Violence, Trauma, & Art

In this episode of Lattes & Art, host James William Moore sits down with John Joseph Contreras Romero, a sculptor and educator whose art explores the intersections of violence, trauma, and healing. With a BA in Art and a Minor in Education from the University of California, Santa Cruz, and an MFA in Spatial Arts from San José State University, John brings a nuanced perspective shaped by his experiences as a veteran of the Afghanistan war, a first-generation college graduate, and the son of immigrants. Through creative investigations in trauma, memory, and loss, John discusses how art has become a tool for healing—both for himself and his audience. Join us as we explore the ways art can foster resilience, process difficult emotions, and spark conversations around critical social issues.

Photo Credit: Jose Rojas (@josenotjordan)

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Transcript

00;00;01;22 - 00;00;37;23
James
Welcome to Lattes & Art, presented by J-Squared Atelier, where creativity meets conversation. I'm your host, James William Moore, and today's episode delves into a topic as profound as it is complex violence, trauma and art. Joining us is the insightful John Joseph Contreras Romero, an expert in using art as a therapeutic tool in mental health practices. We'll explore how art provides a safe space for expressing pain, healing, trauma, and rebuilding identity.

00;00;37;25 - 00;00;53;25
James
Offering not only personal solace but also a window into society issues. Grab your favorite espresso drink and settle in. This is an important conversation you won't want to miss.

00;00;53;28 - 00;01;12;06
James
Thanks for joining us today. I'm excited to get into this conversation. We have John joining me, and we're going to talk about a bunch of stuff. But before we get into it, in case you're not familiar with John, I'm going to give him a second. First, John, thank you for being here. Tell us, who are you? Why why do you do what you do?

00;01;12;07 - 00;01;13;17
James
What is your background?

00;01;13;23 - 00;01;35;24
John
Thanks for having me on the show. James, I appreciate you. So I'm a second generation Mexican-American first generation college student in my family. Also a first gen, military veteran of my family as well. I grew up from, immigrant parents, you know, both from Mexico, one from Guadalajara Jalisco and the other one from Michoacán. Mexico.

00;01;35;26 - 00;02;04;02
John
Don't tell me. Don't ask me about the city. He's my dad's from. I. He you know, it was just like, it's just a general area, but, Yeah. Yeah, yeah. But, yeah, that's how I am. And, you know, I went to school a little later than a couple of folks. So I graduated from UCSC, or UC Santa Cruz, back in 2019 with my, my BA in art and my minor in education, and then immediately went into the MFA program at San Jose State University and spatial Arts.

00;02;04;02 - 00;02;08;08
James
So you were kind of old to the school game like I was. Yeah, yeah.

00;02;08;11 - 00;02;12;22
John
Yeah, yeah. I mean, yeah, like what, 2324. Going back to school.

00;02;12;22 - 00;02;34;06
James
So, whatever. I was in my 40s. It's funny, a couple of them called me mom. So you talk about the cultural background that you had. You talk about being in the armed services. How does all of that come to your art?

00;02;34;08 - 00;03;05;21
John
I mean it comes in so many different ways. I mean just growing up just totally. Yeah. I'm trying to think of the word but like just engulfed inside of like mainstream like, you know, music to like movies to all these other things. Right. Just like growing up in a very, like, very full home. You know, I have four sisters and two brothers and, you know, immediately, like seeing how fast we came up in terms of like, well, you know, I just remember, like, always having a dirty house and then suddenly the dirty house was just always getting cleaner, like every year, you know what I mean?

00;03;05;21 - 00;03;31;28
John
And it was just people were suddenly like, in school or then going off to school and, like, coming back, but then moving out. I digress, but yeah, so how all that kind of culminates into my art. I mean, I would say like I was, you know, raised in a very diverse neighborhood. You know, we had like Polynesian people, you know, we had a really strong, you know, Mexican, American or just Latin American community as well as like a large, black population within.

00;03;31;28 - 00;03;52;16
John
We called it East Menlo. It's Menlo, but it's, you know, we say East Menlo because it was totally different from what West Menlo or Menlo. Atherton looked, you know, granted, it wasn't like East Palo Alto, but I think East Palo Alto was like the murder capital. And back in like the early 90s or 80s, late 80s. So we kind of shared some of that, you know, like that, like that strife and whatnot.

00;03;52;16 - 00;04;09;05
John
So then kind of coming up, it wasn't so weird how it is now, right? Like you can't like, oh, there's we totally grew up in a, in a way. Like I talked to my neighbors one time and I was like, why did you have to speak that way? Like, why? What was the you guys could have told us, hey, don't use those specific words and all this stuff.

00;04;09;05 - 00;04;29;20
John
You know, the things I wouldn't say now, my adult, you're just being educated, like. But, you know, sometimes I slip up, but, so how that culminates into my art, I try to really delve into into the self, into who I am. And so like, you know, so there will be some works that you'll see. It's like super like, okay, this is like, you know, you see a nopal, you know, or a prickly pear.

00;04;29;22 - 00;04;47;21
John
You're like, that's totally about my culture, you know what I mean? Like, you see that in like, you know, I think of, like, the Mexican American flag with the eagle, right? Or just even, you know, if I'm making something about war, like, what's what's why am I making, like, this? You know, Ava B, you know, Bushmaster round.

00;04;47;21 - 00;05;09;07
John
You know what I mean? That's like explosive round. That's about the military, you know, or if it's about something that's like culminating between, you know, my my childhood, you know, like a Winnie the Pooh, you know, sculpture and how I can bring that into, you know, the current times and just speak about, like, the idea of me not knowing about the world and then just being introduced to that.

00;05;09;07 - 00;05;20;21
John
And what kind of shock value that gave to me and probably doesn't give it to other people. But anyways, yeah, sorry, I thought I was a little too much. That all together?

00;05;20;24 - 00;05;45;17
James
It's never too much when you're talking about, like, the space that you grew up in and there was violence that was in the vicinity. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And you're talking about this cultural background that you have with your family and the families that were in the neighborhood that you grew up in. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You then leave the space and you went into the armed services.

00;05;45;17 - 00;05;46;15
John
I did, yeah.

00;05;46;15 - 00;06;00;29
James
Was that is an escape from that neighborhood. Was that as a way for you to find yourself? Was that a chance to get an education? Yeah. What what took you from that point to armed services?

00;06;01;01 - 00;06;18;01
John
I mean, there's so many reasons. I mean, like, right. I mean, like, you kind of hit on a lot of them. It was just like either getting away from the neighborhood or even just getting away from what I thought was my neighborhood, what I thought was my life, and leaving the friends that I had, you know, and trying to, like, do something more for myself.

00;06;18;01 - 00;06;32;26
John
I couldn't see myself working at Starbucks, you know, my whole life. And when I did try to apply to other jobs with Starbucks, like three years experience a Starbucks or two years experience with like a whole bunch of other food experience to a corporate job, they weren't accepting me, just getting away from that and trying to improve my life.

00;06;32;26 - 00;06;47;29
John
You know? Also, just like all the benefits that came from it benefits that I kind of see, I kind of don't see because I got out with a general under honorable rather than honorable China, seek something bigger and better than me. It felt worthless doing what I was doing, you know?

00;06;48;00 - 00;06;52;29
James
Well, could it even be considered that you were creating a new you?

00;06;53;05 - 00;06;54;09
John
Yeah. I mean yes.

00;06;54;12 - 00;06;55;07
James
New artwork?

00;06;55;12 - 00;07;24;06
John
Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. No. Yeah, absolutely. I think it was creating a new me just from I wanted to meet new people. I wanted to see different things. And I wanted like, maybe, maybe I was wanting structure too. Right? It's like there's all these things that I didn't have, right? Like dad left out like, you know, around nine years old, kind of leaving like, like week to week or month to month, year to year, and then eventually, like, it was just me, like waving at him after not seeing them for like a year, just.

00;07;24;06 - 00;07;42;20
John
And he's driving his truck and I'm just, you know, on my skateboard and I'm like, dad, what's up bar? What's going on? You know? And so like, it was just like, maybe he was even trying to find a father figure kind of deal and and you really just made me like, learn it was. It wasn't like the best experience per se in the military, but it was definitely an experience.

00;07;42;20 - 00;08;07;14
John
It was very short, short lived too, you know, and but I'm super grateful for, like, learning all that because I wanted to I mean, like, again, wanted to see it, to see that world, but also wanting to use my experiences as like a voice, you know, for other people to learn from or to gain some type of knowledge or even just connect with humanity, you know, oddly, like going into politics, all these things or like, I don't know, like, you know, just.

00;08;07;17 - 00;08;12;20
James
Well, you say connecting with humanity and art does that.

00;08;12;23 - 00;08;13;12
John
It does.

00;08;13;13 - 00;08;24;10
James
Right? Art brings us to our human side. I want to stay on this path with the armed services for a second. I believe it was Marines. Yeah. Okay.

00;08;24;11 - 00;08;24;26
John
The United States.

00;08;24;26 - 00;08;27;09
James
Marine Corps and you were in Afghanistan.

00;08;27;13 - 00;08;37;14
John
I did, yeah I was in yes. Oh f 12.1 is what they that was like the title I you know what I mean? Like I think everyone gets like a different title. Yeah. I was in Afghanistan.

00;08;37;14 - 00;09;06;13
James
So I'm going to now jump forward because I had the privilege of seeing some of the sculpture that you created and some of the objects of art that seem to, from the front end, be telling us a story, but there felt to be more to them at least just the simple story and the one that moved me the most was your Christopher Robin piece.

00;09;06;13 - 00;09;13;08
James
Yeah. Can you describe that and talk us through that? And what got you there?

00;09;13;12 - 00;09;33;04
John
Totally. You know, so, you know, we're in Palo Alto right now, which is pretty funny. So my so my, my whole I mean it's like a long story. So it's fine. It's fine. Yeah. The time. So my mom had been cleaning houses for folks, you know, because you know, of course she's an immigrant. And you know, not only was she doing that, she was cleaning at night.

00;09;33;04 - 00;09;50;09
John
Whatever. But she like clean houses for folks here in Palo Alto. And I just remember going to their house, like, really young. I was like, 5 or 6. I was a sweet little kid, you know? I mean, I was always quiet and shy, but, you know, like, I was like, oh, you got that charm, too. You people would say, you know, their house was just filled with Winnie the Pooh.

00;09;50;12 - 00;10;13;04
John
I'm talking about, like from the China, the fine China, the fine bowls. Right. Like to like the glassware to the to the stuffed animals going on top of the stairs. And this was all like, like Wonderland to me, right? I mean, from the dirty house to this very clean house that my mom cleans up for and just seeing all that, you know, and I just remember even going into, Charles's like, study and just I remember, like, look at that.

00;10;13;04 - 00;10;28;00
John
We knew the poo. And then it studies right to the left and then this in his study, I remember just being like, it wasn't like dark or gloomy, but it was it had that like dark essence with like the dark oak wood. The books, the, the, the games on the table, you know what I mean? All these things.

00;10;28;00 - 00;10;44;27
John
So fast forward. Yeah. Let me get to the Winnie the Pooh. You know, I went I went into the military and, you know, the funny thing that people don't know is that, like, my, like, some of the people that mom cleaned houses for were part of the armed services, like Charles. Charles was, he was a pilot, you know, during Korea.

00;10;44;27 - 00;11;04;20
John
And I think Vietnam, too. It's just funny how that kind of connected. So when I decided to create this, we need the Pooh characters. I wanted to really give, like, what happened to me, or I wanted to give the shock. Yeah. Like the shock of seeing a dead body. You know, I decided to use the Winnie the Pooh characters just because I thought it would.

00;11;04;27 - 00;11;29;29
John
That would be interesting. You know, just to have, like, we need the Pooh, see a dead Christopher Robin, and then I try to, like, piece it together. Of course. He's talking about, like, my, my CEO, Christopher K Ravel, Colonel Christopher K rebel. You get promoted when you die. Yeah. Just like just thinking about his body, you know, being delivered basically by, like, six other Marines, having them on a stretcher and how he was like, you know, quickly breathing through the the claw.

00;11;30;00 - 00;11;45;15
John
But my initial shock of like, damn, who was that? You know, like, who could it have been? It was like, could have been like one of my close friends. But, you know, when we found out that it was like, you know, our lieutenant colonel, you know, our our commanding officer, it like it really hit me, I think, because I had just seen him like 2 or 3 hours ago.

00;11;45;15 - 00;12;03;29
John
And, you know, it was like a it was in passing, you know what I mean? I respected him, it's like it's rank. And, you know, I was like a E3, Lance corporal. Yeah. I just seen him three hours ago. And, you know, I was like, hey, sir, you know, because, like, we had that relationship where, like, I could, like, kind of be myself, but I, you know, I'm still like, I'm still like, oh, snap, that's the lieutenant colonel.

00;12;03;29 - 00;12;15;15
John
Like, you know what I mean? And, I was just like, oh, hey, sir, like, how's it going? You know, like, how's the day? How's the fly? He's like, hey, you know, just another day. Contreras. And so, you know, indeed, it was definitely not another day, you know?

00;12;15;15 - 00;12;36;17
James
So so you have this experience. You're in the middle of this war that people are dying and you are dealing with now the death of this individual. Yeah. Is using Christopher Robin and using Winnie the Pooh and those kinds of characters. Was that to take you back to a time that was safe?

00;12;36;20 - 00;12;53;27
John
Yes. Yes. No yes, yes and no. It was so I, I added those yes, I definitely added those elements. Like because when you watch like Winnie the Pooh, you know, they're just having like a good time in the woods, you know, saying like they're like Easter, like looking at like they call them Pooh sticks in the, in the, in the show.

00;12;53;27 - 00;13;26;15
John
Right. You know, they're like looking over in, they're like and looking at all the sticks float down and and you know, they're just going through like little things here and there. But it's so innocent, you know, it's like to the naked eye. Right? It's so innocent. It's it's just like beautiful childhood. He's imagining that Christopher is imagining. And so, when I decided to use that conjunction with, you know, Christopher laying down between my, rival Christopher, laying down that connection seemed to grow the more I studied into the actual creation of Winnie the Pooh, which is like A.A. Milne.

00;13;26;15 - 00;14;02;20
John
And then I think H.C. Hunter, who was the illustrator, and you're thinking about who those people were. And so it was really interesting to find out that they were veterans. And so once I once I saw that, I started like, really like because there was always this talk about like psychological elements or, like mental health, you know, within the characters, like, oh, like rabbit has OCD and like, you know, yours depressed, you know, Piglet is like anxiety and all these little things here and there, but like, but then realizing, like, you know, who A.A. Milne was, why he created the, you know, the 100 Acre Woods and Winnie the Pooh.

00;14;02;27 - 00;14;22;11
John
It was to help his actual son, Christopher Robin, understand the world after the events of World War one. Just thinking about that. And then now you're looking at the characters a lot differently because you're like, oh, interesting. Like, you know what was happening during World War One or even after World or One, like what was what was the feeling like?

00;14;22;11 - 00;14;38;29
John
You know, you had a lot of people like, sad or like depressed, you know, homeless veterans. You got your right and you have all these other things, like things that I was like, really look into, into like, you know, like Piglet, totally like soldiers. Half a leaf falls right by Piglet and it makes a certain noise or there's a shadow.

00;14;38;29 - 00;14;59;26
John
He's like, he's ready. He's like, on the ground shaking. You have, some of my other favorite one to talk about is like, you know, you have Tigger, and he's like, he's jumping all around. But once he gets sad. Oh my gosh, everyone stops, you know? And they're all like, it's crazy. Like, I think of, like the, the cartoon little movie that they had.

00;14;59;26 - 00;15;17;29
John
And like I think rabbit was like, that's right. You can't hop anymore, Tigger. Like if you hop, that's it. You said it, you promised it. And he's like, that means I can't. And like, he like it's the facial expressions. Like they they so kill you. But like, he's like, he's like on opioids. He's, you know, he's like, he's on uppers.

00;15;17;29 - 00;15;36;11
John
Right. And that was was happening during and after that time of war one. And you think of other characters right. It's really quick. It's like rabbit. You think of rabbits. Aren't rabbits abundance in in in colonies and things like that. But it's just a solo rabbit. Right. And then so they're like, they're so fixated on just gardening because maybe that's the only thing that keeps them calm.

00;15;36;11 - 00;15;56;05
John
Right. And then you have like Kanga and Roo, there's no dad. So it's like this whole veteran community within the story of Winnie the Pooh and how like, it just connects with the rest of the world and how you're supposed to, like, treat one another. It's it's so, so fascinating, right? Like, I don't know, I, I trip out thinking about it because I think of like new thing.

00;15;56;05 - 00;16;15;04
John
So I use Winnie the Pooh for me, you know, just because Christopher Robin saw him as a best friend. But I kind of saw like Christopher as like a friend, if not like, I know a higher up my lieutenant colonel, the commanding officer of the whole VMA 211. But it was the way he treated me and everyone else.

00;16;15;04 - 00;16;34;17
John
It was like, yeah, like there was a connection between the Pooh, of course. Like he has, like, traumatic brain injury. That's why he never really remembers, like certain sense. Sometimes I'll get that way if I'm like, overthinking. I'm like, man, what was I going to say? What was it like? You'll see Winnie the Pooh on the log. He's like, think, think, think, think, think I have to do this right?

00;16;34;18 - 00;16;41;02
John
Like he's like really trying to process his thoughts after, like, possibly like a traumatic event.

00;16;41;02 - 00;16;59;21
James
With these ideas that these characters have, these personality traits that you could see in your platoon and your group. Right? Right. That we can see throughout history, through the wars we've come through, that these are the effects of these people that are coming back.

00;16;59;21 - 00;17;00;24
John
Right? Right.

00;17;00;26 - 00;17;05;23
James
Was this piece something that you were doing as a healing process then?

00;17;05;23 - 00;17;31;09
John
Absolutely. I think I added like eucalyptus leaves just because, like, surrounding my, my neighborhood. You know, if you don't know the history of eucalyptus leaf, you can totally look that up. But, surrounding my whole neighborhood school was just these giant eucalyptus trees. And, like, if no one ever came to clean it up, you know, since it was, is these Menlo Park, so, like, you have, like, there's a bunch and we roll our bikes that are we run through them in like in the even just the dust left enough.

00;17;31;09 - 00;17;48;07
John
You can smell, you can smell that, you know. And so just to mix that, I wanted to kind of fool of course the viewer like when they came in they're like, oh, playing, you know what I mean? Like the smell threw you off, right? Because it's so like it's like woodsy, you know, it's like it means you can, like eucalyptus leaves.

00;17;48;07 - 00;18;03;09
John
I mean, I was like all these healing properties, right? Some people, you can cut a branch and hang it in your shower, have a steam eucalyptus shower, you know, and it like, does something to your senses and all these other things. But then there's like and there's some other undertones. Right. That, that kind of affect my life. Right.

00;18;03;09 - 00;18;18;04
John
Like such as, like, like colonization. Why do we bring these eucalyptus trees here? Right. There was a reason, because they were growing super fast and we thought we could build with them. But no, there's no way you can build them. And now they're like a hazard. It's like, you know, as soon as you light one up, they all light up.

00;18;18;05 - 00;18;35;05
John
So many negatives and your pros and cons to these things, right? But anyways, just going back to that, it was a way for me to explain to people like what happened to me. I think explaining it in the, in the eyes of a child as best as I could, my own personal eyes, was it was freeing. But there was.

00;18;35;05 - 00;18;38;13
John
There's always something missing, you know what I mean? There's always more that you can say.

00;18;38;13 - 00;19;03;05
James
And so that the audience has a visual of this. You did an installation of sculpture that was a Winnie the Pooh that stood 3.5ft tall. Four feet tall. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And he was looking down and there was a Christopher Robin, that was appropriately sized, but he was laying down.

00;19;03;05 - 00;19;04;07
John
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

00;19;04;09 - 00;19;21;18
James
And they were in this gallery space that you had covered the floor with those eucalyptus leaves. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But there was another object that was in this installation. Right. And this was the piece. Yeah. That brought it to you. What was that other object.

00;19;21;18 - 00;19;36;28
John
The other object. It was a it was a pop gun. Like an old wooden, like PVC pipe tied to like a, a string in the cord pop gun. And, you know, I got it. I got a couple of questions, like from that, they were like, oh, like, are they just playing or are they, you know, like, what?

00;19;37;01 - 00;19;55;24
John
What did he shoot himself? Did the Winnie the Pooh shoot him? Like. And I was like, oh, no. Like, you know, like I. Yeah. So it was so it was so funny because like, I think I had like a professor go in there with their kids and they even the kids were like, is something wrong with Christopher? Like, it feels so bad to like, you know.

00;19;55;24 - 00;20;23;27
James
Like, but there's a reality to what you presented. Yeah, yeah. And you made the comment that you wanted to use the child's story to make this approachable, right? Because there's a reality that is in this that you are dealing with that your compatriots in, in the service are dealing with right there are those individuals of family that lost people that are dealing with this.

00;20;24;02 - 00;20;24;22
John
Right? Right.

00;20;24;28 - 00;20;29;00
James
You chose a child's story to get the point to crossed.

00;20;29;02 - 00;20;29;29
John


00;20;30;02 - 00;20;38;11
James
Looking back, do you regret that because someone comes in and says oh was did did I read this wrong frame.

00;20;38;13 - 00;20;57;29
John
I don't I don't because like I think as an artist once you put something out in the world it's the worlds you know. And I can give my own piece to it. I think someone came up to me and they're like, you realize you cannot ever go to China. And I was like, why is I because people think Jingping is like a similar to we need the food.

00;20;58;01 - 00;21;19;21
John
And I just was like, yeah, I guess that that's not what I was going for. But yeah, I guess I can't go with the China, right? Like I can't do anything like that. But, no, but I don't, I don't regret using the, the children and I don't regret, like, putting the popcorn in there. And, the reason for that, I think, is because, you know, there's again, layers to this piece, right?

00;21;19;23 - 00;21;40;16
John
The whole issue between guns, gun violence in general. And so it's it's almost insane, to say. But the really harsh reality is like, you know, like you look at ghetto neighborhoods and there's guns everywhere. You know, people are shooting each other, killing each other. And then now suddenly we get people going into these schools and they're shooting people.

00;21;40;16 - 00;21;56;18
John
And it's, I hate to say, like, we kind of reap what we. So, you know what I mean? But it's it's fucked up, but it's the reality, you know what I mean? It's so harsh, you know, to think like, how we're, I was going to say program, but, like, how we're like, you know, led to believe that guns are programing.

00;21;56;23 - 00;21;57;06
John
Programing is.

00;21;57;06 - 00;22;19;22
James
Programing. I mean, we we are fed this stuff. We are repeatedly shown these things. And I'm not advocating that we need to get rid of violent video games and things like that. It's not that right. There is a reality that I live in my neighborhood in San Jose, downtown San Jose, and I'll hear gunshots and I bring the dogs in.

00;22;19;24 - 00;22;24;17
James
Yeah, it's like, okay, it's just a reality. I've been conditioned.

00;22;24;20 - 00;22;25;10
John
Right.

00;22;25;12 - 00;22;46;21
James
To put up with. Right? Right. I want to come back to the violence in a second, okay? Because I think it's a great path for the next part. But did this work that you created, this installation, these sculptures, did it help you heal through anything that you yourself experienced?

00;22;46;23 - 00;23;05;27
John
I would say yes. I would say it was. It was definitely a way to get a story out, you know, like a specific moment in time. It's like it's a yes. But I mean, I still got problems, you know, like, well, I still I, I, I still yeah, I feel like I, I have nightmares still, you know what I mean?

00;23;05;27 - 00;23;19;07
John
I, I, I hear the gunshots or like I'll, I'll, you know, 4th of July I'll hear, I'll hear the fireworks like it took so long for me to be like, okay, that's a firework. You know what I mean? Rather than be like, oh shit, you know what I mean? What was that? You know, waking up. Yeah. What was that?

00;23;19;08 - 00;23;37;10
John
You know what I mean? And now, like, I like to say, heal me. Yeah, it definitely gave me, like, an avenue to talk about my story and not have people so worried because I remember, like, trying to come back into society and telling everyone what happened. And I didn't know how to do it. Like, it's almost as if I lost my like I almost lost my charisma.

00;23;37;10 - 00;23;53;20
John
I would say like, because I have a lot of charisma, people used to be like, damn, you're a social butterfly. Like, how are you? How are you talking to this group? In that group, in this group, it it it it. But like when I came back, it's almost as if I didn't know how to communicate, right? So it was like, really hard for me to to end the conversation or like, talk about what I went through.

00;23;53;20 - 00;23;58;23
John
Because when I did talk about what I went through, people would be like, I'm so sorry. And I didn't know how to receive that.

00;23;58;25 - 00;24;06;03
James
It was. It is much that you didn't know how to communicate or the audience was uncomfortable with the topic.

00;24;06;06 - 00;24;08;03
John
Oh, it could have been it. Yeah, yeah.

00;24;08;04 - 00;24;28;19
James
Cause I know that, like, I went through cancer in my late 20s and you say the C-word and everyone goes ooh. And then they're like, oh yeah. And and they don't know how to talk about it. And so any time there's something like that and somebody brings it up that you know, they think it was them and their communication skills.

00;24;28;22 - 00;24;35;12
James
There could have been some of that. But I think the audience too has a hard time dealing with the reality.

00;24;35;15 - 00;25;00;28
John
Yeah, yeah. No, you have an excellent point. I mean, that's like with like almost anything is like significant, especially with cancer. Right? I mean, that's just like, I'm glad you're okay. You mean like she's like, because it's just it's just like that. That pains me, you know? And it's all about like, I guess, empathy. And I guess I just didn't feel like there were certain people who probably weren't as empathetic, but maybe they were know that was the best they can give me.

00;25;00;28 - 00;25;25;13
James
Right. It's jump to the to the the violence. Yeah. So you mentioned the neighborhood you grew up in. Violence. Yeah. You go off to the Afghan war. There's violence. Some of your other work, I mean all of your work is for me devastating and devastating in a great way because it causes me to face a reality that I don't see every day.

00;25;25;19 - 00;25;26;22
John
Right, right, right.

00;25;26;23 - 00;25;33;22
James
You did a piece that was the shells, right? Yeah. That you made a jacket.

00;25;33;25 - 00;25;52;11
John
Yeah. LA mode Americana, I think I called it that or I'm Americana. And so yeah, yeah even that that was, that was good. I like that piece a lot. And I always think about like kind of revisiting it like in terms of getting it the whole way through. But even the way it looks, I think I'm like, I'm satisfied with it.

00;25;52;13 - 00;26;00;05
James
So you literally designed a jacket. Yeah. That. You then sewed together, stitched together, glued together.

00;26;00;05 - 00;26;04;05
John
Sewed. Yeah, I sew, I sewed each individual like, shell round.

00;26;04;05 - 00;26;07;00
James
And how many shells were on there?

00;26;07;02 - 00;26;12;07
John
That's a really great question. I, I wasn't kind of, I wasn't counting I was just kind of like, oh, let's do.

00;26;12;07 - 00;26;14;04
James
It this way. How heavy is that bugger?

00;26;14;05 - 00;26;28;20
John
Oh, hell it was. Who is probably like, 5 to 10 pounds, I think I would say just like putting it on. I mean, I have to like, hang it with about, like, three hangers so it doesn't like, break. But no doubt that was it. Yeah. That one had a lot of, layers to it.

00;26;28;22 - 00;26;53;18
James
That was. Well, and it's interesting because I've always enjoyed conversations with you because you use the word layer. Yeah. And your work has a lot of layers, which is absolutely true. But when there is something like this that is clearly talking to violence, how does that work get received versus a piece that's got Winnie the Pooh in it?

00;26;53;20 - 00;27;24;01
John
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, it gets received a lot differently. I mean, it just does I mean, yeah, it does. Right? I mean, looking at the looking back at it and just thinking about how it looked hanging inside of, you know, at the ICA in San Jose, I was like, it was in the back. Yeah. It was, it was I started to like because it's so cynical because like, it was in the back, you know, and, it was in this beautiful pink room and like, you know, I just remember my monopoly's being in the front and then the kind of the bullet sweater being in the back, like you had to walk back there

00;27;24;01 - 00;27;42;02
John
just to see it. You know, a lot of people would just be like, man, it's so powerful, you know? And I remember James director there, he was like, you know, when when we're kind of sitting in the back of. He was like in tears explaining, explaining to me, like, you know, this, you know, you're such a great artist and like, this piece means so much because a lot of people want to ignore it, you know what I mean?

00;27;42;02 - 00;27;59;03
John
I think we go through our daily lives and, you know, and I felt that a lot growing up, right? Whenever I would ever bring something up that was like in high school, I was like on my like because I never met white people until high school. Right? But man, in high school, I was on them. I'd be like, man, this and this and this.

00;27;59;06 - 00;28;14;24
John
Don't you think about that and that and this. And like, they would be like, shut up, dude. Like, you know, you know, like it would for real. Like it would just be like, let's ignore him and. Yeah. And so yeah, I gets ignored. So like how it was received for lying. It's hard to it's hard to really capture that.

00;28;14;26 - 00;28;20;12
James
It's interesting. Right. Because like you said how we put our art out there. Yeah. And it's out.

00;28;20;12 - 00;28;21;16
John
There. Yeah.

00;28;21;19 - 00;28;38;08
James
When you get a response like James Leventhal. Yeah. Where he has been moved to emotion. How does that make you feel in kind of like did I do it right. Yeah. Am I on the right path. Yeah.

00;28;38;08 - 00;28;52;07
John
Yeah. In retrospect yeah. I mean like when he told me I think I was going through my own little mood, I get moody, but I was going through my moods. And so I was just like, really? You know, I always look people in the eye, like, especially if they're like, angry or like, crying. So, like, it made me feel like.

00;28;52;07 - 00;29;09;25
John
Yeah, like I was on the right path. Like what I'm doing is, is significant. And it's not just like a single entity experience or like a single culture experience. Like it could be black. Now it's like black Mexican brown, right? Or like, you know, why? It's like it's happening almost all over the world. Like you kind of hear about it on a daily.

00;29;09;25 - 00;29;26;28
John
And, it's funny, you know, that we're bringing this letter up because like, when I wrote it, I wrote like this beautiful piece. I wrote this excellent piece and like, man, like, I really like I threw everything into it, right? I was like, man, like thinking about a sweater, right? Like, what is a sweater? Something that keeps you warm.

00;29;26;28 - 00;29;44;18
John
Something that keeps you so safe, something that. And then thinking about, like people who have died wearing these, you know, a black sweater, you know, like, did their mom wash it, right? You know, their mom, like, you know, washed it, got the stain. Whatever stains out, put it in the dryer. It probably smells so fresh. And so, like, you know, it just reminds you of home.

00;29;44;19 - 00;30;05;07
John
Thinking about, like, a woman's touch. Right? And then also now, in contrast with this hot machine made, you know, like bras, right, like, attached to it and what, how heavy it is compared to the sweater. Right. Like, you think of, like, people sewing the sweater together and washing it. Right. It's like it's like hands. But then how you thinking about production?

00;30;05;07 - 00;30;26;13
John
You think about machines pounding and, you know, all these noises and stuff like that, and only to think like, man, like my kid might not come home tonight kind of deal. Right? Because of these two factions that meet up and they creates like a dead body or it's from a renegade sweater or two. And like, we wore that a lot and like the hood and stuff like that, as all I remember, I remember having, like, renegade sweaters and like, they would always fade.

00;30;26;13 - 00;30;40;26
John
They were like from Walmart and things like that. But I remember writing that piece and like, I was so in love with my writing in that piece and like what I said, I said what I needed to say, and I think I got like a B-plus for it. And I was just like, man, that's 80.

00;30;40;29 - 00;30;43;11
James
So she like, I put my whole.

00;30;43;11 - 00;30;51;17
John
Heart into the painstaking of the sewing the bullets over, drilling the holes into them, collecting them even from a gun range.

00;30;51;24 - 00;30;56;11
James
Right. Did you even get in trouble for having the shells in the gallery?

00;30;56;17 - 00;30;59;15
John
Not. Not ICA, you know, and, it's.

00;30;59;15 - 00;31;04;06
James
Funny because they tell us that art has no rules, right? Right. But it does.

00;31;04;06 - 00;31;07;01
John
It does in schools, in academia. And yeah, academia.

00;31;07;01 - 00;31;08;09
James
Does in architecture.

00;31;08;10 - 00;31;23;17
John
For sure. And like I think it's just scary to people. But I also think it's like, again, one of those things where it's like, you can't ignore it because the minute you ignore it, it's it happens. And then what? And now you're, you're faced with all these like motion.

00;31;23;17 - 00;31;41;02
James
You're giving them an opportunity to, to look at a reality that might not be something that's there daily, but at some point in time they're going to run into someone that that is their daily. Exactly or it will become theirs, you know, God forbid. Yeah.

00;31;41;02 - 00;31;41;19
John
Got to be.

00;31;41;26 - 00;32;10;17
James
With these different pieces, the, the violence, the the area you grew up. Yeah. The safe environment that you felt in those warm library and the skies house. Yeah, yeah. How do you balance your art between personal expression and these broader issues that you address with the the war piece or the violence with these other pieces?

00;32;10;19 - 00;32;29;07
John
I mean, man, I just, I mean, you know, of have found it balance with them and just like my daily kind of life. Right, man. Some I mean, there are times where I find myself thinking that to me, I mean, I'm like, how do I do it? And when I do, though, I get so down, you know, and I, you know, I, I am in therapy.

00;32;29;07 - 00;32;51;29
John
I think I've been in therapy since like 2015 and it's always on and off. But like for sure lately just going a lot more and then thinking about these, you know, things every now and then. Right. Like either not friends but like acquaintances that I see like grow up and then they're just they're gone. They're dead or even like, you know, a personal friend of mine, just like committing suicide.

00;32;52;01 - 00;33;11;05
John
That happened, during the beginning of graduate school. And I was just like, hush, hush about it because, like, it, you know, it kind of hurt. You know? I was kind of mad. You get mad, you get sad, right? You get it, like. And then you have you really good days, you know, where everything's working out, you know, I'll go to the gym, you know, I'll do that.

00;33;11;05 - 00;33;30;25
John
I try to stay, like, as fit as possible to kind of mellow everything that happened. But now I have my problems, man. Like, you know, I just try to keep super calm about it and really, think about the things that I'm grateful for. Like, I'm really lucky at the end of the day, like, you know, everything that I survived and again.

00;33;30;25 - 00;33;52;02
John
Yeah, like to balance it, it's it's daunting. But but they're in my they live in my work. Right. So they're always like something that I can compartmentalize if I'm saying that. Right. But like into, like stories, you know, like this is why I did this because I was feeling this way about this particular situation. And that's kind of how it's always been with a lot of my pieces.

00;33;52;06 - 00;33;54;06
John
I'm sorry. I don't know if I answer that. Right. Well, sorry.

00;33;54;09 - 00;34;01;22
James
There's no there's no right or wrong answer then does your does that have your work being therapeutic?

00;34;01;22 - 00;34;24;15
John
Absolutely. Oh yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. No it's it's so therapeutic. Especially when I'm talking about these things and especially when I have time would have time to make these things right. And that's what, like, grad school really helped me think, especially Covid, I guess. I know everyone hates Covid. I think Covid was a time for thinking and not making, you know, so much a lot of people were able to make.

00;34;24;15 - 00;34;33;20
John
I wouldn't doubt that. But I think like during Covid, I really sat down with the idea like, yeah, I wonder what could I, what could I do with that? You know, uncovered.

00;34;33;20 - 00;34;40;17
James
Gave us isolation and gave us loneliness and gave us all of these things that messes with people's mental health?

00;34;40;17 - 00;34;41;15
John
Yes it does.

00;34;41;15 - 00;34;51;06
James
And, you know, I realize I'm a different person today. Than who I thought I was coming into Covid.

00;34;51;06 - 00;34;52;09
John
Yeah. Yeah yeah yeah.

00;34;52;09 - 00;35;12;20
James
Yeah. And so you know it's it's interesting because art can be therapeutic. It can help us through these things. Your stories are giving us that. And you're also talking about how those pieces have a bit of you in them. Like it's it's your release of this. You're putting that in there.

00;35;12;21 - 00;35;13;20
John
Right, right, right, right.

00;35;13;21 - 00;35;44;09
James
What happens when it's not received? Like, let's go back to the Winnie the Pooh and Christopher Robin. Yeah. And if that were to be installed again, and it was in a space that you weren't there. To walk the audience through what were your feeling be if it was misconstrued like some of the kids that came in and said, oh my God, did Pooh just kill Christopher.

00;35;44;13 - 00;36;08;03
John
Yeah. I, I, I welcome those, I just welcome it I just and I and I'm fine with it, you know, because I have no control. I have no control. It's all whatever people thing. It's all on the internet, right. Or like it's all like in the public space I don't think. Yeah. Again like I said, I, I'm, I'm happy to, to let go of things, you know, and also like but keep a little bit at the same time.

00;36;08;03 - 00;36;14;07
John
Right. Like, you know if someone were to tell me, oh, this is about this and this and this and this and I'll, I'll sit there and listen. I'll be like, yeah.

00;36;14;10 - 00;36;45;19
James
The work that I do, I don't see it that it's based in the LGBT community like that isn't my mindset, but because I'm in that community, people want to hang that tag on there. Your work feels almost like a gentle activist in a way. Even though you may use the bullets even though you may use violence is a piece of it.

00;36;45;22 - 00;36;53;07
James
If you were to be labeled activist, is that okay for you. Do you see yourself as an activist.

00;36;53;09 - 00;37;15;22
John
I can see that. I would I would say activists are doing a lot more than me. I want to say that because, like, I know I can only give a piece, but there's activists working like day in day night, like, you know, like losing sleep, like just working for nonprofits, just like just doing the work, you know? And it's so it's so important.

00;37;15;22 - 00;37;37;11
John
So. Yeah, so, so some of it is like very much activist style for sure. Because like, I want to talk about these things again, just going back to like how would people receive it? I want to have those conversations. I want to be that, you know, I think of it as like doors, right? Like I want to be that open door to those specific conversations of, well, man, I lost a brother to this.

00;37;37;11 - 00;37;59;06
John
And oh, man, this is like, you know, this reminds me of this. And I'm like, oh, really? Like, tell me more, you know, because I want to I want to hear your experience because it's it's almost a shared experience that we're all having. Right. It's like I always bring up that logic. Audre Lorde quote, and it might not be seen as the same as other people, but for me, what I, you know, gravitated towards is like, you know, we we do not you know what?

00;37;59;09 - 00;38;20;12
John
How did it go? There's no such thing as a single issue struggle because we do not live single issue lives. And how I got that, I was like, man, like your problem is my problem. I want to try to figure it out with you, or I want to at least talk about talk about it with you, because I feel like that's just brings us into that connective sphere, you know, of, of, like, sharing those empathetic moments.

00;38;20;12 - 00;38;40;01
John
Right? Like you, you talking about cancer, right? Like on my. Damn. I'm hella happy you're here. You know what I mean? Like, and just like all these things, you know, like, you know, that that people would like to share with me. Yeah. I mean, and it's been around for a while, like the whole therapy thing. I just feel like what I'm presenting is, like, forgotten knowledge a lot of the time.

00;38;40;01 - 00;39;05;20
John
Like, I was looking like deep into the into my hip, you know, like, it's a research and just thinking about, like, how Greeks and Romans, like, you know, they thought, what did they do after the wars? They would have like festivities that would showcase actual soldiers, you know, giving theatrical. There were acting out scenes from the war. And so when they were doing that, it was giving the public a or the people, the society, a reflection of what they went through.

00;39;05;20 - 00;39;21;12
John
So that way, you know, if they did see them, like struggling in the streets, like it's not that they didn't pay no mind, but they understood. You think about now, right? It's totally it wasn't like that. Right. Like somehow society forgot that or it's been skewed to a point where, like Vietnam soldiers are getting spit on all these things.

00;39;21;12 - 00;39;26;26
John
It wasn't a celebration, but like, we we were ignoring these, like, key factors as well.

00;39;26;26 - 00;39;30;18
James
It's like we want to forget what we don't like.

00;39;30;24 - 00;39;31;21
John


00;39;31;28 - 00;39;47;14
James
And it causes us to be more about our need and not your need. And you know it's unfortunate because it causes empathy to start to die. And I think that's where we lose our humanity.

00;39;47;16 - 00;40;03;23
John
Yeah definitely. Right. Yeah I mean and funny you say it's funny. Yeah I mean like and I feel so bad for those soldiers who were you know, they always got spit on. I got spit on once, you know, at a party or just saying like, oh yeah, I'm a I'm a veteran. Yeah, yeah. Because like, one of my friends brought it up and then like, you know, they were like, who?

00;40;03;26 - 00;40;23;27
John
And they're like, oh yeah, him. I was like, oh, yeah. You know, I was in the Marine Corps. I'm hit sitting there hitting the, you know, a joint with the beer in my hand, you know what I mean? And they do spits on me. And I was just like, what's, you know, like, holy shit, you know? And I just remember, like, my friend being like, hey, man, you tell me what you want to do and we'll do it.

00;40;24;02 - 00;40;28;01
John
And I was like, no, it's fine. I just grabbed it like a napkin. I just wiped it all off, you know?

00;40;28;01 - 00;40;51;05
James
And. And what's wild is that, you know, you. And thank you for your service and your sacrifice that you gave the freedoms that we all enjoy in this country. We can continue to enjoy. And I think that's the thing. Right? And it's like, well, you know, you need to understand that you as this person needs to understand that you as the soldier.

00;40;51;07 - 00;40;53;23
James
Aren't the one responsible. Right.

00;40;53;25 - 00;41;18;23
John
No. Absolutely. I mean it's all I guess like going back to it. Yeah. Like we don't, we don't know what we're getting ourselves into a lot I think. And until like and I think maybe as a whole society. Right. Maybe we all have this like, cognitive dissonance about, like our, ourselves, the history that's led us up to our current event, you know, or to our current time and date and or second year and living.

00;41;18;23 - 00;41;37;04
John
Right. Like, we don't we don't know these things. And like, when we get reminded, we said, like we might have an outburst or like we get angry and, you know, as what you see a lot with like a bunch of college kids, right? It's like, you know, they're in this like, nice little bubble at home. They're like in high school, living the time of.

00;41;37;04 - 00;41;38;28
James
Their lives, and they love it.

00;41;38;28 - 00;41;49;13
John
And then they go to college and they read about, like, you know, the patriarchy. And then it's like fucking time to shave my head, you know what I mean? Which is cool. Like, yeah, dude, do your thing because that's, you know, that's how you're going to get out.

00;41;49;18 - 00;42;12;06
James
Well, and it's interesting because, you know, I've made some pieces that they come to me and they're like, are you okay? Yeah. Are you angry? Yeah. I'm like, yes. You realize that every piece I make isn't an autobiography? Yeah, yeah. There are some of my works that are absolutely that. But many of them, most of them are not right.

00;42;12;06 - 00;42;32;23
James
They are like what you are doing. Their stories in reality that may have been forgotten. Yeah. No one has remembered or have heard. And being able is an artist to come in and make sure that story stays out there is really important.

00;42;32;25 - 00;42;52;27
John
I always try to do like art pieces to where it's like, you know, one for you, one for me. But like there's always like me, me, me, me, me and and here's you and then me, me, me, me. See. But sometimes it might be you, you, you, you know, you. And by you I mean like here's, here's this for society, you know, like, it has nothing to do with me, but like, it's almost hard to kind of I mean, we get all philosophical about it, right?

00;42;52;27 - 00;43;15;12
John
It's like, well, everything is about you personally before it comes out because, you know, abcde e but like, even with, like my art piece, like the screwball, when I made that, I was, I think I was so angry with like, I think the education system and like my academia, they were always telling me research and then make research and then make.

00;43;15;12 - 00;43;30;05
John
And I was like, I just want to make. Can I just make? And then research later and they're like, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. And I was like, okay, I'm going to make a screw going through a ball, because I just imagine that the other day. And I was like, I want to see it in physical form.

00;43;30;07 - 00;43;38;17
John
And then when I made it, I was like, screwball, you know what I mean? Like that's that. Yes, yes. And then that, that came after. Right?

00;43;38;18 - 00;43;52;06
James
I was lucky enough to actually curate that into a show. Yeah, yeah. Which was amazing because here literally it's a sculpture. It's this pressure. It's it's in an acrylic box. It's like a collectible.

00;43;52;06 - 00;43;52;18
John
Yes.

00;43;52;18 - 00;43;58;22
James
And it is a baseball with a screw through it. Yeah. So what came to you after?

00;43;58;23 - 00;44;16;21
John
What came after that was just this whole idea of people were like, oh, it's like play, you know, because it's like playing baseball. But just like thinking about the history. Of course, with baseball, it's America's pastime. It's like it's still going on to this day. And, you know, just thinking about that culture. Yeah, I thought about baseball. What else did I think about?

00;44;16;24 - 00;44;32;17
John
You know, the drink screwball thought about the actual throw a screwball and how that kind of just like it just, you know, it's just a nasty. Yeah. It's so nasty. Like, you see it. You just. It just goes up and down, like you're like, whoa, what the hell just happened? You know? And it's like something so particular.

00;44;32;20 - 00;44;49;29
James
Yeah. And it's, it's it's the sort of piece to that. You were making a commentary with it. I mean, it's clear you were making a commentary. Oh, yeah. Yeah. But I love that it was an open ended commentary and that it could have been interpreted 50 different ways.

00;44;50;00 - 00;44;51;19
John
Yeah, yeah. You know, and.

00;44;51;24 - 00;44;53;08
James
Yeah, it was such a great piece.

00;44;53;08 - 00;44;59;20
John
I love that it was. Yes, I still have it too. It's like it's a, it's like it's on my desk. And I always look at it and I'm like, yeah.

00;44;59;22 - 00;45;22;08
James
But that was the thing, right? There's these objects that get created and you, I think it was brilliant on your part that it's the size of a baseball. Yeah. And we have these people in our society that collect these signed baseballs. I have like three of them. Yeah. And they're in these acrylics and they're on this place of, you know, honor.

00;45;22;09 - 00;45;27;26
James
And we look at it and you've got it on your desk and you're looking at it. Yeah, I think that's marvelous.

00;45;27;26 - 00;45;29;05
John
Yeah, yeah. Right on. Oh, yeah.

00;45;29;05 - 00;45;53;13
James
Thank you John. Thank you. I we have been all over the place tonight and I think it's been great, but I want to close off with this. Yeah. If, if there's somebody that's out there that has traumas that has maybe something they need therapy with. Do you have any words of advice for them, how art can play for them, maybe similar to what it did for you?

00;45;53;14 - 00;46;13;13
John
Yeah, I would say just just go right into it. I mean like art, however you're feeling, you know, in a, in a particular moment, you either create that art piece or just get into the arts, because I feel like the arts have such an open it's an open community. I mean, you get everyone you know, you get everyone in the arts.

00;46;13;13 - 00;46;35;26
John
And it's not it doesn't like exclude you. Am I exclude your particular art making. But like it's definitely not going to exclude you. Don't be afraid to to just do. Yeah, just make art, man. Make art and don't. And you don't have to be so specific that, you know, there's plenty of artists out there who say, you know, I make art for everyone and there's other artists.

00;46;35;26 - 00;46;51;24
John
You're like, I make artwork about immigrants in the fields that are making it, you know, making our food. And that's so important, you know, and you're like, damn, that's. And even if you want to make art for everyone, yeah, that's that's totally fine too. You just got to find your your path. Your path is going to go, haywire at first.

00;46;51;24 - 00;47;11;08
John
And you you're going to get uncomfortable. You might lose a couple hair follicles. You know that I've lost somehow. You you might gray out a little bit, but at the end of the day, I mean, you you're going to be an artist. And, you know, I would say just create it and share it. So that way people or even just keep it to yourself and maybe some of my find it later down, you know.

00;47;11;11 - 00;47;12;20
James
Puts it out there in the world.

00;47;12;20 - 00;47;31;07
John
Puts it out there in the world and yeah, and go to therapy. And whether that therapy be like, you know, your your friend or your, you know, your, your colleague, our work or you know, yeah, religion or baseball, go to a baseball game and chop it up with somebody. Right. You really get to find out more about yourself the more you open yourself out into the world.

00;47;31;10 - 00;47;33;06
James
But John, thank you. I appreciate the time.

00;47;33;12 - 00;47;37;03
John
Thank you. I appreciate you for sure.

00;47;37;05 - 00;48;06;03
James
Thank you for joining us for this moving episode of Lattes & Art, presented by J-Squared Atelier, a big thank you to John Joseph Contreras Romero for his powerful insights into how art can serve as both a reflection and a remedy for trauma. We hope this conversation inspires you to think about the ways art can heal, whether it's on canvas, in a sketchbook, or simply through creative expression in your daily life.

00;48;06;06 - 00;48;32;07
James
If you or someone you know is struggling with mental health challenges or thoughts of suicide, please know that you are not alone. We've included links to helpful resources in the episode notes. Don't hesitate to reach out. Don't forget to subscribe and follow us for more discussions on the intersection of life and creativity. Until the next time, stay curious, stay inspired, and keep creating.