#57. I Am But More Than A Refugee - Behrouz Boochani and Abdul Samad Haidari

Behrouz Boochani and Abdul Samad Haidari speak about their journeys as refugees, the systems which demonize asylum seekers as criminals, Manus Prison Theory and structural oppression, and the role of art, literature and storytelling in resistance an healing.

Guest Profiles:

Behrouz Boochani is a Kurdish-Iranian journalist, human rights defender, writer, film producer and research fellow at Canterbury University. He, along with Omid Tofighian, developed the Manus Prison Theory which is a framework to understand offshore detention facilities and how this system functions as a form of systemic violence and oppression against asylum seekers. Behrouz himself was detained at Manus Island for two years after its official closure in 2019 and his memoir, No Friend But the Mountains: Writing from Manus Prison, won the Victorian Prize for Literature and the Victorian Premier's Prize for Nonfiction in January 2019.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/jul/31/writing-from-manus-prison-a-scathing-critique-of-domination-and-oppression

Abdul Samad Haidari is journalist, poet and refugee advocate. From the Hazara community in Afghanistan, he was forced to flee Afghanistan on multiple occasions having spent his childhood as a refugee in Pakistan and Iran before returning. His journalism had a particular focus on women and children's rights, terrorist group actions, transparency and accountability in government, and the systematic persecution of minority groups in both Afghanistan and Pakistan.  He spent 9 years in a refugee camp in Indonesia before making in to New Zealand. The podcast title "I am but more than a refugee" is an homage to one of the poems in his recent book. "The Unsent Condolences"

https://abdulsamadhaidari.wixsite.com/site/books

Transcript

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Welcome back, everybody, to the Smooth Brain Society.

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Today,

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in the theme of having two guests on for the past few weeks,

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again,

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I have two incredible,

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incredible guests who are recording from New Zealand.

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The first is Behrouz Boochani.

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He is a Kurdish-Iranian journalist,

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human rights defender,

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writer,

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and film producer who is living in New Zealand.

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He was held in the Australian-run Manus Island Detention Centre in Papua New Guinea.

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from 2013 until its closure in 2017.

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In July 2020, he became a senior adjunct research fellow at the University of Canterbury.

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Bouchani is the co-director along with Iranian filmmaker Arash Kamali.

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A Sarvestani of the documentary Chauka, Please Tell Us the Time.

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He has published numerous works on the plight of refugees held by the Australian

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government on Manus Island.

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His memoir,

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No Friend But the Mountains,

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written from Manus Prison,

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has won the Victorian Prize for Literature and the Victorian Premier's Prize for

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Nonfiction in January 2019.

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Abdul Samad Hadari is a poet, writer, teacher and journalist.

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He served as a freelance journalist and humanitarian aid worker in areas of

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Afghanistan that remained dangerous to civilians because of influence of terrorist groups.

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Abdul served with the Norwegian Refugee Council,

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Action Aid Afghanistan,

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Daily Outlook Afghanistan group of newspapers and the Daily Afghanistan Express as

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a journalist.

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Abdul wrote articles and editorials about on-the-ground realities in Afghanistan

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and Pakistan which were then circulated widely.

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These had a particular focus on women and children's rights,

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corruption,

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transparency,

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and accountability in government and terrorist group actions,

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and the systematic persecution of minority groups in both Afghanistan and Pakistan.

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He fled and sought refuge in Indonesia,

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where he lived as a stateless refugee for nine years and now lives and works in Aotearoa,

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New Zealand.

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So thank you both of you for coming on.

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I feel like I have two celebrities on with me today.

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So thank you.

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Welcome to the Smooth Man Society.

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Thank you for having us.

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Thank you very much, Sahir, for having us tonight.

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So I gave you guys, I gave them more sort of the Wikipedia introductions, if you will.

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But if you guys could give us a little bit of a background into sort of your lives,

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of course,

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both coming from refugee backgrounds,

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both coming from minority backgrounds in your countries,

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if you could enlighten our listeners with sort of that sort of idea.

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So we have some historical context from which we can take the conversations forward.

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That would be awesome.

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Yeah, thank you for having us.

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It's great to be here.

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I'm Kurdish.

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Probably many people know that Kurdish people live in Middle East,

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but we are divided,

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you know,

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between four countries.

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So I'm from the Iranian side.

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We are like probably

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more than 30 million population but most of course live in the turkey side but in

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iranian side we are at least eight million people so that is my background and i

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think that's really important because being a court or born in the court as a court

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has uh impacted on my life and on my uh

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my personal life and also on my political perspective,

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the way I understand the world,

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the way I approach to art and literature and writing,

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because I born in a colonialism context and grew up in that system.

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I fled Iran, I left Iran because of that, because that caused my journey.

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And then I went to Indonesia.

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I was there for like two months.

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And then I took on a boat and I went to Australia.

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But when I arrived in Australia,

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I realized that the law has changed.

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So they have a new policy,

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which in Australia,

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they call it 19 July policy,

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which means anyone who come to Australia by boat,

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they banish them to Manus Island in north of Papua New Guinea and to Nauru Island.

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So I was banished to

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Manus Island, I was there for like six years.

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So in the introduction, you mentioned that the Manus was closed at 2017.

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That is just an official statement, but actually Manus was closed in 2019.

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And then they transferred all of us to Port Mosby,

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which is the capital city of Papua New Guinea.

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And from there, I was there for like two months and then I came to New Zealand.

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I was invited by World Festival in Christchurch and I moved to New Zealand.

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But still, right now that I'm talking with you, still there are 30 people who are in Port Mosby.

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and are waiting to be transferred to other countries so still is ongoing uh policy

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so that is my whole story in a very short time yeah i on a personal note i just

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find it very funny that countries like australia where they're where

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majority of the people there were all sent there on boats,

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all of a sudden don't like other people coming there on boats.

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I find it sort of ironic.

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And yeah, oh, antithetical.

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Oh, I'm in the UK at the moment.

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And there's a big,

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there's a big push these days,

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political push to stop people coming into the country

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coming in on boats, refugees, migrants, asylum seekers of any sort.

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And yeah,

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that's why I thought that it would be a great time to have this discussion with two

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people who experienced the difficulty.

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And also the other thing, like you said, that the law had changed by the time you showed up.

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And yeah,

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with people who are leaving their countries,

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they're going,

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I'm assuming you would have taken a lot of risks to get to where you,

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to even make it to Australia.

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And sort of the idea that for some reason they're following the news and know

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exactly what rules are being changed throughout this entire process.

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would deter people who are making months long, year long journeys.

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I don't necessarily see how that's really a deterrent or helps anybody.

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Yeah, definitely.

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You know, there are many things about Australian refugee policy to say and discuss.

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You are right.

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Some people said,

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once I read,

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they said,

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because you are an island,

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that's why we come by boat,

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because we cannot come by bicycle or car or train.

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You are an island.

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So if you want to go to, reach to that island, we should get in the boat, you know?

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But definitely there is a very deep historical context

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And there is definitely a colonialism mentality there.

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So we can, if we have a chance, talk about this.

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And also how Australia has become like an example to other countries such as UK.

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And now we see United States, they are looking at Guantanamo.

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Bay as a place that they banish refugees there and you know that Guantanamo

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actually has roots I mean Guantanamo prison has roots in refugees policies so long

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time ago I think in 1991 or two they

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the first group of people who they banished there were refugees.

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So I haven't read about the before that,

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but I am sure that Guantanamo has a long history for refugees policies and they

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push refugees and send them there.

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So there are a lot to say about this policy.

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Definitely Australia is very interesting.

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Of course it's painful, but it's very interesting example to be discussed in this context.

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Speaking of the USA and I wanted to

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I can ask Abdul to talk about a little bit of his journey because whenever you hear Afghanistan,

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it's mostly until,

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at least in the recent history since 2001,

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has always been in the context of the United States.

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But of course, the history goes back a lot further.

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And if you could give us a little bit of background into your journey as well,

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Abdul,

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that would be great.

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Thank you very much,

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Sahir,

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and if that is okay,

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I would like to open that small introduction with a poetry,

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and after that,

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just speak a little bit about myself.

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Of course, of course.

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This poem defines where I come from, and it talks about beyond my identity and language.

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And this has no title yet,

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but it goes,

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I come from the wild gem gates of wonderland,

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with mountains tall as your dreams.

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I opened my eyes in the grasp of all seasons where garden of rare roses,

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lilac labour of laughter,

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fill cups of your life and make you whole.

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I am the blossom of wild almonds with clear rills of musky scents in the roots of my curly hair.

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I carry all the colors your eyes can behold,

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the misty aroma in the air that breath your lungs long to praise.

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My name is

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Abdul Samet Abdul, and I belong to the Hazara ethnic community in Afghanistan.

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And as a member of the Hazara community,

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of course,

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we have been facing ethnic cleansing and genocide for a very long time.

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and perhaps before I was born and when I was born there was a genocide and genocide

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still continues up to this date.

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And as a result of this continuous genocide, my family members, they became refugees.

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They were displaced within the country.

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I lost a little sister in that process of ethnic cleansing in Afghanistan.

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And I became a refugee at a very early age, 10 or 11 years old.

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So I have been wandering across water since then,

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and I became a child laborer at the age of 11 in Iran at the construction sites.

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I was made to stand in a live shooting line in Kandipush,

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Afghanistan,

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close to Kandahar during the 1990s.

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And,

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of course,

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I returned in Afghanistan in 2007,

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thinking that the security situation had improved and that I could help my people

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to rebuild our country,

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and I started my journalism.

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I started my career in journalism and I did journalism in Afghanistan.

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And as a result of journalism, again, I had to leave Afghanistan and I became a refugee again.

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And I ended up in Indonesia, of course.

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And I spent in Indonesia almost 10 years with no clear faith or certain future.

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And that is my journey.

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And I arrived in Aotearoa, New Zealand in 2023.

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And I am two years old in this country.

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That was awesome.

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A few things which you said really sort of stood up to me.

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One is you said that you went back

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And it brought to me sort of the thoughts,

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and hopefully you guys can speak to it,

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that hope of wanting to go back to,

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like you had gone back to Afghanistan,

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of course,

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the goal of refugees to wanting to go back to their countries and basically not

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being able to because of the situation on the ground there.

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And it also...

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Oh,

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it also comes to the...

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I keep bringing it back to what I see currently in the news and politics where it's

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always like,

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why are they coming here?

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Why don't they just stay back?

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They just want to leave.

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But your story clearly shows that someone who's wanted to go back and for various

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reasons hasn't been able to or has gone back and then has had to leave again.

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So...

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So how does it feel now that,

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and of course Behrouz can also answer this question,

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how does it feel now that you guys are in Aotearoa,

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does the refugee journey sort of end when you get to sort of a Western country into

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Aotearoa or in the UK?

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Is the story done once you end on these shores or is there a lot more to it?

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I think that is a very good question because people think that when you just reach

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to a safe place or in a place that you are able to start a new life so that is dumb

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but actually you know

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because of your background and your experience as a refugee.

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So, of course, refugees have different backgrounds.

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But,

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you know,

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for example,

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in my case,

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before I reached New Zealand,

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I was in prison for six years.

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So that's definitely impacted on me.

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But of course, it's hard to start a new life

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Depends on your background.

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If you be an educated person,

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probably is much easier or even it can be difficult compared to others.

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If you be like younger, probably, and I'm sure is much easier to find your way.

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But when you are older, of course, you have a long,

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history back home and you carry that,

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you know,

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and you come to a totally different place and you should start in your life.

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So all of these,

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you know,

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knowing the language,

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struggling with the language,

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finding friends,

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network,

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finding community,

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finding like having an opportunity to contribute to the society,

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to the new society.

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All of this is depends to where you come from and your background.

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as a person because people are different you know and for some people is much

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difficult is for some people is easier or but still as a refugee i think there is a

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difference between a refugee and a migrant because the refugee accepted for

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must accept that cannot go back to his or her homeland that is really different but

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when you are a migrant you decided to come to move to start a journey and you are

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able to go back sometimes or even you can go back forever

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But as a refugee, you must start a new life in the new society.

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That is a huge difference.

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But generally, of course, it's very difficult.

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And it depends to the country that is hosting you as well.

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Some societies are more multicultural.

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uh is much easier some countries are not for example in Wellington that we live or

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in Aotearoa New Zealand I my understanding is compared to Australia is less

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multicultural

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And that,

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of course,

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that make it more difficult to start a new life because people here are not really familiar.

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For example,

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still in Wellington,

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which is a very progressive city,

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whenever I meet people,

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I can say that 99% of people that I meet,

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when I talk,

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after a few words they say that where are you from what is that announcement so of

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course this is a very random question for them but for people like us it's very

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difficult always you should answer that you know so that you it's tiring and it's

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not only me you know i met many people even

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european people who came here they always complain about that and that shows

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actually people here don't used to see people with a different background compared

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to for example a city like london i think in a city like london probably people

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have a different

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reaction when they meet each other but here they really people want to know they

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are really interested to know where are you from and they want to know about the

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place you come from so the whole conversation like start or shape around who you

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are and where you come from which is fun

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I don't have problem with that generally,

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but I know that most of people have problem with that because it's tiring.

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Always should answer this question all the time.

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So, I mean, just generally, as a refugee, you face many challenges.

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And, you know, so I'm sure that Abdul will talk about this.

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So Abdul wants to bring his family.

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And, you know, that's a different case compared to me that I don't want to bring my family.

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So I don't have that.

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problem but I mean compared to your background your position you know we are

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individual we are we have different background and cases but generally of course we

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have a same experience as well in many ways to start in your life but it depends to

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the society as well I mean the place that you

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uh is hosting you uh so that's very different but generally there are many

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challenges for a person a refugee to start a new life it's a long journey but

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sometimes people say that we i complain too much but that is not complaint this is

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the

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We just want to talk about these challenges that people have a better understanding or,

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you know,

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it's not complaining.

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For me,

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Sahir,

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I would like to go back to your little bit of explanation about people complaining

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about refugees,

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why making a lot of different statements saying that people are willingly leaving

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their countries,

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refugees are willingly leaving their countries.

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We have to understand the fact that there is a 1951 convention.

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According to the UN 1951 convention,

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refugees are those who are forced to flee their home countries because of war.

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racism,

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discriminations and being a part member of political group and there are five

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reasons and if someone falls in one of those categories and leaving the country

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which means the person is forced to leave the country and I'm 100% sure that

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People would not just easily give up on everything and the soil that you are born

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in and the family,

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friends,

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bonding with the land is just like a soul with the flesh of the human being.

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So it is impossible to detach flesh from the skeleton or from the soul.

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And then at the same time, refugees don't have any choice over their destinations.

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And there are a lot of articulations about refugees that they are choosing and

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going to specific countries to go to these specific countries.

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I think it is very unfair to make those statements without being walking a single

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mile of the refugees and asylum seekers when they leave their home countries.

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When I left my country, I was bleeding.

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I was injured.

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I was wounded.

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And I tried four times to stay in my home country.

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Four times I was forced to leave the country.

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And I didn't have any other place, anywhere else to go.

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And then finally, the destination chose me.

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And so I ended up in Indonesia.

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And it was not my decision to go and end up in Indonesia and live my life for 10

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years in the prison.

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I didn't wish that.

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I don't think any common mind or rationally thinking,

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person would choose to go and end up in prison and spend 10 years of life,

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most fruitful years of your life in the prison.

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I don't think anybody chooses that.

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And refugees are not choosing any destination.

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Refugees are not choosing any directions.

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Refugee directions and destinations all choose refugees.

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When you leave the country, you fall in the hands of the people.

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You're not sure.

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You're not even 5% sure that you would ever make to a safe destination.

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There's no guarantee for that.

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You might die in the jungle.

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You might be killed.

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You might face different consequences.

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You might get drowned in the sea.

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So all of those things are possible.

(00:26:30):
You may get detained and never get released in one of those countries who are not

(00:26:35):
hosting refugees.

(00:26:37):
And for me, the second phase is...

(00:26:43):
Most of the host countries,

(00:26:46):
majority I should say,

(00:26:47):
majority of the hosting countries,

(00:26:50):
they have very hostile policies against refugees and asylum seekers.

(00:26:55):
And hostile in a sense that, for example, in Indonesia, refugees are not allowed to work.

(00:27:04):
Refugees are not allowed to have a bank account.

(00:27:06):
Refugees are not allowed to enroll at schools, universities.

(00:27:10):
Refugees are not even allowed to register a mobile SIM card.

(00:27:14):
Refugees are not even allowed to drive.

(00:27:17):
Refugees are not allowed to get married and form a family.

(00:27:20):
Refugees have no legal access to legal supports.

(00:27:25):
Something happens to you and you don't have the right to go and stand in front of

(00:27:29):
the court and ask for justice.

(00:27:32):
So these are,

(00:27:33):
I don't think any rational person choose to live in that kind of situation unless

(00:27:37):
you are really,

(00:27:39):
you have no other option.

(00:27:40):
You have really no other options and you choose in spite of that,

(00:27:43):
those challenges choose to stay.

(00:27:45):
In the meantime,

(00:27:46):
while you are staying in those countries,

(00:27:49):
it is like an,

(00:27:50):
it is a cage,

(00:27:51):
it is a cage with open doors.

(00:27:54):
It is exactly, you know, just a cage with open doors.

(00:27:58):
You can't fly, you can't get out of the cage.

(00:28:03):
At the same time,

(00:28:04):
there are systems who are extremely oppressive dealing with the refugees and asylum

(00:28:08):
seekers and very dehumanizing at the same time.

(00:28:13):
So with the passage of time,

(00:28:14):
you are not losing only the numbers of the years and you're not losing only the

(00:28:19):
best years of the life.

(00:28:21):
You're losing most of yourself.

(00:28:23):
the dehumanization system completely turns you into an empty shell.

(00:28:30):
You lose the confidence, you lose a lot of things in that process.

(00:28:33):
It's a very difficult process.

(00:28:35):
And then once you get resettled,

(00:28:37):
so the resettlement is,

(00:28:39):
it is of course,

(00:28:40):
as Behrouz earlier mentioned,

(00:28:41):
it depends on the society that are hosting refugees.

(00:28:46):
But I believe that resettlement is not the end of refugees' journey.

(00:28:51):
That is the start of challenges.

(00:28:53):
That is the start of struggle.

(00:28:55):
And I say, why?

(00:28:59):
Because when you come,

(00:29:01):
the government and the society,

(00:29:03):
they expect from you to function as a very established,

(00:29:11):
as a very smart,

(00:29:14):
as a very well-performing person.

(00:29:17):
not understanding what refugees,

(00:29:19):
what we have gone through,

(00:29:20):
the amount of dehumanization,

(00:29:22):
the amount of confidence that we lost in this process.

(00:29:25):
We are absolutely scared of everything.

(00:29:27):
People are talking about some of the things,

(00:29:29):
touching a little bit about refugees or this policy and that policy that really

(00:29:33):
scares people,

(00:29:33):
refugees still.

(00:29:36):
It becomes a part of our lives.

(00:29:40):
For example, now I am safe, but I am constantly struggling to bring my family members.

(00:29:48):
And the Pakistani government is deporting refugees.

(00:29:52):
And then the Taliban are threatening because of my riding.

(00:29:57):
And I lost two family members in two years back to back.

(00:30:00):
So I really don't know where to go.

(00:30:02):
And it is not a very small process and it's not a very easy process.

(00:30:06):
The system is...

(00:30:08):
sometimes very complicated to deal with and I am safe but the feeling of guilt and

(00:30:15):
the feeling of regret really haunts me every moment of my life when I walk and I

(00:30:22):
really feel empty and I really feel like I really wish my mother and siblings were

(00:30:27):
beside me at least I didn't have to worry you know my half

(00:30:32):
part of my life,

(00:30:33):
or maybe 60% of my energy is spent on the family application,

(00:30:36):
family reunification applications and other documents.

(00:30:40):
So that really becomes exhausting with the passage of time.

(00:30:45):
So it is not the end of all worries and the end of everything.

(00:30:49):
And I believe it is the start of struggle,

(00:30:51):
as Behro said,

(00:30:52):
you know,

(00:30:52):
people with young ages,

(00:30:55):
they might be able to cope with that.

(00:30:56):
And maybe they are younger than maybe the system or the oppressor

(00:31:01):
the oppression or the dehumanizing system may get out of the body and minds very quickly,

(00:31:08):
but with people,

(00:31:10):
you know,

(00:31:10):
a little bit mature,

(00:31:11):
understanding and processing those things,

(00:31:13):
it will take a while to age us in the community,

(00:31:16):
in the society,

(00:31:17):
and to understand the culturally appropriateness of the society that you are living amongst.

(00:31:25):
You know, these are the challenges, I think, that stretch

(00:31:29):
on and on and on.

(00:31:38):
Now, that was very well put by both of you guys.

(00:31:42):
There are a lot of similarities in terms of going back to what Behrouz said,

(00:31:47):
the where are you from sort of question.

(00:31:50):
It seems simple, but it carries a lot of weight.

(00:31:53):
And I have no refugee background,

(00:31:55):
but I have a migrant background with my parents coming from India,

(00:31:58):
but me being born in New Zealand,

(00:31:59):
but then me living around the world and people asking,

(00:32:02):
where are you from?

(00:32:03):
Whatever answer you give,

(00:32:05):
you always see it's not necessarily what they wanted or not what they're expecting

(00:32:11):
you to give.

(00:32:12):
And then that causes its own challenges.

(00:32:14):
And then when you add the additional level of having been forced out of where you

(00:32:19):
were from,

(00:32:21):
it opens another thing.

(00:32:23):
It opens a whole another layer.

(00:32:27):
With that in mind, and Abdo, you were speaking a lot about your family.

(00:32:32):
Are there certain conditions which would want you guys to go back to your homeland?

(00:32:38):
Because you guys came when you were slightly older.

(00:32:41):
Abdo on your last time and Behrou said you left as an adult.

(00:32:49):
Are there any situations or conditions which would make you want to go back?

(00:32:53):
Or is it more about getting your family's friends back?

(00:33:00):
For me,

(00:33:01):
it is about my family members,

(00:33:03):
and if I return where to go,

(00:33:08):
and that is the process of the resettlement for the refugees,

(00:33:11):
when you go through a different process,

(00:33:14):
there is RSD,

(00:33:15):
Refugee Status Dissemination Interview,

(00:33:17):
and you go through those all things,

(00:33:18):
and you get resettled,

(00:33:19):
and you get resettled for the safety reason.

(00:33:23):
And if the whole point is to return back to the country, then I don't think anyone would leave.

(00:33:27):
And I don't think I would have left in the very first place.

(00:33:31):
So for me,

(00:33:31):
there's no space unless I became maybe a member of the Taliban group to satisfy

(00:33:38):
them and to aid us and to be able to survive.

(00:33:41):
that there's no other way for me particularly to return to Afghanistan.

(00:33:46):
But my whole effort is now,

(00:33:48):
even my family members are now under threat,

(00:33:50):
and I'm struggling to move them,

(00:33:51):
evacuate them wherever possible.

(00:33:54):
And I don't have any access to any other countries except appealing,

(00:33:58):
begging,

(00:33:58):
and pleading before the government,

(00:34:00):
look,

(00:34:00):
this is the situation,

(00:34:01):
and I don't have any big power,

(00:34:04):
I don't have anything else,

(00:34:05):
and I can't do anything.

(00:34:07):
So this is, for me, this is the process of the family reunification.

(00:34:10):
And I have spent most of my life separated from my family members, you know.

(00:34:14):
It is just any time I talk to about family members,

(00:34:18):
when everybody,

(00:34:18):
you know,

(00:34:19):
people,

(00:34:19):
friends,

(00:34:20):
they talk to you,

(00:34:20):
where have you spent your holiday?

(00:34:22):
Oh, with family members going here and there and then, really, you know.

(00:34:26):
that really, it is not that I'm very unhappy for them.

(00:34:29):
I'm so happy and so glad for them that they have this opportunity going and

(00:34:33):
spending some time with their family members to heal and to flourish and to come to

(00:34:38):
regain that energy.

(00:34:39):
But for me, it is just like just a pinch of salt and chili rubbing on the open wounds.

(00:34:46):
And it is that difficult.

(00:34:48):
What happened to them?

(00:34:49):
Where are they?

(00:34:50):
Are they going to make it through the next day?

(00:34:52):
These are the things that come into my head.

(00:34:58):
Just one thing I wanted to mention.

(00:35:00):
So even you be able to go back,

(00:35:06):
that place that you left probably a long time ago is not the same.

(00:35:13):
So I mean, as a refugee, it's an ongoing challenge, which is sometimes existentialist.

(00:35:28):
challenge so and you deal with that but i myself i find it of course it's difficult

(00:35:40):
but i find it meaningful as well in many ways because that that means you can or

(00:35:51):
you are able to have a unique political perspective

(00:35:58):
The way that you understand politics,

(00:36:02):
the way you understand life and society is different,

(00:36:10):
is unique because no one is in your position as a refugee.

(00:36:17):
You are already marginalized in the society.

(00:36:23):
Already you have a title as a refugee.

(00:36:29):
A title that has been dehumanized, criminalized for decades.

(00:36:43):
You know,

(00:36:44):
look at someone like Trump,

(00:36:47):
the way that his people in his administration,

(00:36:54):
the way they talk about refugees,

(00:36:57):
they put

(00:36:58):
people alongside criminals, you know, and they repeat it all the time.

(00:37:07):
And the main media follow that.

(00:37:11):
The media actually doesn't matter right or left.

(00:37:17):
All of them, the mainstream media are following that language.

(00:37:24):
And that's

(00:37:26):
definitely impact on refugees,

(00:37:32):
the image that people have about refugees,

(00:37:37):
because they criminalize it.

(00:37:42):
So I mean,

(00:37:43):
all of these shape our political perspective,

(00:37:52):
the way we understand the world,

(00:37:54):
the way we approach

(00:37:56):
with even our daily life.

(00:38:01):
So,

(00:38:02):
I mean,

(00:38:03):
that can be very unique in many ways because we experience the dark side of what we

(00:38:16):
call liberal democracy.

(00:38:18):
We experience that.

(00:38:19):
So we experience a kind of violence which is

(00:38:26):
often invisible violence we experience that and sometimes in our daily life and so

(00:38:37):
of course we understand the whole system from a different position from a unique

(00:38:48):
position and

(00:38:50):
not only refugees, just generally minorities, you know, marginalized people.

(00:38:56):
It's quite interesting.

(00:38:58):
This is my understanding of the politics of just generally this world.

(00:39:12):
Wherever I go, you know, I visited

(00:39:16):
Europe two times for like doing conferences and events and some other countries

(00:39:28):
this is my experience wherever I go or I suggest to people wherever we go to

(00:39:39):
different countries different societies if we want to really

(00:39:44):
understand that country in a deeper way,

(00:39:51):
I think we should go and have a conversation,

(00:39:57):
like a casual trip or when we travel.

(00:40:04):
The minorities in that society,

(00:40:08):
marginalized people in that society,

(00:40:10):
they have a better or unique

(00:40:14):
understanding of that country you know but mainstream is not like that so for

(00:40:22):
example people in this country like maori people have a different the way they

(00:40:34):
experience this system it's very different

(00:40:40):
like what we call Pakiha person in this country so different so that's why you know

(00:40:49):
this is my style wherever I go I manage to if I want to like in like casual

(00:40:58):
conversation to understand something about that country that I'm there for a few

(00:41:03):
days or a week just manage to talk with minorities they

(00:41:12):
they offer you something unique about that country.

(00:41:19):
Yeah, that's very well put.

(00:41:22):
Both of you mentioned sort of this,

(00:41:24):
essentially spoke to this idea of systemic oppression and both of you have written

(00:41:28):
about it.

(00:41:30):
Peruz, I know you spoke about something called the Manus prison theory.

(00:41:36):
a lot.

(00:41:37):
And I wanted to get to that.

(00:41:39):
So if you could just sort of explain what it is.

(00:41:42):
Sorry, I'm jumping from topic to topic as well, because it's a shorter conversation.

(00:41:47):
But yeah,

(00:41:47):
if you could just quickly touch up on what the theory is,

(00:41:51):
and then maybe we can speak about that a little bit.

(00:41:53):
So let's say in a different way, so the audience can go and read about it.

(00:42:00):
It's actually the first time that come from an article that I wrote long time ago.

(00:42:06):
The title of the article is Manus Prism Theory.

(00:42:12):
And in that article, you can find it on internet.

(00:42:18):
The Manus Prism Theory, in that article, what I did, I compared Manus Prism

(00:42:28):
with the film I, Daniel Blake by Ken Luce.

(00:42:33):
So that film, I liked that film, but of course my article was not about cinema.

(00:42:41):
My article was about content.

(00:42:44):
So I just, I used the film as an example and I compared these two.

(00:42:51):
And in that article, I tried to explain

(00:42:58):
that how Manus has many twins in free societies, like in this world that we live in.

(00:43:15):
How the system in Manus is bureaucratic with many rules in this world.

(00:43:25):
free society, we see that as well.

(00:43:28):
We see many systems, including universities as well, quite similar to Manus.

(00:43:36):
So generally Manus prism system or theory is about how we should understand Manus

(00:43:47):
prism as a very harsh version of like prism.

(00:43:56):
beyond manus prison like i mean that we find other other like twins or similarity

(00:44:06):
between manus and other systems in the society and manus prison is a system of

(00:44:16):
control and we see that in the

(00:44:22):
you know, Otaf Manus in this free society, we have that version as well.

(00:44:29):
That, you know, in many systems, we are under watch.

(00:44:37):
We are controlled by the system.

(00:44:40):
And even when we go to like a shop, we do shopping, you know, we go through a process

(00:44:49):
So,

(00:44:49):
I mean,

(00:44:50):
just generally,

(00:44:51):
that is Manus Prism theory,

(00:44:54):
but we can interpret it in different way as well,

(00:44:58):
which is Manus Prism.

(00:45:00):
And you know,

(00:45:00):
Omi Tofitian that translated my book and we work together,

(00:45:06):
he developed that theory as well,

(00:45:09):
he work on it.

(00:45:12):
And I know that some other academy,

(00:45:17):
have written about it so it's like an ongoing conversation for some people but

(00:45:27):
manus prism is it can be manus prism theory it can be about the knowledge

(00:45:39):
that created by refugees in a collective resistance.

(00:45:47):
And that knowledge, it can be a unique political perspective or contribution as well.

(00:46:00):
So it's not only me, there are many people in Manus who've been writing and creating

(00:46:09):
like artwork so that is a very uh you know many books written by refugees many and

(00:46:18):
people who work with refugees many artworks created you know so there is a huge

(00:46:25):
body of work there for people who are interested and want to understand more about

(00:46:32):
australia system and manus

(00:46:35):
And Nauru as well.

(00:46:37):
Sorry, it was supposed to be short.

(00:46:40):
I was aware of it.

(00:46:43):
No, no, no.

(00:46:45):
I think that's very good.

(00:46:46):
And of course, people, like you said, there's so much art.

(00:46:49):
Of course, Abdul's poems and books will be linked.

(00:46:52):
Your article and all will be linked in the description for people to listen to as well.

(00:46:59):
Abdo,

(00:47:00):
I feel what Behrouz was saying sort of linked in a lot to what you were talking,

(00:47:05):
particularly about your time in Indonesia.

(00:47:08):
But I mean,

(00:47:10):
some of the other work which you also said,

(00:47:12):
and I remember my conversation with Kadri Anishai a few episodes ago,

(00:47:16):
where he sort of spoke about the rules and

(00:47:20):
things which refugees face which probably other people who are well migrants as

(00:47:28):
well don't necessarily face their education when their degree is not working or

(00:47:32):
what certain prisoners face like not being able to have a cell phone or anything

(00:47:37):
like that um how does your experience map onto this idea as well as i'm trying to

(00:47:45):
picture it in my head uh well uh

(00:47:50):
Indonesia has a very interesting history about the refugees and asylum seekers.

(00:48:00):
But though it is refugees are living in the communities,

(00:48:09):
but not necessarily all refugees are living in the communities.

(00:48:13):
Most of the refugees are living in the refugee camps.

(00:48:17):
It is not exactly similar to where Behruz was,

(00:48:24):
but it is as oppressive and as difficult as almost that place.

(00:48:33):
Since I arrived in Indonesia,

(00:48:36):
until I left Indonesia,

(00:48:38):
34 refugees ended their lives in Indonesia because they couldn't resist anymore.

(00:48:46):
And some of them, they had a severe headache and they passed away in Indonesia.

(00:48:53):
But the interesting part is there was no investigation ever held,

(00:48:57):
and there was no announcement or some kind of report about what really happened

(00:49:03):
with the refugees in Indonesia from the organizations that are

(00:49:09):
collaborating with the UNHCR or working alongside for the refugees and asylum seekers.

(00:49:18):
The reason I started writing in Indonesia was similar to that one and my first book

(00:49:24):
of course talks about genocide,

(00:49:26):
talks about colonization back home in Afghanistan and how they confiscated our

(00:49:32):
lands and how they forced us from

(00:49:36):
and also talking about refugees in Indonesia.

(00:49:41):
And yes, it is...

(00:49:46):
Quite an interesting place and the interesting part is people do not talk a lot

(00:49:50):
about refugees in Indonesia.

(00:49:53):
But people have done a lot, refugees and asylum seekers, they have done a lot in Indonesia.

(00:50:00):
Most of the refugees and we established some educational spaces for the refugee

(00:50:07):
children at least.

(00:50:09):
when the government denied allowing refugee children and asylum seekers to enroll

(00:50:15):
at schools,

(00:50:15):
at least we could do that.

(00:50:17):
Just created some spaces for the refugees to go and study.

(00:50:20):
But for the male members, there is no chance.

(00:50:24):
There's nothing.

(00:50:25):
It's not about qualification, having a qualification degree or not.

(00:50:29):
You are not even allowed to enroll at any institution because of your refugee status.

(00:50:35):
Though refugee status is being...

(00:50:40):
granted by the United Nations High Commissions for Refugees,

(00:50:43):
and so the government at some point is collaborating with the UNHCR and the UN

(00:50:50):
bodies working for the refugees in Indonesia.

(00:50:53):
Yet refugees are,

(00:50:54):
as I mentioned earlier,

(00:50:56):
there are certain laws and restrictions being imposed on refugees,

(00:51:00):
and people couldn't uplift those restrictions.

(00:51:04):
But of course,

(00:51:05):
people wrote about their experiences in Indonesia and created a lot of art about

(00:51:13):
refugees in Indonesia.

(00:51:20):
Yes.

(00:51:22):
Now, you guys have both mentioned now the art.

(00:51:27):
Abdul, of course, recited a poem earlier as well.

(00:51:31):
Guys, filmmakers, writers.

(00:51:33):
What is the role of art in sort of the bringing forward the,

(00:51:41):
I want to say,

(00:51:41):
the plight of refugees or refugee stories and the resistance,

(00:51:47):
as you had mentioned?

(00:51:49):
Abdul, go ahead.

(00:51:50):
Okay,

(00:51:52):
for me it is just to expose some of the invisible hidden shadows to the people who

(00:52:00):
have not heard or seen,

(00:52:04):
who haven't experienced yet that,

(00:52:06):
but mainly following the mainstream media who are portraying refugees in a very

(00:52:13):
as Behru said in a negative way and there is one interesting experience for me in

(00:52:20):
Indonesia one day I was invited to an event a function family function and the

(00:52:29):
event the party was done and then

(00:52:35):
they asked me to stay there and so I stayed there and so we talked a little bit

(00:52:39):
about refugees and about the challenges for the refugees in Indonesia and then

(00:52:44):
after maybe 40-45 minutes conversation and then she was in her early 70s or 65 and

(00:52:53):
she looked at me in the eye and said Abdul I am not afraid of refugees

(00:52:59):
And I was absolutely shocked with that statement.

(00:53:03):
So that is the image, you know.

(00:53:06):
So many negative images of the refugees have been shown and portrayed and

(00:53:12):
articulated amongst the people who haven't experienced the reality.

(00:53:17):
But the reality is something different.

(00:53:19):
Art and poetry is to expose the truth, nothing more than truth.

(00:53:25):
and i think that is the last option for most of the refugees as i have experienced

(00:53:30):
in indonesia you have the last option and so you have no power against anything the

(00:53:36):
only power that you have uh the the freedom of thought even the freedom of thought

(00:53:42):
is sometimes not uh fully practiced uh for example with my facebook when i

(00:53:49):
published my facebook

(00:53:50):
My first book was destroyed,

(00:53:53):
destroyed in a sense that when I submitted the first manuscript,

(00:53:58):
the manuscript was published instead of the final edited version of the book.

(00:54:03):
And that means that it is not something,

(00:54:06):
you know,

(00:54:06):
a very big publisher in Indonesia publishes the manuscript and saying that it was a fault.

(00:54:11):
It was a mistake.

(00:54:13):
But that is how the system works.

(00:54:14):
They try every possible option to demonize you and to shut your voice and to

(00:54:23):
disappoint you so that you do not continue writing about your experiences and

(00:54:27):
expose the truth in that system.

(00:54:32):
So it is just about exposing the truth,

(00:54:35):
nothing more than that,

(00:54:36):
and fighting for the sake of survival.

(00:54:40):
And there is just that little hope,

(00:54:42):
and that little hope riding and producing something that the society...

(00:54:47):
It is not only about surviving,

(00:54:50):
it is not only about resistance,

(00:54:52):
it is also about giving the real picture of what is really happening on the grounds.

(00:54:57):
and also you are challenging a vast,

(00:55:00):
a very major media stream in a sense,

(00:55:03):
that,

(00:55:03):
well,

(00:55:04):
you're writing about these things and you are portraying refugees and the situation

(00:55:08):
in Indonesia that way,

(00:55:09):
but that is not the way,

(00:55:10):
that's not the reality,

(00:55:11):
and this is the reality.

(00:55:13):
For example,

(00:55:14):
there were a lot of stories saying that refugees came to Indonesia just to go to Australia.

(00:55:23):
For some, it might be.

(00:55:25):
The majority of the family members are in one country and some of the family

(00:55:29):
members are left behind.

(00:55:34):
and that's right and may or might have ended up in Indonesia but for majority of

(00:55:39):
refugees it's not the case.

(00:55:41):
People ended up in Indonesia and even if North Korea was besides borders with

(00:55:48):
Indonesian people have ended up in Indonesia they would still seek asylum and

(00:55:52):
refuge in that country you know so it is about

(00:55:58):
exposing the reality and unveiling the truth and the invisible truths that most of

(00:56:06):
the mainstream media are not very much interested to touch or portray or bring to

(00:56:11):
the attention of the audience outside those prisons or those circumstances.

(00:56:20):
You mentioned a couple of examples of

(00:56:26):
having difficulty in bringing the voice to the mainstream media?

(00:56:30):
For example, you mentioned your book and publishing with that.

(00:56:34):
Have you also found sort of resistance like that?

(00:56:38):
I mean,

(00:56:39):
it's already hard to compete when Donald Trump or the prime minister of a country

(00:56:45):
says something and media covers it completely versus someone coming out of refugee

(00:56:52):
camps trying to say the real truth,

(00:56:55):
like...

(00:56:56):
that there seems to be a disconnect in,

(00:56:59):
in general,

(00:57:00):
there's a power imbalance of who people are going to listen to.

(00:57:03):
And then there's also that,

(00:57:05):
that sort of barriers were one,

(00:57:07):
which Abdul mentioned,

(00:57:08):
but have you,

(00:57:08):
did you also face it throughout your entire career and are you still facing it?

(00:57:13):
Yeah.

(00:57:14):
I think mainstream media,

(00:57:15):
the,

(00:57:16):
I think that is the nature to make things,

(00:57:22):
uh,

(00:57:22):
superficial,

(00:57:24):
sometimes dramatic.

(00:57:27):
sometimes uh you know it's like that so i don't think that i'm a mainstream

(00:57:34):
i'm comfortable in mainstream media i don't say that if i have a platform there i

(00:57:40):
don't use it always i use it you know in the mainstream media but i think the true

(00:57:48):
movement not only for refugees for all of the social movements should come from uh

(00:57:54):
within the community like a bottom of the society you know and how

(00:58:03):
people make a network, you know, like underground network and that is the main power.

(00:58:12):
So mainstream media is,

(00:58:17):
you know,

(00:58:18):
of course is a part of the challenge,

(00:58:20):
is part of the problem,

(00:58:22):
but I think they are losing their power these days.

(00:58:28):
and so we should just use the or small platforms to just share ideas you know i

(00:58:38):
think those ideas will go around and you know that will we create some change so i

(00:58:48):
don't i don't mean that

(00:58:52):
when i say change of course the aim is to create like fundamental change but we we

(00:59:03):
should be able to recognize and see the small changes that we make and i think that

(00:59:13):
comes from the bottom of the

(00:59:18):
society not from the mainstream but you know i like to be in mainstream media as

(00:59:25):
well sometimes but i'm not comfortable there which is good which is very good don't

(00:59:37):
be comfortable in those platform and when you are not comfortable that means you

(00:59:42):
make them uncomfortable as well so that's great

(00:59:49):
I mean,

(00:59:49):
we say mainstream media,

(00:59:50):
but then there's also the most famous podcast these days,

(00:59:54):
the most famous other forms of...

(00:59:58):
uh sort of media these days also tends to at least in my view sort of promote

(01:00:06):
things which are said so i i think the most obvious example is the sort of joe

(01:00:12):
rogan siding with donald trump one but then i feel that filters down throughout

(01:00:18):
other media as well where that sort of fear and hate seems to get more and sort of

(01:00:25):
the message of love making systemic change

(01:00:28):
is either lost or is directed in the wrong way so abdul i have no comment about

(01:00:38):
that so i mean uh you know we should use all the opportunities that we have to at

(01:00:49):
least share our ideas

(01:00:52):
So that's something even when you talk just with a person in the bus station.

(01:01:00):
So, I mean, people, I think people have access to ideas these days is much easier.

(01:01:17):
So, I mean, people who want to listen to

(01:01:21):
like quite radical ideas they are able to find it so that's why but you know that

(01:01:31):
is my understanding

(01:01:36):
But generally, it's quite a stupid word.

(01:01:39):
I don't like it.

(01:01:40):
It's full of technology and social media, apps, you know, it's quite crazy.

(01:01:48):
AI, all of these.

(01:01:49):
But I think people who want to hear some new ideas or radical ideas are able to find it.

(01:02:01):
Don't listen to everything Behrou said.

(01:02:03):
Follow, like, subscribe the podcast on all social medias.

(01:02:07):
Don't delete them.

(01:02:08):
That's how we get our reach.

(01:02:11):
Sorry, Abdu, did you have anything to add to that?

(01:02:15):
Well,

(01:02:16):
I think as Behrou said,

(01:02:21):
I come from,

(01:02:22):
you know,

(01:02:23):
around 10 years regions and I was born in that kind of region.

(01:02:29):
And during my childhood,

(01:02:31):
I spent most of my time communicating with the nature,

(01:02:35):
being in the nature.

(01:02:37):
But it is not like I am totally against the mainstream media.

(01:02:43):
I know there are some opportunities,

(01:02:45):
of course,

(01:02:46):
but as Behro said,

(01:02:47):
you will get a lot of radical ideas through social media.

(01:02:51):
And at the same time,

(01:02:53):
the mainstream media also provides a platform for everybody to share his,

(01:02:59):
her,

(01:03:00):
their own stories in their own way.

(01:03:03):
And as Behrouz earlier mentioned that some are losing the power and said they are

(01:03:08):
losing the power because when the report is coming and then from the wheelchair

(01:03:17):
communities and then when another report comes from the ground,

(01:03:22):
on the ground realities,

(01:03:24):
that creates totally conflict of reality.

(01:03:31):
And you see totally something different.

(01:03:33):
And I think when we are talking about the technology and I think producing a book

(01:03:40):
and writing a book,

(01:03:42):
writing a story and recording something and doing artwork and exposing them,

(01:03:48):
you know,

(01:03:49):
people have different capabilities.

(01:03:50):
People have different approaches.

(01:03:52):
Some speak through arts.

(01:03:54):
Some speak through poetry, some speak through stories, some speak through photographs.

(01:04:03):
And I think for me,

(01:04:05):
I spoke well when I realized in Indonesia that I was not,

(01:04:10):
I did not have the right to practice my journalism.

(01:04:13):
And I just shifted my journalism.

(01:04:15):
And my writing is,

(01:04:16):
of course,

(01:04:16):
the continuation of my journalism,

(01:04:18):
which means I did not give up and I still continue.

(01:04:21):
So I spoke through poetry.

(01:04:23):
So that poetry, the printed version, the digital version, it goes outside.

(01:04:27):
And that is also kind of a kind of maybe a little bit of old school approach,

(01:04:35):
but that is a different approach reaching to the audience with the solid

(01:04:42):
reality or practical experiences that comes from the person who has been in that

(01:04:48):
particular situation,

(01:04:50):
broadcasting that particular situation,

(01:04:53):
environment and experiences,

(01:04:55):
and that circulates well around the world and reaches everyone who is willing to

(01:05:01):
interact and know more.

(01:05:03):
That is my understanding about the mainstream and technologies

(01:05:13):
Awesome thoughts from both of you guys.

(01:05:15):
Thank you for those perspectives.

(01:05:17):
In the interest of time, we will, I think we should start wrapping up now.

(01:05:24):
And in the interest of that,

(01:05:26):
I just wanted both of you to sort of share your final thoughts and messages for our audience,

(01:05:32):
for anybody listening.

(01:05:35):
I know Abdul wanted to end with a poem.

(01:05:37):
So maybe I'll let Beruz go first.

(01:05:40):
If you could give us a little final thoughts,

(01:05:42):
sort of hopes for the future,

(01:05:46):
and then Abdul can finish.

(01:05:50):
Thank you very much for having us.

(01:05:53):
I don't know really what to say to people, but probably I should ask people, it's good for you.

(01:06:00):
that people just share this video if they like it.

(01:06:06):
Probably that was more practical rather than I say that let's be hopeful,

(01:06:12):
let's,

(01:06:12):
we are good together.

(01:06:14):
Just even sharing this video, if you like it to others, with others, I think that's great.

(01:06:21):
That empower this, you know, our voice or, you know,

(01:06:31):
Yeah, share it if you like it.

(01:06:33):
Thank you.

(01:06:35):
Thank you.

(01:06:36):
And if you don't like it, also share it.

(01:06:37):
Maybe someone else will like it.

(01:06:40):
No, I think that if you don't like it, don't share it.

(01:06:44):
Okay.

(01:06:45):
Yeah, if you like it, share it.

(01:06:47):
Okay, awesome.

(01:06:51):
All right, Abdul, floor is yours.

(01:06:53):
Yes, thank you.

(01:06:54):
And I would really,

(01:06:56):
before reciting a poem,

(01:06:59):
I would like to encourage everyone to be kind,

(01:07:03):
to be strong,

(01:07:04):
particularly refugees who are in the refugee camps,

(01:07:08):
refugees who are in a very difficult situation.

(01:07:11):
stay strong and use the resources that you have very wisely be patient and be kind

(01:07:19):
to your surroundings be kind to yourselves there will be always a light ahead

(01:07:24):
always there will be a way out and eventually you will get out of that that

(01:07:29):
situation

(01:07:30):
But look after yourselves,

(01:07:32):
be kind and keep practicing the gesture of kindness,

(01:07:39):
respect and understanding in the society that you are living.

(01:07:44):
And I would like to recite a poem from my recently published book called The Unsend Condolences.

(01:07:52):
This poem talks about we come across so many labels about refugees and asylum seekers.

(01:08:00):
They are defining us in so many different ways.

(01:08:04):
When they see us as a refugee,

(01:08:05):
as Behrouz said,

(01:08:06):
they always think of refugees just bringing some good food and that's all.

(01:08:12):
But refugees have much more to offer to the society.

(01:08:17):
They come with visions,

(01:08:18):
they come with hope,

(01:08:19):
they come with creativity,

(01:08:20):
they come with skills,

(01:08:21):
and they come with so many beautiful gifts,

(01:08:24):
heritage that they carry with them throughout their journey.

(01:08:27):
And this poem talks about refugees.

(01:08:30):
This is called, I am, but more than a refugee.

(01:08:36):
I am but a poet Harvesting in the garden of ghazals A guide to the tossed vapour of

(01:08:44):
noises unheard.

(01:08:47):
The blooming sea of awakening dreams The ultimate sense of life and

(01:08:51):
joy Reciting again the tongues of youth.

(01:08:57):
I am but the imminent arrival of all seasons,

(01:09:01):
the mesmerizing spring,

(01:09:03):
the harvested summer,

(01:09:05):
the purpled autumn,

(01:09:07):
the herald of winter.

(01:09:10):
I am that fine morning zephyr, emitting the reviving aroma of summer.

(01:09:17):
Sparrows take flight in my laughter, and butterflies emerge from the cocoons of my arrival.

(01:09:25):
I am but a tuneful flute from nigh, knower of unknown tunes, singer of unrhymed songs.

(01:09:34):
My voice may not be the sweetest of all,

(01:09:37):
but carries the glory of Mawlana's melodies,

(01:09:41):
roomy otherwise.

(01:09:43):
My fingers are the strings of Egyptian rood,

(01:09:47):
dancing in unison,

(01:09:48):
bouncing with delight,

(01:09:50):
forming music from nothing.

(01:09:53):
I am but a journalist, a lot of my own words, giving valiums to moral and righteous voices.

(01:10:03):
I am engaged, remain curious, firm and utterly prepared because I am but more than a refugee.

(01:10:13):
Kia ora.

(01:10:15):
Kia ora.

(01:10:16):
That was beautiful.

(01:10:18):
One final time.

(01:10:18):
Thank you, Abdul.

(01:10:19):
Thank you, Behrouz, so much for coming on.

(01:10:22):
really appreciated this conversation i wish it could have gone on longer but um

(01:10:27):
time timing time zone differences now that hopefully we can have you all back on

(01:10:32):
and continue the conversations further because there's a lot more to talk about

(01:10:36):
there like you said the journey doesn't end um so therefore the conversations don't

(01:10:41):
end so thank you so much thank you thank you thank you everybody for listening as

(01:10:47):
well and take care until the next episode