#65. Mainstreaming of the Far-Right - Dr. Aaron Winter

In this powerful episode, we sit down with Dr. Aaron Winter, senior lecturer in sociology at Lancaster University and Director of the Centre for Alternatives to Social and Economic Inequalities (CASEI), to unpack the complex rise and normalization of far-right ideologies. From his personal roots in anti-racist activism to his research on racism, terrorism, and structural inequality, Dr. Winter explores how mainstream institutions, media, and political parties have helped legitimize far-right narratives. We discuss the myth of the “white working class” grievance, how race and class are falsely divided, the political misuse of populism, and the dangers of platforming hate under the guise of public discourse. An essential listen for anyone concerned about democracy, justice, and the future of inclusive politics.

Dr. Aaron Winter: https://www.lancaster.ac.uk/sociology/people/aaron-winter 

Transcript

(00:00:04):
Boys, girls and NBs, welcome back to the Smooth Brain Society.

(00:00:08):
Today we'll be with Dr.

(00:00:10):
Aaron Winter,

(00:00:11):
who is a senior lecturer in sociology and the director of the Center for

(00:00:16):
Alternatives to Social and Economic Inequalities at Lancaster University.

(00:00:20):
His research is on the far right,

(00:00:22):
with a focus on racism,

(00:00:24):
historical change,

(00:00:25):
mainstreaming,

(00:00:26):
terrorism and counterterrorism.

(00:00:28):
He has advised a range of organizations,

(00:00:30):
governmental bodies,

(00:00:31):
local councils,

(00:00:32):
and educational institutions on issues related to racism and the far right,

(00:00:36):
and has frequently appeared on various different media channels.

(00:00:39):
I'm not going to name them all,

(00:00:40):
but some are BBC,

(00:00:42):
NBC,

(00:00:43):
LBC,

(00:00:43):
France 24,

(00:00:43):
The Guardian,

(00:00:46):
New Statesman,

(00:00:47):
Al Jazeera,

(00:00:48):
The Huffington Post,

(00:00:49):
and The Washington Post.

(00:00:50):
So thank you so much, Aaron, for coming on and talking to us today.

(00:00:54):
Thanks for having me.

(00:00:56):
And for those who are new to the show,

(00:00:58):
we always have a co-host on who has no idea about the topic because we're talking

(00:01:03):
to a Lancaster University researcher.

(00:01:04):
We've got Neil Morrison back on.

(00:01:06):
So Neil, thank you for coming back.

(00:01:07):
My pleasure.

(00:01:09):
And yeah, so let's get into it.

(00:01:12):
So I guess the first thing I should ask you,

(00:01:14):
Aaron,

(00:01:15):
is what sort of got you interested in sort of studying racism,

(00:01:20):
counterterrorism,

(00:01:20):
all these sort of things?

(00:01:22):
What was your sort of journey into it?

(00:01:24):
It's been quite a long journey.

(00:01:27):
And I could probably trace it back to childhood.

(00:01:30):
I grew up the grandchild of Holocaust survivors.

(00:01:35):
heard stories, I guess, experienced some of the sort of collective trauma.

(00:01:42):
But I also lived in a very diverse neighborhood during a period where Canada had a

(00:01:54):
great deal of tension between its liberal self-image and

(00:01:58):
and the rising of the far right.

(00:02:02):
And during my teenage years, there was a huge skinhead revival.

(00:02:08):
And I call it a revival because it was a revival of what was going on in Britain.

(00:02:12):
But a few years later in Canada, they often got really confused over their flags and symbolism.

(00:02:19):
And I...

(00:02:23):
I was part of a sort of anti-racist, anti-fascist, I guess, subculture, if you will.

(00:02:29):
And it got me thinking about not just racism and the injustice,

(00:02:36):
whether it be my family or my friends and other people experienced,

(00:02:41):
but seeing the ways in which racism and racist violence would emerge from states,

(00:02:50):
from governments,

(00:02:53):
from within law enforcement,

(00:02:54):
within the systems,

(00:02:55):
structures,

(00:02:56):
institutions of the society we lived in,

(00:02:58):
as well as on the street.

(00:03:01):
And it was interesting as a Canadian,

(00:03:03):
and I think this is partly because of its liberal self-image,

(00:03:06):
when we were in school and we learned about racism,

(00:03:08):
we learned about the Japanese internment.

(00:03:11):
in California, but not in Canada.

(00:03:13):
We learned about the Ku Klux Klan and read To Kill a Mockingbird,

(00:03:17):
but we didn't learn about what had happened in Canada as a sort of white settler

(00:03:24):
colonial society.

(00:03:28):
And I became fascinated by these disparate or what seemed like disparate

(00:03:34):
manifestations or articulations of racism

(00:03:38):
that were often played off each other.

(00:03:39):
And I couldn't articulate it as such at the time,

(00:03:42):
but the way in which Canadians saw Americans as racist or the way in which the

(00:03:49):
alarm about skinheads on the streets in Canada was also about youth and was also

(00:03:56):
about class.

(00:03:58):
And I was wondering about how this is kind of managed or explained,

(00:04:05):
how racism is explained in society and how it's experienced differently.

(00:04:10):
And I think fast forward to my undergraduate,

(00:04:15):
I decided because I was often,

(00:04:17):
I guess,

(00:04:17):
accused of being political,

(00:04:19):
I decided to enroll in political science,

(00:04:22):
taking the term way too literally.

(00:04:25):
And I wanted to study, I guess, racism.

(00:04:29):
extreme politics, racist politics, nationalist politics.

(00:04:34):
And I found there was a very state-centered kind of approach that we looked at how

(00:04:39):
this manifests in elections,

(00:04:41):
how states manage issues like migration.

(00:04:44):
And for me,

(00:04:45):
the idea of managing migration was part of my family's story and trauma of being

(00:04:53):
turned away when escaping.

(00:04:55):
from Nazi occupied Europe.

(00:04:59):
And so I,

(00:05:00):
I would then,

(00:05:01):
I then eventually moved to sociology where I am now because I wanted to understand

(00:05:05):
the way people experienced and articulated and negotiated racism and the way in

(00:05:14):
which,

(00:05:14):
um,

(00:05:16):
the ability to deal with things on a social,

(00:05:21):
interpersonal level were always either managed by the state,

(00:05:28):
who was seen as,

(00:05:30):
I guess,

(00:05:30):
the best honest broker,

(00:05:32):
which I found quite odd,

(00:05:34):
or blamed on individuals.

(00:05:38):
And the social was somewhat in the middle there as this sort of unchartered territory.

(00:05:48):
Oh,

(00:05:51):
that's funny how you said that Canada kind of gave this sort of like hiding its own

(00:05:58):
crimes kind of thing.

(00:05:59):
Sort of this idea of not sort of like pointing the finger at someone else being

(00:06:06):
like,

(00:06:07):
oh,

(00:06:07):
they were this,

(00:06:07):
but not necessarily acknowledging your own part in the same act.

(00:06:14):
Yeah.

(00:06:15):
The KKK one,

(00:06:16):
which you mentioned,

(00:06:18):
I know,

(00:06:18):
so I'm from New Zealand and I know that there were,

(00:06:21):
New Zealand had its own branch of the KKK and they went and burnt down immigrant

(00:06:25):
shops and all these things in the 50s.

(00:06:27):
But then it's just like swept under the rug being like, no, no, no, no, no.

(00:06:31):
That's just an American thing.

(00:06:32):
Never happened here.

(00:06:35):
It's interesting because I wouldn't have thought Canada...

(00:06:38):
of having a problem.

(00:06:39):
I think you're absolutely right.

(00:06:41):
That liberal view of Canada of being kind of the best of British and American put together.

(00:06:48):
I had no idea that it was like a skin,

(00:06:50):
I'm roughly the same age,

(00:06:52):
no idea there was kind of a skinhead kind of movement in Canada at all.

(00:06:58):
Yeah,

(00:06:58):
I mean,

(00:06:59):
it's,

(00:07:00):
and again,

(00:07:00):
when you say the best of America and British,

(00:07:05):
what you have is often sort of like a white dominant society that is settler

(00:07:11):
colonial,

(00:07:12):
but still maintains its ties to empire.

(00:07:14):
Hmm.

(00:07:16):
And this is where the racism is and the white supremacy is,

(00:07:20):
is constitutive to who and what Canada is.

(00:07:24):
The fact that it's a multicultural immigration society has a lot to do with its,

(00:07:32):
with,

(00:07:33):
you know,

(00:07:33):
space,

(00:07:34):
with particular policies,

(00:07:36):
which,

(00:07:36):
which also relate to the,

(00:07:41):
Canada's own needs and which communities are prioritized at any given time.

(00:07:48):
You know,

(00:07:49):
I say this as someone who's,

(00:07:51):
you know,

(00:07:51):
my family was trying to escape,

(00:07:53):
escape Nazism and before that pogroms in Russia.

(00:07:59):
And when they tried to get in,

(00:08:01):
in the,

(00:08:02):
in the 19,

(00:08:02):
I guess the 1930s,

(00:08:04):
there was a sort of none is too many policy that,

(00:08:08):
that,

(00:08:09):
you know,

(00:08:11):
We don't want them.

(00:08:13):
And boats were turned away and people ended up in their deaths.

(00:08:18):
Now you see, I mean, I can see it ongoing now in Canada and in the US as well.

(00:08:25):
And here I would actually argue that the immigration is being attacked by

(00:08:30):
not just by the far right,

(00:08:32):
but by mainstream actors who are going,

(00:08:35):
actually,

(00:08:36):
the immigrants we had previously were so liberal and tolerant.

(00:08:40):
They were willing to integrate.

(00:08:41):
They were willing to learn the language.

(00:08:43):
It's the new ones who are illiberal and hate.

(00:08:47):
And they often place,

(00:08:48):
they often make arguments which say the current batch or the current group,

(00:08:54):
or however they objectify them and dehumanize them,

(00:08:58):
are anti-Semitic.

(00:08:59):
And it ended up that my family,

(00:09:01):
who would have gotten a hard time then,

(00:09:03):
are now treated as the reason we shouldn't let new ones in.

(00:09:09):
And that is a way in which a country like Canada kind of,

(00:09:14):
I guess,

(00:09:15):
protects itself from the accusation that it's racist because it's protecting other

(00:09:20):
communities,

(00:09:21):
but also has this idea that it's saving people.

(00:09:25):
And protecting people.

(00:09:27):
And it's not as bad as America.

(00:09:30):
Or not as bad as Britain's hostile environment.

(00:09:33):
It's not as bad as Trump's Muslim ban.

(00:09:35):
Britain's hostile environment.

(00:09:37):
And what's never spoken is Australian point system.

(00:09:40):
Because Canada's long had a point system.

(00:09:43):
One in which privileges.

(00:09:45):
Knowledge...

(00:09:46):
Economy migrants of a particular class and fulfilling particular roles in

(00:09:52):
professionalized sort of professionalized middle class Canada.

(00:09:59):
as opposed to those who may be escaping or,

(00:10:04):
you know,

(00:10:05):
needing,

(00:10:07):
you know,

(00:10:08):
fulfilling what would be called entry level or unskilled jobs.

(00:10:12):
I don't believe in the idea of unskilled labor anyway.

(00:10:16):
And you end up finding a sort of like a racism,

(00:10:19):
which is mitigated by classism or class privilege,

(00:10:25):
in fact.

(00:10:28):
So would you say sort of the rise of the far right is perhaps more limited to kind

(00:10:35):
of a working class background or because that mitigation within the middle classes

(00:10:40):
is,

(00:10:41):
you know,

(00:10:42):
immigration to them is we get a cheap nanny,

(00:10:45):
good plumber,

(00:10:46):
you know,

(00:10:47):
that kind of thing.

(00:10:49):
Is there an undercurrent of far right racism growing within sort of the middle classes?

(00:10:56):
It's a very good question, and it's a really important one to unpack.

(00:11:02):
Oftentimes,

(00:11:04):
you have a society that says we're not racist because we let people with educations

(00:11:09):
and with capital in,

(00:11:10):
right?

(00:11:11):
Which is a class argument, not an anti-racist one.

(00:11:16):
Particularly when you're talking about the global south,

(00:11:18):
which is disproportionately,

(00:11:21):
you know,

(00:11:22):
less upwardly mobile in the terms that they want.

(00:11:28):
But the working class argument has also been one that has been central to the

(00:11:33):
mainstreaming of the far right.

(00:11:36):
And that is one in which we say this.

(00:11:38):
It's become a sort of a truism that the far right and racism are expressions of

(00:11:44):
legitimate concerns,

(00:11:45):
maybe misguided,

(00:11:47):
from the working class.

(00:11:49):
And we have to represent or acknowledge their fears, their anxieties, their grievances.

(00:11:55):
Otherwise, the far right will get into government or take to the streets.

(00:12:01):
It's interesting saying this in 2025 when we've made this argument that has led to

(00:12:07):
the ongoing platforming of the far right again and again and again and their ideas,

(00:12:13):
even in ways that say that,

(00:12:15):
you know,

(00:12:15):
a Keir Starmer or Hillary Clinton previously would say,

(00:12:19):
you know,

(00:12:20):
they would make comments about controlling immigration to stop the threat of the

(00:12:25):
far right.

(00:12:28):
But what's ended up happening is the far right has been on the ascent the more this

(00:12:31):
argument is made.

(00:12:33):
And they've taken to the streets, too, because they're both legitimized and emboldened.

(00:12:38):
And look, I mean, who's going to represent an anti-immigrant position better than the far right?

(00:12:42):
I mean, you know, a centrist party is never going to do that job.

(00:12:45):
What they're doing is they're feeding it.

(00:12:47):
They're legitimizing it.

(00:12:48):
They're mainstreaming it.

(00:12:50):
Now,

(00:12:50):
to go back to the class argument,

(00:12:52):
I believe that's one of the biggest and most dangerous fallacies.

(00:12:56):
Firstly,

(00:12:56):
because the working class,

(00:12:59):
as far as I'm concerned,

(00:13:00):
are not racist and are not racist and potentially extremist.

(00:13:06):
In fact, to say that is completely stigmatizing, scapegoating, and classist.

(00:13:13):
The other thing is, I think that's one argument.

(00:13:16):
The second argument is the working class,

(00:13:19):
when they're using this term about the left behind,

(00:13:21):
the working class,

(00:13:22):
the white,

(00:13:23):
they're talking about the white working class.

(00:13:25):
And they're rendering the working class with grievances to the white constituency.

(00:13:31):
And they're targeting and scapegoating them for racism in society.

(00:13:36):
And they're scapegoating particularly working class migrants.

(00:13:44):
And the working class is the most diverse class.

(00:13:47):
If you have an issue of the working class being left behind by,

(00:13:51):
you know,

(00:13:51):
neoliberal capitalism,

(00:13:53):
globalization,

(00:13:54):
et cetera,

(00:13:54):
whatever you want to say,

(00:13:57):
this would have to be the whole working class.

(00:13:58):
And in fact, the white working class doesn't also experience racism, you know?

(00:14:03):
And

(00:14:06):
So this shows,

(00:14:07):
I guess,

(00:14:08):
a sort of the disingenuousness of the argument,

(00:14:11):
but also why it's a fallacy.

(00:14:13):
What they've done is constructed a white victim or grievance narrative that can be

(00:14:18):
shared across all white communities,

(00:14:21):
not just working class ones.

(00:14:23):
And if you make it about class, that class is the most diverse.

(00:14:26):
You'd have to be more inclusive.

(00:14:29):
The other and third point is why this is problematic,

(00:14:32):
even if it may be true on an individual level.

(00:14:36):
is that it's on the back of a decade and a half of austerity in this country and

(00:14:46):
longer term deindustrialization and the erosion of labor rights and the welfare

(00:14:51):
state.

(00:14:53):
If people are feeling left behind and are having trouble getting jobs,

(00:14:57):
competing for jobs,

(00:14:57):
getting a living wage,

(00:14:59):
that's on government,

(00:15:00):
that's not on migrants.

(00:15:02):
And you'll see the governments and the political actors who make these arguments,

(00:15:07):
are also the ones making increasing cuts,

(00:15:10):
whether it be the Tories before or labor right now with renewed austerity and the

(00:15:17):
selling off of the NHS,

(00:15:19):
cuts to the NHS,

(00:15:23):
a lack of controls on energy prices,

(00:15:26):
on food prices.

(00:15:27):
So even if they think

(00:15:32):
It is the white working class who are most aggrieved.

(00:15:36):
They're not addressing any of those grievances.

(00:15:38):
They're addressing racism.

(00:15:40):
And they're saying,

(00:15:41):
let me take your rights,

(00:15:43):
resources,

(00:15:45):
dignity,

(00:15:47):
and give you some racism as your wage.

(00:15:52):
And that is unsustainable.

(00:15:55):
It hurts even those people.

(00:15:58):
who may claim that migrants are to blame,

(00:16:01):
but it doesn't hurt anyone as much as it hurts migrants and those on the sharp end

(00:16:05):
of both those social,

(00:16:09):
political and economic policies and the mainstreaming of the far right.

(00:16:14):
And I think it's important to note that the construction of a white victim

(00:16:17):
narrative,

(00:16:17):
even if it's based on a material kind of evidence base,

(00:16:20):
like,

(00:16:21):
you know,

(00:16:21):
there's a cost of living crisis,

(00:16:24):
has been a far right argument.

(00:16:26):
Enoch Powell made it.

(00:16:28):
68.

(00:16:31):
The BNP made it in the 2000s.

(00:16:35):
What I find interesting is why,

(00:16:37):
given that there is an economic crisis and people are struggling,

(00:16:42):
that's clearly the reason for disenfranchisement generally.

(00:16:46):
Absolutely.

(00:16:46):
What is it that makes those people more likely to go to the far right than perhaps

(00:16:52):
an authoritarian far left?

(00:16:55):
because they both provide simple answers for,

(00:16:59):
for complicated questions,

(00:17:00):
but it's feels at the moment we're moving more to the right than the left.

(00:17:05):
I think, I mean, I think it's true.

(00:17:06):
We are, I think we're actually firmly on right wing ground right now.

(00:17:09):
Um, uh,

(00:17:13):
I think we need to unpack the idea of an authoritarian left because I don't think

(00:17:16):
the left has any power.

(00:17:19):
And I think that in fact, the idea that the, that the far, that the, the idea of the far left,

(00:17:28):
has been an idea that has been used to kind of chip away at even the sort of the

(00:17:33):
center left in this country and in the U.S.

(00:17:36):
and I think elsewhere.

(00:17:38):
But I think why would they go to the far right?

(00:17:41):
Well, I think what you're talking about is people who are not just disenfranchised and agreed.

(00:17:47):
I mean, many of them don't go anywhere.

(00:17:50):
They're dealing with problems at home and problems in the workplace.

(00:17:56):
You even see this when polls are done about what people are concerned about.

(00:18:00):
If you say, what concerns you about your nation?

(00:18:05):
That people will say, well, you know, I'm concerned about immigration and terrorism.

(00:18:09):
And, you know, if you ask them what concerns them in their homes, they'll say, you know,

(00:18:17):
Jobs, heating, food, health care.

(00:18:23):
And so I think it's important to note that the threat of the far right,

(00:18:28):
which is quite serious,

(00:18:31):
has been amplified again and again and again by mainstream media and politicians in

(00:18:36):
ways that have made it almost inevitable.

(00:18:39):
It doesn't mean people are going to them because what we're seeing is people going

(00:18:43):
and still voting for like,

(00:18:45):
you know,

(00:18:45):
a Labour Party or a Tory party that has slightly more moderate versions of their

(00:18:53):
positions.

(00:18:54):
Now, if there was a crisis in politics...

(00:18:58):
They wouldn't be going there.

(00:18:59):
And there is abstention.

(00:19:00):
And there is abstention amongst the most disenfranchised.

(00:19:04):
So I don't think the argument can be made that it's the most disenfranchised who

(00:19:09):
are even voting.

(00:19:10):
So we don't know what they're going to do.

(00:19:13):
We don't know who they're going to support, whether they are going to the far right.

(00:19:16):
The far right would like you to believe that.

(00:19:18):
The mainstream media would like you to believe that.

(00:19:22):
And the mainstream establishment parties would like you to believe that that's possible.

(00:19:28):
And that's a way of securing their position against competition.

(00:19:33):
And unfortunately, that they see their greatest competition as the far right.

(00:19:38):
And so what you have is you have two establishment parties playing out a

(00:19:43):
competition for votes and support.

(00:19:46):
based on a series of false assumptions with a far right that makes far right

(00:19:51):
politics around immigration,

(00:19:53):
around Islam,

(00:19:54):
and a bunch of issues,

(00:19:57):
the only game in town.

(00:20:00):
And so are people going to go to that?

(00:20:02):
Yeah, but that doesn't mean they would have otherwise gone or gone to the far right.

(00:20:07):
That's the way it's being narrativized.

(00:20:10):
I think a problem linked to that

(00:20:13):
is we've been told that we're in a populist era.

(00:20:16):
The far right is giving the people an alternative that no one else is giving them.

(00:20:22):
Well, two problems with that.

(00:20:23):
Why aren't we being told about other alternatives?

(00:20:25):
What about the green party?

(00:20:27):
You know, who got four seats to reforms five at the election.

(00:20:31):
Um, but also, um,

(00:20:34):
The construction of an alternative,

(00:20:36):
which is only on the right,

(00:20:37):
which everyone else panders to,

(00:20:40):
creates the actual or perpetuates the crisis of democracy by creating a system that

(00:20:45):
is like basically all politicians are saying the same thing.

(00:20:49):
The problem is they're saying something that's increasingly dangerous.

(00:20:53):
It needs to be opposed.

(00:20:54):
And only once we have a serious acknowledgement of or support for alternatives can

(00:21:01):
we know what people are going to do.

(00:21:04):
Or why they might go to the far right and not the left.

(00:21:09):
I mean,

(00:21:09):
the central to this is not just the far right,

(00:21:13):
but central to this is the Labour Party,

(00:21:15):
which is traditionally the party of the left,

(00:21:19):
which has been attacking its own left flank.

(00:21:23):
Quite viciously,

(00:21:25):
including through disciplinary measures,

(00:21:28):
but making an argument that they are the traditional party of,

(00:21:33):
you know,

(00:21:34):
the working class and they're losing it.

(00:21:36):
Well, we don't know why they're losing it.

(00:21:38):
They've decided it's because they're not against immigration enough.

(00:21:42):
I don't think traditionally that's what working class people vote for.

(00:21:48):
The Labour Party or the left-wing party would have to offer a lot more choice to

(00:21:52):
determine why people are abandoning them or not.

(00:21:57):
Do you think...

(00:22:01):
Because I kind of look at the Labour Party and think of it back in the 80s,

(00:22:04):
certainly more left wing and certainly a lot more focused on class rather than

(00:22:10):
race.

(00:22:12):
Do you think there's something in the Labour Party that has changed over those 30,

(00:22:16):
40 years that has kind of stopped focusing a little bit on class issues like food

(00:22:21):
on the table,

(00:22:23):
work,

(00:22:23):
employment,

(00:22:24):
all those things?

(00:22:26):
And just almost forgotten that and forgotten their sort of core base.

(00:22:30):
And then now sort of reaping the rewards a little rewards,

(00:22:34):
reaping the whirlwind a little bit for that.

(00:22:37):
Yeah,

(00:22:37):
well,

(00:22:38):
I think it's I don't think they focused on I mean,

(00:22:42):
when they focused on class,

(00:22:43):
this is based on the assumption that that working class people are white.

(00:22:48):
So that's not not focusing on race.

(00:22:51):
Yeah.

(00:22:51):
But I think if you fast forward to,

(00:22:55):
I guess,

(00:22:55):
the third way,

(00:22:56):
new labor period,

(00:22:58):
it's not that they replaced class with race.

(00:23:02):
They replaced a concern for class with a concern for what corporations and industry did.

(00:23:13):
I mean, this was a neoliberal project, right?

(00:23:16):
This was a project that repackaged Thatcherism, right?

(00:23:22):
where it's not about the individual,

(00:23:23):
it's about society,

(00:23:25):
social mobilization,

(00:23:26):
like social mobility,

(00:23:27):
but like collectively,

(00:23:29):
but like not in any socialist terms.

(00:23:33):
But what you end up having is liberal affectations of multiculturalism,

(00:23:40):
which is a state managed project that is not actually representative of both the

(00:23:46):
real diversity of race,

(00:23:49):
racism and anti-racism.

(00:23:52):
Or one that addresses the working class status of so many racialized people.

(00:23:58):
So if you abandon class, you're actually abandoning race.

(00:24:02):
And I think it's really important.

(00:24:04):
I'm saying this as a sociologist who's very indebted to Stuart Hall.

(00:24:07):
I mean,

(00:24:09):
you know,

(00:24:10):
race is how,

(00:24:12):
I mean,

(00:24:13):
to paraphrase him,

(00:24:15):
you know,

(00:24:17):
race is the modality in which classes lived.

(00:24:21):
I mean, it's not merely that you have class or you have race.

(00:24:24):
And I think central to the mainstreaming of the far right has been the division

(00:24:30):
between these two things.

(00:24:32):
And what I've seen lately,

(00:24:34):
I've seen this time and time again in my research,

(00:24:37):
the way in which not just far right actors,

(00:24:40):
but mainstream actors will divide race and class in ways that

(00:24:46):
that treat racialized people as if they're in league with the elites and working

(00:24:54):
class people being white and in league with the populace to represent them.

(00:25:00):
This is an absolute false dichotomy.

(00:25:02):
It's a false construction.

(00:25:04):
It discounts the role of, I mean, the class position of so many racialized people, migrants.

(00:25:12):
The history of anti-racism and anti-fascism within those communities with amongst

(00:25:17):
white and racialized working class people.

(00:25:21):
This is an absolute false construction that actually divides the working class in

(00:25:26):
ways that are very helpful to maintain a sort of like,

(00:25:31):
you know,

(00:25:32):
elite capitalist system.

(00:25:35):
in which a lot of those capitalists,

(00:25:38):
a lot of those elites are also making arguments that they're the populist against

(00:25:43):
the elites.

(00:25:44):
And of course, as academics, we'd be the elites, right?

(00:25:46):
I mean, just, you know...

(00:25:49):
you know, particularly if we make such arguments.

(00:25:53):
But it's a hugely problematic thing because it tends to do a structural and political analysis.

(00:26:01):
And what it does is divide people in convenient ways that benefit some and really,

(00:26:07):
really harm others.

(00:26:11):
I wanted to...

(00:26:13):
ask another another thing about sort of age as well into this because we saw oh

(00:26:19):
well I guess we see a lot of younger people particularly younger men moving towards

(00:26:27):
sort of more far-right sort of politics a lot of reform UK voters at least on what

(00:26:34):
I see on my screens seem to be young men Trump has a massive influence with like

(00:26:40):
UFC young young men

(00:26:44):
India as well a lot of supporters of Narendra Modi are young men so sort of we're

(00:26:52):
getting into we've already spoken about race and sort of class but then we're also

(00:26:58):
getting into sort of divides between age and sex as well in this regard aren't we

(00:27:06):
yeah

(00:27:09):
Yeah.

(00:27:09):
And I think the point you're making,

(00:27:10):
I mean,

(00:27:11):
I'm,

(00:27:12):
I think there's several things going on with the youth issue.

(00:27:14):
I mean,

(00:27:15):
the gender thing,

(00:27:15):
I'm not,

(00:27:16):
it's not surprising,

(00:27:17):
particularly because of how much sort of traditional kind of like,

(00:27:21):
um,

(00:27:22):
conservative family values and patriarchal ideas are operating within that sphere i

(00:27:29):
mean if the idea that white working class people are left behind and aggrieved is

(00:27:34):
also a very gendered argument it's about it's partly about the last lot the the

(00:27:42):
loss or perceived loss of white male privilege

(00:27:46):
And that's why the class argument helps because it undercuts or undermines any

(00:27:51):
notion of privilege.

(00:27:53):
But it also means that with jobs being lost or people losing pay,

(00:28:02):
they lose their status in society if your identity is wrapped up with your labor

(00:28:08):
position.

(00:28:10):
which it is if you identify often as the working class or you're identified with

(00:28:16):
your class and your historical labor position.

(00:28:21):
You know, closing down factories doesn't do this.

(00:28:23):
Migrants doesn't do.

(00:28:24):
You know, I mean, this is absolutely ridiculous.

(00:28:29):
But the thing about young people, so I have several thoughts on it.

(00:28:35):
I don't know where I land in different contexts, right?

(00:28:41):
and I can't speak to the Indian context in this, but I do, I do, I've read about it.

(00:28:48):
It's just not my research area.

(00:28:51):
But the, you have something interesting going on.

(00:28:54):
So around Brexit,

(00:28:54):
it was all like older people,

(00:28:57):
the older generation,

(00:28:58):
the older generation,

(00:28:59):
the young are going to have to live with those choices.

(00:29:03):
And it was this assumption that all older people,

(00:29:08):
I mean,

(00:29:09):
in a sense,

(00:29:10):
it's a very ageist argument,

(00:29:12):
but it's also an argument that sees Jenner was built onto the nostalgia narrative

(00:29:18):
of Brexit.

(00:29:19):
Didn't mean those were the people who were all voting for it or the majority or like that.

(00:29:24):
It was a narrative that also gets played out and going like things have changed too

(00:29:28):
much for some people.

(00:29:29):
And in some arguments, and we've seen this a lot about analysis of Trump and Brexit, it was

(00:29:36):
middle-aged working class men,

(00:29:39):
allegedly,

(00:29:40):
allegedly working class,

(00:29:41):
but definitely men,

(00:29:42):
who had seen the world change and they were uncomfortable with it.

(00:29:49):
You see this in the Goodwin and Ford argument, the Hochschild argument about Trumpism.

(00:29:57):
But then on the other side,

(00:29:59):
you see this whole talk about far-right radicalization and it's youth,

(00:30:02):
youth,

(00:30:03):
youth,

(00:30:03):
youth.

(00:30:05):
Right.

(00:30:05):
So, and the question is, how do you play that out?

(00:30:09):
Well, we actually have arguments for every single generation or cohort being involved.

(00:30:16):
I struggle more with the argument about youth because,

(00:30:21):
and I've been doing a lot on this in past number of weeks about research on the

(00:30:26):
riots,

(00:30:27):
for example,

(00:30:27):
that occurred last summer.

(00:30:28):
Um,

(00:30:31):
The South Park riots.

(00:30:33):
Yeah, in 2024.

(00:30:35):
Everyone's talking about young people, online, AI.

(00:30:44):
And I'm watching a country in the broadsheets,

(00:30:48):
in the tabloids,

(00:30:50):
on television,

(00:30:51):
in parliament,

(00:30:53):
talk about asylum seekers,

(00:30:54):
talk about migrants,

(00:30:56):
talk about Muslims in very particular ways,

(00:30:59):
and legitimize the narrative of

(00:31:01):
that this is the threat.

(00:31:03):
Everything from grooming gangs to jobs to communities changing.

(00:31:08):
And I'm saying how convenient it is that a bunch of adults writing in traditional

(00:31:12):
mainstream media are talking about online kids.

(00:31:18):
That seems a bit suspicious.

(00:31:20):
You know, it sounds a bit, it's not to say that that isn't a factor.

(00:31:24):
I mean, I would go back to the show.

(00:31:25):
I don't know if you've seen the series adolescence.

(00:31:29):
which was on,

(00:31:29):
and I'm a huge Stephen Graham fan,

(00:31:31):
but I was watching that series and going,

(00:31:35):
how are they making something about misogyny where it's about kids and the

(00:31:43):
internet,

(00:31:44):
not adults who largely commit those acts,

(00:31:49):
and social media,

(00:31:52):
and there is literally no female point of view.

(00:32:00):
I mean,

(00:32:00):
it was about the entire sympathies of the nation and wider because it's in other

(00:32:05):
countries as well are literally on the perpetrator.

(00:32:11):
And that doesn't mean that kids,

(00:32:14):
young kids,

(00:32:15):
male or female are experienced or,

(00:32:17):
or however they may identify are struggling.

(00:32:24):
But to make it all about like,

(00:32:28):
Young boys,

(00:32:30):
male,

(00:32:31):
white,

(00:32:32):
and not talk about any of the mainstream forces at play or structures and systems

(00:32:39):
like patriarchy.

(00:32:40):
We see the same thing with racism.

(00:32:42):
Like,

(00:32:42):
you know,

(00:32:43):
if you,

(00:32:44):
you know,

(00:32:45):
that all the sympathies seem to be on the perpetrator group as aggrieved.

(00:32:50):
And then we have to act.

(00:32:52):
And the fact that the prime minister,

(00:32:55):
Keir Starmer,

(00:32:55):
basically wanted to hold sort of wanted to show adolescents in schools.

(00:33:00):
It's not an educational video.

(00:33:01):
I mean, it's just not.

(00:33:03):
I'm saying this as an educator and a father of two young boys.

(00:33:10):
It doesn't give an understanding of misogyny or sexism.

(00:33:15):
It doesn't give an accurate understanding of how these are the relationships,

(00:33:19):
how this spreads through and in and out of the online ecosystems.

(00:33:24):
But also then soon after he's giving a speech,

(00:33:28):
which echoes Enoch Powell's rivers of blood speech.

(00:33:33):
Which has long been a speech and a figure who has been the watchword for things going too far.

(00:33:43):
Or bad ideas and bad actors we've defeated.

(00:33:47):
This shows me how unserious we are about dealing with racism, misogyny, extremism.

(00:33:57):
Um...

(00:33:59):
And I think that's what really concerns me.

(00:34:01):
And I guess I'd go back to the class argument.

(00:34:06):
If you want to help young men, help them.

(00:34:11):
If you want to help working class people, help them.

(00:34:14):
They shouldn't have to be white.

(00:34:16):
They shouldn't have to be perpetrators.

(00:34:18):
And they shouldn't have to kill someone or be at risk of killing someone before you

(00:34:23):
care about people's socioeconomic inequality or mental health.

(00:34:30):
So does it all come back to social inequality in the end at its heart?

(00:34:34):
If we could solve that in some magic way, would that stop the rise of extremism?

(00:34:42):
Is that really the core of what's needed is a better social contract with people?

(00:34:48):
I think that's needed regardless.

(00:34:52):
I'm also a sociologist, so I work on inequalities.

(00:34:57):
But I say that as a person, too.

(00:34:59):
It's what led me to sociology.

(00:35:01):
I would say this.

(00:35:04):
I don't want to say that there is a magic thing we can do that's going to make all

(00:35:08):
this go away and we're going to be a great,

(00:35:11):
harmonious society.

(00:35:16):
It's not that I don't have...

(00:35:18):
faith in people it's that the systems are very corrupted to make this happen the

(00:35:24):
systems that would be needed to make this happen you know um we're we're far cry

(00:35:29):
from getting sort of like you know um billionaires to pay taxes you know um but the

(00:35:37):
um i think i would say three things to that one is what we're doing is making it

(00:35:44):
worse

(00:35:45):
And the far right is getting worse at the same time that inequalities are growing.

(00:35:51):
That says something.

(00:35:53):
The second thing is, and I've long argued this.

(00:35:55):
I mean, this has been a sort of like a thread throughout my work.

(00:35:58):
Um,

(00:36:00):
and even as a teenager how i saw the far right um although it's become i guess more

(00:36:05):
evidence-led and more kind of like nuanced that the far right has often been

(00:36:10):
treated as a proxy for all our inequalities and injustices they're the sexist

(00:36:15):
they're the racist they're you know um they're the homophobes they're you know um

(00:36:24):
I would say other things,

(00:36:25):
but I think society takes a good deal of responsibility for transphobia.

(00:36:31):
But that they've been treated as the proxy for that,

(00:36:38):
and fighting it is led by those systems,

(00:36:43):
institutions,

(00:36:44):
and agencies,

(00:36:46):
which are themselves institutionally racist,

(00:36:49):
institutionally sexist,

(00:36:51):
and are combating these without reflecting on reviewing or changing what's going on inside.

(00:36:59):
So,

(00:36:59):
for example,

(00:37:00):
if the police are institutionally racist and they're tasked with dealing with

(00:37:04):
far-right riots,

(00:37:08):
without stopping a focus on Black youth,

(00:37:14):
Muslims,

(00:37:15):
And the policing of of racialized communities in ways that make them suspect

(00:37:21):
communities that legitimizes far right discourses.

(00:37:24):
How really are we going to tackle racism?

(00:37:27):
Like, how is that possible?

(00:37:29):
We're not.

(00:37:30):
We're displacing it onto something extreme.

(00:37:32):
So as long as we continue to do that,

(00:37:34):
we don't even look at the ingrained structural and systemic inequalities and

(00:37:39):
injustices.

(00:37:41):
So what we would need to do,

(00:37:42):
I think,

(00:37:43):
is refocus our attention and stop using the far right as a proxy,

(00:37:48):
a scapegoat,

(00:37:49):
or foot soldiers to enforce it.

(00:37:52):
And we saw this par excellence during the Nosley Merseyside attack on the hotel,

(00:37:59):
where you actually had the far right being not only mobilized and emboldened by

(00:38:04):
government policy,

(00:38:05):
but being encouraged by the Home Secretary.

(00:38:12):
How do you mean encouraged?

(00:38:14):
Oh,

(00:38:16):
the idea that this was whipped up by a targeting of so-called grooming gangs and

(00:38:24):
asylum seekers staying in hotels in local deprived communities,

(00:38:29):
which this is a government policy like this.

(00:38:32):
And,

(00:38:32):
I mean,

(00:38:34):
you had politicians and the media saying we have to understand these people's

(00:38:37):
grievances.

(00:38:38):
These were not grievances which were born...

(00:38:43):
of deep structural inequality.

(00:38:44):
These are grievances which were honed.

(00:38:47):
They were rehearsed in the media, in Parliament, in campaign speeches again and again and again.

(00:38:55):
And I mean,

(00:38:56):
for example,

(00:38:56):
Suella Braverman was also seen as doing this when far-right mobilized on Armistice

(00:39:06):
Day in London,

(00:39:08):
2023,

(00:39:08):
when they attacked

(00:39:12):
pro-Palestinian activists and a national march for Palestine and actually attacked

(00:39:20):
the police as well.

(00:39:24):
And so what you're seeing is politicians using the far right

(00:39:29):
And then often securitizing them when they become an uncomfortable reality or they

(00:39:34):
become too close for comfort.

(00:39:36):
We see this again and again and again.

(00:39:37):
You see this, the entire history of the far right is made up of this.

(00:39:40):
You saw this in the 1870s.

(00:39:45):
1950s and 60s with the Ku Klux Klan in America,

(00:39:50):
the way in which they declared the organization un-American and terrorist.

(00:39:56):
It was made up of like, you know, judges, teachers, doctors, you know, police officers.

(00:40:04):
And then you call them terrorists.

(00:40:06):
You use the iconography of the hood and everything like this and say, we've defeated them.

(00:40:11):
And what you end up doing is allowing society to carry on with its deeply

(00:40:15):
entrenched sort of systemic racism.

(00:40:21):
So just pushing it underground,

(00:40:23):
really,

(00:40:23):
at that point is taking it from an overt guy in a white hood burning a cross,

(00:40:29):
getting rid of that,

(00:40:30):
but not getting rid of the problem.

(00:40:31):
You're just hiding it.

(00:40:33):
Yes, 100%.

(00:40:35):
What I would say,

(00:40:36):
though,

(00:40:36):
is there's a theory about this that's somewhat linked that says,

(00:40:40):
like,

(00:40:40):
if we censor it,

(00:40:43):
if we criminalize it,

(00:40:45):
it's going to go underground and become worse.

(00:40:47):
First of all, I don't buy that argument.

(00:40:49):
But that argument has led to us going,

(00:40:50):
well,

(00:40:51):
we need to platform them,

(00:40:53):
because if we don't expose them to the disinfectant of light...

(00:40:58):
It'll go underground and get worse.

(00:40:59):
Well,

(00:41:00):
first of all,

(00:41:00):
it gets worse by platforming them again and their ideas again and again and again.

(00:41:04):
But what you're referring to,

(00:41:05):
I think,

(00:41:06):
is the idea of pushing it underground where it already was,

(00:41:09):
like it was already in the system.

(00:41:11):
And now you've got the worst of both worlds.

(00:41:13):
You've got systemic racism and anger, resentment and repression.

(00:41:19):
Well, if you get rid of the systemic racism or you try to deal with it,

(00:41:26):
You don't need to displace it all onto these people and bring them out and hide

(00:41:32):
them away again and again and again.

(00:41:34):
And I'm not acting as if an individual does this, but societies do this.

(00:41:39):
They do this.

(00:41:39):
In fact, we've seen a lot of the targeting of the far right in recent years, post-Brexit.

(00:41:45):
I say post-recent years, past decade.

(00:41:51):
When counter-extremism and counter-terrorism policies and practices are accused of

(00:41:56):
Islamophobia,

(00:41:57):
they go,

(00:41:57):
well,

(00:41:58):
we have more referrals of the far right now.

(00:42:00):
And then the right, there's a backlash to it.

(00:42:04):
But what they end up doing is the first group prescribed was national action.

(00:42:10):
They prescribed an explicitly neo-Nazi terrorist organization,

(00:42:17):
not one of the many violent Islamophobic ones or anti-migrant ones who shared way

(00:42:24):
too much politics with the mainstream.

(00:42:28):
And that's not a conspiracy.

(00:42:30):
It's shared interests.

(00:42:31):
That's how, you know, things work.

(00:42:34):
How politics works, yeah.

(00:42:35):
Yeah, yeah.

(00:42:37):
yeah so with with that what so at the moment we technically have a we have a labor

(00:42:42):
government in the uk which is left-wing government but you've pointed out again and

(00:42:46):
again how they uh well the enoch power rivers of blood speech keir starmer what

(00:42:54):
what was the word which he used island of strangers wasn't it island of strangers

(00:42:57):
yeah a couple days ago now um where do you see this sort of heading um

(00:43:07):
In the future,

(00:43:07):
because it doesn't look like Labour's changing any tact from the sort of party

(00:43:13):
which brought about the NHS to now the one which is sort of dismantling it.

(00:43:20):
Yeah, I say this often and I get quoted and it reads differently when it's out of context.

(00:43:26):
But I was like,

(00:43:27):
no matter what side of the political spectrum you're on,

(00:43:30):
this is an appeal,

(00:43:30):
right?

(00:43:32):
I'm like, you need to have opposition within politics, right?

(00:43:36):
So we need a party that is against the far right,

(00:43:40):
that is for migrant rights,

(00:43:42):
you know,

(00:43:43):
that is for human rights.

(00:43:44):
It is for the welfare state,

(00:43:47):
which is for the NHS,

(00:43:49):
which is for making life affordable and livable for everyone.

(00:43:57):
You know, not the divide and rule because the, you know, to distract and displace from it.

(00:44:02):
But I don't think it's just that the rivers of blood reference that makes the, makes things bad.

(00:44:12):
I think it's the evidence.

(00:44:14):
of how far we've gone and how difficult it's going to be to turn that tide.

(00:44:21):
For me,

(00:44:21):
this is not disconnected from the fact that we have a replay of new labor that is

(00:44:29):
attacking the very basis of social democracy of the left and its concerns for,

(00:44:39):
you know,

(00:44:40):
social welfare,

(00:44:41):
a social safety net.

(00:44:43):
I mean,

(00:44:43):
like,

(00:44:44):
we're not,

(00:44:45):
we're not asking for like,

(00:44:47):
you know,

(00:44:47):
you're not asking for the word you're asking,

(00:44:49):
you're asking for basic human sort of like dignity and the ability to function,

(00:44:56):
you know,

(00:44:56):
it's like,

(00:44:57):
and it's,

(00:44:57):
it's,

(00:44:58):
that's,

(00:44:58):
that's,

(00:44:59):
that's too far.

(00:45:00):
It's easier to,

(00:45:01):
it's easier to dehumanize a certain sector of society,

(00:45:05):
particularly if they're not originally from your society.

(00:45:09):
Um,

(00:45:10):
I'm saying this as someone who feels like, you know, I might be a stranger.

(00:45:14):
And as I said to you before,

(00:45:16):
that,

(00:45:16):
you know,

(00:45:17):
making people feel uncomfortable by my mere presence.

(00:45:21):
And I'm not one of the, I'm not a migrant on the sharp end of anything, you know.

(00:45:27):
But the,

(00:45:29):
I think it's the attack on the very foundations of labor politics that is occurring

(00:45:37):
within labor.

(00:45:39):
that is really, really dangerous.

(00:45:41):
Because it's not just that you have racism which distracts from socioeconomic inequality.

(00:45:47):
I don't want to treat racism as a distraction.

(00:45:50):
It is a fundamental and classed and gendered inequality.

(00:45:59):
But that...

(00:46:02):
it's a way of distracting from the very system that is needed to fight grievance

(00:46:13):
and fight inequality and injustice.

(00:46:15):
And I think that's where I'm at with it.

(00:46:17):
And the idea that every time I think,

(00:46:20):
so I've had these discussions many,

(00:46:21):
many times,

(00:46:23):
I'm traditionally a labor supporter,

(00:46:26):
that,

(00:46:27):
oh,

(00:46:27):
no,

(00:46:27):
no,

(00:46:27):
he's just saying that.

(00:46:29):
But when he takes office, it's going to change.

(00:46:33):
I've long said,

(00:46:34):
and this is based on my research as well as my reading of the political landscape,

(00:46:38):
that it wasn't going to happen.

(00:46:39):
But even if it did,

(00:46:41):
I don't trust people who are comfortable saying harmful,

(00:46:45):
racist things in order to get votes.

(00:46:49):
Because the harm is done when people have to listen again and again and again that

(00:46:53):
the politics of the country they live in,

(00:46:55):
they may have gained safety with it.

(00:46:58):
is treating them like a political pawn and is willing for political currency or

(00:47:03):
political collateral damage and will again and again and again say they are

(00:47:09):
terrible,

(00:47:10):
they are a threat.

(00:47:11):
That makes them non-people and it also puts them in danger in their neighborhoods.

(00:47:20):
And the fact that Starmer has only ramped it up

(00:47:26):
makes me very, very, like, very worried.

(00:47:30):
I mean, more so than I was previously.

(00:47:31):
And that's not to give,

(00:47:32):
not to deny that we need hope or to deny that I feel hope sometimes because I do

(00:47:37):
when I see marches and protests of solidarity in the name of,

(00:47:42):
you know,

(00:47:43):
human rights against genocide.

(00:47:47):
Yeah.

(00:47:49):
for migrant rights and refugee rights and asylum rights and for people coming

(00:47:55):
together when their neighbors are struggling.

(00:47:58):
That means a lot.

(00:48:00):
That's hope.

(00:48:01):
But there's also political players on the scene who are offering alternatives,

(00:48:06):
but they need the media space.

(00:48:09):
And they're not getting it because the media is really,

(00:48:11):
really attracted to who's the best and the worst racist.

(00:48:15):
Yeah.

(00:48:18):
I mean, it gets more clicks, I guess, right?

(00:48:23):
Yes.

(00:48:25):
Yes, I think you're right.

(00:48:27):
It's funny how the reactionaries,

(00:48:29):
when Black Lives Matter was getting all the clicks,

(00:48:31):
they were going,

(00:48:31):
well,

(00:48:31):
this is just...

(00:48:35):
But,

(00:48:35):
like...

(00:48:36):
This is just online warriors.

(00:48:38):
But, like... And a threat to our nation.

(00:48:43):
But the... That the...

(00:48:48):
The thing is,

(00:48:48):
is that I guess it runs parallel and it intersects with the political analysis,

(00:48:56):
is that if that's all anyone's offered,

(00:48:58):
of course,

(00:48:59):
it's going to get votes or clicks.

(00:49:03):
You have to offer something else to test.

(00:49:05):
I guess I'm saying this as a social scientist now, as a researcher.

(00:49:09):
You need a control.

(00:49:13):
There's just basically going, everyone's racist, and this is what the people want.

(00:49:18):
This is all you're giving them.

(00:49:21):
You're giving them racism and reaction.

(00:49:24):
Here's a question.

(00:49:25):
I should probably have asked this at the beginning,

(00:49:27):
Aaron,

(00:49:27):
but it will link back to what you've just said.

(00:49:32):
What would be your definition of a far right grouping or political system?

(00:49:38):
And given that the media has done this,

(00:49:40):
we've now got to a situation where 30 plus percent of people are voting for reform.

(00:49:45):
Reform is often referred to as a far right grouping.

(00:49:50):
Are there really 30% of the UK who would fit into far right?

(00:49:53):
Or is it a smaller group and then hangers on or understand a little bit about it or

(00:49:59):
don't understand that when it's far right?

(00:50:01):
What's that kind of mix?

(00:50:03):
Because it always feels uncomfortable to me when,

(00:50:05):
you know,

(00:50:06):
far right party,

(00:50:07):
that's 30% of the population.

(00:50:08):
That's,

(00:50:08):
you know,

(00:50:09):
at least one person in my office is going to be far right under that definition.

(00:50:14):
So, and it doesn't feel that way.

(00:50:17):
Yeah, I mean, those are great questions.

(00:50:22):
The far right, so what is the far right?

(00:50:24):
Now, I should just say it is the most contested and contingent and controversial issue.

(00:50:32):
Not the far right, definitions within various studies.

(00:50:35):
Yeah.

(00:50:37):
I've often said when I'm giving talks in sort of like academic,

(00:50:43):
like when I give when I give talks to students or whatnot about how I think in far

(00:50:48):
right studies,

(00:50:49):
they spend so much time on definitions and they almost exhaust the ability to be

(00:50:52):
critical.

(00:50:55):
But, but, but, but now.

(00:50:58):
I don't think there is a absolute consensus definition.

(00:51:03):
Um,

(00:51:03):
and I say this not because I don't think it's an important term to use,

(00:51:07):
but it's a label for a certain family of,

(00:51:09):
you know,

(00:51:09):
movements,

(00:51:10):
activists,

(00:51:10):
ideas,

(00:51:11):
organizations,

(00:51:13):
um,

(00:51:14):
that is organized around and orientated towards,

(00:51:18):
I guess,

(00:51:18):
racial or ethnic nationalism,

(00:51:21):
supremacism,

(00:51:23):
um,

(00:51:23):
militarism,

(00:51:24):
patriotism.

(00:51:25):
Um, and, um, this is often also gendered.

(00:51:29):
Um, um,

(00:51:33):
But it includes everything from sort of like,

(00:51:35):
you know,

(00:51:36):
so-called lone wolf or lone actor,

(00:51:40):
terrorists,

(00:51:41):
paramilitary units,

(00:51:44):
street activists,

(00:51:45):
subcultures,

(00:51:46):
political parties,

(00:51:47):
some governments.

(00:51:50):
And so people go, well, you can't be all of those things.

(00:51:53):
Well, the thing is, is that there's so many terms used historically in a different context.

(00:51:58):
Radical right,

(00:51:59):
populist,

(00:52:00):
fascist,

(00:52:00):
neo-fascist,

(00:52:02):
you know,

(00:52:04):
populist radical right,

(00:52:06):
ultra right,

(00:52:07):
hard right.

(00:52:08):
You see where I'm going.

(00:52:09):
Extreme right.

(00:52:10):
I use far right for the family.

(00:52:15):
I think sociologists in Britain tend to use that term.

(00:52:19):
Political scientists used to use the word extreme right.

(00:52:24):
And now they tend to use radical right.

(00:52:28):
And then they use sort of populist radical right.

(00:52:32):
But I tend not to use extreme and radical because extreme is quite pejorative.

(00:52:36):
It acts as if it's totally outside or against the system where it might be system

(00:52:40):
supportive and loyal.

(00:52:44):
And it's also in an age of counter extremism calling sort of a government or a

(00:52:49):
political party extremist extremist.

(00:52:52):
um, seems to sort of like open up debate more than it closes.

(00:52:57):
I don't use radical because radical is similarly can be used pejoratively,

(00:53:02):
but it's a term that's used non pejoratively by the left for itself.

(00:53:06):
Like if we start calling, you know, racist, the radical, right.

(00:53:09):
What do we do with non pejorative uses of the term by sort of,

(00:53:11):
you know,

(00:53:12):
the black radical tradition or something or Marxist.

(00:53:17):
And, um,

(00:53:19):
radical can also mean radical new ideas and i also don't want to call the far-right

(00:53:23):
radical because those ideas are are absolutely reaffirming status quo around you

(00:53:28):
know politics society culture race gender and economics um which is why racism is a

(00:53:36):
trade-off for sort of neoliberalism um

(00:53:41):
that it's important to note that if you have,

(00:53:46):
so if I'm pressed,

(00:53:48):
I'll use far right for sort of those which are system supportive and system loyal

(00:53:53):
and can be closer to the mainstream and extreme right for those that are system

(00:53:58):
oppositional.

(00:54:01):
But I know, and I think central to my argument is

(00:54:07):
is that these are contingent, not just as labels, but in relations and positions.

(00:54:14):
Because as I've argued that the far right can be operationalized as foot soldiers

(00:54:19):
for the sort of white supremacist system,

(00:54:21):
or they can be used as a proxy for it in a liberal epoch.

(00:54:26):
or in a liberal conjuncture.

(00:54:28):
And so the idea of what's extreme, what's mainstream does change.

(00:54:32):
One thing that is rarely scrutinized,

(00:54:34):
and I do a lot of this in my work with Aurelian Mondon and Katie Brown,

(00:54:39):
is looking at the sort of what is the mainstream?

(00:54:41):
Because we're treating that as if that's neutral and inherently positive.

(00:54:46):
But it's the thing that invites the far right in, that mainstreams them.

(00:54:52):
Because too much in sort of political science,

(00:54:53):
I think particularly,

(00:54:54):
and in counter extremism studies,

(00:54:56):
the far right or extreme right,

(00:54:58):
if you want to call it that,

(00:54:59):
is something which tries to infiltrate the mainstream.

(00:55:02):
But this always assumes the mainstream is benevolent and neutral at worst.

(00:55:09):
And the problem is, is that as I gave that example of the Ku Klux Klan earlier,

(00:55:16):
The reason the Klan had to be labeled terrorists is they needed to get them out of

(00:55:19):
the mainstream.

(00:55:22):
If you were going to have reconstruction and redemption in a post-civil rights era

(00:55:26):
or a post-abolition,

(00:55:29):
post-emancipation era after the Civil War.

(00:55:33):
So...

(00:55:36):
Yeah,

(00:55:37):
so that leads to the question I think you asked second,

(00:55:41):
which is a fascinating question and probably don't have the time to do all the kind

(00:55:45):
of data of who's who in the office.

(00:55:48):
No, I'm joking.

(00:55:52):
I wouldn't go down that line,

(00:55:54):
because then if you have that percentage,

(00:55:55):
you go like,

(00:55:56):
I'm in my house.

(00:55:58):
Well, one of my cats is clearly a far-right adjacent terrorist.

(00:56:02):
Well, there is that dogs versus cats.

(00:56:06):
I'm suspicious of cats.

(00:56:09):
I'm not, I'm just kidding.

(00:56:12):
Whether you're a dog person or cat person.

(00:56:15):
I think... So...

(00:56:19):
The argument has been made time and time again that people aren't racist and far right.

(00:56:27):
They're voting it because they have no other option.

(00:56:31):
Now,

(00:56:31):
I've argued against that argument,

(00:56:35):
but I haven't gone as far to say,

(00:56:36):
well,

(00:56:37):
then they're all far right.

(00:56:39):
I mean,

(00:56:39):
these may be people who don't have a problem with the far right or a problem with

(00:56:43):
racism.

(00:56:44):
Which does open up a question of whether they're racist, obviously.

(00:56:48):
But I would go back to the argument about they don't have anyone else to vote for.

(00:56:54):
Well,

(00:56:54):
firstly,

(00:56:55):
a lot of people who have no one to vote for are abstaining or giving protest votes.

(00:57:00):
That's an option.

(00:57:03):
the media would have to provide an alternative,

(00:57:06):
but also all three major parties or the two major establishment parties would have

(00:57:10):
to have a politics that were different to give people a choice.

(00:57:13):
And they're not doing that.

(00:57:14):
They're using the far right to justify it.

(00:57:17):
So, you know, are people far right if they vote for Starmer after the Enoch Powell thing?

(00:57:22):
Well, you know, so there's a lot to go into there about how you feel.

(00:57:28):
I mean, the one thing about the far right is,

(00:57:32):
They hate being called far right.

(00:57:35):
And I use the term, that's my objective analysis, as we call it in social sciences.

(00:57:42):
But I think it's important to note that I don't see something bad as the far right is bad.

(00:57:51):
Racism is bad.

(00:57:53):
Far right adjacent mainstreaming is bad.

(00:57:56):
I don't think something needs to be far right to be bad.

(00:58:00):
It's not being far right that makes it the problem.

(00:58:04):
It's politics make it the problem.

(00:58:07):
How we label them becomes the discussion.

(00:58:11):
So we see the BBC referred to the reform as far right.

(00:58:15):
And they had to apologize.

(00:58:17):
They had to.

(00:58:17):
They chose to apologize.

(00:58:21):
I don't have any problem calling them far right.

(00:58:24):
But I also don't have any problem indicting a mainstream party that is parroting

(00:58:30):
and pandering to their politics.

(00:58:32):
It doesn't have to be far right,

(00:58:34):
but that it's,

(00:58:34):
it's,

(00:58:35):
it might be more dangerous because it's legitimate and has a legacy and has,

(00:58:41):
has,

(00:58:42):
you know,

(00:58:43):
a foothold in international politics in,

(00:58:47):
in so many local communities and also betrays the left.

(00:58:52):
And the need of those on the left,

(00:58:57):
working class people of all races,

(00:59:00):
ethnicities,

(00:59:00):
religions,

(00:59:01):
you know,

(00:59:03):
genders to be represented.

(00:59:07):
It's not democracy if only the far right is being represented.

(00:59:11):
But we also see a backlash to the riots in 2024 where people say these are far right riots.

(00:59:16):
No, they're ordinary people.

(00:59:19):
with legitimate concerns.

(00:59:20):
Then you say,

(00:59:20):
well,

(00:59:21):
oh,

(00:59:21):
they're just ordinary people that ordinary people are far right and racist.

(00:59:24):
And like, no, they're not.

(00:59:26):
You walked into that one.

(00:59:27):
You just told me, you know.

(00:59:30):
But so you can see the way in which the label

(00:59:34):
And what I call the democratization of the far right and far right ideas and

(00:59:40):
alleged constituencies becomes a huge displacement exercise.

(00:59:44):
You call it far right, you've lost credibility because you're not acknowledging ordinary people.

(00:59:49):
You call them ordinary people and then you're indicting them because they're

(00:59:54):
associated with the far right.

(00:59:56):
I mean,

(00:59:56):
there's a variety of arguments you could make,

(01:00:00):
but it's,

(01:00:00):
it's a,

(01:00:03):
it's,

(01:00:03):
it's an interesting one.

(01:00:04):
I have this,

(01:00:05):
this experience when I'm online,

(01:00:07):
I use the term far right,

(01:00:08):
or when I use it on in the media and I get a,

(01:00:10):
an email or a post or a message later,

(01:00:14):
and it goes to your,

(01:00:14):
your,

(01:00:15):
your,

(01:00:15):
the start of your question.

(01:00:16):
It was like, do you call everything you disagree with far right?

(01:00:22):
And I'm like,

(01:00:24):
yes, this is what my career is based on.

(01:00:26):
It's like,

(01:00:27):
I study things I don't like,

(01:00:29):
call them bad names and go like this and go,

(01:00:32):
can I please have a job or a promotion?

(01:00:36):
It's just so ridiculous.

(01:00:37):
But it's a way of discrediting a label and discrediting someone who's a political

(01:00:42):
analyst or actor or whatnot.

(01:00:45):
And people who are proud of themselves for saying this

(01:00:51):
and then go on to repeat the same arguments again and again and again,

(01:00:55):
which are part and parcel of the definition you've given.

(01:01:00):
So, yeah.

(01:01:06):
When you were saying that,

(01:01:08):
the thing which I was thinking was,

(01:01:09):
yeah,

(01:01:09):
about the mainstream,

(01:01:11):
like...

(01:01:12):
I don't get it when sort of Fox News,

(01:01:15):
which is one of the largest corporations in the world,

(01:01:17):
says the mainstream media is doing this.

(01:01:20):
I mean, you're the most watched thing.

(01:01:22):
Aren't you the mainstream?

(01:01:24):
Same with the BBC,

(01:01:25):
well,

(01:01:25):
not BBC,

(01:01:26):
like GB News and stuff like the ones which also get millions and millions of views.

(01:01:30):
Yeah.

(01:01:32):
It seems like it's a badge of honor to not be the,

(01:01:35):
to distance yourself being like,

(01:01:37):
we are not mainstream,

(01:01:38):
but then you technically actually are from sort of any other metric.

(01:01:44):
A hundred percent.

(01:01:44):
It's a really good point.

(01:01:45):
And I think,

(01:01:46):
I think it goes to sort of ordinary people,

(01:01:48):
alternatives,

(01:01:48):
ordinary people,

(01:01:49):
alternatives kind of thing.

(01:01:51):
So when I use mainstream critically,

(01:01:55):
I don't mean it like the mainstream is bad.

(01:01:57):
It's the problem.

(01:01:58):
The alternative is the good thing.

(01:02:00):
Because I don't think real alternatives are being offered anyway.

(01:02:02):
But I think what's ended up happening is there's been this operationalization,

(01:02:07):
weaponization,

(01:02:08):
and monetization of alternatives.

(01:02:12):
And it's predicated on the construction.

(01:02:16):
So if the mainstream,

(01:02:18):
let's call it that,

(01:02:19):
can construct the far right as all the problem,

(01:02:22):
it gets off the hook and can do whatever it wants.

(01:02:25):
If, you know, right-wing media calls all mainstream media left-wing and woke, which it is not.

(01:02:38):
This is ridiculous.

(01:02:41):
In fact,

(01:02:41):
I would even argue the liberal media,

(01:02:44):
I mean,

(01:02:45):
the Guardian,

(01:02:46):
and I've written about this,

(01:02:47):
has been basically like...

(01:02:50):
been mainstreaming and sort of like,

(01:02:52):
you know,

(01:02:53):
left washing,

(01:02:55):
um,

(01:02:55):
anti-immigrant politics and calling the far right and racism,

(01:03:00):
populism and acting as if it's a popular democratic initiative or,

(01:03:04):
you know,

(01:03:06):
has a mandate.

(01:03:07):
Um,

(01:03:09):
But that you call it that and you keep on sort of just going on and on and just

(01:03:14):
beating that dead horse going like,

(01:03:16):
it's the mainstream view.

(01:03:17):
They want you to do this.

(01:03:18):
They want you to do that.

(01:03:19):
That's how conspiracy theories work.

(01:03:22):
It's also how the media ecosystem now works.

(01:03:26):
And I was thinking about this before because I was looking at some of the online

(01:03:31):
posts around the riots last year.

(01:03:36):
And a lot of it had to do,

(01:03:37):
the mainstream media and mainstream politics were talking about misinformation and

(01:03:40):
disinformation.

(01:03:43):
And so anything alternative is called that.

(01:03:46):
Now, I say alternative because it's different from their control of these issues.

(01:03:51):
But I have a huge problem with this idea of disinformation and misinformation

(01:03:54):
because let's say they were right about the perpetrator of those murders.

(01:03:58):
It doesn't make their riots and racism okay.

(01:04:01):
And what ends up happening is,

(01:04:03):
is that some of those discourses around grooming and migrants and Muslims was being

(01:04:08):
completely,

(01:04:09):
completely like normalized in the media and in parliament again and again and again

(01:04:17):
and again.

(01:04:17):
So what is the problem here?

(01:04:19):
Is it who controls the media?

(01:04:21):
Like who, who has the bigger market share?

(01:04:25):
You know, no, I think there is a, I think there's an economy.

(01:04:31):
In attacking the mainstream media to construct sort of reactionary alternatives,

(01:04:39):
and in the mainstream media constructing this sort of radical extremist

(01:04:43):
alternative,

(01:04:45):
even though it does exist.

(01:04:47):
I mean, both exist, the mainstream and the extremes.

(01:04:51):
But feeding off each other in these displacement and scapegoating narratives,

(01:04:55):
that means nothing changes.

(01:04:59):
And so when I was looking at those, the postings on different forums,

(01:05:03):
and on wider social media about the riots and the circumstances surrounding it and

(01:05:11):
what was going on,

(01:05:12):
you constantly had the mainstream media going,

(01:05:14):
oh,

(01:05:14):
online,

(01:05:15):
you know,

(01:05:15):
so dangerous.

(01:05:16):
What's going on with, you know, all these kind of like misinformation, disinformation.

(01:05:20):
And you see the far right going,

(01:05:21):
see,

(01:05:22):
you know,

(01:05:22):
like this newspaper even says that,

(01:05:27):
you know,

(01:05:27):
migrants are taking over hotels and stuff.

(01:05:30):
Well, hang on a second.

(01:05:31):
I don't think the mainstream media should be let off the hook that easily.

(01:05:36):
And I don't think anyone should be letting the far right off the hook.

(01:05:39):
I'm just saying there is that huge gap.

(01:05:42):
And,

(01:05:43):
you know,

(01:05:44):
I mean,

(01:05:44):
I think it's,

(01:05:46):
and then the far right actors will go,

(01:05:48):
you should be looking at the,

(01:05:49):
you know,

(01:05:50):
online and not the mainstream media,

(01:05:52):
your state propaganda.

(01:05:54):
And I have to say,

(01:05:56):
the far right stuff looks like state propaganda too,

(01:05:58):
in an era of mainstreaming.

(01:06:01):
And I think what's also important to note,

(01:06:05):
and this goes to your Fox example,

(01:06:07):
these social media platforms are run by multimillionaire

(01:06:11):
corporations,

(01:06:12):
and individuals as well,

(01:06:14):
with an investment in how the economy operates,

(01:06:18):
how politics operates,

(01:06:19):
and how to get access to power or power itself,

(01:06:23):
as we see in the US right now.

(01:06:26):
There is no way that the owner of one of the major social media platforms in which

(01:06:33):
all mainstream media has had its own account,

(01:06:37):
right?

(01:06:39):
and academics and politicians and have campaigned there and propagated there um are

(01:06:47):
this is the elite this is the anti-elite radical space of a new future that they

(01:06:55):
think is utopian and I think is dystopian um

(01:07:02):
Because we've been recording for about an hour,

(01:07:05):
it's getting to the time where we should wrap up.

(01:07:08):
So Neil, if you had any final questions?

(01:07:10):
Well, I've got one, maybe a little bit of hope to finish with Aaron.

(01:07:14):
What can we do that's going to make this better?

(01:07:18):
What's the one thing that we could do that would try and improve the situation that

(01:07:23):
we're increasingly finding ourselves in?

(01:07:26):
I mean,

(01:07:27):
I think we need to push for alternatives,

(01:07:30):
alternative horizons and alternative sort of issues in politics.

(01:07:34):
I think we need to ensure the health of a democracy and the health of democracy

(01:07:37):
isn't just predicated on getting rid of extremists,

(01:07:40):
but actually representing people,

(01:07:44):
not the people it's constructed and issues.

(01:07:49):
I think we need to, we need to oppose racism and fascism.

(01:07:56):
and any form of hate everywhere we can.

(01:08:03):
I think we have to push back against not only the attack in a university context

(01:08:09):
against academia and higher education,

(01:08:13):
but one which is made worse by the ongoing crisis in HE.

(01:08:19):
I think we have to stand by our principles, our research,

(01:08:24):
And our awareness of how much of this is based on complete fallacies.

(01:08:33):
And I guess push for a better tomorrow.

(01:08:37):
And not keep on saying,

(01:08:38):
well,

(01:08:39):
you know what,

(01:08:39):
if we vote for this party,

(01:08:42):
this center-right party that has all the same politics to the far right,

(01:08:45):
that's better than getting the far right in.

(01:08:48):
And no one's having a discussion about what's on the other side.

(01:08:51):
What could possibly be on the other side.

(01:08:54):
And I don't mean no one's having it, because I know people I'm surrounded with do.

(01:08:58):
I know people I work with and friends with and talk to do.

(01:09:03):
I read stuff that does.

(01:09:05):
But it has to get into politics and the media, too.

(01:09:10):
There has to be another horizon.

(01:09:11):
Awesome.

(01:09:12):
Yeah, so...

(01:09:20):
I think we can end there.

(01:09:22):
That was really good.

(01:09:23):
I would,

(01:09:23):
I have so many more questions to ask,

(01:09:25):
but hopefully we can get you on later to talk about them again.

(01:09:29):
Anytime.

(01:09:30):
It's been an absolute pleasure.

(01:09:31):
Like it's actually really, um, great questions.

(01:09:34):
And, um,

(01:09:37):
Yeah,

(01:09:37):
no,

(01:09:37):
it's really...

(01:09:38):
The sort of the far-right percentage one has really got me thinking about...

(01:09:43):
I wish I had all the sort of the polling charts here and stuff like that.

(01:09:46):
Maybe next time, maybe we get the charts out and we go through them.

(01:09:49):
That would be just fun.

(01:09:51):
Did you want to ask me about the sort of like my pet peeves and anything like that?

(01:09:55):
Yes, we're going to ask you all of those.

(01:09:57):
Maybe we can actually keep them in the full episode.

(01:09:58):
So I'll ask... I'll ask them one of the other.

(01:10:03):
Oh, one of the other.

(01:10:04):
So...

(01:10:05):
First thing was we usually get people to take a hot take,

(01:10:10):
which you have about research,

(01:10:12):
science,

(01:10:12):
maybe the world in general.

(01:10:14):
So I can ask that one.

(01:10:16):
So Aaron, what's your science hot take?

(01:10:23):
My hot take is that there is no compromise with the far-right racists and reactionaries.

(01:10:30):
That meeting them halfway is not going to end all the problems

(01:10:35):
that we keep on saying they're causing.

(01:10:39):
It just legitimizes and mainstreams their ideas,

(01:10:43):
reaffirms the inequalities and injustices in the system,

(01:10:47):
and makes life harder for a lot of people.

(01:10:52):
I would also add that there is no such thing as apolitical research.

(01:10:58):
And the reason I'm saying that is because I'm often accused of having to be a

(01:11:03):
political researcher,

(01:11:05):
but I'm often told that by people who have devoted their lives to fighting

(01:11:09):
extremism and terrorism and defending the liberal democracy they live in,

(01:11:16):
as if it has no part in the inequalities and injustices they place on the far right

(01:11:23):
as the sole embodiment of.

(01:11:25):
And

(01:11:28):
continues to perpetuate awesome that was really good neil and i actually were

(01:11:35):
having a conversation earlier about uh about how research is political just by the

(01:11:42):
nature of what what gets funded what you can yeah sort of do at a particular time

(01:11:49):
all those things are political and therefore research cannot necessarily ever be a

(01:11:53):
political uh

(01:11:55):
No, absolutely.

(01:11:57):
And I think it's it's it operates on so many levels.

(01:12:00):
I mean,

(01:12:00):
even what you choose to identify as a for,

(01:12:02):
you know,

(01:12:03):
in social sciences,

(01:12:04):
a social problem.

(01:12:06):
You know,

(01:12:06):
we're constantly told to be that we should be apolitical and objective,

(01:12:09):
but we're subject to funding decisions.

(01:12:13):
Yeah.

(01:12:14):
And an impact agenda, which we have to have impact on government.

(01:12:18):
So apolitical often means I'm willing to move wherever the political tide will be.

(01:12:25):
There's a lot of terrorism and extremism researchers who are really mad about Trump.

(01:12:31):
Not just because he's far right,

(01:12:34):
but because he's cutting all this funding to fight terrorism and extremism.

(01:12:40):
First of all, the whims of that funding

(01:12:44):
and what it supports should be seen as quite political and problematic to begin with.

(01:12:49):
But also,

(01:12:49):
clearly,

(01:12:50):
if you're doing all that research for all those years,

(01:12:52):
claiming to be apolitical,

(01:12:54):
claiming to want to make change,

(01:12:56):
things have become worse.

(01:12:59):
I think we have to wake up to the kind of,

(01:13:01):
I guess,

(01:13:02):
the very,

(01:13:03):
very sharp political reality we're in.

(01:13:07):
There's an awful lot of politics in apolitical research, is what you're saying.

(01:13:11):
Yeah, yeah.

(01:13:14):
But I mean,

(01:13:14):
going back to what you asked me at the very beginning about how I got into this,

(01:13:18):
my reasons for getting into this are personal and political.

(01:13:22):
And the personal is political and academic because I wanted to know more because I

(01:13:28):
didn't also didn't like what was going on.

(01:13:31):
And I'm sure if you asked a very objective terrorism researcher,

(01:13:37):
do you have any political opinions?

(01:13:39):
About this, like, I don't know, terrorism, for example.

(01:13:42):
I have a feeling they'd be anti it, I hope.

(01:13:46):
Yeah.

(01:13:48):
Now, awesome.

(01:13:51):
The final thing is one bit of research which you've conducted which you think

(01:13:56):
people should know about.

(01:14:01):
Well...

(01:14:06):
I've done,

(01:14:06):
I've,

(01:14:07):
I've,

(01:14:07):
uh,

(01:14:08):
I'm sort of getting on in years,

(01:14:09):
so I've done quite a bit,

(01:14:11):
but,

(01:14:11):
uh,

(01:14:11):
I really want to highlight,

(01:14:13):
um,

(01:14:14):
my work on the mainstreaming of the far right.

(01:14:18):
Um, some of it I've done on my own.

(01:14:20):
Some I've done it with, uh, my frequent coauthor, Aurelien Mondon.

(01:14:25):
Um,

(01:14:26):
And different pieces have reflected different aspects of this.

(01:14:32):
But I think it's my work on mainstreaming the far right and specifically the role

(01:14:39):
of counter-extremism and counter-terrorism narratives doing that.

(01:14:47):
Because I think for a lot of people,

(01:14:49):
they would think that was kind of paradoxical or contradictory.

(01:14:52):
Like why calling something an extremist is mainstreaming?

(01:14:56):
And me and Mondon look at it in different ways.

(01:14:59):
We look at the way in which sort of like populism as a narrative and the white

(01:15:04):
working class narrative works to help mainstreaming.

(01:15:07):
Well,

(01:15:07):
calling the far right extremist and securitizing it,

(01:15:13):
calling it exceptional extremist and securitizing it,

(01:15:16):
that may seem like it's damning.

(01:15:19):
of their ideas and who they are.

(01:15:22):
But what it's actually doing is it's allowing the space to deny racism and equality

(01:15:27):
and justice are in that society,

(01:15:30):
to exceptionalize those.

(01:15:31):
And then you take those ideas into the mainstream in order to tell that society

(01:15:38):
that you've scared enough about the rise of the far right into thinking if you

(01:15:44):
don't steal their ideas,

(01:15:46):
they will be in power.

(01:15:48):
and things will be even worse.

(01:15:52):
That's very interesting.

(01:15:55):
I guess it makes sense, right?

(01:15:56):
The more you tell someone,

(01:15:58):
don't push that red button,

(01:15:59):
and you keep showing this red button,

(01:16:02):
someone will want to push it.

(01:16:03):
Especially when you've replicated the red button.

(01:16:08):
Oh, awesome.

(01:16:10):
Thank you so much.

(01:16:10):
Thank you, Aaron.

(01:16:11):
Thank you, Neil.

(01:16:13):
Thank you, everybody, for listening.

(01:16:14):
If you liked this episode, go like, subscribe, leave comments, do all that jazz.

(01:16:19):
Thank you so much.

(01:16:21):
And until next time, take care.

(01:16:24):
Bye.