, and the reality,

Speaker: 43:43

so when we have,

Speaker 2: 43:46

um, but there, that's the person that's disengaged, right? They're like, I don't care what the cost to me is. This society is effed and it's time to go.

Speaker: 43:56

When people are scared and they're afraid and their hurt and trust has been broken, they, they adapt very simple algorithms to make information easier to discern because it's, it feels safer than applying nuance. Mm-hmm. And that is, as much as I'd love to pretend that I don't operate that way, every human being is wired that way. So we have to make a conscious choice, whether through our faith, through how we study things, to know, through our philosophy, through the ideas we generate to fight that temptation. And like, this is not a opinion, this, like scientifically, if I'm thrown into flight or flight or fight response, I, I literally don't have the emotional, intellectual, or spiritual capacity to relate to you as a human being. Hmm. And I think that with AI and all those other kind of things, the differentiator by default is if fas are able to do more, your primary value proposition is being a human being. Hmm.

Speaker 2: 44:56

Which means warts and all, by the way. Well, yeah. Really though, I mean, yeah. Even the, the fight or flight part or

Speaker 3: 45:01

whatever.

Speaker 2: 45:02

Yes. That seems to me like putting our biggest vulnerability in front almost. I mean, meditation, it's a of it's been trying to, it's a part of it.

Speaker: 45:09

I don't think we could turn that off away maybe at some point, but here's what I'm saying. Um. Okay. Yeah. When you're like, as a parent, it was a privilege to hold my kids when they're crying, when they can't do their best and choose to love them anyway. And that's maybe a glimpse of what it's like to be in relationship with my neighbor and feel that way. Right? Hmm. It's a gift to send it and it's a gift to receive it. And that is what people want more of. And the only way to get there is by cultivating your own capacity for suffering because it gives you the opportunity to empathize with people going through it and to see them for who they really are. And do you do that in part through voluntary suffering too? I think voluntary suffering can be a part of it. Um, I think the challenge with that is sometimes we can get on these like dopamine hits on sort of celebrating my voluntary suffering. Right, right. Hey, check out many CrossFit workouts I did. Or I'm grinding seven hours a week

Speaker 2: 46:03

for the hospital. Did you're looking trim by the way? Uh, not as thick as you were. You've kind of like you were. Getting tough for a while now you're more like getting skinny. That like long life kind of style thing or I, you know,

Speaker: 46:13

some of that, um, I, I had not intentional all of it. Well some of, um, I I, I'll give a business a free plug here'cause it's kind of funny. They were, I told'em they could use my photos and I found out the other day they were. Um, so I got my, I got some orthodontia work done with Invisalign through Owens Dental. Oh, okay. You know, um, I always thought you had nice teeth, or not. Owens Dental, Tim Timac orthodontics. Oh gosh, I'm so sorry. But Owens Dental ortho, do you guys, do you wanna

Speaker 3: 46:40

get me hooked up with Exactly, yeah,

Speaker: 46:42

you should throw, you should throw a sponsorship This. Show right. All the time. Yeah, exactly. You should see Kurt smile. It's not that good. What ended up happening is I got invis, I chipped my teeth a couple times'cause my teeth started to get crowded, got on Invisalign. And when you're on Invisalign, I got really hyper disciplined around brushing, not brush, you know, brushing and then wearing'em. And by the default, this is all related

Speaker 2: 47:02

to your brake muscles and stuff.

Speaker: 47:04

Well, I mean, I had built some of that base during COVID when I got into power lifting. Oh, right. And so then as you shed some of that, it makes it easier to show. Okay. And then once you have it, it's easier to maintain this. You know? And by the way, I, I used to be very overweight a long time ago. Yeah, yeah. Like 250 pounds, soft and fluffy. Shallow how fat suit style. So I got, this is not like I, well, and I'm saying this only because

Speaker 3: 47:27

whoever's listening, what a crazy thing though. Your,

Speaker 2: 47:28

your body's been through. Like, I've been pretty much like I was a little guy, if you remember. Mm-hmm. Maybe from our podcast, maybe not, but mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. I, and remember then, basically since like second year of college, I've been somewhere between 1 65 and 200. Sometimes up to 2 0 2, 2 0 4, but we don't talk about that. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Which is a, such a different journey. Yeah. And basically this build. Mm-hmm.

Speaker 3: 47:51

Like I've had some bigger full background at times,

Speaker 2: 47:54

you know, and stuff, but nothing major. But you've been like buff King now you're like skinny butt guy. And, uh, you, you used to be like the donut king back in college days.

Speaker: 48:05

Oh yeah. I was the guy, candidly, that knew I prided myself on how good of a time I could have. And I had the, I had the picture to prove it. I had gotten a perm just for the fun of it, with my hair down to my shoulders. And I, I literally looked, if anyone's seen the movie, shallow Howl, I looked like I was wearing the fat suit. I had like perm curls going on. Looked like a cherub, but an unattractive version of it. Where did we jump

Speaker 2: 48:26

off? I don't wanna lose, I don't know the track that we were just on. Um, oh, but I, let's jump

Speaker 3: 48:31

into this

Speaker 2: 48:31

because I've already taken a sip of this seed and spirit. High rye whiskey.

Speaker: 48:35

Yeah, it's delicious. And you've got the conversation flowing, my friend. I can see why you encourage me to have a bourbon. It's a lot

Speaker 2: 48:41

hotter. Oh yeah. Obviously it is actually than the Noah Mill. Um, but also like on the nose, you know, it, it's a probably a three year or a five year, maybe more than a five year. But it's a younger whiskey, you can tell. Mm-hmm. Yeah. But it's good. What, how

Speaker: 48:57

do you know it's younger?'cause I can sense that intuitively, but I don't know why. To me

Speaker 2: 49:01

it's the volatility usually. Ah, okay. Right. You can, it's like smelling gasoline when it's freshly poured or when it's been sitting in a bucket for a little while. It's a whole different experience. And to me that's,

Speaker: 49:15

yeah, like it's hotter off the nose with the alcohol stuff. Oh, that's, man, that's such a, I don't know. That's great. You're teaching me how to drink bread. Have training. I have training in this. Right. Uh, I just

Speaker 2: 49:25

know when I taste young whiskeys and local whiskeys and well, and it's

Speaker: 49:28

not as integrated. So, so now that you're saying that as I smell it, it's easier for me to. To experience it in the nose, but you're, it's like I smell alcohol. Then there's a layer of flavor. Mm-hmm. Like, whereas in the other one it was more integrated. Yeah. It was all kind of together. A hundred percent a stitch

Speaker 2: 49:41

fabric versus a piece of fabric one time. Yeah. And it's just that time of mellowing kind of thing. Nice. And like, I suspect that this is probably a better product or real close. Mm-hmm. Like it is got a real nice mm-hmm. Vibe to be for a, i I, I think it's for like a$45 bottle. Good. I don't know how much Ben spent on the Noah's mill. Mm-hmm. But it's young and not too expensive. Mm-hmm. Uh, seed and Spirit will be on the local experience podcast here in, I think October, mid, mid to late October. So, awesome. Um, I'm expecting, I told him actually, uh, that I expect. Them to arrange for transportation and us for, for us to kind of get drunk. I haven't been like proper drunk. Fair enough. During the podcast for like, a couple years, man. That's gonna be entertaining. Hopefully it's

Speaker: 50:27

entertaining for the audience out there.

Speaker 2: 50:29

Well, we'll try. Yeah, let's get back to what you were talking about, um, because it was kind of important. It was. You don't remember either.

Speaker: 50:37

Well, so, um, there's a number of things we've talked about. I know, but I think that there's a couple things that I, I emphasized on the most recent one was I think that being a human being is gonna be the voluntary suffering

Speaker 2: 50:51

and involuntary suffering. Mm-hmm. More so, like, when I think about the notion, so I was having a conversation with this, was it in my podcast? It might've been. Mm-hmm. Somebody that got like. Injured and had a big struggle and stuff. And I was like, you know, most of the bad things that have happened to me, I've basically done to myself.

Speaker 6: 51:16

Mm.

Speaker 2: 51:18

Um, and then she was like, well, no, actually, the whole staph infection thing and stuff was caused because I skied again like three weeks before the doctor told me I should. And that's what caused the mm-hmm. And I was like, oh, damn. You know? Mm-hmm. And sometimes pe things actually happen to you that you didn't. Due to yourself.

Speaker: 51:39

Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker 2: 51:40

Um, and that's the, in, to me, that's the involuntary suffering. Well, and sometimes in some ways. And so, but, but you can't go looking for involuntary suffering. That's just being dumb, isn't it? A little bit. Well, well, so,

Speaker: 51:50

so, okay. So I guess it depends on what your definition of suffering is, but Yeah. You know, let's, let's just say that most people think it, I think I'm picking up what if I'm very broad here. Like you could say that, like a very intense workout's, a form of suffering. I don't, I don't mean to underplay people that's voluntary. Voluntary come through, like intense trauma, but it is voluntary, right? And so I think that that's great. You know, I think that helps cultivate, you know, it can, it can help cultivate this, this internal sort of integrity. Um, but involuntary suffering, I mean, let's take an example where someone makes a decision that wrecks their life, but they do so in a way that kind of builds up over time, unconsciously, like taking addiction, um. You know, uh, it's easy maybe in hindsight to be like, oh, you know, this decision led to this decision. But when that person's living it in the moment, it's not how it feels that way. Sometimes it feels like they're making a decision that they don't know that they're making, or shame takes over. And I don't mean to negate the responsibility or the empowerment that comes with that. And at the same time, human relationship reminds us that, uh, like the most powerful relationship we have is remind us of our best versions of ourselves during the worst moments of our life. Okay? You know, and so that's why I think this human relationship element's so important because, you know, if, if I make a decision that wrecks my life or you know, someone makes a decision that wrecks my life, you know, a drunk driver that's driving that hits me and I know I'm paralyzed, right? Um, really challenging experience for both people. Um, both of them are going through to some, you know, the drunk driver, did they consciously make the choice to drive? You know, they still bear responsibility, but it wasn't, it wasn't real. There's an element of them that it was, it wasn't

Speaker 2: 53:34

pre hit of murder. Yeah. It wasn't premeditated.

Speaker: 53:37

I'm on this path and due to poor decisions in the past, et finally have to deal with the consequences of my decision. Yeah, yeah. In one of the worst possible ways. So how do you cope with that? And as human beings, the reality is that, like, that example there is, there's, there's no way to make that fair. There's no way to make it. Right. Yeah. Yeah. No, I think like in, in a way,

Speaker 2: 53:59

you have to march through whatever happens, no matter what. Mm-hmm. Kind of, so yeah. I, I mean like, like, well, I think about job obviously, right? Mm-hmm. Or even worse. What's the, oh, Hosea. Mm-hmm. Right? God's like, Hey, I'm going to. Allow you to endure this suffering. Mm-hmm. You know? Yeah. And hopefully, like, I mean, and now you know how

Speaker 3: 54:27

I feel, bitch. Yeah. Basically, that's the way I summarize Jose.

Speaker: 54:30

Yeah. What I'm, what I am, uh, what I'm trying to say about this is like in an experience where someone. Harms another when there's deep hurt and mistrust and there's no way to sort of make it Right. In a, the only way to spiritually transcend that is to, is to forgive. Yeah. And to move past it and like that is not a rational choice always. Right. Because

Speaker 2: 54:53

it's the willing endurant Yeah. Like, it's kind of like, I mean, you were, you were bragging on Jesus earlier mm-hmm. And the willing and dormant mm-hmm. Of something that didn't seem rational for him to take on. Sure. Having had no sin. Well, yeah. You know, well, it's, it's, I mean, I, um, not to compare anybody to Jesus, but, um, no, sure. But we, but, but he understands our journey in some ways. I think that's, yeah. I think,

Speaker: 55:18

I

Speaker 2: 55:19

think

Speaker: 55:19

when you have why that

Speaker 2: 55:19

story is

Speaker: 55:20

so

Speaker 2: 55:20

powerful,

Speaker: 55:21

it's an ideal, right? Like by default, I don't think we can fully understand it. But if I try to glimpse at that, right? Like I think we, um, we have the potential as human beings to develop the capacity to transcend. What you identified in that poll. And that's a symptom of an underlying problem, which is there's a lot of hurt, pain and mistrust out there. And no amount of pain, no amount of, no amount of like reparations are gonna make that Right if we don't have some sort of spiritual transcendence associated with it. Mm-hmm. And that requires in order for trust, if trust per the, the workshop or, you know, the business thing we did earlier this week Yeah, yeah. Is a combination of integrity, uh, competence and compassion. You can have someone that's, I think we've got a lot of competence out there Yeah. Is gonna help with that, but like the integrity piece and the compassion piece. Totally. Those are the muscles and suffering helps cultivate that. Yeah.

Speaker 2: 56:20

Yeah. Well, and this was a global survey. Mm-hmm. Right? And so mm-hmm. Like, you know, make America great again. Can't really happen if we make everybody else broke. Um. And I don't totally disagree with some of Trump stuff, and I don't really like the, uh, national Guard in not Washington, DC cities. Um, but we could drift to those questions later. Sure. Um, and all that to say like, we need a visionary, a set of visionary leaders for the world that say, this is what we're trying to put together a little bit.

Speaker 6: 57:03

Mm-hmm.

Speaker 2: 57:04

You know, where, where we can have mm-hmm. A place of trade, a place of peace, a place of betterment for all. It's gonna take a while because all the youth of these super poor nations are like. That's fucking Americans. Mm-hmm. Right. Or, and or let's go get some of theirs. And the Brits are struggling. The Scots are struggling, the Swedes are struggling, and like, why would you wanna stay in Syria anyway?

Speaker: 57:27

Yeah. Um, here, here's why. Here's why I know where to ripe time. And I, I, I tend to take an optimistic view on this because there's, there's times in history where we have technology converge with social strife, converge with like a spiritual potential for awakening. Hmm. And, um, what people loved about Obama, parts of him, whether he put in practice or not, just take his aeration. Yeah. And what people love about Trump put into practice or not, is they give them something to believe in and they cultivate hope. Yeah. Yeah. And no, no, I didn't personally experience that with Biden, but I did personally experience that with, with Obama. Obama, Obama. And. No, I personally, I don't think

Speaker 2: 58:09

anybody experienced it with Biden.

Speaker: 58:11

Right. Well, I mean, and I, that's okay. I mean, I'm just, I'm just saying that like, I'm the

Speaker 2: 58:15

podcast host. I'm not even,

Speaker: 58:16

even, I'm not even like claim, like talking, not policy, but like, there's a hunger for that, right? So what's crazy is like, like a real, someone that's looking at this objectively, it's like, well, what was, like, Obama's great at that, right? He's his classy statesman, et cetera. Different tactics than Trump, but like, he gave people something to believe in. Yeah. You know, uh, make America Great again represents this idea or this hope in something, right? You, you could argue all day long whether he's doing a good job or not. Like, I'm not even gonna get into that. But it's like there's this desire to reach for something greater than ourselves that makes me optimistic. If we can continue to strive towards having more integrity and more compassion for one another. And I think the only way to do that is to realize that there's some amount of suffering that's gonna be voluntary and involuntary that's necessary to cultivate that. And so to come back to the social strife we talked about earlier in this Edelman stuff, it's like the reality is like you could have people out there that have done the right things their whole life and there's more sacrifice ahead of them. That's just the reality. Um, and that's, that's like what being a human being is, right? Um, but there's also, you know, and you know, in the business owner context, you know, if you've got vast amounts of wealth, all that kind of stuff. And, um, there's also, you know, folks in our, I mean, man, people that are underage 30, I'm really concerned about just as a, as a group of people in our culture, relationship formation is down. Like all these things that we would say are signs of a healthy community cohort or a healthy cohort, well,

Speaker 2: 59:49

we need have babies at least. Mm-hmm. You know, and they don't even know how to talk to each other.

Speaker 3: 59:54

Yeah, well, the boys are all whacking off with the girls. I don't know what they're getting.

Speaker 2: 59:58

Robot boyfriends, basically emotional support vehicles.

Speaker: 1:00:02

But man, I, I'm super concerned for that group because, um, our team's very young. I'm the oldest person on our team, and what my experience in working with, you know, sort of the best and brightest in this age cohort is like, man, when, when there is a, when you are equally yoked with those folks, like you can accomplish some incredible things and they've really not been, their character has not been stewarded well to cultivate wisdom and discernment, which is also, ironically enough, whether it's right or wrong, that group is showing up in droves at religious institutions that want a black and white interpretation. Mm. Of what is truth. Yeah. Like they actually want truth, which is great. Right now you can argue all day long what that is. But the fact that we have an age cohort that's, that's, it's crazy. Right? Objectively struggling as much as they are, and there's honor for truth there. That's incredible. What that means is

Speaker 2: 1:00:55

they want to teach her in a, in an untruth world, why wouldn't people strive? Mm-hmm. To try to figure out what's true. Mm-hmm. Yeah. I mean, obviously, uh, even my blog that's, I've just been wrapping up about trust is partly about truth. Mm-hmm. What is true, what is not. Mm-hmm. Time to take a break. Sure. Let's do it. We're back. And I wanna start with, um, like what's the world becoming a little bit, because you're a farsighted guy, a little bit like I am, you're I think, a white type pa, but also more avidly red and stuff. And you were talking about kind of this, the thing that sets humans apart from AI is our humanness and stuff. And so, okay. Mm-hmm. And so what does the average person do with that?

Speaker: 1:02:37

Yeah.

Speaker 2: 1:02:38

You

Speaker: 1:02:38

know, well, I, I, I wish I knew, and I, I do have some thoughts on that. Uh, what I alluded to earlier was, I think one of the things that sets us apart is our fallibility. And that might not be the answer that people want, but it's true. And it's what's unique. How do we transcend that? And I don't mean we transcend in the sense that I never make mistakes and I function as a robot.'cause that's what the I, the AI is or has the potential to do. It's how do, how do we transcend that beyond the competency, but in our own, how do we, how do I refine my virtue in many contexts? You know, by, i, I cultivate integrity through suffering or through joy. Like, it doesn't just have to be suffering, but like, um, yeah. Yeah. I think that's, that's an interesting thing.

Speaker 2: 1:03:34

Well, so, and, and you know, there's, so it's a values driven thing.'cause AI doesn't have any values. Well, it, it

Speaker: 1:03:39

will though. I mean, so Isaac, uh, man, I, you know, I grab a glass of Yes. Um, you know, so he taught, uh, there's literature that he's written that kind of teases out some of these concepts. And I think it will, I think we'll have to decide, you know, sort of fundamentally what are, what are, what's the bedrock

Speaker 2: 1:03:57

of what are our fundamental human values so we can program that into. The AI kind of.

Speaker: 1:04:03

Yeah. And, and that's gonna be important. And I also think, like I don't, I don't, I don't know the technology well enough to know it's gonna come around the bend in like three years. What I do think is gonna happen is I can pay attention to like social fabrics. So, uh, so get connected. Yeah. Well, and, and just, uh, like people are falling in love with these technologies that are designed to tell them exactly what they think. Yes. Why wouldn't

Speaker 2: 1:04:36

I fall in love with somebody that thinks I'm awesome all the time? Yeah.

Speaker: 1:04:40

But, but just like how you don't want to, like always, but that's not real. No, I'm teasing. Well, no, but see that, so then it's like, well, okay, you know the Jordan Peterson, oh, what do you mean by real? Let's define by real. That's a meme out there night. Which kudos to that man for being so famous that he now has people making memes about him. But I think that. Like there's the temptation of that, like that dopamine rollercoaster, and at the same time you're like, but the dopamine doesn't have meaning. If I don't know how to transcend that with, you know, cultivating serotonin and oxytocin. Well, oxytocin, you experience more with intimacy and volatility and that, and the decision to know that, that, that you're choosing and that someone else is choosing you or that we're choosing our situation despite the circumstances. I'm thinking

Speaker 2: 1:05:26

about Romeo and Juliet right now. No, gosh. Like they do the scene when they fell in love. Right. Well see. Even that, that's not a logical course. Well, I don't Why would ai, ai would never write that story because it's such a, like a, unless it was prompted, I guess, properly.

Speaker: 1:05:42

Okay. So that's a great, so, okay, so a lot of people think that that is love. I would say that's romanticism and that could even, you know, if I'm exaggerating it, it's a limerence and there's a deep human need to, to pursue, I don't know what limerence is. Well, uh, infatuation. Yeah. Okay. In the most extreme, uh, lu. Sure. All those things. Right. So here's, here's the reality of our human experience. We have all those things, all those desires, et cetera. And we want to feel deeper than that, right? So it's like, well, it might feel good in the moment, just like, you know, me pounding a bot, like an entire bag of Oreos might feel really good in the moment. I also want to feel the long, the long term. Uh, goodness of eating a well-balanced meal.

Speaker 2: 1:06:26

Yeah.

Speaker: 1:06:27

Right. So there's times where like if you, if it's truly like the best expression of you, you're like, yeah, I wanna pound that box of Oreos. I don't think that's gonna be best for both people. But maybe the more, the more, um, the more reflect, are you calling Julietta box of Oreos? Yeah. Sorry. I think that dynamic. Yeah. And, and, and yet when people look through the lens of social media and these other things, these other social fabrics, they're perceiving that that's real. So there's gonna have to be this sort of suffering or sort of coping with what truth is. And you have to choose, here's the reality. You're gonna have to choose that because, so suffering is, it's the decision to choose to love anyway. It's the decision to choose sacrifice. And the only way you do that is by choosing it. Like you actually have to choose that. And you find beauty in the choice. Mm.

Speaker 2: 1:07:19

That's what, and we, the choice of sacrifice. Mm-hmm. Yeah. What was my blog title a while back? It was, uh, it was the Halloween blog a few years ago. It was, uh, trick or treat or sacrifice.

Speaker 6: 1:07:31

Mm-hmm.

Speaker 2: 1:07:31

You know, do you want just the treats?

Speaker 6: 1:07:33

Mm-hmm.

Speaker 2: 1:07:34

Do you want to just be the trick player or is there some sacrifice involved in building a healthy society? Mm-hmm. And ultimately that's the foundation of a healthy society.

Speaker: 1:07:44

Well, yeah. And I think that, like Jordan Peterson's on a tour right now describing this, he's got a book that's like pages and pages of this if you want to, you know, which one? Uh, his most recent one. I forget the title. Whatever the name is. Yeah. He'll tell you if you look him up. But here, here's kind of the simple, I'll try to give the overview and I'm not gonna do it full justice'cause I'm know Jordan Peterson. But essentially. If we start from the understanding that everything is a sacrifice, like every choice is a sacrifice.'cause by default, take this podcast, you know, you're choosing to listen to this versus choosing to listen to something else or do something else. Therefore, you're, you're choosing not to do that. That's a sacrifice. You're making a choice. Great. So if we understand that premise, then how do we cultivate, how do we cultivate better decision making or better sacrifices? And so the story of Canin enable highlights this, where we're gonna go through a phase where, so for those unfamiliar with Canin enable, essentially you have these two brothers, uh, one brother, um, named Kane is he ends up cultivating the spirit of resentment and he ends up murdering his own brother in the field. And just generations upon generations later, his, his, his lineage is responsible for creating. W weapons that are used for war. Not a great legacy, right? But the premise of how that started, the origin of that story is these are two brothers, and what's happening is Abel's experiencing providence in terms of his harvest. And Cain is not. And so Cain prays about it and he's like, God, you know what's going on? I'm doing all this, yada, yada, yada. Why aren't you blessing me, essentially? And God gives him a message that's unpalatable. He says, Hey, you're not given your best. You know, and you're not given your best, irrespective of knowing the outcome. So really it's a testament of faith. And like the reality is that the most meaningful parts in your life is where you choose to do your best anyway, despite not knowing what the result's gonna be. And that relates to entrepreneurship. There are these and, and there's, there's room for genuine doubt in faith. That's the truest expression of faith is choosing to believe, to choosing to do anyway. And I think a lot of people don't even fully understand that, but you've got this gentleman named Cain and the story in the Bible that does that. And the way he responds to that truth is he says, eh, you're not right. I'm gonna go. And he invites his brother into the field, he could have chosen to learn from him, and he murders him. And then here we go. And the reality is, instead of dealing with the reality that he actually wasn't, that spirit of resentment, festered, and then he betrayed everybody else around him and there was a legacy that wasn't great. Meanwhile, when Abel's telling us, you know, he's given the best cuts of meat, et cetera. Essentially what that highlights is, I'm willing to do my best regardless of the, of the outcome and, and my what. What we want to cultivate is an understanding that truth is like that is the only choice if we wanna live a life that's more like Abel's in the sense where it's like, I wanna finish my story, uh, and know that I didn't finish, just say out of self-interest like. Not resentful to have a light heart, to have a, a place of gratitude, which is really difficult to experience if I'm feeling resentment. Therefore, the only rational outcome is to choose to do my best, to sacrifice my best in the spirit of my virtue, irrespective of knowing the result. And when I can choose that voluntarily, like Jesus did, that's a life well lived. Now it's easy to say that on paper, hard to cultivate internally. I think that's gonna be brought to the forefront.

Speaker 2: 1:11:21

Did that come back to the answer of why you left a comfortable existence at Cigna? Exactly. It feels like it kind of does.

Speaker: 1:11:28

Yeah. I mean, I, I think in why, yeah, that's, we started the podcast that way. Maybe, we'll you didn't quite answer that question, but I didn't. No. Thanks for bringing me back. But, um, what happened was I was, I was essentially doing three people's jobs. I was achieving a decent amount of success there. And I, I what kind of was, I ended up getting put into a sales role and I landed a really large sales. I closed a big deal and at the time it was one of the bigger deals

Speaker 8: 1:11:57

with the wrong pipe.

Speaker: 1:11:58

Oh, wrong pipe. Wrong pipe. Um,

Speaker 8: 1:12:02

let's just pause it.

Speaker: 1:12:03

Yep.

Speaker 8: 1:12:04

Let's just, uh, sorry. I was That's

Speaker: 1:12:06

okay. Take your time. I got awkward

Speaker 8: 1:12:08

podcast host moment.

Speaker: 1:12:09

No, it's all good, man. Do you need some water? Do you want some of my water? It was water. Oh. Oh. It was the wrong po water.

Speaker 8: 1:12:17

It was just, yeah, it was just, it was just water. Okay. Yeah. I was just like wrong. I, I'll just squash this last bit down. I just could have missed.

Speaker: 1:12:28

That's the worst, man.

Speaker 2: 1:12:32

Hmm.

Speaker 5: 1:12:35

Excuse me.

Speaker 2: 1:12:37

I think I'm almost ready.

Speaker 5: 1:12:38

All good. Take your time man. Amen.

Speaker 2: 1:12:46

And it was, it was a line before that, almost, that was the like a little bit before the, uh, Cigna, um, or before the, uh, going through things that was kind of the call to like, to be drawn toward this thing or something. That's where I want to almost interrupt you and drag you into the signal thing, but it sounds like it was not actually that because it was much more of a you scrutiny screw you guys, well, here's what happened. Uh, but maybe you want to, it actually shift the way that it is relatable. It is relatable. So, well, I'm, we're not going again yet. Oh, okay. Um, so I'm gonna probably,'cause I broke off basically right at the start of the Cigna story. I started having struggles. Okay. So I'm just gonna bring us back there real quick. Okay. And then I'm gonna shift us before too long Okay. Because we got not too much time.

Speaker: 1:13:38

That's fine. Whatever you wanna do.

Speaker 2: 1:13:47

Okay, here we go. Alright. And it seems like that, uh, kind of place in time situation is, is what ultimately brings us back to that. Why'd you leave a good job and secure job at Cigna and become part of Thrivent?

Speaker: 1:14:01

Yeah, so I, I think, um, if the spirit of the whole can enable thing is to, like, you want to be able to give your best, and that means you, you want, you want to give your absolute best, irrespective of knowing what the outcome is. What was happening in that environment is, there was a transition where I kind of got moved around with a corporate restructure and I really didn't like who I was working for as a leader to the extent where I was having panic attacks. And there's lots of reasons behind that. Um, but I just wasn't feeling good and I didn't even know that at the time. I was just so focused on doing whatever's necessary to hit the mark. But, um. One of my, the crux of why I left and, and'cause I was agonizing over it and whether I should do it or not, was if I look back, I will always regret not knowing if I could have made it.

Speaker 4: 1:14:56

Hmm.

Speaker: 1:14:57

You know, I'll always regret that. Were they

Speaker 2: 1:14:59

calling on you? Other

Speaker: 1:15:01

opportunities and, I mean, I had other, I had other, I had other opportunities. So you were kind of

Speaker 2: 1:15:04

annoyed with your boss ever since he started there? Kind. It was, I'll say

Speaker: 1:15:07

this, it was more than annoyance. I, I think, yeah. In, in, in the clinical sense. He did not have a conscience. Oh boy. Meaning, like, there was some, like I, and I mean this legit, you know, there's lots of stuff like integrity

Speaker 2: 1:15:20

wasn't one of his high marks, like

Speaker: 1:15:21

Machiavellian. Oh damn. Like I, I mean, and, and he, he's, he was fired like two years. Like this would come like just,

Speaker 2: 1:15:26

not just ethically unaware, but like almost cruel.

Speaker: 1:15:29

Like I, I mean this in the clinical sense that I don't believe he had a conscience and he would use people like legit narcissistic personality disorder. And I say this like we all narcissistic traits. He had an issue. Um, everybody else, I think fondly of there, despite their faults, um, and we all have them that said, so, so what, what ultimately kind of was the thing that tipped me over was if I try this and I fail, at least I'll know. Like I can always come back to this. Yeah, yeah. And so I, I, because you knew you were gonna go into some suffering there, there's a little bit, there's voluntary suffering a little bit because every first suffering happens regardless. But it's like you want to, you want to try to reach for the highest expression of what you're, you know. And in this instance I was like, man, there was a lot of stuff going on that I didn't like, I thought was unethical. Just with this one Perth. I was like, man, I've always believed that it was possible to serve other people, do business, et cetera, and do it within a framework that I will say better exemplified my virtues. And like, I was being told that that wasn't the case. And I was like, man, I feel like I'm gonna, if I stay here, I'm gonna have to compromise. I don't want to do that. I would rather not compromise, go and fail, and then know actually I was wrong. Yeah. And then I can come back to this and that was a, like, that was a key decision point for me. And so I was like, you know, I'd, I'd rather go and try and see if it's possible to do business a certain way. And if I fail, no problem. Um, but I'll always regret not trying.

Speaker 2: 1:16:57

Yeah, I dig it. Um, so for listeners out there that are digging this conversation, by the way, uh, Clint is gonna come on about once a quarter ish and we're gonna try to do some more topical focus instead of just a rambling reintroduction of

Speaker: 1:17:10

this is relationship development right here. This here we're trying to see like, hey, uh, you get to know us, et cetera. That's why we drank so much bourbon. Oh, I guess, yeah. And,

Speaker 2: 1:17:18

uh, part of that relationship development is you're gonna be the first guest to, uh, taste the Infinity bottle. Oh gosh. Uh, I offered it to Roxy Tins, uh, yester a couple days ago and she politely declined me. And, uh, it wasn't going yet before the other one. So you can just set that bottle or that glass right there. It'll be a, not a half a wee Dr. A half a, a half a weed. Okay. Half a weed Dr. In this case. So I, I, this is like two parts bourbon, one part high rye whiskey, maybe some Irish whiskey and some tequila. Oh my gosh. Um, so everything that goes through the podcast, uh, studio, we're just gonna pour like one shot into the infinity bottle and yeah, I think it probably will stay full enough. I don't know if I need to go two shots, we'll increase the measure, but I preloaded it here. So now tasting notes on the Infinity bourbon. Ooh, it's a little hot.

Speaker: 1:18:30

I mean, that's not terrible. It's surpris of the good. That's weird. God, I was, I was prepared for the worst here. Um, it does smell hot, that's for sure. I was like, oh boy.

Speaker 2: 1:18:40

Um, and it's hard to. Like, it's clearly not bourbon and clearly not tequila. Mm-hmm. It's, it's ambiguous. It's pat. Sorry. That's probably not funny anymore. Well, there's that,

Speaker: 1:18:53

there's, there is, there's that like, like subtle anejo flavor, like towards the end. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, ah, that's interesting. Hmm. If I was to chart that out, it would be like all over the place. There's, there's, there's vol, there's integrated volatility with this one. Yeah. It's interesting. I'll say that.

Speaker 2: 1:19:14

Yeah. So something we've added to the podcast since last time you were on is the random ask question, ping pong ball challenge.

Speaker 6: 1:19:22

Mm-hmm.

Speaker 2: 1:19:25

Oh, cool. So you're

Speaker: 1:19:26

gonna draw three of these, by the way, for the listeners listening, I, I'm excited for your hot ones

Speaker 2: 1:19:31

version. Oh yeah, it's gonna, I'm pumping up about that coming up. I should do a commercial about that. Yeah. So we're. All seven of the Fort Collins mayoral candidates are going to be coming into the studio for bonus episodes, uh, and in partnership with, uh, old Town Spice Shop and Matador. Um, and I love Matador, by the way. Story path. Uh, we're going to do a series of hot one style hot Saucey chicken nugs. We're not, we're gonna, we're doing hot nugs, uh, is what we're doing instead of hot ones. Nice. Just so we avoid copyright infringement. Oh gosh. Stuff like that. Lawsuits, all that. Sure. Uh, so hot Nugs plus Paul's already got chicken and nugget form. Nice. And we don't have to deal with wings and screwing around. This is an

Speaker: 1:20:15

aside. Do you have a relationship with him? With Matador? Yeah, a little bit. Okay. Yeah, I've been, not much, their, their burritos are great. I don't, I don't have like a relationship with the owner or whatever, but like I've gotten to know some of their staff when I'm in there. Okay. Semi regularly. Yeah. Yeah. The character of the staff, people that are on the front line. There's some of the stories I've heard. S not like normal service professionals. Okay. Uh, there's, I, I just gotta say, shout out to Matador. The food's great and like the people that I've interacted with there, especially in those morning shifts, are like very unique and character based human beings. Like I've heard some really incredible things there, so that's cool. So I'm grateful for that.

Speaker 2: 1:20:52

I used to work across the street, kitty corner. Mm. And we'd go there every Wednesday and regularly beyond that. Mm. Just about. Um, and so it's been 11 years. Sorry Paul. You're just too far away now. Sure. Uh, but that doesn't surprise me at all.'cause he's a character and a, a great business leader. Mm. So, um, the thing here now is, and, uh, Clint's going to, um. What? He's gonna give you a$25 gift card to your favorite restaurant. Sure. If you, uh, uh, whatever. Sure. Yeah, sure. Why not? He'll buy you lunch actually. Yeah. I'll buy you lunch. He'll give you a free, like, uh, 30 minute financial consult. If you, uh, we can

Speaker: 1:21:35

sit down and have a cup of coffee. I'll try to help you out. He's available to you? Yeah.

Speaker 2: 1:21:39

Pick three.

Speaker: 1:21:42

Okay. I got three.

Speaker 2: 1:21:44

Whoop. Okay. Oh, I got, can you find it? Okay. It didn't get away. You can give those to me in any order. And then the, the, what I decide is that answer that somebody's gotta listen to the podcast is what's gonna win them. The, uh, lunch on Clint. Perfect.

Speaker 3: 1:22:01

And wisdom.

Speaker: 1:22:02

Let's do a cup of coffee at Harbinger. Okay. I'm there

Speaker 3: 1:22:05

most days between seven and eight. Um, I like

Speaker: 1:22:07

it on South side, I guess. Uh, near Council Tree. Yeah. Uh, 10, 11 and seven. 10.

Speaker 2: 1:22:13

11 and seven. 10. What's a hobby or skill you've always wanted to pick up but haven't yet?

Speaker: 1:22:22

Uh, I admire it. I don't know that I, if I wanted to pick it up, I would probably dedicate more time right now, but, uh, my wife's got a green thumb and I really admire her ability to grow plants. Like, it's just not like she maintains them consistently, not perfectly, et cetera, but I think that like people that can do that and sort of cultivate and nourish something that way, grow a garden, et cetera, I admire it. I think it's fantastic. Well,

Speaker 2: 1:22:48

thank you. Mm-hmm. I grew a tomato this year. That was like 20 ounces, I'm pretty sure. Nice. Yeah. Uh, although my tomato garden is kind of a mess. I, my pumpkins got all into it. It's, it, yeah. Anyway. Awesome. It's a long story. Mm-hmm. That was 10, 11. Yeah. 11. Yep. 10, 11. Mm-hmm. 11. If you could time travel, would you visit the past or future? What period and why,

Speaker: 1:23:19

and you can never come back. Well, I'm just, oh, I can't come back. Oh, that changes my answer. We didn't say that before, but, okay. Okay. Well, here's my initial answer. I'm just gonna go with what I thought. Sure. So my first thought was, I'd love to see my girls 20 years from now and, and thank them for being my kids and say, are, invest

Speaker 2: 1:23:40

in this? Nope. Nope. Just kidding. Nope. Honestly, it would,

Speaker: 1:23:43

it would be, are there any places where you think I could have been a better father that you remember? And I would love

Speaker 2: 1:23:49

Oh, and then you're gonna come back and like, and do

Speaker: 1:23:51

that. Fix that. Yep. That feels like, would

Speaker 5: 1:23:53

they know though?

Speaker: 1:23:55

I don't know. I don't know. But I would love, I would love to know them in the future, first of all. Yeah. Like, like, like let's say take at age 50 or whatever, like after I'm gone, the ability to visit them after I'm gone and be like, Hey, what I, I would just love to know them in the future. After I like, that would be a really neat gift for them and it would be a neat gift for me. Yeah. Like imagine me knowing them at like 70, what if it created mental illness in them? They're like,

Speaker 3: 1:24:20

oh shit. I've forbid dad was a time traveler after all. Okay. So with,

Speaker: 1:24:24

with the asterisk that assuming that it wouldn't harm them, but if I could do that in a way that would nourish them, I would do that.

Speaker 2: 1:24:31

I, uh, we've got this new exchange student, Sarah mm-hmm. Who's 16. Right. So very communicative, very grown up for a young lady. Mm-hmm. And me and Jill are like, what do you need more? What are we doing wrong? And, and she doesn't really know. Sure. Right. It's her first time here. And kind of same for your girls. So. Sure. I guess I would say that's great and just do the best you can now.

Speaker: 1:24:52

Yeah. It, it would be neat. It would be neat to, to see them and enjoy them after I had already gone as a gift for them, but also a gift for me. Yeah. So we'll say that. Okay.

Speaker 3: 1:25:01

Alright. I take that? Yeah. You have two, two names. Carna and

Speaker: 1:25:07

Freya. Which one do you love more? I love'em both. They're so different. I, I tell them Who loves you more? Mm. They both love me in their, in their own way. But what I would say is, I, I've had this conversation with them actually.'cause my oldest one's very verbally expressive and more emotionally expressive. And sometimes she'll be like, oh, you know, you're not, not fair. You know, it's the thing right now. And I'm like, you're right. Like, I love you both differently. I, it's impossible for me to love you equally, but I will do my best to love you in the ways that you need to be loved.'cause I think that's like the hardest thing is a parent they each need loved in different ways. Right? Like

Speaker 2: 1:25:41

that's the, the love languages thing Right. From way back. And it applies in every kind of type of relationship in some ways. Yeah.

Speaker: 1:25:48

I mean, one of the things that I've had conversation, yeah.'cause she's we're able to have deep conversations with both of'em. Uh, for, you know, five and seven. But, you know, one of the things I've thanked her for is like, she was our first born, right? So that means every mistake that I make as a parent, I'm usually gonna make on her first. Thanks for the grace. Mm-hmm. And the ability to learn with you. And I've told her that and I was like, you know,'cause we'll talk about that sometimes to the extent we can at seven. So I think, but I, I, my five year old's great too. She's just different. Like, she's just different. She's like all, all gas, no breaks. So, uh, which is more my style, so that

Speaker 2: 1:26:26

my wife would say that about me for sure too. Yeah. Yep. Um, what was that third question?

Speaker: 1:26:31

Uh, I said 7, 10, 11. So seven. So I missed the seven the first time around. Yeah.

Speaker 2: 1:26:38

Hmm. I'm not sure if I want to ask you that one because we've kind of brushed against that already. All right. You pick one. I'm gonna go up to six. Okay. If you could only eat one color of food for the rest of your life. What color would it be? One color of food. One color. Red and green are fairly popular. Brown.

Speaker: 1:27:00

Yeah, I was gonna say red, but only because that includes, you go carnivore. Diet includes Jordan Peterson's, you're here. Include? Well, that, well no, no. Um, I mean that includes strawberries, includes apples, it includes potatoes, it includes steak. It includes. Fish. So there's a lot of Yeah, that's where

Speaker 2: 1:27:17

my

Speaker: 1:27:17

mind

Speaker 2: 1:27:17

went. All right. I dig it. Yeah, I dig it. Um, do you want to tell a crazy story that you didn't tell last time? Because we normally have a crazy story at the end of the show.

Speaker: 1:28:09

You know, my life's, I, I'm pretty forthright. I think I told some fairly crazy ones. Um, I guess I just wanna say if you've made it this far, thank you. Um, and please, if there's things that you'd like to hear us talk more, explore more, just let us know. Like, I, I'm, I, I wish there was someone in, I always imagine the audience or listener being the third person be like, what do you think? What do you want to learn more about? No crazy story. Unless you want to hear one. I'm happy to tell. Do you have any, well, do you have any near death experiences? Uh, no. Don't, but okay. Here, here's a fun, here's, here's, I don't know this, this is the most random thing, and I've had a few random conversations about this lately. So, um, I, uh. Last year, and you know, over the last decade of my life, I've been fortunate enough to use different medicines to enhance neuroplasticity, ketamine being one of them, and it's legal, et cetera, in Northern Colorado or in Colorado. Um, and, you know, you were joking earlier, like, hey, Colorado mushrooms, et cetera. Um, but I I, for anybody out there that's to enhance

Speaker 2: 1:29:13

neuroplasticity, I didn't really

Speaker: 1:29:15

Yeah. Recognize that. So, so for, for, um, I'm not a scientist in this regard, but what I would say is, um, I'll give an example. So like, ketamine's been shown to be a very effective medicine for people that are coping with, like, let's say you come back from war, um, or you've, you've served our country in that way and you have PTSD, um, when trauma's formed it, it literally imprints on your brain differently. It rewires your neural connection, hence the term trauma at a subconscious level, which means you can't just like. Think your way through it. Uh, like again, you get shifted into your animal, part of your brain, uh, and you can gradually like, heal that over time with traditional therapy modalities. That's great. And an accelerant for that process can be different types of medicines. Um, I've personally experienced the potency of using ketamine that way. Um, and, and there's other medicines like that. But I, yeah. Like when my dad passed away, I can't remember if we talked about this, but like, I, I used hallucinogenic mushrooms, not licensed, not therapeutic. And it was one of the more potent medicines to help me transform that as a catalyst to, to make meaning out of that experience. Oh, wow. As a, as a

Speaker 2: 1:30:22

16-year-old. Have you, have you heard Rick Perry talking about ketamine? Mm-hmm. No. Um, he like former Texas governor, Rick Perry. Oh, wow. Like Bible Rick Perry. Yeah. Okay. Is a huge, I think he came on either Rogan or Lex Friedman. Wow. Or Tucker. Wow. At one of those, probably not Tucker. Yeah. There's a but to talk about That's great. Yeah. Ketamine with this other dude that's a big student of it. And mostly for, for Yeah. Healing from trauma purposes.

Speaker: 1:30:49

Well, here and here's what I would say. So, um, anything can be abused. I do know that the, like there's, there's in my psychology background and some of this, like there's addictive reward mechanisms and the potency of that and stuff. Like if fentanyl and oxycodone are on one side where there's like high addictive potential and high high reward mechanisms to encourage that with withdrawal symptoms whose syn inject mushrooms are like the opposite. Of that curve. Uh, however, ketamine in certain forms can be very addictive. Is that right? Well, so here's what I was, it is,

Speaker 2: 1:31:23

it's not a recreational experience, though.

Speaker: 1:31:25

Some people, well, some people can choose to because like, it's so, oh,

Speaker 2: 1:31:29

like if you hit it hard, then it's kind of taking you to a different place. So, so I'll

Speaker: 1:31:32

caveat this with, I'm speaking way beyond my depth and not a medical practitioner. Okay. Speaking from personal experiences and places where it was prescribed under medical use. But, uh, and just my anecdotal experience. So I'm a person on the internet, you know, pretend I know nothing. But what I remember about this is that it was originally used through, uh, as like anesthesiology where it's like this for surgery and those kind of things, because it can numb pain. So I think if you have. Addictive potential. It helps you dissociate all these other kind of things. Right. But the benefit of that when you experience trauma is it lets you kinda look at it more objectively. Yeah.

Speaker 2: 1:32:07

And like go up from the balcony, almost get away from the lizard brain.

Speaker: 1:32:10

Yeah. And, and like both literally and figuratively. Yeah. And my personal experience with this is that, um, I mean I had three different experiences where I was guided by a therapist, um, in this process. It was different every time. And sometimes it was, I was completely conversational, like, just like this to the extent where I was like, am I even under the influence of this? Right. And like, I was like, and like even she was, wow, you're super conversation. It was actually she in this example. Okay. But, um. It's just, I, I would encourage people to, if they go down this path, work with a therapist first to guide you.'cause the neuroplastic, what that means essentially is that your brain is flexible to rewire patterns and learning processes. And if you're

Speaker 2: 1:32:55

already doing, don't put a bunch of other crap in there. If you're already, let's call performance enhancement. Like if you're already,

Speaker: 1:33:00

if you've already cultivated practices to guide performance enhancement, this can be an accelerant of that. Especially where there are hurdles that

Speaker 2: 1:33:07

you mm-hmm. Are

Speaker: 1:33:08

struggling to get over, want to get over faster,

Speaker 2: 1:33:10

take a roadblock away. Yeah. But you don't want to jump over the roadblock and into a pit because you haven't really prepared the foundation.

Speaker: 1:33:16

Yep. And in that environment, ketamine in this community is known as like the grandmother because it's very gentle. And what I'll say is my personal, I had very deeply personal experiences. Like it was crazy. Um, in the first time I went through, I, I feel like I got to. Connect with my grandfather, my dad, all this like really healthy masculine energy. Okay. And my personal background, I don't really have, you know, outside of an older, some older brothers I have, I don't really have like a patriarch to rely on when I go through like deep life journey experiences. Sure. Yeah. And I feel like I've got to tap some of that source, which is a neat thing. But my encouragement would be, um, if you go down this route, connect with like a therapist or someone that's licensed with, they'll guide you and like, don't let the perception of these things or like the social stigma get away from you evaluating these if the path that you're on. You end up getting connected and going out. Resource yourself.

Speaker 2: 1:34:08

Investigate these resources. Yep. Don't let societies', uh, judgment Yeah. Or anybody

Speaker: 1:34:14

else's judgment of you. Like, I mean, especially if you're in an environment where it's legal. Yeah. Like there is in Colorado and a prescribed environment. Like there's a lot of resources out there. Here's a little, and John Hopkins actually has a approved protocol for this, so it's not like it's this woowoo thing. Right. There's, there's protocols and science behind it. So,

Speaker 2: 1:34:31

cool.

Speaker: 1:34:31

Yep.

Speaker 2: 1:34:33

Purpose driven wealth. Clinton, Jasper. Really interesting young man with a sharp looking suit. Can you button that suit? Uh, I can, that spark coat. It looks like it's kind of designed to hang open.

Speaker: 1:34:43

I think I can button it. Let me see if I can button it while sitting down.

Speaker 3: 1:34:46

Yeah, I can. Oh yeah. Look at that. Yeah, look at that.

Speaker: 1:34:49

That Taylor did it

Speaker 2: 1:34:49

right? You

Speaker: 1:34:50

did.

Speaker 2: 1:34:50

Yeah. Good job. You would n it right too in the diet.

Speaker: 1:34:52

Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Also a local business person. I won't mention them as a free prop, so you can ask them for a sponsor next time and we can mention that this person

Speaker 2: 1:34:59

that made this. Yep. What, why don't you give him a shout out?

Speaker: 1:35:02

Uh, I will. Okay. I wasn't sure. Bespoke Edge, uh, Ron, who owns this business? He, I think they had a, yeah, yeah. He's Ron with, so he should be part of like, I Thinker chapter probably. Tell me more about it. Uh, it was just great. Like, I mean, I met with him, um, I as through losing some of the weight and those kind of things. Um, yeah, all your shit didn't fit. Yeah, very true. And after like 12 months of consistency there, I was like, you know, I should probably get some new clothes and decided to get a couple of sport coats made. So I got a sport coat made. He actually made this shirt too, but I only bought this one shirt from him. Cool. The rest of the time I'm wearing like golf polos or performance polos, just'cause they're more comfortable. I tried to dress up for you, Kurt. I figured we were professionally dating on the podcast. Hide my tummy here a little bit better. So there, yeah, exactly. Hide it. He can make, he can make you feel like a million bucks and, and look really good. So Can he fix my keys? Actually fell next level. I really did. So, so funny. Sorry, as an aside, keep, we'll wrap this up. We're good. So,'cause I know your, your colleague here has to get out, but she does have a, a registra or what do they call it? And was it a reservation? Anna? Ava. Ava. Ava. Sorry. Ava, uh, thank you by the way, for helping us. Um, so funny story about this sport coat. I was having a conversation with Mark Torres a couple weeks ago, a fellow next level member. Business owner in the community, et cetera. Really neat guy. And he was like, Hey, nice sport coat. Do you know Ron now Ron Wagner, who's the owner of the, the spoke edge. And I was like, I did a double take.'cause I just thought it was like completely outta context. And I was like, wait, where do I know that name? He is like, I

Speaker 3: 1:36:26

could tell that that's not a name brand. Well, he is. Hey. He's

Speaker: 1:36:28

like, Ron just sold me the same sport coat. And I'm like, oh, that's so funny. And what's interesting is like, I I, I don't know, it, it was just kind of a funny, serendipitous thing, but Ron does a great job, so

Speaker 2: 1:36:39

well shout out to Mark Torres for, um, being a Man of Culture. Amen. He, uh, the, the painting that I had commissioned for Drew, uh, was Mark's idea, not the artist, but he was like, how about some kind of a commission painting or something? Yeah. Yeah. So shout out to that. Shout out to Mark. Good man. Cheers. And thanks for being here. Thanks, man. Thanks for having me.