The Female Form: A visit to the Palm Springs Art Museum

On this episode of  Lattes & Art, James  & Jeff  are on the road to the Palm Springs Art Museum for a walk-through of The Female Form, an exhibition pairing works by Tom Wesselmann and Mickalene Thomas from the collection of the Jordan B. Schnitzer and Family Foundation. What starts as a museum visit quickly opens into a deeper conversation about gaze, power, objectification, presence, agency, and how differently the female body can be framed depending on who is making the image. As they move through the galleries, James and Jeff unpack discomfort, beauty, fragmentation, personality, intimacy, and self-possession, asking what happens when the female form is presented as fantasy, fragment, presence, or power. Then, back in the studio, they reflect on what stayed with them after leaving the museum, what felt unresolved, and how our ways of seeing art — and each other — shift over time. Be sure to check the show notes for images captured in the museum of the works discussed in the episode.

Link to images talked about in the episode:

https://j2atelier.com/podcast-extras

J-Squared Atelier, LLC
For the love of art

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Transcript

00;00;08;14 - 00;00;36;19
James
There are museum visits where you walk through, read the wall, text and leave with a neat little opinion. And then there are visits that stay a little unsettled, the kind where the work doesn't just ask whether something is beautiful. It asks who that beauty was built for, who gets looked at, who gets to look back, and what changes when the person making the image changes to.

00;00;36;22 - 00;01;06;26
James
In this episode, Jeff Snyder and I are walking through the female form at the Palm Springs Art Museum, an exhibition that brings Tom Wesselmann and Mickalene Thomas into conversation through the long loaded history of the female form and art. The works presented in this exhibition are curated from the Jordan B. Schnitzer and his Family Foundations collection, and what unfolds during this visit isn't just a conversation about style or taste.

00;01;07;00 - 00;01;38;13
James
It becomes a conversation about gaze, power, objectification, presence, agency, and the difference between a body being displayed and a person being fully there. Welcome to Lattes & Art, presented by J-Squared Atelier, where we talk about art, creativity, and the ideas that keep both of them alive. I'm James William Moore, and this is a museum conversation. It doesn't stay in the museum for long.

00;01;38;15 - 00;01;58;05
James
So today we're doing something a little bit different. We're here at the Palm Springs Art Museum seeing the female form, which is a combination of Tom Musselman and Nicholson Thomas's work. And this collection's coming from the Jordan Schnitzer and his family foundation. And with me is Jeff Snyder. Thanks for joining me, Jeff.

00;01;58;06 - 00;02;00;08
Jeff
Hi. It's my pleasure.

00;02;00;11 - 00;02;22;14
James
You're in. And as we start looking at some of this, one of the first questions I want you to think about is who is looking and who is being looked at. So this isn't our first time seeing this. We were here a couple of weeks back and wandered through. Do you have any thoughts from back then before we jump into this?

00;02;22;16 - 00;02;23;24
James
Yeah.

00;02;23;26 - 00;02;33;14
Jeff
Okay. A couple of things that right away striking that I saw last time. We walk in and there's a quote from Tom Wesselmann and it just sits wrong with me.

00;02;33;17 - 00;02;46;24
James
For many years, trying especially from the new, was a desperate attempt to capture something. The significance of the beauty of the woman was confronted with. It was also frustrating because the beauty of the woman is so elusive.

00;02;46;26 - 00;03;02;16
Jeff
He's confronted by the beauty and the beauty is so elusive. Women are this unknown thing. They're a mystery. I'm sorry. It just feels wrong. Aren't women just people? But he's viewing them as an object.

00;03;02;16 - 00;03;03;04
James
Or an object.

00;03;03;10 - 00;03;08;28
Jeff
Understood. So that right away just feels a little unsettling.

00;03;09;01 - 00;03;26;07
James
Well, and, you know, I want to make a note now to. We are looking at this exhibit, two men going through it. And there's always been that piece of art history that it's the male's point of view. It's the male gaze. And this quote absolutely falls into that, doesn't it?

00;03;26;08 - 00;03;38;15
Jeff
Oh boy, does it. And the first piece that we see, it's titled Bedroom Face and it's a closeup of a woman. It looks like it's the same woman two different ways. Actually.

00;03;38;17 - 00;03;53;11
James
That's an interesting color that you're seeing because he falls into that pop art category, which is about repetition and repeatability. We think of Andy Warhol making screenprint after screenprint after screenprint.

00;03;53;12 - 00;03;54;05
Jeff
Oh, sure. Okay.

00;03;54;12 - 00;04;17;10
James
So he is in that same sort of category of printmaking and doing. And you're right, these two images, other than the eyes being closed. The thing that I noticed with the one you call that about the woman’s face, she's clearly in the middle of, yes, something is going on, and suddenly it's sexualizing.

00;04;17;17 - 00;04;18;16
Jeff
A completely the.

00;04;18;16 - 00;04;37;04
James
Views that I have looking at this. And you started to say something as we stepped in here about the two artists. And I think I do want to talk about that for a second. We wandered off to the left and we're confronted with Muscleman work.

00;04;37;06 - 00;05;01;25
Jeff
And clearly these are women to be admired. They're women in poses ready to welcome us in. You have very distinct tan lines on some of them. And the thing I see in pretty much every single picture here in the section or standing is nipples. I can't avoid the fact that we're looking at nipples everywhere. Our attention is drawn to it through the tan lines, through the different colors he uses.

00;05;01;27 - 00;05;03;17
Jeff
It feels like they're highlighted.

00;05;03;19 - 00;05;31;04
James
Well, and the male gaze comes back in. Right. This is a man that's looking out, and he is sexualizing and compulsively even fantasizing about who his subject is. So I mentioned the piece about pop art and repetition and that sort of thing. And they've had these examples, of Warhol and Lichtenstein there. Yeah, with one of Wasserman's in the middle.

00;05;31;06 - 00;05;38;03
James
We can see how this fits into pop art. Let me rephrase that. Can you see how this fits into pop art?

00;05;38;10 - 00;05;57;23
Jeff
It's very much primary colors, almost a paint by number approach to it, which to me feels very pop art. And that's a style that shows up a lot. It's not his only style. True. But I see a good deal of that. Yes. Should I be a little unsettled that it's all right next to a picture of Jackie O.

00;05;57;26 - 00;06;16;12
James
Yes. We have a woman. His dress or expose, and the tan line that you were talking about, bringing attention to that next to a screen print that Warhol did. Jackie Onassis after JFK had been assassinated.

00;06;16;19 - 00;06;17;05
Jeff


00;06;17;08 - 00;06;32;07
James
So do you find it unsettling coming in to an exhibit like this where Wasserman's work is together, like it is, and it kind of forces my words, forces the issue of the male gaze.

00;06;32;09 - 00;06;53;26
Jeff
40 years ago, it wouldn't even entered my mind. I would have walked in and thought, oh, here's a bunch of pictures. He painted a lot of nudes. And these are the women in the studio with today's sensibilities. It feels very different because it just feels very objectifying. But I wouldn't have thought that 40 years back. But here we even have a picture of a foot.

00;06;53;28 - 00;07;02;00
Jeff
It's just a foot. Yeah. But even that is meant to be seductive because we've got the nail polish and maybe a little reflective.

00;07;02;02 - 00;07;26;14
James
Well in the this image. Again it's in that pop art style right. Very color blocky feeling printed. But is that foot coming out of the bathtub? Is that a bubble bath that she's lounging in? Because there's the white bubbling that's happening on the bottom. And somehow I don't get the impression it's clouds.

00;07;26;17 - 00;07;32;21
Jeff
He very definitely idolizes women for the female form. I should say female form.

00;07;32;24 - 00;07;34;14
James
Is that a bad thing?

00;07;34;17 - 00;07;44;14
Jeff
Not necessarily, but I don't feel these are done respectfully. These aren't individuals who are supposed to recognize these are not women he knows. These are.

00;07;44;17 - 00;08;03;19
James
So interesting. It's interesting you bring that piece up because there's actually this actually is a woman. He knows he had relationships with her when he was at Cooper Union, and the two of them became lovers in the late 60s.

00;08;03;22 - 00;08;09;27
Jeff
Well, I'm not getting a lot of personality through these pictures. I guess.

00;08;10;00 - 00;08;17;13
James
It's interesting too. Okay, so there's no personality. Does that dehumanize the female?

00;08;17;15 - 00;08;41;14
Jeff
Well, the picture that we're standing in front of right now, he's given her entire body, but there's no face. We just see lips. So there are no eyes. There's no facial expressions. But we see her breasts. We see pubic hair. She's spread out, ready for him, I assume. For him. Yeah, but there's absolutely nothing in the face for anybody to recognize.

00;08;41;16 - 00;08;46;23
Jeff
So, yeah, I think that dehumanizes. You're not supposed to think of her as a personality.

00;08;46;26 - 00;08;57;26
James
Well, it becomes the object, right? You. You are drawn to an object. You fantasize about an object.

00;08;57;28 - 00;09;00;03
Jeff
Well, I don't.

00;09;00;05 - 00;09;02;23
James
But I wonder.

00;09;02;25 - 00;09;08;03
Jeff
I just think you want to say that the one reference to a male.

00;09;08;06 - 00;09;38;11
James
We have a penis, an erect penis and an erect penis. And it's in line with other points, but it looks like on the two ends on the right side, we have a female that is blond, and on the left side we have a brunet. Are we creating a thought process here that takes us into, you know, a throuple or a threesome?

00;09;38;13 - 00;09;44;22
James
Right. And this is all part of his bedroom series, which very much.

00;09;44;25 - 00;09;47;09
Jeff
And the other two pieces in this stretch of five.

00;09;47;11 - 00;10;21;14
James
Well, and what I find interesting about. So the window of time of his bedroom series started in the late 60s and went through the early 80s. So it was in that era of free love, open as the summer of love. All of that kind of thing. But as we started getting into the 80s, there was more of this rigid ness that was coming about and the sexuality wasn't here.

00;10;21;16 - 00;10;26;00
James
Or was it? Do you remember? I mean, we were both 80s kids now.

00;10;26;05 - 00;10;46;09
Jeff
Okay. So this stretch, the individual pieces, there is a breast, there is a foot comes back again, we have nipples and we have the bedroom face shows up again. Yeah. So this is a happy time for him.

00;10;46;11 - 00;11;05;11
James
So this exhibit's broken into different sections. And so in the middle, we're kind of skirting around that. And the museum now presents other works of art by artists who have also considered the female form.

00;11;05;14 - 00;11;09;16
Jeff
Well, Judy Dade, or do we know anything about her? I love this photo.

00;11;09;18 - 00;11;23;13
James
Isn't it great? So, Judy, Data's Imogene and Twink, a Yosemite. You have a nude that's kind of hiding behind a tree, and we have an older one. Then that's a little Puritan as well.

00;11;23;16 - 00;11;51;05
Jeff
Okay, I have you haven't given it a full picture. The young, the nude is a very young, blond, attractive woman who is kind of hiding, but not entirely. And from around the tree. A much older woman, I'm guessing, in her 80s, who is wearing very conservative clothing. Is that a camera she's got? And it looks like she's been a little bit surprised by the view of this nude and the contrast of the two women.

00;11;51;07 - 00;11;52;18
Jeff
I think it's wonderful.

00;11;52;20 - 00;12;00;15
James
Well, and don't miss the camera hanging on the older woman. Right. A tourist in a cemetery up to shoot some major.

00;12;00;17 - 00;12;05;01
Jeff
Yeah. And here we are. Not natural.

00;12;05;04 - 00;12;11;18
James
But the idea that the nude and art has existed, it goes all the way back. Right. We have from the Renaissance.

00;12;11;18 - 00;12;17;18
Jeff
So some of the first sculptures that exist are of the female form.

00;12;17;20 - 00;12;24;20
James
And, and it's been something that has been predominantly presented by men.

00;12;24;23 - 00;12;48;02
Jeff
Okay. We're as you say in another section of the gallery towards the back. And here we have different artists depicting female nudes. But there's nothing sexual about these. They're women just being natural. So suddenly you can actually do something very attractive, something very artistic. That's not about sex.

00;12;48;05 - 00;13;00;09
James
I found this exhibit interesting the first time we visited, and that it reminded me of a conversation I had in the class when I was at San Jose State with a student that was working with.

00;13;00;09 - 00;13;01;29
Jeff
The nude, the.

00;13;01;29 - 00;13;21;17
James
Female nude, but he was calling it pornographic. And one of the professors and I worked through the process to help them understand the difference. And typically with pornography, it's about pleasure. It's about.

00;13;21;19 - 00;13;27;13
Jeff
It's prurient. It's you're seeing something that maybe you're not supposed to see or want to be involved in.

00;13;27;15 - 00;13;33;10
James
So does Wesselmann's fall into that idea.

00;13;33;13 - 00;13;39;00
Jeff
When you call yourself an artist, the rules are a little bit different, aren't they?

00;13;39;03 - 00;13;45;04
James
What? What's the fifth? Is it the fifth that I'm supposed to plead right now?

00;13;45;07 - 00;13;55;04
Jeff
Okay, I like this. We're in front of a torso right now. Eve Klein, Venus blue. And it's an Irish royal blue torso.

00;13;55;06 - 00;14;02;25
James
And, And once again, thanks so much. What's amazing is it's cast plaster. I would not have guessed that.

00;14;02;26 - 00;14;04;14
Jeff
It looks like it's fabric wrapped.

00;14;04;15 - 00;14;07;27
James
Yeah, it's just beautiful. It's pigment.

00;14;07;29 - 00;14;11;05
Jeff
I love the color right away. Yeah, but.

00;14;11;07 - 00;14;31;16
James
It's cobalt, right? It just feels like that cobalt glass. Almost. But also, I mean, look at how the lighting hits this and creates shadows to give us outlines and shape and form to this torso. That's beautifully created.

00;14;31;19 - 00;14;42;25
Jeff
You know, I like this a lot. The one in the corner feels almost Gorgon. Is it? Is that what I'm thinking? That's why I had to come over and. Yeah, see who it was.

00;14;42;27 - 00;14;58;03
James
We wandered over to the corner. Were still in that kind of next artist group now, and we're looking at a painting by Frederick Hammersley. And Jeff was feeling it was a go again. And why was that?

00;14;58;05 - 00;15;05;02
Jeff
The colors, the the ethnicity of the woman.

00;15;05;04 - 00;15;13;12
James
Because it feels like the, the Polynesian, the two huge. And when he went to the islands all of that.

00;15;13;14 - 00;15;14;20
Jeff
Yeah.

00;15;14;22 - 00;15;20;10
James
But notice the muted ness of the color on here. It feels almost smoky.

00;15;20;13 - 00;15;20;23
Jeff
Yeah.

00;15;20;26 - 00;15;48;08
James
And his wasn't that it was a little sharper edged than this. This is coming closer to being more realistically drawn in the color tones. Although they draw or I, I don't feel like again. But I was thinking that too when I first saw it. Why don't we wonder? And to the Mickalene Thomas side.

00;15;48;11 - 00;15;51;19
Jeff
Us right away. Very mixed media.

00;15;51;21 - 00;15;53;05
James
Absolutely mixed media.

00;15;53;05 - 00;15;56;08
Jeff
Painted on a mirror with is that glitter?

00;15;56;10 - 00;16;01;27
James
It's glitter. It's rhinestone rhinestones. It's beads, it's fabric. Okay.

00;16;01;28 - 00;16;03;23
Jeff
This is a woman with attitude.

00;16;03;26 - 00;16;04;19
James
Right?

00;16;04;21 - 00;16;15;21
Jeff
There's a lot of presence coming from this woman. She is not to be trifled with, but she's surrounded by cushy pillows and animal prints. And so she's dressed.

00;16;15;24 - 00;16;43;11
James
This one's titled Something You Can Feel. It's from 2024. So Mickalene Thomas is an incredible artist that is black and in the LGBT community. And so already looking at this first one, it's an entirely different feel of how we're given the person to look at the female form.

00;16;43;14 - 00;16;46;24
Jeff
This is a woman who's commanding a little bit of respect from us.

00;16;46;26 - 00;16;48;24
James
Yes, absolutely.

00;16;48;27 - 00;16;50;24
Jeff
And it's not all about nipples.

00;16;50;27 - 00;16;52;08
James
It's not all about nipples.

00;16;52;13 - 00;16;54;22
Jeff
Which is a nice change.

00;16;54;24 - 00;16;57;19
James
I'm going to have to put the explicit on this.

00;16;57;21 - 00;16;58;28
Jeff
Do I need to back off of the nipples?

00;16;58;28 - 00;17;00;26
James
Oh, Lord. No.

00;17;00;28 - 00;17;16;11
Jeff
The gallery we just came from. You couldn't avoid. Okay. It's interesting how she plays with colors and black and white. It's. I think you've talked about in the past how she does collage, but does this qualify as collage because it's all the same?

00;17;16;17 - 00;17;39;05
James
Oh, absolutely. It's the same photograph. But she is collaging different sections of the photo. Some are black and white, some are color. She's adding edits of screen printing. She's adding fabrics. And again the rhinestones appear. So yes, this is absolutely a collage multimedia collage.

00;17;39;08 - 00;17;47;20
Jeff
And as a group of women just enjoying each other's company, they're out on a picnic at the DeGeneres. So they're a a Fort Greene?

00;17;47;26 - 00;17;50;10
James
Yes. And lunch?

00;17;50;12 - 00;17;51;29
Jeff
Yeah. And the gardens.

00;17;52;02 - 00;17;55;01
James
Think about mayonnaise.

00;17;55;03 - 00;18;00;21
Jeff
Well, Manet, wasn't that a bunch of men in very Victorian suits?

00;18;00;26 - 00;18;02;12
James
Students? Yes.

00;18;02;14 - 00;18;05;26
Jeff
Women spread out among them. As if this is a just a natural thing.

00;18;06;00 - 00;18;13;16
James
Exactly. Having lunch in the greens. When she was looking, she was painted to face you. The viewer.

00;18;13;18 - 00;18;14;15
Jeff


00;18;14;17 - 00;18;21;19
James
Everybody else was engaging amongst themselves in the painting. But the nude woman looking at us, the viewer.

00;18;21;21 - 00;18;28;00
Jeff
I'm trying to remember in that one. Is she inviting us in, is she noticing that we're watching her. What's that?

00;18;28;00 - 00;18;50;05
James
What it is. Well, I don't see the intention. No, that's that's the beauty of that piece. Everyone gets to interpret what's going on because this goes back to the male gaze. Is she inviting us in? Is she conversing with us? Is there something more to it? And that's kind of left for us to determine? There's been lots of theory.

00;18;50;07 - 00;18;56;26
Jeff
In this case. We. I feel like we've interrupted their lunch and they're just saying hi. Here we are.

00;18;56;29 - 00;19;01;23
James
Well, and almost like that, looking at us, inviting us to be a part of their picnic.

00;19;02;01 - 00;19;04;00
Jeff
Potentially, yeah.

00;19;04;03 - 00;19;06;01
James
It's a power shift.

00;19;06;03 - 00;19;13;25
Jeff
Well, it's their picnic. And if we came in, we would clearly be an addition to already a full scene. We're in their.

00;19;13;25 - 00;19;31;18
James
Space. Yeah. Yeah. I like the empowerment of that. So now up to this point, we've seen a few so far of Mickalene’s work, but none of them have dealt with the nude. And now we're presented one that is a nude form and.

00;19;31;18 - 00;19;33;07
Jeff
It's an intimate scene.

00;19;33;08 - 00;19;44;19
James
It's a very intimate scene, and it's not sexualizing in any way. And is that inherent to the female eye versus the male eye?

00;19;44;21 - 00;19;59;17
Jeff
Well, in this case, it has to be because the only I were given is a female eye. Ideally, a man could present women respectfully, but that's not the gallery that we walked out of. No.

00;19;59;20 - 00;20;30;03
James
But we did see some paintings in the mixed artist section that were, you know, very different, feel like male artists and it was a different feeling. So let me ask the question before we go on about that with pop art. Seduction versus critique. His work simply indulges Wasserman's work, simply indulges in beauty and erotic display. Or is it critiquing the image economy that produces those ideals?

00;20;30;05 - 00;20;32;14
Jeff
Was he being ironic? You're asking.

00;20;32;14 - 00;20;33;19
James
Kind of.

00;20;33;21 - 00;20;39;00
Jeff
Was that an art thing back then? Is today many people do something to be ironic?

00;20;39;06 - 00;20;44;16
James
Yes. Or satirical or any of those other things that.

00;20;44;16 - 00;20;50;20
Jeff
I didn't get the feeling that he was making social commentaries from them. He was enjoying it.

00;20;50;23 - 00;20;55;11
James
Yeah. Me either. And I don't think he needs to be given a pass either for it.

00;20;55;14 - 00;20;59;26
Jeff
It's easy to say times were different then, but.

00;20;59;29 - 00;21;12;08
James
As we now. So I love just the vibrancy that comes off of these prints and collages that she's made.

00;21;12;10 - 00;21;28;24
Jeff
We're looking at the object of the picture, which is clearly a nude woman in the middle of a setting, but we're also looking at the textures around her and the pillows and the wall. And it's not just about her, it's also about her surrounding with, again, with something that was not the case.

00;21;28;26 - 00;21;33;16
James
Correct. Because the bedroom. Most likely his bedroom.

00;21;33;19 - 00;21;34;15
Jeff


00;21;34;17 - 00;21;54;24
James
And with this she is taking up space in her space. And we are given that with the floral fabrics and the embracing of the idea. And now this person, this photograph feels like it's from the 70s.

00;21;54;26 - 00;21;55;12
Jeff


00;21;55;15 - 00;22;09;01
James
And the surrounding fabrics kind of lead us there too. So this photograph is untitled left behind again two. Now with that title do you see it any differently.

00;22;09;03 - 00;22;16;06
Jeff
I probably should, but nothing is coming to mind. Left behind two again.

00;22;16;08 - 00;22;24;20
James
Does it change it trend. Because when I first saw it felt as if I was being welcomed into her space. And now with this title. Yeah.

00;22;24;21 - 00;22;26;05
Jeff
We're leaving.

00;22;26;08 - 00;22;53;13
James
Does it change the mood at all. It does for me also. She feels almost sad where when I first saw this, I wasn't seeing her sad. It's amazing what the name on a piece of art can do. What I appreciate about her work is that although rhinestones and glitter and sparkle comes in to a lot of it, it's not cliché.

00;22;53;14 - 00;22;57;23
James
It's not a go to for her that it's like, oh, let's just throw some glitter.

00;22;57;28 - 00;22;59;06
Jeff
And it's not overdone. It's not.

00;22;59;06 - 00;23;22;08
James
Superfluous. No, no, everything feels like it has a place and a reason in every one of the classes. I love how we're wrapping around. We're coming to the end of the hallway that had the Mickalene Thomas works, and there are portraits that feel as if they've been completely crafted with rhinestones.

00;23;22;11 - 00;23;27;18
Jeff
Weren't you just saying that she doesn't do too much rhinestone? Only when it matters. Well, as.

00;23;27;20 - 00;23;29;18
James
I've often said, there's never enough glitter.

00;23;29;21 - 00;23;53;26
Jeff
Well, here you go. The Mickalene Thomas quote that's posted here. She gives a great deal of credit to Tom Wesselmann as an inspiration to her, because he fragments and reassembled the female body. And yes, she was doing that, but she wasn't focusing in on just one particular piece of the body. She was seeing those fragments as part of a whole.

00;23;53;29 - 00;24;01;07
Jeff
And in his case, I didn't get the sense that he saw it as a complete person.

00;24;01;14 - 00;24;23;15
James
Right. I felt yes, I felt it fragmented. I felt it broken. I felt it sexualized and sexualized, different pieces of the female form. Whereas with Mickalene Thomas, she is doing the same sort of fragmentation, but we never lose the full image.

00;24;23;18 - 00;24;35;17
Jeff
Very rarely do that. For girls and for me, for them.

00;24;35;19 - 00;24;59;13
James
So if there's anything that feels like it harkens to Thomas Woman's that's on the Mickalene Thomas side of this exhibit, it's this DVD video that they have playing where there's a woman that she's playing coy and silly and flirting and there's clearly someone there that she's welcoming to the self.

00;24;59;15 - 00;25;08;05
Jeff
But she has a personality. She's enjoying herself. She is. She's mugging for the camera to a degree.

00;25;08;08 - 00;25;10;00
Jeff
And then adjusting. But it's on her terms.

00;25;10;00 - 00;25;16;05
James
It's absolutely on her terms. Now, are we saying that because we're men? No, I'm.

00;25;16;05 - 00;25;25;15
Jeff
Looking at her. She is changing her mood. She may be responding to prompts from the photographer, but.

00;25;25;17 - 00;25;34;19
Jeff
She decides how she's going to sit. She is looking at us. She's laughing when it feels like she's laughing with us. Not on demand.

00;25;34;22 - 00;25;43;13
James
It's not a performance. Right. She is not performing for us.

00;25;43;15 - 00;25;52;03
James
Yeah. The beginning of the video though still to me feels like we've stepped into a 70s porn. But again is that what I've been taught to see?

00;25;52;05 - 00;26;06;28
Jeff
I see you as a stepping into the 70s with a photo shoot. It's a session that because she we just saw the photographer or the director walk across and she's responding to them, and we just happened to be observing.

00;26;07;00 - 00;26;13;17
James
Now adjacent to this is a wood paneled piece that is a portrait that Mickalene has done of.

00;26;13;17 - 00;26;17;09
Jeff
Of exactly the woman we're looking at. And it's all sequins and colors.

00;26;17;15 - 00;26;26;20
James
It's beautiful. And the tone of the wood comes through and adds to the whole piece.

00;26;26;23 - 00;26;35;09
James
So do you feel there's a sense between these two spaces of a culture shift?

00;26;35;12 - 00;27;10;21
Jeff
Oh, clearly. Clearly one side. Not only was it, it was all on what I was going to say. It's all on his terms there. But on the Thomas side, it's on her terms as well. But the feels a little bit more you know, the, the ultra conservatives would say it feels very woke because we're actually showing respect many ages, many shapes and shapes and sizes represented.

00;27;10;24 - 00;27;16;20
Jeff
But not one of these to me feel like they're being used or being objectified.

00;27;16;23 - 00;27;18;21
James
Well and almost celebrated.

00;27;18;26 - 00;27;21;08
Jeff
Oh, absolutely.

00;27;21;10 - 00;27;53;12
James
There's something for me of the cultural sense that when I come through Mickalene's work, I feel like I'm. I'm being educated more and showing more of a culture that I haven't been entirely introduced to or familiar with. And I think that helps me find that there's a cultural celebration through her work that I don't get from lessons.

00;27;53;14 - 00;28;09;24
Jeff
Or what I'm getting from hers, is these are all women with personalities. And from his side, I wasn't getting any personalities at all. I don't think I was expected or intended to draw personalities from from objectified.

00;28;09;26 - 00;28;11;07
James
Faceless.

00;28;11;09 - 00;28;21;05
Jeff
Absolutely faceless. So if I had to decorate my living room, it would definitely be from the Thomas side, not from the western side.

00;28;21;08 - 00;28;28;04
James
Well, funny you should say that, because we're actually getting to of her most recent release prints.

00;28;28;06 - 00;28;31;07
Jeff
Well, yay!

00;28;31;09 - 00;28;33;25
Jeff
We're not getting any worse on this, are we? No. Okay, good.

00;28;33;29 - 00;28;35;29
James
No, that's not our style.

00;28;36;00 - 00;28;37;11
Jeff
Well, no. Then you can hang hers.

00;28;37;11 - 00;28;51;12
James
That's right. That's never been our style. Well, Jeff, thank you so much for touring through with me today and experiencing for the second time the exhibit with Mickalene, Thomas and Tom Wesselmann.

00;28;51;14 - 00;29;10;05
Jeff
It's my pleasure. I enjoy this museum a lot, and being able to come and take a look at these with you gives me a chance to be a little bit more thoughtful and understand why I feel a little uneasy with some of them, and much more comfortable with the others. So thanks.

00;29;10;07 - 00;29;38;04
James
Walking through the galleries, a lot of our reactions were immediate. Some works hit with discomfort right away. Some invited a slower kind of looking and some raised questions we didn't quite have time to fully sit with while we were moving through the space. So after the museum, Jeff and I brought the conversation back into the studio because sometimes that's where the real unpacking begins.

00;29;38;07 - 00;30;03;10
James
Not in front of the wall label, but after the fact. When you've had a little distance and the images are still hanging around in your head. In the studio, we talk more directly about what stayed with Jeff, but felt unresolved. What changed as a viewer over time, and why? Some images feel like imitation, while others feel like access without permission.

00;30;03;12 - 00;30;14;07
James
So Jeff, at the start you said the show felt divided, almost like a case study. What did you mean by that? And do you feel that way now?

00;30;14;10 - 00;30;34;03
Jeff
It absolutely still to me feels very much. I don't know if I'd still say case study, but absolutely felt divided. There were two very distinct shows going on in one environment, two different artists. So automatically there's going to be a difference in style. And the way it's presented invites you, almost demands that you compare them, but also two different eras.

00;30;34;05 - 00;31;05;28
Jeff
They did all of their work in very different times. So society was different. Attitudes were different. Expectations of the artists were different, very different media. His was, as you said at the time, kind of pop art in a style, whereas hers was collage, starting with photographs and very clearly pulling actual images rather than idealized body parts. So the whole show, everything about it invited compare and contrast and whether there was an explicit lesson in there or not.

00;31;06;00 - 00;31;09;06
Jeff
There were a lot of things to highlight as contrast.

00;31;09;08 - 00;31;34;25
James
I like how you presented that because you know, this comparison, right? There was these two different sides to it. And the museum. I believe their intention was to, in fact, have that conversation between the two to present two different sides of how the female form is brought through in art. I like that you're seeing it as a comparison, because I think that's fair to say.

00;31;34;25 - 00;31;40;18
James
We looked at these two artists, we saw vast differences in how they saw the female form. Agreed.

00;31;40;22 - 00;31;41;14
Jeff
Absolutely.

00;31;41;20 - 00;31;52;25
James
Do you feel that the curation was balanced, or do you feel like one of the artists got the short end of the stick, or was favored?

00;31;52;29 - 00;32;19;19
Jeff
I don't believe one was favored over another. I don't feel there was a competition between them. It wasn't a contest, so I don't think there was any winner or loser in this. But I do think that it invited us to think about how we viewed art and women and the world around us. 40 years ago versus today, and what was seen as acceptable and appropriate and really common, then we wouldn't.

00;32;19;22 - 00;32;34;10
Jeff
Not only could we not get away with it now, but I don't think we would want to get away with it now because we're just more aware. So I think it was about inviting and encouraging the viewer to think about how they've changed and how their expectations have changed when they view art, I like that.

00;32;34;16 - 00;32;42;11
James
So there was that quote, the Wesselmann one that was at the entrance. What about that language bothered you most?

00;32;42;17 - 00;33;04;10
Jeff
I don't remember the exact words, and I'm okay not remembering it because I didn't want to carry it with me. It was something like, I find the beauty of women to be this inscrutable thing confronted. Yeah. I'm sorry. Half of society is going to look at that and think, I am a person. I'm just an individual. What is wrong with you that you can't understand?

00;33;04;10 - 00;33;22;08
Jeff
And unravel me? I'm just a person and being seen as othered as a very first quote, hanging on the wall as you walk in. Oh, yeah, I'm this mysterious thing that you're not going to understand. Now, if you took a little time and actually listened to the women in your life, maybe you'd understand them a little bit more.

00;33;22;10 - 00;33;28;11
Jeff
So that was I wanted to reach out and slap him, but that's probably he's not available for that to happen.

00;33;28;11 - 00;33;45;05
James
So one of the descriptions we used when we were looking at his work was the objectifying of the female form. What made you feel that? Was it the nudity? Was it the repetition? Was it the attitude?

00;33;45;10 - 00;34;08;14
Jeff
The only exposure of had to Wesselmann is really when I was aware that it was him was through this show. So there has been some selection by the curator based on what I've seen presented in this particular show. Nearly every single piece was a close up of one body part. There were only a couple out of what, 40 pieces hanging on the walls?

00;34;08;19 - 00;34;25;19
Jeff
There were only 2 or 3 that showed an entire body. Generally it was a tan line sections. It was pieces of. So I wasn't invited. I wasn't expected to see a whole individual. I was looking at a boob or a foot or.

00;34;25;19 - 00;34;26;22
Jeff
Repeatedly.

00;34;26;24 - 00;34;34;04
Jeff
A nipple. And it's hard to see this as anything but a series of objects and pieces and as you say, fragments.

00;34;34;09 - 00;34;58;12
James
And you called out to about. There's that one shot, that one print, that was the foot that was raising up, and the toenails were painted. And I suggested, you know, was the white at the bottom of the frame bubbles, because she's coming out of a bubble bath. This kind of gets into one of these academic sort of institution artsy fartsy questions.

00;34;58;16 - 00;35;14;04
James
What does that tell you? As someone who hasn't really studied a lot of art, like you've taken art classes in college in that, but thinking about what you saw, do you see this as how desire gets coded visually?

00;35;14;09 - 00;35;36;23
Jeff
As you say, it's not. I don't come from that world. I would never phrase it that way. But the entire Wesselmann portion of the exhibition was about desire. We were seeing things that he wanted or he liked or he was focusing in on, and he was directing us what to look at, and he wasn't choosing it because it's a shapely foot, or let's see if I can do a great depiction of a big toe.

00;35;36;29 - 00;35;59;19
Jeff
It was, ooh, look at this. Oh, I bet I can make her stretch with desire and reach for the heavens. I just felt that it was all about his desires. Now I'm gay, so I don't have the same desires. But I got a really clear sense on what he was wanting from his his models.

00;35;59;20 - 00;36;30;29
James
I want to kind of a transition now from Wesselmann to Mickalene Thomas and this idea of the fragmented, you know, the sectioned body parts, the foot, the torso, the tan line, the groin area, these things that Wasserman absolutely was fragmenting. But then as we started to look at Mickalene's work, we were seeing kind of a fragmentation through the collage of what she was doing, were we not?

00;36;31;04 - 00;36;55;26
Jeff
Yes. But no. First, a lot of her pieces presented the entire body and she didn't explicitly tell us as a viewer, look here, this is the part to focus on. This is what I want. We were given an entire person, an entire environment, and we could decide what we're focusing on. The pieces you call it the collages. There were a number that were headshots, but even then it was the full face.

00;36;55;28 - 00;37;14;23
Jeff
We actually had an individual we were looking at and we weren't told, here are the lips with no face added to it, no eyes to reflect back. We were given the entire visage, and it's for us to look at the face and see that there's a person back there, which is something that I never got from the Wesselmann side of the house.

00;37;15;01 - 00;37;25;05
James
You even called out as we started to see Mickalene’s work, as we came into that space, that there were personalities that just radiated.

00;37;25;06 - 00;37;45;12
Jeff
Absolutely. There were some of the images we were talking about it at the time. Some of the the women depicted were challenging us a little defiant, here I am. What do you want to make of it? There were others that. Here I am. Come let's chat. Or oh, you've interrupted our picnic. But that's okay. Have a seat. You got different senses from each of them.

00;37;45;12 - 00;37;53;20
Jeff
And I actually likes that about her work, because it's clear that these are individuals. There are personalities. There are. It's more than just bodies.

00;37;53;22 - 00;38;04;06
James
Well, and it invites us in to the space that that person with a personality is sitting in. And we feel part of it.

00;38;04;09 - 00;38;29;01
Jeff
There's something to be said for art that's pretty to look at, but there's a whole different classification of art where you feel like you're part of the scene. And I got the feeling from hers that that's our role. She, as a photographer, wasn't staging something across the room and she's going to take a nice, balanced picture. She was part of it and she was engaging with the models and she was inviting us to do the same.

00;38;29;02 - 00;38;31;01
Jeff
That was the feeling I got from a whole lot of them.

00;38;31;08 - 00;38;42;00
James
We saw this exhibit yesterday. We've had a chance to kind of mull over what we saw. What stayed with you after you left the museum?

00;38;42;03 - 00;39;04;26
Jeff
There was one piece that we actually talked about a good deal there. I'm going to butcher the French. It was called, designation there. But I think the picnic, it's for women. There's a really nice looking charcuterie plate with cheeses. And there it's for regular people sitting, enjoying each other's company. And we're kind of being invited into it.

00;39;05;01 - 00;39;27;23
Jeff
But it's one of those pictures that there's a story going on, and we've stepped into the middle of a scene that's playing out, and it's for us to decide, what are they talking about? What's their relationship, what comes next? Am I being invited in? Am I being tolerated? Am I being asked to please move along? There's so much going on in there that it was just an interesting piece, and it gave me things to think about.

00;39;27;26 - 00;39;41;28
Jeff
What did I just look at? What am I still looking at? Are they annoyed that I'm still looking at them? And it just it was more engaging than just looking at a static scene that's been staged for us to see and move on. So it was interesting for.

00;39;41;28 - 00;39;44;01
James
Me, it was that same image.

00;39;44;03 - 00;39;44;11
Jeff
Okay.

00;39;44;13 - 00;40;06;24
James
And I think it had a lot to do with how it is an appropriation of a manet. And in the Manet there is the nude woman that is sitting amongst the young men who are all dressed in their suits, very formal suits. Yes. And even though the woman is looking at us in that painting, there's something about it.

00;40;06;24 - 00;40;28;24
James
I have always felt that it's still an object ification of that individual, and I feel Mickalene has taken that and taken the power to the women that are sitting in that image that she is collaged. And yes, those women are looking at us just like the nude and the Manet, but it's a different look.

00;40;29;01 - 00;40;51;26
Jeff
The woman in the Manet is not in charge of the environment. It's clear that the men are the ones in charge, and they've invited her to be in that scene for a reason. She's not wearing clothes for a reason, and I don't think it was her design. In contrast, Mickalenes, they're all there because they want to be there, so it just feels like they have the power.

00;40;51;29 - 00;41;11;10
James
Yeah, right now I want to kind of wrap up this chat. You said while we were in the gallery that 40 years ago, we may not have. We probably wouldn't have the way it used to be of how the Wesselmann work would have been given.

00;41;11;13 - 00;41;12;27
Jeff
It would have been acceptable.

00;41;12;29 - 00;41;14;10
James
It would have been acceptable.

00;41;14;15 - 00;41;38;13
Jeff
I think what's really changed in the last 40 years is our awareness. There has always been objectification. There's always been racism, there's always been bigotry around us. But I think we're more sensitized to it now. We're more ready to call it out. Once you start realizing how much of this is going on, it's hard to open a magazine and not look at an ad and think, oh, that's a little offensive.

00;41;38;13 - 00;42;02;15
Jeff
Or they didn't run this past a whole lot of people before they published that picture, did they? And it's always been the case to a degree. It will be around for a much longer time, but I think we're more attuned to it now. We're more aware of this going on, and I think that level of sensitivity, recognizing that a woman is going to see that quote, you know, going back to that thing that left me very annoyed right in the beginning.

00;42;02;15 - 00;42;25;06
Jeff
She's going to see the quote and think, what the hell are you talking about? You don't understand the mystery of women. Ask me and I'm here. That attitude has always been there. But today he would probably have asked, tell me what's going on in your head so I actually can depict you properly on my on my page. I think we are more aware of what's going on and more sensitive to it now.

00;42;25;09 - 00;42;32;00
Jeff
There will always be Ding Dongs, but yeah, I think we're at a tolerance for dealing with the Ding Dongs has gone down.

00;42;32;07 - 00;42;58;19
James
Do you feel that the curation of this show, how they've hung it, two separate sides? Do you feel that this helps the general public, who may not study art in depth, get the lesson of the female form and that there are different ways to view it, and there's acceptable ways and there's other ways.

00;42;58;21 - 00;43;22;00
Jeff
I don't know that I'd go so far as to say acceptable and not acceptable, because go back 100 years, 200 years, the female form was depicted primarily by men, but it was perfection. It was idealized. The Virgin Mary was all over the place, but she was idealized. That wasn't what was going on in Wesselmann's because times it changed his view.

00;43;22;00 - 00;43;45;08
Jeff
It changed society. The Mad Men era. We approached it differently. We're approaching it differently now. I think that's a good thing. But 40 years from now, when we have different sensibilities, society's taken a different direction or progressed beyond wherever we're thinking now, are we going to look back at Mickalene Thomas and think, oh, she was so rudimentary in the way she was depicting this?

00;43;45;11 - 00;44;02;05
Jeff
Or will we start seeing men objectified? Much more so, as women used to be? Hard to say what's right or wrong, because it's all based on our context. I'm coming at it with today's sensibility, so I'm judging it with today's sensibility. In 40 years, I'll be a different person who knows what I'm going to think is good.

00;44;02;11 - 00;44;05;00
James
Well, and your perspective now is different than it was.

00;44;05;01 - 00;44;05;19
Jeff
Absolutely.

00;44;05;19 - 00;44;06;17
James
40 years back.

00;44;06;18 - 00;44;15;04
Jeff
I was a product of the advertising and television and everything that I saw back then. I would like to believe I've made a little bit of progress since then.

00;44;15;09 - 00;44;26;24
James
Do you feel that shows like this one are good for the public to see these different ways to see the female form, so we can do this sort of analysis and comparison ourselves?

00;44;26;24 - 00;44;50;12
Jeff
I do think this is useful, not just the female form, but also how we depict minorities or people of other cultures that we're not as familiar with. I assume that was the goal of the curator. There was no statement that I focused on from the curator about the purpose of the show and how it was laid out, but I'd like to believe that was we were being nudged in that direction.

00;44;50;12 - 00;44;55;29
James
I did that on purpose so that you wouldn't be led down a certain path.

00;44;56;02 - 00;44;59;02
Jeff
So are you telling me this is I was manipulated?

00;44;59;04 - 00;45;02;29
James
Do I manipulate?

00;45;03;01 - 00;45;04;24
Jeff
You're an artist. You have a message.

00;45;04;24 - 00;45;17;26
James
There you go. Jeff, thank you so much for this time. I appreciate your input because you definitely do come at art differently than I do, and I always love hearing someone else's voice and opinion on this stuff.

00;45;17;26 - 00;45;30;07
Jeff
Oh, this is a pleasure. And you do challenge me and make me think about things that sometimes I wouldn't have thought about. I thought I was just coming for a fun trip to the museum, but dang it, I have to think so. Thanks for that.

00;45;30;07 - 00;45;33;12
James
I think this is where I insert it's part of my charm.

00;45;33;14 - 00;45;37;26
Jeff
Lots of charm, lots of charm. No thank you. I enjoyed this.

00;45;37;28 - 00;46;03;00
James
Thanks for spending this time with us on Lattes & Art presented by J-Squared Atelier. What I love about a conversation like this is that it reminds us art doesn't have to give us one clean answer to be worth our time. Sometimes the value is in what sticks with us. What makes us think a little longer, what makes us see a little differently than when we did when we first walked in?

00;46;03;06 - 00;46;34;28
James
This exhibit gave Jeff and me a lot to sit with, not just about beauty or the body, but about presence, perspective, and how differently an image can feel depending on who made it and how they ask us to look at it. And honestly, that's part of why these conversations matter. I want to thank Jeff Snyder for joining me on this adventure through the museum, and be sure to check out the show notes to see images that we captured in the museum and the works we discussed.

00;46;35;00 - 00;46;46;00
James
Thanks for listening and for coming along with us. I'm James William Moore and until next time, keep looking, keep questioning, and keep making space for art and your life.