This episode of What the Floor focused on PVC Free flooring. What it is and what it isn’t. We talked about why this category is important and how it is going to impact the flooring industry in the future. We also discussed how flooring with PVC impacts our environment and why it’s going to change. We talked specifically about Linoleum flooring from Tarkett, ORCA laminate from KronoFlooring, and Sono Eclipse, Elandura and Moto from InHaus.
Our Walk the Plank segment focused on Luxury Vinyl naming conventions and how ridiculous they are (LV, LVP, LVT, LVS, LT and who knows what else).
Links
Tarkett Linoleum Product Information
Sono Eclipse & Elandura Product Information
What the Floor is a T&A Supply Company Inc original production. You can find out more about us at tasupply.com or tasflooring.com. This show is produced by Jose Morales with help from Toni Collier and Jessica Riser. Tell us what you think of the show at wtfpodcast@tasupply.com or #whatthefloorpodcast on social media to let us know what you think.
This episode of What the Floor focused on PVC Free flooring. What it is and what it isn’t. We talked about why this category is important and how it is going to impact the flooring industry in the future. We also discussed how flooring with PVC impacts our environment and why it’s going to change. We talked specifically about Linoleum flooring from Tarkett, ORCA laminate from KronoFlooring, and Sono Eclipse, Elandura and Moto from InHaus.
Our Walk the Plank segment focused on Luxury Vinyl naming conventions and how ridiculous they are (LV, LVP, LVT, LVS, LT and who knows what else).
Links
Tarkett Linoleum Product Information
Sono Eclipse & Elandura Product Information
What the Floor is a T&A Supply Company Inc original production. You can find out more about us at tasupply.com or tasflooring.com. This show is produced by Jose Morales with help from Toni Collier and Jessica Riser. Tell us what you think of the show at wtfpodcast@tasupply.com or #whatthefloorpodcast on social media to let us know what you think.
This is what the floor from T&A Supply Company Inc, a podcast for the flooring industry. I'm Holiday Van Erem.
Michael Goria:And I'm Michael Goria. We're going to explore the hot topics of the flooring industry with a little humor and a new set of eyes.
Holiday Van Erem:Alright, hi, Michael.
Michael Goria:Hello Holliday, it's good to see you.
Holiday Van Erem:We're in our podcasting studios,
Michael Goria:that's right,
Holiday Van Erem:Which is not fancy by any means. But we're making it work.
Michael Goria:We will.
Holiday Van Erem:So we're doing our first episode of our podcast.
Michael Goria:Yes, crazy I'm excited.
Holiday Van Erem:It's very exciting. And I feel a little nervous about letting other people listen to this after the fact.
Michael Goria:For sure. It's gonna be good, though. Hey, gotta learn.
Holiday Van Erem:Exactly. So I think our podcast is going to be very important to our customers, important to other folks in the flooring industry. I hope that we have an opportunity to explore some topics that maybe don't get a lot of recognition or time to be discussed.
Michael Goria:Yeah. I think there's a lot of topics that just don't get talked about right? People have questions all the time, they're afraid to ask them or they just they just go on without really ever even learning about that because no one talks about them. So I think there's a great opportunity to do that for people.
Holiday Van Erem:Very true. So today we're going to talk about PVC free flooring,
Michael Goria:the exciting world of PVC free flooring.
Holiday Van Erem:It is it's very exciting, but to what you just said people are little little confused about it,
Michael Goria:Yeah I know
Holiday Van Erem:For sure.
Michael Goria:Yep.
Holiday Van Erem:Don't really understand what it is or why it's important
Michael Goria:or worried that it's just another kind of title or greenwashing name. You know, I think there's a lot of negative feedback with the sometimes the green story.
Holiday Van Erem:Yeah, and I feel like we've been bringing out products that are PVC free for several years now and they don't always work right or they're way too expensive. Yes. So hopefully we can maybe dispel some rumors or myths about PVC flooring as we go through this. Absolutely. Yeah, so let's dive right in. My first question what is PVC flooring and what is PVC free flooring? What? What is PVC? Why does it matter? What is it? And lucky for you? I? I did a little Google search
Michael Goria:Well good for you.
Holiday Van Erem:Yeah
Michael Goria:I'm interested to hear
Holiday Van Erem:flooring that does not contain PVC or polyvinyl chloride, which is what PVC stands for.
Michael Goria:Right
Holiday Van Erem:It is a tough chemically resistant synthetic resin.
Michael Goria:Yeah, I've also heard it referred to as a dirty plastic.
Holiday Van Erem:A dirty plastic. Well, that's great. We've got a lot of pretty dirty plastic.
Michael Goria:Yes, yes, we do.
Holiday Van Erem:A lot of flooring is made with PVC. Yeah. And it's I feel like it's never really been a problem. So let's talk more about what PVC is.
Michael Goria:Yeah, you know I've been thinking a lot about this and as I've done research I mean PVC is just an everything I think one of the most common products we think about because it's in the name is PVC piping you go to Home Depot. It's you know, it's used in so many different ways in different things but pvc piping is most popular but you know children's toys, containers you touch PVC every day.
Holiday Van Erem:Yeah, uh huh the table we're standing sitting in front of is sure got lots of PVC in it, but it is extremely reliable.
Michael Goria:Yeah.
Holiday Van Erem:And it's been fairly cheap in the past and we've just been able to incorporate it into so many different types of products. Like he said, It's in probably a little bit of everything that you touch all day long.
Michael Goria:It is I guess you know this isn't so much a PVC is bad podcast as why would we want products that are PVC free, you know, and trying to hit on that what makes these important
Holiday Van Erem:PVC content is in a lot of the products that we sell. Yeah. They've been extremely popular for what do you think how many years now is PVC flooring? been probably one of the most talked about types of floors?
Michael Goria:I would think for at least less 10 years if not much longer than that.
Holiday Van Erem:Yeah, we started out with the glue down luxury vinyls. And then they wouldn't click there were a lot of problems with it trying to figure out how to make them click together and not back up.
Michael Goria:And I think also just the recipe they were made from right they couldn't get it right. Took a while
Holiday Van Erem:Uh huh Yes. And then we went into WPC added a whole bunch of other items wood polymer core and limestone and all sorts of other things SPC that was next
Michael Goria:stone Palmer course so you got I mean a lot of people were putting Clay You know and fillers in there. They're brittle.
Holiday Van Erem:Messing with the recipe. You're changing it up
Michael Goria:Exactly.
Holiday Van Erem:And now we're to a point where we're starting to take back out that PVC, and continue to mess with that technology in that recipe.
Michael Goria:Yeah. So and that's why we're here today to talk about, you know, how do we remove that? Does it? You know, does it affect the product? And where do we go from there?
Holiday Van Erem:So, one of my other questions is, what is the need? That's being addressed? Why is taking the PVC out necessary? You mentioned, it's called a dirty plastic.
Michael Goria:Yeah. So I think one of the big things I read about was off gassing, you know, PVC products off gas up to 18 months. I mean, that was just something that kind of blew me away, you know, thinking about, you know, the children in our homes, our pets, and we live on these floors. So to have a product off gassing for that long can affect our health.
Holiday Van Erem:Exactly. One of the things that I've been thinking about recently, it was a lot with all the price increases is how much PVC, the price of it has gone up over the last few years. Yeah. And since it's contains some of the same things that are in oil and gas, that price is going to continue to go up with the current issues over in Europe.
Michael Goria:Absolutely. I mean, that's going to continue to be affected. I think we've already seen it start.
Holiday Van Erem:Yeah. So one thing that I feel like happens when we are building new types of products is the technology continues to change. So I feel like sometimes we're not even necessarily solving a need, but we're just finding better ways to make things with technology. And that's something that I've seen with some of the research that I did on the products that we are selling and some of our sister company is selling and that we have seen out in the market is just trying to find a better way to build a floor.
Michael Goria:And I think people are, you know, can be resistant to it at first because it is different, right? We're comfortable selling what we're having success with.
Holiday Van Erem:Don't change that.
Michael Goria:but as these new products come in, we have to take a hard look, especially from a product management standpoint of you know, why would we bring it on and then we have what benefit what what does it you know, what need does it
Holiday Van Erem:Is it improving what we already have? meet?
Michael Goria:Right
Holiday Van Erem:All right, well, I think that it's time for us to dive a little bit deeper. So we've got a handful of products that we want to talk about some that we will name by name because we would like you to know about them because we're selling them
Michael Goria:Correct.
Holiday Van Erem:And some other things that we'll mention in addition to those.
Michael Goria:All right Holiday, as we look at what kind of products are PVC free. linoleum is one of the oldest products that's always been recognized as PVC free. Why is that?
Holiday Van Erem:Well, PVC free linoleum is always been a thing because linoleum is completely naturally made. We just brought onto our cat as a distributor at TNA Supply Company and one of the products that I was very excited about bringing on was having access to linoleum, so it's been around forever. 120 years Tarkett's been making linoleum flooring. linoleum is made from entirely natural materials like linseed oil, that's where it gets its name from, I guess they've been making it for over 120 years. And they've never once considered putting PVC in it. So it's always worked just fine. But linoleum has superior resistance to abrasions, stains, and chemicals, chemical staining. It's built to withstand heavy traffic and heavy rolling loads and 96% rapidly renewable materials. Wow. So even 120 years ago, they were able to put together a product that was stands pretty much anything and everything doesn't have to be recoated a whole bunch keeps the stains off of it. And that's also carbon negative. We listened to a training with Tarkett the other day, and that was one of their their most carbon friendly items is they're actually negative because of how natural the product is. So that's pretty incredible.
Michael Goria:Yeah. So another product that we're really excited about because we're just about to launch it with T&A is Orca.
Holiday Van Erem:Yes. From kronospan
Michael Goria:Yes, from kronospan. So orca stands for organic, rigid core board antistatic.
Holiday Van Erem:super sexy name.
Michael Goria:It really is. But that doesn't say that it's PVC free.
Holiday Van Erem:No, it doesn't. But it's starts with organic.
Michael Goria:Yeah.
Holiday Van Erem:And I think that that's the one thing that you really have to stop and explain. We've done a lot of presentations on orca
Michael Goria:yes we have
Holiday Van Erem:over the last few months. And I feel like we start to explain the organic story. And the customer's eyes kind of glaze over and they're they're thinking I don't understand why you're telling me all of this.
Michael Goria:Yes.
Holiday Van Erem:But it's important
Michael Goria:it is it is
Holiday Van Erem:And I'm I'm not sure that we are doing it justice when we do the explanation. So orca being organic. The only content in this product is wood. fiber has been mechanically processed multiple times to make it super small. So really small wood fibers, then the other. So that's 90% of the product.
Michael Goria:Right.
Holiday Van Erem:The other 10% is special, we're not going to tell you exactly what they are because they're super secret sauce,
Michael Goria:Sure
Holiday Van Erem:Organic binding agents. So it's, again, organic binding agents instead of chemical binding agents that aren't organic. And that goes around surrounds all of those really tiny, tiny fibers. So that's really great. And that makes it organic. But the fact that it's made out of these really tiny wood fibers and has that organic writing agent, makes it extremely low swell, Right So apparently, because the wood fibers are so tiny, the water just can't get in there to soak in and let the product swell,
Michael Goria:right, it just won't penetrate it the same way, you know, so you won't have you know, the laminates of old that a dog bowl will would spill and 30 minutes later, you'd have the you know, bubbling and puckering of the of the actual core material, you just won't have that this is the only quote unquote laminate product that we're actually calling waterproof.
Holiday Van Erem:You can put this in bathrooms, you can put it in the kitchen doesn't matter, you're not going to have problems. Now, I'm not going to tell you that you're not going to ever have any kind of water issue if you've got the dishwasher that floods, and then you don't catch it for numerous days because you're out of town. But that's not going to be your only problem.
Michael Goria:No, you're gonna have many more issues. That's an insurance claim. At that point. I think, you know, maybe someday we do a podcast on what is water resistant, waterproof. And how do
Holiday Van Erem:we get what's the insurance claim and what's not? Yeah, this waterproof story
Michael Goria:in the industry has gotten carried away, I think from a lot of levels. So well, that's a topic for another day.
Holiday Van Erem:So the other thing about Orca, because of the organic wood fibers and the organic binding agents is it's not affected by temperature, right the same way that PVC plastic material, resins and softeners are affected by heat, heat and plastic. Those things don't mix.
Michael Goria:No they don't
Holiday Van Erem:As a child, I had a plastic T set, and I left it very close to the heater was never the same.
Michael Goria:You're drinking out of something different.
Holiday Van Erem:Exactly. It's never the same. But that's what happens. So if you have a product that you expect to put next to a sliding glass door and have no curtains, no, you know blotches, anything and you've got a lot of sun coming in the floors gonna get hot no matterwhat
Michael Goria:it is. It's a magnifier, those those sliding glass doors really act as a magnifier. And so we've we've done tests at homes where you're reading with, you know, with a heat gun, you're reading 150 degrees or more, and it's 70 degrees outside. So it's just that sun beating through that that slider, you know, amplifies the heat that much more. And then that's where you get your issues from
Holiday Van Erem:Exactly, which is why me and the cat are always leaning against the sliding glass door. Nice and toasty
Michael Goria:For sure
Holiday Van Erem:Nice and toasty but orca will be perfect for homes with and we have a lot of these in the Pacific Northwest because we love our our view of the mountain and the trees and having that sunshine come in Florida ceiling windows sliding glass doors. Orca is a product that's not going to have problems with the temperature.
Michael Goria:Yeah, absolutely. And the other cool thing about it is it's an anti fade product. So it's not going to fade, like a lot of our products do or oxidize that same way. So if you put a an area rug down, it won't, you know the material that's that's exposed won't oxidize, like the material under the rug, that's not getting that oxidation. So an anti fade product, that's cool. We don't have a lot of products that have anti fade in them.
Holiday Van Erem:That's another great benefit. And I'll we'll tie this back to the organic carbon neutral story. Because there's no PVC vinyl content in there. Orca is carbon neutral. And that is because the production process of transforming a tree into orca emmits less carbon than the tree itself had stored.
Michael Goria:Right.
Holiday Van Erem:So kronospan only uses wood from sustainably managed forests in addition to that, enabling this product to be climate friendly.
Michael Goria:Yeah. And what I love about this is, you know, this is a product that's like we said 90% Wood based and its core and so PVC doesn't mean you're using, you know, polypropylene or there's many different items that can make up a PVC free floor.
Holiday Van Erem:And this is one of them. So this is we've got the linoleum with linseed oil, we've got orca with the wood fibers. And now let's talk about a Um, some of those other options.
Michael Goria:We've got a couple brought to us by in house. We're excited to have these. So we've got moto on the T&A side and then Sono And Elandura, on our sister company side.
Holiday Van Erem:Yeah, very exciting products. But they're this Sono Eclipse and Elandura are made a little differently than the Moto product. Why don't you tell us a little bit more about what makes Sono Eclipse and Elandura PVC free?
Michael Goria:So yes, Sono Eclipse and Elandura are both made using polypropylene. So polypropylene is what baby bottles are made out of. So it's a very safe product. It doesn't off gas the same way that PVC does. So it's also very dimensionally stable, as we've been talking about with some of the other PVC free products.
Holiday Van Erem:Yeah, you pop a baby bottle into the microwave.
Michael Goria:Yeah.
Holiday Van Erem:Not gonna be a melted mess afterwards.
Michael Goria:No, it's not. Yeah. So that's where we get back to the stability, right? You can go to, I think negative 40 to 150 is what they advertise.
Holiday Van Erem:Which is important in our territory. We've got Alaska up in Montana. We're in Montana. Not too long ago. It was pretty cold. Yes, it is. And you've got a lot of cabins out there that don't have any heat on.
Michael Goria:Yeah. And they're they're approving it for those three season cabins. So they're gonna turn off the heat and walk away. And there's places where, you know, it's insulated, but you're still getting down, you know, when it's negative 30, negative 50. Outside, and it's cold inside.
Holiday Van Erem:Yeah, well, we were having this conversation with a customer yesterday, the difference between laminate flooring and SPC luxury vinyl flooring, going from wood to plastic, plastic, when it's cold is very brittle.
Michael Goria:Right
Holiday Van Erem:Plastic, when it's hot, is very melty.
Michael Goria:Melty
Holiday Van Erem:So to have a product that is made of polypropylene that kind of doesn't do either one of those things that you expect the plastic to do, right? That's super helpful for a floor it is.
Michael Goria:And one of the things I was most impressed by with this product is in the next couple months, they will start printing a recycled five label on the back of this product.
Holiday Van Erem:I love this.
Michael Goria:Yeah. Which means you can actually unclick your floor, you know, 5, 10, 20 years from now, to take it to your local recycle center instead of taking it to landfill. I mean, that's impressive
Holiday Van Erem:we've never we've never had a product that you could do that with no, I mean, there's carpet recycling programs in you know, different recycling programs. But the one thing that I have been concerned about for numerous years, since the time that we started selling luxury vinyl,
Michael Goria:yeah.
Holiday Van Erem:was what is going to happen. When we start pulling all of this out and putting in more and more plastic flooring all over the place. It's just going to dump.
Michael Goria:Yeah.
Holiday Van Erem:And that to me. I'm not overly, like overly concerned about the environment, but I am concerned to a very certain amount. That is, it's bothered me for years. Yeah, what do we have, we've got to figure out how to fix this problem I love the in house is to the point where there technology, you can pull the board up, it's marked as to what type of recycling it can be done. And you can take it to your recycling center.
Michael Goria:No, I thin it's potentially a game changer, right? For the future. We have a lot of you know, millennials coming into buying homes, now they're doing their research, they're looking more into what makes up these floors. I'm a wood guy, I was kind of born and raised into the wood industry, even factory finished wood, you know, you put that in the landfill, it's going to be there for a very long time. And then you've got the issue with, you know, some of the aluminum oxide, obviously, you know, decomposing and leaching into the ground. I mean, that's not, that's not a great scenario. So to have a product that we can actually recycle from day one is huge. The other thing I was so impressed this is another great story is the off gassing. We've been talking a lot about off gassing. And they did it they do testing so they put their material in a chamber. And they had it third party tested. And after three days, the testing facility stopped the testing because they thought their equipment was broke. Yeah, because they were getting no readings there was no there was no off gas, zero. So then they restarted it. And in fact, that was right. There was actually no off gassing from this product. So that's how clean it is. Compared to some of the other products that we do have
Holiday Van Erem:That's amazing. I think about a horse so health conscious at this point in time we've been dealing with Coronavirus for several years now we've got people that are living with cancer and living with all sorts of other health concerns. Lots of people, their allergies and asthma are worse than they've ever been sort of feel safe in your home that you can pick paint and flooring and all sorts of other products to go in your home that are not going to be harming you in any kind of way. that's amazing.
Michael Goria:No,it is. And, you know, we've, as we did the research here, you know, talking about phthalates, it's phthalates, it's had been removed from most flooring now, but they're a carcinogen. I mean, they were causing issues with people. And we're spending more and more times in our homes. A lot of people are working from home more and more. But they're again, they're looking into products that they're confident and comfortable with. I think some of these PVC product products are a great option for that.
Holiday Van Erem:Yeah, for sure. Especially when they're no longer costing so much more than the other types of products in the category.
Michael Goria:Yeah, I think you just hit the nail on the head costing was a big kind of deterrent, right? They just it was way more expensive. Usually$1 dollar 50 a square foot more expensive for for PVC free products. The other thing that that I was looking at is the colorations. were never very good. They they took out the PVC, but then they always lacked on the colorations. So they cost more and they didn't look very good. Well, I really think that's changing some of the products we've already talked about. I mean, they're great visuals, they have more plank options, less pattern repeats than some of our standard products.
Holiday Van Erem:Yeah, for sure. So another product that in house has is moto. Yep. Coming out from the T&A side, this products made in Japan instead of Germany. So just right off the bat, that's different. We don't have any other products coming out of Japan.
Michael Goria:We don't but I love that we're diversifying where we're pulling products from
Holiday Van Erem:And Moto is also polypropylene. So polypropylene mineral composite core is what they call it. Waterproof, dent proof, and minimizes telegraphing,
Michael Goria:yeah
Holiday Van Erem:Those are some pretty awesome things for especially the commercial side, absolute world. So Moto is engineered to meet the performance and safety requirements. In today's some of their most demanding commercial spaces. We're trying to get more and more out of our flooring. Every time we install it, we're asking it to do more and more.
Michael Goria:Yeah
Holiday Van Erem:And Moto is supposed to be able to handle pretty much all of it. And that's because it's made of polypropylene mineral composites,
Michael Goria:right
Holiday Van Erem:So it does not contain any phthalates, which we just mentioned, the plasticizers is another big thing that's part of PVC flooring, formaldehyde, heavy metals, none of that stuff are inside this product. Yeah, I've
Michael Goria:also read they're they're more stain resistant, right?
Holiday Van Erem:Yes, more stain resistant, fade proof. And Moto has an AC six wear layer.
Michael Goria:And that's incredible. I don't even think obviously in the US we go up to AC five that's considered a high commercial wear layer. But I think and and in Europe, they go up to AC seven or an AC eight. So but an AC six, that's well more than we're getting here in the US.
Holiday Van Erem:Exactly. And it seems more acceptable for PVC products, orca and moto to utilize laminate abrasion class ratings to explain their story than normal PVC flooring. We just don't use those ratings.
Michael Goria:No, you're right, we use, you know, a 12 mil or a 20 mil, which is really, you know, that's a thickness. Whereas an AC rating is an actual abrasion test. Right? So yeah,
Holiday Van Erem:Moto and the other in house products, so no clips and Allen dura there's just as dimensional stability story there that we haven't seen in a lot of other PVC flooring options.
Michael Goria:Oh, that's I mean, it's, it's fixing a problem. Because we you know, that's one of the things we see most in claims is stability issues. You talked about the south facing windows and glass sliders. You know, but stability in our market, whether you go from Alaska to Hawaii is really our range and the Pacific Northwest is kind of in between. That's a large range of what we're expecting our products to perform in.
Holiday Van Erem:Yes, so one other product I want to mention, it's not something that we're selling, but the only reason I want to mention it is because I was going through one of our weekly flooring. This one's floor covering weekly. And this is basically an ad for Unilin who's bringing out a product that happens to be PVC free, SPC flooring, but their whole ad is not necessarily about the PVC free aspect. It's about the dimensional stability that it creates by not having PVC in it. So they took the whole I mean it's it's buried, basically the lead is buried down in there in the story because they're talking all about the dimensional stability that this product has, because it happens to not be a PVC right or
Michael Goria:Okay
Holiday Van Erem:so just another example of why I think we need to change the story that we're telling when we're selling these products when we're explaining these products. The fact that it doesn't have PVC in it is not just about the green story,
Michael Goria:right
Holiday Van Erem:It's all about that stability.
Michael Goria:No absolutely. So let me ask you this. Do you think the do you think the PVC free category will continue to grow?
Holiday Van Erem:I do, I think it will, because we now finally have the right technology to make products that are actually going to work. Yeah. And look good, exactly look good, stand up better to what we're asking them to do. And the water resistance and the waterproof aspects, the just general stability of the products, the fade resistance, the stain resistance, all of those things are finally all wrapped up in that one package.
Michael Goria:Yeah, if you can get a product that has, you know, all those things tied in for even a few cents more 10 cents more. There's a lot of customers who will pay for that nowadays,
Holiday Van Erem:they will. And it's not even that much more than an upgrade option, you're still paying less. And I think there are more and more people out there who are starting to understand why it's necessary for us to change our buying habits.
Michael Goria:I agree. If that recyclability part becomes bigger, I mean, that could be, you know, even just the probably the largest game changer of this whole thing. If, if you can take up your floor and take it to the recycle center. that that's a big deal.
Holiday Van Erem:Yeah, I mean, I feel like that's a big deal to the installation crew who's coming in to put in your next floor? Yeah, they don't have the liability of having to pay the dump fees.
Michael Goria:I mean, they charge $1 dollar 50 a square foot to go dump stuff, sometimes, you know, and if you can take it to the recycle center, and away it goes to be recycled down. That's a that's a great opportunity for all of us.
Holiday Van Erem:Exactly. So I do want to talk more about why or why not?
Michael Goria:Ahh yes
Holiday Van Erem:Do you think that these you asked me if I think there's going to be more and more options? Do we think consumers are going to be asking for more and more of these types of products? Or do we think it's not as big of a deal, as it maybe seems like it is going to become
Michael Goria:I think you're gonna find that consumers are going to start asking for these products. They're doing more research, the younger generation is taking a deeper dive, they're so comfortable on their phones and on the internet. They're taking a deeper dive into what products they're putting in their entire house, not just you know, what they're eating. And so if we're more interested in organic, you know, we want to eat more organic that has not died that has continued to grow. I think the products that we put in our home, are also going to be a main factor. Yeah,
Holiday Van Erem:I think so. I feel like my child is way more concerned about the environment that I was, and I was way more concerned than my parents were right. And it's just going to continue to grow. And just the fact that this past year that I mean, the European Union has put in place goals to close the gap even further on climate change. All of those things are going to trickle down into different effects.
Michael Goria:Well, and just this week, I was reading Starbucks, I mean, in 2025, they will have they won't have cups anymore, you know, your standard paper Starbucks cup, they'll either lend you a cup, or you can bring your own. That's the initiative. You know, you've got Apple trying to be carbon neutral. You've got you've got Starbucks and all these companies that we're very familiar with are also making, you know, a play to be more carbon neutral to be more environmentally friendly.
Holiday Van Erem:Yeah, so Orca, and Son0 Eclipse Elandura are all made in Germany.
Michael Goria:Yep.
Holiday Van Erem:European union has a 55% goal of having fewer greenhouse gas emissions by 2030. How are they going to get there, in fact, the way the factories are built and the emissions that they're putting out, which also means they have to change the way that they're building their products and what they're building their products from? Yeah, which is exactly why they're moving to taking the PVC out of some of these products. Absolutely.
Michael Goria:And as we see the price increase of PVC continue to go up. That's going to play a factor in that as well right, these products won't be more expensive, they may be less expensive, especially when
Holiday Van Erem:they start using the recycled material that they previously made to make the flooring again, it's great point. It's got that that trickling down effect. It's all connected. Now it's time for walk the plank. The segment where we debate some ridiculous pet peeve that only flooring industry professionals would understand and can't decide on
Michael Goria:today's topic is LVP versus LV versus LT versus
Holiday Van Erem:LDS
Michael Goria:whatever else you want to say.
Holiday Van Erem:Thrown out a new one.
Michael Goria:All right. Do you have a favorite?
Holiday Van Erem:I hate them all
Michael Goria:okay
Holiday Van Erem:personally, it's confusing,
Michael Goria:very confusing.
Holiday Van Erem:So, I started in the flooring industry right before these products started really taking off. So I've been creating price lists and marketing sheets from the very beginning of these products and it for someone who has OCD problems already. It's very frustrating that no one can be consistent with their abreviations.
Michael Goria:Agreed 100%. I was talking to somebody and they use this great word nomenclature. What's funny is when you hear a word like that, then I heard it like five times in the next four days in a different context. So I love it. I had to look up how to spell it. Nomenclature is such a great word. But yeah, so you know, I asked a lot of industry people because Holiday, I had the same. I had the same experience. I came from a wood background. And I used to just fake it. I used to just throw out like, whichever one I felt like saying that day and then I'd kind of look at people and be like, do Did I say it?
Holiday Van Erem:Right?
Michael Goria:Because I didn't know which one I was supposed to be using.
Holiday Van Erem:I don't think anybody knows what they're supposed to be using it. So to me personally, LV. stands for luxury vinyl. Agreed. That's a that's a whole category of products. So I tend to correct people down to LV. What I really hate is when somebody says LVT, but it's a wood plank visual. Absolutely. That drives me insane. It is not a tile, which is what that stands for luxury vinyl tile, and understand that it's a loose piece of flooring. Maybe you could call that a tile I technically maybe
Michael Goria:In it's essesnce it's a tile. Right, right. But we have poly cell planks and we sell tiles. So use the right one, or vice versa. It'll get used as LVP. And they're talking about a stone tile visual, right. So I talked to one manufacturer who calls it LT. And I said what why do you why do you call it LT? And their response was, we just wanted to be different. Oh, that's great. That's the only reason it's called LT.
Holiday Van Erem:That is so rude. I also found that abbreviation and my assumption was that it didn't have vinyl in it. Right. And that's why they weren't calling it LVT. They're just calling it luxury tile because they didn't technically have vinyl in it.
Michael Goria:Sure.
Holiday Van Erem:But if they're just making it up, that's just rude,
Michael Goria:No they are well, it's a differentiator. The hard part is you can take it one step further and you go okay, now, in the LVP, or LVT category, you've got WPC and SPC and EVP and MGO and there's always and like we talked about today, PVC free
Holiday Van Erem:Exactly. Well, and you throw out MLF multi layer flooring, which technically should be a complete_ WPC, and SPC shouldn't be considered a luxury vinyl agreed. It should be in this new multi layer flooring category. Okay, I don't think many people even realize that's a flooring category.
Michael Goria:I agree. And then there's EVP which is engineered vinyl plank. And that's confusing when you put that that term engineered in there to me, I autumatically and again, being a wood guy automatically go to engineered flooring, engineered hardwood, I should say
Holiday Van Erem:Yeah, well, isn't everything that's not solid hardwood engineered? Yes, it is. It doesn't just come out of the ground like that. Right?
Michael Goria:It does not
Holiday Van Erem:no, it sure doesn't. So I even internally, we, when I'm doing sales reporting, and I'm looking up information, we've got product codes, grouping things together that are the EVE. And but this is these products, I wouldn't even classify them that way. They it's just it's a whole big mess. And as every new abbreviation comes out, somebody's like, Oh, I like that one better. I'm gonna start using that.
Michael Goria:Yeah. And when you're doing product training, it's brutal. You know, when these terms start flying around, people's eyes just start to glaze over. Like, I don't know what you're talking about. But it is it's that confusing. So as an industry, do we pick one or two? I think unfortunately, we're stuck with with all of them. But it would sure be nice to land on one or two.
Holiday Van Erem:It sure would be nice.
Michael Goria:The WTF podcast is going to establish the correct nomenclature.
Holiday Van Erem:Yes. We're gonna walk the talk. We're going to, we're going to make a decision and we're going to stick to it okay, and push everyone the same direction. We're going to forcibly interrupt their conversations and tell them that they're wrong.
Michael Goria:Yeah, we can be those annoying people that walk around it shows and correct people.
Holiday Van Erem:I already am. Done
Michael Goria:Too late,
Holiday Van Erem:Sign me up. I'm one of those people. But what is it so is it do we break this into luxury vinyl LV versus multilayer flooring?
Michael Goria:Unfortunately, I think I'd love to but I just think that's a challenge because I think SPC even WPC is going to be put in the LVP category as long as it's a plank visual,
Holiday Van Erem:Okay. right. right?
Michael Goria:So then any title visuals would be an LVT.
Holiday Van Erem:They should be and if you're being more generic, it just needs to be luxury vinyl.
Michael Goria:Agreed. So the overarching industry could be luxury vinyl for this category and within it, there's LVP and there's LVT.
Holiday Van Erem:Yes.
Michael Goria:Right.
Holiday Van Erem:That's acceptable.
Michael Goria:Okay. So does SPC fall under these?
Holiday Van Erem:I guess it depends if it's a plank or tile,
Michael Goria:okay
Holiday Van Erem:See we can't even decide amongst ourselves
Michael Goria:I think unfortunately folks The debate continues. We'd love any we'd love any feedback
Holiday Van Erem:what if anybody listening out in the world of listeners. Well, how do you feel? What is you know you can send us a message
Michael Goria:let us know one that you listened we love you for that
Holiday Van Erem:#WTF Alright, so if you've got a opinion about our walk the plank segment, feel free to reach out to us on the socials. Please ta_supply if you're on the Insta. That's what the kids call it, I call it Instagram and then I get dirty look on the Facebook where I'm usually at where the old people are. T&A supply company. #walktheplank#whatthefloor so we see them Yeah, that might find that all sorts of
Michael Goria:#WTF other things for sure. Good point.
Holiday Van Erem:What the floor is a T&A Supply Company Inc original production. You can find out more about us at tasupply.com or TASflooring.com.
Michael Goria:This show is produced by Jose Morales with help from Toni Collier and Jessica Riser. Hosted by Holiday Van Erem and Michael Goria.
Holiday Van Erem:WTF