The Hidden Legacy of Ancestral Trauma: Is the past holding you back? With EFT Master & Researcher Mirjam Paninski

Have you ever felt that your emotional struggles might not originate from your own experiences? In our latest episode of the Manifestation Lab, we explore the influence of ancestral and generational trauma on our lives, shedding light on how the hidden legacies of the past shape our actions, reactions, and mental health. 

Joined by Mirjam Madhuri Paninski, a seasoned EFT master and founder of the Open Consciousness Institute, we discuss the profound ways in which these deeply rooted patterns can affect us, revealing how emotional and psychological wounds are inherited across generations.

As we delve into this topic, we take an insightful look into the science behind epigenetics—how trauma transforms the very fabric of our DNA, creating tags that influence our emotional responses. Through the lens of emotional freedom techniques, we explore how one can actively engage with their trauma and inherited pain, offering both healing and awareness. 

Miriam unlocks fascinating perspectives on emotional neglect that can linger even in seemingly ideal circumstances, helping listeners to navigate their own experiences while fostering radical self-compassion.

Miriam also emphasizes the importance of community and group work in the healing process. By bringing together individuals to tap into their shared experiences, we highlight the unique power of collective healing. As we unravel the intricate web connecting our histories, we invite listeners to step into the healing journey that is often more accessible than we think.

Ready to uncover the layers of your past? Join us in this transformative conversation, subscribe, and share this episode with someone who may benefit from these insights. Remember, you’re not alone on this journey, and every step along the way leads to a brighter, more liberated future!

To connect with Mirjam and learn more about working 1:1 or joining her healing community visit www.openconsciousnessinstitute.com or follow along @madhurimirjampan on IG.

Are you interested in becoming a certified EFT practitioner?  Doors are open for The Ultimate EFT Certification with EFT Universe March 3  Click here to learn about the 1 year certification process and start your journey today! 

Chapters

• 0:00 Welcome to the Manifestation Lab
• 21:45 Introduction to Miriam Madhuri Paninski
• 38:00 Ancestral vs. Generational Trauma
• 2:30:00 Exploring Karma and Generational Patterns
• 3:20:00 The Science Behind Epigenetics
• 6:16:00 How EFT Addresses Ancestral Trauma
• 11:30:00 Emotional Intelligence and Upper Middle
• 12:00:00 The Importance of Group Work in Healing
• 16:40:00 Addressing Subtle Emotional Neglect

Transcript

Kelly: 0:05

Welcome to the Manifestation Lab. This is your host, kelly Howe. From the grounded science to the mystical and unseen, we're investigating this big experiment we call life and finding what really works when it comes to manifesting a life that sets your heart and your soul on fire. Welcome to the lab. Hey, everyone, welcome back to the Manifestation Lab. Of course, this is your host, kelly. I'm really excited about my guest today and, as a fellow EFT-er, I think we're going to have a lot to talk about. Today we're talking to Miriam Madhuri Paninski. She is an EFT master, a trainer, meditation teacher, a healer, writer, a researcher she does so, so so many things. She's also the founder and CEO of Open Consciousness Institute and serves as Consciousness Programs Director and Trainer at EFT Universe. She's also worked with hundreds of clients and students, and we're going to talk about all of it, thank you. Thank you for being here. Welcome to the show.

Mirjam: 1:02

Thank you, kelly, I'm so excited to be here.

Kelly: 1:05

Yes. So what really caught my eye when I was introduced to you was well, so many things, you do, so many different modalities and you work with ancestral or generational trauma, and actually that was going to be one of my first questions Do you see a difference between ancestral trauma and generational trauma, like that verbiage? Is there any difference for you?

Mirjam: 1:29

I would say yes and no. I think they can be used interchangeably. After all, all of these terms are for me just placeholders, basically to talk about what patterns may have manifested within ourselves that may not be ours. Ancestral trauma just comes with more of, let's say, of an esoteric note to it, versus generational trauma, sounds a little bit more scientific or Western or kind of like it's more integrated and kind of like the Western psychological world. So I think there's like different connotations to it. But that connotation may make a difference for people, because with an ancestral trauma we can also, you know, talk about potential karmic patterns or whatever that is. That door is open to that conversation, basically, but they can also be exactly the same.

Kelly: 2:30

My listeners are probably a lot more woo-woo than some of them, so they love talking about things like karmic patterns. So can you speak to that a little bit more and how that might be passed down in generations through our ancestry?

Mirjam: 2:46

Yes, and I think there's like different. It is like it's a very complex. It's a great question, it's a very complex question and there's many layers we can, we can, we can talk about, I think, one very simple layer in general to talk about karma and kind of like. When we talk about karma in general, people are maybe scared about this being kind of like some kind of an act of punishment, basically of you know like a curse or something like that, but really it's kind of like cause and effect, that's all.

Mirjam: 3:20

it is Right.

Mirjam: 3:22

And that also can weave into a generational pattern, not in the sense that we inherit, so to say, the, the bad deeds of, of, of of our ancestors, in that sense.

Mirjam: 4:06

But what is the fact with ancestral trauma or with any kind of patterns there are, with any kind of like ancestral generational patterns, if a previous generation experienced something intense, any kind of like negative and positive, kind of like basically waves, or in a negative way, in a negative sense, shock waves basically of trauma or any kind of act, and that may even be kind of like intense senses of guilt and shame, these um patterns do get ingrained. And we again that's where we can talk about different layers but they also get ingrained into, uh, our genes as these epigenetic tags, so to say. So if we just kind of like stay on a scientific level, so that's basically if we, when we talk about science and karma, so to say, we can talk about kind of like generational karmic patterns in terms of these epigenetic tags that get handed down through, like now, science can prove at least three generation. I know, unlike many spiritual, spiritual senses, we're talking about at least seven generations. You know Sure.

Kelly: 4:55

I mean, it feels like like just it doesn't to me when we talk about how long it sticks around. It feels like how could there be an, how could there be an end to it? Like where does that? It's like anything with energy. It's like where is the beginning and end really? Where is the beginning? Why would something that happened maybe 10 generations back, why wouldn't that be carried through? Do they have any research on that or ideas on it? Because to me I'm like it seems like if it happened in our ancestry, it would just continue to move forward unless somebody does the healing work.

Mirjam: 5:24

I see it the same way, I think, like the research continuously kind of like expands on that, I think since 2008,. It was kind of like three generations and then it kind of like expanded Before it was also only through the maternal lineage kind of like have proof that the paternal lineage, through kind of like sperm, it's just as responsible basically for generational patterns. So I don't think there's a limit to it in that sense.

Mirjam: 5:57

So maybe it's just more that so far the studies have only gone back maybe like seven generations, I think, like science is often kind of like just catching up with where our awareness may already be in our intuitive healing circumstances, so to say yeah.

Kelly: 6:16

Can you talk to us a little bit more about those? First, what epigenetics is and what these epigenetic tags are, so that people get an idea of, like, what's actually happening?

Mirjam: 6:27

Yeah, and again, I don't want to get too much into the science because I'm a little bit, but I think it's, it's, it's, it's something, something that this is totally.

Kelly: 6:35

I have to be honest, this is like legitimately a selfish thing for me, because I'm writing a book and I'm actually working on this section, so I'm like I'm going to get everything I can.

Mirjam: 6:45

Yeah, yeah, no, no, absolutely, absolutely. So basically what we say about kind of traumatic patterns from our from previous generations is that these traumatic shock waves, basically of trauma that ripple through our genes, don't change the sequence of genes, but they kind of like just attach as these again, as these tags, as kind of like what can be called epigenetic tags that do kind of like have an influence on how these genes kind of like get expressed.

Kelly: 7:19

Yes, it's so fascinating.

Mirjam: 7:21

And right, and the interesting piece, though, is that there is and I kind of like have to change, I have to kind of like look into the recent numbers of this, but the interesting thing is that there has been these genes that what are they called? Again Kind of like have to look up these things, but it's basically what their chemical signals, these jack, these tags that cause adaptive changes in and attached to the DNA. That's basically. That's basically what they are. Also interesting about our DNA that we have the chromosomal DNA. Also interesting about our DNA that we have the chromosomal DNA that's kind of like responsible for, for instance, transmitting physical traits. You know, these chromosomal traits only make up 2% or less of our total DNA. Oh wow. The other 98% are non-coding DNA, and that's the DNA that's responsible for many emotional, behavioral, personality traits that we inherit. This was kind of like called I think science called this kind of garbage DNA because, it's kind of didn't interest science until like maybe two decades ago or something like that.

Mirjam: 8:37

That's wild Right.

Kelly: 8:39

Yeah, I mean it doesn't seem like nature makes mistakes, like oops 98%, just kind of like junk, just doesn't make sense.

Mirjam: 8:46

And the good news again for us is that that's kind of like that. That's the DNA that's also adaptive and changes. And this is why we kind of like have these studies, for instance, of identical twins that have the same astrological chart, you know, that have the same uh chromosomal DNA in in them, um, and they're they're born basically within the same 10 minutes, um, and all there is is kind of like differences in lifestyle later on. So one of them is kind of like, you know, doing therapy and meditation, kind of like watching their nutrition and all of these things, and the other one is not. And then you have one twin that has early Alzheimer's, that has all kinds of other issues, that has PTSD, even though they have the same history, versus the other one not having that history or that diagnosis anymore. So it's really fascinating.

Kelly: 9:43

It is so fascinating. It is so fascinating. So I'm curious is there any research being done specifically with EFT? And maybe you know, maybe you don't looking at, like, how is EFT specifically? Or somatic? I would say you know body centered therapies, because I just find it so important to get into the physical response that's happening. How is it going in and changing? Like, has there been any research? Is it changing those little tags on the DNA?

Mirjam: 10:13

So there has not been specific research in terms of like generational trauma and EFT, but I think we're going to do that or are we kind of like tackling that. But there's certainly been a lot of research in terms of epigenetics and whether it's kind of like so called regular trauma or generational trauma. As you know, what these share is stress, right is an automatic stress response in our body and whether it's generational or whether it's a trauma that we have experienced in our body, and whether it's generational or whether it's a trauma that we have experienced in our life, eft has just proven to be for me and again, I also have a background in EMDR and other techniques but it has just proven for me to be the number one technique to interrupt these patterns.

Kelly: 10:59

Yes, what I see with people that have done usually people have come to me that have already done a lot of work and not to say that I'm, like you know, the, the guru that can like break these patterns. But what they haven't done a lot of times is they've done a lot of um upper higher self work and haven't done that like nervous system deeper, getting into the physical reactions, and so it just seems like so many people, even if they've already done a lot of therapy and things, that's sort of like a missing piece that comes in they're like, oh my gosh, yeah, now I actually feel grateful. I don't have to just think that I'm grateful or that you know.

Mirjam: 11:33

Yes, yeah, and that's such. I mean, that's the whole difference and I see that too. I see that every day I work with a lot of clients that have done decades of work, that have one done decades of therapy often, and it's great that there is kind of like cognitive awareness, but the shift has to happen on a visceral level for it to be sustainable. Because we don't, we can't just think it, we have to feel it and we have to kind of bring our nervous system into the situation. And that's what EFT does of experiencing that counter conditioning, that safety. Because that's basically what we do. As you know, in EFT we expose ourselves to whatever is kind of like triggering us or harming us or kind of like that feels contracted, while we actively soothe our nervous system, and that changes that rewires, that integrates that new feeling into wow, okay, I actually feel different. I'm not going to forget these things. I'm not going to forget that these things happen, but they're no longer activated.

Kelly: 12:37

Yeah, and people get to keep the wisdom that came from it.

Mirjam: 12:42

The only only difference and I think that's where it's so interesting with ancestral trauma is the only difference with ancestral trauma, and that's kind of like what is what is so? Where my work ties into this is that with ancestral trauma justice, with pre-verbal or pre-cognitive trauma we don't have a memory, we don't have a reference and that's really confusing to our brain, because our brain, our human brain, our negativity biased brain, will not say, oh, I don't have a reference for this sensation, so I'm just going to let this go. It will kind of like basically tag everything as a threat. So in EFT we have that capacity to provide our brain a reference for these memories we don't have, yes, and that's kind of like how we can access that ancestral trauma in a really profound way, and so I want to make sure I'm hearing this.

Kelly: 13:38

When we're working on the activations, the contractions that we're feeling, we are working whether it came from this life or someplace else an ancestor. I'm a past life person too, so I'm like there's so many things that I think are influencing the way that we receive the world and the way we react to it. So when we're working on our everyday reactions even if our brain doesn't understand where it comes from we're still working on. We can be working on some of that ancestral and generational trauma too.

Mirjam: 14:05

Yeah, yeah that's the thing. Like they, they still manifest as very real feeling patterns in our daily life. Yeah uh, they just didn't origin, they didn't start with us it is.

Kelly: 14:18

I think that this is like the biggest conversation that I want to. Just, I want to like write a letter and send it to every human on the planet and just let people know that it maybe didn't start with you. You know, so the people that I work with typically not to say that they don't have trauma, but they come to me and they're like I have this pattern and I start explaining. You know, we need to go back and look at what's happened and where these patterns might come from, and so many of them say the same thing and they say, oh well, I had a, we had a pretty great childhood. You know, I don't.

Kelly: 14:48

I, I didn't really have any trauma, and of course, that's I. That's usually not the case. There's usually at least a few things that they've sort of either suppressed or don't call trauma, and I was one of those people too. I was definitely the person that's like oh, I mean, I had some really hard stuff, but like it wasn't traumatic, you know. So I think there's so many people walking around with these activations and these contractions and these reactions to people and to experiences that don't seek help for it because they're like I don't need it or I don't, you know, like I didn't really have any trauma. So why would I go do tapping or why would I go do EMDR? And I think this is the conversation that's like. This is why. Because those activations maybe didn't even come from this you know, from from you and your experiences.

Mirjam: 15:33

That too, but another layer that I want to bring into this, because when, when someone comes into my practice and says they had a great childhood and they didn't have a, that's for me a big ding, ding, ding, ding.

Kelly: 15:45

Yes.

Mirjam: 15:46

Yeah, and I think a really a really important conversation to bring into this. And this may be this life, but also again, ancestral, generational past life. That's a more previous conversation. That ties in also work of people like Gabor Mate is and that's specific to upper middle-class people, so to say, that say, well, you know, I'm, I'm well off and I haven't had any kind of like. I've had that kind of like white picket fence childhood, but can we talk about emotional neglect and where that starts and it's one of it's, it's, it's a, it's a, it's fascinating and it's complex and that's kind of like like that's the, that's the pervasive virus that goes through upper middle class families and it's it's the long term effects of that are shocking.

Mirjam: 16:50

Yes, Shocking.

Mirjam: 16:51

Okay, let's talk about that Because often if there's like an obvious trauma, you know it's, you know we can, we can go into this head on. If someone is coming to me and they're 45, or 50, 50 and they never got to even acknowledge that they suffered as a child, very subtly but continuously, feelings of isolation and loneliness and fighting for love and fighting for attention or approval, pleasing all of these things, and that continuously that's a systematic, complex trauma that forms itself. And to even get to that point then to say, wow, you know, I may not have been abused in an obvious way, but something happened.

Kelly: 17:40

Yes, I'm so, so glad that you are talking about that and I have never really looked at it quite in the way that you are explaining it, so thank you so much for that. So if somebody is listening and they're like, oh okay, this like maybe seemingly more subtle emotional neglect shown up in their life, you know, middle-class white picket fence, no quote, unquote real trauma. You know, is there anything that people can go?

Mirjam: 18:11

Okay, yeah, I mean you mentioned a few of them, like fighting for love, yeah, yeah, how has, how was love expressed in your family? How were you not just kind of like having your what we thought were basic needs met, like food and shelter, and you know and maybe that was even more elaborate for you where you were, you know, maybe even brought up in a more luxurious circumstance, and you had everything you needed. But were you seen? Were you really seen? Were you where? You felt how, um, how were emotions processed in your family? How did you deal with emotions in your family? How present were your parents in your life as in physically and emotionally present, and emotionally present is the, is the is the key word.

Mirjam: 19:03

These are kind of like the, the questions we kind of like need to need to ask ourselves. It really kind of often starts with how were emotions processed? How much space were you given to process your own feelings and your own emotions? How much did you need to suppress your own feelings and emotions to regulate or manage someone else also? And again, how? How was like, was there kind of like even something very subtle, just as kind of like a kind of like a reward system in your family? Were you given love for again, for high achievements, for being a good girl, good boy, having good grades, being your class president, going to an Ivy League school or a good college or whatever it is like when. When did you feel loved, or when did you feel what you think was loved? And if it's tied to something external versus being unconditional, that's where we need to look into.

Kelly: 20:09

Oh my gosh, yes, oh, it's huge.

Kelly: 20:12

I'm thinking so much of myself right now and I mean definitely the I would say the emotional regulation, emotional intelligence, health, and I mean I love both my parents, but I don't think it was super healthy, you know.

Kelly: 20:26

They didn't know how to regulate their emotions and so there was addiction and there was suppression and and I know that for me, like this is totally me, I was, you know, I didn't realize it really until recently, but it probably was a complex PTSD type thing. That was just really subtle and I was highly functional and, um, you know, I'm exactly the person you're describing and for me it was when I really started to go back and that's why EFT was so, I think, in the beginning so different and transformational was that I had never really felt healthy and expressing emotions. I just learned that, like those are kind of annoying and they need to, just, you know, a strong person just kind of pushes those down and moves on. Obviously, I don't believe that at all anymore, but thank you for outlining that because I think that's going to help a lot of people kind of understand that maybe, even though they're doing really well, they might have some, some patterns that are tied into that. Emotional, yeah, yes.

Mirjam: 21:26

Psychological neglect, yeah yeah, and, and I think the core piece of this work and my work is introducing radical self-compassion to yourself. Like, how do you self-talk to yourself then? What are the subtle patterns of how you again, how you talk to yourself? And that can be as simple as what you just said. Of course you love your parents. As simple as what you just said. Of course you love your parents. The priority, though, should be your younger self, your inner child, in terms of, like, yes, they did the best they could, and you can know that as the conscious self, but let's acknowledge what happened to the little girl. Yeah, right, and if we have, for those of us you know who have children, it's sometimes easier to understand. Like, how would you treat your own child that way? Would you treat your child when they come to you and express something to you about how they haven't felt heard or seen, or maybe were neglected or maybe were managing addiction patterns codependently for someone else? How would you respond to them? And how would you respond to them? And how do you respond to yourself?

Mirjam: 22:40

And I saw that also because I was teaching and doing my PhD research at Brown University and was teaching in higher education for 15 years, but especially Brown University. It's like one of the IVs and I was teaching all of these highly gifted, highly not just, but you know, highly privileged kids and it's. You just look at these kids and you wonder why are? Why are 80% of my class taking anxiety meds at 19 or 20? If these are kids that seemingly have everything, what like? What are we, you know? So this is kind of like where this started for me to read. For what are we, you know? So this is kind of like where this started for me to read, for me to realize, you know, you know, there's something, something we need to look at here. Yes, something so important.

Kelly: 23:26

How did you? I love hearing people's stories about how they found EFT and like what were you? You know what were you going through yourself? What was your first experience with? Like oh, oh, my gosh, this crazy looking thing actually is doing something. Yeah.

Mirjam: 23:40

So what brought me to EFT simply is my own trauma.

Kelly: 23:45

Yeah, most of us right, we got to scratch our head.

Mirjam: 23:48

So I was going through childhood neglect, but also I was also going through the obvious kind of trauma of systematic childhood abuse, violence, physical abuse, emotional abuse, systematic systematically over my entire childhood and youth. But was also lucky enough to have then started working with a therapist at that time pro bono because I didn't have anyone who would pay for my therapy with someone. But this therapist actually worked with somatic techniques so she did EMDR with me and she introduced me to EFT. A long time ago like 25 years ago is when I first and at that time, you know, and I did come from also from a, I did come from a spiritual background as well, so I wasn't opposed to any kind of like energy work or anything that kind of like seemed a little bit more woo, woo, so to say so.

Mirjam: 25:00

For me it didn't seem weird. I was just kind of like trying it and and that's where this started and I just shared this on a call the other day on pre verbal trauma is where it was asked. So I was diagnosed with CPTSD pretty early on and a few years later, through these techniques, that diagnosis was gone almost to the extent that I was like what the hell you know I've identified myself so much with this. Where did it go, yeah?

Kelly: 25:33

Yeah, you healed through it. It's amazing, it's truly amazing. So I know that you also grew up. You know you mentioned being in a spiritual family and meditating regularly and going to ashrams all over, all over the world. So did you run into the thing I see with a lot of my very spiritual clients where it's like's like there was a little bit of a spiritual disconnect between, like wanting to go into that stuff from the past? Did you have that at all?

Mirjam: 26:00

Yeah, spiritual, bypassing Absolutely, absolutely, absolutely. And I think, though, my own trauma, my own experiences in that community where it just became clear, wow, we are really not looking at things. This isn't, first of all, not sustainable. And even in our growth journey, in my own kind of like, let's say, awakening journey though I'm kind of very careful with that word, because I feel like it's used pervasively in ways that for me doesn't fit anymore but, um, we have, we're like, even if we go into a spiritual sense, we were given this vessel to experience consciousness itself, to experience higher awareness, to maybe experience some kind of an awakening, and that vessel is where this trauma stuff is stored. That vessel is where this trauma stuff is stored.

Mirjam: 27:03

So, ultimately, we may experience kind of like, so to say kind of like higher chakra, open consciousness experiences, but if our, so to say, lower chakras, where a lot of that trauma is stored, aren't cleared through work like that doesn't have to be that but through work like that, our body is going to keep dragging us down, and that's where we also made, then, actually, you know, that's where we do accumulate karmic debt or stuff like that. Because if we don't, ultimately, if we don't look at our shadows. If we don't look at what we were also meant to clear, because I do strongly believe we also are coming, because we are meant to clear stuff, you know we do we will externalize it, we will project it on others, we will harm our children, we will harm future generations, we will go kind of like into the world and and you know, and and, and putting emotional pesticides around us, you know. So that's kind of like where this, this also started to become really, really important to me.

Kelly: 28:06

Yeah, I'm, I mean, I can, I was, I was definitely the same person, like I had already done a lot of work to open those upper chakras and have awareness and I, you know, I think I had forgiven a lot of what had happened with my parents, with those upper chakras.

Kelly: 28:22

I had done the forgiveness, like I had the understanding of why it was important. The thing that was lacking was that when I would have a conversation with my mom or my dad and they would just have the wrong tone, right, like just that one little tone, it's so subtle I would have the you know adrenaline or I would have a contraction, I would feel it in my body and there was no amount of thinking that would ever get through that. And so when I found tapping and I actually felt my body relax with you know and I haven't done EMDR but I know that other other modalities are just, you know, just as powerful but I just was like, oh, this is what forgiveness really is, like I can't even make my body feel anger anymore around certain memories. You know, even if I try, it's like it's just gone, finally, finally gone.

Mirjam: 29:14

And I'm so glad that you're mentioning forgiveness. I think it's such an important topic to talk about Because, again, I do get many clients also in my group work that I do that are, you know, have gone on a spiritual journey as well and we kind of like here and these spiritual teachings how important forgiveness is for our spiritual liberation, important forgiveness is for our spiritual liberation. I'm really careful with forgiveness in a sense. You know we call it the F word, so not to say that that's something where you know we will get eventually.

Mirjam: 29:49

But like you experienced it, it has to come in organically. Experienced it, it has to come in organically. Otherwise it is just like and again that's the image I use If you have an abuse child who has not been acknowledged yet for what they experienced, but you tell them, oh, but really to break free of your trauma you need to forgive, yes, you are continuing that abuse with yourself. So like let's again. That's why I say prioritize your inner child and see where they are at on the forgiveness scale, rather than kind of like imposing forgiveness on someone who still feels activated by the abuse that they experienced or the trauma, whatever it may be.

Kelly: 30:37

Yeah, oh, my gosh, a hundred percent. I agree. I mean I've seen that too and I've experienced it, and I experienced it when I was younger and people would be like, oh, you know, it's kind of that, just like, oh, just forgive and forget, and it's like I would if I could. You know, I'm trying, I'm trying to pass that. Yeah, I mean, there's so much we could talk with that. And the F word. I think that's brilliant because it is, it's tricky. It's tricky. It's usually like the very last thing I do with people, if we even get there, because it's way more important, I think, to, like you said, get to that inner child. And do you have any recommendations for people I don't this is just kind of popping into my head uh, for people that maybe do inner child work and they can see like they can connect with their inner child is sad, but that they they can't, they have a really difficult time extracting information from them, like how they actually feel. Do you have any advice for working with that?

Mirjam: 31:36

advice for working with that. Yeah, I mean, first of all, again, if these feelings come up, I do advise people to work with someone who is experienced and certified on things like that. It's just like I would really say, and I know this is not something that feels accessible for all of us, but I hope that we can see it as an investment. That's what also was actually was part of why I started a group work which is really powerful because it kind of like allows it this kind of work to be really accessible for for many people, also financially, but ultimately it goes. It boils down to um, feel it, feel it, and if you can't feel it, take a guess in terms of where a feeling may sit in your body. If you can't feel it, take a guess in terms of where a feeling may sit in your body If you can't access it. If you kind of flee, like okay, there's my inner child that feels sad, can you take a guess of where that sadness may sit in their body? Because this is also the again. This is the emotional pattern or, as Lisa Feldman Barrett calls it, the emotional fingerprint. The again, this is the emotional pattern or, as Lisa Feldman Barrett calls it, the emotional fingerprint, basically, of where emotions get repeated. So we like, where, where would they feel it in their body? Where would I feel in my feel it in my body, and just sit with that and ideally, again, you do this while you do some kind of a somatic practice like tapping.

Mirjam: 32:56

And again, there's very simple protocols online. That's what I love so much about EFT, because it's so applicable. You can do it anytime. It does not have any adverse effect or consequence. You can tap all the time on your fingers on one point and whatever it is. Can you sit with those feelings and and, for instance, tap or breathe or whatever it is? Can you sit with those feelings and and, for instance, tap or breathe or whatever it is? We actually do have research to tapping is just so much more effective than just breathing, although I love breath work, um, but yeah, just can you simply stay with those feelings?

Kelly: 33:31

Okay, this is. This is going a little bit different direction, but again this is coming through, so I'm going to ask about it. One of the things that I contemplate a lot is the idea in energetics, everything's energy, so our aura and our body, and I know you know that, but there's a lot of healing work, talking about changing the field, right, and if you can just change the field, then the matter will flow to that, and I know that it's like I know that that's true, but I find that with healing again, I get people that maybe have been doing Reiki for years and I love Reiki. I get Reiki. I think it's powerful, I think it's healing and I'm not trying to downplay it, but where do you see that? For me, I still feel like it. There's these root chakra issues, this old, old stuff, you know, and it's like that changing the field and doing like sound, sound work and things like that. Yeah, my personal experience, and for my clients, hasn't been that that happens easily. Am I making sense?

Mirjam: 34:37

I agree with you, I agree with you and I love you know, whatever it is, whether you do sound healing, sound bathing, reiki, whatever your practice may be, that's great. From my experience, I can just say you have to go into the dirty work, you have to get your hands dirty. You have to go into the dirty work, you have to get your hands dirty. It's again. And that doesn't mean that these other practices can't kind of support that and help that, and that we can't do both. And I think it's important to do both, by the way, but I think it has to be both. And again, just from what I've seen, I have to this day yet to see a person who hasn't done the dirty work but is kind of like authentically and genuinely cleared of something, whatever it is they came with or whatever with. Whatever it is it is they accumulated during this life. I just haven't seen it yet.

Kelly: 35:41

Yeah, yeah, and I'm open to being corrected, but I just kind of like I wanted to talk about it, I think, because I find people to be very frustrated. They've done so much and I guess I just want to say you have to. I mean, it's all, it's all helping, it's all healing, it's all you know clearing. But then there's this, this other piece, and I just think that if we, if we ignore that piece, then we're just doing ourself a disservice.

Mirjam: 36:12

We are, we are and I know and I have so much compassion for that because I know we want to avoid that. But just understand that it is avoidance. It's kind of like and again I say this with a lot of compassion because it is it feels so scary to go into that pain it does. It is scary, but that's why I'm kind of like tell if you could invest into kind of like a support network that holds your hand while you do it and understand, like make your body understand. We're not re-traumatizing you, we're not. We, we aren't re-experiencing anything, we are just activating and bringing it up so it can be cleared, so it can be rewired. And there's really like if I could just explain to people as to how much I gained through the investment I made to work with amazing practitioners who were able to hold that space and take all kinds of different practitioners Again, I'm not saying it was just EFT, that it was different things, it just paid back manifold. Yeah.

Mirjam: 37:31

Just like a thousand times yeah.

Kelly: 37:32

And for lifetimes and for generations it will continue to get better and expand.

Kelly: 37:38

And it's so worth it. It's so worth it. I mean, the people listening I think already know that it's worth it, but I just wanted to. If there's somebody out there that is stuck and feeling like I've done so much but they're still having these big reactions to the world, then the somatic piece just might be the missing piece for them. So I know that you've been all over the place at a lot of universities and different institutions, highly academic, like you mentioned Brown University. What is the temperature on these kinds of modalities? Is it warming up?

Mirjam: 38:13

in the academic field.

Kelly: 38:14

Are we getting warmer, or does it still feel like far away for a lot of people?

Mirjam: 38:21

I would say both. I think I mean I was really lucky at Brown. At Brown there is actually something like a mindfulness center and where these kind of things are, you know, are being brought in more and more. There's also, of course, you know, the whole realm of kind of like, which is not my kind of research, but the whole realm, of course that we know of is kind of like quantum physics and these kind of things. Where we do, you know, it's kind of like someone said, if you want to find spirituality, kind of like someone said, if you want to find spirituality, go into the real science, which is kind of like quantum physics.

Mirjam: 39:11

So, yes, but it is also still I do feel like, from seeing this from within, it does go, does feel pretty slow.

Mirjam: 39:14

All in all in all in all, so, um, and and I do like I just said this at one of my last trainings that I I did is is definitely, if you kind of like, I definitely have to know my audience very well, because I do have to change these registers, and I talked about this with Peter, with Peter Stapleton, who wrote the science behind tapping, who's doing a lot of our research and has just been such an amazing figure in our world in terms of like what she has done for this practice and for EFT and it. But also when you hear her talk like she's, she's very funny because she says you know she's in these zoom calls and behind her screen she has her crystal balls and and and then she's like looking into, into these faces and she knows she's not going to use certain terms, she's not going to talk about energy, she's not going to talk about um, even somatic is a term that in in the in the academic at least, kind of like in clinical psychology and medicine world, it's kind of like, yeah, difficult, Interesting.

Mirjam: 40:17

I also come from like come from from humanities and philosophy and and these kind of. So that's kind of like there I can like mix in a little bit more and it's definitely also become more and more prevalent to. You know, we can quote the Bhagavad Gita and we can quote kind of like spiritual, mystical texts and that's kind of like more permitted in my academic field.

Kelly: 40:45

So warming up a little bit. Warming up a little bit? Yeah, it's interesting. You know, I don't know how when you get into quantum physics and start seeing what's going on, that you can't see that we're all spiritual beings, energetic beings, and the universe is quite wild and doesn't make a lot of sense to our human minds. So I think I used to have a lot of frustration towards the closed minds and I have a lot more compassion towards it now, because I think I've just done my own healing work around it, you know, but I would imagine if I was immersed in it that would be still trigger me.

Kelly: 41:24

So I want to talk a little bit more about your like, specifically about the research that you're doing, because I know you're doing some writing a book. Is it a book? A doctoral project?

Mirjam: 41:34

Yes. So I'm kind of like finishing my doctoral thesis right now, which has been a long, long process, you know, kind of like doing my work full time and having two kids that just kind of like had to wait and like what's coming from. It is also a book project that is kind of like more accessible to the broader audience. Because again, that's like a little bit of a problem in academia is that in academia we kind of like often write for the academic peers and not for it's not accessible as kind of like just as how it's, how you read it and how it's digested for a broader, for a broader audience, it just flies right over our heads. Yeah, I mean, for better or worse, it's kind of like it's not really suited, like I have. Again, that's where I have to kind of like change into that register, which is fine, but it's definitely I desire register change for again for an audience where we can just, you know, to reach more people.

Kelly: 42:39

So I know that you're doing work. Ancestral trauma or generational trauma Is that what your doctoral is on?

Mirjam: 42:47

It's tied into that. It's tied into that, but it's again it's. This is more about. This is on perinatal trauma actually, more about this is on perinatal trauma actually. So it's specifically also to the experiences of being pregnant and giving birth, specifically also in the United States.

Mirjam: 43:07

Again, it is something where I do tie in, also subtly, try and tie in spiritual work as well. It's kind of like, what are the inherited narratives, specifically when it comes to being pregnant and giving birth? Where do we have choices or where do we just kind of like, you know, have to go with the flow, so to say, in that sense, not the positive kind of flow, of kind of like the medical apparatus in the United States and how has this been responsible for causing so many mortalities, especially among Black and Indigenous women? So why is this? If our bodies are the same, if we are like, if everyone says we are treated the same, why are? Why is the mortality rate of a black, of black women, 50 percent or whatever it is now, higher than that of white women, you know. So I do tie this also kind of like back, like historically, philosophically back, to again inherited patterns, ingrained patterns of slavery that we see present in modern medicine.

Kelly: 44:28

Are you, where are you in your process? Are you getting close to being done?

Mirjam: 44:31

Final writing stages. Hopefully, yeah.

Kelly: 44:34

Yeah, do you use tapping or other? You know other modalities to help you get into your creative process or get into your I do your flow, I do, I absolutely do yes yeah, yeah, I do too. In fact, right before we got on I was tapping and breathing and just you know, just getting in, the getting in Helpful for sure. I know that EFT Universe is getting ready to open doors, or maybe already has, for certification. Am I right about that?

Mirjam: 45:04

So can we talk about that a little bit? Absolutely.

Kelly: 45:06

Because I've had people reach out asking about certification. Yeah, happy to. Yeah, let's talk about that. What does the process look like, Like what can you tell us about?

Mirjam: 45:22

Because I know it's very different now than when I went through it. You know, yeah, 2013, 14, whenever it was, yeah and it's, it's uh, it's also a long time ago for me, but I am, um, I'm some, I'm actually I am one of the lead trainers and, at EFT universe, um, now and it's, I mean, I love this certification, I can this certification. I really love, love, love everything about this certification. It's a one-year process, but it is something. I have chosen this specific certification because I wanted the one that was most grounded in research, that had the most life support and was the most trauma informed and, um, and again, I think, like, whatever you do, you know there's, there's many great certifications out there.

Mirjam: 46:08

It was for me, and it is still to the date, the one that is just um, the most outstanding in terms of what you get, also for your money. So what it entails is basically you, first of all, you enter an amazing community. So there is like a there is not just a Facebook group, but there is like ongoing life skills calls that you can attend on an ongoing basis, and I have certified practitioners that have been certified for years and they still come to these skills calls that we do twice a month. It entails live workshops, so entails a four-day workshop and a two-day workshop. They're all. Most of them are online and we kind of like try to accommodate the various time zones. There was nothing online when I went through it. That changed a lot.

Mirjam: 46:56

I know of them are online and we kind of like try to accommodate the various time zones.

Mirjam: 46:58

Yeah, there was nothing online when I went through it, that changed a lot. I know we do still have in-person workshops. So Das and I are going to teach that four-day workshop actually this summer at the Omega Institute and then one of our trainers is doing that at Kripalu in Massachusetts. So we do have a couple of them live, but most of them are on Zoom right now. So they're very and they're great. I did not. Um, actually, we have like the research we do before and after the workshops are almost like people are retaining more in the zoom workshops.

Mirjam: 47:25

Um, I think there is like something really amazing about working with a community that you would otherwise not meet. Um, it's still very intimate. It's very kind of like it's's very nuts and bolts, kind of like practice heavy. It comes with like a self-paced study portion and then it comes with and I think that's the best part it comes with one-on-one personal mentoring of a personal mentor that takes you through your practice sessions, that revises your session notes and again, that's like something that often scares people. So I just want to be careful about saying oh my God, I'm just have, I have to write session notes. We are really taking you through that process gently and doing a lot of introductions to get you to that place where you feel completely comfortable doing these practice sessions and writing up these session notes, and your mentor will as well. So, yeah, and that's basically.

Kelly: 48:23

that's it in a nutshell, basically, yeah it's so, and most people are able to get it done in a year.

Mirjam: 48:30

You I mean I, you know what. At the time I did it I was already kind of like starting grad school. I was teaching full time and I had a baby and a toddler at home and I still did it in under a year. But also because it inspired me so much like it didn't feel like it pulled anything from me. It kind of like gave me back because it comes again. It comes with swap partners like people in our community all the time look for practice clients. It comes with like healing. It comes with swap partners like people in our community all the time look for practice clients. It comes with like healing. It comes with stimulation. It comes with like a community that kind of like keeps pushing you and and inspiring you. So it is definitely doable in under a year, even if you work full time. But we do also and a lot of people do take a six month free extension and there is no problem with that either.

Kelly: 49:20

So, yeah, yeah, I was going through. My dad had cancer and I was taking care of him at the time I was started mine. So it took me almost two years, which it normally it shouldn't have. But also there was no zoom at that time, so I was driving to Chicago from where I am and and that was hard, you know when? When my dad was sick.

Kelly: 49:40

But one of the things that I will say to anybody that's like on the fence or even considering it is that the amount of healing that you get I don't want to say forcing, but, but like going through this process, I feel like for me because it activated so much doing those session notes was really triggering for me. So then I got to tap on it. You know, I got to work through it, you know, just working out. Even I had been a nurse for 10 years before I did this. So I had, you know, that bedside rapport, but it was so different that it was still triggering for me. And what I realized in the process is that I am a total scaredy cat. I had totally convinced myself, you know, like through life, that I wasn't, but what I just learned to do was dissociate from the fact that it was fear, but so the process of getting the certification was so healing, like getting website up I don't know that you guys work on that during the certification but but like becoming a practitioner was so triggering for me.

Kelly: 50:37

So every time I stepped forward towards it, I got to move through it and so I tell like I'm the hugest advocate and like go get certified. You know, get this done, because you will, you will do so much just in the process of becoming that person. But then also you get that mentorship and the one-on-one work with it and the swap partners. I mean it just is is so life-changing At least it was for me.

Mirjam: 50:59

It really is. It has changed my life, um, absolutely, and it's also what I love about it. It is no cookie cutter kind of like skill that you're learning, like integrating. You can integrate it with whatever you do. Um, you don't have to like, if this is not in the cards for you, you don't have to become a full-time practitioner Again. I have nurses, I have, like you, you know, we have all kinds like. We have a range of people, we have real estate brokers. We have, like I mean a range of people that integrated in their lives as kind of like for themselves, as an extension for their practice, as like it's. It's it just kind of like how it can serve you. I don't think you can see it unless you do it. It's kind of like how much this adds to your life professionally and personally.

Kelly: 51:48

I'm glad you said that, because it's so true. Even if you're somebody who doesn't want to become a practitioner per se, but you want to really learn how to walk yourself through healing these reactions, you know, then the certification process is the place to do that Because, as you know, there's so many different ways to use it. There's so many. It's not just like you say these words and you tap on these points, like there's just a million different ways to get into those hard to reach spaces. And I think the other thing I just want to say is that going through the certification process taught me was how to trust someone else with my baggage, because I don't think that I had a healthy relationship with that. So, having to say the hard things and knowing that I had a supportive person on the other side, I did tapping by myself for two years before I ever worked with a practitioner and had a ton of success, you know. But that was another piece of the healing was being comfortable going. I trust you to hold this and to walk me through.

Mirjam: 52:47

Yeah.

Kelly: 52:48

Yeah, incredible. Yeah yeah, that's great process. I will leave the. I'll drop a link for the certification in the show notes, so if anybody's curious about that, but anything else that just comes to mind that you wanted to add before we close out. This has been wonderful. I know so many people are going to have aha moments listening to this.

Mirjam: 53:09

Yeah, no, I think it's. It's really what I just always want to say is, like, wherever you are like, you can really do this, you can really do this. This is accessible. This is wonderful. This isn't something that's kind of like out there, you can do this. It's applicable in your daily life.

Mirjam: 53:30

You're welcome to reach out to me, you're welcome to join my really miraculous group of people who are just like all of us and they're just showing up. And the wonderful thing about the group is really, is that in like an extension to the work that we are, we are doing everyone also. We are bypassing, basically, that feeling of isolation that often comes with trauma. It's kind of like, oh my God, I'm the only one who is there, I'm the only one who is there, I'm the only one who is experiencing it, things like that. And all of a sudden, there's like a group that kind of holds each other too and that kind of bypasses again, bypasses that feeling of I'm alone with this, which it's just so beautiful to see. I'm so grateful to work with these people every single time. So, yeah, I love that you're doing that and thank you for having me here.

Kelly: 54:22

Absolutely, it's been wonderful chatting with you. How can people find you Remind me what that website is?

Mirjam: 54:27

Yeah, openconsciousnessinstitutecom. If you also type in miriampaninskicom, you land on that page too. I also have practitioners that I trained, that did my advanced trainer training in ancestral healing, that were hand-picked, um, you can also reach out. So you can reach out for all kinds of one-on-one work as well. Um, and again, the group work is something that's accessible right away. Um, it also comes with all the replays of the previous sessions.

Mirjam: 54:54

I actually do have a bunch of people that are in australia or somewhere else that are just all the replays of the previous sessions. I actually do have a bunch of people that are in Australia or somewhere else that are just doing the replays and are never joining the live sessions. It comes with bonus meditations that people can use all the time. It's kind of like a membership you can pay monthly or it can commit to six months or 12 months. I also want to say again, it's something that we do want to make accessible. So, if you reach out to me and your team, our team, uh, no questions asked. Um, we will always try to accommodate whatever, wherever people are at with that, and that's the beautiful thing about the group work is that we can be so flexible, um, with pricing. So, um, I don't want you to feel that price or payment is an obstacle to you receiving a service like that.

Kelly: 55:40

I want to say to a plug for you I've never been in your group but I find that group tapping. There is some kind of magic that happens with it.

Kelly: 55:49

I think it is being able to support each other. I think it's the borrowed benefits we get from tapping on things that we don't even you know, tapping along with someone else. But there there is. If there's anybody that's thinking like, oh, I wouldn't dare do that in a group, I want to just say like oh, give it a try, because there's something intangible I don't even know that. I can explain it. That happens when you do it in a group of people. It's like that group clearing is so powerful.

Mirjam: 56:12

I agree, I agree, I'm such a fan, I'm, so, I'm. So it's often where people are a little bit oh, do I want to do? I feel comfortable in the group Also. My group I also want to say is that usually it's me leading through a tapping meditation. That's pretty extensive, like a 45 minute to one hour tapping meditation. Sometimes we tap on one person, but that's usually done in a q&a call that I do In those healing sessions. I actually lead through these tapping meditations and I also. There's no rules in this in terms of if people still feel during tapping more private, if they want to turn off their screen, that's completely fine and then kind of like reenter or whatever it is. So you are not forced to be exposed or false forced to talk in my group either, because I know that can be triggering for people too. So I just want to add that here as well, beautiful.

Kelly: 57:07

Thank you so much for your time. I really appreciate you being here and sharing your wisdom with us and, like I said, I know so many people are going to be listening to this and getting aha moments and being like oh, maybe I do have some stuff that I never really thought about before. So thank you so much, thank you Kelly.

Kelly: 57:28

Hey again, just dropping back in to extend a huge thank you for being here and sticking around until the very end. I know this episode sparked some serious aha moments, so don't forget to send it over to a friend, family member or even a colleague who could really benefit from this episode, or maybe even one from the past. And here's the really cool part sharing this podcast episode and if you're feeling it, only if you're feeling it leaving a five-star review will help both boost the episode so that we can inspire even more people to unlock a more joyful, free and magical life. Also, don't forget to check out the show notes. I've got a resource bundle down there with free access to courses, meditations, tapping scripts, and you can also find information on how to book a consultation and work with me one-on-one. If that is speaking to you, I would love to connect on my social media channels, so follow along, kelly. How coaching on Facebook and Instagram, and this is how on TikTok, since it looks like TikTok isn't going anywhere and I'll see you in the next episode. You.