Creating Space for Healing in the Juvenile Justice System

Talking with Sonya, a Clinical Director and Sex Offender Management Board Clinical Supervisor for Juveniles, is a window into empathy for juveniles who are currently in the Youthful Offender System in Colorado. She shares with us not only her years of experience as a therapist, but the way in which her life and philosophies have helped shape her approach. She has centered herself and her work around bringing your full self to the table,  using humor even in times or moments when that seems impossible, and how we can give the children in our lives autonomy.  

Sonya is a kind, insightful, hilarious force and we are lucky to bring this conversation to the Breaking Silence Podcast

Transcript

intro music 0:00

Hey,

Allison 0:10

everybody. Welcome back to the podcast. I am so excited to have Sonia with me. Sonia has been working in the youth correction services for well over a decade, she's a licensed professional counselor with a history of working with individuals have committed sexual offenses in addition to psychological intake and assessment, working with LGBTQ plus youth and adults, as well as people with developmental and intellectual nuance needs. Sonya is a full operating provider with the OMB or the Sex Offender Management Board, an appointed member of the OMB Best Practices Committee and a member of the dv. So training committee. Sonya earned her BA in psychology with a minor in Africana studies from the University of Cincinnati, and received her MA in forensic psychology at the University of Denver Professional School of Psychology. In other words. Sonia is a badass has been doing a lot of things to help this world a better place for a long time. I'm, very glad that you're here. So welcome to the podcast. Thank you. Thank you. Yes Yes time to be here Absolutely. It's really great. I'm excited for this conversation to sort of You're now more focused on the juvenile side of things and less in the adult space, right? We met 10 years ago ish when you were working in the adult space at a treatment Provider there in denver. So it's been a while Us knowing each other and i'm just really glad the worlds collided where we saw each other at a conference last year Now we get to do this and have a nice little chat. So, yes, no,

sonya 1:50

I, yes, it's good to catch up. It's really good to reconnect.

Allison 1:54

Absolutely. Yeah. Will you just tell the listeners a little bit about what your work entails and sort of the purpose behind being a treatment provider for those that are in the correctional system?

sonya 2:07

Yes, absolutely. So I, you know, work In a facility for youth who have committed varying offenses from sexual offenses to violent acts such as like aggravated robbery or aggravated assault, attempted murder, murder, trying to think things related to substance use. So anything that would lead to a youth being placed into the criminal justice system in the state of Colorado. And so we provide services. which can include individual treatment sessions, group therapy sessions, as well as family engagement. Because we, you know, we're working with juveniles, it's very much, it takes a village concept. Um, so we try to incorporate family, guardian, guardian, legal professionals, people that can wrap around the youth and try to provide an opportunity for them to have a second chance at life. And so a lot of our work is providing rehabilitation as well as potentially healing, right? So it depends on, you know, how deep they want to get into the services we offer, because a lot of times people aren't really ready for that deep dive. They're comfortable being surface level, which is okay, you know, and then when they're ready to below the surface and, you know, we are ready to help them through that process.

Allison 3:28

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, what is the goal? I think there's words get thrown around like justice and correctional and healing or reconciliation. There's so many things that get kind of talked about in this space. At the end of the day, what's kind of your, your goal with the youth that you're working with?

sonya 3:49

So I think the biggest goal, so as a, like a systemic piece. So there's been a change from referring to it as corrections and to youth services. So a lot of it is looking at to providing treatment and offering treatment. And so with that, our goal is to help the youth identify one, how did they create harm, right? How did they cause harm? And what level of accountability and responsibility are they taking? In, in the harm that they created from there. But then we look at, okay, what was the root, right? What are the root causes for, for that, for that behavior? And then how can we take the steps through various treatment modalities? Most of the time, it's usually based in behavioral therapies, whether it's cognitive behavioral therapy, dialectical or,. Rational emotive behavioral therapy. And so part of those things help lead to what we call RCJ or restorative community justice, right? Because the idea is to understand the harm that has been caused and also to repair the harm, whether that's doing, RCJ projects. So as youth kind of earn goals or complete tasks throughout their time in our facilities, they can earn different levels or different phases. And one of the things to tie it back into the treatment aspect is to do a restorative community justice project where they either talk to families who have had youth in the system or they do a fundraiser to donate money to shelters for survivors of interpersonal violence or domestic violence, shelters in general, because part of like reasons why a lot of our youth commit their crimes may be because their parents or their guardian, you know, struggled with stable housing. So they felt like they had to, you know, engage in aggravated robbery or stealing cars or stealing things out of cars or robbing houses to be able to support and provide for their family because They noticed or made, made the observation that their parent or the person that was supposed to be their caregiver could not take care of them. And so a lot of them, you know, have crimes of necessity in their history or have just a lot of instability. And so they took matters into their own hands to make it stable and, you know, ended up costing them their ability to be free. Um, and ended up in our systems.

Allison 6:07

Yeah. And then that's such a interesting point, the reactionary side of the kids. I think a lot of times also when we put, I know it's not called corrections anymore, but just for the sake of people kind of what I'm saying is like, yes, that when a kid goes into the correctional space, it's because they make this choice, like almost an adult level of understanding, like they, they committed a crime and now they have to face punishment. And I think we forget that they're kids. And sometimes when it's a kid, want to do the thing that they feel like is going to be helpful and don't go through the cognitive process of necessarily punishment associated with that crime? Does that feel like something, you know, you see a lot of as kids coming in and not necessarily knowing or associating it as bad or struggling with that element a little bit? So I see it in a

sonya 7:08

lot of different ways. So like, So the term we use a lot is adultification, right? And so that definitely happens a lot. And also what I've been seeing, interestingly enough, not just in the state of Colorado, but in a few other states as well, where there have been adults who not necessarily groom, but they like youth who are involved in like street life or gang life in that culture. Adults are using, minors are using juveniles to commit crimes because they understand, okay, if you get caught, you're doing less time. So we've been actually seeing an increase in that. And so it's that piece of them justifying or saying the hate, like normalizing that behavior or making it okay for them to engage in that behavior, you know, and so they're not finding out until they're in our treatment facilities or until, you know, they're in a court. Getting ready to get sentenced, you know, that, Oh, I shouldn't have gone this route, or maybe I shouldn't have gotten to this car, you know, so that they're having those thoughts of regret or processing that while they're sitting in detained in a detained room or in a space because they're, you know, getting ready to spend the rest of their teenage years in a facility, you know, so I definitely see a lot of that. I do see some youth who in the moment. know that they were looking out for self and there was, there was no empathy in the moment. There was no considering others in that moment. It was either I'm gonna get you, are you going to get me, you know, so to speak, or, you know, either. My family eats or they starve, you know, and so those decisions or those crossroads were more important in that moment than, oh, how is this going to affect somebody else? Or what, me making this decision or me making this move, what kind of harm is that going to create for the community? Like in that moment, that is not something that's on their radar.

gap 9:04

Right.

sonya 9:04

And definitely not at the front of their brain. So yeah.

Allison 9:07

Yeah. Do you try to help them connect those two worlds? The world of you wanted to fulfill this need, which in some ways feels very rational. You know, I think if I was experiencing a, a moment where I wanted to help or do something and that's my mindset, that makes sense. And then connecting to harm of that action. What does that process look like? Like for, for youth and, and for you also in the work of being a provider.

sonya 9:39

It's very challenging. Um, especially when, because I think what also is happening for the youth when they make those realizations, it's like, well, I can't go back, right? I can't, I can't take, turn around the hands of time. There's no time machine for me to go back and make a different decision. So not only are they processing, okay, what I did was wrong. And now I'm at a place where I have to figure out how to repair harm. But then it's like, well, then how do I go forward from here? Right. There's just a lot of our youth, you know, that, as I was saying earlier about like their adult peers, right. May not say the family members, but the adults that they've been around or older teenagers that they're around that are influencing them to commit crimes. Right. It's like, well, I, you know, the other thing that pushed me over the edge to go along with this was because, you know, I found out my girl was pregnant or Becoming a parent for the first time, or my mom was getting evicted on my, my parents were getting kicked out or, you know, we had to find somewhere to go. And so there's this resentment too, of why am I putting this position to take care of someone? Right. Because I didn't have the education. I didn't have that know how of, you know, whether it's the talk about. healthy relationships or healthy sexuality or about, you know, when, when you see your parents struggling, right. Or, um, having to stay at your grandma's house or your auntie uncle house because your parents is working 20 hours out of the day. So they needed somebody to come watch you. And so not really understanding that. And understanding their role is that with all of that, we still wanted you to be a child, but that's where the adultification comes in. And a lot of them too are like, well, I need to step up and do something. I mean, and on the flip side, like not to, you know, be misconstrued, but there are some youth in our systems that have a stable housing, have stable families, have two parent households. And one, one parent is, Uh, lawyer, one parent is a medical professional or something of that sort, and they just wanted to pursue a lifestyle that was totally different than what they were used to or accustomed to. You know, so like, let's like, to be fair, like it's not the one type of demographic that we serve. So it's very interesting, like as a treatment provider, knowing how to have conversations with the youth that's been on one side of the tracks and one youth on the other side of the tracks. And so. Just finding that balance and understanding that we can't use a cookie cutter approach when providing those treatment services because they have different needs, right? How they identify trauma varies from youth to youth. You know, one of my kids, he grew up in a very affluent family. So for him, his trauma was not necessarily receiving the level of love from his father that his other siblings got. Right. Where I have another kid who he's locked up and doesn't even know where his mom is at. Only for her, you know, to be found dead in like this desolate area. So it's like, those are two varying types of trauma that I'm working with as their BHS. And how do I support them? Right. How do I, Make sure that their basic needs are being met. How do I make sure that I may even able to get to the point of talking about the harm that they caused in their offense when we got other things to still deal with,

gap 13:00

you know, with so

sonya 13:00

many layering factors and so many things to take into account when working with juveniles, right? Because on top of that, you know, Well, we also talked about family engagement, so of course, parents and the guardians involved have their things that they want the child to address, but it's like, okay, we can get there, but there's also things we have to address with you,

gap 13:19

you

sonya 13:20

know, and so a lot of times we get that pushback as well of, well, I'm not the one in jail. My child is great. However, we're not sending your child to this is not the witness protection agency either. When they get released for parole or get discharged and have their mandatory release date, they're going back into the community. They were in when they committed a crime and got sent to us. Right? So it's like we're preparing them, but we're not preparing their environment. We're not able to prepare their families or their support as much as we would like to. When they're going back into that community, you know, and so I think that's one of the many barriers that I see as a treatment provider, and we even, I mean, we have that realistic conversation with our youth, especially our ones who are gang affiliated, we say, Hey, like, you know, we may have like the parole board or different boards. They want them to abstain from it 100%. But as a treatment provider, I know that's not a reality. Unless you're sending that child to another state or to another place, you know, in Colorado, that child is going to be right back into, in the mix, you know? So we, we have a different approach where we're having conversations like, okay, so do you really have to be In the front row when all the stuff is going down or can you play play a more low key approach, right? Um, you've done the time you've put in the work, right? That's the reason why you're in here doing this time is you put it on this effort, right? So what does that position look like for you when you leave, you know, they'll say oh, I don't want to deal with nobody I get it but then the first time you go to king super Or go to the grocery store or doing something with your family and you see somebody from that You From that group, right, from that circle, how are you going to approach that? You know, those are the different conversations we have. So I'm like, let's be realistic. Like as much as I want you to not be a part of a negative lifestyle, you know, that doesn't have longevity. I also understand that you can't escape it a hundred percent, unless your family is like, as soon as they come out, you know, we want to do an interstate compact and move to Illinois or move to. Des Moines, Iowa, you know, like whatever the case may be, right? Yeah, not every family has that opportunity, you know, because they can barely afford the place that they have here. So for them to up and relocate to another state is not realistic. So we have to be mindful, you know, what we are talking to our youth about. And being realistic and meeting them where they're at. Yeah. So that's one of the biggest things we take away, you know, in treatment is like that reality piece of, well, we know the route you were going either got you here and the next stop is death. Right, right. If it's not the federal peary, if it's not DOC, it's death. Mm-Hmm. Is that the path you wanna continue to take? No. Okay. So then what are you willing to do? What are you ready to do? And what are you able to do to make those changes? And so it's like, yeah. So, you know, and that's one of the things I learned in grad school is like, is a person ready, willing and able. And if they say yes to all three of those, then there are certain approaches you can take if they're only saying yes to one. Okay. Here's a, You have specific approaches to how you do that, because the person may be ready to do it, but they're not able to for whatever reason, or they're not willing, right? There's that barrier. So it's just, it's a lot.

Allison 16:32

Yeah. I mean, I like when I'm thinking about someone listening and they're like, wow, it's a lot of factors, you know, like, and it's you're a lot of times we feel with problems at this magnitude. It's like, well, there's what I can't change. Right. All this, right? And I think it's always important to remember that you don't have to change all of that. You just have to, if you can, look at what's happening in your space and maybe just asking yourself, I love the question of like, do you have to be in the front row of this? I think anyone, everyone should ask them that question. Like there's, there's, I mean, the way I interpret that is there's a time and a place to engage, and there's a time and a place to walk away. Um, whatever extent that means for you, but what a helpful check in, I guess, with ourselves.

sonya 17:22

Yeah, I'll do an example. So I like Snoop Dogg. Very well known that he's gang affiliated. I say, you think he's out here doing drive bys and pulling up on people, asking them what set they from? I No, right. He may drop a lyric in a song or two or you'll see him rocking his color, but that's it You that can be you like if you are If you are content and understand that you're not leaving the lifestyle 100 There's levels to this. And so he's always a person that I pick, like, I pull out, like, Hey, Nipsey Hussle, like, you know, RIP. But I'm like, he's another one, right? He was buying property, right? So it's like, how can you take that and flip it and make it a more beneficial to you and your community? And so like, I'd have those conversations and then I've been talking about the history of it. I said, because gangs, like didn't start out as just killing each other, selling drugs and engaging in all this things The, all the, of these things that are harmful to the community, they actually were the protection to the community when law enforcement weren't able or was choosing not to support them, you know, and so that's the other thing is I always try to connect their lifestyle and connect identity because I noticed some of the younger generation, they don't really, like, I, They're not really fans of tradition, but they also don't really look at history,

gap 18:41

sorry,

sonya 18:41

look at history and how things repeat, because I'm like, you're reinventing the wheel when all you need to do is just modify it or upgrade it. And so I try to connect that into treatment of, again, like using the Snoop Dogg reference, like, yeah, I'm pretty sure when he was young and first got into it, he was doing all the things that y'all were doing. Do you think he's doing that now in his age? Probably not. Yeah. He's doing sport casting with Kevin Hart, you know, that can be you, like you can be doing other things and still have that association and still have that affiliation. You just have to figure out that balance and what that looks like for you, you know?

Allison 19:18

Well, I love, I mean, it's sort of the approach of, I think a lot of times we get very rigid with rules. There's good. There's bad. Instead of there's. Human, right? Like you have to work with what you have and I'm not saying every rule works for you. Every rule doesn't work for every kid or every situation.. And it feels like that kind of the balance in this is like. I don't want you to commit harm. I don't want you to harm yourself. I don't want you to harm others. And I don't want to strip you away from your support system. And I want you to know in what you have, what serves you, what doesn't serve you. And that conversation is not black and white in any space, I would imagine. And yes, holding it.

sonya 20:13

Yes. How do you hold it? I guess, especially with juveniles, you know what I'm saying? So it's like, yeah, you know, that's the thing I think ultimately what helps in that reminder. But yeah, so with, Juveniles, right? Like their development is different. Things that we should expect from a 15 year old is not the same things we should expect for a 25 year old or a 30 or 80 year old, right? So it's that developmental piece, because I think the biggest thing that I've had to share, not only with the youth, but their family is like Ego plays a big part, right? For in their stage of development as a teenager, they're about how people perceive them, how they want others to perceive them. And, you know, how, how am I, like, where's my place in the world? They're trying to identify their, their autonomy. And so there's going to be pushback. They're going to challenge that's, that's part of the development. So I use that to be like, okay, so you want to be like all these other people, but who are you? How do you make that a thing? And so that was one of the things I had to tell a parent one time because they were like, well, didn't you do this? I said, exactly. I said, but the advice that I have for this youth is coming from somebody in their thirties. I have to take myself back to when I was their age, 15, 16, 17 years old, because I would probably have the same approach. So I empathize and I understand that piece of it, but also understand that that is for that time. As you get older. you're not going to be 50 years old on a date saying, hold on, you know, for your anniversary and say, hold on, babe, let me go fight or cuss out this person because they said something about my shoes. Right. You're like, you're not doing that as an adult. And as you get older and it's like, for them, they don't see that because it's not right in front of them. So you have to constantly explain that. It's like, I get in this moment, that's how you feel. But the reality is. that will go away. That will not be the end all be all for how you navigate life. Yeah. And so like, it's just, you have to remind, and that's why I always suggest to especially new therapists and therapists in this field, you cannot be rigid. Like yes, Right. And how you do things and where you set certain standards. But when you're talking about treatment services, you have to meet the youth where they're at.

Allison 22:31

You have to. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, when you think about also parents or community approach, do you feel like that rule applies there too? That, you know, we can't be rigid with these kids. I mean, you could read. A million books, I'm sure, and the advice will be different in every single one of them. Um, but, you know, you, you work with enough kids in, in probably the hardest moment of their life. You know, at the end of the day, whether they're vocalizing it as that or not, this is nothing that they're going through as a fun experience. They're being taken away from their friends, from their family, from, you Community from freedom, right? There's no, there's nothing light about that experience for anybody, but especially for a kid. So, you know, as we, we think about protecting our kids, I also think part of that protection isn't that they never do anything wrong. It's how do we help them limit the extent of that hurt in making mistakes and growing up and listening to the ego part of it, which is not rigid and every kid's ego is very different, too. I mean, there are just some kids that naturally do sit back and some kids that come forward, you know, there's just that's personality and of itself. So how do you. I mean, I'm sure you do work with kids that are more mellow, that are more aggressive, that are more everything. Do you approach those kids differently as far as, you know, the more shy kid versus the more outgoing kid? Do you feel like it's kind of the same no matter what as far as like how to keep them in that healing space or is it a little bit different?

sonya 24:16

I definitely look at different approaches for each of my youth. And also, yeah, each of my youth and the different youth that I interact with, like, outside of my caseload. Because I know, like, there's certain youth where, not necessarily a tough love approach, but like, if, like, I know if they approach me a certain way that's a little aggressive and I can match that, they can handle that. Where I know if I use that same approach on a youth, That isn't used to that they will cower or there will be a like a outburst anger outburst because that's something they're not used or accustomed to. So I have to be very mindful of how I approach every youth that I work with. And then I also look at identifying strengths in areas of improvement. Right? So like a youth who isn't a talker, right? In like group settings, if I needed to give feedback to them, then we would meet individually, and then we'll talk about it. Because some youth, there's a lot of youth that don't have a lot of ego strength, which basically means when someone is in like a public speaking or a group setting, right? And they're being, um, critiqued or given feedback, right? That's not really an appropriate place for them because now they're having these thoughts of, oh, now they see me as somebody who's inadequate or somebody who's this or that. And so all these negative thoughts, you know, so the approach for them would be to have that conversation. separately or individually, right? Whereas you have a youth who could be in a group setting, you give that feedback and they will be receptive of it, will ask questions, and then you have some youth who are the ones giving the feedback, you know, it can have those conversations and can take a leadership role. So it's just how you see them and how they navigate in that environment, which helps in how you support them. And how you are receptive or how you offer feedback to them, whether that's in part like individually or in a group or public setting. So yeah, it's just, it just depends on the youth and how they are receptive to things like some youth that just when you explain stuff like you got to give them one task at a time. Where some youth, you can give them three and they'll remember all three of them. You know, whereas if you give one kid three, then they'll put them in different orders so you have to be mindful and have to remind yourself, like not every youth takes instruction the same. You know, it's almost like coaching. Um, one of my friends, they use that example. It's like, if you ever coached, like you can be talking about the same drill, but you have to explain it 50 different ways for each youth, because they're going to understand it differently than the next. And it's the same way with therapy.

Allison 26:55

Yeah, when you were talking, I was like, it is so much like coaching. It's finding the strength. And not getting stuck on the weakness, but getting focused on the strength. Like, what do you bring to the table? What is your strength in that? And really molding it into the positive side for, you know, the coach's opinion on the field, but for you in life, how do you move forward with your, with who you are fully intact, but know that. You know, you can't go full on sprinting because you'll only last three minutes in the game, right? You've got to exactly. You got to you might get speedster, but I need you to slow down sometimes. Right. Like, it's OK. I want you to run in these moments. Know those moments. I want you to be calm in these. And that, you know, just feels like you really see your kids. I feel like there's so much in prevention work of just. Seeing people not trying to force people into what we think or what we read, but it has to feel so hard because you are a clinical therapist, right? Like, and when we think about that, we think about the book and the literal book of the clinical way that we solve the world's problems. Um, you know, what, That balance, you just have a really beautiful balance of that. How, how did you kind of, I'm sure it's experience and all those things, but what kind of motivates you to stay in that place of, of seeing each kid?

sonya 28:32

So I, I think one of the like, modalities or schools of thoughts that I gravitated to was existentialism and identity. And I think being, you know, um, there's a running joke with a colleague of mine, because we're both Black therapists, how we're unicorns, right? And so not only being a Black female therapist, but also working in a setting where majority of the youth look like me, you know, they could have easily been my son, my nephew, my cousin. So, in, in that position as a clinical, as a mental health professional, understanding that some of them have lived similar lifestyles of family members, right? I, I'm using that as a way to see them as human. Because I understand that they're in a world where they're not seen as that, you had mentioned earlier where a lot of times we see our juveniles as just criminals and nothing more, nothing less. And so I always go in understanding that, yes, they did commit a crime. Yes, they have a lot of maladaptive coping skills, right? But my role is if I can change one of those things. I've done my job. And as a therapist, I think universally, we always go in bright eyed, bushy tail, wanting to change the world and understanding that we're not an Avenger, nor are we on the Justice League. So, you know, we got to plant one seed at a time and show them how to nurture it, how to bring water to it, how to feed it, how to make sure it gets enough sunlight. That's our role. And so if one person could get a sprout, hey, I'm accomplished. I've, I've done my job. So that's that piece. I also try to bring humor into therapy. So like one of the things that I do and it's like finding that balance, right. And also remembering the youth that you deal with. So one of my kids, he is like a, you know, petite youth, but every time like a youth would attempt to fight him, he stood his ground. Like he has heart.

gap 30:31

And

sonya 30:31

so one day he just casually got into a fight with somebody I'm having a staffing in one room and right outside him and another you get into a fight. So then later, after they get physically managed and they get, you know, consequence for the fight or whatever. I was like, look here, Roberto Duran. And he was like, who's that miss? And I was like, he's a Hispanic boxer and you know, he laughed. And he was like, really, you know, or I had another client who, when he would get upset and just take off running, like when he's outside, he'll just go run it. And he's not like trying to escape, but he just runs. And, you know, and so I was like, all right, what's up, Usain? And it's not a way to demean the youth, but it's like, what are we doing? what's happening? Right. What's going on. And so for them, it's like, It makes it digestible, If I'm constantly throwing therapeutic jargon at them and colloquialisms that only somebody with my degree would understand, they're not going to get treatment.

gap 31:27

Right.

sonya 31:27

So it's like they're having that ability and that capability to make something complicated, simple and something simple, complicated, So I may simplify things so that they can understand it and digest it, but then I flip it right and speak it into a language that their client manager can understand their legal professional their parent, so that they know that, okay, so this is what y'all are talking about in treatment. This is what we're doing, and it's about. honest conversation, right? It's being real. And so that for me is what has helped me in my longevity in the field. Because yes, it is very trying. It is very challenging, because you know, you can't save them, and so I remember having a conversation, we were running a group one day, And the kid was like, how many of y'all grew up in the hood here and accounted for? I did. And so it was kind of because they're so used to saying that around people who haven't had that experience. I said, but I have. And they were like, yeah, but you had a different, I said, I know I did. But that's also to show you that just because you were there doesn't mean you have to stay there physically and mentally.

gap 32:29

You

sonya 32:29

have an opportunity. Right. And you know, one of the kids said, well, you had the support and I didn't. And I was like, touche. I said, but you have it now. And how can we fix that, how can we change that for you? So when you leave us, you continue to have the support that you didn't have before you came here, and even with that, you can still do great things, right? You just have to identify that support in another way. And so that's what leads to those other conversations, you know, and bringing that because then I'm like, okay, because not only am I seeing them, They have an opportunity to see me as a human because a lot of times, right, they just see me as staff or oh, you're just my therapist, And there's nothing more to us. They think we live there or they don't think we experience things like I think one of the biggest things when COVID happened. The kids would like, they were like, wait, so y'all telling me people are fighting each other in the aisles over toilet paper and disinfectant wipes, you know, like they, but it's, it's like, once they get out there and like solve some of the things, it was like, okay, they're speaking facts or they're saying these things and it's making sense, you know? And so that's the thing that kind of helps me with that is just balancing the reality and speaking in terms that they understand. And still making that environment therapeutic. And I think, you know, especially for our youth that, inner city and they look like me and, and so for them, when they get that opportunity and see, Oh, she went a different route or there's other options out there. Like, I don't have to just fall into these different categories. And so that also helps, you know, and so I try to encourage them to explore certain things. And if that's the thing that sparks. and helps change their trajectory, then I've done my job.

Allison 34:09

Yeah.

sonya 34:09

You know?

Allison 34:10

Yeah. And you feel like, I mean, the way you taught, it's like building a new. A new, right? Like a new world, new perspective, a new, because if, if all we did in therapy or in the juvenile side of things was be punitive, punish, right? Say you messed up, you made a mistake, you've messed up, own it. Right. If we just kept going back to that, they would have no hope. They would have no joy and they would leave more likely to just fall on their Right back in with all of those things because it gets to this point probably of like, well, what is the point if I can't, if I can't see it differently, if I can't see my actions mattering in any way that I'm just gonna be back here, regardless. There's no hope. There's no a new at all. I'm guessing change. Is impossible for them and building that is so beautiful and I think it's something that we all can do. We all can build worlds that show us there's an option for something new. There's an option for change. There's an option for better than what we are looking at right now. It, whatever that means for you, whatever the context of that is, um, with hope and enjoy, you know, I'm, I'm guessing the facilities are not the most hilarious of places and probably are not, uh, very bright and, uh, vibrant. I mean, I guess, I don't know. So I think, you know, when you bring in joy and humor, does it sometimes take the kids off guard? Like, cause I'm guessing their life is pretty. serious in the facilities? Like, so does it kind of like, Oh, wow, that's funny.

sonya 35:58

Yes. It's very like, I think it catches them off guard because my responses are never quote unquote normal in a sense of what they're expecting to hear from a clinician. And so, and I think, cause again, if we're talking about developmental, right, risk taking behavior, so, and also boundary pushing. So they may say things to see, Oh, Am I going to shock her or cause her to blush or say something inappropriate that'll throw her off? And what they fail to realize is that I'm very quick with it,

gap 36:29

and

sonya 36:29

so I match it. And so like, now, now both ears, you know, looking, looking confused, like what just happened? Even though I knew ahead of time. What the game plan was. And so, um, I think it's just very different for them in other ways. Like I've had youth be sexually inappropriate, like say things that were inappropriate. And then I'm like, so yeah, no, not, I don't, not sure why you thought that was going to fly, but it's not. And so one youth was like, well, I've never had somebody say no to me. I said, well, you're handling rejection very well. Right. So I flipped it and turned it into a uh, teaching moment. Like, hey, just so you know, rejection is a part of life, and so it's how you bounce back from that and how you handle that is what determines how you're going to navigate when dealing with rejection, right? And so, and then reinforcing those boundaries, like, you know, what was cool about that situation was that the youth later, like other kids, pulled him to the side and said, yeah, we don't do that with Ms. Sonya. We don't play them kind of games, right? So it's like because of me reinforcing the boundaries and really understanding the kind of space that I create when I'm facilitating groups or when I'm running a session, or even if I'm just on the pod, hanging out with the youth, you know, in between sessions. Right. You know, and just seeing how they're doing what they got going on, and it's like they, they build that camaraderie, they build that connection. And so it does throw them off. So then when things come up and they have questions, and I'm very transparent, as transparent as I can be about what's going on, what's not going on, and then how I can support them. so I think for them, it's like, okay, because I know there's a lot of transference, like, with a youth, I've been told multiple times, like, man, you remind me of my aunt, or you remind me of my mom, and so. With that, it's like, okay, well, then how did you treat them? Because not only am I, I also have to confront, you know, if they don't have the best relationship with any of their female family members, I'm modeling for them, how to incorporate a healthy relationship, right. With a family member, how to have better communication with their mothers, with their aunts, with their grandmothers, how to have better relationships, How to talk to women. Yeah, you know, and then one of the things I tell the staff as well is that we are their example of what healthy adulting looks like. I know we have our own journeys, We have our things that we're working on myself included. But when we are in front of these youth, when we are around these youth, we need to be making healthy decisions. We need to be doing things that are appropriate, especially in how we interact with them, because they're going to take that and And use it in the community,

Allison 39:00

you know, I mean, that's universal, right? Whether we're in a correction facility or not, kids look at us and, and they watch us. They observe us. Yes. Absolutely. They test us too. Right. I mean, they might just like literally test you, but literally, yes, they also watch and see and are like, well, how do these adults? Treat each other. Are they respectful? Do they argue? Do they cross boundaries? Do they say inappropriate things? And it all builds us in a way and makes us do things because if we learn by observation that that is okay, but then we're told it's not, my guess is we're going to do the thing that we saw versus the thing we're being told and that is not okay. True representation, but also the messiness, you said, you're a full person that goes through full experiences and you bring that to the table. I don't feel like you try to hide or pretend you are you, your boundary. That's but that is part of you, but you, you're, you're. But you come as a person and do you feel like that's a key element in really being able to connect with the kids as being a full person that's got emotions and feels things and goes through things?

sonya 40:20

I think the root of that of, so one of the mantras that I follow is know thyself. And so because I am aware of situations I can and can't handle, I'm able to bring myself into situations that I know that I can manage without it jeopardizing my livelihood and my ability to do my job. And so I think that helps me be able to be the person that I am when I'm in that space. And so a lot of people attempt to do that without doing the. Their introspection and their inner work to know what they bring, like whether that's the energy or like how they address things, right? Like, for example, if you are not a confrontational person. Do not present yourself as such when you are dealing with a youth or with other staff, because what's going to happen is the truth will slip out, and then they're not going to trust you because you are not up front with them. Right? You are not. And so that's the thing. especially when you're working in a facility, whether adults or juveniles, they will sniff that out. How real is this person How consistent is this person? And so when they know that they have the ability of the possibility of scaring you are making you feel uncomfortable, they will take it and run. And so I think, you know, and so, and I'm not saying I came out, you know, grad school like this. It took time.

Allison 41:44

Yeah,

sonya 41:44

right. But I also eased into it. I wasn't just, Oh, I'm going to be this from day one. And that's it. No, it's like, I was like, okay, let me do a little this. All right, that didn't work. So let's go back to the drawing board. So it was a lot of, okay, what works for me and what doesn't and understanding that. There's only one Sonya, right? I'm not going to be Freud. I'm not going to be young. I'm not going to be Gestalt. Like I'm not, I'm my own person, I learn from the people before me and a certain things and certain concepts that apply to the work that I do. And then at the end of the day, I add my, my, my flair to it, right? I add my razzle dazzle. And so I think that's what has helped me get into that place where I can bring myself because I know. my abilities. I understand areas that I still need to grow in and I understand my strengths. And so I mean, and that's the other pieces that I don't, I never stopped learning. Yes. I've been doing this work for over 10 years and yet I'm still learning. I still go to trainings. I still consult with newer Newer therapists, you know, okay. What are y'all learning in grad school now? Because what they're teaching me is totally different than what they're teaching you now, and we could have gone to the same program Yeah, you know and so like always like always learning always Knowing that I can still improve right one of my favorite sayings is along with know thyself is you can be a work of art You could be a masterpiece and a work in progress at the same time.

gap 43:14

You know,

sonya 43:15

and so under, again, so understanding that piece, right, of my identity, I see that and I often find that in the youth that I work with. And even the clients when I worked with adults, it's the same thing. It's like, is this going to be you forever? Is this the chapter of the book that you're going to stay in for the rest of your life, If not, then what can we do to start a new chapter? Yeah. Right? Or at least end this book and start the new book. Yeah. And so because of how the work that I put in with me, I'm not the same person I was 10, 15, 5 years ago, you know? So. We are, you know, my dad had this saying that when he would see people and say, Hey man, how you doing? He was like, I'm just surviving. His response was always cockroaches survive. We grow and develop. Right. And so as humans, that's, that's what we do. Our, our thing is to grow and develop. And so if I can do that for me, then I'm going to create a space to make sure that you learn how to do those things. So when you create that space for yourself, you know, for my clients that they can grow and develop and be better versions of themselves.

Allison 44:17

Yeah, I feel like we've, like, gotten a little bit of your philosophy in this, like, just the combo of you and what you bring to the table and the way that you see psychology and support and healing. It's just really wonderful, and I love that it's yours and you and I think we all have the capacity to find our theory, you know, our, our moment, our thing that fits us, that also resonates. You know, I say all the time that every self help book has already been written, but we keep writing them because I see the world differently than you do. And my feelings are different than yours and, and the things that resonate are different. And so that's why there's so many, or there's so many of everything. Movies keep getting made. We've told love stories. How many different ways, but we still want to see it and I think it's important to know and remember that whatever you have, whatever your theory is, your love, your story, it's it matters. It's powerful. And that, you know, you've really leaned into. yours and you practice it. I think that's the thing is it feels like every day you practice these philosophies that you've created for yourself and it's just really amazing. Thank you. Yeah, I love it. All right, before we get out of here, I guess I'll just ask you, I mean, I want to ask you a hard question, but I won't ask you a hard question. I'll ask you, um, Well, you know, I always, Obviously, as an organization, we're so interested in in the prevention space and it's it's probably hard because you are on the the side where the thing has happened, right? There's not the the prevention has failed, for lack of a better word, but If there's a way for us to disrupt some of the cycles you've been in this for so long, is there certain things or maybe part of your philosophy is some elements that we can take on for ourselves in our own lives in our communities to disrupt and help youth not land here or commit acts of violence, which, you know, I always say, those that commit acts of violence also experienced violence. Um, and that's really harmful. I mean, I know it's easy again to villainize, but when you hurt somebody, you were part of that violence and that, that hurts your body and your soul too. So disrupting is a positive thing for everybody. So anyway, is there any, anything that we can all do to disrupt this a little bit?

sonya 46:52

Um, man, I feel like there's so many like ways I can go with this. Um, You know, I think for me, starting with communication and transparency, I think. So like, randomly, like when people, I would go get my nails done and people would ask like what I did for a living. I'm like, oh yeah, I'm a treatment provider for people who commit sex offenses, right? And they're always like, well, what's the thing I can do to protect my child? I said, well, start getting comfortable with having the sex talk.

gap 47:21

Mm.

sonya 47:22

You know, and so and also body autonomy. I think that's the biggest thing to like as whether you're a parent or a guardian or you are around young people, right? Really teaching them body autonomy. Like if you're six year old niece and you're like, Hey, and they don't want to hug you respect that. Right? Right. Because you're teaching them. Hey, yeah. Like, I don't want to be touched right now. Cool. You got it. Right? Because I think a lot of times his parents or his guardians were his elders were always like, you better hug your so and so. Then you're teaching them that their body doesn't belong to them.

gap 47:58

Right? So

sonya 47:58

I think a lot of unlearning needs to take place. I also think we need to start having Appropriate healthy conversations about sex and sexuality. Um, because I think a lot of times too, right, it gets weaponized to support someone's power control because they're either have had feelings of powerlessness, a lack of control has a felt inadequate, right? All of those things are usually the route in which they go into a cycle or this progress of engaging in harmful behavior.

gap 48:29

Yeah.

sonya 48:29

So if we create spaces for them to. be themselves and learn what that is for them and what that looks like, even if it goes against the status quo

gap 48:37

and

sonya 48:37

give them that space to do that. I think we would break a lot of these cycles, you know. And so I think, like, if we can start there, at least, in being, in being that safe space for somebody to grow and develop and be vulnerable and identifying and knowing thyself, I think that would, I think that would disrupt a lot of the cycles and a lot of the patterns, you know, and understanding that violence doesn't have to be the answer.

gap 49:02

Right.

sonya 49:03

You know, and finding alternatives. And it's, I think I can go like a lot of different directions I can go on, but I think that's my biggest thing is just that being transparent and, and allowing people the space to define their own human hood.

Allison 49:18

Yeah, I love that. Yeah. And you know, 100 percent everything you just said there is amazing. And I think too, knowing as the reaction to a kid saying they don't want to hug you or touch you being very okay with that and remembering like you're the adult. So it is like, I don't want to hug being like, no worries. Sometimes I don't like hugs either. That's great. Right? Like just, it's normal. It's fine. It doesn't become like a, oh, that makes me sad. Or like, it's not about then projecting a feeling onto that kid. It's, it's a true teaching of this is completely fine. And above all else, I am fine. Your hugs do not. Make me a more valuable person, right? Like I am valuable and secure whether I got a hug from my You know nephew or nieces like it's exactly it's okay And I think that part of it too giving them the permission and then following through on their answer with yes Security a secure moment.

gap 50:27

Yeah,

Allison 50:27

I think is important too on

sonya 50:29

that right and even supporting them and Another member doesn't have that same response. You're like, well, come on, you got to hug me. No, if they said that they did not want to hug you or want to hug right now, just take the ale. Like, it's, you know, like we, I'll give you a hug, like, you know, but if they, they're not at a place to give out hugs or receive hugs right now. So we need to respect that.

Allison 50:52

Oh yeah. You know,

sonya 50:53

I love that. Yeah.

Allison 50:54

That's great.

sonya 50:55

Going back to the same people, you know, you got to, even if they're six, three years old, this, that's a person, you just got to see them as, as a person. Right. A whole person,

Allison 51:05

a whole three year old person, you know, that, like, not seeing them as older or younger, but just as a whole where they are, you know, that's, that's your power. That's your magic. You, you see the kids where they are, regardless of age or anything. It's that this person's person I'm sitting with, I'm sitting with, and that's what I see and that's who I see. And that's who I'm with. And that's a powerful tool. I think we all have and possess.

sonya 51:34

Absolutely.

Allison 51:35

Amazing. Well, thank you so much for being here and saying all the incredible things that you said. I can't thank you enough. It was just truly amazing. So thank you.

sonya 51:46

You're very welcome.

Allison 51:48

Um, till next time, everybody, we hope you liked the podcast and please like and subscribe. Bye, everybody.

intro music 51:55

Music Outro