The Final Addiction We Must Heal to Evolve (It’s Not What You Think)

What if the greatest threat to humanity isn’t war, climate collapse, or AI, but our addiction to being right?

In this timely and transformative episode, Dr. Sandra Marie welcomes internationally known peace troubadour, mystic, and author James Twyman to explore how three simple words, “I don’t know. Maybe. I love you.” can dismantle the walls of polarization and help us remember what it means to be human.

From performing peace concerts in Baghdad and walking with Sufi mystics, to confronting political tension with radical compassion, James shares the real-world stories that shaped his powerful new movement of depolarization through love.

Together, we dive into:

• The hidden cost of being “right” in relationships and society
• Why holy neutrality is not passive, but revolutionary
• How to engage without fighting, and listen without losing your voice
• The legacy of St. Francis and the collapse of the feudal system
• The spiritual technology behind “I don’t know. Maybe. I love you.”

Whether you're overwhelmed by the news, navigating conflict at home, or simply tired of division this episode offers a powerful reframe and an even more powerful invitation.

“Peace is not found in the loudest voice, but in the quiet decision to open, again and again and again.”

🔗 Resources & Links:

📖 James Twyman's Website & Books
https://www.jamesftwyman.com

💡 Join the Depolarization Movement
Take the 1-minute survey at https://www.de-polarize.com

🌐 Explore More from Dr. Sandra Marie:
Website → https://www.wildsoulsgathering.com
YouTube → https://www.youtube.com/@WildSoulsGatherings
Substack → https://wildsouls.substack.com

Chapters

• 0:00 The Pandemic of Being Right
• 2:48 The Journey of Depolarization
• 5:53 Curiosity as a Tool for Connection
• 8:58 The Power of Shared Humanity
• 11:50 Lessons from St. Francis
• 15:05 Holy Neutrality vs. Spiritual Bypassing
• 17:59 Navigating Fear and Grief in Uncertain Times
• 30:19 The Journey of Compassionate Conversations
• 32:24 The Role of Jesus as a Depolarizer
• 37:20 The Addiction to Being Right
• 41:36 The Future of Polarization and Healing
• 44:41 The Rise of Spiritual Leadership
• 47:11 Finding Connection in Divided Times

Transcript

Speaker 2 (00:00)
One the other things I wanted to touch on that you talked about early in the show is you talked about the pandemic of being right or wrong. And I just want to speak this in a different way because when I spoke it to myself in this way, it really sort of was an aha to me. But is being right the final addiction we must collectively heal? I think that's a powerful statement. The final addiction.

Being right.

Enjoy this Wild Soul gathering production. I'm Dr. Sandra Marie. Pour yourself a really tall glass of spiritual curiosity and join me for the Happy Hour for the Spiritually Curious Podcast. In the spirit of happy hour, cheers to some new insights, peace, revitalization, and perhaps an aha moment that may change your life.

Welcome to the show, everyone. Today's guest is no stranger to walking straight into the heart of global conflict with nothing but a guitar and a prayer. James Twyman, often called the peace troubadour, has traveled into war zones, walked with mystics, and written over two dozen spiritually resonant books. But his latest book, I Don't Know, Maybe, I Love You, James isn't asking us to travel the world. He's asking us to pause, breathe, and let love have the final word.

right in our own kitchens, communities, and conversations. As America inches towards another moment of high stakes division, as the global climate seems to increasingly be unstable, this episode isn't just timely, it's necessary. James joins us to explore what it really means to be a depolarization agent, how to disarm conflicts with truth and humility, and why three simple phrases, I don't know, maybe, I love you.

might just be the healing spell this planet needs. Welcome to the show, James.

Speaker 1 (02:01)
Thank you so much. It's great to be here.

Speaker 2 (02:04)
Awesome. Hey, let's just jump right into this. A while back when you were sitting at a cafe in New Hampshire, you saw a man waving a Trump flag. What did you feel in your body at that moment that told you you had to write this book now?

Speaker 1 (02:20)
Well, that is one of the first experiences that I wrote about in the book. In fact, it was the very first experience that I had. But I'll back up a little bit first to lead into that answer. ⁓ The whole journey began a number of years ago toward the beginning of COVID when I was speaking with my younger brother, a younger brother who loves to try to win arguments over me, loves to argue.

And we were talking about something in regard to the COVID pandemic. I don't remember exactly what it was, but he seemed to be winning the argument. So I said three things to him that have changed my life. said, Kenny, I don't know. Maybe I love you. He later said, I hate when you do that. How can I keep the argument going when you say things like that? And I realized in that moment, he was right. You can't keep the argument going if there's no one pushing against you. So I began talking about this.

in many of the lectures that I was giving. And it stuck, I could feel it stick to people. I would hear them days later, in the middle of a conversation say, I don't know, maybe I love you. And even though it's kind of entertaining, it's like a formula that brings us back together. But I had no intention of writing a book. In fact, I had said I'm not writing any more books after 23 books, I guess at that time, I figured that was enough.

But I was on a tour, a concert tour in the, in the East Northeastern part of the country. And I was in North Conway, New Hampshire. And I was with a friend of mine and his wife and his wife. And I found out, I didn't know before owns a publishing company. So I was excited about that. And I told her, I said, I'm not going to write any more books, but if I were to, this would be the one. I told her this story about my brother and she said,

If you write that book, I will publish it. This is something that is so needed today to bring us back together. So I was traveling in my little camper van. I went back to my van that night and began writing. And then the next morning, back to your question, I went to a little cafe there in North Conway. And as I was walking there, there was, this was right before the, the, the 20, uh, 24 election. So, uh,

signs were everywhere. People were expressing their opinions. And this particular man had a car covered with Trump signs and was waving a flag or a sign rather that said, vote Trump or else. I thought, okay, if I'm going to try and do the work of depolarization, let's begin right now. So I began speaking to him. went outside. I was in a restaurant.

or cafe and I went outside and he immediately felt, here comes this liberal guy who's gonna want to argue with me. I'm sure he's been having that experience all day long and I guess he had been there for days, maybe even weeks waving that sign. But instead, I approached him with an openness, not trying to convince him of anything, but to be curious. So I asked him, hey, tell me more about

why you think Donald Trump is the right candidate. And you can see in his eyes at first he was a little taken aback, wondering what the angle was. But when he realized I was just listening and the miracle then is if I listen, if I give someone that space, there's a very good chance that they're going to give it back to me. And he did. He said, tell me more about what you believe. And I said, well, I have a different belief, but

Speaker 2 (05:53)
Right.

Speaker 1 (06:12)
And I shared why, but in the end, it ended up being a conversation between two people who had very, very different beliefs, who were able to respect one another, not try and change one another. And I realized this is where the work of depolarization begins. What I call letting go of the pandemic to be right, being the forcing my rightness, I'm right about this. And if you have a different opinion, you're wrong.

then I can force you out of my life. This is where we've come today and I think this is where the biggest issue that we're facing is.

Speaker 2 (06:49)
I totally agree with that. Do you, and it is a pandemic. love how you put that. you believe polarization is not just a social issue, but a spiritual crisis?

Speaker 1 (06:59)
I think everything is a spiritual crisis. I think things manifest socially, but if we want to go to the deepest core of it, it's the idea of separation. The idea that you and I, that the divine, God, whatever you want to call that, that we are split, that we are separate. And therefore we have to protect this separateness that we feel. I have to protect myself against you or

whatever force I believe is there to oppose me. Instead of realizing that we are one, that there is an experience of oneness beyond duality that we can enjoy right now. And it begins in our personal relationship. So this is when it comes back to being social. I can use my relationships, the interactions that I have to try to prove once again to be right, that we are separate, that we are isolated, that we are alone or

I can be curious and I can fall back and say, well, maybe there's something deeper happening. And maybe if I, in even my interactions, including with people who don't agree with me, instead of trying to force my rightness and their wrongness, listen to them, be respectful. You know, I love to say that these are just lessons that we learned in kindergarten, you to be kind, to listen, to respect one another.

And if we could just put into practice the things that we learned when we were five, the world would be a much better place.

Speaker 2 (08:33)
Yeah, there's certainly been enough posters on that over the years. So what did your soul know before you came here that you would say that you're just starting to embody now?

Speaker 1 (08:47)
You know, I've been asked a lot of questions over the years. I don't think I've ever been asked that one before. ⁓

How simple this can be. It really is simple. If we let go, if we ⁓ relax, if we open up our hands rather than clenching, and this is what we do as humans, we want to be right, we feel safe if we think we're right. But instead, there is a vulnerability that comes.

when we just open and are curious, ask questions rather than make statements. And these are the tools that can help move us back into a state of understanding, of being ⁓ cooperative. So I think this is an ongoing process for me and for all of us to get more and more simple with this.

not have it be so complex. It really isn't complex. That's why I like to say that it's like going back to when we were in kindergarten.

Speaker 2 (10:04)
Well, that feels like truth we've all been carrying but couldn't necessarily name. I know a lot of us are really going through, regardless where you're at on the path, a lot of growth moments. If you let that remember and speak, not as James the man, but as the soul who came here with this mission, what would it want the world to hear right now?

Speaker 1 (10:26)
We all want the same thing. And if we remember that, that we all want to feel love, we all want to feel like there's something binding us together. I think if we just remember that, then we can begin the journey of dissolving all of the things that seem to separate us, make us different. Let me give you an example. As you mentioned before, I've spent a lot of time

traveling to war zones and countries in conflict. And one of the first was Iraq in 1998. I was actually invited there by Saddam Hussein to perform a peace concert there in the National Theater in Baghdad. And it was obviously very interesting to be invited in such a way. I had been on a ⁓ radio, a very popular radio show in London right before this and...

And I just made kind of an off-handed remark because we were at a moment of conflict once again, where Saddam Hussein was playing games and the US and his allies were looking like we were going to be going in again. And this was going to be very bad. And I said to this radio host, what I would love to do is to simply sit down with Saddam Hussein and share the Muslim prayer for peace.

Well, it turned out that the Iraqi ambassador to Great Britain heard that interview. And next day I got a phone call saying, if you were serious, we can arrange this. So here I am, literally the next day, flying to Amman, Jordan, because you couldn't fly into Baghdad because of the no-fly zone. We flew into Amman, ⁓ me and two ladies, two women came with me, one from Bosnia and one from the UK. And we took a taxi 12 hours through the desert.

to get to Baghdad. In fact, I'll tell you, ⁓ the first thing that I saw, literally my first steps onto Iraqi soil, when we finally arrived in Baghdad and the cab took us to this hotel, it's called the El Rashid Hotel, and very beautiful place. And as I'm walking through the front door, I look on the ground and there's a huge mosaic in the center is a man's face. And he has kind of a snarled look.

his face. And as I looked at this curious, I looked at the bottom and in English it said Bush is a criminal. You have to literally walk over George Bush Sr.'s face to get into into this hotel. So right from the beginning it looked like, wow, sorry, this is all about us being different, us being different from them, them being different from us and the conflict that comes from that difference.

And yet, when I shared these prayers, these peace prayers, ⁓ something magical was happening. It was the first time actually that we asked people around the world to be praying for peace in Iraq at the same time the concert was taking place. And it was one of the first examples of an email or something that went viral.

millions of people stopped what they were doing at that same time. It felt like it was raining peace and prayers, I can remember so well. And it was a beautiful thing. I can say that three days later, against everyone's expectation, a peace accord was signed. And at least at that time, there was no conflict. But the main thing I wanted to point out was at the very end of that concert, the people who sponsored it had put together a beautiful party.

large gathering of people in honor of this concert. And all we did was sit around and sing Simon and Garfunkel songs all night long. So we are a lot more similar than we are different.

Speaker 2 (14:29)
I believe that in my heart and even with the differences, if we focus on what we have in common, it's easier to have the other conversation.

Speaker 1 (14:39)
Exactly. Which leads to, think, one of the most important tools in depolarizing, curiosity. If we're just leading with what we believe and trying to convince the other person that they're wrong, there's no room, there's no space. They're just a battle. But if I'm curious and I begin with that curiosity, it really does open things up. And this is why for me, I mean, it's great to have a book, you know,

with that title. don't know, maybe. I love you. But this is a lot more than a book. It's a movement. We really want people to join the movement of depolarization. You mentioned it in your introduction to be depolarizing agents. And one of the ways you can do that, obviously getting the book is a start, but you can also go to our website, is de-polarize.com, de-polarize.com. ⁓

And for example, there's a simple one minute survey you can take that will help us to know how to continue this movement and to grow this movement. And we invite you to come and begin to learn these tools so that you can be depolarized and a depolarizing agent in your own community.

Speaker 2 (15:53)
I agree and it's getting honestly more important by the moment. I know ⁓ you have done a lot of work with St. Francis in the past. You've talked about the legacy of St. Francis who met a Muslim sultan during the Crusades not to convert him, but to connect in a previous work very similar to what you just talked about with your Iraq work. Is it time for a modern Francis moment in humanity? Is that what you're talking about a little bit with this?

Absolutely.

Speaker 1 (16:25)
Yes, in fact, I'll ask you a question, a of a quiz, because it's very interesting. Someone once said, if we had only had 10 St. Francis's, we wouldn't have needed a revolution. Who do you think said that?

Speaker 2 (16:43)
I have no idea.

Speaker 1 (16:45)
A lot of people say Lenin or John Lenin and in saying so they're close because it's not John Lenin but Vladimir Lenin who said that at the beginning of the Bolshevik or maybe at the end of the Bolshevik Revolution. Incredible.

Speaker 2 (17:00)
I got chills as you just said that.

Speaker 1 (17:02)
Isn't that incredible?

An atheist who saw the impact that someone like Francis had 800 years ago at a time very similar to we're living in. He had such a great impact. Let me give you one example. ⁓ Francis started three orders of the Franciscan community. The first order are the priests and brothers. Second order are the order that was formed by St. Clair, often called the Poor Clairs.

And the third order or the lay Franciscans. So these are people who had jobs and families, but Francis found a way for them to be together and to live this life of service and compassion. one of the vows that ⁓ third order Franciscans had to take was to ⁓ not bear arms in a vow of nonviolence.

By the time Francis died in 1224, a quarter of all of Europe were part of the Franciscan, one of the Franciscan orders, primarily the third order, which meant that the feudal system, which was all based on battles and wars against neighboring, not only neighboring countries, but neighboring principalities or cities, like Assisi was always at war with Perugia, for example, the neighboring town.

And because of this vow and because there were so many people who had taken it, the feudal system itself fell apart because they couldn't raise armies when so many people had taken vows of, of, of nonviolence. This is just one example of, of what can happen. The other example that you mentioned was when Francis had this bizarre idea that he could go to Egypt and he could meet the great Sultan al-Qamil.

who was the leader of all the Muslim forces during the Crusades. he felt, Francis felt that if he could speak to the Sultan and share with him what he felt to be the real message of Jesus, that the Sultan would end the war on his own. And Francis, of course, was told you can't do that, they'll kill you, it'll be terrible. But he was determined and he didn't think anything other than this is what I'm called to do.

So he, along with Brother Illuminato, one of the other friars, took three different attempts to reach Egypt. And when they reached this fortress of Damietta, where the battle was taking place, ⁓ he went right up to the gate, just walked right up. At first, they thought that these were Sufi mystics and let them in, but before long, they realized they were not. They were Christians, and so they were rested, beaten.

and sentenced to die. But the Sultan was so intrigued by this strange man who came just to talk. Once again, curiosity exactly shows the power of that. So this meeting not only with the Sultan, but speaking of the Sufis, the biggest and most important Sufi leader of that time was named Fakir al-Din al-Farisi. And he was with the Sultan at that time. ⁓

Speaker 2 (20:04)
Cheers.

Speaker 1 (20:24)
France are the Sultan and the Eldinel Farisi were so moved by the simplicity and the compassion of this young friar from Italy that they not only let him live, but let him stay there at the the fortress for two weeks where they conversed and shared. And Francis learned about the beauty of the Islamic world. And they learn more about the beauty of the Christian world. And one more follow up story to that, which shows what

depolarization can do when we come back together. A short while later, ⁓ the battle had moved ⁓ to the Nile. And if the Crusaders were able to cross the Nile into the main part of Egypt, would be, the game would be over. The Crusaders would just conquer city after city. And so as the Crusaders came to a low area near the Nile,

The Sultan did something rather ingenious. He opened the floodgates and flooded the entire area where the soldiers, the Crusaders were. They couldn't move, they couldn't get their horses or their carts out, they couldn't get food, and it did not take long for them to begin to starve to death. So what did the Sultan do? I personally think it was largely based on this interaction that he had with St. Francis.

He sent his own soldiers, the enemy, in to feed. And of course, when they finally were able to get free, they just went back to Europe. It shows the power of what happens when we turn our focus from how different we are to the fact that we're all very much the same.

Speaker 2 (21:56)
to feed them.

I love the relationship building. I ⁓ will have to say I lived in the Middle East for ⁓ three years and I was actually really surprised in how much similarity there is in a lot of all of those that I was unaware of before I went there. I'll just say that. But what does holy neutrality mean to you and how is it different from spiritual bypassing or just being passive?

Speaker 1 (22:43)
And you ask good questions. ⁓ Holy neutrality. I'm not taking sides. I. OK, let's go back to the title of the book. I don't know. Maybe I love you. This is a formula and it begins with I don't know because the truth is I don't know and neither do you and neither does anyone else. We think we do. We have our opinions.

We have what we believe, but we don't know. Let me give you an example. I did not vote for Donald Trump. That may be clear. ⁓ I have my opinions about what he's doing and what his administration is all about. But I don't know if this is a bad thing or what's needed. And when we relax into the I don't know, show me.

Something happens, something organic happens within us. a space opens up rather than a contraction. When I say, I know what's right, I know what needs to happen here, I'm contracted. When I say, I don't know, maybe there's something I can learn here, or maybe there's something that you can help me to see that I've never seen before. But at the very foundation of all of this needs to be the I love you, compassion.

love for one another, even my enemy. Okay. As Jesus said, love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you. So holy neutrality is number one falling into the space of, don't know. I can't be neutral if I am sure that I know something. Like, let's say, for example, with the election, I know that Donald Trump was not the right person to be elected. I don't know that. I have my opinion just as you do.

All the terrible things that I believe are happening and may continue to happen, may be what needs to happen. For example, I believe Donald Trump is a, forget the word I was using, an instigator or ⁓ a disruptor. He is a disruptor. Yeah, maybe this is what we needed was to have the whole apple cart shaken to have the status quo.

Speaker 2 (24:57)
100 percent.

Speaker 1 (25:07)
disrupted so that something new can grow. So if we relax into the I don't know and begin there, holy neutrality. But there was another part of your question, which is how is this different from bypassing? And someone, no, not bypassing. ⁓

Speaker 2 (25:22)
was

the word different? Why is it different from spiritual bypassing or being spiritual bypassing?

Speaker 1 (25:28)
Yeah, spiritual bypassing is basically when we go around something rather than just moving right through it. And this question was brought up when I was writing the book and I did write a whole section on this because an Episcopal priest friend ⁓ had said to me, but if something is wrong, it's wrong. And we need to speak to that. Let's say, let's take a terrible

example, let's say that someone is injuring or hurting a child. This is wrong. Now, in that situation, am I just going to say, well, I don't know. I don't really know what this child needs. Maybe, no, I'm going to maybe have that space within me, but I'm going to take action. If someone believes, let's give another example that gay people are evil. Okay. Am I just going to say, well, I don't know, maybe.

Of course not. But I can hold the space within myself of compassion and openness and begin with curiosity. Why do you believe that? Tell me more. And then a space is ultimately going to be open for me to say, I believe that we are one and I believe that it's none of my business what someone wants to do, blah, blah, blah, blah. So

It is very different from spiritual bypassing because there are times when action needs to be taken, but action can be taken from that space of unity and oneness rather than let's separate even further.

Speaker 2 (27:06)
That makes sense. you know, I've had a few conversations about, ⁓ Donald Trump being elected and he is a disruptor and perhaps there is a greater purpose for this, but my greater purpose that I come from and seeing this is very different than maybe someone who's a very strong Trump supporter. I don't know which is right. It's my opinion as to.

everything's so broke, it needs to come down and be rebuilt as we're creating this new world versus this is ⁓ the way he's going about it. I agree with you, just we have to be a little more willing to have the conversation. That being said, many of our listeners feel the world is unraveling. I think many people, regardless what side

you're sitting on of all of these things, feel the world's unraveling economically, environmentally, politically. ⁓ What can someone who's really frozen in fear or grief actually do today? Because I think a lot of people really just are frozen with what to do.

Speaker 1 (28:23)
Yeah, I think the world is unraveling and I'm not going to say that's a bad thing because it seems likely that this is a good thing. As you said, it has to come down before we can begin to build it up again. But it really begins conversation by conversation, person to person. And that's why this book is really a road trip, a road journey beginning that night when

and said, if you write this book, I'll publish it. I thought, well, I'll just talk to people as I'm traveling, doing this concert tour. I'll talk to people along the way. And then I, once I was finished with the tour, I was in Pennsylvania. I had to then drive all the way back to Portland, Oregon. So I'll talk to people along my journey westward. And I talked to many people who agree with me and many people who did not.

And it allowed me to put into practice everything we're sharing here. An example would be probably my dearest friend in the world whose name is Vicki. I've known Vicki for over 30 years and anyone who knows Vicki will say, I promise you, they will say that she is one of the most loving, holy people they've ever met. Absolutely true. And on this tour, she's in New Jersey now. So I had a few days off.

And so I spent the days with Vicki at her home to learn that Vicki is a rather avid Donald Trump supporter. So this is someone that I love. Now I realize that I have a prejudice that anyone who is spiritual, anyone who I consider to be loving would never ever support Donald Trump. This was my own prejudice, right? And here's someone who is both loving, holy, giving,

compassionate, all of the above. and so instead, I have to say, I think in the beginning, I was, you've got to be kidding me. And I fell into the trap of polarization. But when I remembered what I was doing on this journey, I stepped back and, and put it, put this into practice. And I would just ask her questions. Tell me more. Why, what led you to believe that?

I was curious and she began to share with me many of the things that she felt or she had seen or noticed. And though we didn't end agreeing with each other, she didn't change her position. I didn't change my position, but that's not what the point is. The point is not to get people to change. The point is just to be able to acknowledge one another in ways that bring us closer, regardless.

of what our beliefs are. We're always going to meet people who either agree with or disagree with us. But the problem that's happening today is we have the category of the people who agree with us and we bring them in and the people who don't and we push them away. And we see this happening in our families, in our communities, everywhere. People who were beloved friends or family members are no longer in our lives.

because they voted for someone that we didn't vote for or think something that we don't think. And this is what needs to change. And I think that's the power of this book because it helps us to have those conversations that are maybe difficult to have or very polarizing. So I had many conversations like that along the way, who people who were very different from me, ⁓ people who had different opinions and people who had the same opinion. And through each one of them,

I learned tools of how we can come together to depolarize and to be part of what I hope will be a great movement of depolarization.

Speaker 2 (32:24)
James, I think this movement's like super important. So what would you say to someone because everything is seems to be an all or none, the polarization, right? So what does it mean to become a depolarizing agent in a world that really rewards the outrageous and the outrageous is on either side. It's not just one side and punishes the softness because that's what it feels like. But it doesn't seem like it feels that way for you.

Speaker 1 (32:54)
Once again, a very good question. ⁓

Okay, the greatest, in my opinion, as a Franciscan, as a priest, in my opinion, the greatest depolarizer in history was Jesus. Jesus was an upside down teacher. In other words, very little of what he said or taught made any sense to the intellectual mind or to the normal belief system of most people.

I gave an example before when, when he said, love your enemies. Well, who would love your enemy? That doesn't make any sense. Do good to the people who hate you. Why would you do that? That doesn't make any sense either. And almost everything he taught was the opposite of what we usually believe. In fact, many, many so-called Christians today have fallen into this trap of

calling themselves Christians while at the same time pushing Jesus as far away as they can possibly get him. With many, it's very overt. In fact, they'll say, we are Old Testament Christians. That doesn't make any sense at all. Or people who still say that we're born-again Christians or whatever, and yet do the opposite of what Jesus said. So I'm a strong proponent of let's...

do what we say we believe. Let's follow the lessons or the teachings of someone like Jesus or Gandhi or Martin Luther King or St. Francis. Instead of just saying, know, giving lip service to it, let's actually live this. So, tell you the truth, I forgot what your original question was.

Speaker 2 (34:40)
That's it. I think that you've answered it. It's with the outrageousness there and being, you know, the movement may be being seen as being soft. Yeah. And I mean, there's nothing wrong with being soft, but I feel like that someone might say then it's not going to be effective, but you know what? You responded perfectly. Absolutely.

Speaker 1 (35:03)
And

to follow up on that, I would say it may appear soft to some, but it's not soft. In fact, having the courage to live in this way, as I think one of the strongest things we can do, because we're going against the momentum. You know, there's a friend of mine, I actually wrote a book about him. He's a French chef who has a B &B outside Toronto.

He's one of the most amazing cooks. Roger Defoe is his name. And in the men's room of his B &B, his restaurant, ⁓ there is a wonderful poster. I love this poster. It's a big poster and it shows hundreds of white sheep moving en masse toward a cliff. And they're all going over the cliff and you can see they're all moving, moving. And yet there's one black sheep right in the middle.

go in the other direction and it says, excuse a moi, excuse a moi. Now, this is kind of an answer to your question. To go against the current takes great courage. It's not soft. For you and I to come here and to say, no, we're here to listen to the people who disagree with us. That's like, why would I do that? That's a hard thing to do. It's challenging for me and for all of us.

Speaker 2 (36:07)
Ha ha ha!

Speaker 1 (36:31)
There are times when with my own father, I'll give you an example. I can't think of anyone who thinks more different than me than my own father. And when I'm with him, I just try and keep it peaceful. And he'll try and goat me into and I'll say, dad, I don't want to talk about that. I don't want to talk. But then finally, a breaking point will come. Gosh darn it. And then I'll launch into him.

So it's hard. It's a challenge to ⁓ do the work of depolarization. But if we're going to save ourselves, and I mean that quite literally, we're like those sheep heading toward that cliff. And if we don't get more people like us saying, excuse-moi, going the other way, we're going to be in big trouble.

Speaker 2 (37:10)
you do.

I agree and we're actively, literally actively ⁓ in that moment. I will tell you usually when I record an episode, a lot of times it doesn't come out for a couple of months for a number of reasons, but just because of everything that's actively happening and the importance of what you said, because it is now time I'll have this episode. I mean, my intention before we even recorded was to have this out next week. One of the other things I wanted to...

that you talked about early in the show as you talked about the pandemic of being right or wrong. And I just want to speak this in a different way because when I spoke it to myself in this way, it really sort of was an aha to me, but is being right the final addiction we must collectively heal? I think that's a powerful statement. The final addiction. Being right is that

It's really, it is, it's an addiction.

Speaker 1 (38:21)
It is an addiction and we're all addicts. It's part of the human, it's a human quality. And today we are up against ⁓ so many catalysts that push us even deeper into this addiction. One example would be social media, places like Facebook, even YouTube. Their algorithms are designed

to tell us what we already believe, to make us think that we're right. For example, if I am an anti-vaxxer and I watch a video on that, the algorithms think, well, this is what he believes, so let's give him more of that. Next thing I know, I'm seeing all these suggestions for videos on that same topic, people who agree with me, authorities, doctors who are going to agree with what I believe already.

Now someone else who is pro vaccination, the exact opposite will happen. And they'll be getting all the videos that say this is a good thing. We should get vaccinated. And it's easy then to say, I must be right because everyone that I listen to, everyone that I see agrees with me. Well, we're seeing a very narrow band because the only people that you're seeing are the people who agree with you.

not all of the other people. Let's take people who are climate ⁓ deniers, climate change deniers. I don't remember the exact ⁓ percentage, but it's something like 1 % or 2 % of scientists think that climate change is a natural thing, not caused by humans. But you would never know that if you were anti-climate change yourself, because you would be inundated with

hundreds if not thousands of authorities or say even though it's only 1 % of the the scientists out there you would never get to hear the 99 % it pushes us into this addiction you know like like we have someone in our front step always selling alcohol to an alcoholic you know it gets deeper and deeper

Speaker 2 (40:38)
Yeah.

Netflix did ⁓ a special a while back and I really thought that it would affect a lot of change and I don't think it affected any change but they did a show on ⁓ It's a Social Dilemma that spoke specifically of that and actually had program, the program, some programmers on there that were part of creating this that had ⁓

their conscious had them come out and start sharing exactly what was happening, how it happened, what they were doing and why the powers that be did it. So it's it's out there. It's documented. It's I don't know how old it is, but it's called the social dilemma. It was on Netflix. So, James, in your heart, what do you feel is coming next in the next couple of years? What's coming down the road? I know a lot of people are worried about what's coming down the road in the next couple of weeks, but I'm going to go big here.

Speaker 1 (41:30)
Hmm.

Speaker 2 (41:36)
What do you think about the next few years?

Speaker 1 (41:40)
Good question. ⁓ I believe we're going to, ⁓ this momentum, the polarization we're speaking of is going to continue to increase. We're seeing the beginning of that now with what's happening with the riots and calling in the National Guard, for example, in California. That's probably going to spread. I think we're going to see much more opposition.

and therefore much more polarization. And once again, I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing because I think this is the time in which we have to look clearly at what we have created. You know, we said before that Donald Trump is a disruptor and maybe that's what we need is a disruption so that we can remember, as we said in the beginning,

that we all want the same thing, that we're much more alike than we are different. And I'm not talking about just people that we know, but all the cultures, like being in Iraq and singing Simon and Garfunkel songs with people who I would think don't even know who Simon and Garfunkel are. We're more similar than we are apart. But I think more than likely, things are going to increase before some kind of a tipping point takes place.

It might be a natural disaster. It might be a human made disaster. ⁓ But more than likely, we're going to continue down this road until the road begins to crumble. Because that's how humans are. Humans, unfortunately, don't tend to get the message early enough. Sometimes, but not usually. We tend to change because we're forced to.

At the same time, I want to bring it away from what everyone needs to do to what I need to do. And this is why I think that getting people who are committing themselves to being depolarizing agents is so important. If we have thousands, if not millions of people who are saying, okay, I'm going to follow this. I'm going to be a leader in this. I want to help people learn these tools and play my role. ⁓

then we might be able ⁓ to dissolve more and more of this so that we don't get to the point that this becomes a desperate situation. But I'm of the ilk now. It's like, OK, bring it on. Whatever needs to happen, let it happen. I'm not here. I don't think any of us are here to stop what needs to happen. We have to go through what we have to go through so that we can come to the point of healing.

Speaker 2 (44:31)
I agree. I'm ready for it so that we can move through it and move on to the next.

Speaker 1 (44:37)
That's why I live in Mexico.

Speaker 2 (44:40)
There you go. Are you starting to see signs of spiritual leadership rising up through this darkness?

Speaker 1 (44:53)
Not really. ⁓ It's there. ⁓ You know, it's like you say rising. I think that spiritual leadership is still beneath the cloud cover. And just like an airplane, when it pushes through a bank of clouds, you go from this dark, heavy energy into suddenly it's blue skies. So I think that

for the most part, we're still, we're just beginning to hear these voices. ⁓ There are many people out there who are sharing this message to help bring compassion and love, to remember the lessons that we learned when we were in kindergarten, all of these messages, but it's still below the bank of clouds.

But I think we're rising and we're beginning to lift and I don't think it's gonna take long for us to get to that point where we break through.

Speaker 2 (45:57)
You know, it's interesting to me because I'll agree with you with that. But what I find interesting is there's a lot of people who are rising to their spiritual roles or spiritual calling, and they seem to be doing a lot of preparatory work and a lot of creation. And I feel like this is that this is has all been happening for.

the moment that sounds like it may be coming soon. So it just feels like there's been a lot of back end out of nowhere preparation in the spiritual community with different folks.

Speaker 1 (46:37)
We're the soil.

Speaker 2 (46:40)
and then all of a sudden we're going to start seeing it. I mean, you've got the book, you're out there, you've honestly dedicated your whole life to this. It's going to be interesting. So moving a little bit further than that, what would you say, because I know there's a lot of people like this, what would you say to the person listening right now who feels deeply lonely because their family, friends, or workplace has just become so divided?

and unrecognizable.

Speaker 1 (47:11)
⁓ There are many people out there who are feeling exactly what you described. They're feeling ⁓ a desperation within their own lives and the world and asking, well, what could I do? What can I do to help heal? It begins in a couple of ways. Number one, just being willing to play a positive role. As we've said to

to be a depolarizing agent. And that just means things like being curious. When someone says something that you don't agree with, to notice the part of you that wants to jump in and say, you're wrong. And then take a deep breath. And instead of trying to prove something, just ask a few questions. And we're all going to come across people who are going to disagree with us, who have different opinions. It doesn't take long.

for that to happen. The other thing is community. To join with people who, like you and I, are committed to sharing these tools and being a positive ⁓ influencer of peace and compassion and grace and just human, just normal human, some of the things we've forgotten to do. ⁓

we've gotten so caught up in being right that we forget how simple it is to be with people who don't agree with us. I mean, this has always happened, but it seems like it's more desperate today than it's ever been before. ⁓ Maybe that's true, maybe it's not, I don't know. But I think this is a time when we can begin to use these tools, even someone who doesn't seem to have a lot of backup.

The internet and many other tools are available.

Speaker 2 (49:12)
So I would say two things to that. The first would be, don't be attached to the outcome. We hear that all the time, right? You just never know what you said or how you responded to someone or even approaching them. You just don't know what ripple that that has in them that they're not gonna say to you that may come up later. And I think that that's really important because there's a lot of things with people when you talk to them about

what changed them or give me the moment. The catalyst situation or the catalyst person, totally unaware of how it affected this person down the road. The other is that I'll say is I live in a rural community where there are not many times I feel like any like-minded people like me, but certainly if there are, I don't really run across them, we'll say. So I have this fella who,

comes out and he mows my hay field. And he started asking me these political questions and this and that. And I'm like, man, I just don't even want to go down this path. So I said what I had to say. And we talked about it. And I said, it's not Republican, Democrat, or whatever. I just don't like this guy. And this is this reason. And he shared his beliefs and that he initially didn't.

The boys had a conversation with him and he gets now why he has to do that. And I didn't ask exactly what that meant. I just sort of took a guess at it. But, you know, we're both a little bit older and we were talking and he says, what happened? You know, back in the seventies and stuff, you could sit, we just talked for hours on this and it was great having a conversation with you. Thank you for talking. And I was like, you know, this was really sort of nice. And he goes, we used to do this all the time. You'd sit around

the fire and people would talk and they would disagree. They'd drink some beers and you consider that a good night. He goes, you know, now if you do that, like someone wants to shoot you. And I started laughing. I'm like, trust me, I get it. And it's what you said, like, we were this person, we were like this at one point. We've gotten to where we're at now. So there is the ability for culture to shift and change. That's all I wanna say is it's possible because it existed.

even though maybe not on the level that we thought it did because of the way we backtracked a little bit, but it did exist at one point where people could have conversations. And it warmed my heart. think truly it was a message. It was a message from the big guy to let me know that even out here in the most unexpected time, I could have this really genuine conversation. But then he texted me, maybe you'll find this funny, I don't know.

He texted me after, this was before Biden had bowed out. And I told him that I was hoping that we would get a different candidate in there. ⁓ after the debate with Kamala, he texts me and says, what did you think of the debate? And I thought, my God, if this is not like the biggest setup, like I wasn't even gonna respond to him.

And I thought, no, out of respect, I do need to make an honest response. And I just said, I think old men shouldn't debate people. And I looked at that. So, I mean, you can have that response and not have to be, you know, aggressive and demeaning about it. And I did truly feel that. thought, you know, these old fellas, like we need some young blood in here. So that's, just, I'll leave that with people in that.

Speaker 1 (52:43)
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (53:01)
It's everything you just talked about. comes up at the most inopportune times and you can just pretend and hide from it. You don't have to actively always put yourself out there, but if the opportunity arises, it's what you said earlier. It took courage for me because I did a, I mean, I was doing a lot of, I want to, do I want to engage in this conversation or don't I? And I thought, you know what, this is how.

I'm gonna engage in it because I'm tired of hiding who I am. And it went really well. And I used similar principles as to what you talked about, but I also had a fellow very unexpectedly who was way more open than I would have expected.

Speaker 1 (53:42)
Yeah. You you hit the nail right on the head when you spoke about courage. And this is what we need today. People like us who aren't addicted. We all have different aspects of wanting to be right, but who are more concerned with reuniting, with even bringing people in who don't agree with us. We need to come back together, but it takes courage.

to have the conversations that you had. Many of us would say, you know, just best not to bring it up, best not to talk about it because it's so polarizing. ⁓ But we can talk about it if we do it in respectful ways. And I think that if enough of us do that, like you said, that it didn't used to be this way. We used to be able to express ourselves and our opinions, but it...

It didn't need to change the whole world or end relationships. And I think we can get back to that place again. But we have to be willing to open up, to let go of my need to be right, to have the perfect opinion, whatever it might be. I have to do the work, not expect other people to do the work. And if I do the work, then...

It will inspire others to do the same. That's what I believe.

Speaker 2 (55:12)
I totally agree. And James, for those who are interested in your work and learning more about this, joining in with you, how do they connect? How do they get more?

Speaker 1 (55:23)
Well, they can once again go to the books website and please join the movement. Take that one minute survey. That will be very helpful. And the website is de-polarize.com. So it's depolarize, but with a dash there, .com. Or if they want to get more information on me or the other books, you can just go to jamesftwiman.com.

Speaker 2 (55:47)
Okay, great. I'll make sure I get that all in the show notes and I'll do the overlay of that on the video as well. As we're winding up here with the show, usually I ask three more personal fun questions, but today I really am being pulled to shift gears, James, and I would like to do a quick meditation based on your work, if that's okay with you.

Speaker 1 (56:08)
Yes, please. Okay.

Speaker 2 (56:13)
So everyone, take a moment to sit and still yourself. Let us each take a breath into the place beyond right and wrong, where presence is deeper than position and love is not a reward but a remembering. We call back the pieces of ourselves lost in the battle of belief. The words unsaid, the bridges burned, the moments we hardened. We welcome them home now in the arms of compassion. I don't know.

Maybe, I love you. To every soul who sees the world differently, we bless you, not because we agree, but because we are all part of this great tapestry too. To the moments we feel afraid, reactive, or alone, we offer pause, not to retreat, but to realign with the sacred thread that holds us all. I don't know. Maybe, I love you. Maybe every conversa- may every-

May every conversation be an altar, every silence a choice, and every act a chance to remember who we truly are. Peace is not found in the loudest voice, but in the quiet decision to open again and again and again. We are the bridge, we are the breath, we are the blessing. Let love go first. And so it is, and so we begin.

Dreams and your last thoughts as we finish up.

Speaker 1 (57:43)
I think you said it so beautifully and perfectly. Let's begin. Let's do the work. Let's commit ourselves to this. This is only going to happen. We're only going to come back together if there are enough of us who are saying yes and making the commitment to do this work. And it's wonderful work. And if we do it, I think it's not going to take long for us to see the fruit of the work.

and the harvest that we're preparing for now.

Speaker 2 (58:15)
I agree. think it's going to happen really quickly. Love is powerful thing. A big thank you for being on the show, James. Much appreciation for all you're doing, your work to support and elevate individuals, humanity, and truly to your lifelong commitment to this path, because I do know that you have committed your life to this path. Also, a big thanks to all our listeners who've taken time out of your day to join us until next time. And remember, embrace that wild soul.

Thank you for joining us for this episode of Wild Soul Gathering's Happy Hour for the Spiritually Curious. To learn more about our guests, please go to our website, WildSoulsGathering.com. We're very eager to hear from our listeners what you thought of the episode, topics you might like us to cover in the future, your thoughts on spirituality, questions you may have. Please feel free to send us an email at WildSoulsGathering.gmail.com.

This is your host, Dr. Sandra Marie, sending each of you peace and love. Until we meet again, embrace your wild soul.