Diving into the Harm of Being Catcalled w/ Terra Lopez

Catcalling has been so normalized in our society that we often dismiss it and assume that it does not do any harm. Terra Lopez, host and creator of "This is What it Feels Like", joins us as she talks us through the often untold consequences that come from catcalling such as harassment, sexual assault and even murder. We walk through the power of learning  and owning what our words and actions may be doing to others and how being curious can often open doors that were closed in our hearts.

Her podcast and art installation, "This is What it Feels Like," puts people "in the shoes of everyday people at the center of issues often overlooked or politicized by society."  Terra has the incredible ability to shine light on topics that many struggle to talk through or even understand the fully gravity of,  and we are so thrilled that she was willing to share space with us and bring further understanding to the incredible work she is doing.

To learn more about the incredible work Terra is doing please listen to her podcast "This is What it Feels Like," and give them a follow  on instagram!

Transcript

Allison 0:10

Hey everybody, welcome back to the podcast. I'm joined here today with Tara. She's an artist, musician, and podcast host known for her captivating stage presence through thought provoking artistry, relentless work to inspire real change in her community, and beyond. Tara launched This Is What It Feels Like, an interactive auditory exhibit where cisgender men can experience what it feels like to be a female presenting person subjected to gender based harassment. The exhibit received international attention and had over 15, 000 people experience it at all events across the globe. So, Tara, welcome to the podcast. Thank you so much for having me. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I guess just for context, can you describe this exhibit to our audience a little bit more and what it feels like to experience it? Absolutely.

Terra 0:59

So back in 2016, It was a tumultuous time politically and just in general, I feel, and I was sitting in on my wife's book club and the conversation kind of started going around. Everyone started sharing their catcall experiences. And as I was listening, I was realizing, wow, we all have them and if not multiple, and they were really scary. Some of them were, you know, stories of being attacked, stalked, assaulted, just so beyond what our society normally thinks about when you hear the term catcalling, right? And so, I was really angry and I wanted to do something about it. And so, I came up with the idea that I I sketched it out on a napkin where I was just wondering if cis men could experience what it felt like to be cat called. Would that then hopefully change their perspective or change their actions? And so the exhibit quickly came together after that. It was a long hallway, a narrow hallway, Blocked out where there's two curtains on each end. And so you the person is walks through there's headphones hanging in the middle of the exhibit and There's a mirror and the idea is you put on these headphones. It's very dark. There's one light directly above the mirror And you stare at yourself as you listen to these catcall experiences. And we put a call out to folks in the community to get their catcall experiences. And then we had cis men go into our recording studio and record these catcalls. And that alone was such an experience in itself. But the exhibit really, I wanted folks to, one, experience it by themselves. That was the intention. And also, Have it be just this very lone experience that was centered solely on the audio. I didn't want any distractions. I didn't, you know, and that was the whole premise of having it completely blocked out and having it be very minimal was I wanted the experiences of the cat calls to be the whole premise, the whole focus.

Allison 3:28

What I feel like part of the uniqueness of this experience is the fact that it's not from the survivor perspective. A lot of times I feel like when we experience things we're being told from that side and you kind of flip the narrative on that. Why did you decide to have it be the catcalls coming at cisgendered men as opposed to cisgendered men experiencing women's experiences of catcalling? for listening. You

Terra 3:57

know, for

Allison 3:58

me, I

Terra 3:59

wanted, in my experience, when I have tried in the past to speak to men about my own personal experiences, I haven't felt heard most of the time. I'm a musician, and so for the last, like, 15 years, I've traveled the world, you know, playing shows, and every single time I've stepped on stage, I've, been, uh, questioned about do I know what I'm doing, you know, and just kind of faced with that on a consistent basis. And so as I was talking to other, other friends and other women in my life, they also kind of reiterated that and echoed the sentiment that it doesn't matter how much I explain my experience, I don't feel like it's actually going to be hurt unless another man listens to it from it. a male perspective. And so I really wanted to use this exhibit as an experiment and to see, is that the case? Will men listen to other men and take it seriously? And sadly, that was

Allison 5:06

what I found

Terra 5:06

to be true.

Allison 5:08

Interesting. Yeah. Is it when they are done walking through the exhibit, is there a general Sensor feeling that comes from it. I mean, I would imagine I feel like a lot of times when we think about really immersive experiences like this, we think of. Overwhelming people or potentially triggering people, putting them in a situation they can't deal with, which I typically push back on because I think we have to experience the truth and the width of human emotion. Is that something you think happens a lot of the time or what is sort of the reaction from these men?

Terra 5:41

Yeah, so that was all a concern of mine. I definitely had a premise the trigger warning. There really isn't a lot of information about the exhibit before you walk in, but there is a trigger warning letting folks know that this very well might be an overwhelming experience. And so that's we have a disclaimer saying, you know, spend five seconds in here. Spend a minute in here kind of just whatever you as the the person experiencing. This can handle is totally fine It's meant for it's meant for that and I agree. I do think personally that we need to Show these experiences and have people experience it in order to understand the full spectrum of it But you know, it was really interesting. We would have some men who were very combative You at first, who would say that we were lying, that this wasn't a real experience that female presenting individuals have to endure. And I would then challenge them to go through the exhibit. And I would say like, I'm not trying to persuade you or tell you how to feel. Just go experience it and let me know afterwards. And every single man that went through the exhibit afterwards was shocked. Or changed their perception or wanted to, I had quite a few experiences where men would come out with tears in their eyes and apologize for their own actions and be like, you know what, I actually do this or I have done this. And so that was really so powerful to see, like, okay, this is actually working in real time. We also have a wall at the end of the exhibit with a simple question, how did it make you feel? And that's kind of where we want folks to decompress and let us know, you know, was this overwhelming? Was this triggering? Do you have your own experience that you'd like to share? And those walls alone are just incredible testament to the exhibit and to how powerful it can be.

Allison 7:50

Yeah, absolutely. And I feel like one thing I wonder about cat calling, and I don't know if this is part of it, is what are you trying to get at? What is the goal or the aim? You know, obviously, we know that with any form of harassment, there's power dynamics and an over somebody feeling, right? I'm I'm I get to make you feel a certain way and I like how that feels. Did you feel like men walked in being like, there's no harm because it's appealing. There's no harm because it's fun. There's no, like, is that, was that kind of, I guess the purpose behind it maybe felt different to them than how that purpose is received by women? Absolutely. That

Terra 8:33

was actually a A lot of the initial feedback from men who were kind of like, what's the big deal? Or I'm just trying to be nice. I'm just trying to like give you a compliment. And to that, we would say, you know, this experience can be incredibly violent. And can escalate very quickly. And I think that that's what a lot of folks don't understand, is that an unreciprocated catcall can escalate so quickly and has, and we have seen this happen time and time again, of folks being hurt, assaulted, even murdered for simply not smiling back or not responding or for standing up for themselves saying, please don't talk to me in that way. In doing a lot of research for this exhibit and continuing to, we came across a lot of instances where that was true, where folks were harmed for not reciprocating a catcall, and I think that that's what is always missed in the conversation of when, you know, some say, well, I was just trying to be nice. It's like, that's, that's great, but that's not what this is all about. This is about the impact outweighs the intent, right? And so I think that that is what we are really trying to convey here is that I personally do not believe that there is anything as a simple catcall I just don't believe in that. I think that there is actually always, like you said, power dynamics at hand and. I've seen the escalation. I've heard stories of how quickly things can escalate. And it's just to me, I would love to live in a world where it's just not even a conversation that we have to have anymore,

Allison 10:25

right? Absolutely. And I, I think, you know, when people kind of fall on the defense line of what I didn't mean to, or it was supposed to be flattering or, you know, whatever kind of, I guess, positive spin we're trying to put on it is. Even if something feels positive to you, it doesn't mean it felt positive to the person that received it. And the culture shift is to get that side in the power position, the person that doesn't feel safe. That voice mattering more than the voice saying, well, I was just having fun and I was just trying to give a compliment. It's like, well, if it doesn't feel like a compliment, then it's not like it. Right. No matter intention. It doesn't matter if that person receives it as a threat or aggressive or scary, it is that. Do you feel like men are after walking through are able to get to that space of Seeing it that way?

Terra 11:23

Yeah, I'll never forget a time. There was an older man who was very, very combative prior to walking through the exhibit. Really aggressive and questioning, you know, who did you get this information from. Are these people real? I don't believe you. And I'm like, all right, that's not my job to make you believe this, but please feel free to experience the exhibit. And I'd love to hear your thoughts afterwards. And I was expecting him to maybe be in there for like 10 seconds, 20 seconds max. He was in there for two to three minutes, which is a long time to be in that exhibit. And afterwards he came out. And he was in tears. He came up to me and then proceeded to talk about his daughters and also then repent for his past actions and the times where he had either cat called or even went further than that with women in his life. And that was really heavy to experience and to be on the opposing end of that. But it was also, um, Really affirming to have him say, I'm going to think twice next time was truly the exact hope that we had when creating this exhibit was hoping that we could get folks to come to that conclusion on their own and change their own behaviors or step in and If they see a friend, you know, catcall or have some type of behavior step in and say, Hey, that's not cool. Or why are you doing that? And so we definitely saw this happening in real time. And that was really powerful. We also had I'll never forget this experience of a 75 year old woman walking through the exhibit and she came out in tears. And at first I thought, oh, this was obviously triggering or, or, or something, you know, resonated with her. And she grabbed my hand and just said, thank you for the first time in my life. I feel heard. I feel actually validated and seen. And that was really powerful on the complete end of the other side of the spectrum to see that people are feeling heard. People are at least validated in their own experiences. And that Men are also seeing that there is room to change, and we really try to create a space where There wasn't judgment, but there was accountability, and that is, um, something that we're still trying to kind of, you know, find that balance of.

Allison 14:02

Yeah, on that point, I have so many questions off of what you just said, but I'll go with the one there at the end is, How do you explain that difference to people? Because a lot of times, when we look at sexual violence, which is what I'm going to classify catcalling as, is there's a calling out versus calling in, and we want to make someone a villain, and it's not every guy's a bad guy, or every person's a bad person, and I would say no one that works in this field is saying that. That's not The general narrative, but it feels to be the general feeling. So how do you try to communicate the difference between accountability and punishment or even a fuck you in a way?

Terra 14:49

Totally, you know, and that was the conversations that I tried to have before men specifically walk through the space. Because there would be men who immediately were like, not me, I don't do that. Yeah. And I'm like, that's great. I'd still love if you would come experience this, if only to hear the experiences and to witness it, to bear witness to that. I tried really hard to let men know that, again, I'm not trying to change your mind. I'm not trying to tell you. What is right necessarily. I just want you to bear witness. And that was kind of the language that I would offer. And afterwards, folks always wanted to talk. It was very rare when someone would go through the exhibit and just walk away. And so we would have these conversations with men where Again, they would want to repent for what they did. They'd want to disclose, uh, times where they either engaged in catcalling or in assault or they witnessed it and didn't do something about it. And I tried to have as much compassion and empathy in those conversations because I thought, okay, here's an opportunity to bridge this gap and to hopefully change future behaviors. I'm not saying I was perfect every time. It was really difficult to listen to men disclose some of this, but in most of the conversations, my goal was to create a judgment free zone. So then that way they could see. Okay, I'm not saying you're a bad person, but these actions need to change and there needs to be accountability here and you're owning up to that. Great. Now, let's actually do it. Utilize that in the future through action. And so I found this exhibit and now the podcast to be a space where we can have those difficult conversations because they are, they're so difficult, but they're so necessary in order to, you know, to get folks to one, acknowledge that this exists and that this is real, but then also to change. Behaviors. Um, and so that was always my intention was to create a judgment free, empathetic environment. So then that way we could hopefully reach the folks that we really needed to reach.

Allison 17:17

Right. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I think about even my own perspective of cat calling and I've spent so much of my life minimizing that experience, I think partially just societally, it feels like that. But, you know, if you ever kind of share like, yeah, it was cat called, it's like, yeah, whatever, like it gets thrown away, I guess is something I even in myself have this sort of narrative of what is the big deal? Like, It's just something that happens. And that's part of the gig, you know, that's just how it is

Terra 17:48

normalized. Yeah, it's so normalized in our society. It even took me, you know, so much reflection to actually understand like, Oh, yeah, I did experience that. And that's not okay. Because it is just society kind of teaches us that this is what to expect. And it also teaches us to be proud, you know, if someone comments on your looks, like that's a compliment. Again, it took so much unlearning on my part, but also researching and seeing, you know, how much violence can be caused from this type of behavior and also just how quickly it escalates. I was really inspired. by Rebecca Solnit, who wrote Men Explain Things to Me, where she talks about the violence that cis men have for centuries committed against female presenting individuals, and just how that perpetuates, again, What we are expected to endure and to carry with us, and we carry so much every day with us. And so I was just really inspired by her work and to then, you know, try in my own small way to create something that would hopefully at least just get folks talking. That was the biggest thing was like, I'm not trying to change every single, you know, behavior or end this completely. I'm not that naive. But I do think that we can create art to then bring these discussions to the forefront. And that's how you change minds. And that's how you change behavior.

Allison 19:32

Yeah, absolutely. I think it's, that's sort of the empathy piece, right? Is that none of us are perfect about any change, whether it's in the category of catcalling or any other societal Quote unquote norm that we're trying to change or reframe it is difficult for everybody and it's about taking the time and I think even having the humility to admit that maybe you don't know, maybe you don't know what it's like to be catcalled or maybe you don't know the extreme experiences that people have had and that In our action of making it small, we silence people, which is the harm of throwing an experience away. And I think the power of your exhibit is it gives people an understanding of how damaging it is to throw away someone's experience of being catcalled or in anything, whatever that experience is.

Terra 20:29

Yeah, I mean, you bring up such great points, and that is truly empathy and compassion was what, we built this entire idea off of was rather than calling out men, calling them in and, trying to have them be a part of this conversation and, and not be separated from it. Because I do believe that that is truly how we're going to be able to see progress in any aspect of life is unfortunately like. Thank you. I don't think people understand that. I think we, we do have to bridge those gaps of understanding in order to actually see progress. And so for us, it was with the exhibit. Now with the podcast, how do we create these conversations and create these safer spaces for folks to be able to admit I messed up or I don't know the answer, or I have so many questions because I think that's how we learn.

Allison 21:35

Yeah, absolutely. as you were mentioning the podcast, and I think it's a good place to kind of go, you talk about this is what it feels like is the name of the podcast. And also, it's not just the experience around catcalling, it's around abortion, suicide, healthcare for different identities. And, You know, what is your kind of goal? It's starting the conversation in the safe spaces, but why focus on, I guess what feels like the fringes at times, which isn't by the way, I mean, abortion, we know is very common. Everyone needs access to healthcare in a equal and inclusive way. But what I think we often are like, oh, well, why talk about this? It only impacts no one in my life. So listen, why learn? Why enter that space? It was

Terra 22:25

so important to me because every single day I would meet people, whether they were close friends in my life or strangers, that did have these experiences. And I realized, like, we all have so many questions but are so afraid to ask them. Which is understandable. We live in a society that is very quick to blame or to shame. And so, for me, I wanted to be able to create these safer spaces for individuals to share their stories. I truly feel that there are, we all have a story, multiple stories. We've all lived so many lives, and there are so many stories that I feel so passionate about that I do believe need to be heard. You know, it all started with The catcalling experience, but then it quickly went to, you know, I lost my father to suicide about eight years ago, and I felt in that experience, like, I couldn't talk about it for so many years because there is so much shame and stigma around mental health and losing someone to suicide, specifically, and I tried for years to find communities or folks to be able to talk to and just didn't really find anything. And so. When it came time to creating the first episode for the podcast, I knew that I wanted it to be about losing a parent to suicide and also about mental health for men, because I feel like that is, again, a subject that we don't talk about enough. And we don't allow the space for people to talk about it. And so, again, with this podcast, it really is just, you know, it's not trying to change the world in any way, but it is trying to create these dialogues and create these spaces where we can have these harder conversations and ask questions that, We want, you know, we're curious about, but maybe we don't know if it's okay to ask. And so, for me, it really is about, I find, obviously, communication is the easiest way to understand another person, to understand a divide, and to fix any type of division, I believe, starts with communication. And so, for this, Podcast, I knew I want to talk to people whose voices are historically underrepresented in media and go from there. And so season one was really, you know, trying to just find individuals that have incredible stories to share, but just maybe not the platform to share them.

Allison 25:02

Yeah, do you feel like in having these conversations, part of your hope from the listeners is to not get caught up in semantics and proper language to brush away from that and see that these, you know, every person behind the story is a person. So they're also not like, Professors in abortion rights, they probably don't work for ACLU, right, that they're just a person that had an abortion for the many reasons that you do, and they want to talk about it and not even as you know, I feel I find this with survivors of assault is that they just want to say the words they don't necessarily. But they're so afraid of saying the wrong thing and then people are so afraid of asking it in the wrong way that the conversation disappears. It's part of the hope to give an avenue where that feels less scary.

Terra 25:54

Absolutely, it was very intentional on my part to not have experts on this podcast, because one, I'm not a reporter. And there are so many spaces for those experts to share their knowledge. And I love that. But this podcast is it's for the human behind that experience. That's so important to me. Because like you said, If we're too afraid to ask the questions and to have the conversation, then it never happens. And then that person's experience is buried. And it's so important to me that we are able to provide a space where we ask the questions and we go there and we sometimes the conversation can get messy and that is what it is because I don't know everything about these topics like at all. I am just a, you know, normal person off the street, but it's curious about that experience and I want us to be able to talk about it. I want the person behind on the other side of the conversation to be able to feel heard and seen and validated, not judged, and to be able to truly. Share every single aspect of their story, and I want to be able to ask the questions just to understand the experience a little bit more, but I think it's so important. You know, I've had so many people reach out and just say, like, thank you. Thank you for asking that question because I've really wanted to, but didn't know it was okay to and that's Kind of what it's all about, you know, as long as it's in a respectful way, obviously, but for me, I'm just curious. I'm so curious. I want to know more about individuals and their stories, and I truly believe that we all have one. And yeah, it was really important to me to not have experts on the

Allison 27:50

show. Yeah, I mean, true curiosity is disarming. When we are Truly curious, which means we come into something without really expectation. We just are like, tell me about it. Say whatever. It's just, it's such a opening way to go about any conversation is to be super curious. You know, you have a very specific tie to the conversation around suicide. When you started sort of sharing or opening up the space for that, what was that like? For you, what kind of came out of taking that chance? I think for a lot of people, it's hard to take that step to say, I'm going to invite conversation around something that has hurt my heart and in such a major way, I think for a few

Terra 28:39

years, I didn't. And because of that, I felt very alone in that experience. Very isolated. misunderstood and just again, just very, very alone. And then when I started to open up about it, I realized there are so many people who also have experienced this on some level. And there was such community around that. And that made me feel inspired to not only talk about my own experience, but to be there for others. I'll never forget the time I was open about it online and I played a show in Boston and a father came up to me at the merch booth afterwards and just said, thank you so much for being so open about how it felt losing your father in that way, because I'm a father of two and I now know after hearing your experience that I cannot do that. To my children. That's not an option for me anymore. And I just realized that's why. That's the power of sharing your story. Because you never know how it's going to impact someone, or if it will. And I just ever since have just been so passionate about being an advocate for mental health, being open. If anyone has thoughts, feelings, questions, I want to be able to support, but I found community in being able to share my story. And I think that that's what individuals who go on this podcast also find being able to not only share your story, but to feel heard is so powerful. And I think there is so much power in just realizing like, Oh, I'm not alone in this experience, even though at the time it can feel like no one else is going to understand what this feels like. It's so important to kind of realize like there are people out there who are going to get it. And through that, I feel like there's just so much to learn and also just so much to build together.

Allison 30:42

Right. Yeah. I mean, inherently by sharing our story, we're giving a part of it to someone that's kind of the definition of sharing. Right. If I have a cookie and I share my cookie, I gave part of it to another person. Right. And stories are the same. If we share our story, we give a part of it to somebody. It's no longer just ours to carry, to live with, to own. It's a Gift that we're giving and as you've created that space, do you feel lightness kind of come over people, you know, I, I always find it really hard to describe, but you can spend an hour talking about the heaviest thing, right? It's, it's someone maybe going deep into their story and you leave it and everyone's kind of. Smiling or, and kind of is like, Oh my gosh, that was amazing. Or not amazing, but everyone, everyone has kind of a hard time. What is your experience like in creating that space for people?

Terra 31:38

Yeah, it is wild. Like, if you look on the surface, just on paper, of the topics that we look at, they are heavy topics. Abortion, suicide, mental health, ageism. Like, they're heavy topics, right? But, like you said, I think people feel lighter afterwards. I've had people share their stories for the very first time with me, and only me. Folks who have not talked to their own families about. their experience have come onto the podcast and that is really powerful for them. You see the shift before the conversation, during the conversation, and afterwards. There is a lightness. There's also the feeling of community of like, okay, we've shared this. We have this baseline knowledge of each other now, and you understand me just a little bit better. And I think that that's just so powerful. People have you know, afterwards reached out and said, whether it was a week or a month after the conversation, like, thank you so much. I didn't realize how much I needed to talk about that. Or, you know, it was healing. It was a healing experience. And I think it's funny because we carry so much every single day of our lives. We carry so much. And I think, you know, that's just part of the human experience. That is what we are kind of programmed. To feel it is just like keep going, but it's like if you actually sit down and talk about an experience, you realize like, wow, that was really weighing heavy on my heart. And I've let that go now. And so, yeah, I feel that even though each topic is really heavy. There's always a lightness, even within the episode of and it's it comes at the most unexpected places and times, but there is so much to say about just sharing your story with people. It truly

Allison 33:36

is like a physical weight lifted off of you. Totally. And I think that's the power that anyone listening can do is we can all create space and you have to. It has to be intentional. You know, I think a lot of times people feel so nervous. To share their story because they're like I don't want to burden people. I don't want to overwhelm people. No one wants to listen to this and Sometimes we just have to literally say like in for the next hour. We're gonna share something kind of big in our lives that maybe I don't know about you or maybe it's hard to talk about and And I think that that is with that intentionality, our stories also feel less burdensome, you know, I don't know how you feel, but when someone shares their story, I don't leave being like, Oh, well, fuck that was can't handle that. I feel like I'm in it with them. I feel like I'm, I was so lucky that I get to be a part of this journey. with no part of me is like, Oh, that was a burden. I guess that's not a feeling I get.

Terra 34:35

No. And I feel like when you share your story, you're then giving others permission to share theirs. And so to me, that's the greatest gift. Like you were saying, um, I feel always honored to be able to share that space with someone and to have that trust between us that they feel That comfortable enough to talk about these harder experiences because the truth is we all have had hard Experiences at varying levels and so it's something that we can at a baseline we can all at least Understand that aspect and so yeah, I feel like by sharing your own story You are then giving others permission to do so and that is huge

Allison 35:21

Yeah,

Terra 35:22

it's

Allison 35:22

a big deal. Yeah, to kind of go back to the exhibit, why take an artistic look at something that doesn't feel very artistic, like catcalling? And I mean, you're also a musician, so art is at the heart of you, I would say as a person, but what kind of led to that experience over Just simply doing a podcast from the get or maybe song writing about it, you know, why that specific platform?

Terra 35:48

That's a great question. I just felt so compelled to have it be direct in person and Almost provocative. I felt like again No matter how much I talk about my experience or someone else talks about their experience, I truly feel like a person has to embody that experience in order to truly understand or to have deep compassion for something. And so that was kind of how I just felt like I was. And still feel like the world works really and so my idea was, you know, I could sing a song about this But I don't think it's gonna reach the way that I want it to reach I want it to be direct and I do want someone to physically step into that space And so I don't know why the artistic route to be honest It was just the initial thought was I got to create a space an immersive space where folks can physically, mentally, emotionally experience this because that's the only way that they're going to care at the end of the day.

Allison 37:03

It sounds so powerful. Is there any exhibits coming up or spaces that people can experience that? Yeah,

Terra 37:10

so I'm talking to quite a few colleges at the moment to try to bring this is what it feels like back to life prior to the pandemic we were everywhere and it was incredible and then of course the pandemic happened, which is why I turned it into a podcast format so now that we're out of that hopefully I'm starting to look into bringing it back into physical spaces so talking to a lot of colleges at the moment and working with government. Officials to try to bring it to other cities is definitely the plan for 2024 2025.

Allison 37:47

Amazing. Go follow you all on Instagram for updates and all of those things. And then you have season two of the podcast in the works. Right now, what can we kind of look forward to hearing in season two?

Terra 38:02

Yeah. So we have a lot of different topics that we want to cover specifically, probably one of the first episodes will be about the medical system and feeling gaslit by your doctor. We've had so many people reach out with their own experiences for that. And so I think that that's a really important story. We also want to share queer elder stories and advice because For myself, as a queer person, I never saw myself as growing old, uh, because I didn't see it around me, you know? And so I just kind of thought like, okay, I'm going to die young. And I found that to be a sentiment that a lot of queer folks could resonate with. So I'm really excited about talking to elders and getting their insight and advice and wisdom. And just kind of, you know, their perspective on history as we've seen through the decades. So we're covering a lot. We're covering, um, so much from choosing not to have children to, gosh, so much.

Allison 39:06

I love that. I think it's really good. Even, even as you bring up those topics, it makes my brain start to think of things differently. And also as a queer person, just, you know, I've never thought about whether I thought I was going to grow old or not, but I'm thinking about it like, Oh, I don't know. I guess maybe I didn't. That's interesting.

Terra 39:21

Right. It was something that like, I just never, I couldn't see myself. I couldn't picture and I didn't see. older queer folks around me. And so, um, it's a conversation that I'm still kind of having with myself and also with friends where we're like, we need some representation here. We need to talk to folks. I have so many questions and I think that there's so much wisdom there to be shared. So I'm really excited about that one.

Allison 39:50

Absolutely. That's amazing. Yeah. Thank you so much for being here. Is there anything else you want our listeners to know or to take with them in this episode? I just want to

Terra 40:01

thank you for doing this work. I am such a big fan of the work that y'all are doing, and it's so, so important to have these conversations. So I feel honored to be able to be here. And if https: otter. ai T I W I F L P O D at gmail. com. Well, that's the email and then T I W I F L project on Instagram. But I just thank you so much for having me. This has been awesome.

Allison 40:31

Yeah, it's been really great. And I mean, Sam, the work you're doing is, is truly inspiring and incredible. And so thank you for being a part of. the larger conversations that we all need to hear and get curious about. And I think it's very powerful. We will also post all of those links in the episode notes. So go check it out and follow along. And thanks again for being here. Thank you so much. Bye everybody. Feeling

music 40:55

is here. Safety is right here. We are back in the silence, starting the conversation.