Wrangling The Doubt Monster

Wrangling the Doubt Monster by Amy L. Bernstein is an insightful exploration into the complex world of creative self-doubt, providing practical advice and emotional support for artists navigating the turbulent waters of creativity. Bernstein dives into the psychological underpinnings of doubt, illuminating how it can both hinder and fuel artistic expression. The book offers a compassionate approach to managing doubt, emphasizing that it is a natural and even beneficial part of the creative process. Through engaging anecdotes, psychological research, and actionable strategies, Bernstein encourages readers to embrace their doubts and use them as a catalyst for growth and innovation. 

In this enlightening episode, Amy shares her evolution as a writer and the experiences that have shaped her eclectic body of work. We discuss the themes and inspirations behind her novels. Amy also offers insights into her role as a nonfiction book coach, emphasizing the importance of understanding one's "why" in writing and the strategies she employs to help authors navigate self-doubt, as detailed in her upcoming book, Wrangling the Doubt Monster. Listeners will gain valuable advice on embracing creative risks, the significance of community among artists, and practical tips for sustaining motivation throughout the writing process.

Wrangling the Doubt Monster is out January 28, 2025 and is available at Amazon:
https://www.amazon.com/dp/1610886380?ref=ppx_yo2ov_dt_b_fed_asin_title

To find out more about Amy's work you can find her here:

Website: https://amywrites.live
Instagram: https://instagram.com/amylbernstein
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/AmyLBernsteinAuthor/
YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLTNaG5_gkQlqP1BiqxAGnlXw3ooIz0Ru9 (Author’s YouTube Channel)

J-Squared Atelier, LLC
For the love of art

Buzzsprout - Let's get your podcast launched!
Start for FREE

PodMatch
Automatically Matches Ideal Podcast Hosts & Guests For Interviews While Streamlining the Process

Disclaimer: This post contains affiliate links. If you make a purchase, I may receive a commission at no extra cost to you.

Follow & Subscribe to Lattes & Art
Stay inspired with new episodes every week! Don’t miss out on deep conversations with artists, curators, and creators exploring the vibrant world of contemporary art.

Connect with Us:

J-Squared Aterlier (J2Atelier)
🌐 Website: J2 Atelier
📸 Instagram: @J2Atelier
James William Moore
🌐 Website: James William Moore
📸 Instagram: @the_jwmartist

Leave a Review:
Love what you hear? Help us grow by leaving a review on your favorite podcast platform! Your feedback keeps us inspired. 🎙️☕

Transcript

00;00;08;06 - 00;00;45;10
James
On this episode of Lattes & Art presented by J-Squared Atelier, we're delving into the multifaceted world of Amy L Bernstein, award winning novelist, journalist, playwright, and certified nonfiction book coach. Amy's diverse literary journey spans genres and forms, from dystopian narratives to insightful guides for creatives. Today, we explore her latest book, Wrangling the Doubt Monster: Fighting Fears, Finding Inspiration, and discuss her passion for helping writers and all creatives overcome self-doubt to achieve their goals.

00;00;45;12 - 00;00;56;15
James
So now's the time to get your latte ready, sit back and enjoy the show.

00;00;56;17 - 00;01;16;05
James
On today's episode, we have Amy Bernstein, who's joining us, who has a book that's coming out later this month, and we are going to get an opportunity to kind of delve into the creative process with her and battling doubt. So, Amy, thank you so much for joining us today. I appreciate it.

00;01;16;09 - 00;01;18;08
Amy
Thank you, James, I'm really glad to be here.

00;01;18;11 - 00;01;24;06
James
Could you just introduce yourself a little bit for the audience so they know who they're listening to?

00;01;24;09 - 00;01;57;21
Amy
Absolutely. I'm a little bit of a literary Jill of all trades. I'm a certified book coach, helping a lot of other authors find their best path to publishing. It's very rewarding work. I'm also a former journalist and an executive speechwriter, and I've worked. I worked for many years in communication science. And so for me, it's always been about the written word or the spoken word, because beyond that, I'm also a playwright, a published novelist, I write an awful lot on Substack.

00;01;57;21 - 00;02;09;13
Amy
I've had some poetry published, and, you know, now we've got, Wrangling the Doubt Monster coming along. So I do a little bit of everything except perhaps write for television and film.

00;02;09;15 - 00;02;10;23
James
Is that on the horizon?

00;02;10;23 - 00;02;16;17
Amy
Maybe I, I don't see it, but you know what they say. Never say never.

00;02;16;19 - 00;02;37;16
James
Never say never. That is so right. I'm excited to kind of jump into this because your writing has been all over. You know, you mentioned the different styles that you have done. And what is it about genre and writing that creates struggles for authors?

00;02;37;18 - 00;03;09;13
Amy
Oh, what? That's an interesting way of putting it. What is it about genre? Not just what are the struggles, but genre? I do think that's a fascinating question. And I've talked about genre with so many different writers, and what I've observed is that in a way, the genre picks the author. And what I mean by that is that people who want to write find themselves gravitating toward a certain kind of book over and over and over.

00;03;09;15 - 00;03;26;07
Amy
And even if they try and somehow wean themselves off it and switch like, oh, you know, I'm reading nothing but romance, I really need to go read. I need to go read crime fiction now, and then go off and do that. And they say, you know what, though? I am at heart, I mean, romance is what speaks to me.

00;03;26;07 - 00;03;48;02
Amy
It's what I want to read is what I want to write. It's how I think. And so I think that when there's a great compatibility between the author and sort of how she feels about life and about herself and that metaphor language that she uses to describe the world, it really helps align with the genre that's right for you.

00;03;48;04 - 00;04;12;21
Amy
So where doubt comes in is really going to cut across the board, right? Because as creators, we're going to start doubting almost no matter what, creative enterprise we're embarking on. And I think it certainly can wax and wane depending on how allied you are. Two years on, if you've chosen a genre you're not really compatible with, I think a lot of doubts are going to come roaring forward.

00;04;12;23 - 00;04;37;17
James
Well, and I think it's interesting because, you know, land is an art. Art what is art? And writing is a piece of that. And I think oftentimes people don't see that. And what you're talking about here, having these sort of different genres and finding the right one really is not unlike a painter or a sculptor that's sort of looking for what's working for them.

00;04;37;20 - 00;04;38;06
James
Oh.

00;04;38;08 - 00;04;58;09
Amy
Absolutely. I mean, when you see what painters go through in one career, you know, they start out with abstract, work and end up as is as, you know, realist portraitist. And so, you know, it really is so ingrained in the journey you're taking in your life and how you see the world and how you want to interpret the world and how you feel called to communicate.

00;04;58;15 - 00;05;11;12
Amy
And we are entitled to change our minds. I mean, I've written a mystery thriller, but I've also written a paranormal romance, and they both were so much fun, and I kind of refuse to stick to the knitting. And I think other artists and poets feel that way too.

00;05;11;12 - 00;05;16;11
James
I liked it, you said it was so much fun. Does that help get rid of the doubt?

00;05;16;11 - 00;05;44;14
Amy
Well, nothing gets rid of doubt, okay, doubt. Self-doubt is with us. It's part of the human condition. We have been questioning ourselves from the time that human began. Human beings began to have internal thought, and that is not going away. And we shouldn't pretend that it can or that it will. But I will tell you, James, that the more I talk about this and write about it and think about it, the more convinced I am that we can walk with our doubts.

00;05;44;21 - 00;06;01;17
Amy
Which is to say, we have to acknowledge that we have them. We have to admit that this is a we are vulnerable in this way, that we don't think that we necessarily are. How to do something. We may not be talented enough. We may not be good enough. These are the thoughts that we hear in our own head over and over.

00;06;01;17 - 00;06;19;14
Amy
But at the end of the day, those thoughts don't need to act like a kind of a traffic cop. They do not have to stop us so we can coexist with these doubts relatively peacefully if we work at that over time. And I've seen this this work for a lot of creative people, and I think it's the way we need to go.

00;06;19;14 - 00;06;22;11
Amy
We've got to walk with doubt, not deny its power. But there's a.

00;06;22;14 - 00;06;40;21
James
Circus out there and you're talking through this. And it brought to my mind a lot of conversation is happening about imposter syndrome. In your opinion, is that something that if we're struggling with that, is it because there's self-doubt that's kind of defeating us?

00;06;40;21 - 00;06;57;29
Amy
Maybe imposter syndrome is a term that's certainly been around for a long time. It's really useful shorthand for that feeling we have when we feel unworthy. We're called to do something by some force in the outside world when we feel unworthy. Why were we called this other person is better than I am worried. Why do they think I can do this?

00;06;58;00 - 00;07;25;20
Amy
Well, that is all an aspect of the self-doubt that swirls within us. I've kind of created my own theory about imposter syndrome, which is a little bit different from this broader notion about self-doubt. I think that imposter syndrome arises most at its most present and most worrying when we have, in fact, had some success and had some achievements, and those achievements and successes have been noticed by others, and suddenly you are out there.

00;07;25;20 - 00;07;55;16
Amy
You're exposed, your name is out there, your work is out there. People are judging you, people reviewing you, critiquing you, evaluating you. And you're being you're being seen. And being seen can be wonderful and it can be terrifying. And I think imposter syndrome really kicks in when you're in that stage of being seen and even lauded. And then you're you feel disconnected from who you really are because you're this self-doubting person who worked really hard to get these achievements.

00;07;55;16 - 00;08;20;04
Amy
And people see the, the, the, the icing on the cake, and they don't see all the work that went into making the cake. So there's all this kind of weird disconnection with identities and I think arises and I so for me, imposter syndrome correlates to sort of certain moments in time or in one's career or trajectory, whereas self-doubt is persistent all the time in different ways, whether you feel seen or not seen.

00;08;20;07 - 00;08;37;29
James
Before we jump into your book. I want to ask a question you were all about taking creative risks, and from what I found when I was doing a little research on you, it's like the core of your focus. Can you talk a little bit about that?

00;08;38;06 - 00;09;03;03
Amy
Yes, and I'm so glad you brought that up. I do believe that creative people, whether they're being creative all along, all their lives or whether they're pivoting to a more creative career, which many people do, we have to be prepared to renegotiate and redefine our relationship, to risk what it looks like, what it feels like, and how we handle it.

00;09;03;03 - 00;09;21;19
Amy
Because you cannot be creative and you cannot go out there and sort of do creative things without taking risks, risks that are internal to you in terms of pushing yourself in an art form and risks that are external in terms of, you know, this may mean that maybe you're cutting back on paid work to do more creative work.

00;09;21;26 - 00;10;02;13
Amy
Maybe you're suddenly maybe you're having your first exhibit in a gallery, or you were self-publishing your first book. As we said a moment ago, you are going to be seen. You are taking big risks. You're risking yourself. You're very self-concept, right? You're leaving that open for people to see. And if we're going to do this work with the joy and passion that we deserve to do it with, we have to learn to accept, new boundaries about what risk is, what it does for us because it opens us up to new possibilities and ways in which we still need to protect ourselves from, you know, the downsides of risks such as criticism, bad reviews.

00;10;02;20 - 00;10;14;05
Amy
So when you're going to get very creative, if you haven't been up to now, one of the things you do need to do is navigate and renegotiate your relationship to risk, and be prepared to take more of it.

00;10;14;06 - 00;10;37;00
James
It's interesting because I am someone that I started out creative, and then I moved out of that and went into a world that was very structured and very I was in the finance field because of rules, because of these sorts of things. That creativity starts to kind of shrinking. And so now here I am later in life, and I've swung the other way.

00;10;37;00 - 00;10;57;28
James
And it's interesting how you talked through that, because it's part of what I felt. It's like, am I fooling myself? Am I doing what I should be doing? Am I where I should be, and do I need to make space for this? And I think it is true that we need to make space for ourselves to be creative.

00;10;57;28 - 00;11;01;06
James
If we don't have that, it's like, where's it going to come from?

00;11;01;08 - 00;11;20;11
Amy
Yes, yes to everything that you just said. And and I will simply add that we're not conscious enough and intentional enough about thinking these things through, which I think it's I think it's in our interest to do so, which is why I like to talk about it. I mean, I like to say I am on a mission to sort of destigmatize doubt and normalized out for all these reasons that we're talking about and that you.

00;11;20;11 - 00;11;37;07
James
Said, I know that this is an audio show, but I get the privilege of getting to see your bookcase behind you. And can you talk a little bit about the Potrero complex? Because I'm intrigued. Again, when I was researching, I'm like, this is looking up my alley.

00;11;37;09 - 00;11;55;15
Amy
Yeah, yeah. So I look I will say for, for for benefited folks who, who it's it's non-visual. I have a, image of my actual real bookcase behind me, and my mystery thriller is one of the books that's facing out. It was a complete accident. That book is facing out from the shelf. I don't know how that happened.

00;11;55;15 - 00;12;17;19
Amy
I'll have to speak to someone. Gasp! They wrote during the pandemic. I just got this idea during the pandemic, as so many people got so many ideas during the pandemic, and I wanted to write about what would happen if an even worse kind of pandemic or massive sort of like mass disease process swept through our population. And what kind of a lasting mark would that make on culture?

00;12;17;25 - 00;12;43;03
Amy
How would how would it shift our behavior? How would it shift our relationship to governance and our tolerance for risk as a society? And I began to ask all these what-if questions, which is what I love to do when I gave birth to a mystery thriller that looks at some pretty devastating, serious and kind of horrifying things that come out of changes in the balance between people and power in the wake of a really, really, really terrible pandemic.

00;12;43;03 - 00;12;53;18
Amy
And I don't want to give away too much, but it is a mystery about a missing girl, missing teenager in a small town. Actually more than one. But it's all tied to some fairly nefarious forces that are that are at work.

00;12;53;18 - 00;13;12;07
James
This came about because of pandemic, right? We're all locked in and the post-apocalyptic feel that we were going through. How much does what circles in your world, whether it's what you're feeling yourself for, what you're experiencing or going through, make it to your books.

00;13;12;10 - 00;13;32;25
Amy
You know, I think every author has a completely different answer for that question, except that I think the commonality is more often than not, you'll hear us issues some version of I don't know. Which is to say, it's so hard to know. These ideas come and go, and what I do is I wait for the ones that are sticky.

00;13;32;27 - 00;13;50;22
Amy
If I start thinking about something and I don't remember it the next day, well, that's the that's that. If I start thinking about something and it starts to sort of settle in and I start to have more thoughts about it, and I start to ask questions and I start to imagine characters and scenes. It's like, then I know I might have something that I can really work with.

00;13;50;22 - 00;14;12;05
Amy
I tend to get lots of ideas from the news, from from culture, and from posing a lot of what if questions about where we are now in our reality and where things might end up. They absolutely love the speculative mode, because I think it's so much fun to kind of go, what? But what if? And so that's where a lot of my fiction comes, comes from.

00;14;12;05 - 00;14;24;03
James
Ultimately, when I was on your website and I was going through, I have to tell you, I was so caught up with your tagline telling stories that let you feel and make you think, where did that come from?

00;14;24;07 - 00;14;54;11
Amy
Actually, I actually can sort of answer that one. It's not like, I don't know, I was in a marketing or and or author branding workshop. This is easily three years ago, three, three and a half years ago, and whoever was giving the workshop at that time said something about the power of of an author branding herself with something like a tagline and the minute she said that, I literally went off to a blank screen while this workshop's going on and like, scribbled something very close to what it what it is.

00;14;54;16 - 00;15;10;11
Amy
Oh, this is, this is this is what I do. Oh, this is it. I'm really pleased that, you know, my writing has changed a lot. My even my writing goals have changed a lot in the last 3 or 4 years. The tagline is still true, really, to probably everything that I do. So I think I captured something about myself that was true.

00;15;10;11 - 00;15;24;18
Amy
And I'm I'm glad that I in that moment that I was able to do that. And I do recommend that authors do this. You need to you may not like the word branding in general might feel icky to you, but at the end of the day, you want to communicate something essential about who you are as a writer and what your concerns are.

00;15;24;18 - 00;15;25;22
Amy
And it's a good way to do it well.

00;15;25;22 - 00;15;49;15
James
And I think with all artists, we have a branding, whether we recognize that or not. You know, my art, it's kitschy, it's campy, it is what it is. And I get labeled that. And as long as I can embrace these sort of taglines that are who I am as an artist, I think it helps guide us deeper into discovering who you are as an author.

00;15;49;18 - 00;16;06;14
James
And, you know, I just I loved the moment that was like the first visual that I got. And I was like, okay, I know what I'm in for. And I appreciated that. Now you've got a book that's coming out on January 28th. Tell me about this. How did this come about?

00;16;06;16 - 00;16;35;22
Amy
Sure. This book is called Wrangling the Doubt Monster Biting Fears, Finding Inspiration. This is a book of inspiration and encouragement for every self-doubting creative who is out there in the world, in working in any medium. I wrote it as a way to talk through my own self-doubt. As a person who wouldn't even call herself a writer until well into midlife, even though it's all I've ever done.

00;16;35;23 - 00;16;52;19
Amy
And I also wrote it because I'm working with so many writers now, really in countries around the world who are struggling with these core questions about, can I do this? Who said I could write a book? Can I write a book? You know, who's you know, do I need permission? You know, am I good enough? Will I ever sell it?

00;16;52;20 - 00;17;15;17
Amy
I mean, all of this is in there and you know how hard it is. It's like, I can't finish this. I'm stuck. I'll never. I don't have what it takes. All these things. That's true across artistic media, right? And so I wanted to write a book that would open a conversation, allowing us to be more vulnerable and acknowledge that we all walk with self-doubt and that many times, our doubts stop us in our tracks.

00;17;15;17 - 00;17;42;00
Amy
And my thesis, which I said kind of earlier, is it can and it does, but it need not. It's it's really all about some mindset protocols really, and how we sort of choose to think about these things. So the book is pure encouragement and inspiration. It's illustrated with these lovely, light hearted sort of warm pictures that help artists feel sort of seen and encouraged to walk with their doubts.

00;17;42;05 - 00;18;04;20
Amy
It is not a it's not like a Co two. It's not a workbook, it's not really a guidebook. What I've started to say is that it's a tool to help you recognize your own vulnerability as a doubting person, realize you are not alone, that you are in community with these thoughts, and that you can go forward and make your art despite your doubts.

00;18;04;20 - 00;18;17;26
Amy
That is where that's where it really works. As a tool. And I'm pleased to say that many people who have read the book before it comes out are saying that that's helping them, and we're trying to use the term monster casually in conversation now. Oh my doubt. Monsters have come out.

00;18;17;26 - 00;18;26;07
James
Well, and it's interesting that this idea that are now calling into doubt monster. Right. That creeps in.

00;18;26;10 - 00;18;27;02
Amy


00;18;27;05 - 00;18;43;20
James
There's some humor to this but there's some humanizing to it. It allows us to giggle a little bit at our own selves. And some of the roadblocks we may put in place that keep us from finding that idea, that creation, that success.

00;18;43;26 - 00;19;02;20
Amy
Yes. And I'm so glad you brought up two aspects of that. On the one hand, we do need to we do need to not take ourselves quite so seriously all the time. That is so important because that gives us cathartic distance on our own circumstances, on our own human condition, on our identities, as as creative people. So that's important.

00;19;02;20 - 00;19;25;00
Amy
And on the other hand, there are, you know, there are moments that are that are, yes, very serious, where I think people can read some passages and go, wow, that's me. You know, you got me. How powerful is it to put words to feelings that we don't always want to articulate, even acknowledge, discuss? And I'm putting words to those feelings in a really big way.

00;19;25;00 - 00;19;30;08
Amy
I've really doubled down on that. And that's why I'm saying I'm trying to normalize conversations around this topic.

00;19;30;08 - 00;19;52;21
James
That key word normalize. There are words in our society that we're all nervous about talking about or admitting to. And the more that we can normalize this sort of thing that we all feel doubt in ourselves in some time, that we won't be successful with this idea that we won't become the big famous individual that we had dreamed of as a child.

00;19;52;21 - 00;20;20;15
James
The more this conversation can occur, the more normal it becomes. And I think that's great that your book gives this opportunity to be able to get there. I'm actually excited. I am looking forward to reading it myself. And I've already, you know, one person that I need to get a copy for, for them to read because they are actually writing right now and kind of figuring out how to go through that process.

00;20;20;15 - 00;20;45;19
James
And so I kind of want to jump for a second over to, as a writer, how do you find what's right for you in publishing and self-publishing and how, like, you're marketing yourself right now and how you're getting this book out? What are you doing that you could tell other writers so that they may be able to see that same sort of success.

00;20;45;22 - 00;21;08;09
Amy
Yeah. Let me let me answer that a little bit sideways, rather than just tell you, quote unquote, what I'm doing. I think it's very important. And again, I've had so many conversations with so many writers in different stages about this very thing. It's really important for every writer to find the tools and the outlets that he or she or they are most comfortable with as their authentic selves.

00;21;08;09 - 00;21;27;29
Amy
There's no point in trying to do something that you feel profoundly uncomfortable and unsure about, because you won't be your best self in that medium. So let's take a really obvious example. You don't want to go on TikTok. You don't want to make little videos of yourself. You are just not that person. You're not comfortable. You don't particularly want to get comfortable.

00;21;27;29 - 00;22;00;22
Amy
It's not your way. Your way is to write a Substack post with a nice picture where you can take time, put your thoughts together and put it together as a little essay and find the perfect illustration and share it that way. That is terrific. It's important to really find the channels where you express your best self and forget about the rest, because this notion that you somehow have to be everywhere all at once, like the movie, every, everything, everywhere, all at once, or whatever we call it, or that you have to be all things to all people.

00;22;00;22 - 00;22;23;26
Amy
And then if you're not doing that well, you have just failed to fully market yourself and realize your marketing potential. No, I call BS big time, big time on that. You know, it's we really miss these these channels. And I'm referring to everything you would put under the social media umbrella, for example, that includes podcasts, even just it's social and it's media, right.

00;22;23;26 - 00;22;42;16
Amy
These channels have matured enough. We know what they are. We know who they're serving. We have to be honest about who they're not serving, and we have to gravitate to the ones that play to our strengths. And there are people and I envy them. I'm not a very photogenic person. I never have been. It doesn't worry me. It's just a reality.

00;22;42;16 - 00;22;59;12
Amy
But there are people who can go on, do an Instagram reel or TikTok reel and they're gorgeous and they are perfect. And you think that they rehearse their script, and I don't think they did. They're just so good at it. And their backdrop is amazing. And I'm sitting there going, oh, did you put that together? Like, that's hard for me.

00;22;59;12 - 00;23;22;09
Amy
And I did TikTok for a year, by the way. I was sharing tips for writers and resources and sharing content in a really authentic way. And it still wasn't easy. I'm more of your Substack gal, right? I love, love, love, love podcasts because podcasts are conversations and I love having conversations rather than talking to the ether. Oh, by way of saying, when you're marketing yourself as an author, when you're marketing a book, hate that pressure off yourself.

00;23;22;09 - 00;23;45;06
Amy
You do not have to do a million things. Social media does not sell books. Engagement sells books. Finding real people to talk to about real things that connect to your work. That's what moves people doing book clubs, that kind of thing moves people. We don't just automatically forget all the forget the book talk thing. Like if only that one booktok influencer found you, you'd be a millionaire.

00;23;45;08 - 00;23;51;10
Amy
No. Forget it. It's not. It's not real life. So I think I think I was on my soapbox there, but there you go.

00;23;51;12 - 00;24;19;14
James
You know what? I love a good soapbox. A friend and I wandered through the Palm Springs Art Museum yesterday, and the interesting conversation that came up was audience. And they're kind of discovering where they're going with what they're doing. And at the moment, everything is exciting and fresh and new and trying to bring focus to this, bringing that reminder that you need to know who the audience is.

00;24;19;14 - 00;24;47;26
James
You need to find an audience. It's not just about putting it out there. And I think you saying that with social media, that's fine. And you get the likes and you get the views and the stuff, but does it really generate what you're trying to do with what you're writing, your art, your creativity? And I think finding the right way to do it, to get it out there is more important than just having a bunch of posts here and there.

00;24;47;27 - 00;25;10;14
Amy
Absolutely. It really is. It really is. And as you say, it is about understanding who is your reader and how do you connect with them. And, you know, if you if you can be comfortable giving a talk, a stand up talk in a library, in a community center. Not that you know, I'm sure bookstores are great, but I mean, you know, even bookstores, you're not guaranteed to have a lot of people, you know, it's not this don't know.

00;25;10;15 - 00;25;30;20
Amy
It's not a solid answer. It is about it is about trying to just be real with real and engage with real people. I mean, that's that's what it's going to feed your soul. It's going to feed the audience's soul. And we pretend that social media is is like engagement. But most of the time it's just a one way communication from you to the two completely anonymous world.

00;25;30;28 - 00;25;32;12
Amy
And that's not very satisfying.

00;25;32;12 - 00;25;40;04
James
I want to ask a question about being a certified nonfiction coach. What is that?

00;25;40;06 - 00;26;02;03
Amy
Yes. Let me break that down. Well, coach, unlike, say, just a traditional editor. And I'm going to generalize a bit, but it's pretty true. A book coach is someone who will work with the author in a very holistic way, as an accountability partner for their work, as someone who can provide real, specific tools and guidance as they try and structure a work in any genre.

00;26;02;03 - 00;26;26;05
Amy
As someone who will be a champion for them as they're going through the process of writing, planning, drafting, and kind of be with you, be alongside you. So you're not doing all that yourself. By contrast, the traditional work of an editor and again, the editors come in many shapes and sizes, but an editor works with text, a book coach works with the whole author on every aspect of the process.

00;26;26;09 - 00;26;47;24
Amy
Well, or almost every aspect. Simple coaches will take you all the way through to a proposal or query letter, and some some will just work with you to look to the drafts. And depending on what you're writing, there are book coaches who are working in fiction, nonfiction, memoir. I went through the Author Accelerator program, which is the premier book coach certification program.

00;26;47;24 - 00;27;13;09
Amy
Now it's pretty acknowledged as such. And there are hundreds of us now book coaches literally around the world, who are working with authors to help them find their best path to writing, leading a work and often getting published. And it's incredibly challenging and rewarding for the coach and the author. And these relationships are really bearing a lot of fruit that the Raiders are not doing everything in isolation.

00;27;13;09 - 00;27;22;10
James
So if a writer is looking that's writing nonfiction and is looking for a coach, are they able to connect with you through your website? How do they yes.

00;27;22;10 - 00;27;41;02
Amy
I yes, I have a, through my, my author website has a link to my book coaching website, I think, and vice versa as well. So Amy writes Dot live, which is my author website, has a page that would take you to my book coaching. I will say that I welcome inquiries. I am not accepting any new clients right now.

00;27;41;02 - 00;28;07;18
Amy
I'm happy to say that I have such a full stable of authors, that I can't take anyone on right now. But that could change in about six months when I when my birds fly the nest and get book deals, which I'm hoping is going to happen with a couple of them soon. But yes. And people can read up on this and and if anyone wants to learn more about a coaching, either because they may feel that this is a great thing that they want to do themselves, or they may feel that a book coach can help them.

00;28;07;18 - 00;28;11;02
Amy
They can also visit Author accelerator.com.

00;28;11;05 - 00;28;17;27
James
Nice. That's got a feel good that you're that busy with helping these others.

00;28;17;27 - 00;28;39;08
Amy
It is amazing. And the reason I'm coaching nonfiction is twofold. First of all, a lot of my career was in nonfiction as a journalist, as a government speechwriter in some really complex communications work with government nonprofits. So I've done a tremendous amount of nonfiction work. And because I also write fiction, I always say to people, I don't want to confuse my brain.

00;28;39;08 - 00;28;58;13
Amy
I don't want to help you write your novel if I'm trying to write my novel. So there are many coaches who coaches specifically in the genre that they themselves are steeped in. In other words, they are folks writing romance books who coach romance writers. And that's marvelous. It's just not how my brain works. My clients are gloriously diverse.

00;28;58;13 - 00;29;06;12
Amy
I mean, they're journalists, educators, scientists, and it's just wonderful to to sort of help each of them on that, on that journey to get their book done.

00;29;06;12 - 00;29;26;09
James
The genre in writing is so amazing and I think what you're talking about when you say that you want to coach nonfiction specifically, and how you need to be able to have that space for fiction. Our brains kind of get overloaded, don't they?

00;29;26;12 - 00;29;45;01
Amy
My brain is very overloaded right now. I can you spell? Yes. And, Yeah. Yeah. And you didn't ask. But I will say that there are such extraordinary commonalities between writing fiction and writing nonfiction. People might think, oh, well, these are just very different things. Actually. They're not. Because what they're what ties them together is the power of storytelling.

00;29;45;01 - 00;30;01;26
Amy
Because great nonfiction, it's also about telling stories not quite the same way, but, you know, you still need to get that reader drawn into, you know, a challenge. And what's the solution? And who are the heroes and who were the villains? And, you know, how are you going to get me to the finish line? And of course, in fiction, it's very much the same thing.

00;30;01;26 - 00;30;11;00
Amy
You need to have, you know, the action. You gotta have people to root for. You got to have get people to a conclusion that's satisfy buying in some way, and so that they do have a lot in common.

00;30;11;00 - 00;30;31;12
James
You are coaching these individuals, and you mentioned that you're hoping that we see publications coming later this year into next. What happens when there's rejection? How do you coach them through that? How does rejection start to feed more of that. You know the doubt monster.

00;30;31;15 - 00;30;48;05
Amy
Yeah, that is a wonderful question. Let me walk back some of I might in case I gave a wrong impression. My clients often are working with me. Maybe they were working with me for more than a year, because it takes so long for them to get the ball to a point where they can write a really powerful proposal, which on the nonfiction side, you need a book proposal.

00;30;48;05 - 00;31;08;03
Amy
It's different in fiction. You have to have a complete manuscript, and you're going to query an agent or a publisher with a complete manuscript. In nonfiction, you have to have a complete idea and really, really structure chapters. You have to know where the book is going, and you have to know a lot of other things about how you can help market it and so forth, and who the audience is only have to have sample chapters really written and polished that someone may read.

00;31;08;03 - 00;31;23;27
Amy
So the parts are a bit different. And I'm at I helped one author last year. Now kneel down with her agent and get a book deal. Through some of the work that we did together, which was very gratifying. This year, I have, I think, of some of my clients as getting ready to graduate, which is to say we're working.

00;31;23;27 - 00;31;43;23
Amy
We're working on a proposal now that we'll be taking into the marketplace. I have another writer who I think will be at the proposal stage within the next three months. And so then to get to your core question, I prepare them by telling them over and over again, look, this is a really, really, really tough business. Just you got to hear, which is amazing.

00;31;43;23 - 00;32;16;28
Amy
There's just no it's in my contract. There are no guarantees. There are no I cannot guarantee that a client of mine will get an agent, a publisher or book deal, make money, self-publishing. Nope. Can't guarantee you. And I put that in writing. But the but is that you have to remember that there's huge joy and learning and self accomplishment that comes along with just getting far enough along to make the book, write the book, plan the book structure, the book writing a book proposal is not a small, small thing.

00;32;17;02 - 00;32;23;08
Amy
So there's a lot to be said for doing those things. And then there are things that are out of your control, and that's life.

00;32;23;09 - 00;32;49;04
James
This is so true in any of the art there. There are no guarantees, there are no proven successes that can be repeated. And I think until we kind of embrace that rejection is a part of this world and comes that doubt monster. And is there some controlling that when we are able to process rejection better, do you think?

00;32;49;05 - 00;33;15;13
Amy
I think it's taking me more. Have I lived this? I'm I am a I call myself a serial submitter. I've submitted a lot of stuff. I've been kind of, you know, very aggressive about it. Right? Because you know what? If you don't play, you know, you can't win. And here's where I've come out on rejection, because I've been through the traps on this for like many, many, many other creative people for a long time.

00;33;15;13 - 00;33;30;06
Amy
I took it personally in the sense that I was heartbroken because I pretty I was pretty sure I was being told that I'm just not good. My work wasn't good, my work wasn't good. Even if I thought I made it as good as it could be. I was being told to stay. And that was very, very hard to take.

00;33;30;06 - 00;33;46;29
Amy
And I will tell you, and I will tell everyone who's listening. I went into real depressions about this. I had real I had real crises where I thought, I thought I was going to be really good at all this. I can't believe I'm not like, smashing it. You know, I came out of a successful career type stuff and pivoted to all this writing.

00;33;46;29 - 00;34;27;12
Amy
Why am I not killing it? Okay, so I understand rejection big time. I've been down this journey now a really long time and I finally came. It feels amazing. I've come out to a very different place and here's a different place. Yeah, the writer or the artist has to realize that while you think that editor or curator, whoever it is, why you think they are rejecting you monumentally, personally, professionally, as a human being and as an artist, what they are doing is balancing a thousand variables you don't know anything about, about the anthology they're putting together, about the magazine they're putting together, about the art exhibit they're putting together, about the mix of artists they

00;34;27;12 - 00;34;49;16
Amy
need, about diversity considerations, about stylistic considerations, honed voice. What if you wrote something that was similar to somebody else? They already accepted various things. Got what if you what if you were? Your work is kind of running long and they decided they just need two shorter pieces. You don't control any of this. And so most of the time they're being oversubscribed.

00;34;49;16 - 00;35;09;28
Amy
There are 6000 people applying for a dozen places. Just because you don't make the cut doesn't mean you're not good or even great. It means that they had to make an equation and you're not part of that equation. It's not about you. This is so important to take on board, because we've got to depersonalize this a little bit.

00;35;10;00 - 00;35;13;15
Amy
And that's it took me so long to figure that out. It's so obvious to me now.

00;35;13;21 - 00;35;43;10
James
And it's funny that I love that you call it Depersonalized because I teach in a college setting art and one of the processes is critique. And I have a lecture that's called The Golden Rules of Critique, and one of them is you can't take it personal. You can learn from this experience. You can hear what the audience is telling you, but like you said, that audience is completely out of your control.

00;35;43;12 - 00;35;56;28
James
It isn't anything that you can get warm fuzzies from. If they're not ready to give them. It's a great thing when we can get to that point of realizing it's not personal.

00;35;56;28 - 00;36;18;18
Amy
And you know, the thing that's so off kilter here is that when we make art in any form, the making of it is very personal to us. So the product that we create is personal. The minute you put it to the outside world, it's not personal in that you are now one commodity among many, many, many, many, many other commodities in your in your area.

00;36;18;18 - 00;36;36;19
Amy
And you can't you have to see it as now something separate from you. So you know when I have when I have agents turning down my manuscripts. I didn't write a bad book. I wrote a book that they don't think they can sell to the piece of the market that they deal with. And, well, right now in the ancient world, there's a lot of considerations going on.

00;36;36;19 - 00;36;51;12
Amy
If they don't think they can sell to a big publisher, and there's going to be at least 30,000 copies, a lot of them are interested. That's a whole other thing. You're I mean, you may be trying to thread a needle and you belong threading a different needle. So that's why there's all these things that take away the personal realm.

00;36;51;12 - 00;37;07;16
Amy
And as you say, you do have to learn to be able to handle valid and valuable criticism and input and learn from it and grow from it. And it's hard, but you'll be better as a result. But so many of these, these things are is just not about what you made and what you did and what you thought and how good you are.

00;37;07;16 - 00;37;08;01
Amy
It's just not.

00;37;08;02 - 00;37;13;10
James
Amy, I am so loving this conversation. It has been great.

00;37;13;12 - 00;37;13;25
Amy
Yes.

00;37;14;02 - 00;37;33;17
James
As we as we start wrapping up, I'll make sure that all of the links are in the show notes so that people can find you in the book and learn more about the coaches and just all of this. But if you were to leave us with how to wrangle that doubt monster, what would you leave us with?

00;37;33;18 - 00;38;06;15
Amy
I think a lot of this starts with giving yourself permission to be an artist. Give yourself the space to explore without outcomes, who make art without confronting judgment, suspending judgment, to experiment, to be open to failure, whatever that means. It looks like to you to take these creative risks we talked about. But it starts with you must give yourself permission to be this person, to be this person who makes things.

00;38;06;15 - 00;38;21;21
Amy
Because to many creative people, I mean are withholding permission from themselves and not doing the work that they're capable of doing. And that's really where it starts. And you you can walk with the doubts if you give yourself permission to answer the calling in the passion that's inside.

00;38;21;21 - 00;38;44;23
James
You, I love that give yourself permission. Wrangling the Doubt Monster fighting fears, finding inspiration is dropping on January 28th. Amy Al Bernstein is the brilliant mind behind this book. Not to be missed. Amy, thank you so much for the time today. I really appreciate you sharing your knowledge, your experiences, and your new book.

00;38;44;27 - 00;38;50;17
Amy
James, I loved this conversation with you and I feel like you and I could talk for another hour.

00;38;50;20 - 00;38;55;10
James
Right? I mean, it's tough. And I'm out of coffee.

00;38;55;13 - 00;39;00;21
Amy
Right? Thank you, thank you, thank you.

00;39;00;23 - 00;39;26;15
James
This brings us to the end of this inspiring conversation with Amy L. Bernstein. We've explored her incredible journey as a writer and her mission to help creatives overcome self-doubt with Wrangling the Doubt Monster: Fighting Fears, Finding inspiration. If today's discussion resonated with you. Be sure to check out Amy's work and consider how her insights can help you embrace your own creative process with confidence.

00;39;26;22 - 00;39;50;18
James
And don't forget Wrangling the Doubt Monster fighting Fears Finding Inspiration releases on January 28th and will be available on Amazon. If you're a writer struggling with self-doubt or looking for motivation to push forward. This book is a must read. You can find all the links to Amy's books, her website, and more in the show notes, so be sure to check them out.

00;39;50;20 - 00;40;03;08
James
Also, be sure to subscribe to Lattes & Art and show your support by leaving a rating and comments. Until next time. I'm James William Moore and this has been Lattes & Art presented by J-Squared Atelier.