Faces of Strength: Celebrating Women Through the Power of Portraiture

This episode explores the transformative power of portraiture in telling women's stories. We will discuss how portraits capture the essence, strength, and diversity of women's experiences, and how this art form has been used historically and in contemporary times to challenge stereotypes, empower individuals, and create lasting impact. We'll chat with Susan Harding, who use an interdisciplinary/mixed media approach to portraiture to celebrate and amplify women's voices, delving into her creative process and the unique challenges and rewards of capturing the spirit of womanhood through the lens.

To learn more about Susan and her art practice, you can find here work here:
Susan Harding Photography

Guest:  Susan Harding
             @susan_harding_artographer
              https://www.susanharding.photography/ 
Icon 📸: Suszi Lurie McFadden
                 @suzmcfaddenphoto
                                        

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Transcript

00;00;03;13 - 00;00;38;16
James
Welcome to Lattes & Art, presented by J-Squared Atelier. The podcast for creativity, brews, connections and deeper conversations. I'm your host, James William Moore, and today we're exploring the transformative power of portraiture and telling women's stories not just the joyful ones, but the complex, challenging, and even traumatic experiences that shape who women are. Our guest today is Susan Harding, an artist whose interdisciplinary and mixed media approach to portraiture gives voice to these nuanced stories.

00;00;38;18 - 00;01;10;24
James
Through her work, she not only celebrates womanhood, but also addresses the layers of trauma and healing that often remain unspoken through her artistic process. She seeks to create space for dialog, reflection, and healing. So let's get started. Today, I'm thrilled to have one of my favorite people with me to chat. Susan is this incredible photographer that does portraiture and welcome Susan.

00;01;10;24 - 00;01;12;22
James
And I can't wait to get into this with you.

00;01;12;23 - 00;01;17;15
Susan
Thank you. I, I with that introduction, I feel like I have a lot of pressure now.

00;01;17;17 - 00;01;22;00
James
No pressure to be amazing. You come by that naturally.

00;01;22;03 - 00;01;26;11
Susan
Oh, this is why we're friends.

00;01;26;14 - 00;01;45;09
James
The idea of portraiture has this big history. Like, we have these artists all through the ages that have been doing portraiture. What is it about right now that you're doing portraiture? Why? What drew you to this?

00;01;45;12 - 00;02;13;01
Susan
I think I think I've always been attracted to portraiture. Drawn, compelled to make pictures of people, images of people. I think that I, I, my father was a landscape photographer. And so I felt like that's what I was supposed to do. But I noticed as I went along that all my images had people in them. And I like to have people in them because I think it it feels warmer and more welcoming or something.

00;02;13;01 - 00;02;47;22
Susan
I don't know, I can't, describe that, but but I think for me, the, the series that I'm working on right now and the way that I'm working with portraiture right now is to to tell stories about people and, portraiture for me, I think in particular, the kind that I'm doing, I think is important right now because because we all have trauma and we all have flaws, and we all have things about us that we don't like, but other people see us differently, maybe, and sometimes more critically and sometimes more gently.

00;02;47;24 - 00;03;07;08
Susan
And so what I'm trying to do is take a critical look at us as human beings, a through a gentle lens so that we, are able to open up dialog about the critical things. But, recognize also that everybody has these traumas or flaws.

00;03;07;10 - 00;03;15;04
James
But your work is kind of specific to, is it not? Are you not just doing portraits of women right now?

00;03;15;07 - 00;03;49;13
Susan
Yes, I am, I am right now. I am just doing women. And I feel like for me, it's important to do a women's portraiture right now because women are often at, historically pushed to the side, or viewed through the lens, the masculine lens. You know, we think about, paintings, like odalisque where, you know, she's on the, the chaise lounge and, you know, we're looking down on her and it's very seductive.

00;03;49;13 - 00;04;11;10
Susan
And I think that often that that's the way that women are portrayed. And you know, some of us are like that. Some of us want to be portrayed as seductive and we want to feel, attractive and sexy in that kind of way. But that's not everybody that's not. And, and, and I think that being seductive through the lens of a woman is really much different than through the lens of a man.

00;04;11;12 - 00;04;33;21
Susan
So for me, that's why I find it important to, why I feel compelled, driven to work on this series that I call the viewer. Because I think it's important for women to both be seen and to feel seen and to, be seen in ways that they want to be seen, not in the ways that the world wants to see them.

00;04;33;24 - 00;04;45;27
James
Well, it's interesting because as you were starting to explain, the ideas behind the portraiture that you're looking at is addressing some of the traumas that these individuals have gone through.

00;04;46;00 - 00;04;46;26
Susan
Right.

00;04;46;28 - 00;04;56;25
James
And you talked about how a male lens is different and that it's more from an objective vacation of whatever that is.

00;04;56;25 - 00;04;58;14
Susan
Typically not always.

00;04;58;15 - 00;05;02;17
James
Not always. Yes. I typically generalized on that. Yes.

00;05;02;20 - 00;05;05;15
Susan
I do too, though I do too. So I just want to make sure.

00;05;05;18 - 00;05;26;23
James
I enjoy how you has used, like some of us want to be pretty, some of us some want to be seductive. And that's inherent that we're all that already, these portraits that you're doing, you're kind of peeling that layer off and looking a little closer at the person, are you not?

00;05;26;25 - 00;05;52;15
Susan
Oh, definitely. Definitely. I definitely want to try and and I think kind of circling back to the original question, I feel like I started this this particular series when all my life I've worn baggy clothes and dark clothes and tried to hide and be inconspicuous because I didn't like the attention that I got from men in particular.

00;05;52;18 - 00;06;13;06
Susan
And then, you know, we went into Covid and I came, I emerged from Covid in this menopausal body, and instead of an hourglass figure, I had this menopause girdle that replaced it. And then I was all of a sudden invisible. So, you know, before where, you know, I was getting the catcalls and, whistles and what have you.

00;06;13;07 - 00;06;41;08
Susan
Then the doors were slammed in my face, and all of a sudden, you know, now I'm saying, but wait, I still want to be seen, you know, I just don't want to see me that way. And so it occurred to me that perhaps other people felt the same way. And so I started talking to people and I discovered that some of the traumas that I have that, for the purposes of this, conversation, we'll, we'll set aside.

00;06;41;08 - 00;06;58;14
Susan
But some of the traumas that I had, other people had those same traumas. And so then I wondered how, how do these traumas inform who we are as people? And knowing what my traumas were and why I hid, why I didn't want to be seen. How did that inform who I am as a person and how I carry myself?

00;06;58;21 - 00;07;21;27
Susan
How I present myself to the world? And how does that translate to other people? You know, do we speak the same language in that? And can I find other people who speak the same language? I think, and I found it really important to not just be superficially beautiful, you know, take pictures that are pretty, because I think that that doesn't tell the whole story the way that we want to present ourselves to the outside.

00;07;21;29 - 00;07;44;07
Susan
I put together a questionnaire that was just a loose questions that I might ask somebody, and then met with them and talked, the first several people that I, that I worked on the series with, I talk to them about, you know, what made them feel beautiful and what made them feel unattractive. And where do they think that came from?

00;07;44;07 - 00;08;14;27
Susan
Where do their why or do they think their ideas were forms? And then as I'm talking with people, I'm exposing my flaws and my skeletons that I have in the closet. I don't know, skeletons probably isn't the right words, but you know that the trauma that happened to me, that I keep hidden in my little box where nobody can see so many of those women have the same little boxes full of trauma that they were hiding and protecting, and it manifests a different in the way that they present to themselves.

00;08;15;00 - 00;08;30;29
Susan
You know, unlike me, where, you know, more flamboyant and more bold because they want to take control. And so I found it really interesting in talking to these women about their ideas, how they did that.

00;08;31;02 - 00;08;36;24
James
You're talking about these individuals and the traumas they're going through, and how there were some that were similar to your own.

00;08;36;24 - 00;08;37;10
Susan
Right.

00;08;37;13 - 00;08;48;14
James
It feels to me that you're creating a space for these stories to exist, regardless of whoever experiences it.

00;08;48;17 - 00;09;15;15
Susan
Is that that's my goal. I mean, that's what I hope for in the series, that I can create a space. And I found every single woman who, without fail, who I've gone through the process with because we have to be, I mean, there's there's a lot of layers to it. They have to one be comfortable enough to expose themselves to me about what their real flaws are and where these ideas come from.

00;09;15;22 - 00;09;38;02
Susan
So they have to be comfortable enough to me to be bare. You know, whether that means with no clothes on or just their essence of who they are to be exposed, because it's a very vulnerable process that we go through. So, so they have to be comfortable enough with me for that. They also have to be comfortable enough to allow their story to be told.

00;09;38;09 - 00;10;04;27
Susan
Every single woman without fail has told me that they feel like going through the process was the best therapy they've ever had, and it is for me too. I found it to be. I mean, I can't put myself in their their body and know how they feel, but for me, I think it was more healing for me because when I learned I'm not alone and and because I learned I'm not alone, I feel even more compelled, more driven to continue the series.

00;10;05;03 - 00;10;23;29
Susan
Somebody asked me, I'm just going to circle back for a second, because this is how I talk in circles. But somebody asked me one time, why are you so interested in telling women's stories? Because, you know, the feminist movement and, you know, we're so far advanced and you know, all the things like we're on equal playing ground now.

00;10;23;29 - 00;10;46;16
Susan
And first of all, we are not. But but second of all, I think that I felt so alone in the situation that I was in. I felt so alone and so isolated in my own trauma box that I felt afraid to talk about what happened to me. I just thought I was alone and I didn't know who to talk to or how to talk about it.

00;10;46;16 - 00;11;15;03
James
In the woman's experience, which obviously I'm not able to speak from, but I've had many friends that have come to me and opened up to me, and I can only imagine one how hard that is to open up to someone else. When you're talking about a victimization, a trauma, a situation that isn't safe, any of these kinds of things, but then suddenly being in that group and realizing you're not alone.

00;11;15;08 - 00;11;33;17
Susan
Yeah, yeah. And that's why I feel more compelled to do it, because I think that there's so many people who are still stuck in that box, and I'm only freshly released from the box, you know, to realize that I'm not alone. Only because for whatever reason it was, I felt compelled to do this series. And, you know, maybe it was because I wanted to get out of the box.

00;11;33;17 - 00;11;38;17
Susan
Maybe it was because for selfish reasons that I wanted to. And that's possible.

00;11;38;18 - 00;11;45;24
James
Well, you did something really interesting when we were going through Covid, and you were doing your porch portraits.

00;11;45;25 - 00;11;46;29
Susan
Yes, yes, yes.

00;11;47;06 - 00;11;55;05
James
And I love this idea that you were trying to find a connection through an isolating time.

00;11;55;09 - 00;11;56;13
Susan
Yeah, yeah.

00;11;56;20 - 00;12;04;20
James
And now you've gone another step. You know, we're not isolated socially as much unless we choose to be.

00;12;04;20 - 00;12;05;14
Susan
Right. Right.

00;12;05;14 - 00;12;22;24
James
But you're now taking that story and bringing new light to it and new voice. And I think it's amazing that you allow this opportunity for others to share in that experience. You used the word feminism.

00;12;22;26 - 00;12;23;07
Susan
Yeah.

00;12;23;08 - 00;12;35;10
James
The feminist art movement. And I want to just ask a question. Do you feel this work is part of that movement or do you think it's something different.

00;12;35;13 - 00;13;11;29
Susan
You know I think that the, the f word is a really scary word to use. Do I feel like I'm part of the movement? I hope so, I really, really hope so. Because, you know, I, I, I, I personally believe, you know, having lived in this body that I've, I've lived in all my life and, and presenting as a system woman and a lesbian, you know, I just need to add that part in there because I think it's an important part of who I am and an important part of, you know, another one of those things that fit into that trauma box that, you know, I was 30 before I realized that I'm not

00;13;11;29 - 00;13;34;24
Susan
alone on that because I thought it was alone. I thought I was the only one that existed back in the day, you know, before we had all the representation on TV and radio and wherever walking down the street, right, expressing themselves. I didn't have that. So I thought that I was alone. I thought there was something wrong with me, you know, was feminism that pushed that forward.

00;13;34;24 - 00;13;57;24
Susan
I think, to, you know, among other things. And I don't want to say it was just feminism that did. But I think feminism was a a pushing force to allowing women to, cook in the kitchen and be a homemaker or be a chef or be a lawyer or a doctor. And I think that we've come a long way, baby, but we still have a long way to go.

00;13;57;26 - 00;14;28;11
Susan
I think we still have a long way to go. And I think that now it's kind of the little things, like the smaller stories, not, you know, women who feel like, you know, this is who I think I'm supposed to be, and and I'm not. So what is wrong with me or you know, this happened to me, you know, late at night in when I was walking down the streets, this traumatic event happened, which, you know, I'm not going to talk about, but I think we can all imagine what those kind of events might be, you know?

00;14;28;11 - 00;14;52;12
Susan
And. And why do I deserve that? What did I do to create that? And I think that that's the one thing that I want to change as I do this series, is it's not the woman's fault. It's not a woman's fault. To curb the, the urges of of a man. It's not a woman swaps your dress in certain ways that make them not be attracted to her.

00;14;52;15 - 00;15;03;22
Susan
You know, it's not my responsibility to to to carry myself in a way that doesn't get me raped. And so I think that that for me, and that's probably the driving force behind the series.

00;15;03;22 - 00;15;23;16
James
I'm hearing what you're saying, and I love that it fills in some space for me. Having been someone that got to see your show that you had up, that had these amazing works, but then I think back to someone like Mary Cassatt, who was ahead of her time.

00;15;23;16 - 00;15;24;11
Susan
Right? Right.

00;15;24;15 - 00;15;52;14
James
And she was invited to be a part of the Impressionist movement, and she was showing the stories of the women, and there was class issues, and there was gender issues, and these things that she very gently and kindly brought the world's attention to. Right, right in the world at that moment. And I can see where what you are doing now is continuing in that kind of work.

00;15;52;14 - 00;15;53;05
Susan
Wow.

00;15;53;07 - 00;16;03;16
James
We need to have that. Thank you, thank you. That tells me and others that these stories are real. They exist and they're not one offs.

00;16;03;19 - 00;16;29;06
Susan
I think focusing on the part where you felt included, I was surprised, when I had the show up, how many men came to me and said, I can so relate to this work because I feel like I don't fit inside the box. I feel like I don't belong in any kind of space, and this work shows me that I have to.

00;16;29;08 - 00;16;49;11
Susan
And I was so surprised by that because I didn't think that my work would be relatable to men at all. I thought only women would really understand what it was I was trying to say. So thank you for saying that, first of all. And second of all, comparing me, you know, are putting me in the same bracket. I just I don't even have words for that.

00;16;49;11 - 00;16;57;22
Susan
I, I feel so, honored to even be have my name mentioned in the same space. So thank you.

00;16;57;25 - 00;17;27;06
James
We you know, we've studied art history. We look at these amazing individuals. And I think a lot of time, especially in Western art, it's the male. It's the white man. Yeah, yeah. And when someone comes along that starts a movement and you know, whether it's a Judy Chicago that does the table or it is Cindy Sherman who is kind of jamming the idea with her movie, film stills.

00;17;27;06 - 00;17;46;05
James
Yeah. You play in that realm because you are allowing us to see these stories through your eyes, both as someone who has maybe experienced these traumas, but someone that is able to tell somebody else's story through this visual.

00;17;46;07 - 00;18;15;10
Susan
Wow, wow. I really want to try to remove myself. I want to take myself away and only tell the women's story. But I think it's impossible. It's absolutely impossible to take away all the experience. And and you and I have studied together, you know, we've come a long way, you know, together on this art journey and studied a lot of of the same artist, you know, I think and different artists that we've come together and talked about and I and I find that fascinating and I, I cherish our friendship.

00;18;15;10 - 00;18;35;07
James
Men have come into the space where the show has been. They can relate. You are telling the stories of these individuals that are so powerful visually. Do you think because there's that coming together that it's kind of breaking down a stereotype?

00;18;35;09 - 00;18;51;23
Susan
Oh, wow, I hope so. I mean, really, I mean, there's going to be stereotypes always, but I really would love to break free from them. And I feel like maybe in our lifetime it's not going to happen. But if we take steps.

00;18;51;23 - 00;18;52;28
James
Little step by step.

00;18;52;28 - 00;18;56;16
Susan
Right, you know, change this one thing here on this one thing there.

00;18;56;16 - 00;19;07;08
James
I want to go back to how you talked of when you're doing these stories of these people. That you try to remove yourself but you don't think it's possible.

00;19;07;08 - 00;19;07;22
Susan
Right.

00;19;07;22 - 00;19;12;17
James
That is exactly what I teach my class is that you can't remove yourself.

00;19;12;17 - 00;19;12;26
Susan
No you.

00;19;12;26 - 00;19;29;09
James
Can't. Early on you talked about empowerment. Yes. And that these are helping these individuals and that it's been a kind of therapy and in some ways for some the best therapy to come out of this. How is that felt for you?

00;19;29;09 - 00;19;39;29
Susan
I hope that is successful. Yes. Yes, I you know, let me let me take away all those things that I was taught. Right. I can't say yes. I feel like it's successful. Yes, I can

00;19;40;02 - 00;19;45;00
James
This is my podcast. I get to say anything. We damn all want to,

00;19;45;03 - 00;20;14;07
Susan
You know, I mean, and it's kind of the stereotype, right? Women are trained that we're supposed to be humble and, you know, not supposed to be boastful. But I do think it's successful. I and I feel like I feel like it's helped me every bit as much as us help those women. I feel sometimes I feel completely drains after after a session of talking to a woman and listening to their stories and crying with them and and or laughing and sometimes laughing through tears, it's difficult to go through that with them.

00;20;14;07 - 00;20;18;16
James
You and I are kind of similar in that we start with a camera.

00;20;18;17 - 00;20;18;29
Susan
Yeah.

00;20;19;05 - 00;20;22;04
James
Yes, but it doesn't end there for you, does it now?

00;20;22;04 - 00;20;22;27
Susan
And does it not.

00;20;23;00 - 00;20;26;13
James
Talk to me about where it goes and how it gets there?

00;20;26;15 - 00;20;47;25
Susan
So the long story is that I'm a photographer and I'm taking classes at school, and I have to take a drawing class, and I go into this drawing class, throwing temper tantrums and fits. And, I had to ask the the instructor asks us to say why we're there, and I said that I'm in the class because I want to be a photographer.

00;20;47;25 - 00;21;06;12
Susan
And in order to be a photographer and get a degree, I have to take this drawing class. I don't want to be here. I am a photographer for a reason, I can't draw. I don't know what I'm doing in this class, but you know, I'm here. And she told me her name is Julie Hughes. You can take a class from her then.

00;21;06;12 - 00;21;35;19
Susan
I highly recommend it. She said, Susan, if you will follow my directions, I can make you draw. And I said, can we make a bet on that? Because now, so I did. I followed her directions and lo and behold, I can draw. I can't doodle, but I can draw. I know, I understand shadow and light, and I think that that comes from my background in photography that I really understand where shadows go, where light is in looking at that.

00;21;35;21 - 00;21;52;24
Susan
So. And that's really all drawing is, is you're drawing shadows and lights and shapes. I mean, that's all it is. I learned that I can do that. And then you know, I don't want to give up photography, but I also don't want to give up drawing. So I sat around and brainstormed with myself, how can I put these two together?

00;21;52;24 - 00;22;11;12
Susan
And another instructor that I had, Eric Friedman, I had a class with him and he said we had to do three large drawings. And I said, what if I print an image really big and I tear it apart and I draw the missing pieces, does that count? And then glue them all back together? Does that count? And he said, absolutely.

00;22;11;12 - 00;22;29;06
Susan
And I said, but I don't think I can do this. And he said, but I think you can. And if you don't, then at least you tried. Okay. So here I go. So the first one of these drawings that you're talking about that I did was five foot by two foot huge, 18 by 24 piece of paper. Behind that I drew in the missing pieces.

00;22;29;06 - 00;22;54;15
Susan
I think it was a success. I think mostly what the success was, whether it instilled the spark of creative energy that just ignited into this huge inferno. And I cannot stop now. I am, incredibly amazed by how you can highlight a story, sometimes so subtly that people don't even recognize that the story's there unless you talk to them about it.

00;22;54;17 - 00;23;03;10
Susan
And they're and they ask you, why did you do this? And you say, this is why? And they say, oh, wow, that's just amazing.

00;23;03;10 - 00;23;05;28
James
Do you consider yourself interdisciplinary?

00;23;05;29 - 00;23;12;10
Susan
Yeah. Well, yeah, absolutely. In particular, because I draw with charcoal, which is super messy.

00;23;12;12 - 00;23;12;20
James
And.

00;23;12;20 - 00;23;27;19
Susan
Super unpredictable. And, you know, photography is really kind of neat and clean and everything is pristine and white gloved and you handle everything so carefully. And I'm combining this really clean, neat process with the super messy, you.

00;23;27;19 - 00;23;28;00
James
Know.

00;23;28;02 - 00;23;29;02
Susan
Breaker. Yeah.

00;23;29;07 - 00;23;35;03
James
So, so you've torn the photograph, which we are told you absolutely.

00;23;35;03 - 00;23;40;04
Susan
Never do that. Yeah. The first time I did it, I was so scared.

00;23;40;07 - 00;23;49;14
James
But how does that then when you're doing these portraits of these individuals, these women, how does that terror play into the story?

00;23;49;14 - 00;24;13;22
Susan
And it's different in every single story. I'll just talk to you about one woman. Her name is Susan. Also, I love Susan. So I photographed several Susan is, older. And when she said one of the things that she told me when we were talking about what her story was, was she said when she looks in the mirror, she feels like she's looking at somebody else's face, like she's wearing a mask of somebody else.

00;24;13;25 - 00;24;35;10
Susan
So I thought about, how can I best tell the story? So I photographed her from the side. I cut the front of her face off in the photograph and drew the front of her face and glued it back together. So it's a mask, but it's a mask of herself. And I think that the image by itself is lovely, but the story about the mask, I think, makes it more compelling.

00;24;35;11 - 00;25;00;21
Susan
I think it's more I feel like the, the drawing and the time that it takes me to draw, I draw them photorealistic, the time that it takes me to draw in the way that I'm touching them and handling them with care. The hours that I pour into I feel like one. I really know every single thing about these women that I've drawn, because I am staring at them for so long and I draw with, makeup brushes and charcoal powder.

00;25;00;21 - 00;25;19;18
Susan
So it's layers and layers and layers and tiny little details that just take, a long time. And I think that the it's not just the story of the, the two pieces coming together, but the time spent on the touch. And care that go into the drawings that also make the, the story.

00;25;19;18 - 00;25;46;17
James
It's an empathy that you bring to this process that you are putting hand to paper. They've exposed their soul to you, and you have very gently told their story in an incredibly beautiful way. When I saw the show and saw the different pieces that you had specifically done these treatments to, they are extremely powerful to see in person.

00;25;46;17 - 00;25;56;13
James
So if anybody ever gets a chance to see these when Suzanne shows them, be sure to get out there and see it, because it isn't exactly collage, but it is.

00;25;56;16 - 00;26;13;02
Susan
I, I, I've struggled with what to call it. People ask me all the time, what do you call this process? I have no idea. I don't know, it's two pieces coming together. Is that collage? Collage feels, I don't know, maybe not as delicate as what this is, but really, it is what it is.

00;26;13;09 - 00;26;18;27
James
Well, I think to with collage, a lot of people go back to like Hannah Hawk and Dada and.

00;26;18;27 - 00;26;19;03
Susan
You're.

00;26;19;07 - 00;26;29;17
James
Flipping weird things out of a magazine to make a political statement. Yeah. And in some ways, yes, some of what you're doing might be considered a political statement, but.

00;26;29;22 - 00;26;30;07
Susan
Right.

00;26;30;08 - 00;26;43;00
James
There's this gentleness, there's this sort of femininity that's being brought to this that I think takes it beyond just moving away from the male lens.

00;26;43;03 - 00;27;04;00
Susan
Totally. And and speaking of the male gaze on the show, when I, when I put together the show, I deliberately took the women off the wall because I didn't want them on the wall to be objectified. I placed some of them on the wall, of course, but most of them I had in the center of the room. And then I placed mirrors.

00;27;04;00 - 00;27;28;29
Susan
So as the viewer walks through, they're forced to one be feel the gaze of other people as they're looking in mirrors at them, and so many mirrors that it's almost an uncomfortable space. And then all of the women, they're looking right at the viewer, with the exception of a couple like Susan, who was looking off to the side, but she still looks strong and powerful, I think.

00;27;28;29 - 00;27;41;03
Susan
But, you know, I want the women to be gazing back. And then as you walk through the the gallery, you see the women looking at you, also the gaze of the woman. Also, I took back.

00;27;41;05 - 00;28;00;25
James
You have said, early on in this conversation about how you didn't feel alone as you started this process. You were seeing that there were other people. Have you put yourself in front of the camera or have you remained behind directing this process?

00;28;00;25 - 00;28;29;17
Susan
So, so behind the camera, I'm so behind the camera. And actually, it's interesting that you mentioned that because I was just having a discussion about putting myself out there also. And it's a really scary thing. You know, it's easy to be a gentle and kind and accepting of somebody else's story, but I am afraid to stand in front of my own lens because I might see myself, and I might be seen in that light.

00;28;29;17 - 00;28;57;26
Susan
And and how do you tell your own story? And how do you be gentle with yourself? But then you know, again, it goes back to that this is where the whole reason I'm doing it, because none of us are gentle with ourselves. We all have the same issue when we turn the lens, our own lenses. You know, whether we look at it through a mirror or a picture that somebody took when we're being critical, you know, of, you know, the bellies too big or or a back to the menopause girdle.

00;28;58;00 - 00;29;12;25
Susan
But, you know, my arms. You know, I have those flaps underneath. I could fly myself to New York. Of arms. Yeah, yeah. So, you know. Yeah, I think I think it's time to do that. I. I'm not quite ready yet, though.

00;29;12;25 - 00;29;22;21
James
Okay, so I ask that question because as I mulled over what I saw in your show, I was realizing you were in front of the lens.

00;29;22;21 - 00;29;23;22
Susan
Right, right.

00;29;23;22 - 00;29;30;09
James
But then we have Cindy Sherman, right? Who does nothing but put herself in front of the lens.

00;29;30;09 - 00;29;30;21
Susan
Right.

00;29;30;26 - 00;29;36;06
James
And the reason why she is such a role model for me, who also puts themselves in front of the.

00;29;36;06 - 00;29;37;09
Susan
Lab, right.

00;29;37;12 - 00;29;39;25
James
Is that it's not always my story.

00;29;39;27 - 00;29;40;28
Susan
Right?

00;29;41;00 - 00;29;55;19
James
Would you ever consider if you were to have someone that decides that maybe they want their story told, but they aren't truly comfortable being in front of the lens? Would you be their surrogate in that moment?

00;29;55;20 - 00;30;21;24
Susan
Oh, that's a really interesting idea. I don't know, I don't know if, as the maker, I would feel comfortable being a surrogate. I think I could bring in a surrogate to tell the story, but I don't know if I especially because I'm really trying to remove myself from their story, take myself out as much as possible, even though it's it's completely difficult.

00;30;21;27 - 00;30;29;28
Susan
I do want to mention to you that in my show, I was in that, in the corner disguised as a camera. Had my self-portrait.

00;30;29;29 - 00;30;33;04
James
Oh, that is right. Which is one of my favorite drawings.

00;30;33;09 - 00;30;34;08
Susan
Because it's so.

00;30;34;08 - 00;30;35;11
James
Stunningly beautiful, I.

00;30;35;11 - 00;30;39;07
Susan
Think. Yeah, that's. Yeah, yeah, but I'm hidden in the corner watching.

00;30;39;09 - 00;30;43;23
James
You're watching? Yeah. And it's interesting because we as photographer ers watch.

00;30;43;23 - 00;30;44;26
Susan
Yeah. All the time.

00;30;44;26 - 00;30;48;03
James
We're those voyeurs that have that lens in front of our face.

00;30;48;03 - 00;30;48;17
Susan
Totally.

00;30;48;20 - 00;30;50;27
James
That separates us from our subject.

00;30;50;27 - 00;31;00;25
Susan
Absolutely, absolutely. My wife asked me one time, do you ever stop taking pictures? And the answer is no. Of course I immediately do. Yeah. No.

00;31;00;28 - 00;31;19;29
James
How do you navigate challenges of portraying these women with diverse backgrounds and experiences, while ensuring an authenticity to their story? And this might be removing stereotypes, right? You and I, we come from a white background.

00;31;19;29 - 00;31;22;01
Susan
Yeah, yeah, really really white.

00;31;22;01 - 00;31;38;18
James
But I've seen the subject matter that you have photographed and it is a very diverse background. How do you feel you have navigated, how have you navigated some stories that may be culturally different from you?

00;31;38;20 - 00;32;05;16
Susan
I do very carefully. Very carefully. And, and I ask a lot of questions because I don't want to one tell the story wrong, and I don't want to tell the story in a way that, doesn't represent who the person is, both culturally, emotionally, and physically how they see themselves. So I would just say gently and asking a lot of questions, asking a lot of questions.

00;32;05;16 - 00;32;30;08
Susan
And I'm working on one image in particular right now of a muslim woman. And I don't know much about the Muslim or religion or culture of, this particular person's from Palestine, which is probably requited and maybe not difficult to talk about right now, but but I think still at the same time important to tell her story. Even in this time.

00;32;30;08 - 00;32;51;24
Susan
I think it's important because I think that there needs to be humanization of of what's happening currently in, in that region on both sides. There needs to be humanization for us to understand that it's, it's difficult for everybody, you know, talking about a Palestinian scarf. And what does it mean? And how can I use that scarf?

00;32;52;01 - 00;33;03;06
Susan
Is it, you know, my appropriating if I use it in my work and and is it disrespectful if I use it in my work? I think just really carefully and again, asking all the questions. You know.

00;33;03;12 - 00;33;06;28
James
It's interesting because we, you know, we are Western civilization.

00;33;06;28 - 00;33;07;23
Susan
Yeah. Yeah.

00;33;07;26 - 00;33;26;28
James
We have these institutions that we have learned within. And I think it's interesting because you brought up that particular image that you're working on right now. And now more than ever, you talked about, you know, humanizing. But the reality it's reminding that we're all human.

00;33;27;03 - 00;33;35;17
Susan
Yeah, we're all human. We all have trauma, right? And we all have stories. Every single one of us. Absolutely.

00;33;35;19 - 00;33;40;26
James
Do you feel that portraiture in the way that you're doing it is the best way to tell this story?

00;33;41;03 - 00;33;52;01
Susan
God, I don't know if that's the truth, but it's the only way that I know how to tell the story. I can't tell it in any, any other different way. This is my language.

00;33;52;04 - 00;34;06;08
James
Now, for some that haven't seen Susan's work. When you're doing these portraits, are they studio or are they staged in a home or are they outside in the forest? What are you using for the backdrop?

00;34;06;08 - 00;34;29;01
Susan
Both on all of the above. I think it all depends on the woman in the majority I think are in this. The majority are in the studio. I think studio lighting's easier to control, to the light in ways that highlight the parts that we want to highlight. Or, and also there's a vulnerability. Many of the images have implied nudity.

00;34;29;01 - 00;34;50;04
Susan
The studio provides the best security and comfort to make the women feel and seem and appear on camera, comfortable. Because if they don't, if they're not comfortable, they don't look comfortable. So they have to be comfortable. And so I think the studio is the best for that. I have photographed in people's homes, and I do have plans for an outdoor shoot, but it's fully it's a fully dressed.

00;34;50;04 - 00;34;53;19
Susan
So I think, and not as vulnerable of a shoot.

00;34;53;22 - 00;35;05;16
James
It's interesting how you talked the vulnerability piece, and I can totally see where in one's studio. You've created a safe space.

00;35;05;16 - 00;35;06;03
Susan
Yeah.

00;35;06;03 - 00;35;09;26
James
Yeah they're outside world is not coming in.

00;35;09;27 - 00;35;10;11
Susan
Yeah.

00;35;10;13 - 00;35;14;27
James
So it almost feels like those chains kind of fall away from them.

00;35;14;27 - 00;35;40;01
Susan
Totally. And I think the studio is a space. I mean I am really comfortable in studio and it is my second home, but really in reality nothing of me is in there. I don't I don't have pictures of my family or anything like that. So it is kind of a neutral ground for both of us where we can stand as equals in that space and not, you know, the hierarchy of the photographer and the subjects.

00;35;40;04 - 00;35;45;06
James
Well, it's interesting you talk about that because there is a hierarchy when when a camera comes into it.

00;35;45;06 - 00;35;45;24
Susan
Yeah, yeah.

00;35;46;02 - 00;35;59;13
James
We have so much power of what is being photographed and how it will look. How do you get them comfortable with that camera.

00;35;59;15 - 00;36;19;15
Susan
I think I have no idea. I have no idea. I don't I honestly don't know what I do. I, I can make up something I think that I think I do and, and you know, maybe somebody who's been in front of my camera can correct me if I'm wrong. But I think for the most part, I talk. I'm a rambler, I like to talk a lot.

00;36;19;18 - 00;36;44;28
Susan
And so and I have no problem talking to anybody about any subject. And, and I think that already we've come. First of all, we already have a relationship, a really intimate relationship because we've talked about our traumas before. We came in and talked about what do they feel comfortable with, what do they not feel comfortable with. And, and, you know, almost like the safe words, you tell me when to stop if you are ever uncomfortable.

00;36;44;28 - 00;37;13;08
Susan
Let's just stop because I don't want to make anybody uncomfortable. It's not. What this is about is being uncomfortable unless it's a story you want to tell, right? If that's who you want to portray, then let's make you uncomfortable. But I think for me, I just try to act like the camera's not there and talk over the camera and try to maintain eye contact and minimize how much I look at the camera sometimes.

00;37;13;08 - 00;37;33;06
Susan
Do I miss a shot? Absolutely. Because of that. Right. But but do I get the genuine, emotion from whatever's going on between the two of us without the camera? Absolutely, absolutely. So I think that that's the thing I just try to humanize and minimalize, the camera as much as possible.

00;37;33;06 - 00;38;01;13
James
So all this effort that you're putting into this to get the photograph to start before you even begin, if you're going to do one where you have torn it and, the drawing, you're putting yourself into that person's spot, aren't you, in some respects, that you're trying to hear them, feel them, and make sure that that is a visual that comes into the lens?

00;38;01;13 - 00;38;17;26
Susan
Absolutely. I think empathy, I think, is what you're talking about is a who plays a huge role in all of this and all of this. It plays a huge role. I try to put myself in their shoes and understand what it feels like. I think because I think that's the only way I mean, really have to know them.

00;38;17;28 - 00;38;36;09
Susan
And and it's really the the whole process from beginning to end takes about three months. And when people first say, I want to do this, I'm like, yeah, it's a lot of work. I mean, it's really beautiful, right? But I don't think you really realize, because we have to have a relationship before we can even walk into the studio or decide if the studio is where we're going to be.

00;38;36;12 - 00;38;53;20
Susan
I think that, you know, it takes some time, and I've I've tried to rush it a couple times and it's it's a huge flop. You know, it just doesn't work because I thought, I need to have new work. Let me just work. But you know, it's just not something that can be rushed. So yeah, I think I do put myself and empathize with them.

00;38;53;20 - 00;38;54;27
Susan
I put myself in their place.

00;38;54;27 - 00;38;58;05
James
Does that emotionally drained you? Oh, you go through this.

00;38;58;05 - 00;39;17;16
Susan
Process hundred percent, 100%. You know, when when this whole thing first starts, we have a quick meet to say, hey, this is who I am, this is what this is what I expect of you. This is what I'm hoping for. And if you are okay with this, I'm going to send you a questionnaire. And I'd like for you to fill a questionnaire out.

00;39;17;16 - 00;39;37;14
Susan
Because as honest as possible, and you know, it's this questionnaire is in the trash. We're finished. Now we're just going to see it. But you and I, unless you want them to write, it's just something for us to get the ball rolling. And then after that we meet and we talk for 1 to 2 hours. I come up with questions.

00;39;37;14 - 00;40;04;21
Susan
This is stuff that I find interesting or or compelling about whatever it is that they answered, however, they answered something, and sometimes it's stuff that they don't even see themselves, that they don't even realize is really powerful and really touching. And so then when you talk about that and then and then I go back into my own space by myself and I think about what we've talked about and look at my notes and, and try to come up with shot list.

00;40;04;21 - 00;40;31;27
Susan
And then we talk about, okay, this is how I, this is a story that I see and this is how I'd like to photograph this. Are you comfortable with this line of, of photographing and, and here's kind of a generalized shot list, which I almost never stick to because, you know, they're great ideas, but you know, once you get into the studio, I don't know about you, but when I'm shooting, I think I want to do this one thing, and I get in the studio and I'm like, oh my God, look at this.

00;40;31;27 - 00;40;38;25
Susan
This is amazing. Let's go in this direction. And sometimes it's completely different than it is when the idea that I had when I walked in.

00;40;38;29 - 00;40;43;18
James
Yeah, you get in in that moment and it becomes organic. Totally.

00;40;43;18 - 00;40;59;21
Susan
And I think that that's what makes the best photography when it just happens organically, you know, of course you have a framework that you're working inside and you have to have the framework and you have to be prepared to work inside that framework. But once you get there, you know, it's kind of like we were talking about earlier.

00;40;59;27 - 00;41;18;29
Susan
You have these rules that you're supposed to follow and then and then you learn the rules and you work the rules, and then you're like, oh yeah, let's throw the rules out the window. Who needs rules right there? We don't need this anymore. So then I and then we talk about what the shot list is, and then we talk about the next thing that we talk about is wardrobe.

00;41;19;02 - 00;41;32;05
Susan
How do we tell your story or throw a drum. How do we do. We need to have a makeup artist or hair. Somebody come in to help you with that. And and you know or not. Right. Well.

00;41;32;05 - 00;41;37;07
James
And that plays into the beauty. Oh, totally. It may be part of their story.

00;41;37;08 - 00;41;38;07
Susan
Absolutely.

00;41;38;10 - 00;41;44;17
James
And the one thing that it doesn't do is automatically put it into an objectification.

00;41;44;17 - 00;41;45;08
Susan
Oh for sure.

00;41;45;10 - 00;41;49;03
James
It's just another chapter in the story that you're.

00;41;49;03 - 00;41;52;17
Susan
Trying to tell. Yes, absolutely, absolutely.

00;41;52;19 - 00;42;11;24
James
We have been all over the place in this conversation, which I well, I, you know, we get together and do this and it has been thrilling get getting to know better what it is that you're doing with this particular project. But as we close this out, I got one last question for you.

00;42;11;27 - 00;42;14;07
Susan
Okay. I'm ready.

00;42;14;10 - 00;42;27;14
James
In the climate that we have right now politically, socially, you know, we've talked feminism, we've talked that there's still things that women need empowerment too.

00;42;27;14 - 00;42;28;12
Susan
Right.

00;42;28;14 - 00;42;35;12
James
Do you feel that this project has a bit of activism in it?

00;42;35;15 - 00;42;42;11
Susan
Yes, yes I do, yes I do I think I hope it does. Yes, yes it does.

00;42;42;11 - 00;42;44;23
James
But not a soap box sort of.

00;42;44;24 - 00;43;07;09
Susan
No, I know I definitely don't want a soap box, but I feel like I mean, let's just talk about the election that's happening right now. I mean, we have we're talking about the the potentially the first woman president. But, you know, we should just be talking about a president. It shouldn't be an issue that it's the first president that happens to be female should just be right.

00;43;07;09 - 00;43;28;21
Susan
It should just be. Exactly. You know, it's kind of like we've talked before. It's not gay marriage. It's just my marriage. Right? I don't have gay breakfast. I happen to be gay. Called brunch. Yeah. It's, with champagne, but. But. So, yeah, I think I think there is some activism to it. I think that activism, I think that that's important is part of it.

00;43;28;23 - 00;43;44;09
James
It was something that I saw right from the beginning. When you were doing this, you're giving voice to those individuals that may not have had it before, which then puts this out into the world for others to see.

00;43;44;10 - 00;43;46;19
Susan
Right? And hopefully gives them a voice to.

00;43;46;20 - 00;43;54;29
James
Yeah, yeah. And I you know, to me that is the the most beautiful place to be in activism as an artist.

00;43;55;00 - 00;43;57;19
Susan
Oh thank you. Thank you for saying that.

00;43;57;22 - 00;44;06;07
James
So Susan, thank you so much for being with it was an absolute pleasure. I look forward to doing this again. Yes, please. Maybe after the Mary Cassatt visit.

00;44;06;08 - 00;44;10;16
Susan
Yeah. Oh, yeah. Let's talk about Mary. Yeah.

00;44;10;19 - 00;44;11;11
James
Thanks again.

00;44;11;11 - 00;44;14;01
Susan
Okay. All right. I'll talk to you later.

00;44;14;04 - 00;44;40;20
James
That finishes up today's cappuccino and this episode of Lattes & Art, presented by J-Squared Atelier. A huge thank you to Susan Harding for guiding us through the intersection of portraiture, storytelling, trauma, and healing. Her work shows us how art can offer a space for both reflection and empowerment, capturing not just the light, but the shadows that shape us.

00;44;40;22 - 00;45;06;12
James
Be sure to check out Susan's work. Those links are available in the show notes. If today's conversation has inspired you to explore the stories hidden within your own creative practice, we encourage you to lean into the process, however imperfect it may feel. And be sure to subscribe to lights and Art for more thought provoking conversations that highlight the power of creativity in all its forms.

00;45;06;15 - 00;45;18;19
James
Until next time, I'm your host, James William Moore, and I hope you keep creating, keep healing, and always find beauty in the journey. Until next time. Cheers!