Across the Counter
This podcast is a passion project where we interview a diverse blend of musicians, authors, podcasters, pastors, and thinkers about semi religious topics.
Instead of listening to respond or debate, we listen to understand through finding common ground and hearing our guests’ stories.
So grab your beverage of choice and pull up a seat Across the Counter!
Learn more at www.atcpodcast.com
Across the Counter
Every Day a Miracle | Matthew Stephen Brown | Episode 46
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Join us as we sit Across the Counter from author and pastor Matthew Stephen Brown
In this ATC Episode:
• As we sit with Matt, he opens up about his spiritual evolution that took him from a living room gathering to spearheading a ministry that reaches thousands through the digital cosmos. His journey is not just about numbers; it's about real, raw transformation and the struggle to stay humble and patient in a world that's constantly racing.
• Matt doesn't shy away from the hurts within church walls, advocating for clarity and healing by addressing issues directly. His latest book, "Every Day a Miracle," gives us a glimpse into an awe-inspiring medical miracle that reaffirmed his faith in the divine, prompting us to ponder the miracles that occur beyond the pages of scripture.
• Tackling the intricacies of miracles and suffering, this conversation takes a turn towards the eternal questions that haunt humanity. How do we reconcile the temporary nature of miracles with the ultimate reality of death? As Pastor Matt shares his experiences from the frontlines—celebrating life's extensions while mourning inevitable losses—we're reminded of the preciousness of our days and the historical perspectives of early Christians on sacrifice.
• When it comes to controversy within ministry, humility and grace take center stage as we discuss the importance of respecting differing views and the delicate balance of calling out harmful actions while guiding a congregation towards the light. It's a poignant reminder of the weight that spiritual leaders carry, a testament to the teachings of James on the stricter judgment faced by those who teach, and an invitation to join us as we explore the profound yet everyday impact of faith.
Connect with Pastor Matt:
Instagram: @matthewstephenbrown
Buy his new book “Every Day a Miracle” Out Now! https://www.amazon.com/Every-Day-Miracle-Trusting-Inside/dp/0785240829?dplnkId=42f1eecc-f74a-426f-8245-f8e4ba83640a&nodl=1
Beliefs espoused by the guests of ATC are not necessarily the beliefs and convictions of ATC.
That said the intent of our podcast is to listen, remain curious and never fear failure in the discovery life giving truth. Many people we ardently disagree with have been our greatest teachers.
Perspectives on Jesus and Christianity
Speaker 1Pull up a chair across the counter, your one-stop shop for a variety of perspectives around Jesus and Christianity. I'm Grant Lockridge and I'm here with my co-host, jared Tafta, and we have across the counter Matthew Stephen Brown. He is the pastor of Sandals Church and I will kick it off to you, jared, to ask the first question.
Speaker 2Yeah, I'll just open up by saying thank you for being here, Matthew. Well, you said we could call you Pastor Matt, so thank you for being here, Pastor Matt. And I guess the first question off the top is how are you doing today? That's what's on my mind right now.
Speaker 3I'm okay, man, my back is out, so I was just coming. The reason I was a little late I was coming from the chiropractor.
Speaker 2Oh man, Does that help you?
Speaker 3Yeah, it does.
Speaker 2I've had varied success, yeah, so it always seems like something you need to do consistently, but when it's hurting it's immediate. Yeah, so sorry about that. Well, a lot of times we kind of kick off with just getting to know you as a person and I don't really know anything about you. So would you be willing to share, kind of where you're originally from and maybe where you're originally from in a spiritual sense as well?
Speaker 3Yeah, yeah. So. Born and raised in California, I'm 52 years old. Gave my life to Christ in my early 20s. I've been a pastor of Sandals Church for 28 years old. Gave my life to Christ in my early 20s, Been a pastor of Sandals Church for 28 years now, and so started a church in my living room with eight people and now we are 14 campuses. About 10,000 live on a weekend and about another 30,000 live on what do you call it on video? So many people from California now just watch church from home since the pandemic. So we've shifted. So pre-pandemic we were more people in the buildings, Now we're more people in their living rooms. So just like what we're doing right now.
Speaker 2Gotcha. What's your faith? Heritage from your family side.
Speaker 3I grew up Baptist, so a conservative Baptist. My dad was a Southern Baptist minister and I had a great experience. I don't have a lot of church hurt, had one bad experience. But you know, people are people and what I say all the time on my podcast is people say, well, the church hurt me. I say, well, what was their name? Tell me the name of the person. So a lot of times we throw the church under a bus because of two or three bad apples. And so, just to for your listeners, there's 360,000, uh, churches in the world. You know a 3.2 billion Christians. And so when you say I've been hurt by these people, it's like no, I mean, you know, the most terrible instance is such a micro percentage of Christians. And so that's not to minimize people's hurt, it's just let's, let's call it out for what it is, Use the name, Tell me who the people were, and so that's important.
Speaker 2Yeah, it would be like if somebody of Asian descent killed my brother and then I said I've been hurt by the entire Asian community. Yes, the Asian community would say like that's not representative of us, and so there's similarities there. I 100% agree. Last question, and then I'll let Grant kind of follow up. That's on my mind is a lot of times. You know, we've only got a little bit of time here and we can't dive into all the history of Sandals Church, all the history of Matthew Stephen Brown, and I believe that God is alive and speaking and has something to say today, and today we're sitting here with you, pastor Matt, and so what I want to know is what is God teaching you right now? What are you going through right now? What is the? You know the rhythm, the new rhythm that you're learning, or one that you learned before and then you're attending to again.
Speaker 3Yeah, well, I would say, right now, god's teaching me humility and patience. Those are the two things that I'm learning. I tend to be a go fast, go hard, go all in guy, and so oftentimes people around me are not moving at the same pace that I am, and you just got to realize that God's you know he's moving in everybody's life at the pace that I believe he's moving in everyone's life at the pace at which they can go and is their maximum. So, um, um, so that's important for me. So I think, um, just what does God continually teach me is that his plans are different than my plans. So, you know, I wish that he would tweet me and let me know what's going on, but oftentimes I feel like that's just not what happens.
Speaker 1Yeah, I want to know about this new book you had out. What's going on with that?
Speaker 3Yeah. So I got a new book out called Everyday Miracle, and so, growing up a Baptist kid, I would say that I believed all the miracles in the Bible. I never had any reason to doubt. I didn't grow up in like a super liberal, deconstructionist church, you know, if it said Jesus fed the 5,000, that's what I believe. But I had never experienced it for myself. I'd never seen God do a miracle.
Speaker 3And so, um, you know, I've seen God do a lot of things, but in 2012, I was on a medical mission trip and, um, the surgeon made a mistake and accidentally killed a kid. He put the wrong size airway tube in the kid before they put him under for anesthesia and so, when they pulled the airway tube out, his airway spasmed and closed. And I'm not a medical professional, but what I'm told is, when that happens, there's just nothing they can do. Like, if your airway is closed, your airway is closed, and so this kid didn't breathe for eight hours. Uh, one of the doctors a part of this trip was a Christian. He said I don't want to call him dead until Pastor Matt comes in praise over him. So I'm clueless.
Speaker 3I walk into this situation. It's just chaos. Um, doctors yelling, people screaming Um, it was in Vietnam. So people are interpreting back and forth.
Speaker 3And then I see this little 18 month old toddler on the surgical, surgical um table. He's obviously dead. You know, I don't know what a dead person you know, I mean I'm not a surgeon, but we all know when somebody's dead you look at him like oh wow. And so Dr Vianne Dunn says pray over him. And I'm overwhelmed. I mean I, no one has ever asked me to do anything like this before. I've never encountered this. And so I pray over this little guy and I just said, jesus, we did this, I need you to fix this, please heal him in Jesus name. And the kid woke up, like, like that, I mean in Jesus name, amen. And he was alive and well.
Speaker 3And um, you know I know a lot of your listeners are like how can that be? But the same thing. I thought how? I mean, you know, I believe in God, but I'd never seen anything like this. And the little boy was fine, no brain damage, totally, totally well. And I remember the surgeon was in the corner and he's not a Christian and he just was weeping and he said it's just like the stories in the Bible that my mom would tell me about. He said it's a miracle, and so that's really where the book comes from. And so the book is just a highlight reel of my encounters with miraculous things. And so what I would tell your listeners is I don't see a miracle every time I pray. I wouldn't even say I see a miracle the majority of the times I pray. I wouldn't even say I see a miracle the majority of the times I pray, but occasionally I just see crazy things happen in my life where there is no scientific explanation other than, okay, god just did something.
Speaker 1I'm curious about your headspace when you're praying. You know, you see this little boy, this little toddler, just dead. What is your headspace on prayer in that moment? Is it just like, you know, I don't believe this can happen, but I'm just going to like, do this? Or is it more on the lines of God, you can do this, You're going to do this.
Speaker 3You know, that's what I think I would say now, I would say I have more faith now. I would say, in the moment I just was overwhelmed with the chaos of the moment. Just, you know, what I say in the book is when you can't breathe, go to the doctors, Don't go to a church. You know what I'm saying. I mean I would still say that, Call 911. In the moment I didn't realize this, but I was.
Speaker 3I was encountering God as I walked into the surgical room and so in the book I talk about it like a weight, like an enormous weight. And for anybody who's been a diver, when you go down below about 80 feet, you start to feel pressure in all areas of your body pressure on your lungs when you breathe, pressure on your bones. The deeper you get diving, the weight just magnifies. Every so many feet. I think it doubles every 32 feet.
Speaker 3I can't remember how it dove in years, but just this weight, and what I believe it is now is it was the presence of God, because I've never felt anything like that before or since, and just a holy moment, and you know, touching the little guy, praying over him, and so I would say in that moment it wasn't a matter of faith or not, Grant, it was just like me talking to Jesus. I wasn't worried about the outcome, I was worried about being heard and I thought we were all going to go to jail because this was in communist Vietnam. They don't like Christians, they didn't want us there. No-transcript. But I mean God's going to do what he's going to do.
Speaker 2Say more about that. Like, because I have a few interpretations. Like as soon as I say amen, there's a result. Is that what you mean?
Speaker 3Well, I think in the instance of a dead person, like if you're battling cancer, we can pray and I cannot know, when I say amen, what the result is. But if you're dead and I say amen and you don't wake up which I have had before I had a guy at a men's retreat die in my arms, you know he said, pastor Matt, I don't feel good, and I was like you'll be fine. And you know he hit the ground and you know we said, pastor Matt, I don't feel good, and I was like you'll be fine. And you know he hit the ground and you know we did CPR on him for 40 minutes. In all honesty, I don't think I prayed over him to come back, I think we were doing CPR, I was in shock, and so you know he was my roommate at a men's retreat. So in this instance, you know, I wasn't asked to do any medical intervention, I was only asked to do a spiritual intervention and so so I don't know if that answered your question or not, but yeah, yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 2You just said. You said you know, being afraid to say amen and that's exactly what I heard was like, when I say amen, there's like either we're going to jail this kid comes back to life, something else happens that's unknown, like that's how I heard you say that and that's significant. Have you met other people with experiences similar to yours?
Reflections on Miracles and Suffering
Speaker 3Yeah, you know, almost casually, flippantly, my charismatic friends. Oh yeah, I remember the first time, you know, I saw somebody come back from the dead and I don't always know what to do with that. You know, I mean because here's what I say in the book everybody dies. Even Lazarus in the Bible had to die again. So what miracles are as extensions? I think the best example of that is in the book of Isaiah, when Isaiah tells Hezekiah hey, you're dead, god's going to take you home. Hezekiah repents and prays and the Lord says I'm going to extend your life for 15 years.
Speaker 3I think that that's what we need to consider. All miracles are merely an extension because everybody dies. That's the consequence of sin. It is dying is as natural as being born. It's just, it's just a part of our process on earth.
Speaker 3And so you know, I mean, you know people come up to me hey, my grandmother's, you know battling heart disease. Well, how old's your grandma? Well, she's 98. Would you pray? And I'm up to me hey, my grandmother's, you know battling heart disease. Well, how old's your grandma? Well, she's 98. Would you pray? And I'm like okay, well, so the Lord, the Lord, does this miracle then. So do we just keep, you know, do we just keep asking God to extend her life till what? 110? You know what? What is that?
Speaker 3And so I just think, in our world we're so shielded from death nobody knows how to deal with it anymore. And you know, to me, if you live 90 something years, that's a good life. And and I'm going to, rather than asking for God for more time, you know, I, I think about the kids in my church I've buried. I think about Tiffany, four years old, fell out of the car, um, four years old, hit her head, you know, um, and that's not, that's not a lot of life.
Speaker 3So I have a hard time asking for God to extend 94 years when Tiffany didn't get five, you know. So, um, but that's just me, you know, I think, as a pastor, especially of such a large church, I've seen so many crazy deaths. Um, you know, I've seen crazy miracles. A guy in our church got shot in the head, brain matter came out the side of his head and he was fine and alive and, you know, wasted his life, got right back into gangs and was killed a month later. You know, like, what I tell people is if you get a miracle, don't waste it.
Speaker 1That guy wasted his miracle, so yeah, so as a as a pastor, and you write a book about miracles right, I'm assuming you're currently pastoring, correct? Yeah, as a pastor, you write a book about miracles. You tell people, hey, this stuff can happen. Yeah, you had a lot of experience saying we're not pentecostals, kind of thing. Yeah, but what? What do you tell your congregation when you're like I'm sure you've gotten an equal and opposite response of hey, this miracle didn't happen for my son, or this miracle didn't happen for my daughter, can you make this happen, kind of thing? And what was your response to that?
Speaker 3I can't make anything happen. There's no magic in these hands. You know, in that moment, for whatever reason, god in His sovereignty decided to act and he doesn't have to ask me. You know he used me and I'm grateful for that, but you know, I don't know man grateful for that, but you know, I, I don't know man. Like I said, death is a part of life. I think that, uh, you know, the early, the early church, the first couple hundred years, we assume death, we assume suffering, and now we're shocked by it and surprised by it. I know I am and, um, you know I think we invent, you know, uh, we invent levels of suffering that the early church would have been completely confused about. Wait a minute, you're stressed about things that didn't actually happen, you know. I mean, you know which is what anxiety is right. Anxiety is the fear of, of, of the future going negative. It hadn't even happened.
Speaker 2And so levels of suffering that the early church would not have even been, that they would have been confused about.
Speaker 3Yeah, I mean, can you imagine explaining? You're stressing about something that didn't happen. I mean you know so. I mean they just, they just lived in a world of death. You know where the average age of a Roman citizen was 30, you know so most people, half of all pregnancies, ended in death. You know, of either the child or the mother. I mean it just was a hard, hard time, yeah, and so.
Speaker 2Yeah, I wrote I actually edited that statement that we invent levels of suffering that the persecuted church would not understand, because I've been around people that have genuinely been persecuted as well. I'm thinking about actual persecution, legitimate suffering for the faith in the Christians in the Roman Empire that stayed during the Black Plague and sacrificed themselves. Don't get me wrong. I don't want to belittle anybody's. We have to step so lightly like anxiety. When you stress about something, it still does something to you physiologically.
Speaker 3It doesn't mean I'm not saying it's not real. I'm just saying, and I and again I don't mean this for anybody who's battling a clinically diagnosed disease I mean just your general run of the mill. You know I'm worried about you know, does this person like me, not like me? You know, you know, I mean just this, I mean this silly stuff. I don't at all mean the crippling form of anxiety that you know keeps people in bed. I believe those are the kind of people Jesus would have healed. You know, a rise and walk. I'm talking about, just like I said, the run of the mill, stupid stuff that we all worry about, overwhelmed with. And you know, really, rather than a prayer for healing, what we should be giving is a prayer of thanks because our life is so incredible.
Speaker 2Right, right, okay, so this shifts, and thank you for clarifying, because I didn't hear you saying that, but I know that many could say. Many could say well, does that mean my anxiety is taken lightly?
Speaker 3I battle anxiety, it's just different yeah, absolutely, and we've Personally.
Speaker 2Once you leave the States for one occasion and go be near someone that is living in third world poverty, it is legitimately like you've breathed fresh air for the first time You're just like oh actually my life is pretty good and I don't know how to explain that, um, and it touches you.
Speaker 2So this shifts gears a little bit, but it's. It's still back to your original kind of topic. Like I've experienced, um, I really like the way you put like feeling the intensity and the chaos of the situation and then I wrote your prayer down because it's the best like clarification of a prayer. I've prayed in a few times. Like you know, jesus, we did this and we need you to fix it and like that's the kind of that's like that's the prayer in the trenches or like in the middle of like I don't, like I'm not really thinking about theology or doctrine Like there's the pressure and the weight of just death and I just need you right now, and I've seen miracles happen where what you're talking about is true, that there's the pressure of death and then there's almost a weeping and a shedding of the weight of that mattering more than God, and then the weight of his, his glory. You know Lewis called like the weight of glory, like it just I remember being pressed into the floor, yeah, and and it's like I don't know if that was two minutes, two hours, like I have no idea. Um, I know it was all the tears I had or whatever.
Speaker 2But after experiences like that, you can talk about people who chase highs or people who long for the days that they were locked in a prison cell worshiping God, because that was more palpable than the moments when the monotony, than the moments when the monotony, but more than that. I've struggled sometimes with a bit of what Grant said, which is like how do I continue to pray, or how do you continue to pray bold prayers, when so often the answer is it is unknown. You know, this child comes back to life, this child doesn't this, you know. 85-year-old is healed and then this five-year-old passes Like I believe in the sovereignty of God. I know God is sovereign. I know His ways are higher than my ways. I've struggled personally with where, like where is my, how is my fire being stirred up to pray fervently when it's just like, if it's not a situation where the pressure is applied, if that makes sense.
Speaker 1Yeah.
Speaker 2So have you felt that? Do you deal with that? Am I making any sense at all?
Speaker 3Yeah, so in the book I talk about, you know, faith is not in what God will do, faith is in what God can do. And I look at Mark, chapter nine, where and I love Mark nine because remember that Jesus takes Peter, james and John up to the mountain to Mount Transfiguration and leaves the other nine and a father brings his son to the other nine to be healed. And you know, I think a lot of us as Christians sometimes feel like JV, and that's why I love that story, cause it's the JV Christians that get. They get the hard case, you know we don't.
Speaker 3We don't have the aid team, you know and um, that's awesome.
Speaker 3And so it turns into this. And the reason I love that is we're all, we're all JV. I mean, none of us are the 12 apostles man. We're not even. We're not even as good as the losers he left behind. And so you know, they come back right.
Speaker 3And there's this huge argument between Pharisees and the disciples and everybody's opinion, and this is really where I think the conversation on healing is right now. You know, john MacArthur, there's no miracles. It doesn't exist. My Pentecostal friends, well, you just didn't get it because you don't have enough faith. And that's not all, my Pentecostal friends, and that's not everybody. That's sovereign, I'm just stating. And so it turns into this argument. And what I say in the book is, instead of arguing, why don't we just turn to Jesus and say Jesus, because here's the thing.
Speaker 3Jesus interrupts the argument. What are you guys fighting about? Everybody's quiet. And then the father speaks up and he says you know, basically, here's my church. I came to church, I asked for prayer, my kids, you know, still suffering why? And? And then he says something very, very important. He says heal him if you can.
Speaker 3And Jesus's offense is in that statement. If that's that's what offends God, so our faith is not in what God will do, our faith is in what God can do. And so I think in that moment here's what I did right, I believed in what God could do. And this is where I think Christians just get all mixed up is we're taught to believe in the miracle, and that's wrong. I believe we're taught to believe in the miracle one, and so so Jesus has, bring me the boy. He begins to minister, and things get worse, and so then again, a lot of Christians quit. You know, don't give up. You know, continue to press in, and and then he's, then he's completely healed. And so the book is I don't know what God will do, I know what he can do.
Speaker 3And here's the other thing is, there's no such thing as an unanswered prayer. Every prayer is answered with yes, no or wait, and that's what I unpack in the book. You know, we're not going to get a yes to everything that that we, that we ask. I mean, I wrote a book on healing. My back is out right now. Wouldn't that be great if God miraculously touched it and healed it? Yeah, but I learned so much more through suffering and pain than I do through miracles, and so, um, you know cause? I've seen people receive a miracle and they're not. They're no more Christian today than they were before I prayed for him. So, um, what? What transforms us is pain and suffering, just like it transformed Jesus, and so I think that we need to understand that. But uh, that's a great question.
Speaker 2So that was huge, that last statement.
Speaker 1Have you read the MacArthur study Bible though?
Speaker 3Yes, actually, I have it. I have it. Yeah, there's a lot of things about John MacArthur that I love and you know, I think you know him preaching into the charismatic chaos. That's a good thing. You know there is a chaos, that's there.
Speaker 3And a lot of people that have come up to me are charismatics who have such deep wounds because they were told, you know you didn't have faith, or they were prophesied over falsely. I mean, I can't tell you how many people in their church they said your dad will heal, will be healed, God told me, and then their dad's dead. And you know, there's no repercussions for that. In that, you know, and here's what I tell people, I never say, even if I have a strong sense that God's going to do a healing, here's what I do. I say I really feel like and am sensing God's going to do a miracle, but I never put it on God because I'm not God. So you know, yeah, no, no, no, let me finish this. Yeah, thank you. Sorry, my house clean, I'm in the garage and she wants to come in the garage, so sorry.
Speaker 2Oh, that's all good.
Speaker 1I thought for sure that MacArthur's study Bible was going to get a laugh.
Speaker 2for the record, he was like no, I do have it.
Speaker 1He was like I've got it and dadgummit, he's done some good things.
Navigating Controversy in Ministry
Speaker 3I mean Grant. Part of my thing is I don't like to blast anyone, even if I disagree heavily with them. I think that's what the enemy uses. I have a lot of convictions. You know, I'm here in Southern California. There's a lot of guys that you know that are very famous more famous than me that I disagree with and I'm just not going to blast them. And let me say this about John MacArthur than me that I disagree with and I'm just not going to blast him. And so, and let me say this about John MacArthur Um, I mean he probably, if he would, if you put a mic in front of his face and said, tell me about Sandals Church and Matt Brown, he'd probably go off on me for an hour on how I'm heretical and what's wrong with me. But that's John. Let me tell you what I would say, even though I disagree about a lot of things.
Speaker 3I think when Jesus turned water into wine, I think it was real wine, I don't think it was grape juice. I went to hear John preach when I was probably 25 and it was on the headship of Christ. And I'm telling you, to the day I die, it'll be taught the top one of the top five sermons I've ever heard it. It was so powerful and powerful and beautiful and amazing, and the dude's anointed, but God uses, like me, broken vessels to heal the world. And so there are just some things. You know, the danger of a movement like John is it's really based on. I got it all figured out and I just think that automatically leads the most brilliant person into some, some deeply troubled waters.
Speaker 3You know, one of the things that people say about me is I can't believe. You know, you seem so different, and I think I'm a guy that understands. I don't have all the answers, you know. I know who does, but I don't have them. I don't have all the answers, you know, I know who does, but I don't have them. And so that's my prayer, right, 2 Peter 5, 6,. Humble thyself in the sight of the Lord so that in due time, he may exalt you, casting all your anxieties upon him, for he cares for you. That's a life verse for me, and the humbling is my part, the exalting is God's part, and so you just got to be careful. So, but I do have the macarthur study bible. I mean, I don't read it, but I have it there it is, there it is I have.
Speaker 2I have a copy too, and my mom.
Speaker 1My mom just straight up gave it to me and it's the biggest, like looks like a textbook. Yeah, it's a, it's a big boy. Yeah, but no, I love, because it's not great to trash talk no, anybody. But this is where I get in trouble, because I am like very quick to not trash talk, like that is not my tendency. My tendency is to just let things go like apathetic, like, yeah, so in a sense we can leave john mcarthur out of it, but just in a sense of somebody's doing something that's incredibly harmful in the faith we we as christians have to call that out. And I was talking this is actually the memes for Jesus guy. Yeah, but when do you? When do you flip the tables? When are you like, hey, there is a person out there doing real harm and Are we supposed to, as Christians, speak out against that? Or are we supposed to just let our communities and our life reflect something better? If that makes sense, yeah, and so here's the thing.
Speaker 3Grant God has entrusted me with 14 campuses and about 100,000 people a week that listen to me preach. Those are the people that I'm responsible for, and let me tell you, they are a full-time job.
Speaker 1And people. That sounds, that sounds easy, man.
Speaker 2I have four sons and I'm about to die.
Speaker 3I'm constantly working um to to lead, protect and guide the flock that God has entrusted me with. Um, you know, I think that most people that speak out against stuff are more concerned with their own platform growing than they are with protecting the church. You know capital C church, um. You know God. God knows how to deal with you know Pharisees, he knows how to deal with the Sadducees, he knows how to deal with the hypocrites, and he's been, he's been dealing with them long before I came and he'll be dealing with them long after. And so I just got to be real, real careful.
Speaker 3I think when I was younger, you know, I was more cavalier in that, given my opinion everywhere. And and I can just tell you guys, even some of the guys that you would agree with and love, you sit in a room with them and they're deeply broken people. They just may not be stupid enough to say stuff on social media or preach it in a sermon, but I mean like dysfunction, brokenness, just stuff with just where you're like man. That's just not, that's not integrity. I mean just real, real brokenness.
Speaker 3And so, um, you know, I think a lot of guys that go into ministry do so because they're hoping it'll heal them. And all it does to me is it exposes you and um, so you know, that's just me. I mean, I've just seen the Lord. The Lord, the Lord, will deal, and he does, and, and, and. One day, even if it's not in this life, I believe you know, one day I'm going to stand before God, and what James says, not many should teach, for they shall receive a stricter judgment. And I, man, I think about that every day. So, gosh.
Speaker 3Yeah, as as you should, as anybody like that's just such a hard, hard passage that makes me and I'm in no it's. When the gay marriage thing was going on in California I dipped my finger into that and thought I was being funny. I wasn't what the media did with what I said. It was so terrible, so awful. I still get confronted on that. You know. You said, and it's like man, I didn't say anywhere near that, but what I did say was foolish and I learned my lesson, and so, so, let's, let's set the record straight.
Speaker 1So what is the quote and what did you mean by it?
Speaker 3Oh, yeah, yeah, so the I think what and I can't remember what gay magazine posted. You know it was like pastor says he'll punch anyone who does gay wedding. And I was trying to be a joke and what I said was look man, I wouldn't personally go to a gay wedding. That's just me. That's my conviction. But my issue is not really with the gay couple. My issue is with the pastor in the name of Jesus performing the ceremony. And then I made a joke Wouldn't you hate it if you went to a wedding and you saw me go? Old Testament on some pastor? That's what I said. Ha ha, ha, laugh, laugh, laugh.
Speaker 3Well, that was probably the dumbest thing I could have said. You know, because Old Testament, right, that means eye for an eye, tooth for tooth. I mean it conjures up a a lot of hurtful things that have happened to the gay community and there have been in the name of God and Jesus and everything else. They've been beaten and murdered and killed and their buildings have been set on fire and what I, what I said, was just stupid. Um, you know, um, I still believe marriage is between one man and one woman and that's my conviction, based upon what I understand scripture to mean. But I just you know again, in the name of being funny and being quick-witted, I ended up, you know, being the internet idiot for a day. So, and that's what I tell guys never be the dumbest person on any given day and you'll do all right.
Speaker 2That's a fantastic quote. On that day I was in most rooms.
Speaker 1I'm in bro. That's not good.
Speaker 3No, but you know I have gay friends, you know and and and trying to explain to them. You know what I meant and what I've learned is stop explaining, just apologize. And that's that's just where I go now. I just say, look, man, what I said was wrong and I'm sorry, and I just move on. And then here's the thing in our culture, Nobody cares if you're sorry, they did they, they want a pound of flesh, they want to destroy you. Nobody cares that. You know you made a mistake, you're sorry. I mean it. Just our, our culture, as we've moved post-Christian, there is no category for grace anymore. It just doesn't exist. So you know so.
Speaker 2That's a super valid point. The reason and this is now opinion, like the book of Jared, so nobody write it down but the reason that there is no place for anybody to care if you're apologetic about a thing that you've done is because if I were to believe that you were truly sorry and I were to give grace to you, it has to move through me. But if it's going to move through me. I have to look at all the things.
Speaker 2I'm not sorry for all the things I'm not standing in account for. And like not jokingly, like I'll be damned, like I can't, there's nowhere for me to look other than to kill you, like let's get that pound of flesh out of you, because I can't. Apart from Christ, grace is in Christ. A post-Christ world or post-Christian reality, there isn't a place to go. If I'm not going to let it move through me, then I need it to come out of you.
Speaker 3I like the book of Jared. I got to get that. Find that book in my Bible.
Speaker 1So we have about four minutes left on this. This is going to be a little bit sillier, but so my middle name is Steven as well. So how do you justify going by Matthew Steven Brown? That sounds dope. Like my name is Grant Lockridge, but like Grant Steven Lockridge sounds Presidential, sounds great. So at what point did you turn from Matthew Brown to Matthew Steven Brown?
Speaker 3Yeah, because you guys aren't old enough to remember, but when I was a kid we'd sing a song John Jacob Jingleheimer Smith that name is my name.
Speaker 2Do you remember that?
Speaker 3Yeah, so basically my parents named me John Jacob Jingleheimer Smith, like Matt Brown is the most vanilla name there is and there's actually a Matt Brown like. If you're listeners, go look for my book. You know Matt Brown will pop up and there's also a Matt Brown MMA fighter. Every time he loses, people make fun of me. So the reason I went with Matthew Stephen Brown is just, I mean, that is my name, but it's just, it's to try to distinguish myself from the other Matt Brown, who's a good guy. I've spoken to him once but you know. So it's just to try to.
Speaker 3But part of the problem is nobody knows me as Matthew Stephen Brown. Everybody knows me as Matt Brown. So when they're looking for my book, I think sometimes they buy the other guy's book, you know, on accident. So but yeah, no, I'm going to tell my mom that you like that. I just saw my mom this morning that you like my name, so they gave me that name. So Steven is my dad's name. And then, not to get real sappy before we go, but my name is Matthew, it means gift from God and my mom was thinking about aborting me in 1971.
Speaker 2So we have all the time that your schedule has. So you go as far as you want to go?
Speaker 3yeah, yeah. So that's why she gave me that name, because she realized I was a gift and not a burden, and I'm grateful that she did not abort me.
Speaker 2So that's beautiful that wasn't.
Speaker 1That didn't turn out silly, that turned out beautiful absolutely.
Speaker 2I think steven uh, my brother's name is steven actually as well. This is weird. I hope he doesn't listen to this. He's gonna get a big head, but it means like crown, like crown of god, or something like that as well.
Speaker 1Yeah, I didn't know that.
Speaker 2Thank you, jerry if dan crown yeah that's why you got the.
Speaker 3You give it the middle name yeah, yeah like grant probably means who knows what yeah, like that's just, my last name is color, so that's kind of lame, you know and it's.
Speaker 2It is the worst color. I'm just kidding.
Speaker 1My wife says that I would decorate everything in brown if we weren't together, because just leather and wood and yeah, yeah, but in our last, in our last little bit, we like to give you, uh, some space to just say what you're doing in the future and, you know, just plug whatever you'd like to plug, just so that we get you out there.
Speaker 3Yeah, yeah, just hopefully you guys go buy my book Every Day a Miracle, trusting the God who Heals Inside and Out, and just be praying for me. I'm trying to do a speaking tour to get the word out about the fact that Jesus still heals, and I know that because I've seen it. So, and the other thing is support Christian stuff. You know everybody complains about the quality of television. You know music and then Christians don't want to buy it. I mean, like you should see all the oh, another guy trying to make money. It's like good God man, we live in a capitalistic system. The whole thing is making money. So HarperCollins is not going to publish Christian books if Christians don't buy it. So buy the book. Leave a nice review on Amazon, that'd be great.
Speaker 1Thanks for listening to the Across the Counter podcast. If you enjoyed the show, please rate us five stars, wherever you got this podcast. Thanks, y'all.