Across the Counter
This podcast is a passion project where we interview a diverse blend of musicians, authors, podcasters, pastors, and thinkers about semi religious topics.
Instead of listening to respond or debate, we listen to understand through finding common ground and hearing our guests’ stories.
So grab your beverage of choice and pull up a seat Across the Counter!
Learn more at www.atcpodcast.com
Across the Counter
Going for a Walk | Michael Gungor | Episode 44
Use Left/Right to seek, Home/End to jump to start or end. Hold shift to jump forward or backward.
Join us as we sit Across the Counter from singer-songwriter, producer, music editor, author, and podcast host Michael Gungor. He is the front man for Gungor, a band which has been nominated for multiple Grammy Awards.
In this ATC Episode:
• We traverse the spectrum of belief and creativity, delving into Michael's personal evolution from the confines of traditional Christianity to a more expansive spirituality.
• Our dialogue weaves through the complexities of faith, the beauty of artistic expression, and the courage it takes to embrace one's authentic self, even when it leads away from established norms.
• Michael's candid reflections offer a poignant perspective on the intricate dance between the pursuit of truth and the desire for community.
• With a joyful leap into the lighter side of life, we explore the whimsical realms of Michael's side projects like Weiwu and the Mystic Hymnal, illuminating how playfulness can be a conduit for inspiration.
Join us for an exploration that promises to gently challenge your perceptions.
Connect with Michael:
Instagram: @michaelgungor
Website: www.gungormusic.com
Beliefs espoused by the guests of ATC are not necessarily the beliefs and convictions of ATC.
That said the intent of our podcast is to listen, remain curious and never fear failure in the discovery life giving truth. Many people we ardently disagree with have been our greatest teachers.
Pull up a chair across the counter. Your one-stop shop for a variety of perspectives around Jesus and Christianity. I'm Grant Lockridge and I'm here with Logan Rice and Michael Gungor. He is the lead singer of a little band called Gungor and a huge band in the Christian space. I listen to them a whole whole bunch in high school now and Logan go ahead and ask the first question over here.
Speaker 2Yeah well first of all, very excited for you to join us and thank you for your willingness. I did a Google search Just Google Michael Gunga Quick Goog, if you will and it's always really fascinating because one of the first things that popped up is what happened to Michael Gungor, and it's three or four Christian apologetics, folks or whoever it may be, that's saying what happened and that's an interesting thing. I can't imagine what that's like to have your name Googled and that's the first thing that popped up is what happened to you. So I want to open up the platform for this and in your book, also called this, you have kind of the artist or the author statement, if you will, says you, you know, you're reluctant, Christian Grammy nominee and winner.
Speaker 2And I want to hear, we want to hear from you rather than a swath of other people Like what is your journey? Where are you now? Where are you? Know, the folks that are saying what happened to you? What era of your life are they referring to and how did you become to you? What era of your life are they referring to and how did you become and where are you today from that journey?
Speaker 3Yeah, it is an interesting question because you have to, I have to imagine who the people are and where they wanted me on the journey, because, from my vantage point, I've just been walking down the sidewalk and it's like what happened to you and I'm still just walking down the sidewalk. What do you mean?
Speaker 2I'm right here.
Speaker 3So I mean the people that probably wrote those articles, or the. My guess is there was a certain stage or brand of Christianity that tends to put a lot of red tape around. What you have to think and believe in order to be part of that community still so like the us there is really defined severely by specific stances, and, interestingly, there's probably multiple for some of those communities. It's like when they heard me say something about Genesis that I read Genesis metaphorically they were like, well, that's beyond the pale, that's past. Where you can go to stay part of our community and other people. It was hearing us talk about gay people or whatever the thing is, or how I think about the.
Speaker 3So, whatever it was was like they perceived me within the realms of what's acceptable to think in their community, and then they heard something that I said that was outside of that tape. It's like, oh, you're gone. So what happened to you People? From what my experience is, they assume that there must have been some tremendous pain or rebellion or something they kind of project out of what it would take for them maybe to make those leaps. From my perspective again, though, I've just been walking down the sidewalk and walking towards what seems true and lovely and beautiful to me.
Speaker 1It is a six-day creation and if you think anything other than that, not a Christian. That's where I'm at.
Speaker 3Not a Christian Good. Well, I'm just kidding. Add your comments to the articles.
Speaker 1Dude, if you don't believe that it's literal 24-hour days, not a Christian, add your comments to the articles. Sure kind of situation. And there's a billboard going out of south carolina that basically said the earth was created in six days and like that's. There was the whole billboard and it was just like somebody paid to put that up there. They believe that so hard that they were like that is worth paying the money monthly to put on a billboard that kind of crazy, yeah, I mean it's.
Speaker 3The thing, though, is that kind of thinking whether, like, it's easy to point out the extremes and you know, um, that is an extreme for most of us but that line gets extended and it doesn't. It's. It's in christianity, but it's not just in christianity here in I live in LA, and that line gets extended the other way. It's like you could be my friend, but if I found out you voted for Donald Trump, then you're out. Most of us, our communities, are built on some sort of red tape like what defines who's in and who's out, and who's out and uh, when, when, those when that red tape is like way beyond what I think is reasonable. Then it's easy to laugh at, but for some people it's real, and for some people that's uh scary. Those questioning genesis really does feel. It's almost like existential for them.
Speaker 1So I I I'm one hand, can laugh about it, but on the other hand, I I can also have compassion that's true for for the people that feel like that is an important issue, to die on that hill, not one of those extremes, just to, you know, not be an extreme, but know that other people would like say that that's the biggest issue, the six day creation or whatever it is. It is, you know, super empathetic to to to look at that from their point of view. So I would definitely say that that's super valid and important to do so. You said, like this red tape thing, right, I'm curious because you do have some sort of version of a community gathering and I'm curious what that kind of looks like for you in your specific community. Do you not have any red tape, Is it like? I'm just curious how that looks.
Speaker 3Yeah, it's an interesting, interesting, it's a great question like, um, how do you, how do you build community without some sort of red tape? And it does seem for me it's, it's a kind of an alive question that keeps always adjusting. But for me, I think I'm more interested in the living, um, practical sort of this sort of behavior is not welcome in the community. More than, like, these sort of thoughts aren't welcome to me. Thoughts are very ephemeral and they're always changing and the beliefs would be in that line of things. But like we can't have people come in and just, you know, be touching everybody non-consensually. It's not welcome. You can't be here and be violating everyone else's space like that and their bodies, that's red tape.
Speaker 3For when I'm, if I'm, a facilitator of some sort of communal space, you know, but finding, like, what is what are appropriate beliefs, I'm trying, I personally strive, to not put any red tape up with my interactions with people, my love for people. Um, again, insofar as what, what happening in them, like their beliefs, their feelings. But sometimes boundaries are necessary with people that don't know how to keep those things inside themselves, that don't know how to keep their feelings, you can be angry. But if you're going around in your anger and hitting everybody. We need some boundaries to keep you away, keep people safe. But the internal boundaries I strive to, not I don't have those. I have love for everyone and seek to recognize what we share in our existence, in our humanity and in our divinity. In my view, and does that answer the question at all? It's a little ambiguous, but it's. It's more behavioral and practical than, like you, you have to think a certain way yeah, I, I understand.
Speaker 1Um, so the red tape is more, you know, boundaries, of trying to keep people not doing anything like physical or it really it sounds like anything hateful in general, like it seems like you want to, you know, encourage love and put boundaries around anything that would be hateful I mean I could, even somebody I could I could even perceive someone's attitudes, be and and thoughts and views as hateful, and that's still fine, I just can.
Speaker 3You, can you own your own space, like and that's it is physical, but it's also you know, somebody's shouting with a bullhorn in the middle of a, of a service or a group, or like you're still not honoring everybody else's space in a way. So it's like, can you own your own experience in a way, and your own thoughts and perspectives enough to be part of a conversation? You can have any, any perspective, any feelings, including hate. You can be hateful, as we want, towards all of us, that's fine. But, um, can you operate with boundaries that allow everybody to have their own experience as well? So that's what's important to me okay, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2What was the? I guess a question I would have is you know, assuming that you're you're leading these spaces or or serving as kind of the chief facilitator of these spaces, have you personally, you know, going back to the sidewalk metaphor of you know what happened? I'm just, I'm just going for a walk and I'm walking, and I'm still walking, and where I was, you know, 20 blocks ago might be different than where I am, but for me it's still a sidewalk. Has it always been that way or has there been an unpacking process of the community gatherings that you're leading now and the music that you're writing now as an artist and what you're putting out? Have there been shifts internally within you that maybe 20 blocks ago you'd never imagined? You are where you are now, but hey, now you're here.
Personal Growth and Authentic Expression
Speaker 3Yeah for sure. The scenery has definitely changed through the journey and and even the way that I walk has changed, um. So it's, it's not. It doesn't feel like the same block, it doesn't feel like this. Sometimes, it doesn't feel like the same universe, frankly, um, but it's um. But I can look back and see how important every step of it was. So so, yeah, there's, there's things, if I, I imagine if myself, 20 years ago, met myself now, I'd be terrified on some level, like, oh my, what, how, how did you get there? Um. But but I can look back and see how I needed to feel that way at that point, because that's what I had experienced up to that point and what I needed then to try to make myself safe and feel loved and whatever I was looking for at the time. What else could it have been? It was like every step needed to be exactly as it was.
Speaker 2I feel like that's a really like. To me, that's a fresh and intriguing perspective, because oftentimes, um, I don't know, at least from my vantage point in hearing, um, you know, there's this it you even alluded to it where people are kind of seeking for this pivotal moment or this intense trauma or pain that led to, why result? But in hearing your response, it's interesting to hear how and correct me if I'm wrong in saying this you're not just saying, hey, it's always been this way and I just faked it for a period of time. It genuinely was a journey and a path where where you were at, call it, 10 years ago was genuinely where you were at 10 years ago, and where you're at now is genuinely where you're at versus 10 years ago. You're like man, I would love to be here, but because I'm in X and Y space, I can't. So I'm going to, you know, entrap myself in this and then maybe one day I can break free.
Speaker 3That's. That's a refreshing perspective for me. Am I hearing what you're saying correctly in that? Yeah, I think that's one thing. It's hard to accept people's change sometimes and it's like, well, were you lying to me when I thought you were different? No, I was different. And so I mean, of course there are people that live in a lie and live in a way that they're trying to just make everybody think they're a certain way, and then the truth comes out and while I can say there are definitely times that I was afraid of speaking, I think probably almost the whole time, almost the whole time there's always been some.
Speaker 3Whatever the leading edge of the growth is, whatever the leading edge of the curiosity where am I going from here always feels a little scary to just like air publicly, like I don't know where I'm going to end up.
Speaker 3A past from some of that lag of like. When I was interviewed about Genesis, when they asked me the question about Genesis, there was something. There was an earlier time when I was really wrestling with it that I probably would have spoken more carefully or more like measured and like tried to honor both perspectives or something, but it had been so long since I even have been thinking about that, but I just kind of casually dismissed my old view, which made people that had that view feel slighted and offended, like well, you're just dismissing us out of hand, like so sometimes the lag in in the real time processing of like what am I wrestling with right now, what don't I know right now, versus like oh, I was doing that five years ago. I was thinking about that and I kind of came to this conclusion. Sometimes that lag has made me communicate in ways that people felt was dismissive or something, and I do feel sad about those times because I do want to honor everybody else's journey too.
Speaker 2So one final thing on that and along the honoring other people's journeys, as well as you genuinely being where you were in those times and now you genuinely being where you are now versus gosh 10, 12 years ago, I was writing songs that I didn't believe in, or saying things that I truly didn't believe, but I felt like I had to say that For worship leaders, but church members, whatever it may be, that listen to the songs, these songs right, I mean the songs were like, hey, this is it, knowing where you are now versus where you are then.
Speaker 2I've always wanted to ask this question. I don't even have a thought of what the answer would be, I'm just excited I get to ask. It Is how do you feel in your heart, or how does it feel in general, for folks to be singing those songs, genuinely believing and professing God, christ, saving all of that in those songs, and then where you are today, where maybe you feel differently about those things, and there's been an unpacking or, to use the buzzword, a deconstructing, if you will, of those beliefs that were, that were held like. What is your posture on that personally? As you know the songwriter and the artist yeah, well, first of all, the, the.
Speaker 3Thank you for the question, the, the. Um, I haven't recorded a song. I'm combing through my memory banks but other than maybe battle cry. Battle cry was a little on the edge of like this feels a little like faking it. Uh, for the sake of the the event was called battle cry.
Speaker 3That wasn't, that wasn't a really authentic expression. I was kind of like trying to lend myself to that. But aside, aside from that song, I can't think of any songs that I've recorded that weren't a very authentic heart expression at the time and for that reason I've always loved the music that I'm in. But for also that reason, there was usually a lag of a handful of years that you know, it was like the songs. Five years ago I was like I don't want to sing, sing that anymore. But then it got to a stage in the journey. Um, we're not where I'm at now is. I really do sincerely love all of all of it. So people being able to sing any of them, even battle cry, I have to feel about, I have to feel into battle cry a little bit, I'm not sure, but uh, we're putting that in the intro, by the way.
Speaker 3Yeah, the rest of them, yeah, if people can find and interestingly I could a lot of it's come full circle where I think I can sing all those words myself and I might mean I might have different implications for, like, some of what that might mean to me now than what it meant then or what it might mean to the average person who's singing it in church. Um, but I can sing it sincerely. Um, almost all of them. I'm not. There's a couple songs that I wouldn't sing, probably now, just cause it'd be harder to do the translation of how I see things now. But most of them fit pretty cleanly into how I, how I see things now. It's just, it's a, it's almost up an octave or something. It's like it includes and transcends what I thought I meant at the time. All right, I really cool.
Speaker 1I've got to know where you are at now. So you know you're in this journey and where are you at now as far as, like, who is Jesus to you? What is kind of your spiritual direction, kind of course? Like, where did you end up?
Speaker 3Yeah, kind of course, like where did you end up? Yeah, when I look through christianity's history I see like kind of it's this huge tree right, like there's all these branches that have always branched off from the orthodox and the catholic and then the protestants and then the evangelicals and everybody, um, but through the whole tree I can see a mystical strain that I personally place in Jesus' teachings directly. I think that goes through certain like there are saints throughts, there's elements of like the Quakers and different streams who have had sort of this view of God that wasn't so fundamentally other. And I can find it in the scriptures and you find it in, especially in the Gospel of John.
Speaker 3That mystical thread kind of stands out particularly brightly to me, particularly brightly to me, and essentially it's that Jesus recognized his shared divinity with the Father, and the Father being the ultimate, unnameable, infinite.
Speaker 3This, that is the ground of being, and that infinite ocean, if you will found itself particularly manifested as a wave, as Jesus, and the ocean recognized itself in that wave, and I think the work and message of Jesus, the mystical part of it anyway, was calling to that ocean. That is in all of us, that is the essence of being itself, and so what? I think I am this body, this mind, this thought, this feeling, this perception, this story. I see that now, as waves, they're just temporary little waves that are in the ocean, and that the ocean really is what is real, if you will, that God is kind of the only true reality and that all of this is just sort of an appearing wave within God, and that, as we remember that, that's what allows us to not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow takes care of itself. Or to just listen to the bird look at the birds they're taking care of, and it's what allows us to love our enemies as ourselves, because they are the same ocean. Underneath all the waves, it's the same ocean.
Speaker 1So God doesn't have a name. So you would say old Testament, yahweh, you know it's more than that kind of thing.
Speaker 3God can have any name. God has all the names. You can call the ocean whatever you will. Infinity, by nature, can't be boxed in, because if you can box in infinity and go, this is what infinity is. You're talking about something finite, so you can what you're. The box is included in infinity. You can't. It's so to say what is the infinite name. I mean, call it whatever you want, but it's not a. It's not an it that can fit inside your head, or a name, otherwise it's, by nature, an idol which is still part of the ocean, it's still part of god. It's just a part, it's not the totality have you ever seen the, the movie interstellar?
Speaker 1you know that end scene that's absolutely bonkers, where it's like you know, basically future humans made this thing, that like this realm that was physical for them now, so that they could actually like see it and understand it. That kind of feels very similar to me of what God kind of does for us in the sense of like he does not have a box, at least that you know I'm talking about. You know God of the Bible, like no box, infinite, completely, all powerful, all that stuff. But we'll never be able to understand all of God, right, like we're humans, we Like we're humans, we're creation, we're the created. So we will never be able to understand the depth, like everything, of God. There's no way, right. But the thing of like God doesn't have a specific name that we could know to be able to know him. I believe that we have a knowable God and the only reason I'm saying my belief is because you were like before we recorded. It was kind of funny. You were like you guys can try to convert me, give it the best you got.
Speaker 2That prize was thrown out there, yeah.
Speaker 1So usually I wouldn't be like, hey, this is what I, what I got going on, but you, you opened it up. So I'm a, I'm gonna open it up. But I'm very curious, because if we don't have like a knowable God, like a relational knowable God, what does that, what does that do for you? No-transcript.
Speaker 3Yeah, well, okay, thank you. Multiple questions in there. I think I'll try to maybe start with that last one. It wasn't that Jesus was a big wave. It's that literally the ocean knew itself in the small wave that we called Jesus. Jesus the body. What are we talking about when we're talking about Jesus like a mammal right, like with hair and skin and bone, like that's just temporary, who lived 33 years as that body, like that's a wisp of vapor, it's just a tiny little splash. But it wasn't just a splash. It was the ocean knowing itself in that splash, and so it wasn't a big wave. That was like I'm bigger than the rest of you. It was like the ocean knowing itself in any tiny drop.
Speaker 3So knowable is an interesting because it's not. If the duality, the two-ness, maintains itself, the metaphor breaks down quickly. Duality, the two-ness maintains itself, the metaphor breaks down quickly. Because if it's like I'm the ant and I'm walking on this huge globe and it's impersonal and it feels like, oh well, that feels kind of like what does that do for you? Just walking on a big globe, like you can't even know this globe, but that metaphor is infinitely falls short of the distance globe, but that metaphor is infinitely falls short of the distance between a finite person and the infinite God. It's not an ant compared to a planet. It's infinitely greater than that. So it's not like when I say anything that you can know is knowing God, so anything that can be known any name that you could offer it as like a localization of it, like, if you want to feel the ocean, you only can feel a wave. You can't touch the ocean without touching a wave. That's how you touch the ocean without touching a wave. That's how you touch the ocean and in the way God in its, in the we'll call it the infinite or his, however you want to say it it is accessed through, and that's what I love about Christianity, honestly, is this mystical strength? It's accessed in the tiniest place. It's accessed in a baby, in a manger. It's accessed bread and wine. It's accessed when you visit me in prison and in the hospitals and in the forgotten corners. It's accessed by leaving the 99 and going to the one sheep that was lost. It's accessed wherever you think it can't be accessed, it's found.
Speaker 3It's always incredibly specific and intimate and personal. It's not less than personal. It includes every bit of personal that you could find in it and it's greater than that. It's not just a drop, it's the entire ocean in the drop, it's the entire divinity in every knowing and every personal taste that can be found. So call it, yeah, call it Yahweh. It's great, it's beautiful, it's a name to call it, but when we separate ourselves from it and we go, I'm the ant and there's a big giant who it can feel on some level like that's being more respectful of God, like I'm not gonna just deep, depersonalize god into an ocean. It's like no, can you not see how you're infinitely shrinking god by thinking of, of infinity as just like a big guy that's infinitely shrinking? Yeah, I love the big guy.
Speaker 1It's just like a big dude in the sky. That's not infinity, yeah yeah, I'm.
Speaker 2I'm really intrigued by the, the, the phrase the ocean knowing itself. So I'm gonna I'm gonna throw something out here because I'm trying to wrap my mind, and maybe the whole point is that you can't wrap your mind around it, and that's the beauty of it. I'm trying to wrap my mind around what you mean by the ocean knowing itself. Who's the guy who does the? You made it weird podcast. He's a comedian, pete holmes. Pete holmes, okay, so pete holmes had andy hole of manchester orchestra manchester orchestra as a size, my favorite band of all time had him on the podcast.
Speaker 2And in this, in this thing, they're talking about songwritingwriting and Pete Holmes referenced a songwriter who in this story I'm only saying all this so that way I can prove that it's a legitimate thing that actually happened, rather than me making it up off the top of my head is he wrote this song about a divorce or a messy breakup, and then performed this song and then at the end of the show, a fan came up and was like hey, man, I really, really love that song about the titanic. And. And then the artist in this story he's like I had to learn that my best response to that person is thank you like that's. That's not what I meant by the song. I wrote this song from a voice up here but to the listener, you heard a song about the titanic, so thank you. Thank you for appreciating that song.
Speaker 2Is that, is that close in the realm of what you're talking about? The ocean knowing itself, where the ocean is the ocean. The song is a song about a breakup to the writer, but to the listener they're hearing a song about a ship going down. And is that close? Or is it a is a place? Because I want to. And again, maybe the beauty is that you can't wrap your mind around it. But the ocean knowing itself is a very intriguing statement for me. That the pete holmes excerpt just came to my mind it's.
Speaker 3It's even more fundamental than that, because it's who's the listener and who's the artist, gets blended Because it's not blended in a. It's not a whitewashing of distinction, it's not an elimination of difference, it's not. Sometimes that can be sort of like. I remember hearing that as a as a kid, like when I'd hear people like god is in, like I, I term like um pantheism, for instance, which is not a term that any mystic that I've ever heard would use to express their own beliefs. It's that's more of a derisive term from somebody outside of it who's going oh, you're just saying the rock is god and the tree is God and the ocean is God, and I remember hearing that I'm just kidding yeah but it was how I heard it was a devaluing of God where, like, god was just a bunch of rocks and stars and oceans and people and like what?
Speaker 3a? What a minimized view of God, um, but I see it precisely opposite. No, it's, it's not. Like, it's not that God is just rocks and stars and people, but that the no.
Speaker 3Go back to sorry, real quick to your, to your statement about, um, not being able to wrap your head around it, cause it it really can't be, but but it wraps itself around your head, or it it it is, it is your head trying to wrap itself around it, um, and it doesn't have a problem with that. It's so big and so loving, it's so infinitely powerful and, yes, it's the infinite yes of everything that it includes the experience of being separate from it inside of itself. And it's like no, I'm not it, I'm Michael, and I believe that it doesn't. It's not just everything, it's everything and nothing and transcendent of that, it's unspeakable, it literally is ultimate mystery. And that ultimate mystery when surrendered to from the perspective of a human mind, when that, when the human mind goes, not my will, not the, not the brain that's trying to wrap itself around infinity, but yours be done and it kind of like turns inside out and it's like, all of a sudden, all the thinking and all the trying to strive gets surrendered into the ocean, if you will, into itself.
Exploring Artistic and Spiritual Connection
Speaker 3And then it's seen that's the ocean knowing itself. It's like, oh, all that that I thought I was is just a tiny drop I can see. It's just a tiny passing drop. And if it's just from the place where you're identified as the drop, it can't be seen, it just literally like you can't. It sounds like utter blasphemy, it sounds like utter heresy and absurdity to be like I'm not, I'm just a drop, I'm talking about the big thing. It's like, no, the drop is the big thing and until it's, it really is unspeakable and it's better. I think that's what I love about Jesus' teachings, how I hear Jesus' teachings. He accessed it through stories.
Speaker 3He accessed it through parables. He accessed it through direct interactions with people, where they were healed and where their eyes were opened, spiritually and physically and whatever else it's like. Look, the kingdom of heaven that I'm talking about is within you, the ocean that I'm talking about. I am the vine, you are the branches. I and the Father are one. May you and I be one, as I and my Father are one. All that stuff. It's poetic because you can't say it. You can't say what he was trying to say, but he said it almost pretty well.
Speaker 2Yeah, it's I, I, um, I can hold a tune in a bucket, but I wouldn't hold, I wouldn't call myself an artist. Yet I work very closely with a number of artists and, um, you know, it's here in greenville, makoto, fuji mora um has, yeah, at a local church and and he's, and then they had a conference at first presbyterian here in greenville and and he was somebody that was very intriguing because, as somebody for me, who I don't, I don't necessarily think black and white, I think I think god is teaching me what living in the tension of the gray looks like, oddly enough, through my work with artists and just the unique perspective that those with the gift of artistry can bring. Makoto is a tough one because it's abstract and so it's, rather than looking at it and saying, okay, this is clearly a tree and the sun is setting and there's a tire swing hanging, and then you have your red 1940, you know F-150 and you know like it's up to the viewer, in a way, to interpret what the painting is, interpret what the painting is as well, as in hearing Fujimura talk a lot of times he's figuring out what the painting is as he's painting it Like it's. It's a very um use his words incorrectly, but from the reader's perspective it seems like a very Holy spirit led journey of I'm going to do this and let you guide me, rather than me saying in my head I have a picture of a tree and I'm going to paint that tree, and that was kind. Lead, which is kind of viewed as a toxin and a poison, if you will, and gauze, which is used as a means of healing and of restorative. And we're on this beautiful journey of talking about how he uses those two mediums together. And here's what this piece means and here's the interaction thereof.
Speaker 2And in the same way that I kind of geeked out over getting to ask you the question of what would you say to the Christian worship leader who's singing a song that you wrote 15 years ago that now maybe you're on a different spot of that sidewalk I got to geek out and ask him a question of does it drive you insane that if you didn't tell me that, if you didn't walk me through that presentation, I would go and view your artwork and really have no idea all of the delicacies and the time spent laboring over that piece of artwork that you now shared with me, that now I have a greater understanding of the depth because I'm now aligned with you in your heart, if you will of that piece. Does that bother you that if you didn't do that, that I could see your piece and not know that. And his answer and I want to hear your thoughts on this because I had a hard time believing him and maybe that says something more about me than it does about him he said no. He said no. That doesn't bother me at all because I want to invite the viewer to look at this piece and really dwell with these elements and then let the art mean to them what it means to them. And I'm okay with the artist's heart never really truly connecting. It's the beauty of the art in and of itself that allows that connection to happen.
Speaker 2And in hearing your conversation about the community gatherings and knowing the insane vulnerability and time and delicacy it takes to write music and sing songs and say the things that are written on your heart in a poetic form, what is your thought on that as an artist, as a writer, are you okay with that?
Speaker 2And two, even as we talk about this ocean and the drop and never knowing it for the infinite God, that is unnameable, yet all-nameable, that, if I'm hearing you correctly, you're speaking of that way. Are any of those things connecting in that? Because I'm just relaying to you. Here's where my mind is running as I'm hearing you speak and trying to me, but in hearing you say let's not degrade the infinite or let's not limit the infinite to well, if you think God is a rock, then God is a rock, and if you think God is the tree, god is the tree. You're saying sit with the peace and know that, whatever that means to you, it means more, because the artist felt this way about this component and the person who could come after me. It it's. It's a yes, and am I hearing you correctly in saying that?
Speaker 3I love you bringing the art piece into it again and maybe it's maybe that brings more nuance to what you were asking before.
Speaker 3Forgive me if I didn't answer your question no, all good, I'm just trying to learn um, well, first, I love, yeah, I love that he brings that and I love that he uses like the holy spirit language in that, because it's it's a very zen thing as well, like that's how zen art and and zen practices like, like archery and like tea ceremonies, and it's very much like can you get out of the way of, of what they would, you know, what they might call the dao or the um, which is, which is interesting that translates as the word um, the word, and that's actually in chinese bibles, like they have. The uh in the beginning was the dao and Tao was with God and the Tao was God. And so this and sorry for conflict Zen and Taoism are different. I don't want to conflate those, those, but um, the, this creative aspect of like when you're writing a song or making a painting, I think you can experience anybody who's had something kind of come through them. It doesn't have to even just be art, like you can feel when you're just in the flow in life. It can be in a conversation, it can be um, you just are actually tasting the food that you're eating and it's just happening. You're not like in the way of it. You can kind of know what that feeling of being in the way of your life is versus, like, the flow.
Speaker 3And when you're an artist, songwriter, whatever it is, and you can be in that place of surrender which is what I was talking about before when the brain sort of like turns inside out and is like not my will but your will be done, and it sort of like lays back into the wave, lays into the ocean and just goes. You're the ocean fully, that the wave actually can become extremely beautiful. Extremely beautiful that a mind that is surrendered to Christ can be the most exquisite vessel for creativity to come through, for spirit to create through, if you will. Because, the way I see it, it's only spirit who creates, it's only God who is the creator, and the ways that I stand in the way of that, as trying to be other than that, are blocks to my creativity. It's not like I got to do the creating and I can get a little juice from God. No, I can't do anything. What I think of as me can't create a single thing. What I think of as me can't create a single thing. So it's only to the degree that I can sort of step out of the way and become a vessel through which the ocean makes all the waves. The waves can't make anything, they can't do anything by themselves, they're just being created themselves.
Speaker 3So, um, this artistic that, that artistic humility, even of like I I, I love seeing what the the, the viewer or the listener can hear in it themselves is, is that's the kind of the only appropriate to me stance, if, if you've allowed, if you're allowing yourself to be a creative vessel, because you know it's not yours, you didn't create it, you're just you're. You were a vessel through which this happened, and it's God speaking, and and so how does God? Being heard is fascinating and a beautiful and the most thrilling part of being an artist to me is like how, how you get to watch it come through you and then you get to watch it do what it does in other people, and that's it's beautiful to witness and that's like the gift sitting in the seat of the vessel that you get to behold.
Speaker 2Yeah, that's, that's really fascinating. I'm going to ask one, one final question and I want to hear yeah, that's, that's really fascinating. I'm going to ask one, one final question and I want to hear what's on grant's mind and maybe this. Maybe this is a closed conversation and maybe it makes the podcast, maybe doesn't. I know you met with grant before. If you were speaking to um, if grant and I were like, hey, we're buddhists.
Exploring Mystical Threads in Religion
Speaker 2Like would you be using a different set of language right now? Because in hearing your language, you're using Bible language. I'm a vessel. You're almost using it in a way of total depravity language. There's nothing good that can come of me other than God working through me, and so I'm hearing those things. I'm like, yes, I can relate to that. Are you saying that because you know that we can relate to that, or is that truly like? Are there components where it's like, hey, this is, it's all in there? Like it's all in there because I find it, I relate to what you're saying All the while. I know that I'm trying to comprehend what you're saying, but I can't relate to some of the things you're saying. And are you, are you specifically crafting that or is it? Or is it coming from a place of of truly like this, is it?
Speaker 1He's a Calvinist Basically. Michael Gungor is a Calvinist. Yeah, it's funny.
Speaker 3Cause I can, um, it's kind of both in a way. It's not that I'm. I don't feel like I'm translating my naturally Buddhist language into Christian In a way, like Christian is actually my native tongue still, like that vessel comes out a little more naturally and easily than if I was going to speak Buddhist with you. But I feel like I can speak multiple languages, so I probably could say the same thing in atheist, in Buddhist, maybe in Hindu, maybe in Zen, probably not in Islam, I don't know about, in Judaism. There's like some languages that I don't speak.
Speaker 3But this is, I think there's a mystical thread through all the major religions, that in all the major religions you can find threads that are, in fact, the bulk of the religions, are not the mystical thread, they're the sort of the, the outer body of the religions, and on that, on that way, all the religions are vastly different from each other and even within incel, like, think of the difference between, yeah, an eastern orthodox church and a hillsong church. It's very different, yeah, um, but this mystical thread where you're talking about infinite mystery and when they go like, yes, we call god father, or we call god shiva, or we call that which is the dao, or we call as I'm an atheist, I call it the universe, or whatever people call the biggest thing that they have in their language. Um, I know how to like sub those words out. You'd be like what you would call the universe, or yeah, so so the the mystical thread.
Speaker 2The mystical thread is the mystical thread, and then christianity, buddhism, atheism, etc. Etc are all. Here are our interpretations of creating a parameter to understand the mystical thread which we all, which, yeah, okay okay, I get it. I get it. Okay that that it's clicking now because coexist baby yeah, I mean you would.
Speaker 2You would say that that Christy correct me if I'm wrong. Christianity, which is, which is not only the language I can speak, but the language that I am, is Christianity is saying that we are taking the mystical thread and saying here are the parameters around, because what we agree upon Christians, agree upon God, is unknowing, like who can know the?
Speaker 3mind of God. Yeah, unknowable.
Speaker 2Yeah, who can know the mind of God, who can comprehend his ways? Yet we have Christ, and Christ came and lived a life that every temptation that we feel he has felt. He lived a life that we know objectively we can't live because we're fallen. Yet he's called the son of suffering. And so there's this element of I can know and know because he lives and dwells within me through the Holy Spirit. I know Him and I know Him, yet His ways are unknowable. The knowing that, hey, I can know Him. That is a Christian parameter. I want to try to speak your language now in a way that I feel like I can't, but I want to learn. There's a Christian parameter around knowing God. That is a parameter that Christianity has put, in the same way that for another religion. That's a parameter they have put of knowing, at the end of the day, the same mystical thread. We're all trying to reach back to the mystical thread and these are the things that we're saying. This is what we're calling it.
Speaker 3Yeah, this is what we're calling it, this is what's appropriate, this is how you get there. It's almost like perhaps I don't know if this metaphor will work, but I love metaphors there's all these different trees. I'm looking out my window right now. I can see different kinds of trees, different kinds of plants. And there's all these different trees. I'm looking out my window right now. I can see different kinds of trees, different kinds of plants, and I wouldn't say they're the same, like they have similar characteristics Some of them, some of them have leaves, some of them have flowers, but they're very differently shaped.
Speaker 3They have very different purposes, if you will, in the, in the landscape, um, but they all are drinking the same sunlight and the same water, and some of them might even share root systems and like the deeper you go into, um sort of the ground, if you will, of the trees there is, they share their being in a way, even though there's still differences.
Speaker 3So, to me, when we're talking about what where you started versus even the end of some of your sentences, like okay, we're talking about where you started, versus even the end of some of your sentences Like, okay, we're talking about the mind of God, cannot be known. That's pretty deep in all the religions, that's pretty at the foundation, towards the trunk, that's in the ground. But then you go and you said but we're all fallen and we're all, and that to me, when I hear that I hear a flower, I hear that's a flower on a specific bush. And that to me, when I hear that I hear flower, I hear that's a flower on a specific bush. That's a doctrine that gets used for specific purposes, um, and that's not necessarily a shared doctrine with a lot of the other bushes, um, even within christianity, but that's a specific bush, and okay. So what I'm saying is like, yeah, when I'm talking about the mystical threat, I'm talking about as deep as you can possibly go into, basically the sunlight or the water. It's just the most fundamental.
Speaker 2That metaphor was fantastic.
Speaker 1Yeah, all right, it finally made sense in 52 minutes, got it.
Speaker 2Yeah, that's record time for me. Normally it's four hours, and then we say hey, join us next week for part two. So I mean this is 52 minutes 52 minutes.
Speaker 1I got it. We're all I understand now. At least I think I understand, which probably means I absolutely don't, but we'll find out later. So it sounds like to me and I pretty much can only speak Christian or lukewarm Christian. Those are my two native tongues, if you will.
Speaker 3I like that. Yeah, Backslidden.
Speaker 1Christian, yeah, christian. Or thought I was Christian and wasn't for my whole life and then finally had an encounter with Jesus, and that's way different than anything I've ever experienced ever.
Speaker 1Christian or Christian in quotes. Those are my two native tongues, if you will. But it sounds like you're describing the idea of the I am, if that makes sense, like when they ask like God of the Bible, of the old Testament, so that we can put it into language that makes sense to me. It sounds like you're talking a lot about like the I am. Like what are you I am? What a statement that is like that just to me, like almost made me excited because, like you were like you know, the god I'm talking about is so big and he like you, he would blow your mind. Like he made your mind. Like you can't even come close, like that sort of thing. Like I am fired up by that. That is heck. Yeah, you know what I Like. That God is the I am Like that is a God that's worth following with everything you got, whatever. That guy like that is not big man in the sky. That is infinite power and majesty there's a different ballgame.
Speaker 1So I am, whatever that is. I am on team, that for sure.
Speaker 2Yes, but Same oh no, I'm on team, that for sure. Yes, but same Michael's about you're about to come at heart Like yes, it's like ah, here we go.
Speaker 3You're also my guess. Okay, go ahead. No, give me what your guess. I'm curious, no you please, please all right, I don't know I thought I was like, I'll tell you after, I'll tell you after all right, love it.
Speaker 1Um, so, yes, 100 dude, I am, I am on that team, and if that's not the god of the bible and you can like prove that to me right now, sure, you know what I mean. But and this is a big but what do you do with the passages in these various religions that are like if you don't believe this, or if you know, let's not even go Christian, let's go Egyptian, or anything Like, if you don't believe this, you are totally screwed. What do you do with? Because it's not like we're all in a happy little garden. It's like some religions are like hey, if you don't follow this, there is a problem. What do you do with that kind of because that's not happy little garden territory, that's right. There's a God and he's ticked.
Speaker 3Well, I think you have to make a number of assumptions to believe any of those claims. First of all, you have to believe in a second I am. So you have to start with with okay, there's the I am that is infinite, all-powerful, and and I am, who somehow can, is outside of that infinity but also I don't have it in the doctrine of the trinity.
Speaker 1That makes no sense, but I believe it in everything.
Speaker 3Well, but even well, I believe in the doctrine of the trinity makes no sense, but I believe it in everything. Well, I believe in the doctrine of the Trinity, in my own way, or not in my own way, I would say I think it's a beautiful doctrine. If I describe what I think it points to, it might cause people to say I disagree. But the I am that I'm talking about is you and me. Like the second I am, like who's the second? The I am that stands away from separate from I am is something you have to believe in to go. If I don't believe in I am properly, where do I go? Who's the second I? That's the question that I think is more interesting.
Speaker 3I actually don't have any theological qualms with Christianity as far as saying God is infinite, omniscient, omnipresent, that God is fully found in the Trinity and fully in Christ. No problems with any of these things. Where I have a problem is who's talking? Who's the I am? That is another I am. Who's the other God apart from God? That can be separate from God? That's what I don't believe in. It's not that I don't believe in God, it's I don't believe that I, what I think I am, is actually a separate divine reality from the divine reality.
Speaker 1Gotcha, I get it. I think Once again. I think. So you got this like basically, if god like I believe in christianity, so that's the way I gotta talk. So god created me right? We agree, ish there yeah, but what? Is me, but exactly so me would be. There's no way possible to separate the creation from the creator, Like that's not separate, that is always separate.
Speaker 3To me that's a little bit like saying in the other metaphor you can't separate the wave from the ocean. You kind of can. You can go like, if we're talking about that body, that mind, those feelings, those emotions, those memories, that DNA, we can say like that's not the entirety of reality. But we're saying the identity piece, like what is identifying with something? What is that process? And what I see experientially, not just philosophically and abstractly, is when I identify with something, I can go like there's a difference between going oh, there's some anger happening here and I'm angry, screw you. When I identify with the anger and I grab onto it and it's me, I'm lost in it and it's controlling me when I'm. When I can go oh, there's a, there's an assumption here that Jesus was uniquely the son of God. Okay, that's one thing. Going, I am a Christian who believes there's.
Speaker 3There's an identity identification piece that can happen in these discussions that when it's invisible to us, it's you're in it so much it's like, uh, it's you're blind to it. And so identifying is like grasping and putting something up on the. It's like putting up glasses. You're wearing purple glasses now and everything is purple because you're identified. It's you, yeah, it's not just you're seeing the purple glasses. So even in saying something like the God of the Bible versus the Bible of God, it's a reversal of and I heard you say that, I don't know if both of you said it at some point in this podcast where it's like if we put the cart before the horse, it's kind of what it is to me.
Speaker 3It's like God is a thing that the Bible is talking about, which makes the Bible the ultimate reality, versus God being the ultimate reality in which the Bible exists.
Exploring Beliefs and Deconstructing Hell
Speaker 1We agree on that for sure in which the Bible exists. We agree on that for sure. It's just the only way to talk for me would be to put it I don't know a better way to say it other than like the Yahweh, like that would be a better way, because I do believe that God has a name that he shared with us, kind of thing. So that would be my way of saying Yahweh, the God of the Bible? I don't think. But yeah, keep going.
Speaker 3But can you feel the difference between the Bible of God and the God of the Bible?
Speaker 1I very much can and I do. It gets a little sticky in that regard of, like you know, the Bible of God or the God of the Bible, because if God wrote it, it's like saying you know the song of Michael Gungor, kind of thing. I believe that God inspired the Bible and so that is an extension of himself. I believe that it would be perfect in the sense of inerrant, in the sense of that it conveys absolute truth. Not that you know which this is something I might disagree with some people on but, like I do believe that it conveys absolute truth. I think that there's some dates and some things that like are in different places to symbolize different things, and this means that. But I think that everything about the Bible is 100% true in the sense of where I believe, like how I define truth, if that makes sense.
Speaker 3Yeah, the funny thing is, I would say the same but, I would say that about everything yeah, you
Speaker 1have to. Here's where we're goofed. So because I, I, I am gonna, um, because you have to have a line somewhere, right? So or maybe you don't, maybe because I've talked. I've talked to a man before, dude, that you cannot get to the bottom of his beliefs at all ever, which is fine. And if you, if you're one of those guys, that's totally, that's totally fine. But you're like I might be dude, you have no clue, um, so what do you? What do you put jesus's teachings about hell? Like, yeah, you've got to do something with that. That can't just be like you know, if you don't, you know, you're saved by the name jesus christ. Like, if you don't, you, you've got to do something with that.
Speaker 3Well, this is so, this is. There's kind of two parts of that that I would love to answer. One is I hear Jesus meaning a very different thing, but why it's become what it's become, I think is also interesting and kind of still as part of your last question, that I would love to still kind of answer a little more effectively if possible. So maybe there's I have to hold possibility there could be a being that is like this big guy being in the sky. Maybe he's got a beard in the sky, maybe he's not, maybe he's whatever, I don't know, I don't know and maybe he burns people for all of time in a lake of fire if they don't X, y, z, whatever it is, believe or behave right or whatever it is Possible In that scenario.
Speaker 3In my estimation, that's the worst possible being that could ever exist. That is Satan that has gained control. Hitler literally looks like a saint compared to that being, because Hitler's killing of 6 million Jews was at least fairly quick compared to eternity. And even if you know, I remember when I was deconstructing hell or questioning hell, like one of the questions that came to me, I remember, was like, okay, if I was in charge of dealing out justice and I had, I was in charge of Hitler and I was like, okay, this is like the worst guy ever. And I was like, yeah, lake of fire go. And I sat there and watched him burn.
Speaker 3How long would it be before it became abhorrent for me to keep letting that happen? Like, maybe it's, you know, he's in there, for if you're watching him scream for five minutes, that would be a lot. Five minutes of like full body, consciously. And you're still like, yeah, you shouldn. He's in there, for if you're watching him scream for five minutes, that would be a lot. Five minutes of like full body, conscious. And you're still like, yeah, you shouldn't have done it, you shouldn't have done it. 10 minutes an hour, 10 hours, 10 days, 10 years, 100 years, a million years, a billion, a zillion years, like, at what point are you like?
Speaker 3Okay, okay, like we've far surpassed what's fair, what's good, what's beautiful at all. There's nothing just about this whatsoever, and that's not even the beginning of eternity, so it's literally infinitely the worst possible monster that you could imagine. That is the opposite of love. That would do that to even one, even one being just to Hitler. If hell was just for Hitler and Satan, that being that made it and wants it is still literally the worst possible imaginable being so. Either that it could be true.
Speaker 3That seems unlikely from my experience of life. Because life feels beautiful to me, I experience love. I experience when Jesus talks about how the Father is. Look at the birds, look at the flowers, look at your children, look at them, play I go. That does everything. When I get to the heart of it feels, if I really let go to, it feels more like love than the most terrible being that could possibly exist.
Speaker 3So then you say, okay, well, if that's the case, what are some other possibilities of why this hell story could have made it into civilization? And when you think of people trying to, they find the power of the mystical thread, as we've called, and they try to control it. They try to put parameters around it and to say who's in, who's out, how you access it. Well, that's an amazing stick. If you're talking about the carrot and the stick to be like, if you don't fall in line, not only are you out of the community, you're out forever and you're going to be punished forever by God. That is a great tactic to control people with is a great tactic to control people with. It doesn't make any sense from a loving God, but it makes total sense from a controlling group of people. Why that would exist.
Speaker 3Now, that's not why I think Jesus said it.
Speaker 3So that's the second part of it. I think Jesus was saying it because I think it's the most accurate description of what it feels like to believe that you're separate from God when you see your life in any moment as God is somewhere else and I don't know if I'm good like. The feeling of being alienated from God is the essence of suffering and the essence of heaven is that I and the Father are one and that surrender that thy will be done. That is salvation. It is the surrendering of oneself entirely to God and that is heaven, and you couldn't put more ferocious language around either side of it and be accurate. It's like it literally feels like you're being thrown into the garbage dump outside of Jerusalem that's full of worms and fire and being burned alive. To feel separate from God. And his invitation is to remember that's the way I read his teaching. So hell, the ferociousness of hellfire, I think is very appropriate. It just has nothing to do with a separate God burning his children for all time in some place. That's absurd to me.
Speaker 2I want to take a page turn because one I love these conversations personally, but there's the theology of of everything, um, but I do want to ask you a question. That's about Michael. You know you, you mentioned, when I was deconstructing hell and I was walking this um, who did the constructing, like, like? Tell me that. Tell me that journey of like. Was this a childhood? Was this? Hey, this is how I was born and raised. It came out of it. Who did the constructing of all these things that were later deconstructed? Tell me that journey.
Speaker 3Yeah, I was raised. My dad was a pastor and I was raised in the church and I went to Christian school and I studied the Bible for years and read the Bible. I would do the one-year Bible and read the Bible every year and go on missions trips.
Speaker 2Chronological or just A to Z.
Speaker 3The one-year Bible. It kind of spreads it out so you have some Old Testament, some New Testament, some old proverb every day.
Speaker 3Help you stomach those, like you know, lamentations and Leviticus seasons you got to have some other. Those are the hard ones, but yeah, it was very thoroughly believed from me. Seasons you gotta have some other, those are the hard ones. You know, um, but yeah, I just I was, it was very thoroughly believed from me and I was, I was taught in an evangelical context of, um, yeah, if you don't believe in jesus, you will be, you'll go to hell forever, and I had some very effective teaching around that that made me terrified about it. And yeah, so it wasn't just one stream, though I read for a while. I was like a Christian apologist on early chat room days and stuff. I would get on and debate the evolutionists and tell them why the Bible was reliable and all the stuff.
Speaker 2Yeah, and how did that like that? And then you as an artist and a songwriter and a performer and all the things that come with the gift of artistry, like where do those worlds intersect and how was that like growing up, but also on the process of exploration.
Speaker 3Yeah, I mean I'm grateful that I, like my particular brand of evangelical, I had a charismatic element to it which I really loved and still love. There was a time that I didn't love it but still love. But there's a time that I didn't love it but, um, because I love the active listening to the spirit now that's present in that I think some, some denominations, entirely place all of god's voice in the past and which makes it just literally a dead religion. Um, but, but having sort of this openness to the mystical now of like, what is the spirit saying now and doing now? And those were my initial mystical experiences were in worship and in um, and it's still. That's why I still love worship now. I still write worship songs now, um, it is beautiful.
Speaker 3You know a lot of people that have deconstructed, if you will, to use that buzzword, kind of see a lot of that now as like ex-evangelicals and ex-Christian or whatever. And I don't see that's never resonated with me actually, because I don't to me. I actually believed I went the full distance of what I was of like, yeah, I believe this. And because I believe this, I hear Jesus saying you find me when you find me in prison and when you find I saw, I heard Jesus saying like you got to love your enemies. And then I'm in church and I'm going, we're saying we're raising our battle cry against the gay agenda and I'm like that doesn't sound like we're loving our enemies. Where's the rub here? What's going on?
Speaker 3And I kept leaning in like I know I'm going to trust what Jesus said rather than what that guy on the stage said. That is the journey. Believe it all the way, go all the way within itself. It will tear apart the systems, just like Jesus did. He was like tear the, tear the traditions down. Who cares? Tear them down. This is it's rubbish. This is these traditions that you guys have built up. If you're whitewashed tombs, these are not. I think he would say the exact same thing about Christianity. Now you've built up this whole set of systems and beliefs that have nothing to do with what I said and nothing to do with who I am. Let it fall down, let it tear to pieces.
Speaker 2And that happens if you follow it, if you believe it fully now and and I can play guitar and sing every now and then. So I am, I am curious about like the, the nitty-gritty, like what's your songwriting process and all that fun stuff. So tell me a little bit about like you know, you're releasing a song a day or I'm sorry, sorry song a week yeah um, song a day would be nuts song a day, song a week.
Speaker 2And for the record, and you know, I mean you're, you're still, you're still writing like, like, what is that? What's that process? Um, you know, are you using to, to use a reference from your book? Are you using c7 chords in your, in your music?
Exploring Creative Playfulness and Music Projects
Speaker 3I got some c7 chords, I'm sure, right on. Uh, yeah, I'm, I love. I mean, thankfully I have like a bunch of songs already that are pretty close to being able to upload that I won't have to from scratch every week, fill in some of the weeks. But I like this idea of it's almost like what you're talking about with Mako Just getting out of the way and seeing what comes through, let it flow. And I really am kind of almost like practicing playfulness and open handedness in all my creativity. And even I'm taking an improv class right now, like on Saturdays I have this little improv class.
Speaker 3I never have really had hobbies and so just to have like this, it's just it's way out of my normal comfort zone, but it's just to be like let's just, let's just play and let what comes through comes through and see what, and then just let it go. And so that's this little project that I'm doing, even musically, is like let's just open the hands and be like, okay, I'm going to give you what comes through in real time here for a while, through in real time here for a while, and I don't know if it'll be good, but I'm liking the process and the letting go-ness of it. I'm just like here's a vessel spirit that you can use. Let's see what happens. And it's playful and it's silly.
Speaker 2If I were to do that, maybe my wife and my mom would hear it. If you do that, lots of people hear it Like what's that?
Speaker 3like Well, I am putting it on a side project name. It's not under Gungor, because I didn't want to flood the whole Gungor algorithm with whatever comes out week to week. Who knows what that's going to be. So it's under Weiwu. Weiwu W-E-I-W-U.
Speaker 1Okay, that does sound silly. That sounds silly. You made that to sound silly. There's no way you did it Right.
Speaker 2There's like this, really really deep thing.
Speaker 3And the project is called Grey Goo, so it's Wey Woo, grey Goo.
Speaker 1Yeah, see, I knew it, I knew it. If he said he's in a season of playfulness, I don't think making fun of the band names is going to be a problem. I'm going to be honest no, yeah you're fine with that.
Speaker 1No, dude, I think that that's so, so cool to, as an artist, just to have enough security in yourself to be able to release a song a week and be like, hey, even if this isn't good, I had a great time making this. Yeah, and I might delete all of it. I might, at the end, be like, hey, even if this isn't good, I had a great time making this yeah, and I might delete all of it.
Speaker 3I might read at the end be like okay, that was it. I'm taking that away.
Speaker 1That's why we that's how I feel about the podcast. It's like, even if this isn't good, I had a wonderful time talking younger today. That was a great time, but, dude, that's awesome man. Um, so it's about time to wrap up. I like to give um our guests like a space at the end to one, just kind of like tell our listeners where they're at right now, and to tell our listeners like upcoming projects, kind of a little promotion, if you have anything you want to promote, kind of dealio.
Speaker 3So I want to get a little space for that well, way woo gray goo is available to be listened to. Uh, I'm also way, way, way, way yeah gray goo yeah, um, it comes from this metaphor from a sci-fi novel of like everything just becomes. These like self-replicating nanobots. You just can't. Everything just becomes, and it's kind of a reference to like.
Speaker 1Way woo gray goo, you know.
Speaker 3And well, yeah, so that check, I'm hoping honestly, like if any songs kind of stick out from that, I might develop them or like spend money and put them on gunger eventually, or you know, I don't know, um. So so people actually checking it out and listening to the ones that resonate could actually help me in the long run. Or, um, there's, that's the business part of her, like the actual like curious part about about it, like what could that stuff become? Um? And then I'm also I'm starting a project called the mystic hymnal which, uh, is kind of going back to like what are we seeing at church and in groups and, and, like I said, I I still love this worship, this like surrendering oneself, um to god, that that worship can do when it's to me in its highest form. And so, like what can I be?
Speaker 3I want to be a part of a project that's creating and curating and collaborating with that kind of music, because it does seem kind of rare in the world to Most artists aren't writing songs that people are supposed to sing together, like it's meant for an artist to sing, not necessarily a group of people to sing, um, and then it's even more rare to have like that really be focused sort of on that mystical thread of like opening yourself to the divine in the present moment. Um, so how could? Could I be a part of writing, curating, collecting a lot of these C words here, that music, and so I'm doing some things with that, like a retreat, songwriting retreat, and going to be releasing some music under Gungor under that as well, and starting a Wednesday Zoom meeting for people who are interested in writing that kind of stuff. You can just follow me on Instagram and check out my. I'll post what I'm doing there and I have a link tree there that you can kind of check out on my projects.
Speaker 2I love it. I'm going to ask one one final one, because I don't. Normally I'm the. I'm the third host that they call sometimes, so I don't know the normal way to end, so I'm going to inject myself.
Speaker 1Hey, I like it.
Speaker 2What are you reading?
Speaker 3What are you watching? What are you listening to other than CCM? I'm reading a lot about internal family systems right now, which I'm really intrigued about. It's like a kind of a therapeutic way of bringing harmony into the system and your body and mind, and I'm intrigued by it. I think it's really beautiful. Um, I'm listening to. Um, I love jacob collier a lot. I listen to a lot of his stuff these days he's released a new album.
Speaker 2He's crazy. The latest one with him and tory kelly is like how are you a?
Speaker 3human I, I don't know that I believe that he is. He's, yeah, he's kind of like I mean, if our, if our world has a living mozart of sorts, to me that's he's about as close as we have. Um, then wait, what was the other one watching? I haven't been watching much sometimes. I uh, let's see what have I watched lately. I still occasionally like if I, if I just want to like unwind at the end of a day and shut like have my brain kind of not like just have a few laughs, I still watch the office sometimes oh, yeah, yeah it's just a classic, like kind of a comfort food show to watch.
Speaker 2So I'm more in like comfort food watching than like I'm not in any great series right now or anything nbc occasionally, office is evergreen because they've created nbc has created office compilation videos now and I've I'm definitely in that algorithm vortex it's just always funny.
Speaker 3It's like, how do I laugh still?
Podcast Appreciation and Goodbye
Speaker 2every time it's great well, in the same way that you said hey, you know if, if myself, 20 years ago knew me now, they'd probably be terrified. If myself, uh, 10 years ago knew that I'd be talking to michael gungor on a podcast, I'd be like, hey, get out, there's no way that's happening. So this has been an absolute pleasure.
Speaker 1Dude, we had so much fun. Yeah, this is great. Appreciate your-. Yeah, it was fun talking to you guys. Thanks so much, man. Thanks for listening to the Across the Counter podcast. If you enjoyed the show, please rate us five stars wherever you got this podcast.
Speaker 3Thanks, hit us five stars wherever you got this podcast. Thanks, y'all, and fill me with thy sound, thy light, thy love, and with thy light that these Give thy life, that these thy gifts may shine through.