Season 7: Episode 5 - Expert Contributor Dr. Steven Tracy

In this episode of Safe to Hope, Ann Maree and Julia sit down with Dr. Steve Tracy, President of Mending the Soul Ministries, to explore the reality of spiritual abuse within the Church. Through theological insight and real-life application, Dr. Tracy helps unpack how misuse of authority, emotional neglect, and distorted interpretations of Scripture can deeply impact survivors.

Grounded in Helen’s story, this conversation sheds light on the subtle warning signs of unhealthy systems, the importance of emotional and spiritual maturity in leadership, and the hope found in a God who sees, cares, and redeems.

To Heal or Harm by Steven R. Tracy

Safe To Hope is one of the resources offered through the ministry of Help[H]er, a 501C3 that provides advocacy for women in crisis in the church, and training and resources for those ministering in one-another care. Your donations make it possible for Help[H]er to serve as they navigate crises. All donations are tax-deductible.

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We value and respect conversations with all our guests. Opinions, viewpoints, and convictions may differ so we encourage our listeners to practice discernment. As well, guests do not necessarily represent the views and opinions of HelpHer. It is our hope that this podcast is a platform for hearing and learning rather than causing division or strife. 

Please note, abuse situations have common patterns of behavior, responses, and environments. Any familiarity construed by the listener is of their own opinion and interpretation. Our podcast does not accuse individuals or organizations.

The podcast is for informational purposes and is not a substitute for professional care, diagnosis, or treatment.

Transcript

Ann Maree:
 Hello and welcome to the Safe to Hope podcast. Safe to Hope, renewed in light of eternity, exists to offer women space to tell their stories of suffering and loss with care, dignity, and honesty. Though all suffering is loss, we ground that belief in a God who cares and remains present. This is our hope. My name is Ann Maree, and I am the Executive Director of Help Her and the host of this week's podcast.

Ann Maree:
 Today I'll be joined in the studio with our resident expert and board member, Julia Philpott. This podcast is made possible by donors who believe faithfulness means protecting the dignity of women's stories and creating a space for truth-telling without pressure or performance. Together, we listen for God's redemptive thread and look for ways to join Him in His transforming work.

Ann Maree:
 Before we begin, we want to take a moment and care for our listeners. The Safe to Hope podcast typically includes discussions of abuse, and this season will as well. In particular, we'll be talking about spiritual abuse. However, our conversations may include other abuses. Please listen at your own pace and take breaks as needed. If at any point you need to pause or step away, that's okay.

Ann Maree:
 Your well-being matters.

Ann Maree:
 We're here today with Dr. Steve Tracy, who is our expert contributor, helping us understand a little bit more intricately some of the things about spiritual abuse regarding our story with Helen. I just want to introduce you to Steve a little bit, and he can say some more things about himself if he wants to, but he is the President and International Director of Mending the Soul Ministries.

Ann Maree:
 Some of you may even be familiar with the Mending the Soul book that Steve wrote. Steve and his wife, Celestia Tracy, founded Mending the Soul in 2003 to create best-practice Christian resources for understanding and responding to abuse. Steve also recently retired as the Professor of Theology and Ethics at Phoenix Seminary, where he taught for 30 years. He's the author of numerous books and journal articles on abuse, relationships, and healing.

Ann Maree:
 His most recent book is entitled To Heal or Harm: How the Scriptures Can Be Poison or Medicine to Abuse Survivors, and it will be released by Zondervan in January, and we are all looking forward to getting a copy of that book. But anyway, thank you, Dr. Tracy, for being with us today and for sharing some of your wisdom on our podcast.

Dr. Steve Tracy:
 Really delighted to join you. Thank you. Very, very important topics.

Ann Maree:
 Yes, we agree. And I'm here today also with my co-host, Julia. I don't know if there's anything else that you wanted to tell us about yourself or your work or your research. We'd love to hear more about you.

Dr. Steve Tracy:
 I mean, that kind of covered it in the little bio you read. God has put abuse ministry, abuse survivors, healing on our heart for several decades now. It's our life's work, our life's passion, and I continue to learn as I do the work, as I work with survivors. The only thing I would add is from several decades, both academically, in the field and pastorally, and in our missionary work with survivors in war zones,

Dr. Steve Tracy:
 I am more convinced than I ever have been that there is nothing nearer and dearer to God's heart than helping the traumatized heal. And we may have time later to talk a little bit about that biblically, but that's often not recognized by evangelicals, by conservatives. Abuse ministry is not something that just, you know, mainline denominations care about, or progressives, whatever label you want to give it.

Dr. Steve Tracy:
 But this is at the heart of biblical Christianity.

Julia:
 Amen.

Dr. Steve Tracy:
 From Genesis to Revelation.

Ann Maree:
 Yeah, full agreement.

Julia:
 Dr. Langberg talks about trauma and abuse care as the mission field of the 21st century.

Dr. Steve Tracy:
 Absolutely, yeah.

Julia:
 And your book has been so impactful, Mending the Soul, for so many. It is so thorough, well-researched, and when an advocate is able to recommend the book to victims and survivors, that means a lot. We have so many advocates who recommend it without caution, and that says a lot about your work.

Dr. Steve Tracy:
 Really thankful for that. Great joy.

Ann Maree:
 Yeah. Well, I hope we get into some of that discussion a little bit later as well. Thank you again for just sharing more about you and your heart for this, for these victims and survivors in this ministry.

Ann Maree:
 Each time we interview an expert this season, we want to hear their definition for spiritual abuse. So what we found is all of our experts have excellent definitions, but there's uniqueness to each one, I should say. And so I've taken the one out of your book, Mending the Soul. And if you don't mind, I'd just like to read that.

Dr. Steve Tracy:
 Yeah, it's for the audience.

Ann Maree:
 It's on page 32 of that book, and it says, quote, "Ultimately, spiritual abuse is based on a denial of one of the most precious pillar doctrines of Protestant Christianity, namely, the priesthood of all believers. This doctrine teaches that while church leaders and spiritual leaders are appropriate and helpful, every individual believer has the Holy Spirit and direct access to God.

Ann Maree:
 Thus, every believer has the right to discern the will of God through the Scriptures and the leading of the Spirit, without needing a human, quote-unquote, priest to intercede to God for him or her." So maybe can you share with us a little bit about the biblical basis for that statement?

Dr. Steve Tracy:
 Yeah. We see that concept to illustrate the quote really clearly in 1 John chapter 2. Keep in mind, I'm a teacher. I've spent 30 years at a seminary level teaching. I write books to instruct people. You have me on today as a trained, at the highest level, New Testament teacher. And yet John tells his audience of believers, you don't need anyone to teach you, because ultimately the Holy Spirit's the authority.

Dr. Steve Tracy:
 And every believer has the Holy Spirit indwelling him or her to teach them God's truth. And if that sounds extreme, I mean, hear John's words in 1 John 2. I write, verse 26, "I write these things to you about those who are trying to deceive you. But the anointing," and that most likely is a reference to the Holy Spirit, "the anointing you've received from Him abides in you, and you have no need that anyone should teach you.

Dr. Steve Tracy:
 But as His anointing teaches you about everything, and is true and is no lie, just as it has taught you, abide in Him." The context of 1 John seems to be, and we see this in chapter 1, an early form of what developed in the second century into what we call Gnosticism. It comes from the Greek word gnosis, knowledge. And in essence, this early form of heresy taught that there was an elite group of individuals who were super spiritual.

Dr. Steve Tracy:
 They had the gnosis, the knowledge, and you had to follow them, their teachings, to get the special knowledge that would make you truly spiritual, and you would be at a level above everyone else. So you had to follow them and their teaching. And John says, wait a minute, time out. No way. You have the Holy Spirit. He is your teacher. You don't need anyone to teach you. Ultimately, listen to the Holy Spirit.

Dr. Steve Tracy:
 And then he ties that to abiding in Christ. And that's the check. As we abide in Christ, as we grow in Christ, and of course feeding on God's Word is one of the primary ways we do that, then we have every right and privilege to stand on our convictions that come from the Holy Spirit as we abide in Christ, and especially as we feed on God's Word.

Dr. Steve Tracy:
 John, obviously, he's not saying don't listen to teachers because John is writing to teach them. You know, there's a certain paradox here. You don't need, in one sense, you don't need a teacher, but in another sense, he's teaching you that you don't need another teacher. So there's a role for teachers, but it's a limited role. And if any spiritual leader acts as if they have the last word and the people under their care simply should shut up and listen to them and do what they say,

Dr. Steve Tracy:
 believe what they are teaching, end of discussion, then we have a problem here and we're moving into the category of spiritual abuse.

Julia:
 I also think of the passage in 1 Peter 2:9 where Peter talks to the Gentiles, telling them in the community of believers that they're a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation. And understanding the arc of where Peter was and where he ended up seems really important as well as I'm reflecting on what you're saying, that Peter was restricting access to the community of believers, and Paul went to him and opposed him to his face.

Julia:
 We read in Galatians, and it seems like the outcome even of that confrontation between Paul and Peter resulted in that passage where he's saying, you are a royal priesthood, a community of believers. And I think that's such a redemptive part of Scripture, that we have that even when a leader restricts access, there's still repentance and there's still a course correction.

Dr. Steve Tracy:
 Such a good point. Yeah. We're all fallible.

Ann Maree:
 Yes.

Dr. Steve Tracy:
 And the apostles sometimes got it wrong and needed others around them to point that out. Yeah, we do it with respect, etc., but better not put anyone on a pedestal. And if someone demands that we put them on a pedestal, that's proof positive that their voice is highly, highly, highly, highly suspect.

Ann Maree:
 Yes. So just listening to you and listening to both of you, I'm thinking if we were to simplify spiritual abuse, I think at the foundation there's an issue of authority, misuse of authority. Is that fair?

Dr. Steve Tracy:
 Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. Spiritual abuse, all the primary forms of abuse involve a misuse of power. And what makes any kind of abuse so damaging is because it perverts and attacks some aspect of the image of God. The image of God is the most fundamental characteristic that makes humans unique and gives them an inherent dignity and worth. It's because in various ways, we mirror who God is.

Dr. Steve Tracy:
 So Satan, the evil one, strategizes to promote abuse so that an aspect of who we are at the soul of being imago Dei, it is attacked. It's perverted. So with spiritual abuse, the beautiful side, the healthy side of image of God is that, if I could describe it this way, God gives, puts people in our life who are more mature than we are. And in some cases, they have levels of spiritual responsibility over us. So it could be a church leader. It could be a discipler, or it could be a teacher, could be a parent.

Dr. Steve Tracy:
 And if they're carrying out their role correctly, they're modeling what God looks like to those under their care. So when a spiritual leader is being fleshly, sinful, misusing their authority, that perverts what God looks like. And so that person that receives this treatment gets a marred image of God. And that can be exceedingly damaging.

Ann Maree:
 Well, Satan just delights in that.

Dr. Steve Tracy:
 Yeah, yeah.

Ann Maree:
 That's rich. Thank you for kind of even expanding out on the definition that I read. So given that that's kind of the dynamic that's happening, that's the definition, what can you tell us about the extent of spiritual abuse right now in the Christian culture?

Dr. Steve Tracy:
 It's the most pervasive I've seen in my lifetime. I'm in my late 60s. I mean, that's anecdotal, but there is research. Darrell Puls wrote a book, Let Us Prey, P-R-E-Y, and it was based on research he did with pastors. He found that a full third of pastors fit the diagnostic criteria for narcissistic personality disorder. Like, that is chilling.

Dr. Steve Tracy:
 Leaders who are narcissists are among the most dangerous because it's a disorder. It's all about them. And so, you give them a platform with power, and that power is going to be misused horribly. And we're just seeing unbelievable incidences of spiritual abuse in the church today. Very widespread.

Ann Maree:
 Yeah. Helpful to hear from you. You're in a different part of the country. You're in another denomination. But very helpful to hear that from you as well. It's not just one denomination. And our storyteller Helen, that's over and over. Each of her stories came from a different church, a different denomination. And so, yeah, we want to make that point very clear. It's not just happening in one place.

Dr. Steve Tracy:
 No. And then in the last few years, we've seen such an increase, I believe, politically and culturally, in power being leveraged against the vulnerable. This is not limited to one sphere or one denomination or even one political party, for that matter. We're in an increasingly harsh culture. We have growing numbers of young men who have bought into a vision of masculinity, and they aren't all religious. Certainly a subset are, but a lot of others aren't.

Dr. Steve Tracy:
 And that ends up in just grotesque kinds of masculinity that even champion abuse and the mistreatment of women and misogyny. Now that's at the extreme, but too, you have all kinds of gradients that aren't as extreme. But again, masculinity is all about the leveraging of power that's being championed and defended today. So again, the church is, we're creatures of our culture unless we are incredibly sensitive to the Spirit and to the Word of God to fight against that.

Dr. Steve Tracy:
 But we can go the same way, and that's what we're seeing.

Ann Maree:
 Yeah. Very sad.

Dr. Steve Tracy:
 Yeah.

Julia:
 We look a lot like the culture right now.

Dr. Steve Tracy:
 Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I've read a lot actually that the numbers are worse in the church. There's a statistic I recently read where whistleblowers coming forward in secular organizations, 40 to 60% are silenced or shunned, but in a church, it's 90%.

Dr. Steve Tracy:
 Wow. I haven't seen that, but I wouldn't dispute it.

Ann Maree:
 Yeah. Well, let's talk about our storyteller a little bit on that note, that she's coming from a variety of perspectives, a variety of experiences. And I think Julia has some really good questions about what we heard. So for our listeners, if you're not in a place where you can listen to her full interview, just want to say, that's okay.

Ann Maree:
 I truly believe that you can still learn a great deal just from the very themes that we're discussing, but if you are able, I'd really encourage you to listen, because it surfaces so many of the classic markers and patterns that we see in cases of spiritual abuse. She hits on nearly all of them. And one of the elements that I want to highlight is that harm often doesn't come up in dramatic moments within the church.

Ann Maree:
 Sometimes it can, but often it doesn't. Usually it can emerge in the very ordinary and everyday operations in the church, such as care conversations, membership interviews, staff meetings, staff emails, building campaigns, etc. So these seemingly routine spaces are often where the fault lines begin to appear in churches. So we have a clip that we will play from Helen, and then we'll talk about it.

Helen:
 So my husband went with me to meet with him, and we sat down. He looked at me and said, "I already know all about you," and then turned to my husband. And for the rest of the meeting, he talked to my husband, trying to talk him into being baptized so that he could become a number two, and I was absolutely crushed.

Helen:
 I wanted to be seen and listened to and cared for. And again, I was invisible. And then what was even stranger was the next weekend that he was like, okay, we're going to receive new members of the church. And so I was waiting for him to call my name because I was now a member of the church, and he never called my name.

Helen:
 And I was so confused. And after church, we went up to talk to him and he was like, he thought it would just be too awkward and weird for me to get called up front without my husband, so they would just wait until my husband decided to get baptized. And then we could both come forward. And it was yet another, I don't matter unless I'm attached in some way to my husband.

Helen:
 I, as an individual, do not matter. I am just a barnacle on my husband in some way.

Julia:
 So in Helen's story, the first crack, the first fault line, was her sense of feeling invisible. So she consistently felt unseen, diminished, dismissed, bypassed. And we often use the word erasure to describe this feeling. So why is invisibility one of, often, the earliest warning signs that a system is unsafe, and what makes it so powerful and devastating?

Dr. Steve Tracy:
 Being invisible, obviously, there can be some fairly innocuous reasons for feeling, I'm not being listened to, I'm not being seen. It's always, I mean, maybe I have a trigger from childhood, I wasn't seen in childhood, and yet in this church context, maybe that's actually not what's going on. So it's important to be self-aware, as self-aware as possible, and take that to the Lord, etc. But in fact, it sounds like Helen was invisible.

Dr. Steve Tracy:
 What's so damaging is there's plausible deniability from the one doing it, because if that's brought to his or her attention, it's usually a male, "Well, what are you talking about? But look, I did this, this, and this." So you're the crazy one, or you're ungrateful, or you're whatever. So it's hard to get at. And hence, that can then make the one who's actually not being seen, heard, listened to feel that they're the problem,

Dr. Steve Tracy:
 when in fact, it actually was a very legitimate experience, their interpretation of their experience. But it also can be really damaging because again, it distorts who God is. Satan wants us to think that God doesn't see, hear, or care. And if the spiritual leader that is to be representing God well doesn't pay attention to those under his care, doesn't see, doesn't listen, doesn't really care, then that can easily be extrapolated onto God.

Dr. Steve Tracy:
 And how destructive that is, to draw the conclusion that, oh, God's not paying attention. And it's really interesting how many times in Psalms you find evildoers saying God doesn't see, He's not paying attention. So the psalmist repeatedly, in multiple texts, reminds us God sees everything, good and bad. He sees every tear that His child sheds and keeps them in a metaphorical bottle.

Dr. Steve Tracy:
 And He sees everything that an evildoer does, that that person thinks is being hidden or overlooked by God Almighty. No, He sees it all and He responds to it all. He cares. So that's a significant message, to feel like you're not being seen, heard, cared about.

Julia:
 I appreciate you talking about the very subtle nature of those kinds of experiences, and how often for the woman or the man who's experiencing spiritual abuse, it comes up in confusion and often fear and anxiety because it's so confusing, right? And then coming forward and speaking that to somebody brings on its own anxiety and confusion.

Julia:
 And for then pastors to respond, if the person is able to say, I'm feeling unseen or unheard, then that just furthers the confusion, because pastors might be right that they are doing things in order to care for them, or they're trying to care for them in their own ways, but it just doesn't seem like they're being understood for what they're bringing forward. So I appreciate you mapping out how complex it is.

Dr. Steve Tracy:
 I would add, Julia, I spent 15 years as a pastor and several decades as a church ministry leader and continue in that role. The responsibility is on us as spiritual leaders. We have a serious character flaw if it's brought to our attention that someone is feeling not seen, not heard, and we immediately get defensive and don't listen.

Dr. Steve Tracy:
 My wife and I, in a few weeks, will be married 47 years. A long time.

Ann Maree:
 Congratulations.

Dr. Steve Tracy:
 Thank you. And there are still times that Celestia, and she's one of the most godly women I know, she's amazing, but there are times that she'll still say, "Steve, I feel like you're not hearing me. I feel like you're not seeing me." And unless I'm just being sinfully arrogant, which can happen, and I try to be quick to respond and repent, I need to just listen to that and say, well, that wasn't my intent, but that's what you experienced.

Dr. Steve Tracy:
 So, okay, what can I do that will help you feel more seen and heard? Because I want to see and hear you. I love you. I value you. Your opinion is really important to me. That's how a leader should respond.

Julia:
 And I also think what you're bringing out is that pastors can sometimes fall back on their intention, what they planned to do, versus the impact on another person, right? And we all become defensive at various times in our lives, and maybe in particular contexts we're more likely to become defensive. But it's the chronic nature of that defensiveness that becomes abusive, right?

Dr. Steve Tracy:
 Yeah. If you just basically dismiss the needs of the flock, "Well, but I am being a loving leader and I didn't mean to hurt you." Well, okay, that's much better than meaning to hurt them. But if you're still hurting them by the way you're relating to them, you'd do well to reconsider how you're relating to them. Be teachable.

Dr. Steve Tracy:
 Now obviously there's limits to this. Some people have some wounding, and what they're demanding we just can't legitimately respond to. You know, there's a level of brokenness that makes it untenable. But even then, we need to respond with compassion and sensitivity and offer all that we legitimately can. But it's on us as leaders to, I think of the way Paul, an apostle with the ultimate spiritual authority, the way he... And Paul almost never leveraged his authority.

Dr. Steve Tracy:
 And he had an authority that no pastor has today because he was an apostle, and that was a unique role in the early church. But Paul very, very, very, very rarely appealed to his apostolic authority. He appealed to his love. He appealed to the relationship. He was very soft in the exercise of his authority, if you will. And I think in 1 Thessalonians 2, the way he describes his relationship with the Thessalonians, and he goes so far, this is bold masculinity,

Dr. Steve Tracy:
 he compares himself to a nursing mother who tenderly nurtured and cared for the infant children. Now you got to be pretty secure in who you are as a man to use that analogy. Let's redefine what healthy masculinity looks like here. What a picture for what spiritual leadership should look like in terms of how the leader relates to those under his or her care.

Ann Maree:
 Is this kind of shepherding taught in seminaries? Because that sounds beautiful. I don't remember it from my seminary, though. I've never been to seminary, so that's why I'm asking the question.

Dr. Steve Tracy:
 You know, I had a few seminary profs who modeled it well, and I've known some profs who've modeled it well. I'll let my students decide how well I modeled it. That was certainly my goal. It's interesting that Paul, again, going back to Paul on numerous occasions, 1 Corinthians 11, Philippians 4, and elsewhere, appeals to his life. He told the Corinthians, "Be imitators of me as I am an imitator of Christ."

Dr. Steve Tracy:
 Philippians 4, "The things you have heard and seen in me, do, and the God of peace shall be with you." Whoa. What a tall order. And there's no arrogance there. It's just, I'm following Jesus. So to the extent that I'm following Jesus, follow my example. Again, I contrast that to, "Do what I say. I am your authority. I know what's best for you. Do what I say."

Dr. Steve Tracy:
 And Paul tenderly said, "Do what I do. I love you. Follow my example because I'm following Jesus, our collective Great Shepherd." Those are two dramatically different models of spiritual leadership.

Julia:
 And the picture of the shepherd is one who holds the rod and the staff, the one who guides, walks alongside, and protects the sheep from danger.

Dr. Steve Tracy:
 Exactly. Yeah. And again, so often, I'm afraid to say, I hate to say, but it's reality, shepherds don't understand that one of their foundational primary responsibilities is to protect, to nurture and protect the flock. Jesus models that for us. His harshest words, hands down, no close second, were leveled at the Pharisees, the spiritual leaders of His day. Matthew 23 is just over and over.

Dr. Steve Tracy:
 He calls them hypocrites and whitewashed tombs. I mean, He just, both barrels, lets them have it because they were harming the vulnerable sheep. Early in that chapter He says, with your traditions, you're crushing people. You're putting a load on their shoulders they can't carry. And that enraged our Lord. And yet it was the downcast, it was the morally questionable woman, the woman taken in adultery, the sinful woman, if you will,

Dr. Steve Tracy:
 it was tax collectors and sinners that gravitated to Jesus. He was so tender in the way He related to them and cared for them. What a model for us as spiritual leaders. God calls us to protect. God calls us to care for.

Julia:
 Yes. And circling back to the original question about this invisibility or feeling unseen, a pastor can't shepherd and protect somebody that he doesn't see.

Dr. Steve Tracy:
 No, no. You can give your edicts from on high, so to speak, in the pulpit, but you can't shepherd, not well.

Julia:
 So I appreciate you as well bringing up the topic of emotional health and wellness and emotional maturity. The second fault line we hear about in Helen's story has to do with her sense of emotional control, feeling emotionally controlled by those around her. And we have a clip to play.

Helen:
 Yeah, this is probably the first mile marker in my journey of experience after experience that moved me along this transformation. We were in the Reformed Presbyterian denomination for several decades in total, that we had been attending this one conservative Presbyterian church that had a lot of really good things about it. And that's the thing. So many church experiences that end up being painful don't start out that way. If they did, we wouldn't have stayed.

Helen:
 But churches so often can shapeshift over time, and then sometimes it's just a matter of some things you don't see until you see them. But in this particular situation, my mother had died back sometime before 2010, and a few months later our pastor called and asked to pay a visit, which he had never done before, even though we had been a part of this church for years.

Helen:
 And when he came over, he explained to me that when he was in seminary, he had been taught that oftentimes people hit a wall emotionally with their grief at about six months after the death of a loved one, and that it's important to check in with them. And I had never felt so seen. I thought, oh my gosh, he cares. And yes, life was hard at that point. That was the year I had four teenagers. Life was hard at that point.

Helen:
 And I was a puddle. I just melted when I heard him say that. But after I was able to get out a few words about what was happening with me and what I was feeling, he turned to my husband and started talking to him, and they talked for the rest of the night. He never said anything else to me. And then he left, and it was like I had never existed. And it absolutely broke my heart.

Helen:
 And I understand that men are more comfortable with men. And in the Reformed Presbyterian world, emotions are like hot potatoes that you want to toss to the next player as soon as possible.

Julia:
 Yeah. So in this clip, we hear both how she was rendered invisible, but also she said it perfectly about emotions being like hot potatoes. Her grief was avoided. Her emotions were dismissed. People talked about her, but they didn't talk to her. And pastors became angry and chronically defensive, like we talked about a little bit earlier. She also named the gendered stereotype that women are too emotional or too much, while men are assumed to be more rational and logical.

Julia:
 This isn't what we find in Scripture. This isn't theology. It's also not psychology. It's control. Would you agree? And how do you see this? How have you seen this historically play out in the church?

Dr. Steve Tracy:
 Oh my goodness. Loaded questions, Julia. This goes back to the ancient Greeks. I could wax eloquent for several hours on this, but I'll just try to be very brief. Going back to the ancient Greeks, and the Romans inherited the same very flawed anthropology that was exceedingly misogynistic, namely that men are the rational ones. And I could point to numerous ancient texts that I shared, shared many of these with my students.

Dr. Steve Tracy:
 Men are inherently superior to women because men are rational. The Greeks went so far as to postulate that a female is a defective male in the gestation process. And again, the same thing, that was a Roman understanding and that was the Jewish understanding. And that was the basis for a woman in ancient Israel not being able to give testimony in a Jewish court. The text, pretty sure it's in Josephus, that talks about that, because women can't give testimony in court because of their rash, emotional, unstable characteristics.

Dr. Steve Tracy:
 So God comes along and says, okay, I'm going to choose a woman to be the first witness of the most significant event in human history, the resurrection of the Messiah. Boom. It would be a woman. But yeah, that is with us. Maybe not that extreme, but certainly in conservative and certainly Reformed, but I would say evangelicalism in general circles, there is this, whether it's explicit or implicit, thinking that women are too emotional, men are the ones that should be the leaders and are the ones that should be listened to because they're the rational ones.

Dr. Steve Tracy:
 So I validate the observation. I condemn it because I think, I don't think, I know Scripture condemns it. Tell me God's not emotional. My goodness. My favorite theologian, Les Parrott, is fond of saying no one's more emotional than God. I just read through the Scriptures. And I am not a theologian who has a little section in my forthcoming book that defends this, that God is impassible, He does not have emotion, and that is absolutely wrong biblically.

Dr. Steve Tracy:
 A broad, broad range of emotions are attributed to God, and He's made us emotional beings. I would argue that our emotions, in a sense, mirror who God is, from love to hate to jealousy. I'm not going to say every single emotion, but a very broad range of emotions. Emotions aren't inherently, most aren't inherently wrong. They tell us something about what's going on in our soul. Our emotions are absolutely flawed by sin.

Dr. Steve Tracy:
 But as I often remind my students, our emotions are no more flawed by sin than are our minds. Scripture talks about the noetic effect, the effect of sin on our thinking. Scripture often, particularly the New Testament, talks about the way sin darkens the mind, corrupts our thoughts, etc. So, in general, women do tend to be more emotionally sensitive than men. I think that's fair, but that's a very general, general characteristic.

Dr. Steve Tracy:
 You certainly have some men who are very sensitive, some women who are more rational. There's nothing wrong with that. But I mean, if we want to make some broad, sweeping generalizations, sure, women do tend to be more emotionally sensitive. But how is that inferior or less than? That doesn't make sense logically. It doesn't make sense biblically.

Dr. Steve Tracy:
 And you know, the other thing, it's so sad that Helen's pastor didn't just listen to the biblical admonition to rejoice with those who rejoice, and weep with those who weep. That's it. We're called to do that as spiritual leaders. But often we are, maybe more so men as a general rule, very afraid of emotion, and especially the dark emotions, if you will, grief being one of them. And so we run from it.

Dr. Steve Tracy:
 So we don't minister well to people who are filled with dark emotions like grief, because we don't know how to do that ourselves. And then we don't shepherd as God would have us shepherd. The only thing I'd add to that is spend some time in the Psalms, for crying out loud. Any pastor that thinks that dark emotions are just a woman's thing has not read the Psalms. The Psalms are inspired Scripture, and they're so often raw.

Dr. Steve Tracy:
 And Calvin himself, the great Reformed theologian, in the introduction to his commentary on Psalms, says, my language, he wrote it in French, but the Psalms are essentially an encyclopedia of human emotion, a full encyclopedia. There's hardly an emotion you won't see reflected in the Psalms. And so if we are not comfortable as men or women with emotions, we've got work to do before God.

Ann Maree:
 And I'm just thinking how sad this is. And it's not a, I'm not trying to say women's lib, but in all male-led denominations, if that's true, what you're speaking is true, and I don't doubt that it is, that women are more in tune with emotions, and yet they're not the ones doing the shepherding care. And I don't mean to have women pastors, preachers, whatever. I'm just talking about care.

Ann Maree:
 It's very sad if those who aren't gifted with that are the ones, the only ones allowed to do it. It kind of feels devastating.

Dr. Steve Tracy:
 I couldn't agree more. It's ironic that the label complementarian is used for a lot of theological systems that really have no place for women in leadership whatsoever, or even at just the ministry in general, other than the kitchen or the nursery. How is that complementarian?

Ann Maree:
 Yeah.

Dr. Steve Tracy:
 Where God made two genders and they are different, and He made us, made two genders truly to complement. I love the word, but let's live that out. We need each other. I will go so far as to say the fullness of the image of God I don't believe is seen just in one gender, be it male or female for that matter. It's together that we most fully mirror who God is, and it's together as men and women that we can most fully serve the body of Christ, because we need what the other has to offer.

Dr. Steve Tracy:
 I can't begin to count the ways Celestia advances my ministry because she is just so different. Her gifts, her wiring. I'm a stereotypical male, high testosterone, boxed in college, all that. And Celestia is so sensitive and emotional. But again, my point is not this is the typical. The point is that we're very different, and I need that. We need what each other brings to the table.

Dr. Steve Tracy:
 And in our differing expressions of masculinity and femininity, the microcosm is seen in marriage. But it's equally true in the collective body of Christ. We need what both genders have to offer. And so if it's just males at the table, we're crippled. I will use that word. It's a good word.

Julia:
 And the impact is also felt for men who are emotionally mature and have that emotional awareness and depth within the church. Like, they are affected by that patriarchy and syncretism that has crept into the church. For my husband, using as an example, he is quick to tears when he hears somebody's story, and I think that shows his emotional maturity, that he's free to express his tears and he wants other people to see it.

Julia:
 But other men can easily shun him for that because that is not a quote-unquote masculine trait. So it hurts men too.

Dr. Steve Tracy:
 That's such a good point, Julia. Thank you for raising that. And that's great that your husband has that kind of sensitivity. So as Les Parrott often says, and as Steve found his tears in Congo, and I did almost 20 years ago, we went to the Democratic Republic of the Congo for the first time, and that's now the heart of our ministry, and it's gotten worse and worse. I can't even talk about most of what we see and hear and not be brought to tears.

Dr. Steve Tracy:
 Like even right now, it's just so painful. The losses are so severe. I was crippled when I was so distanced from my emotions because my masculinity was about power. I was literally a powerlifter, weightlifter in my younger years, and I thought that was what made me the most masculine guy in the world. And that's fine, I still lift weights, but that doesn't define me the way it did in my younger years.

Dr. Steve Tracy:
 I am no longer afraid of shedding tears over the things that break God's heart. God forbid that I can sit with an abuse survivor and distance myself emotionally over his or her pain. Something is spiritually anemic, if not broken, in me that I don't enter in with the compassion that brings me to tears. I'll say it that plainly.

Ann Maree:
 Oh, thank you for sharing. It's good to hear that.

Julia:
 It is good.

Ann Maree:
 That's bringing me to tears now.

Julia:
 Yeah. It's just, anemic is the word that stuck with me of the experiences and the stories I've heard of how people in the church have responded to the victims and their stories. And you know, anemic is a good word.

Dr. Steve Tracy:
 Yeah. And again, if we're going to think biblically, which we should be, let's do a little word study of tears in the Bible, and you'll be amazed how many males weep in the Bible, not the least of which are the Apostle Paul and our Lord Jesus. Like, we've got a very flawed understanding of masculinity today. And it is hurting the whole body of Christ, men and women. Again, thank you, Julia, for noting the way it hurts men as well, healthier, more sensitive men. It hurts all of us when we're shut down.

Julia:
 And as an addictions counselor, I have also seen how when you're emotionally stunted or have an immaturity or trauma that prevents that kind of emotional awareness, you often go to things to help regulate, like substances or pornography, right? But then that just further catalyzes that emotional immaturity and less ability to tolerate your emotions and to tolerate distress.

Julia:
 And so it becomes this vicious cycle of running to something for regulation, which then further entrenches you in the toxic and sinful dynamic. And we see that in the church as well, that pornography does have a hold on our spiritual leaders, and it also begins to disciple and condition the leaders to objectify those in their midst. So I'm wondering if you could speak to that, or if you have any particular wisdom on that subject matter.

Dr. Steve Tracy:
 And I worked for quite a few years with men struggling with pornography and other kinds of sexual sin compulsions. It's a false intimacy. God is a God in relationship for all eternity, Father, Son, and Spirit. He made us in His image. Genesis 1:26-28, male and female, in His image. He is, He's a relational being. He makes us relational beings.

Dr. Steve Tracy:
 And just as a solo human being would not have mirrored who God is. And so our sexuality is fundamental to who we are as a human being. And that's much, much, much more than the sex act. We often reduce sexuality to sexual intercourse, and that's most unfortunate. Our culture does that, or if we're listening to our culture over Scripture. And you're right, Satan tries to seduce us with a false intimacy that short-circuits the hard work of real intimacy,

Dr. Steve Tracy:
 which involves vulnerability and sacrifice and a whole lot of things, for a quick fix, if you will. And that quick fix only makes us thirstier and thirstier, and hence that you get that addictive cycle going because you do more of the unhealthy thing to satiate your soul. But the unhealthy sinful thing only leaves you, it's like trying to quench your thirst by drinking seawater. You just get thirstier.

Dr. Steve Tracy:
 Which, I'll bring it back to the leadership. We have congregations filled with sinners and who have experienced all manner of brokenness. It's a very broken culture, sexually and relationally and in other ways. So we, as the spiritual leaders, must be modeling, demonstrating, not perfection, because that doesn't come until we're glorified, but health. We meet the qualifications of spiritual leadership so that we can model what healthy emotions look like, what healthy relationships look like.

Dr. Steve Tracy:
 We're able to hold people's pain in a way that maybe they've not experienced before, that what they're used to is when there's pain, they numb. But we relate to them in such a way that we can demonstrate healthy emotions, we can hold their pain. And we're really keen on small groups for healing. We have a workbook for abuse survivors. And one of the things we talk about is the power of sharing your story in a group, because you've got people that are really shut down emotionally,

Dr. Steve Tracy:
 particularly in the early stages of trauma healing. Typically, survivors don't feel, if they feel anything, well, they always feel toxic shame. That's almost universal. And maybe anger in some cases, but often just nothing. They're just numb.

Julia:
 Yes, numb.

Dr. Steve Tracy:
 But as you share a little bit of your story in a small group, it doesn't have to be a formal small group, could just be in a healthy relationship in the body of Christ, you get the courage to share a little piece of who you are. If that other person is healthy, they're walking with Jesus over time, and there's some real health, they may respond with healthy emotion to a piece of your story that you don't have emotion for yet, and they model for you what the healthy emotional response is to what you had experienced.

Dr. Steve Tracy:
 And that can, one, model for you what's appropriate, but it also can help you start to thaw from your emotional numbness. And it's as if they can help awaken the healthy emotional response in you. I've seen that over and over, and it's a beautiful thing, but it necessitates the leader being emotionally healthy.

Ann Maree:
 I love that, and it goes back to our original point that we've been talking about, the priesthood of all believers, and we need one another, and we are God's image to one another. I think Dietrich Bonhoeffer has a quote about the Word being given to us by a fellow believer sometimes as more healing or more tolerable in the moment because we can hear it from somebody who images Christ but is also human like we are.

Dr. Steve Tracy:
 Yes. Yeah, it's a beautiful concept.

Julia:
 So going back to Helen's story, I want to just kind of settle on one last point because as Ann Maree and I know, well, we've experienced this in spades, where professional expertise is discounted. So as Helen begins to tell her story, she is gaining a lot of wisdom, a lot of case experience. She's seen a lot. She has shepherded a lot. And she's still feeling trapped and stuck in her situation.

Julia:
 And ironically, she does a rather rational and logical thing, is that she provides resources for her pastors in the form of Dr. Diane Langberg, who we all know is the utmost expert, and they use exclusively, in abuse and trauma, especially within faith communities, right? But even that was shut down. So, and even in my head I'm hearing the quotes by Rachel Denhollander of, "I've done everything you told me to do, everything you taught me to be, and still it wasn't enough,"

Julia:
 which just shows me that it's not about the resources. It's not about my expertise. It's not about how I care and shepherd people. It's actually more about your power and holding onto authority. So I think that that highlights as well something that she says, Helen in her story, about ignorance and arrogance and maybe the difference between the two. What is the difference, and at what point does something like ignorance and arrogance become abusive?

Dr. Steve Tracy:
 The Scripture, of course, has so much to say about the virtue of humility and so much to warn us about the divisive pride. I think of Proverbs in particular. Wow, this book of wisdom, over and over, probably Solomon tells his son, be teachable, be humble. So much so that he says, if you love wisdom, you will love correction, and you will love a person who corrects you. It's a gift. But a foolish person hates correction, admonition.

Dr. Steve Tracy:
 So we don't know what we don't know. But when someone points out something we don't know, they try to help us realize there's something that you don't understand here, that then gives us an opportunity to show whether we're wise or foolish. So a foolish person will push back, act indignant, "I'm the spiritual leader. Who are you to tell me blah blah blah?" And a wise person will at least weigh it. I mean, we need to be discriminating. Of course Scripture commends that.

Dr. Steve Tracy:
 But if someone just dismisses out of hand a counter-position, an observation, an insight, unless it's just patently unbiblical, I mean, there's certain things someone could tell me. But even then I should still try to understand why they believe that and seek for greater understanding. But I may, other than that scenario, if I'm being wise based on biblical descriptions, I'm going to really consider that. I'm going to listen and consider whether, in fact, I just have a blind spot in my knowledge.

Dr. Steve Tracy:
 "Well, I never understood that. Tell me more." And then that would start me on a journey of discovery. I'm not saying we take everything that every survivor comes to us with as gospel truth. You're not saying that, and I don't think Helen was saying that. But it says we listen attentively. We take seriously what's being said and consider whether, in fact, we had a gap in our knowledge that really needs to be supplemented here, especially from people who've had experiences we haven't had.

Dr. Steve Tracy:
 I had a practice in particular, my last pastorate, where I preached pretty often. I wasn't the only preaching pastor, but two or three times a month. And I would routinely, especially if it was either a controversial topic or something that I just felt like my experience was really limited, I would go to a few individuals in my church, say, "I'm preaching on divorce." I would go to a few divorcees and let them read my sermon and give me some insights.

Dr. Steve Tracy:
 I remember doing a sermon on homosexuality, and there was a man in our ministry who had AIDS that he got from the gay lifestyle. And I said, "I want to take you out to lunch. I don't understand the struggles that you live with, and I want to better understand." And he gave me incredibly helpful feedback that filled in some big gaps. We need that from each other. So again, do I agree with 100% of what he said? No. But man, he helped me understand things I didn't know.

Dr. Steve Tracy:
 So in the case of a male leader who is getting feedback from a female abuse survivor, listen up, because you've never been a woman and maybe you've never had the piece she's experienced. So what would you know about the specifics? She has something to teach you. And even if, say for the sake of argument, she is a domestic violence survivor, and in the rare instance you grew up as a male with domestic violence in your own family, there's still things for her to teach you because no two experiences are the same.

Dr. Steve Tracy:
 And that's where we need the other to bless us, to help fill in those gaps.

Ann Maree:
 And I was talking with someone earlier who's encountered somebody in her life who has what we call the sin of certainty. Julia recommended the book to me a couple of years ago. I still haven't read it, but the title keeps coming back to me. And really, what you're describing is the opposite of that, which is humility. I don't know everything. I don't see everything the way you see it. But even that's being used in the opposite way as a weapon by saying, "Well, that's your perspective,"

Ann Maree:
 with the intention of meaning the other person who said that perspective has authority over even the victim's. But yeah. And another friend who tells me all the time, humility, oh gosh, I lost the phrase. But anyway, it's very important. It's most important, I guess. Humility wins the day, I think is what she says.

Dr. Steve Tracy:
 It does. Yeah, yeah. I often remind my students that Augustine, one of the greatest theologians in the history of the Christian church, toward the end of his life, wrote a book called, and in English, Retractions. Now the Latin word written, retractions, is not exactly the same as the English, so it can mean clarifications. But basically, here are the things that I've taught and written over the years that I now see a little differently.

Ann Maree:
 That's excellent.

Dr. Steve Tracy:
 Yeah. I remember now. I know this. If Augustine, toward the end of his life, would do that, I think we would do well to have the same posture.

Ann Maree:
 Maybe. Yeah. And I think I'm going to start writing my version of that now.

Ann Maree:
 We don't have a whole lot of time left, and I'm even thinking perhaps when your book releases, maybe we can get back together and do a review with you, because I think it's really important work. And I think our audience, especially the audience listening to this particular topic on spiritual abuse, is going to benefit from it.

Ann Maree:
 And I really love how you broke it down. The beginning of the book is more like the theology. It's, this is how you interpret Scripture. These are some of the historically, the ways that we've come to the translations that we've gotten to, and then you show how they went amiss. And so one by one, you take on some pretty significant passages, I think, for our community, for our audience to understand at least a different perspective. I mean, if you're in the Reformed community, for sure, you've been hearing something very different.

Ann Maree:
 And so it'd be helpful. But anyway, as I was thinking about it when I was reading the beginning section, and if you could just touch on this one topic, because like I said, this is so important. It's the one problem in the church that I don't know that... well, there's many problems, the church abuse being one of them, right? But people are not, it's like the Reformation again, people are not opening the Word of God and doing what you've said, being the priesthood of all believers,

Ann Maree:
 you know, being the prophet, priest, thinking and doing the work of interpretation. They're just reading everybody else's commentaries, etc. Anyway, getting to the point of my question, in seminary one of our professors regularly, in every class, was our New Testament professor, he would say, "Context is king." And I think this is where, especially when we're talking about, and you brought it up a little earlier, especially when we're talking about women and their voices being heard, their knowledge, their experience being utilized or whatever,

Ann Maree:
 can you talk a little bit more broadly about that idea when it comes to interpretation, context, and how important it could be to even our discussion about spiritual abuse?

Dr. Steve Tracy:
 Yeah, I certainly agree with your professor, though obviously I identify six principles for interpretation, the second one being let Scripture interpret Scripture. And I think it's almost as important as context, but we may have to do another broadcast to tease that one out. But context, I think rightfully, is number one because you can make Scripture say just about anything you want it to say if you don't consider the context, both the immediate and the remote context.

Dr. Steve Tracy:
 And pastors, well, any human beings, not just pastors, any human being who has a halfway decent knowledge of Scripture or thinks they do can bully people into accepting their interpretation simply because they're quoting Scripture. And laypeople don't want to disagree with the Bible, right, because it's God's Word. So if someone forcefully says, "This is what the Bible says," and they quote the verse, that can very quickly be intimidating.

Dr. Steve Tracy:
 But if that verse that they're quoting, or it may just be a phrase, is taken out of the context of the passage or the chapter or sometimes the book, what they may be saying that seems really clear and seems to clearly support their point, in fact, it may be teaching heresy. It may be teaching the opposite of what you think, what they're saying that it's teaching. I mean, I could give some examples if you'd like, but context is so, so important.

Dr. Steve Tracy:
 So for those in our audience who found Scripture misused against them, or they're just confused, I really want to emphasize getting into God's Word for yourself. Luke commended the Bereans in the book of Acts who, when Paul came and preached to them, even though he was an apostle, they searched the Scriptures to see for themselves if it was true. We need to do the same thing today.

Dr. Steve Tracy:
 And one of the ways we will know a given teaching is true is to look carefully at the context of the verse or phrase that's being cited.

Ann Maree:
 I think I have one more question. I think we can fit in, and then we'll have to let you go. And it's just usually the last question I typically ask, which is, what should we be asking you?

Dr. Steve Tracy:
 It's a good question. You've asked really good questions. One thing that comes to my mind would be, what is the number one biblical message that abuse survivors need to hear? And I would say that that message is God detests abuse. He abhors unrepentant abusers. And He is overwhelmingly committed to redeeming all abuse, all injustice.

Dr. Steve Tracy:
 It's so important for survivors to understand that because often, because of our experiences, people in our lives that we trusted, maybe a parent, maybe a church leader, maybe a trusted friend who, when we shared a little bit of our story, didn't respond well, they shamed us, or they just denied that it happened, or they didn't listen and didn't care, we can extrapolate that onto God. And that's exactly what Satan wants.

Dr. Steve Tracy:
 And then we grow to distrust God, and then we can, you know, add experiences to that, add distortions of Scripture to that, and you have a little cocktail. So I think the number one is to know that God absolutely detests abuse and unrepentant abusers. And Psalm 5, Psalm 11, that's exactly what it says, and Proverbs, "These six things the Lord hates, yes, seven are an abomination." And the majority of the sins on that list of, I think it's seven, are abuse-related.

Dr. Steve Tracy:
 God detests abuse, and He pronounces the harshest judgment, and notch in a book, on unrepentant abusers. That's His posture. And if that's all we had, it would be a very truncated message, but, and He is completely, utterly committed to redeeming all the abuse, oppression we've suffered, to heal it, to redeem it, and to use it for good. Doesn't make it good, but He's infinitely powerful and creative to bring good out of that which was meant to destroy us.

Dr. Steve Tracy:
 Our ministry is built on that truth. And we have a front-row seat in Congo and around the world and here in the U.S. to see the beautiful ways God brings beauty from ashes, to use the language of Isaiah 61.

Ann Maree:
 Yeah. A beautiful word. Thank you. Thank you for that. And I'm trying not to cry because then I have to write it down.

Julia:
 All emotions are welcome.

Ann Maree:
 And then I'll have to do the gymnastics to get at the tissues. This has been rich, rich, rich, as I anticipated it would be. And I can't commend your books enough to our survivors and victims and our communities, and also to the leaders who are hopefully caring for them. And it's just been such a joy to get to know you a little bit and hear you speak. So thank you again for being with us.

Dr. Steve Tracy:
 My joy. Thank you ladies for doing this. And together we can make a difference in the lives of men and women, young people, who have tragically been so damaged by abuse. Everyone plays a part that they can play with God's help. Collectively can make a tremendous difference. So I'm thankful for your podcast and the work you're doing.

Ann Maree:
 Thankful for you too. Thank you. And for our audience, just to remind you, the name of the book coming out in early January from Zondervan, To Heal or Harm: How Scriptures Can Be Poison or Medicine to Abuse Survivors, and we look forward to hearing from you again, Dr. Tracy.

Dr. Steve Tracy:
 I look forward to it.

Ann Maree:
 Safe to Hope is made possible by donors who believe faithfulness means protecting survivors and honoring the dignity of their stories. Their support allows us to remain independent, trauma-specialized, and committed to truth-telling without pressure or performance. We are deeply grateful to our donors for their partnership. If this conversation stirred something for you, please know you do not have to carry it alone.

Ann Maree:
 Support resources are listed in the show notes, and you're welcome to reach out in the ways that feel safest for you. Safe to Hope is a production of Help Her. Our executive producer is Ann Maree Goudzwaard.