Mindful & Millionaire

#1 The Dutch Monk Swami Purnachaitanya: Why we need meditation now more than ever

• Steffy Roos du Maine • Episode 1

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We open a fresh start by welcoming an exceptional guest in today’s episode. Author, speaker, and spiritual guide Swami Purnachaintanya (The Dutch Monk) is in the show to share his keen interest in meditation and mindfulness. He answers questions about his book, how important it is to practice meditation, how it can complete us, and more. Catch him in this interview; some great insights to learn here. 

Key Takeaways:

  • Swami talks about his meditation book and how it became a bestseller 
  • What is it about meditation that is so special?
  • “The beauty of meditation is connecting to that part of you that doesn’t change.”
  • Meditation is like an investment in productivity 
  • What does feeling rich mean to him?
  • The difference between mindfulness and meditation
  • #TheDutchMonk 

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Photo credit: Stance Photography.


Steffy Roos du Maine: Welcome to the Mindful & Millionaire podcast. I'm Steffy Roos du Maine and I'll be interviewing the most inspiring guest on the culmination of spiritual growth and business success. 


My guest on today's show is Swami Purnachaitanya, author, public speaker, and spiritual guide. I met up with him in my office in Amsterdam, which was extra special because he is almost never in the Netherlands. He might be Dutch, but he lives all over the world because of his work for the art of living. Because Swami's bestseller, Looking Inward, has just been translated into Dutch, he came over. After his studies, Swami moved to India to learn from Sri Sri Ravi Shankar. This guru even appointed him as swami, which is a spiritual guide, a sort of monk, and he's the only Western person to be appointed by this guru.


Welcome. It's really nice to have you here. 


Swami Purnachaitanya: Thank you so much, Steffy.


Steffy Roos du Maine: We are honored because you're not in the Netherlands that much.


Swami Purnachaitanya: Correct. 


Steffy Roos du Maine: You're here for your book, your Dutch book, which is amazing. I just read it and I love it. Tell me about your book. What does it mean to you?


Swami Purnachaitanya: Basically, I have been teaching and practicing meditation for over 20 years now. Apart from many other things that I do, it's something that I'm definitely passionate about, especially during the lockdown, during the pandemic. I realized that it's even more needed nowadays than it was maybe five or ten years ago to learn how to manage our mind, how to manage our emotions because I saw there were so many people who were really struggling.


Of course, in the news we saw that domestic violence rates went up, suicides went up, divorces went up. People are not used to being stuck together, maybe or being stuck inside, but it shows that we've never really learned how to deal with our minds or emotions. I've been teaching people across the world for so many years. In this scenario of the pandemic, I realized that there are so many more people who now desperately need this knowledge. What are other ways that we can reach them? We were doing online sessions, online programs using social media, how can we? 


I was actually approached by Penguin in India, the publisher, and they said—it was just when the pandemic started or just before—"Can you write a book about something like this: how to help people manage their mind and emotions, how to learn, how to meditate or improve their meditation practice?" I said, "Yes, why not?" I thought, "Let me try." I wrote the book and they loved it. It was published in India first last year, and it's already a national bestseller. It was received very well. It's being translated into ten languages already. Of course, Dutch is special to me because it's my mother tongue. I was born and raised in Holland.  


Now, I had a chance to come to Europe for the book launch of the Dutch book as well as the UK editions. In England, it's also being released now in Germany and a few other countries. It's beautiful to see how even through a book, people are really benefiting. It's quite humbling for me to get messages I receive. Just about ten days back, I was still in India and I was conducting a meditation retreat with about 150 people in a city called Pune. We have a beautiful setup there, a retreat center in Ashram. 


One of the participants, one gentleman, came up to me on the last day, he said, "I really need to speak to you." I was already getting late for another meeting. I said, "Okay, we can talk on the way." I was walking. Then he burst out into tears. I stopped and said, "Okay, let me see." What is it that he wants to share? Then he said that someone had framed him and he was in jail for 75 days before his case was cleared. Well, of course, it's a very unpleasant experience. His wife had actually given him a copy of my book when he was in jail. He said, "This saved me. This helped me through this incredibly difficult period."


It's stories like this that I would have never imagined, but it's very touching to see that even a book can really help and, of course, that was the intention, but it's beautiful to see that.


Steffy Roos du Maine: He really read that. 


Swami Purnachaitanya: It's serving it. 


Steffy Roos du Maine: I read amazing stories in your book about even teaching a guy who's 115 years old and so many beautiful stories. What would you say is the most touching story? This one is already amazing. What about meditating, about the people who tell you how it changed their lives? What is it that changes their life? What is it about meditation that's so special? 


Swami Purnachaitanya: Well, I think that most of us have been raised and brought up and have been taught to look outside of us, for things to feel good, to be successful, to have a sense of security. Usually, that's what we hear: you need to have—whatever—a decent job, you need to have some income, you need to have a place to stay, preferably achieve something, be successful in whatever you do, have nice friends and a lovely partner or have lots of kids or whatever it may be. 


We've also seen, especially during this pandemic, that many of these things can change anytime. We think, "Okay, I have a good bank balance," but suddenly the economy collapses or something else happens, and it may change, or you never worried about your health and suddenly there is a virus and some people got really worried. They may be very healthy, very fit, but so what? What will happen? What if I get this virus? Will I be okay? More people who rely on their friends that you say, "Okay, at least in the evening or in the week, we have some time to spend together," and suddenly you're not allowed to meet people. 


Of course, this was always there. I mean, there was always a chance that your girlfriend will break up with you or that you suddenly lose your job, but it became even more obvious maybe for people during this time that this can happen anytime. Then it shakes you because if we rely on those things for our sense of security, our happiness, our peace of mind, then there is no guarantee in a lot of these changes. This is what we saw. That's why many people felt very uncomfortable. 


The beauty of meditation is that it is connecting to that part of you that doesn't change, and this can give you a kind of solace, a kind of strength, and a kind of stability that nothing else can give you. The more you're able to consciously experience that—because it's always there—but when you consciously are able to experience that, latch onto that, or tap into that, then what happens is any changes that you may experience don't really shake you. Even if it's your body, we're going to age sooner or later. If you're too attached to your body, if some wrinkles come or some stiffness comes or something else comes, you have less hair or more hair or who knows what, then it can be really a problem. If you know "But there's a part of me that is eternal," then even one day when we have to leave this body, that's okay. It doesn't shake you so much. 


I think to be able to really appreciate life, really enjoy life, this is essential. It's a kind of—in English, this beautiful word—dispassion is there. I mean, it's sometimes taken out of context. If you really look at it when you have that sense of dispassion, that is when you can be really passionate. It's when you have a detachment, that is when you can really give your 100%. People think it's the other way around, but this is what really allows you to live.


Even in a relationship, if you really don't need anything from the other person because you feel so fulfilled, that is when you can truly say, "Okay, I'm there for you. I can do or I'm open to what you need because there is no need from my side." Meditation, I think, can complete us in so many aspects of life. I think, now more than ever, that we need it, it's a necessity. 


Steffy Roos du Maine: I'm a big fan of meditation, of course. I try to introduce it in this office, I'm like, "Yes!" I'm so enthusiastic about it, but I have a hard time convincing people that work and finding success are important. What will you say to those people that feel like, "No, I have too much work. I don't have time to meditate?"


Swami Purnachaitanya: Honestly, these are the people that need it more. If someone is very chilled out, very lazy and they don't have any work, maybe it's not really needed for them. But if you're really busy, that is when you need to also really rest. If you have a lot of work to do, if you're well rested, if you're fresh, you're energetic, you can get it done very quickly, and we've all had this experience. On those days when you sleep really well, you feel fresh, you sit down and you get so much of work done even before lunch, and it feels great. It's like, "Oh, wow! This day is a success."


Sometimes if you're already tired, you feel a little drained or you're not well rested, then the same thing takes so much more time. Even in the entire day you don't get as much done because you don't have that clarity, maybe not as much creativity or that perception, observation, expression, everything gets affected. Meditation, what many people don't realize, is a rest that is even deeper than sleep. If we look at good sleep, when you have a good deep sleep, the amount of rest that your mind gets in 20 minutes of proper meditation is the same as four to six hours of sleep. 


Steffy Roos du Maine: That's bizarre.


Swami Purnachaitanya: Nowadays, with the lifestyles that we live, the amount of work we have; the impressions when we talk about media, social media or computers, our mind has a lot to digest. That's why many times nowadays when people sleep, you wake up in the morning, you don't feel really fresh. Physically, it's plenty. It's not like we're doing hardcore physical labor, but for the mind, many times you don't feel really fresh. It feels like you need something more. That's when you say, "I need a cup of coffee," or "I need to—whatever—go and do a workout."


Meditation can give you that intense rest that you need to be able to be dynamic again in your action. If you're really busy, I would say it's a must because if you don't do it, you will get less done, so the output will be less. It's like an investment. You invest 20 minutes, and then for the next few hours, you're much more productive.


Steffy Roos du Maine: That's a good word—it's an investment in time.


Swami Purnachaitanya: In business, people respond to that. 


Steffy Roos du Maine: We're going to try that. Of course, this podcast is called Mindful & Millionaire and I'm curious, do you feel rich? What does feeling rich mean to you? 


Swami Purnachaitanya: I feel very rich. People wonder because the fact that I'm a swami—swami means a monk, it's like a monk of the Vedic traditions, you're a monk—I live out of a suitcase. My spiritual master can send me anywhere. I've spent most of the last three years in Africa. Before that, I had spent a lot of time in India and some other parts of the world. When it comes to material possessions, I may not qualify. The beauty—I've had a very beautiful experience once in this context—is that I found that I can feel so comfortable anywhere. 


I remember that a few years back I was in interior places in India and the northeastern region near the China border, and these are tribal areas. You have these indigenous tribes, people there. In those areas where I was traveling at that time, there was no phone network, no electricity even, sometimes. One evening, I was sitting in a bamboo hut—a house—around the fireplace with the village headman and his family; they were hosting me. Suddenly, it struck me that I'm sitting there having this boiled rice and these boiled leaves from the jungle because I'm vegetarian, so I was not partaking of the local delicacies that they found. I was having these leaves and this rice sitting around the fire with this elderly gentleman wearing a very different type of clothes, speaking a completely different language than I had grown up with. We were speaking in Hindi, which I picked up along the way in India. 


I thought I would have never imagined that I would find myself in such a place. It's so different from the Netherlands, from Europe in any way. At the same time, it struck me that I felt so at home. I've realized that time and again that the more you, like I said, feel comfortable and you're able to connect with that part of you that doesn't change, then rather than feeling uncomfortable with different people, different places, different activities, you come from a space where you can actually enjoy and appreciate it. 


For me, this has been a tremendous wealth because it has allowed me to live with so many different types of people to learn about their lives, their world, to connect with them, whether I'm conducting a program in a high-security prison somewhere in Africa or like I said, living with indigenous people somewhere in India, or sitting down with a businessman in Hong Kong, or doing a program in the Middle East. This world is so beautiful. It has so much of diversity. To be able to feel at home wherever you go and to really feel comfortable is, I think, a great wealth because it means I can be comfortable anywhere.


Steffy Roos du Maine: That is being rich, I think, to feel that. You said you had told people in prisons, and businessmen, if we focus on the businessmen because there's a lot of resistance to spirituality and I try to, well, make it better. How do these two topics connect? How does spirituality connect to being successful in running a business?


Swami Purnachaitanya: Well, Steffy, I think if I've seen also – especially now in the last two years, I have personally actually conducted quite a few programs even for top corporates, the top management, CEOs of companies like Barclays, YPOs all over the world. I think there is already a shift happening where there is a lot more awareness for, I would say, one is the health component where people realize that we also need to take care of our mental and emotional health, which may have been ignored or shunned for quite a long time, but now it's becoming more and more okay to say that I'm stressed out or I'm burned out. It's a reality for people.


One is that aspect. I'm also seeing that the meaning or purpose or the ethics component also is something that is becoming more and more, I would say, attended to or highlighted, at least flagged in the current scenario because many companies are struggling with this. If you have your management and your employees, how do you keep them really committed? How do you take care of not just their mental well-being, but also their commitment to their work? If someone feels, "Okay, yes, this is my company," or "I'm a part of this," they may go that extra mile. If someone just works to make the hours, then in the end for the company, it's not beneficial, it's not great. 


I think even for top management, we see more and more that people are realizing it, "Oh, yes, I need to also attend to this part – 


Steffy Roos du Maine: The connection. 


Swami Purnachaitanya: Yeah, one I run this for myself, and one is for my company also."


Steffy Roos du Maine: It's beautiful. It's a good thing they hire you and then it becomes a bit more normal. You've also talked about mindfulness and meditation that it's something different. 


Swami Purnachaitanya: It's interesting because, especially in the corporate world—I'm sure you would have noticed this, as you said—it differs in different parts of the world. Sometimes there is still a slight, I would say, reluctance maybe to go full fledged for something like meditation because sometimes they still feel that there is a cultural connotation or a religious connotation to it.


Steffy Roos du Maine: I would say Asian crystals for the – 


Swami Purnachaitanya: Yeah, either it's airy-fairy or maybe this is a different religion or "I'm not religious at all." At the same time, you see that mindfulness has become tremendously popular in the corporate world. 


I've had instances where we were talking to a company, a corporate in South Africa, for example. They were very keen for us to do some regular programs for their employees. When we put forward the proposal, they actually got back saying, "This sounds really nice and it looks good, but the only thing is, would you mind, instead of meditation, calling it mindfulness?" There is this perception that mindfulness is much more secular.


Recently, I actually came across an article; I found it quite funny. It was very serious. In the UK, there's also an institute that has been conducting programs. They now had sent out a press release proclaiming that now we have come up with something called secular mindfulness. It's even more safe. The truth is, in this craze for mindfulness practice, meditation, we see that many times these terms get mixed, like we said, mindfulness is the more secular word for meditation. At the same time, sometimes we see that also people come up with all kinds of things and they just call it mindfulness or meditation. Just like with yoga, now we have goat yoga, beer yoga, God knows what. 


If you really study the scriptures, if you go look at the tradition at this age in science, which has so much to offer, then we find that many times what is offered nowadays under the name of yoga may be something completely different, or it somewhere misses the point, or it doesn't take you to the same goal. The same if we look at mindfulness and meditation. If we actually look at it properly, many of the meditation techniques that people offer nowadays, in some way, actually, yes, they come under mindfulness in the sense that mindfulness is a practice where you consciously become mindful. You focus your mind somewhere, and that is many times a big improvement because our mind tends to be so scattered, we multitask almost everything nowadays. 


Becoming mindful, taking your attention to your breath, or to a sensation, some of the meditations, we visualize something. If we look at the ancient tradition where these techniques come from and the yoga scriptures, they talk about something called dharana. Dharana is where you bring your attention, what we can say mindfulness. 


There is another practice, which they call dhyana, which is what we can say meditation, where you go one step further. Rather than actively engaging your mind and focusing on something, the next step is then real meditation is to transcend the mind, and it is where you relax. You move from effort to effortlessness. It doesn't mean mindfulness doesn't have many benefits and it can be a great preparation for meditation like many of the meditations you may initially want to collect your mind, bring it together, but in some way you need to let go. Because if you keep focusing, then—I've seen this even in corporates, you do a 15-minute session—people may feel more focused, a little more calm. If you do a short guided meditation with them, then people say, "Oh, I feel so fresh, I feel so nice." It's a different level altogether, and it has many more benefits to offer. 


That's why in the book, I made sure to also dedicate one chapter to that because there may be many people who either are already practicing meditation or they're keen to start, but then how to go about it or how do you know that you're doing it right. It's not that there is only one right way of meditation. That's why I'm not stuck to any one specific technique in the book. There are certain principles that we can follow or that if you're aware of can guide you so that you know that, yes, I'm on the right track. It would be a shame if someone practices for so many years without actually getting some of the fruits that real meditation has to offer. 


Steffy Roos du Maine: That's what I had to think about because mindfulness now almost is used in corporates like, "Oh, do some mindfulness, then you can work longer" instead of what is meditation really is about, like getting into yourself instead of "No, it's not an easy way to get people not burned out." That is what I looked at in your book. Do you think here in the Western world people work hard and, yeah, we use mindfulness as a way to focus? Can we achieve that state of meditation by ourselves or do we always need a teacher for that? 


Swami Purnachaitanya: Well, we can never really generalize because – 


Steffy Roos du Maine: Yeah, of course.


Swami Purnachaitanya: – there will always be people who may have an innate ability or some things come easy to different people. Yes, it's been my experience, and even if we look at the tradition. That way, I feel very fortunate that I have been trained and become part of such an ancient tradition. It's always been emphasized that it's important to learn these things from a teacher, from a master, someone who knows, simply because it's so subtle.


If we look at our life, we have someone to teach us how to drive a car or maybe how to read and write, such basic things. If you look at our minds, it's very subtle. How do you manage your mind? How do you know that you're doing it right? When we're dealing with spiritual practices, for example, you may be sitting and feeling very nice. If you're really sincere, then maybe this question, "Okay, how do I know that I'm really doing it right," or "Do I know that there is nothing beyond this?" That doubt will always remain unless you have someone who can verify, who can say, "Okay, yes. Now, tell me what is your experience?" "This and this and this." They say, "Okay, yes, you got it right" or there is something more. 


In the same way, I always recommend people that if you're really serious about maybe starting some yoga or learning some breathing techniques, at least initially, find someone who is properly qualified or a capable teacher. Because if you just take a YouTube video or an app however well it may be made, they will not be able to correct you. I've seen this. People may be practicing very sincerely and they may be doing something wrong, but then that YouTube video is not going to tell them, "No, no, you have to turn your hand the other way" or "You'd have to breathe out in a different manner." That doesn't mean they may not benefit in some way but, yeah, sometimes also it can cause problems. When it's something as subtle as your thoughts, it can be a great support to have someone who can at least teach you, "Okay, this is the way to go about it." It can save you a lot of time and effort, and it can give you the confidence and guidance that will allow you to progress much faster. 


In the same way, in the book, of course, I have given people practical exercises to get started on their practice or to improve or build on their practice. At the same time, I have also encouraged them that, yes, if you would like to explore certain things more, whether it is some breathing techniques or a specific technique of meditation, then definitely it is recommended to take out those few days. It doesn't have to be years or decades. To learn something properly, it'll really help. 


Steffy Roos du Maine: What you said, this is a really good way to start, I think. Also, because you make it sound quite easy, also in a sense like it is hard, so it's okay if it's hard, even for you. For me, it was really nice, like, "Okay, yes."


Swami Purnachaitanya: There are many people who shared this with me. I hadn't consciously thought about it, but they told me that the book is not condescending. It doesn't tell you, "This is wrong," or – 


Steffy Roos du Maine: "This is how you do it."


Swami Purnachaitanya: – yeah, "You should do it like that." I've had many people also come back to me saying that even though they had been practicing on and off, the book has really helped them to become more regular with their practice. I think that's also something that's always a challenge, whether it is working out or anything good we want to incorporate, but how to be regular, how to make it a part of your life. I've given a few tips for that as well. 


Steffy Roos du Maine: Do you think that is your mission, maybe being here? Do you make it less scary? You make it very easy. You're like a connection between, what you say, you're a monk, but you're also – 


Swami Purnachaitanya: East and west. 


Steffy Roos du Maine: Yeah. You meet everything. You heard everything. 


Swami Purnachaitanya: Ancient and modern.


Steffy Roos du Maine: Yeah. What do you feel is your mission, your dharma?


Swami Purnachaitanya: Well, to be honest—because this is just one of the things, of course, like I said, I'm doing so many things—my mission, if we want to call it that or my dharma is the way I see it. I felt it even when I was much younger as well that I would like to contribute, help people in whatever way I can. I found that this is one of the most purposeful, useful, profound ways to help people apart from – of course, we're involved in service projects. If someone doesn't have a roof over their head, or they don't have an education, we do our best to help with that as well. In the end, the most valuable thing that you can teach a person is, like I said, to connect to that source within because it can give you strength and fulfillment and peace that you cannot find anywhere else. 


In whatever ways I can, I do my best to share this knowledge with whatever little I have learned, and I keep learning. I have made some CDs with mantras, for example, people can listen to, they can meditate with.


Steffy Roos du Maine: Nice.


Swami Purnachaitanya: I do my best to keep up with my social media to share things whenever I can. I give talks, discourses, programs. Yes, I have found over the years that in many places where I've gone, sometimes it helps that maybe I had a Western upbringing so I know the mindset or I know the life there. At the same time, I was very fortunate and blessed that I had the opportunity to go so deep into the ancient, you can say, Eastern traditions that I have experienced as well. 


Even in India, people sometimes tell me, "How come you know more about these things than we do?" In the same way, people in the West have told me, "It's so nice that you explain things in a very systematic way because that's what we're used to." Maybe it's a beautiful coincidence or this worked out nicely.


Steffy Roos du Maine: Like a monk on Instagram, that's cool.


Swami Purnachaitanya: Nowadays, yeah, that's cool. Sometimes people ask me, "Oh, why is a monk on social media?" The whole point is – 


Steffy Roos du Maine: To reach people.


Swami Purnachaitanya: – you want to reach people, yeah. I mean, I'm happy sitting on a mountain and meditating, and sometimes I think that's a better option. At the same time, if you see the people are struggling, you can't just sit quietly. Of course, it doesn't mean I don't come out of my house. I travel all over the world. At the same time, I've seen that you'll never know how you can reach someone whom you can help that way. At least let us use technology for good. There are many people anyway, spamming it with all kinds of nonsense. At least we may as well add some valuable content as well.


Steffy Roos du Maine: Absolutely. Why do you say maybe that it would be better to sit on a mountain? Would it be easier?


Swami Purnachaitanya: Honestly, I've been so busy during the lockdown also, so many online sessions. I'm sure you know the experience sometimes like literally in a day, 10-12 hours behind the screen. I mean, it's tiring, it's not great and I would love to spend time in nature. In the same way, of course, I'm busy with so many things. When you know that you can just be also and just sit there, and that's also wonderful. I think that is where the beauty is, when you feel good, when you feel peaceful, naturally you start thinking, "Okay, what can I do for other people?" 


Many people may be stressed, so they're more focused on themselves because that's natural. You want to get rid of that. You want to feel good. At the moment you feel good and you feel, "Oh, I don't need anything else" or "I'm very happy, content," then that's not a stagnant state. Very naturally, you say, "Okay, what can I do for others?" Sometimes, of course, you say, "Oh, yeah, it would be so nice to take a break." Once in a while you'll have a chance to do that for a few days, go into silence and just be with yourself. Apart from that, then you say, "Okay, but we have all this energy," – 


Steffy Roos du Maine: You want to share.


Swami Purnachaitanya: – and you want to share it, yeah.


Steffy Roos du Maine: That's beautiful. What would you say is the best advice you got maybe from your parents or from your master that you want to share with us? What's the best piece that you can give, the best piece of advice? 


Swami Purnachaitanya: Well, that's difficult. I have to think of one thing.


Steffy Roos du Maine: You can have more. 


Swami Purnachaitanya: One thing that I've seen in my master also is that when you're able to accept people as they are, including yourself, then that allows you to be so natural, so free wherever you go. Even if you want to change things, whether it is in society, whether it is in your relationships, it starts from acceptance if you want to be really effective. I've seen that with him. People from all over the world come to him. It doesn't matter what background, culture. They may be the president, a farmer, or a terrorist, but people feel so at ease with him. They feel so comfortable because he accepts them totally as they are. You see that they're also much more open to listen.


Like just in a relationship, if your partner tells you, "Oh, what you're doing is wrong" or "This is not good," but if they come from a space of acceptance, then even if at that moment maybe you're angry or upset or you're not in the mood to listen, then later you think, "Oh, yeah, actually, what they said is right." If someone comes from a space of anger, frustration, or whatever it may be, and then if they say, "Oh, this is wrong" or "This is like this, this is like that," even if they're 100% right and even if you know that it's true because the feeling is there behind it, you won't be in a space to let it in, to accept it. 


I've seen that even with ourselves. If you're able to fully accept yourself the way you are, then again, there's not a stagnant state. It allows you to grow, or rather, it allows you to grow more. If you go from a space of, you can say, one level of perfection to another level of perfection, rather than being continuously in a state of that something is imperfect. Total acceptance is something that really allows life to blossom.


Steffy Roos du Maine: It's beautiful. Thank you for sharing with us.


Swami Purnachaitanya: You're most welcome. 


Steffy Roos du Maine: Thank you so much for listening to this episode of the Mindful & Millionaire podcast. I hope you enjoyed and got inspired. You'll find all the interesting links and information in the show notes. Let's keep in touch on Instagram, steffyroosdumaine, and I'll be super grateful when you will rate, review or share this podcast. 


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