Ideal Practice
Ideal Practice
#60. Strength in Vulnerability: Shawn Helvey's Refreshing Approach to Men's Mental Health
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Today, y’all, we’re talking about the guys. :)
I met Shawn Helvey when he reached out to me in advance of a move to our area. In true proactive form, he was trying to get the lay of the land so he could understand the mental health culture in our area.
I liked him immediately.
So of course, it was only a matter of time before I invited him to join me on the podcast.
Shawn Helvey is a licensed psychotherapist and the founder of Man Made Mentors, a group practice focused on helping young men and their families.
In this fascinating episode, we explored his unique approach to therapy, the importance of specializing, and how his life experiences have shaped his work. (There were some great stories there!)
We also tackled the topic of male emotional vulnerability, and the work he does to help men become emotionally available and strong.
Shawn is passionate about mentoring his clients, and his staff. He strikes me as kind, emotionally strong, and refreshingly direct. I can see why his practice stays full. :)
I hope you enjoy this incredible conversation on the integration of strength and vulnerability in psychotherapy, and how Sean Helvey's innovative approach is making a positive impact on the lives of men and their families.
Give it a listen.
~Wendy
P.S. While you’re here, can I ask a favor?
If you enjoyed this episode, please take a minute to share your 5 star review and a few words over on Apple Podcasts or even Spotify. If you’ve been meaning to do that, but keep putting it off, how about heading over there now? Then send me a screen shot so we can celebrate together! :)
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TODAY’S GUEST: SHAWN HELVEY
Shawn Helvey is a therapist, mentor, and coach who specializes in working with men of all ages trying to find a deeper purpose in their lives. He earned his master’s degree in Mental Health Counseling from the University of Central Florida and is a Licensed Counselor in Tennessee and Montana.
After working in an agency setting, he founded ManMade Mentors in 2016. Today, he works with men of all ages across the country. In addition to seeing clients, he is a clinical supervisor consulting with and supporting the next generation of mental health therapists who are actively pursuing licensure.
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MENTIONED:
- His Website: www.ShawnHelvey.com
- His Podcast: The ManMade Podcast
- Episode 47: Why I’ve Changed My Mind About Having a Niche Practice
- Episode 42: Thinking Big: How to Grow and Manage a Large Group Practice with Amanda Landry
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Wendy Pitts Reeves, LCSW
Host, Ideal Practice
Private Practice Coach and Mentor
www.WendyPittsReeves.com
Wendy@WendyPittsReeves.com
You're listening to ideal practice, episode number 60. Hey guys, have you ever met a colleague that you just clicked with immediately Like someone who's brand new, but that you feel like you've known forever? That's kind of how I felt when I met today's guest. He's a little different than anyone I've had on the show so far. So today you get to meet Sean Helvey. Sean is a licensed psychotherapist and he's a guy who has learned how to integrate strength and vulnerability in his own personal life, and now he helps other men do the same. His practice is fascinating, his story is fascinating, and I have so enjoyed getting to know him, and today it is my pleasure to introduce this great guy to you. So stay tuned. Hi, i'm Wendy Pitts Reeves and, with over two decades of experience in the private practice world, i've built my six figure business while learning a lot of lessons the hard way. This is the first podcast that shows you how to apply the principles of energy alignment and strategy to build a practice that is profit centered, but people forward. This is the ideal practice podcast. Hey guys, and welcome back. This is Wendy, your host here at ideal practice. Thank you so much for tuning in to another week, another episode here on the show. I'm so glad you're here because this conversation today is a little different than anything I have covered so far on the program. I love that we get to do this today. So here's the backstory A couple of years ago, about two years and a few months ago or so, i got a phone call out of the blue from a therapist in Montana who was in the middle of a move to East Tennessee.
Speaker 1:And how he found me I don't know, but he reached out and said hey, my name is so-and-so and I'm moving to the area and I'm just kind of wondering if maybe we could meet for coffee. And I'm like huh, okay. And he wanted to kind of get the lay of the land to understand the local mental health community, to figure out how he could plug in. And I have been here for a long time, i know a lot of folks. So it kind of made sense And it was sort of a surprise at the same time. But how cool was that? So indeed, we met for coffee at our local favorite little independent coffee shop and have never looked back since. Like from the minute I met him. I really liked him. I think he is probably a really good therapist, a really good dad, a really good husband. He's a really just a great guy all the way around And every conversation I have with him, we just go all kinds of places And I feel like we could probably talk for hours.
Speaker 1:So Sean Helvey he is a therapist, a mentor, a coach who specializes in working with men of all ages. So he works with young people as well as men of all ages and their families, trying to help them find a deeper purpose in their lives, to make some peace, to own their strength in a healthier way. He has a master's degree in mental health counseling from the University of Central Florida, but he is licensed in Tennessee and Montana, which is kind of cool. After working in an agency, he founded a practice called Man Made Mentors, which I love. I love that name. That was back in 2016. And today he works with men of all ages across the country. In addition to seeing clients, he also is a clinical supervisor who provides consulting and supports the next generation of mental health therapists who are actively pursuing licensure.
Speaker 1:And, as you'll hear in this conversation, honestly, sean is a therapist who didn't wanna be a therapist. He's a group practice owner who never thought he'd own a group practice, and it's really kind of funny how his own path has unfolded. I love these kinds of stories and how he has learned along the way to take his own experience and use it to benefit others. It's just beautiful. This was a whole conversation, y'all about strength and vulnerability, so let's get in to the interview. Hello everyone and welcome. This is Wendy, and I am so excited about the guests that we have for you today on the podcast. You are about to meet a fella that I have just come to know. Over the last what year? two years now, i think.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's been. Time is already passing, It is, And so I wanna introduce you to Sean Helvey, who you have already heard a little bit about in the intro, but let me just bring him on and say Sean, say hello, Hi hi Wendy, Hello, everyone who's listening.
Speaker 2:It's really good to be here.
Speaker 1:It's so good to be here. You and I met a couple of years ago when you were in town visiting and we wanted to have coffee and talk about the practices that are in our area and colleagues in our area and kind of how to get started around here, and I was really impressed with you actually from the very beginning and have thoroughly enjoyed every conversation that we've had. So I'm really excited about having you here today because I think you and I really click on a couple of areas and it's gonna be fun to dive into those.
Speaker 2:Yeah, i'm excited too, and likewise from the very beginning, i think actually, i spoke with you first over the phone.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's right.
Speaker 2:When I was exploring getting licensed here and I found you on Cycolteac today and I loved your profile and how kind of non-clinical it was And then since then I've just been a huge fan of yours. So it's been good.
Speaker 1:That's a hoot, you know. I never have asked you how you found me.
Speaker 2:That's right, i didn't even think about that, i still remember you have, i think, a John Lennon quote or a Beatles quote, at least on your I do, or I did, so fun Yep And I was like that's cool, that's just as like normal human stuff. you know, it doesn't always have to be like I work with CBT.
Speaker 1:Absolutely. I appreciate that. What a great point Right off the bat, right off the bat. This is very funny, but I have I think I still have it there. I can't remember it as I revised that a few times But I have had for years a quote from John Lennon that says life is what happens when we're making other plans. I've had that on my website forever or on my Cycolteac today profile And you would be amazed at how many clients I've gotten because of that. When I ask people why they come, it is uncanny How many people say well, i really like that quote. I'm like that's a heck of a way to pick a therapist, but okay.
Speaker 2:Well, you had some instinct because it's, I think, a good way to pick a therapist.
Speaker 1:And it speaks to the importance of being a human being for our people. So for those of you who are listening, Sean is he has his own podcast also, which I think you'll probably hear about. It's called the Manmade Podcast, And we will sort of link to that and to his website, which we'll introduce you to as well. Sean, tell us a little bit about let's just get to know you a little bit. Tell us about who you are, what you do, Introduce the folks. Tell us a little bit about you.
Speaker 2:How I The terrible question.
Speaker 1:We all start there I know Love this question.
Speaker 2:I've always loved this question through my whole life. But I think the problem when I was younger is I would take an hour I'd tell you every little thing that happens And I'll probably try to stick to the highlights this time. So I kind of was a lost young man and then stumbled upon working at a wilderness therapy camp when I was 24 because my uncle worked there And he is not really the therapeutic type, he's kind of more of the like country rancher type, but his tough love kind of attitude really worked well in the wilderness therapy space And he was logistics coordinator kind of role And it's kind of like the. He was also sort of a residential treatment center out in the kind of Montana wilderness And he was just kind of like the camp sort of father figure, all the boys I like that, yeah, and it worked great for him.
Speaker 2:And then I stumbled upon.
Speaker 2:It had no real outdoor skills, even though I said on my application I did, and over the next five summers I just fell in love with, well, a, the outdoors and really kind of back country expeditions and really getting in touch with nature and then, b, really seeing how young people could and how and I should say at 24, i was a young person How much I learned about myself through that process, i think.
Speaker 2:Specifically for me, i realized that if I was going to be dispensing any type of wisdom, i really had to be practicing those things myself, and it would be hypocritical if I wasn't. And that was the reason that I had, in my youth, dismissed so many messages from adults because they told me what to do And then they weren't doing it, and that's just not kind of a way to be. So I started really considering that over those years I read books, i started growing as a person, i really strongly got on my path of self growth. And then there was this kind of point in the road where I was actually deciding between an MBA to because I already had my bachelor's in business or a counseling degree, and the reason I chose counseling was because I didn't qualify for the one year MBA program, and that was it. At that point I was like, well, if I'm going to go to school for the same amount of time either way, then I want to do the thing that I am more excited about.
Speaker 1:I love it. So I hadn't asked you this. I was going, i was curious.
Speaker 2:So you have an undergrad in business and at BA right Yeah, and it's a double major in marketing and entrepreneurial studies, which What a hoot.
Speaker 1:Marketing and entrepreneurial studies is your undergrad And then so you had already done that when you started working at this residential treatment center.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I had literally just graduated that May And then in June I went out to Montana and worked for the summer.
Speaker 1:That's super interesting. And so you worked in this place off and on for the next several years, and then we're ready to go to grad school and which kind of decides so what do I do now? And it was MBA versus counseling And the universe went hey, how about this way?
Speaker 2:And so And that's exactly a great way to put it I really wasn't strong either way. I didn't really like therapists And up until working at Wilderness Therapy Camp I didn't have any contact with them. So I had never been to one, like just I had a negative perception. I had really honestly like I don't feel like I had seen them in television or heard people talk about I mean, and that was back in the you know, early 2000s, so therapy wasn't, and as I say, these days, in vogue like it is now. There are countless representations of therapists on television and the movies these days and kids kind of almost feel proud to say that they're going to therapy or they're talking to their therapist. And when I was in high school, I didn't know anybody.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, that is true.
Speaker 2:It is better as far as that goes It is better and I'm glad that people are accessing it a lot more. So, yeah, the universe helps me make that decision by me being maybe a year past the point where I could qualify for the one year MBA program and and I'm so happy that that's what happened that was definitely the right thing for me.
Speaker 1:I love that sort of a very cool sort of parallel here. So I also worked in a residential treatment center that was wilderness based. I think you do that. I can't remember if we talked about that or not. My last real job so-called real job was as the family therapy director at an RTC. That is that exactly that kind of thing. My office was in a log cabin. It was all we were always doing outdoor kinds of stuff, and I have a huge respect for that kind of program because I do think it's so good for the kids and so so many levels. And when I decided to go get my LCSW, i often said it was like getting an MBA, because it was just so practical and you could do just about anything with it.
Speaker 2:You're an LPC.
Speaker 1:You're a licensed professional counselor, or LCPC, in your license in two states Montana and Tennessee.
Speaker 2:That's right.
Speaker 1:Which is very practical and super cool. But it's not common that I meet a therapist who has a background in business, so I love that. So when you got your counseling degree, when you got your your masters right And did you go into agency work or did you go straight into private practice, like what was your process or your path at that point?
Speaker 2:So I had kind of dismissed the idea of private practice. So I got my master's degree in Florida, the University of Central Florida, and a couple of recent graduates had come in and talked about how they'd gone into private practice right out of school And I guess my read on them was like that they were struggling. They kind of tried to present it like, yeah, you can do this and this is how, but it seemed like they didn't get as many clients as they wanted. There was a lot of kind of setup of the business side of things and figuring out the logistics that seemed overwhelming to me at the time And I didn't have an access point to another, you know a private practice practitioner who would take me on as an intern. So, yeah, i basically. And then the other piece was and as I've done my whole life, i'm a Navy brat We moved all around the world.
Speaker 2:My family notably lived in Italy for three years when I was a kid And so I moved days after I graduated with my master's degree from Florida to Montana, to a different place in Montana that I had never been or lived before, to Boseman, to be with a friend And he has a background in working with that I met him at the World Donors Camp and we were going to start a thing together And in fact initially man made ventures was our thing. And then he kind of split off in a different direction and I maintained this business. But so I got there and I didn't know anybody and I had reached out to some people beforehand, and a couple of private practice practitioners actually And they said, yeah, we don't really do that, you know, keep looking. And so I got a job as the funnily the program manager of a day treatment program which was collaboration between the school district and a local nonprofit. It's a statewide nonprofit agency called Youth Dynamics that does mental health, offers mental health services to young people for adolescents in particular, and kids and adolescents.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and so there was community service division, and then there was the day treatment program, and I was the program manager of that.
Speaker 1:So you went straight from school to running a program a day treatment program, straight off the bat Wow. Was that? I bet that was because of your experience at the camp over the years. You already came to that program with a lot of experience, even though Yeah.
Speaker 2:Well, interestingly, it was actually because on my resume so I had worked in the outdoor adventure program at UCF while I was there And I had become a lead, which is like a student manager, and I've been that for a year and a half or two, and so I applied for just a therapist's job with this organization. But the person who was responsible for hiring said, hey, you have managerial experience, would you be interested in interviewing for this job? And I said I need a job. She said the therapist's job is filled already. So I interviewed for this. I said sure, and she liked me and it was actually really great in a lot of ways because the therapist who was already hired, david Hardy, is incredible close friend And I consult with him weekly. Still, he's so good And without his support there I'm I don't know I might have been okay, but he definitely was super important. And, yeah, i really kind of was excited about that challenge And I think in the two and a half years I was there I felt really good about how we grew the program and improved the reputation.
Speaker 2:It had kind of hit a really rough spot before I was there where most schools didn't want to refer to it anymore because of things that they had heard that were happening. Oh really Interesting, nothing you know, unethical or terrible, just not positive outcomes basically. And I think by the time I left it was the other way around And there was a great collaboration between the school district and our agency And I didn't get paid much at all, and so that is when I decided to leave. And still, at that point, going into private practice was terrifying And I didn't know anybody who was doing it. I did. I was in a men's group at the time and one of the other men in them two of the other men in the men's group were therapists And I kind of asked them a few questions, but not that many questions, and so I just kind of like I don't know. I felt like I just dove off of something, not knowing what would happen next, and so glad that I did.
Speaker 1:So did you? so you were saying that you originally that you you didn't like therapists and then you end up going into counseling and then you didn't really like the idea of private practice either. It's not that I yeah yeah, that's a good question.
Speaker 2:It's, i think, that I always hoped to go into private practice, but for a few years there I felt like it was unattainable. Got it, yeah, it felt like it was already saturated, and I think in Florida that was more the case, that but, but, yeah, but in Montana it definitely was not. In fact there's still kind of a Darth of therapists there. But I think, yeah, really what changed was just, i think, that as I got a really strong handle on my clinical skills, some energy in me opened up that said Hey, dude, you can. You have a business background, you can run a business, you'll figure these things out and you should try it.
Speaker 1:I want to put a pin in this for a second, because you said something about the people that you saw. Okay, so this is coming together that when you you saw people who went straight from graduate school into private practice, they seemed to struggle a little bit, and you were looking at that as a little bit of it sounds like a little bit of both partly clinical and partly business. That it was just. It was kind of hard for them And you're like, yeah, i don't think I'm ready for that. I want to say I have. You can call me by us if you want to. I think it's really good.
Speaker 1:I personally would not have gone straight from grad school into private practice. I think you need to get some experience, and clinical experience, especially with a, and preferably with a, i think, with a wide range of populations, because you never know what's going to show up when you're in private practice. It's a whole different world out there. What you had, though I really do think that what you had that was unique, which I can also relate to, is that you had your undergrad, you had a business background, which does help you think that way, but you also had a fair amount of clinical experience through lots of different things before you got here. So at the agency you're saying you did really good work. It sounded like you kind of helped turn that program around, which is kind of cool. And then it's like, all right, i think I'm ready, i'm ready to get into this and step into it.
Speaker 2:Ready enough, i was still ready. In fact, the friend of mine that I started the business with really kind of pushed me over there one day as we met at a coffee house. He was like, dude, do it. I was like give me space, but I did then do it, and I'm glad for his encouragement.
Speaker 1:We need people like that in our life, who can see what we are capable of, sometimes before we see it, and see what we're ready for before we see it Absolutely, and then all we have to do is listen.
Speaker 1:Right, yeah, i love that, i love that. Dude, it's time. So tell us a little bit, then, about how your business has evolved over time. I'm always interested in this question, like how people get started, how they, how you're thinking about your practice in the beginning, how you were thinking about it today, like just walk us through your business model as it has, as it has become over time, absolutely Yeah.
Speaker 2:And then, as I reflect on it, i just realized that it's just I don't even want to say different than I thought it would be, because I didn't think it would be. Well, first I didn't think I would go into private practice for a while, and then I didn't think that I would ever kind of grow that practice into an agency, and I wouldn't say that I was completely shut down to either of those ideas. Over time It just didn't. It just didn't seem attainable to me at some point. And then, at different points, it became attainable, for whatever reason, and that's what happened. So, yeah, first being in private practice alone, it was maybe scary for like a month, and then it was like wildly amazing.
Speaker 1:Really So. Did you just like rent an office and start somewhere?
Speaker 2:That's right, I actually rented an office. I put a psychology today profile up. I rented an office It was weird And a building that was getting torn down. I think my lease was like for four months And I did that on the side in my last few months at the agency job. Ah, okay.
Speaker 1:Good. So you had a full-time job and you started to practice on the side. I did the same thing. Yeah, i did. Okay, in a building that was going to be torn down.
Speaker 2:Yeah, And I did that for maybe four months. I had only a few clients, maybe three or four. I had had more kind of consults than that, but three or four regular weekly clients And then I moved fully into private practice, kind of on a prayer I guess, and I soon thereafter got a new office in a building that was about to be torn down. That's also kind of part of the story of Bozeman right now, because it's just growing so rapidly that every building is being replaced with a five-story building.
Speaker 1:That happened to you twice. Two different office spaces.
Speaker 2:Yes, and I knew both times when I moved in that that would be happening. Wow, so it wasn't sort of I'm not a victim of that, but yeah And then. So I think, marketing-wise, what I did that was smart at the beginning is so I had met a therapist through somebody that I worked with, who had been in the community for like 25 years. She is kind of the Bozeman equivalent of you when you she is a benevolent person in my life who I met and we liked each other And she was. She told me, when you go into private practice, just get ready, i'm going to send you some people.
Speaker 2:And she did And I really appreciated her for it And she was just there for consultation and wisdom and advice And so. But other than that, i was like you know, therapists are really the best people to market to, especially in a place where all therapists are full. So I kind of made a little flyer, a letter with the picture, whatever, and then I sent it out to like 35 therapists. Okay, my wife helped me at the time, she was, and so, yeah, probably in three months I had to as full of a client load as I wanted, just by telling other therapists that you were available because everybody else was so drowning.
Speaker 1:I totally just earlier this week somebody was telling me that, no, yeah, i did a consult with someone a few days ago who was saying that one of the things she had done was go into psych. this is a little tip for everybody that piggybacks perfectly on what Sean is saying that she said she went into psychology today and did a filtered search for people who are not taking clients in her zip code or her zip codes around her, because people say that on psych today and full not currently accepting clients and consciously started reaching out to them and saying I've got time, i've got room and didn't take long to get business.
Speaker 1:That's great.
Speaker 2:I love that Totally and then I also reached out to therapists and I didn't search by who was full, but rather by the therapist whose profile I liked. And then I just reached out and I was like, hey, let's grab a coffee, similar to how I did with you. Because there's kind of two hugely valuable reasons for this. One is consultation. If I meet a therapist who's been doing it for a long time, i probably have a lot to learn and then eager to hear their thoughts. But and B, it's a referral source If this person. I know that when I talk to another therapist I decide pretty quickly if I think that they're a good therapist and if I would refer to them. And then so I try to represent myself both as the person that I am and as the therapist that I am accurately, and my hope is that that also indicates to them that I am good at my job And then that they'll think of me when they want to refer people.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so you pretty actively started building relationships with colleagues. That's all it really took to get this off the ground.
Speaker 2:Absolutely, and in private practice it's just so important because it's an isolating way to do business And if you don't reach out to other colleagues, you're gonna just be a therapist out in the wild on your own and-.
Speaker 1:And in Montana you're really on the wild on your own.
Speaker 2:Yeah, in other places in Montana than I was In Bozeman. it's almost like a big city for you.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:But also it keeps us I don't know grounded. I've seen therapists who have become very disconnected And some of the things I hear them say I think, ooh, that's, i don't know. I like it when people try things and take risks calculated risks And then there are some people who are just almost like shooting from the hip And I think this seems like maybe a little irresponsible And maybe the reason that you've been able to go this far outside of the lines is because you haven't been talking to other therapists.
Speaker 1:There's a happy middle ground in there somewhere.
Speaker 2:I think so, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:So were you focusing on a particular population at the time, from the beginning? From the beginning? yeah, okay, tell me about that.
Speaker 2:Ever since wilderness, i wanted to work with teens. I loved working with young men and their families, which is that's what is on my website young men and their families, although at this point, because I work with other counselors, it's young people and their families, and not just young people, just young people and men of all ages and their families, and then also couples and women, if they decide that we're the right fit for them, and I really think that what you said earlier about seeing clients in different-.
Speaker 1:Settings different types.
Speaker 2:Different populations is important, especially at the beginning, because, a you don't know who you wanna work with and B it's just like that experience. all of that experience can add together and is valuable for every population. Just because you're working with somebody over here doesn't mean that what you gain isn't applicable to what you're doing over here 100%.
Speaker 1:It all contributes to your skills as a therapist, and all of it 100%. Everything you do. I don't care what you do, and I have had, i've done a lot, and every single thing I've ever done, whether it worked or not, has contributed to my skills as a business owner and as a clinician. One of the things that I loved about I told you this before we got on, before we started to record that on your website, manmadementorscom that you have asterisks with a therapy I mean a therapy with an asterisk Yes, an asterisk which I immediately was like ooh, that's interesting. What does that mean?
Speaker 1:And there are a couple of things about your work that just have captivated me from the beginning, and one is I don't know if you heard it or not, but I did an episode recently specifically on the concept of having a niche practice and the pros and cons of that. You are one of the folks who has I used to be. I've always been told that's a really good idea, but I've kind of resisted it myself. I've changed my mind about that And you are, to me, one of the examples of what good happens when somebody gets really, really clear about what their niche is, what their messaging is and who they really wanna serve.
Speaker 1:And focusing on teens or focusing on young adults is one thing, but the whole thing about focusing on men and in particular what you do, i know has really stood out to me because there is such a huge need for it And you have this whole kind of outdoor vibe about what you do, even if you're just doing traditional psychotherapy sitting in an office with someone. I know that there's been an experiential component to it. I think maybe you can tell me a little bit more about that. But I think people are hungry for that kind of thing because it's so hard for well, i'm not gonna put words in your mouth. You tell me, am I right about that? Have you had an experiential component? And am I right about that, about the guys? Tell me about that whole sort of focus, that part of your practice.
Speaker 2:I'd love to And, yeah, you're right about all of that. I've resisted having to defined of a niche because I heard from a professor in grad school who I really respected many times that you get the clients who you're supposed to, and I really I don't like the idea that somehow I know who I should be working with. I want to be shown that through the clients that I get. So I don't wanna prematurely eliminate anybody as a possibility, but I knew I wanted to kind of focus on young men and eventually men and their families. And the reason I have on the website therapy with an asterisk is because there's well one of the biggest things that I do with any new client is I reframe the idea of what therapy is with me versus what it's been for them with somebody else, or, if they haven't had therapy with somebody else, just what it is in their head, because everybody has an idea coming in of what this is And I don't, i don't know, i'm not like so far away from that that it's not similar but it's different in that.
Speaker 2:And I think kind of some of the big messages to therapists in school these days are you're a conduit, you're there to kind of bring up the clients knowing right. So there's very little self-disclosure, no advice giving is really taught strongly And what I think happens. So I, by the way, i agree with those to some extent, right, i don't think that we are professional advice givers and we should not say you know, what you need to do is just go and tell them this, or, and we shouldn't be talking about ourselves the whole time. And there are really valuable spots where we talk about ourselves, whether it's an experience that we've had that's similar, that they can draw lessons from, or whether it's sharing a little bit of ourselves so that they can understand that we're a real human. The purpose of this is that it lessens the hierarchy.
Speaker 2:I don't like to. I don't like to participate in creating a hierarchy in the counseling relationship, because I think what that leaves a client with is this idea that the therapist knows more than they do and that they have to go to the therapist if they want the real big, tall answers to their questions. And ultimately, my goal with every client is to get them to a place where they actually can look at their thought patterns and their behavior patterns and understand them, why they started that way, how they're either serving them or not serving them, and then they can tweak them and develop them as they continue to grow right, that's what I'm doing, that's what I think everybody can do, and if you wanna live the best life should do And I don't want a person to be, i don't wanna enable a person to think that I'm the only person that can help them do that. I wanna teach them the skills so that they can do it, which means that I can't be some all-knowing force, so I'm always trying to lower, kind of yeah, to even out the hierarchy.
Speaker 1:For that reason, I want to push back that on that just a little bit, in that I Totally agree about the hierarchy piece. Like that, we, we are collaborators, we are in this together and you in fact there's something on I think I saw something on your website about that. We walk side-by-side With the sort of thinking about the concept of hiking and they were side-by-side on this trail.
Speaker 1:We're gonna follow this path and see where it takes us, but I do love that and I also feel like clients need us to lead them in some way, because if they knew what to do, they wouldn't come to see us at all.
Speaker 2:And let me actually like I would love to because I'm glad that you said that because actually I think both of those things are exactly true Perspective to and it and it's like, yes, i'm trying to lower the hierarchy, but also, yes, i want them to know when they come in, i have a lot of skills and insight from meeting with lots of people and doing my own work That I can kind of offer them get the ball rolling, get them to start engaging with on their own and then eventually, hopefully, they just take that ball. But you're, you're absolutely right in the beginning. I am offering more Than I think many therapists with. I think a lot of therapists come out of school these days And they just ask a lot of questions and they do a lot of reflections And I've had lots of clients come to me and say my therapist was empathetic But they never would like just tell me.
Speaker 2:You know, they never just give me an answer to a question. Yes, good Lord. Yes, there's like an element of that that's annoying. It's like, hey, listen, all right, i get, but but just tell me, what do you think about this? and then you know what they taught me in school. To say is like. Can I ask why it's important for you to know what I?
Speaker 1:think Oh my gosh Yes.
Speaker 2:That is the kind of question that will make somebody crazy. Yeah, it makes me crazy. Yeah, it makes me crazy too. So so, yes, like I, you're right, we do have this skill set and this knowledge and it is something to be passed on, but not forever. I know that's kind of the right, right right right them to a point where they recognize that, yeah, i, i have this, but I accrued it through my own processes and part of that was going to graduate school, but part of most of it was just being a right.
Speaker 1:Being a human life experience, i'm gonna share what I've got with you and I'm gonna show you how to do it yourself. So in your so tell me about. So you were at one point you were a 24 year old young man who Didn't care for this whole concept about therapy, and then the world opened up in a whole new way for you. So I think you probably are talking to your earlier self often in your work.
Speaker 2:No, yeah, aren't we all? Yeah, and I like to really connect with that. When I, when I have young people come in here and I see how resistant they are too, and it doesn't matter what their resistance to therapy, listen to their parents, like you know, working hard for a good future, and I I'm like, yep, i get it, you know, and I'll even reflect some thoughts that I would have had at that time and they just they're like, yeah, exactly right, totally.
Speaker 1:So what is that? is that why you tell me about, like, what, what has led you In particular, to want to reach out to men and to young men and to men and their families? Was it that that where you were as a young adult? or is it something that you just like? because I feel like this is sort of. It struck me in the last couple of years how, like, what you're doing is unique and I'd like it to be less unique. I'd like this to be a more common thing. To be honest, talk to me about that, about what's, what is it that takes? You're enough.
Speaker 1:It's unusual, but we know that in our industry it does, at least at the master's level. It tends to be more female dominant. So to have a be a male therapist at all, we need more of them and to Specifically make it easier for men to ask for help, for it to come in, because often it's their wives that do it, their girlfriends that do it, whatever, right. So you want to. You want to just speak to that a little bit about how you've chosen or why you've chosen, like this is your thing.
Speaker 2:Yes, definitely. So yeah, I've always been, since I was a kid and then I tried to kind of abandon it, but it didn't work. But I've always had a really strong access to my I would just say feminine energy, my, my, my emotions, to speak about what I'm thinking and feeling. That was I. I was compelled, i couldn't not do it and I always felt Unmanly because of it. I always felt like the model of a man was the stoic man who Didn't need to say much, didn't need to explain himself and just felt confident and knowing himself and didn't need anybody to reflect it back.
Speaker 2:And and that's, i think, a pretty common idea in our culture and it's Maybe true for some, although I'm not sure of that, but not not true for many. And and truly I think, like, as We evolve as a culture, right now, our men are in a massive period of change where Women don't want that anyway. I mean, right like women are talking about wanting men who are emotionally available, and That's I want all people to be emotionally available, right Like that. That is a goal of mine for just everyone. But that Happens when men can see a way to be emotionally available and be strong.
Speaker 1:Absolutely.
Speaker 2:That's the thing that I think I Started to gain some traction with through my work at the wilderness camp is I was like oh, i can like, i Can be vulnerable, i can talk about my mistakes, i can cry sometimes with other men, i can be, scared.
Speaker 2:I can be scared. Fear men, try, get. Try. Getting a man who is not very emotional to to admit that he's afraid Right impossible. He'll definitely tell you when he's angry because for men, anger is popular emotion, anger is strength, anger is easy. Anger is easy because of how it looks. You know it looks strong and people back off and you're like, yeah, that's right, i'm a strong man. I would say real strength comes from Honesty with your emotions. It's much. It takes much more strength to be a man who says I'm afraid and Stand tall and be confident in that fear than it does to be a man who says I'm angry.
Speaker 1:A Men, a men and a men. Lord mercy.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so that's it. I want to help men see that there's a way to be strong and vulnerable, to be empathetic and firm at the same time, or Maybe not at the same time, maybe one and then the other, but you know that's not either or it's not either or, and and being sensitive is Not a bad word.
Speaker 2:I mean Being sensitive. Think about that. Like you, you receive more messages than others. You, you understand more about what's going on. You feel it. What a gift. Yeah, embrace it, don't deny it, and know that if you learn how to harness it, you are even stronger than other people.
Speaker 1:That is just beautiful, sean. I love that. If you learn how to harness it, you are even stronger. Because that is so true, because you are a more whole person. You're accessing all parts of your brain, all parts of your heart.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:I did for several years. I used to volunteer with a juvenile justice program You'll love this where we took kids who had their first experience with juvenile court out for a four-day off-trail wilderness experience and It was part of a larger program but this was kind of like the pinnacle. The program was the part that I was involved in and on that four-day it was a. It was a tough, tough experience for them. These were kids who had never spent a night out in the woods. They had and and it was. It was physically quite challenging because we were going it was up at Big South Fork, if you know where that is, and we were going up and down some pretty steep ravines and crossing creeks and climbing cliffs and all this kind of stuff. And there was always a day on that four-day experience when we did rock climbing and rappelling and they would repel, depending upon the trip and depending upon where we were. There were times when it might have been like a 135 foot cliff. That was a straight down, smooth face. There were times when it was more like a 75-80 foot cliff but you couldn't see anything because you're on the top of the trees. It didn't really matter what it is when you ask somebody to back up to a cliff and lean over it and tell themselves that they're not gonna die, like a lot of things happen, right. Yeah, i know you get this right. When I saw the teenage boys in particular, it was actually really powerful for the girls too. It was powerful in a whole different way for the girls, but I will never forget a boy who was like 14 on one of these trips, who it took quite a while for him to find the strength inside to back up. The hardest part about rappelling is that first step over the edge and the man who was leading this program was both sensitive and gentle and strong and such a mentor and such an example for these kids And he just talked this kid through it until he found what he needed and I will never forget.
Speaker 1:I plan to tell the story, but I'm gonna tell it anyway because it's a good one I will never forget. I was about 10 feet away. I was on the second level of belay, so we had like a series of systems right For safety. I could see this kid. His legs were trembling so much that his pants were like they're right. He had one tear rolling down his eyes, just one tear down the side of his face And he did not have to do it. They always had the option of stepping out. And we said it takes just as much courage to say no, i'm not going to do this as it does to do it. There's no right way here. You figure it out. And if they needed to not do it, we would walk them to the bottom. There was a way to do it. It was a long walk, it was quite a way around, but we would do it And no shame, no guilt, no pressure at all. But if you want to do this, we're gonna help you.
Speaker 1:And when that kid and he was kind of like the quote, the run of the litter on this particular trip we had about 12, 14 kids And it was always a mix of kids who were in the program And we also had kids who were not. So there was this really kind of interesting blend in socially and culturally among those kids And he was, he was kind of a pain, he was a really hyper and he was younger than the others And he, you know, anyway, when he did that, he made that moment, he made that move And he stepped over the edge and began to found out that he wasn't going to die. And you know it's so exciting. As he began to lean out and to start to walk down the cliff, he started shouting, you know, woohoo. I can't deal on the mic, i'll hurt everybody's ears. But like big time. And when you got to the bottom I couldn't even see him anymore, but we could hear him just yelling and woohooing. I like crazy.
Speaker 1:And I mean it was one of my favorite moments on those trips, because that night every kid in that group kept saying yeah, buddy, you did it, you did it. Cause he was saying did you see what I did today? Did you see what I did today? Did you see what I did today? And they were like yeah, buddy, we saw it, we saw it. High five, high five, it was. So. I guarantee you that changed that kid's life And he was terrified. He was terrified and supported in being terrified and seeing with much more respect afterwards, both internally and externally, and that's what you're doing for your clients.
Speaker 2:That's a beautiful example. I, you know, have shivers or goosebumps or however you say it, and yeah, i had so many similar experiences with young people and myself too. You know, i did things out there that I had never done and I was scared, and you know, i had an extra motivation to to lead by example. But one of the one of the quotes that I love the most is that courage isn't the absence of fear, but rather doing the hard thing even though you're afraid, and that's that's almost just kind of right there, exactly what I'm. What I'm trying to get to is like a place with men where, you know, we say I'm really afraid, let's go.
Speaker 1:Yeah, And I'm talking about stepping off a cliff, but it's just as scary sitting in your car waiting to walk into a waiting room for your first meeting with a counselor It's just as scary.
Speaker 2:Or or talking about your feelings with a person that you don't know, or just another man.
Speaker 2:We used to that. Most men get get kind of raised to talk mostly about their emotions with women. Yeah, but we do it minimally. We do it because women often push and, push and push and then sometimes we'll say a little something. Often it'll come out just as anger, but you know, so men don't really form a language for it. We don't know how to identify what we're feeling, where we feel it in our body, where it came from. So a lot of times you'll hear you know I'm, you know I'm frustrated. Just leave me alone. It's like that's true And there's something deeper, there's something else going on, something that you can explore, and this is the access point to really understanding yourself and not being ruled by your emotions.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I have had many male clients over the years. Counseling clients tell me that they would rather have a female counselor And and I have often tried to refer men to male therapists and have had trouble convincing them to go which is a perfect segue to where I want to go next.
Speaker 1:So if you want to, you, you have a heart for this population. You understand them like crazy. You know. You get them in a way that I don't, probably, and if you can get them in the door, there's so much you can do with them. But you've got to overcome that resistance right off the bat. You've got to get them to take the first step off the cliff, right. So, as a business owner, as a practice manager or practice owner, how, how are you doing that? How, how have you? has that been hard to grow? a practice convincing the men to come see you, because they'd rather come see me, and I know that. Like, how are you handling that?
Speaker 2:Well with teenagers. Oftentimes moms are the ones that make the decision about who they want their sons to go to. And a lot of moms want their sons to go to a male counselor because they the boy doesn't have a great relationship with his father Right, good example. So that's that's pretty common for other men. You know, my website looks kind of like active and fun And and I I would say, yeah, it kind of strikes that balance between strength and vulnerability And and that's what I try to embody from the moment that I meet a new man, like I, i know that if I meet a man and he thinks that I am feeble or weak or he thinks that I'm too sensitive, there are some derogatory words that I won't say that that men call each other at young ages, yeah, that if I, if they believe that about me in a meeting at first you lose them.
Speaker 2:I lose them because they're like, nope, not like that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's basically kind of the idea, like if, if there is a way for me to be more emotional, it cannot be like that, right? So so it's that strength, you know, i, i, i am confident, i, professional, i, i, i, i, i speak with conviction about what I'm talking about, and then I will express early on some emotions that I have and I'll do it in a way that probably they haven't seen before, or if they have, it's not been very often. So I'll, i'll basically share my vulnerability with them And I'll talk about it. I'll say Hey, so this is kind of a way that I've come to understand that I can work through my stuff in a healthy way. That's also strong, and when they see it oftentimes I can I just like it's like a half half kind of cocked eye And they're like, okay, they're like I could. I could see myself doing it if I could do it like that, because what men basically think is like they're either strong and tough or they're in a puddle yeah, in a puddle around crying Right, And that's not.
Speaker 2:There are many other ways to be emotional, And and there are times to be purely emotional, for sure, But most of the time in our lives, you know, like we don't have to go all the way to, I am, you know, devastated. We can just be really sad and shed some tears and talk about our feelings, about that, and and let that be enough, And that's a great way to move through things And that's the kind of the. In that way, you don't carry the baggage of that emotion with you forward.
Speaker 1:Right, right, right, do you? do you have? so you have a group. you started a group practice somewhere along the way and began to develop that Yeah you must be.
Speaker 2:Yeah, i did, and so the the one thing that I think for like. So I I agree with you about going into private practice right out of grad school, and oftentimes the model for that is but, you know, because you can be a master's level counselor and you can even put a profile on psychology today as a master's level counselor. The difference between that and being a licensed counselor is that you cannot build to insurance And you still have to have supervision. So the counselors that came to my program and talked were they had a supervisor that they paid, you know, to meet with whatever once a week or once every two weeks, and and then they had their own offices.
Speaker 2:My difficulty with that is, i think, that right out of grad school and for the next couple of years, i really there are a lot of qualms that I have with how counselors are being educated and kind of how academic it is, versus all of the other things that I think should be included. But the one thing that I really support about this field is the length of supervision. Yeah, young counselors need to be supervised And and and I I really did not have great supervisors, so the biggest kind of thing when I started to grow my practice was I want to offer a place where counselors in training so postgraduate, pre-licensure counselors can come and get high quality supervision as they, and in two ways one is in the way clinically, and then the other is in running their own private practice. I love it Okay.
Speaker 1:So from the very beginning, you are training Therapist to be good clinicians and also good business people.
Speaker 2:I love that which, which go hand-in-hand But, and so that? so that's where and and how that started happening for me was I just had some counselors from the community Approach me, say, hey, i heard about you from somebody else and they said that you might Be a cool counselor to talk to and maybe you would be my supervisor, and so I don't know. I looked into it and I was like, well, i could do this and, and so I took on one, and then a second and then a third, in your practice working with you like not Just coming to you correct, and so I didn't like the model of They were out there and I was just talking to them once a week, mm-hmm.
Speaker 2:mostly because, you know, i feel like that's a really loose association and I, i really want this person to feel, you know, as a new counselor myself. There were times, especially about crises and urgent situations Yeah, yeah, i felt like I really, i really wanted my supervisor There.
Speaker 1:I wanted to ask a question, yeah you want him down the hall So you can run to him.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and, and I wanted to have a good enough relationship with them where I felt safe, running to them, where they Wouldn't be like come on, man, didn't you go to school? You should know this stuff right, i just could. I just don't think that a supervisor should ever say something like that. But so, so yeah, a really safe relationship with the supervisor, who won't enable me to not feel like I'm growing, but who will be available when I need them, and that's kind of what I wanted to be. And then, as I kind of, you know, did that for a little while, i started to think about the traditional practice, which is, you know, all licensed counselors and then I'm the business owner and then Whatever. But when I explored that side of it, it didn't seem like that model really offered much to the others in the practice other than referrals.
Speaker 2:Hmm and and and I think you mentioned when we talked about this before it also offers kind of the business structure So that the clinicians that work there can just kind of see your people be clinicians and leave.
Speaker 1:Yeah and there are people that that's all they want, which is fine. Which?
Speaker 2:is, and you see, fine, and I'm like I. I just don't know I.
Speaker 1:It's fine.
Speaker 2:Yeah, i. I think that it's fine for a time, and there's a point in it anybody's life where if you're working for somebody and they're taking a percentage of your income because You know they're doing up, they're providing a business service for you And you realize the amount of time that it takes to do that, and that you can do that yourself and then take 100% of your income. Mm-hmm, i just don't know. I just think that that seems like the right choice for anybody. And so then what am I thinking like? this person isn't capable of this. If it was a Monumental amount of work, if it was a lot of extra hours, if it was super difficult to do, maybe I would say, yeah, that makes sense, but I just don't think so in this business.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so where where? the reason I said that's fine is that not everybody is Wired in the way to want to be an entrepreneur. Not everybody wants to run a business, and Which took like I didn't understand that. I also didn't understand that not everybody wanted to work with kids, but they don't.
Speaker 2:Yeah, most people don't want to work with kids.
Speaker 1:That was a real shock to me with the point I found that out. But Not everybody wants to run a business. There are people who really do, just want to see clients and go home and they don't really care about the rest of it. But what's different about you and I think about me too is that you you're going to attract Clinicians who want to, who eventually want to do their own thing. I'm guessing so, or?
Speaker 2:is that, yeah, i only want clinicians. Oh, that's what you want I. I kind of want them right out of school For the duration of their postgraduate training under my supervision and then, once they get licensed, i took them out the door and say, hey, you got all the skills that you need. You're ready to go? and?
Speaker 1:do you? really? is that what happens when they're, when they're, when they get their license? You have them go on and go do their own thing, really.
Speaker 2:I did not know that, yeah, this.
Speaker 1:So this is fascinating because I interviewed someone else who had a group practice That was saying very, very different framework, very different approach, not right or wrong. They're all interesting, they're all just different ways of doing things, but in in that person's.
Speaker 1:In her case, she was saying people who want to run their own thing, who want to do their own thing, aren't a good fit because they weren't in her Particular business model. She had the system, she had the business and she just really wanted people to come and do the clinical work and it was. I love that. She was super clear about that, because she who to attract and I Am totally the end there again. I want to be really clear that I they're both of these have pros and cons to them. I Myself Always wanted to support people running a business, so, like from the very beginning I was bringing people on my in my own group practice that I was treating them like it was their business. I I there are things that do differently. If I had to do over again, but I love that you intentionally Have been have been raising therapists, have been raising clinicians, but you're also raising practice owners. That's super cool, sean, but that also means you have a certain amount of turnover.
Speaker 2:Yeah, i do, and that's part of it and it's okay, like I'm, we're working that out, we're still working it out, but I think that it's even with that it's going really well and And I think it really kind of lies strongly on top of an idea of Empowerment. Yeah, i, i want everybody to know. I mean I expressed doubts myself about going into private practice and and And oh and then running a group practice. At some point I had those doubts.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:I feared it and I eventually kind of found myself in a space where I had enough skills In other areas to really take that on. And and now, obviously, like it seems, it almost seems like I was always going to do, it.
Speaker 2:That's how it seems things do seem that way in retrospect, but it was not that way, and now that's kind of what I I feel like I'm doing with clients And I and I'm doing with with supervisees as well is like, hey, i'm not, i don't want to try to fast forward you to any particular place, but what I want you to know from the very beginning is you're fully capable of doing all of the things that go along with this, and you should not give me a percentage of your money forever.
Speaker 1:Wow, you are perfectly capable of doing this and you should not give me a percentage of your money forever.
Speaker 1:You can ever this you can do this too. Yeah, give it to me now while you're learning and you're training. Yeah, but you can do this. So you're all about empowerment from your, for your people, from the start, which, rick, which is a good that. That's a great place for me to mention Something that you said to me when we were on a call a few weeks ago Yeah, talking about How important it is to understand the business side of your practice, and and I I can't remember the context I think I was talking about One of my pet not pet peeves, that's too strong a word one of my.
Speaker 1:Something I care deeply about is that so many therapists Um, certainly in the social worker world where I am that so minimize the contributions that they make and the value that they bring To the table. And we are so conflicted about making money out of all this. And you said that you felt like our industry, that mental health in general, creates power through victimization. And you just said that off the cuff. You know, i feel like our industry creates power through victimization and I was like that got my attention. So I'd love to hear what's behind that, why you said that and how you're making sure that your Clinicians, your interns, your young therapists Aren't learning that way. I'd love to hear what you're doing with that. I That's a lot. Is that too much?
Speaker 2:to ask No, i got it Well, and the two things are a little bit separate. So the kind of running your business, doing your own scheduling, doing your own billing, submitting your articles of organization and creating your own LLC these things seem kind of daunting at some point And then after a few months they're not Exactly.
Speaker 2:Whatever, and part something that I said to you when we spoke was you know, they're part of the therapy process. Yeah, you know, if clients aren't paying their bills and somebody else is going after them for it, that that is part of their relationship with me, that I have no kind of over, and so I like to have those personal conversations and to you know, and this is a great place to exhibit both compassion like Hey, i understand that your financial situation is tough right now, so let's talk about and then the strength, which is like Hey, i'm a professional and this is what I do and I need to get paid for it. So what do we need to do? Do we need to do, we need to do a payment plan? How can we figure this out together? Yes, and even just modeling that for a client, and then they see, wow, that person is not just thinking about themselves, they're thinking about me too, but they're also thinking about themselves which is so important, so important.
Speaker 2:Yeah And yeah it is, and it's a hard thing to do because people get go like of course, like with everything, to the polls and they either only think about themselves mostly or they only think about other people mostly, and it's it's like no, no hold on. All of the people are important, so I want to highlight something that you just said.
Speaker 1:You said that when I'm in a situation where someone else is collecting the money or someone else is going whether it's a billing service or I'm working for an agency and someone else I don't I never deal with that whatever. I'm not the one that has that conversation with my clients. It's removed from me. That has its own. There's a there's a whole sort of problem to that And that when you are the one that's handling the money and you have to have the conversation with your clients directly about payment when it's tricky, when it's when it's often someone, when there's a problem, that you have the option, you have the opportunity there to model to model the same thing we're talking about with guys strength and vulnerability, strength and humanity at the same time.
Speaker 2:Absolutely Yeah, and it's that is like just as much as anything else that you can do in the therapy session.
Speaker 1:It is. It's so good, it's therapeutic.
Speaker 2:It is therapeutic. It's therapeutic, and, and and I'll say this like, even if you're not doing your own billing, you can still have these conversations.
Speaker 1:Yes, you can, yes, you can.
Speaker 2:Talk to your billing person, learn what's going on, but then bring it up with your client. Just just don't shirt that responsibility altogether, because your client will feel that And that's it's a kind of a disconnect that exists that maybe shouldn't.
Speaker 1:Y'all. If you have ever heard me speak those of you who've been following me for a while you know I preach this all the time that when you avoid the money conversation now this is, i don't want to go too far off of this tangent, but I do think this is important And this is part of what I wanted to talk with you about today, sean. I always say that when you avoid the money conversation with your clients because you're uncomfortable, i guarantee you they're thinking about it whether you talk about it or not. So at that point you are making your discomfort their discomfort, and at that point it is a therapeutic issue. It becomes the elephant in the room.
Speaker 2:Well, and yeah, and compare it to the three core conditions of being a counselor Are you being congruent? I don't think so And it's, and it just like, don't get me wrong, it is so hard. At the very beginning of being a counselor I was like I would bring it up because I knew I needed to, but I would try to almost wiggle out of it. I'd be like, look, if you can't pay, it's okay, i'll just. You know, like that I would. I would kind of like back down and not represent myself strongly After walking out the door. And now it's more like you know, i slow myself down, i take deep breaths and it's still a hard conversation. But I have to keep in mind that whole time that I am important to and that if I don't treat myself as important, they won't either Right, and then modeling self-respect And then how good are the services that I'm providing anyway?
Speaker 1:Right, right, i love it. This is really awesome And what an interesting place to come. So there's been sort of a theme all the way through this conversation about strength and vulnerability, and which is very kind of cool in a way, and how that weaves through, how that has been a theme for you as an evolve, as a, as a professional, in your course that you have that you've been through, and how it's been a theme for your clients. It's a theme, i think, with your supervisees, and now we're theme with men.
Speaker 1:With men, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Strength and vulnerability. How to own both, enjoy both, leverage both, encompass both and be the most complete person you can be, so that you, so that you don't stay stuck and you move forward. Two things I want to ask you What? well, first of all, where can people find you if they want to meet you, learn more about you? Where would you want people to go?
Speaker 2:So you can go to my website. It's either menmadementorscom or SeanHelveycom, okay, good. And then also you can listen to my podcast. It's on, i think, all of the major podcast places. It's called the Manmade Podcast. My name is Sean Helvey, and then Adam Thorne, an old friend of mine, does it with me.
Speaker 1:I love that. And you said that your podcast is about like bite-sized bits of personal growth and development that men can kind of digest and do, stuff that can take with them right.
Speaker 2:Perfect, And I think what I'm really trying to do that's hopefully a little bit different than what others are doing is I really am trying to make like accessible practices. So I'll talk about kind of the ecosystem right, The thoughts and the feelings that contribute to behaviors. And then I'm like Hey, how can you develop these into things that you choose rather than things that your past chose for you? And then I really get granular with like the little practices, the little ways of kind of looking at it that can help advance that process.
Speaker 1:Good stuff, good stuff. Well, we will link to that, for sure in the show notes as well. Thank you so much for hanging out with me today and having you know this. I think every time I meet you, i think we could probably talk for a few hours. That's like the feeling always.
Speaker 2:Maybe the next time we should plan a few hours. I just think that you're the best, Wendy. Thanks so much. You are awesome.
Speaker 1:My mama will love you for saying that We have to get together and tell wilderness stories. That's what we have to do next. So is there anything else that you would like to say that you feel like would make this interview and this conversation complete?
Speaker 2:Okay For yourself as a clinician, for your clients, for the people in your life. If there is something that it feels like it is impossible or that is inaccessible, it's good to feel that way. It's important. There are a lot of reasons to believe that and just be open to the possibility that at some point in the future it won't feel like that And open up to it when you're ready.
Speaker 2:Because the things that I have in my life now, where I am with my business and in my career, are not things that I put on a vision board And I'm not laughing at those. I think they're awesome. But even when people make vision boards, they don't believe what's on there. They're like that probably won't happen And it's okay to think that And then think and maybe we'll see, maybe something will open up, and that's the mystery of life. It's so beautiful that you get to these points and suddenly something that felt impossible is right there in front of you, inaccessible, and you can do it and just know that that keeps happening and just be ready for it and open to it when it happens.
Speaker 1:That's beautiful. That's a perfect place to bring this to a close. I love it. I love it. That's a perfect. I'm immediately thinking about the whole metaphor of stepping over the cliff, the things that you think you can't do. All you have to do is take one step and then test the rope, and then take one more step and test the rope And before you know it, you are zooming in a way that you didn't even know was possible And having, and you're flying high and you're having a really good time And woo-hooing, and woo-hooing. There you go. Thank you, sean. This has really been fun. I'm so, so appreciate your being here today And I look forward to lots more of these kinds of conversations. Thank you, me too. My pleasure, right back at you.
