Across the Counter
This podcast is a passion project where we interview a diverse blend of musicians, authors, podcasters, pastors, and thinkers about semi religious topics.
Instead of listening to respond or debate, we listen to understand through finding common ground and hearing our guests’ stories.
So grab your beverage of choice and pull up a seat Across the Counter!
Learn more at www.atcpodcast.com
Across the Counter
Manna | Chris Renzema | Episode 55
Use Left/Right to seek, Home/End to jump to start or end. Hold shift to jump forward or backward.
Join us as we sit Across the Counter from Christian artist Chris Renzema.
In this ATC Episode:
• Authenticity takes center stage as we navigate the complex landscape of the Christian music industry. Reflecting on personal experiences, we discuss the challenges of staying true to one’s unique voice amid a facade that often stifles genuine expression.
• Through heartfelt anecdotes, we explore the distinction between creating art for mass consumption and art that resonates deeply with individuals. Live shows, we discover, are a testament to the power of authenticity, proving that genuine expression can touch hearts even when it defies mainstream norms.
• As we delve deeper, the conversation shifts to the broader challenges of artistic expression and commercial success. We address the pressures of balancing personal fulfillment with the demand for commercial viability, emphasizing the importance of redefining success to foster more authentic creations. From stand-up comedy to music production, and even contemplating book writing, we share our personal definitions of success—rooted in being proud of our work and truthful in our artistic journeys.
Tune in for a rich episode filled with insights, inspiration, and a sincere exploration of what it means to be an artist in today's world.
Connect with Chris:
Instagram: @chrisrenzema
Website: https://chrisrenzema.os.fan/?fbclid=PAZXh0bgNhZW0CMTEAAabGzbzj9H9dCfcFJ0mEiFwe3HRENFe-cq5JNq0l_1TQgYKhSae2w0zU1AU_aem_hySjfe0iN0edOSs5uZRgUg
Artistic Exploration and Authenticity
Speaker 1Perfect.
Speaker 2Cool, all right, it's working.
Speaker 1I will warn you guys. I have my phone very precariously set on top of a candle, so if there's a loud bang, then, dude, it's not going to fall. Yeah, it'll be fine.
Speaker 3Bro, it's definitely going to fall. It's going to fall, it's going to fall. I love when it's on top of a candle, not even like yeah.
Speaker 2You know when it's on top of a candle, not even like, yeah, you know a full stack, there's a professional recording studio that you have set up right now. That's all I'm saying.
Speaker 1I mean, I'm literally in my studio. I'm just like I don't know how to use any of the mics for podcasting.
Speaker 2He's a pro. Yeah, they're called AirPod pros. Well, I'll say them a little. Pull up a chair across the counter, your one-stop shop for a variety of perspectives around Jesus and Christianity. I'm Grant Lockridge and I'm here with Jared Tafta and Chris Renzema. And Chris, we were talking a little bit before about you getting involved in a screenplay and I'm not entirely sure what that is, so hit me up on what that is.
Speaker 1First of all, yeah, well, I'm not exactly the expert for sure, because I am just beginning to get into it, but yeah, I guess it's basically sounds like a really dumb answer, but it a play.
Speaker 2Play for screen, you know, um yeah, there's no joke in the script yeah, that's what was going through my head, but I was like you can't say that out loud some things, some things are, you know, as simple as they sound it's harder to write it than to describe it, but uh, yeah, that's been kind of my summer project, um, since getting off the road, being a novice at something, so that's awesome, that's really cool
Speaker 3I I the reason that we're talking about this is because, also, you mentioned that and I've just randomly been thinking about that whole world of there's people that write screenplay for many, many years even as, like young men and like the actual movie only has maybe like a paragraph of what originally started. It's like their entire screenplay and I just found that fascinating. But what I love about our interviews, especially with artists, is often like we only get a taste of like what the artist has already done, and maybe songs you have to repeat over and over and over. Um, and so I wonder sometimes about you getting tired of like the same thing. If that makes sense. So it's awesome to hear you be like, hey, I want to do something different and like maybe write a screenplay. So like what? This doesn't have to be the whole conversation, but like what's on your heart, like why do you get tired of the same old thing and and what's that about?
Speaker 1yeah, no, that's a great, that's a great question. I think, uh, yeah, I mean, I'm coming off of a kind of a long period of I sort of realized, um, the beginning of this summer, like with the exception of, uh, like covid, which I don't even necessarily know, if I count that as a break, because it was, I don't know, it didn't feel like a break to me. Um, I've basically been like like writing and recording albums and then touring, when that's um, an option, almost like nonstop, since like 2017. And uh, yeah, like, eventually, this I just wrapped up like my fourth record, my I don't know how many, if many, if tour, and yeah, I think it. Just there's something that feels a little yeah like I don't, I don't exactly want to do the same thing just again.
Speaker 1I don't want to, like, fire up that wheel, um, and so, yeah, I've just been getting trying to get excited about other stuff and other other art. Um, don't really know what I'm doing, but I'm giving it a shot.
Speaker 2I like that. That's so cool man. Just to literally be like all right, I'm an artist. I'm not just a singer, songwriter, I'm a daggum, I'm a, I'm a. Go be an artist Like that's.
Speaker 1That's cool man, that's yeah, again, I can, and maybe by the time this podcast is out there will be a I don't know how, what a lag there is on your release schedule, but maybe there'll be a very bad film in the world that I made we can reassess if that really counts as me being an artist, if it comes out before this podcast.
Speaker 3It'll definitely be bad.
Speaker 1If you bust out a film in the next month. It's not looking good.
Speaker 2I mean, we're not fast, but I think films take a minute. You're gonna give us a minute? You're gonna give us any insight on what's it about, or you don't want somebody to, like, poach your idea?
Speaker 1I don't. I don't know if I'm at risk for that, but uh, I think I mean it's sort of uh, I don't know, it's like, it's kind of like a coming of age sort of thing. Um, there's some crime in it. I don't know. I'm just kind of shooting.
Speaker 1Yeah, like, um, I think it's it's a closer thing to, uh, it's songwriting than I guess I expected, because it really is like, I think a lot of times songs, you know you're trying to bottle an experience into like a pretty short form kind of you know presentation, and I think this is like in a lot of ways similar, trying to just do like a snapshot of, like maybe something about growing up or something about, um, you know, a life experience. Uh, what's kind of fun with the the screenplay side is it's um, I don't really do a lot of. You know. There's like, you know you got your classic like Bob Dylan, you know writing about Joanna or whomever that maybe doesn't actually exist. I've never really done that in my songs, like write about some fictional sort of thing. So to get to do fiction is kind of a fun way to mess with writing that I haven't really gotten to do Right.
Speaker 3Because, like a lot of your inspiration and your music has come from your real lived experience. Yeah, for sure. Yeah, you mentioned a little of something like a piece of what I feel like may be difficult sometimes as an artist. I have artistic bent but I'm not an artist. But I think sometimes the world likes to give us labels and so once you produce something that the culture likes, then you're asked for the same thing and I process sometimes how lonely it must be to always be following your passion and direction, when you could be making the people who have quote, got you there or supported you angry at the next thing that you want to do or you want to lay down what you're doing. So and then you don't want to be disingenuous, right, Because it was genuine authenticity that got you quote, got you there in the first place. But now your new authenticity is not the same as what you were.
Speaker 1So yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 3How does that? How do you? I feel like that would be pressure, but are you able to just like let it roll off your back, or what? How does that work in your mind in terms of conflict?
Speaker 1Yeah, no, that's a. That's a great question, I think, um, it's very true that there becomes a bit of a like it's, like not. It's not like anybody's saying like, hey, you better, you better make another this kind of song or this kind of thing, but you feel it because you, you know people's, people sort of speak with their engagement, right, like I've kind of learned like peek behind the curtain on my analysis of my own career. I guess it's like if I do like some sort of like mid tempo piano driven worship ask song, people are gonna dig it and I honestly, at this point in my life, like I feel like I've I've written enough of those and I'm not super interested in doing it. I've written enough of those and I'm not super interested in doing it.
Speaker 1Um, and it is kind of tough because you're like I feel like on this last record in particular, I really kind of intentionally put myself in kind of an ISO situation where, um, very actively trying to not listen to like outside input, like the kind of the goal was to write a lot of it myself, not have a lot of co-writers If they were co-writing, to have it be kind of late in the game, just kind of like wrapping things up versus like ideas for stuff, because I wanted to say more things than I didn't.
Speaker 1I didn't really want to retread old ground, but it's. I think you're kind of hitting on like what is ultimately the most difficult task of artists is that, like you, you have to be okay with the fact that, like for you to be genuine and to keep moving forward and keep being like interested and engaged with like your own creative, like endeavors, you have to be willing for people to be like I don't really want to follow you on that trip which, you know, for anybody who is trying to find, you know, some affirmation in the things that they do, that's kind of a hard balance to strike or hard path to like go down, you know.
Speaker 2Yeah, yeah. By the way, manna is literally and this is no joke the best Christian album I've ever listened to. Oh, man. No joke.
Speaker 1Nice, I got the affirmation. I'm good If you'd like a little affirmation, yeah.
Speaker 2That's so kind, thank you. It sounds so honest. Thank you, I don't know, man. Man, it was just like how is that christian music like in a good way? And yeah, I was a big fan, dude, I saw you play live at um the foundry at judson mill in greenville, south carolina, and I brought one of my buddies and um we were hanging out and you played faith and dude was like that actually slaps.
Speaker 2I was like yeah, he's not like listening to whatever you know christian music there is. He's just like was listening to you and he was like no faiths. Yeah, that that hits pretty good. So I don't know just just to encourage you a little bit that that album is I'm not joking Me and my wife have probably listened to it 50 times Like it's insane.
Speaker 1I appreciate that so much. Yeah, I feel I feel really proud of that record. I think, um, for me it was definitely like. Uh, I feel like every album I've made I've I've gotten more into like and it's been a very I think it's been a natural progression. But, like, my first record was very much like. I would describe it as like like a worship album with like some kind of personal anecdotal stuff, like, but very little. And then it's kind of like. Every subsequent record has had more of my like overt personal experience kind of put into it and it's it's been a really just like creatively very gratifying experience to to make manna, because I think it as far as like a songwriter and trying to like tell story and really kind of get a little more autobiographical with it, like I got to do that and it seemed like it kind of worked. So, um, that's cool to hear. I'm appreciate that.
Speaker 3Yeah, your songs, like specifically in that album. Grant is a Music I don't even know Like what. Is it audiophile or music Nerd? Like you, love music.
Speaker 2Yeah, I'm definitely a music Nerd, no doubt.
Speaker 3For him to tell me like this dude's album Is like my favorite album Of all time, like it was a big deal For him to say that and like I I feel like your lyrics like stick with me and some of it is. But like I'm a lyrical person, my wife like almost doesn't hear lyrics, she just hears like the music, which it's just strange. Like I'll be like did you hear that? And she's like I don't even know what they said. We were listening.
Speaker 3I I made her listen to the Holy Ghost song or that line like the Holy Ghost keeps haunting me and I loved how you were kind of tongue in cheek. There's humor in it. You talk about standing there and you're the only one that didn't lock your knees and wondering what's wrong with you. And I play that. I'm just smiling and it's funny and worshipful. But I can't get away from him because he keeps chasing me with you and like I play that, I'm just like smiling and it's funny and worshipful, but there's still like but I can't get away from him because he keeps like chasing me. I want it, but I don't want what's fake. And then I asked my wife I'm like do you hear? Like that was awesome. She's like I mean, I didn't listen to the lyrics. I'm like what are you doing?
Speaker 3like the drums were good, the drums were sounds good they're slapping it and, yeah, I really liked a lot of the I don't call it like gallows humor, as much as just like I believe that love, light and dark love and death. Like there's a paradox in this life, and so it feels like you walk the line of the paradox of like here's the way I feel about things and here's what feels a little bit like bs to some degree of what I was introduced to. And then here's like I still want these things, um, even your song about like um, you know, uh, prozac, I think it would like the chemicals not being right and things, and it's like I don't know when did you get the freedom, I guess, to just this is going to sound stupid when did you get the freedom to say what you actually think and feel in a song?
Speaker 1Yeah, man, where did you get this freedom? Because?
Speaker 3I like that.
Speaker 2Who let?
Speaker 1you do that Not yeah, well, I mean yeah, um, I guess on, on the one hand, this was my first record in a few years. I went, I went indie again before putting it out, so that definitely felt like a little bit of freedom as far as doing my own thing. But yeah, I mean, I've always been the kind of person where it's like I have like a terrible poker face, like in every sense of the phrase. You know, if I'm having a good time, you'll be able to tell, if I'm having a bad time, we'll be able to tell, and I think I've been. You know, I started going to church like pretty regularly when I was a teenager.
Navigating Authenticity in the Music Industry
Speaker 1Um, and you know, really like personally getting you know going for it. I guess, uh, and it's always just been this kind of thing where, like, if it feels like it's uh bullshit, then I like, oh sorry, can I say that? Um, if it, if it feels uh bullshit, then I like, oh sorry, can I say yeah, whatever you want? Um, if it feels like bullshit, it probably is. And uh, you know, I I don't feel um, yeah, I guess it's it's. It's been a thing since I've been a part of like the you you know quote unquote Christian music industry. There's so much facade that exists and I don't necessarily think that it's it's not like people are like hiding them. Well, it's like it's like people are are very much there're. It's like they're so certain that saying what feels like obvious to everyone, um, like like a critique or or you know what feels like too honest or like you know scary, honest or something like that, that that would like they're like so certain that it will be received poorly that it's never even an option. And I think I, like I I had a couple, so I signed a record deal back in like 2018 and kind of like quickly got exposed to the idea that like, oh, like, my music is not radio music and it's not necessarily church music and in in the again like industry side of things, that's basically like well, it's for no one.
Speaker 1But the really cool thing is that, like the whole time, I've always loved playing shows. It's my favorite part of the whole time. I've always loved playing shows. It's my favorite part of the whole kind of artist thing and started playing these shows and people started coming to the shows and so I had this kind of like these, these opposing things, kind of, or like uh, it felt like it was like this. On one side it was like, ah, like your music it doesn't work for radio, it doesn't work for church, so it's like it's not for anybody. But then I would go and I'd play a show and people would show up and I'm like, well, these are people and so it has to be for like it's not for no one.
Speaker 1And I think that was a pretty freeing experience to be like, well, I'm not trying to fit, you know, I'm not trying to be on a ccli, know, I'm not trying to be on a CCLI chart and I'm not trying to be on a radio chart, which means like the only reason that people are showing up is because I'm saying things that I believe in. And so I actually think, like the best thing I can do is say the things that I believe and just leaned into it hard and definitely like I, you know, to it hard and definitely like I, you know I couldn't probably be farther from a hit than I've ever been, but I'm definitely the most creatively fulfilled that I've ever been and that's uh, I would consider that worth it man yeah whatever it is, it's just.
Speaker 2If a lot of people like it, that means that it's art right. If everybody listens to it, that means it's good right yeah, I think it was a mark.
Speaker 3Yeah, totally right, I had kimi romano, something along the lines of like, the moment that you find yourself with the majority, it's a time to step back and think about your choices from mark Mark. Twain? I think that might be. I may be misquoting.
Speaker 2If it is, he needs to think about his choices, because, he's one of the best authors there is.
Speaker 1Well, I've asked that question in recent time that there's a lot of things that get put under the same umbrella that I don't really think have any business being under the same umbrella, like a category. There's like art and entertainment gets paired together a lot and I like that Venn diagram is they're not as overlapped as I would consider they often like get said to be. You know, like what's entertaining it's not necessarily art and art is not necessarily entertaining. But you know, sometimes those things get to coexist and I but I think they couldn't come from more opposing, like goal mindsets, I guess, like to set out to make something that's going to be like mass consumable, entertaining, easy to palette, versus like setting out to like make a statement or say something that is like hard or scary, or you know that you know might not be received well, like those couldn't be like more different, but then you know that is that they, they both can be called music or they both can be called cinema or they both can be called art. So it's kind of a confusing thing.
Speaker 3It sounds like you just juxtaposed the idea of setting out to make something entertaining and then setting out just to be true. There's a big difference.
Speaker 2I'm thinking about business, and some people go into business just to make money and some people go because they love the thing. There's a huge difference there.
Speaker 3Yeah, I don't know People that make art, don't. There's this concept of you need to work from the inspiration that's within you, not seek to create what everybody else wants Like. You're made in the image of God, uniquely right, and your experiences are one of a kind. And so there's a certain reflection, certain color, certain resonance that comes from Chris Rimsoma that unless he's actually honest and sincere, we'll never hear those notes from heaven, we'll never see those reflections, and so it almost feels to me like there's a demand from the world and from heaven for you to be authentically who you're made to be, but that demand is almost like the voice of silence, like it's not supported by the masses.
Finding Confidence in Artistic Expression
Speaker 1Yeah, no, I think that's right. I think there's. I was literally just talking to a friend this morning about kind of this same thing, like how, uh, like I want to be someone and I think, like most people, if they like dig down behind, like motives and stuff, like I think I, like, I want, I want to be someone who, like contributes well to like the whole. You know what I mean. Like I don't want to just make noise and I don't want to just like, uh, we were talking about how many sorry this is, like I might be like making your worst podcast episode ever, um, but I promise you can't, okay, okay, um, we were talking about, uh, drop shipping.
Speaker 1You guys know about like that, oh yeah, and basically how it's like okay, there's like this whole trend now of people who, like they don't make the product, they just sell the product and it like shows. You know, it's like this whole thing where it's like to be rather cynical, which I have a bent towards, it's like to me I'm like it kind of just feels like we're just we're exchanging money and we're filling landfills and that just feels kind of bad and like I would hope that whatever I'm doing in my life is attempting to contribute something, not just like, you know exchange currency and you know use things, I guess. And I do think that there's a that's kind of your split in the road as far as, like, art v? Um entertainment, which entertainment maybe is just sales at the end of the day? Um, I don't. Yeah, it's great, if you know you're a salesman, get after it. Uh, that's just not.
Speaker 2I'm not a salesman, so I'm not interested but note to don't pitch Chris a dropshipping idea.
Speaker 1Do not.
Speaker 2Yeah. We went in here with a plan and that was it.
Speaker 1I know that this was all going to dovetail into that, but not interested Also.
Speaker 3have you heard of Amway oh?
Speaker 1man, you want to know a fun fact about Amway.
Speaker 2Oh man, you want to know a fun fact about.
Speaker 1Amway. So I grew up in Grand Rapids, michigan, and I lived like half a mile from Amway's world headquarters. Holy crap, this giant factory that just like polluted the river and it was just, you know, literally on my way to school. Every day past like a two mile stretch of just factory. It's crazy talk about adding to the landfill, it's like killing fish. It's a bad vibe. I'm not.
Speaker 3I don't support it all right, so check that off the list I work for amway. Yeah, I'm anti-dropship, anti-mlm yeah, I love your worst podcast ever and my thoughts are. You know there's been podcasts with just me and grant on them. We're not that is true, it's already a win. There's somebody else here, yeah that's a fact.
Speaker 3Um, I had a. I actually asked a friend that's like a massive you know music nerd and went to school for music and just one of my best friends, and I sent him some of your stuff and he said, uh, dude, this guy is really awesome, he's really musical. And I basically just asked him I was like not being facetious, what does that mean? And he said, well, because I'm a foodie. And he said, well, if certain music is just like a peanut butter sandwich, then this guy's stuff is like a lasagna, like it's just layered and solid.
Speaker 3I was like, well, give me your thought of a question for something you've always been burning to ask for an artist. And I thought this was really solid, but it's also in line with what we're talking about. And so he said in a day and age where it seems as though everything has been said and so much has already been sung, where do you find the will and desire or confidence to stick your musical flag in the ground and say hear ye, hear ye, hear me, and shout out to John Dewey, my boy. But what I guess is still coming up in my mind is like how do you maintain that confidence to keep putting your flag in the ground with the next thing.
Authenticity and Individuality in Music
Speaker 1Yeah, I mean, I think there's kind of a couple ways you can look at it. I mean, like in, in one sense, when I first started writing um, um, a lot of the reason I became a writer is the desire to work out something in me, um, so, like you know, when I was writing my first ever songs, they were, you know, trying to process my relationship with God and uh, what I, you know, understood about that, and it's kind of always been that, and so I think that's important as far as, like any expression that, like you at least, start with yourself as like quote, unquote, like the odd sorry I've said quote, unquote a lot, but I'm doing air quotes you just can't um, like you're the audience, you're the first audience, I guess, for anything that you make, and so I think it's like, if for nothing else, it's expressing something that you need to get out, then I think that's worthwhile, even if there's not like a greater kind of audience for what you're doing. And I, I think, for myself, like you know, there are like everything is you know you're, you only have 12 notes and you only have so many chords and so many words, and the thing that is actually still unique. That I think makes things worth saying is, like you, your experience is unique, and so if you're like willing and able to put that into your song, then there's actually something fresh to say and something that I think is worthwhile to share. And yeah, I think where, I think, where a lot of writers go wrong is this, especially in Christian music.
Speaker 1I think it's just bad advice is this idea that, like a song needs to have like universality in order to be, um, like relatable or appealing, and I've just like found that to be kind of the opposite of the truth, like, um, you know, we, we are, you know, I guess, if you're not a sociopath, we have like empathy on purpose, Like they're, like we're created to, um, you know, understand each other's experiences that aren't our own experiences, and to be able to like read into and relate. And so, you know, holy Ghost, like you mentioned earlier that song, like that example of you know being at the pop-up revival, like that actually happened to me and I'm sure for a lot of people that's not their experience, but I think the experience of asking a question that you feel like you're not supposed to ask, that is something that probably everyone has felt at some point. And so you know, we weren't all in Grand Rapids at a you know know aggressive outdoor church meetup, but we were, you know, all kind of growing up figuring out things, asking questions about god and uh truth and um, yeah, can like see each other in those things. So now I'm just rambling, but something like that dude.
Speaker 2that makes me think god and prozac, by the way, is is pretty unreal as far as like the honesty by it, because first of all, just the title of the song, it's like immediately it's like okay, this isn't steven curtis chapman. Like this is, this is something a little different. And just by the way, I have bipolar, so just the, it's like bipolar two or something, it's whatever gives you the old manic episode every now and again. The old episode.
Speaker 2The old episode will get you every time, but I don't know.
Speaker 2I just thought the honesty about the mental illness struggle was pretty huge and because it's not like you, like you know, laid in and you were like, oh man, you know there's no hope, kind of thing, it was just like this is what I'm feeling right now.
Speaker 2Like I I have been taking meds and that seems kind of weird because I'm writing a bunch of christian songs and that dude. That resonated hard with me. Maybe that's not a universal thing, but I was just like, yeah, dude, whatever that feeling is of like being like man, I am a broken human being and God is good, I want to bring glory to God, but also like man, we're just broken vessels. Like it's not even close, and just the honesty that you take Prozac or whatever it is it doesn't have to be mental illness, but just being able to wear that on your sleeve and actually like be honest about it, I think truly helps people. Just it's like, oh, I can be a Christian beyond medicine and it's okay to feel kind of weird about it, like I don't know. I thought that was really valuable to me personally.
Speaker 1Yeah, I'm glad, man. I think that song, like you're saying it's maybe not a universal experience that I hope conveys is like this sort of, you know, the kind of paradoxical nature of like the already not yet thing that we hear, where it's like you know, like yes, like there's like redemption, there's healing, but it's like also in process and it's and it's now, but it's later, and it's like also in process and it's and it's now, but it's later, and it's, you know, and and that isn't all tidy, uh and neat all the time, and I think, uh, yeah, I'm glad to hear that that it's relatable, because that that definitely was one song where I was like ooh, like really throwing out some info here A little spooky.
Speaker 2They actually might know something about me.
Speaker 1I would hate that.
Speaker 3I like the language that you guys are using. I was just kind of like writing down some thoughts, and one that just jumped out was, you know, when one seeks to speak universally, they lose the ability to communicate individually. And so I think what you're doing, like trying to be universal when you are an individual, it does feel like you have to put on a mask, like you either have to speak from where you are or where you think the ideal is, and like the universal ideal is not who and where you are, and so I don't know, I just love that you're kind of the lane of thought that you're on, in that there are certain principles that are universal, but those are not as prevalent in your current experience. There are certain promises of God that are true, but sometimes His face is hidden behind the clouds, and there are hopes that are true, like you just said, that are here not yet. But then there's also your present active experience, and to me being able to be honest about that, yeah, I like what you said, like just kind of writing songs that you're not supposed to write or asking questions that you're not supposed to ask, and it's like you know, when you encourage a kid to be the first one to raise his hand and ask a question.
Speaker 3It's like just go first, because everybody else has the question but they're all too scared to ask. So if you go ahead and be the one that raises your hand and looks silly or whatever it is, you have the courage to step forward for everybody else. Yeah, so I don't know. I commend you for that and I think that God absolutely uses you and I love what you said earlier. They say that this is for nobody, but there's people at these shows. It's not for their people or it's not for a certain type of, but it's for these people.
Speaker 2It's for the fringe Christians. No, I'm just kidding.
Speaker 3Are there any other?
Speaker 2Other, any other?
Speaker 3Is there anything other than a fringe christian?
Speaker 1oh, gotcha, gotcha see, that's yeah, you're getting onto something there I thought that everyone was christian in america.
Speaker 3No, I'm just kidding, I'm not gonna go on that how has that led you, like not being on the radio, not really having space in the, you know, in the religious world, the church world? Like I'll be real like, do you have a church that you attend consistently?
Navigating Artistic Expression and Authenticity
Speaker 1Like, how has it led you to stay in community but not be dismissive of or angry, yeah, I mean, that's definitely like a, it's a moving target and it is admittedly pretty hard from like a lifestyle perspective of of being like a touring guy, uh, cause I am out of town often more than I'm in town, um, um, so I've, I'm, I've got like a church I go to, but it's, uh, it's. It is kind of tough to be there's a. I'm in this sort of season now where it's like my first real consistent time in I live in Nashville, uh, that I'm home for like the foreseeable future, and it's been. It's been kind of like uh, I don't know if this sounds bad, it's, but it's felt a little bit like a chore, trying to like get back into a rhythm, showing up being a part of like a local thing. Cause I do think like I might be getting off the topic of your question, but I think what can become pretty self-defeating is when you get really used to being like the you know, outside critic of the thing, whatever that may be.
Speaker 1I think, in my case, maybe like a lot of the weird stuff that happens in Christianity, I don't think that the critiquesiques are invalid, but I do think that, like they're a lot more valid if you are part of the thing you know, yeah, um, and ultimately, you know, my hope is like, when someone hears, like my record is that they hear that there is like a love for christ and like a love for the church, like because I, I, I do have that. It's like I get frustrated about things. Don't get me wrong, but I don't really think I have any room to, you know, say that something is this or that, if I'm not participating in trying to make it better. You know Right, but yeah, it's, I'm still figuring it out. I can be, I can be, I can be the arms crossed guy a little bit yeah, it's not like that at all, dude I have.
Speaker 3I have weird days. I don't know if I'm bipolar. I have days that I'm the my people, and then days like please don't talk to me, so yeah I feel that 100 I was thinking, um, while I go this, you just kind of riff on this.
Speaker 3But when you were talking about art and he said, you know, I became a writer to work out something in me, and a friend and I were recently talking about like great, the great artists. Great, I'm going to replace the word with leaders, if that's okay, because, like, I think art is one way to look at it, but also just anybody that leads. Well, I think they lead from a place of necessity that they have to write, they have to get something worked out, they have to follow that step of faith. It's not I think artists lead, I think men in households lead, I think CEOs lead I mean Steve Jobs is an example or others of just like an insane necessity to have something like worked out in their motivation.
Speaker 3But what I was processing when you said that from a Christian standpoint, is the idea that you know, scripture says that we're God's masterpiece, and so it was interesting to think like we have to get something out, and then the thing that comes out is creative because we're made in the image of the creator, and then in the getting out of the things, like his masterpieces worked, because we're just like.
Speaker 3It would almost be like I don't know, like if a paintbrush was filled with blood. It's just like you just got to get whatever is in you out and it doesn't matter, and it's not for the purpose of entertaining to your point. But then all of a sudden the creator is glorified because you just did the deep work of getting those things out without the purpose of trying to like entertain the masses. So I just think you painted like a beautiful picture in that like I became an artist to get something, to work something out in me. And I don't know, I'm just processing the idea of like God, god made you an artist to work something out of you as well.
Speaker 1Yeah, no, it's cool, yeah. Yeah, I think it's definitely like a. It's a kind of like what we were touching on earlier, that I was musing about earlier, of that sort of like art versus, you know, commercial entertainment things, the, the goals are really different. You know, in order for you know a piece of like, you know, you know for like a record label, or you know a business minded person, for a song to be good means that it has to be heard. You know, on like a wide scale and make a lot of money and, um, you know, that's not, you're not, you're not working with the same like value system.
Speaker 1I guess, when you're coming at it from like an expression sort of standpoint, and I think it's, it's kind of a bummer that we live in like a time where, like, I definitely feel the pull of like you know yours, you go on like your cell phone and it's like, uh, I don't have Tik TOK but I have Instagram, which is now just Tik TOK, um, but it's like, like, it's like people, people don't even like. I don't know if people realize how they've gotten like sold this idea that, like, they need like virality or they need like to become like an internet personality or or whatever like that, just like doing something, personality or or whatever like that, just like doing something is not good enough anymore. Um, that that makes me kind of kind of sad. Um, because man, I just I've had some really special times, uh, pre the iPhone, pre the iPhone, just like me in my room and my guitar, and I hope people still find that and I know people do how would you say that we could avoid losing that?
Speaker 1um, probably one of those what's it called an EMP, emp.
Speaker 2I thought it was like philosophy, or why it for me?
Journey to Personal Truth and Success
Speaker 1Throw in an EMP. Throw in a EMP. Let's probably go back to the Stone Age. I think you need to keep doing screenplay and also go do stand-up comedy.
Speaker 3Yeah, there we go I'll take it.
Speaker 1I think, uh, I mean to answer your question. Actually, I, I wish I had an answer, I don't know if I do. I I what I can say. I think it is a very intentional work to like foster that space, um, because I think the idea that everything needs to be commercially successful in order to be valuable is also a very high-paced perspective. It means that, all right, we need to be working stuff out, getting it out, getting it to people, it to people, um, and you know that's not uh I this is probably not a one-to-one uh example, but don't call me out on it but uh, like you know, you think about like sculptures, or like the 16th chapel or something that it's like that was not a fast process and not like you know, those are like being, it's like the chapel in particular, like an enduring piece of like human art on like a global scale, and it took years and years and years, um, you know that that would never fly in a today's economy, and so I think it.
Speaker 1I think it just takes a lot of like actually desiring to kind of reval, like reorder your values. You know, um, but that doesn't, you know, it doesn't just happen. I think the EMP is a better idea.
Speaker 2Dude now that you mention it, that's, that's crazy, cause I really haven't, I really haven't thought, I didn't realize how much poison was in my brain until just now. So appreciate it, but but it really is. That is something I think about often. For no reason, it's like because, like I'd like to write a book, just because, just because I want to, but then it's like, would anybody read it? You know that whole thing which comes into play, or, like I want to, I wanted to do a podcast, literally just because I wanted to, and then you know, it's got a little bit of traction, whatever, and then now it's almost like I don't know man, just the success of people, like being like, hey, this needs to be successful, or else what you're doing isn't worth doing, and just defining success differently. It's huge.
Speaker 1Well, dude, I mean.
Speaker 2What is, chris? What is your definition of success?
Speaker 1Man, that's hard. I don't know if it's hard.
Speaker 2I didn't want to ask you.
Speaker 3I didn't want to do it. We don't take questions back, Chris tell me.
Speaker 1I think like and let's say this is it can be an evolving definition Cause I'm not. I'm, when I write my book I'll, I'll have it in stone, but uh, I'm not writing a book. Uh, actually kind of a funny aside. I've had a lot of people stone but I'm not writing a book. Actually kind of a funny aside. I've had a lot of people ask me if I'm writing a book because of that song God in Prozac, where I use the idiom I've been writing the book on.
Speaker 3I've been writing the book.
Speaker 1He's obviously writing a book on this, this sorry, it's not bad if you thought he said that he was writing the book.
Speaker 1It was just a thing I've come to take this literally. The book is, it's on the way and, oh god, definition of success. You know, I think I'll say for me, like and it's specific to me, but like you know what I'll say, like very zeroed in on what I do, as far as like music and things like that, like, as long as I'm like proud of what I'm saying and how I'm saying it, then I'm happy. I'm saying and how I'm saying it, then I'm happy. Um, I think you know you can apply that to other places and I, and I think maybe, like, probably, how you would say, that would be just like actually being truthful to yourself. And I think, like also you know how that crosses. Um, uh, what am I trying to say here? Cut this, uh, like like being being true to yourself, but not in like the woo, woo kind of like self is the end kind of way in the fact that, like I'm on a journey to understand God and myself, in like what it means to become like Christ. And I think that, like you know, as far as my creative output, as long as I'm like honestly doing that and I'm stoked with like from, like just the artistic side, how I'm doing it, and I'm not compromising in those places and that feels like success to me. You know, whether or not it's received well or makes money or something like that, I think that's an entirely other thing.
Speaker 1Um, because you know, when I made my first record, I I was very I come from I mentioned it earlier like grew up in grand rapids, michigan. There's no music scene in, I mean, I don't know there used to be a music scene in Detroit, not really anymore. Um, there was this very like humble idea of what, like, a music person could do with their life. Like, when I looked around, the examples that I saw were, you know, you could be a guitar teacher, you could like, maybe work at a church and like, if you're making like albums, like that was something you did for you, because I didn't know a soul who you know put out records that were actually heard by anyone, and so that was kind of my whole thought. Like you know, that still seemed really worth doing, of my whole thought, like you know, that still seemed really worth doing and so, um, very long-winded way to say that whatever words I just said are my it's a complicated question.
Speaker 2It sounds. Yeah, it's easy to ask, hard to answer, so I'd I gave you a curveball for a second well if it makes you feel better.
Speaker 3Before you started talking, I wrote remaining true in oneself without surrender.
Speaker 1I mean come on. I would say I aced that then.
Speaker 3I'm in agreement with you Pretty good, that sounds better. Why didn't you just?
Speaker 1say that dude.
Speaker 3You said that. Well, I wrote to oneself. But on your note of not in the worldly way remaining true to oneself, I agree with you. There's not anything in myself that's true. So it may be a better word would be finding truth in oneself without surrender, or remaining true in oneself Like I just agree with you, like I, or or maybe a way that I've said that before is like honesty without surrender, like I'm honestly broken, I'm honestly desperate, I'm honestly weak. I think because I think that's the path to truth is like radical honesty and I think a lot of times that's the reason that, like relationships aren't healthy. It's because we just BS each other Like it's fine, I'm fine, you're fine, it's fine, it's definitely not fine, don't look at me and say it's fine.
Speaker 2Everything's fine.
Speaker 3We're going to talk later. Yeah, Gosh man.
Speaker 2Do you have final thoughts? Dude? This? This is definition of success.
Speaker 2I love that you added the caveat because the lie is, you know it right, but self is not a bad thing, it's just the lie of it, of be true to yourself, be focused on yourself, is a beautiful thing. If you're like watching, basically, god love you, like he loves you more than anything, like a ridiculous, ridiculous amount that I can't comprehend. It's insane. But watching Him love you that much and the amount of validation that he actually gives His children is ridiculous. So in that sense it's like, if you look at God's definition of you in Christ, huge Focus on self. In that sense. So I love that caveat of you know to stay true to yourself, but through God's lens, if that makes sense. So that was huge for me because you always hear like be true to yourself, but it's like be true to yourself, but God is the one that gives you the validation, god is the one that gives you truth. Like you cannot say truth without the power of God. Like that's it to me anyway. Like he is good to me anyway.
Speaker 3Like he is good, like he is the definition of good and no goodness exists without him. Yeah, I don't know. So, yeah, I like your answer. Yeah, I, yeah. My just comment on that is that kind of what I feel like it's what chris has been saying the whole time to some degree, because we've just been talking about how to like can continually keep stepping into that next season, even if nobody else.
Speaker 3I actually wrote down what you said earlier, which is, in order to pursue creativity, or who you have to be, you have to be okay with people saying I'm not going to follow you on that journey, and that to me, my wife and I often talk about how faith is a lonely journey, and you've written about that in your songs and I think, by nature, faith to some degree is a lonely journey because nobody else's choices of faith are your choices of faith. And then you can't necessarily get confirmation. Confirmation like, hey, should I do this or should I go this direction, or what should this next step look like? Because, like it's you, like God's working out your you know, work out your salvation with fear and trembling, like it's you that he's working in. And so I just wanted to like give you a word of encouragement that I'm so happy that this started with you being like I'm writing a screenplay and I'm ready to like.
Speaker 3I'm ready to like take a step in a new, like live.
Speaker 3I just hear like a lively direction because, like I love your music and then I love how there is like a friend and I talk about this cycle of um DBRA, which is like death, burial, resurrection, ascension death, burial, resurrection, ascension Like there's always that process in cycle, even in the cycle of like the seasons and plant growth and life.
Speaker 3And so, like to me, when someone says, like I want to enter into this, like I just want to enjoy something fresh and new, Like that's exciting to me from an artist who's already done that before and like found other fresh new things and then created an entire new, like demographic of interest because they were just sincere, and so I'm not like being all Pentecostal and speaking a word of your life, unless you want me to. I'm just sincere, and so I'm not like being all Pentecostal and speaking a word of your life unless you want me to. I'm just kidding, but but like I just hear your heart of like I want to discover the next thing and that's exciting and I just want to encourage you Like it is exciting and whatever is coming is awesome.
Speaker 1Yeah, thanks man. Sorry, my AirPods just died. Can you still hear me?
Speaker 2Yeah Well.
Speaker 1I appreciate it.
Speaker 2Hit us up with any. Do you have any final thoughts, any things you want to share with our audience?
Speaker 1Oh man, no, I mean, it's just our moms that listen.
Speaker 2Yeah, it's just our moms.
Speaker 1Okay, cool is your mom listening heck.
Speaker 3Yeah, bro, I thought it was just my mom. Your mom listens and and likes me yeah, it's weird.
Speaker 2Okay, you wanted to do your mom joke at the end.
Speaker 1All right, good, there you go rock and roll no, I mean, I mean, I think, uh, I appreciate this conversation.
Speaker 1I think there's uh, there's something I'm encouraged by a lot of the questions like you're asking, because I think, sometimes, kind of like what you just said, like the path, feeling kind of lonely or the journey of faith, um, I think, especially when you are trying to do it with that like air of honesty, because there are folks when, when I put out you know God and Prozac, who are like, yeah, man, you don't get it, like, um, you know, and that's sucks.
Speaker 1But uh, I think, you know, if more people not saying that I'm like the master of this at all, because I'm not, but I'm encouraged by you guys just from the fact that there are people asking those questions and pursuing the Lord and doing so in a way that is trying to see, you know, see some honesty. And I think when more people do that, like we can actually, you know, relate to each other's stories and actually kind of be there for each other, and I think that's cool. That was all just sort of word salad, so, you know, cut that together how you like, just cut the last 30 minutes.
Cautious Believer in Ghosts
Speaker 2It was beautiful dude, it's so good. Thanks for listening to the across the counter podcast. If you enjoyed the show, please rate us 5 stars wherever you got this podcast. Thanks y'all. I've always been a little cynical. They say I've got a skeptical nature Doesn't mean I'm not hopeful. Just means that I'm a cautious believer.
Speaker 1It's the craziest thing after all I've seen, but I still want to believe that only ghost keeps on me. That only ghost keeps on me.