Accountability: The Post Conviction Process for Survivors

The post conviction process for a survivor of sexual violence can be a very lonely, overwhelming and confusing moment in their journey. In this episode, we have the amazing opportunity to learn more about what that is like for folks, what support is out there and how putting the survivors voice and story first is a major step in getting some of the power back. Casey, walks us through what it is like to walk along survivors and be the liaison between them and the offender, connecting bridges and helping bring as much clarity to the situation as possible. Going through the judicial system is never easy so having resources like Casey and the Blue Bench is not only necessary but something we need to work towards being a requirement in all states 

Resources: breakingsilence.org/resources

Transcript

Music 0:00

We are breaking the silence, starting the conversation.

Allison 0:10

Hey everybody, welcome podcast. I am joined here today with Casey. Casey is someone that has worked for the last five years as a post conviction advocate With the Blue Bench. This is Metro's only comprehensive sexual assault prevention and support center. Prior to her role with the Blue Bench, Casey worked with survivors of intimate partner violence in both legal and residential settings. and provided advocacy to individuals and families experiencing homelessness in the Denver area. She holds a Bachelor of Social Work from Metro State University and a Master of Social Work from Colorado State University. Kasey has played an integral role in the development of the Blue Bench's post conviction programming and was the first advocate to adopt the title in Denver since It's conception in adult probation in 2019. She provides advocacy and representation of survivors of sexual harm as they navigate the complexities of their criminal legal cases following the sentencing phase. So Casey, welcome to the podcast. It's good to be here. Thanks for having me. Yeah. So obviously that was a very impressive intro. And to summarize, you in essence help survivors as they are navigating the judicial system if we were gonna. summarize a lot of what your work has been doing. Is that accurate?

Casey 1:26

Yeah. And specifically, and yeah, post conviction victim advocacy is like a mouthful way of basically saying that the, the program that I supervised and worked in supported survivors after the person who harmed them was sentenced. So we found that There was a need for that. And we can certainly go into what that looked like. But yeah, specifically after the sentencing piece of the criminal legal system.

Allison 1:49

Yeah. I mean, if you don't mind, just kind of talking through what that process means. And I guess in general, what you kind of saw in what the offender would go through and the survivor to get to that post conviction place. I think a lot of times You know, at least my understanding with at least the child said I guess I don't know the stats around adults but usually they do get the sentencing and all of it doesn't usually go to trial and Kind of what that process may be like for a survivor.

Casey 2:20

Yeah, certainly So I guess it would be helpful for my brain to start kind of like How the journey happens for a survivor and then where myself and my team would get involved in that journey. So once a district attorney's office decides that they have enough evidence to ethically move forward, or they feel like they can bring the case to court, the survivor and their family have A victim witness specialist typically hired by the district attorney's office or the prosecuting attorney's office that is responsible for notifying them about what the Victim Rights Act deems as critical stages. So they're getting updates on when court hearings have been scheduled. Sometimes they're allowed to kind of weigh in on what scheduling would benefit them, and sometimes they don't. And Essentially, any opportunity that they have to either provide input to the district attorney's office or to address the court directly. And so there are quite a few, as you can imagine, opportunities for that to happen within the criminal legal process. And what we found is that once the Somebody was found guilty or pled guilty. And to your point, most often on sex offense cases, if it's made it that far, the offender will take a plea deal. And oftentimes that's because they're looking at pretty extensive sentences in the event that they don't take a plea deal. And oftentimes I think one of the frustrating pieces for survivors is that they are allowed to provide input on what they would prefer to see that sentence look like. But it doesn't necessarily always capture what they perceived as justice or accountability. And sometimes even the charges, just the way the sentencing structure works in the state of Colorado, the charges at the time of sentencing or conviction don't necessarily capture the actual harm that's occurred. And I think sometimes that can be frustrating for survivors as well. And so at that point. typically formal systems based support falls off a little bit. So in the Colorado Victim Rights Act, there are still critical stages that occur after that. So if somebody and I will also say that I most frequently get involved in cases that are sentenced in the community. So either someone has spent time in Department of Corrections and is now being supervised by parole or was sentenced directly to probation and never And I think that's went to prison. Okay. A lot of survivors obviously have questions and concerns about like, okay, now what? Um, like they're, they're walking around the community. Where are they allowed to live? What are they allowed to be doing? What does this mean for us? Like what, who's holding them accountable? What does that look like in Colorado? There's an expectation that folks who are convicted of sex offenses are participating in treatment. What does treatment mean? And so we found that the The folks who are hired by probation departments or parole that notify survivors about those critical stages outlined by the state were only really able to tell them when somebody was going back to court if they messed up or, um, if they'd successfully completed their sentence, and sometimes that could be years of no information and no updates. And so we created a program that helped fill in all of those gaps. So survivors had a place to go to ask questions and that they had a liaison that could then go directly to the person who was providing treatment or to the person who was supervising that individual and make sure that the survivor's needs were being considered in all of the work that was being done with the person who hurt them.

Allison 5:51

Yeah. I mean, it's, it's quite a lengthy process. And I think, you know, even. As you are describing it, I think we can all empathize with the fact that survivors have no sense of what is going on in the legal system and they don't have a lawyer. You know, the offender or the person that's being charged with the crime has a lawyer, either one that they've hired or one that's been appointed to them that can talk through this process. That is saying, this is what this means. This is what this means. These are the charges you're facing. This is what it's going to look like. This judge is so and so and they typically give lenient sentences or it's kind of a hard judge. You're going to want to tuck in your shirt and look really nice. And you know, it's, there's so much given to the person that's being charged with a crime. Whereas the victim side. Is okay, I did this thing and now I'm just being told it's happening or it's maybe happening and I'll be let know. So it's just really, I think, to give context that filling in these gaps is huge for the survivor and the victim because those gaps are prevalent and no one is filling them in and that's not by We Any fault, the DA is swamped and can't fill in every gap. That's not their job either. So to have someone like you is just so critical.

Casey 7:12

Yeah.

Allison 7:13

I'll also add

Casey 7:14

that I think there's a huge misconception. A lot of what my job is, is just educating people because you don't necessarily need to know what happens within the criminal legal system until you're thrown into it. And so, um, I think there's a big misconception in the way that the media portrays the criminal legal system because they have to condense it in so quickly and it has to be sort of like all the shock value and and there's so much that goes into it. So again, no fault to anybody. But I think a lot of folks are under the impression that the district attorney's office job is Is to be their attorney to to represent their interests and while it's been my experience that the majority of district attorneys that I've worked with really do want to do right by the survivors that they're supporting the district attorney's job is to promote community safety. Their job is not to represent survivors and their families. And oftentimes the way that they tell that story to lead to what their perception of community safety is, is through the experience of a survivor, but the survivor is not the one driving the bus. And that can often feel really disappointing and really frustrating for folks who really, the way that it's always kind of been portrayed through shows like Law and Order is that like, they're going to be able to be the ones that make all the decisions. And get to decide what the outcomes look like. And again, while people do a really, I think most folks try to do a good job and a thoughtful job of incorporating that, ultimately the district attorney's office is the one that gets the final say on how they proceed on those cases. So it's not uncommon for me when I get involved after somebody is sentenced to have a survivor say, and again, I think another. Nuanced piece of this is that, like you said, I work for a community based organization, so not affiliated with any of the systems involved, which provided some flexibility around one confidentiality that survivors could talk to me about anything and unless it constituted a mandatory report, I, it would just stay with me unless I had their permission to share it.

Music 9:13

But

Casey 9:13

a lot of times when I reached out after sentencing, survivors would say, like, you're, I feel like you're the first person who actually listened to what I want

Music 9:22

and

Casey 9:23

is doing their best to try to accommodate that, which is, it's just, it's heartbreaking because there's an extra layer of trauma that can potentially come with the criminal legal system in some of these cases.

Allison 9:34

Yeah, absolutely. And, you know, I think a lot of that is, um, Is maybe what you're hitting on is this expectation piece, which is no one's fault, but if the only thing that you know of the judicial system is watching Law Order SVU, you also expect to have an Olivia Benson in your corner who's going to like champion every step of the way and just be such a understanding badass. Yeah. And unfortunately, although certain people have the hero element of Olivia in the system, they do exist, their roles and their job descriptions. Don't often come with the heroism that you see in television, and that's not anyone's fault or lack of caring or lack of wanting. It's just not what their job is. And it's I mean, same with police officers. Their job is to get information. Their job is to Investigate to gather evidence and take reports. That's it. They're not there to judge. They're not there to decide what's legitimate and not legitimate. They're just there to gather. And I think that can create a lot of confusion and frustration, especially when we think about how we feel about justice and what that means to us. And do you find that survivors Have very different opinions of justice and sort of that hero moment, I guess, for their case and what's happening. Yeah, yeah. I,

Casey 10:59

it's interesting. And it's not, I think every survivor's experience looks completely different, obviously. And so. The feedback that I have gotten over the years has been very mixed based on their experiences working with law enforcement, working with DA's offices with the outcomes of their cases. So I think another misconception is that if someone commits a sex offense, the way that movies make it look is that they're going to go to prison for the rest of their lives. And the reality is that that's not actually happening. And so to have an outcome that isn't that I think oftentimes comes with its own sense of disappointment that like maybe Like, it was something that I did as a survivor that like, I didn't prove the case well enough, which is never anything that should fall onto a survivor. I think the most strength is even just coming forward and being at a place where you're comfortable sharing your story. But I think it has the potential to make folks feel that way, where like it was their job to put someone in prison. Interestingly, I also had the misconception that that was what justice was for a very long time. My clients and the survivors that I was working with. And I think what I found for a lot of them was just this overwhelming fear that they didn't want this person to cause harm again. And they didn't want the, the strength that they showed and the vulnerability that they showed by coming forward and sharing their experience to be for nothing and to have this person hurt somebody else, even though they came forward. And so one of the pieces that. That I did a lot of education on to is that in Colorado, I've already mentioned that treatment component. And I think that y'all have probably talked to folks who do this work, but the the value of giving someone an opportunity should they choose to work on themselves or internalize it in addition to sort of punitive. Consequences to also really figure out, like, why did I choose to cause this harm to somebody else? And how am I going to keep myself safe and the community safe and the survivor safe moving forward and not make those same choices again? And it was interesting that inevitably, because I would get involved working with survivors, maybe the day after sentencing or, you know, 10 years after sentencing, depending on the case and at some point in most of my cases that was the biggest concern for survivors was I just want them to be healthier and I want to make sure this doesn't happen to somebody else and that is, is one of the ways that that can happen is when that person has the opportunity to really do some self evaluation and get the treatment that they need.

Allison 13:40

Yeah, I mean, that's such a powerful perspective. I think a lot of times we think about. Vengeance when something bad happens that we want the person to feel the pain or feel as Bad as we were made to feel or whatever it is But when you do start to look at what is the end goal? It's like I just want this person to ultimately not hurt anyone, you know and that doesn't mean they have to be locked up restorative justice is a very Big phrase and something, you know, we're talking so much about these days What is the path towards healing that maybe prison doesn't Give us and when survivors find out that maybe their person isn't going to prison is that because, you know, to your point, it's, it's pretty rare. It happens, but you know, a person being sentenced to prison and for them to be sentenced for a long time is just not common. They might serve for 60 to 90 days, but they're not necessarily going to go for, you know, You know, 15 years or whatever we think is supposed to happen. I'm using air quotes around supposed to, but do you find that once you explain to survivors that there's this benefit side of treatment of restorative justice, that prison isn't necessarily this only road? Does that seem to resonate? Or is there https: otter. ai Frustration or heartache around that as well?

Casey 15:05

I think it's a little bit of both. And it depends on where that individual is with their healing process too. And so I'm never going to fault somebody if they're, they're at a place where vengeance is on them. But certainly, yeah. So I, I will say that like a lot of times when we start that conversation, Just to give you a long answer to that question, when we start that conversation, it's like, well, I'm going, the survivor's like, I'm going to therapy. That's not like a punishment. They get to go to therapy. Like what, what is this? Or sometimes I work with survivors who they themselves have been on probation for something. And so they're like, what, what's the difference between like this probation that I did for maybe a DUI or like, they're on it for sexually assaulting me. Like what is this? So that education component, I think, and respecting where they're at in their healing process and acknowledging the fact that trauma can, you know, you could be cruising for years and years and years and then all of a sudden it hits you and you're like, no, fuck that guy. Like it just, you know, however that comes up for them. I think the education component and empowering folks to really have a comprehensive understanding of what is actually happening, why treatment exists. what the potential benefits are because just because somebody has the privilege of being able to engage in offense specific treatment, which is what we call it in Colorado for sex offenders, doesn't necessarily mean that they're going to take it seriously. And I think that the, the providers who do that work are pretty good at catching that. But to, I think for a lot of survivors to have that person have the opportunity. To take it seriously and whether they do or not is on them and they understand that they're going to be consequences if they don't can feel empowering because it means that like if they're giving them the opportunity. To for substantive change and again to keep folks safe, whereas and again, I think everybody is doing their best the way that our our prison system is set up has the potential to cause additional harm for folks. And so essentially you have a and we were talking about kind of the process for survivors, but for offenders, you have this individual who's basically being told to deny they did anything through the entire criminal legal system until they either. You know, for those that small percent that take it to trial where they don't have to say anything through that whole process, or they take a plea deal where they're like, yeah, I under these legal definitions did a B and C that may not actually capture what I actually did. And then they're thrown into, into, for some of them, they're thrown into the department of corrections where it is in their best interest to never say what they did or never take ownership for what they've done because they will. Probably received serious bodily harm in that setting, or they're immediately sentenced into community supervision and receiving treatment. And it's not uncommon for folks to initially start in that treatment in a level of denial, because that's what they've been conditioned to be doing for the last year, two years, six months, however long the process took for them. And so it can often be. Yeah, it's it's sometimes a challenge and again that that prison setting is not always beneficial for someone to take accountability.

Allison 18:27

Yeah. Yeah. That's a really good point. And I, you know, also, and something that you said in that about what they're actually convicted with. You know, I think, again, we think that if someone sexually assaults a child, or if I rape somebody at a party, I will be charged and convicted with rape. I will be charged and convicted with assaulting a child. And back to the purpose of the DA is to find the most likely road to a conviction to keep the community safe, which doesn't always mean charging the crime Exactly as it's understood, especially from the survivor side. I think that when you read the final conviction, it's like, well, you missed, you know, five years of abuse or whatever, right? Because there's certain things in there. It's the, are we going to charge them as an adult? Maybe some of the offense started as juvenile, you know, these things all play a role. How do you help explain after the post conviction to survivors that Even though on this legal document, part of it's missing, it doesn't take away from your story or what is true. Yeah. Yeah. So

Casey 19:37

I think this is another one of those benefits of people having to engage in that offense specific treatment is that I can then come in and be like, I know at the sentencing hearing, you've seen all these movies where like the offender comes forward and is like, yes, your honor, I did. Yeah. All of this, and you didn't get to hear that at sentencing, but what I can ensure you is that if they engage in treatment, that the treatment provider is not treating them for the charges at the time of conviction. They are treating the history of problematic behaviors and abusive behaviors that this individual has, which often off like lends some peace of mind for survivors who are like, what, who cares if they're being treated for doing this because they didn't do. And to your point, like. A lot of these survivors have known this person for an extended period of time, obviously stranger assaults do occur, but for a lot of folks they do know additional behaviors that this person wasn't sentenced for, even like best case scenario, and so that is really helpful that I can then go in and say like, Oh no, like we're addressing like issues that may have like stemmed from childhood. Like those treatment providers are getting into the whole person because it doesn't that it would just be putting a band aid on something to treat them for the charges at the time of conviction. And we want to make sure that they're making substantive change. And so that happens and I think gives a lot of folks peace of mind. And for survivors who are like, I, this isn't. The what happened, allowing them space to share their stories and whatever capacity they find empowering for themselves, whether that's just with me or that's getting them connected to an opportunity where they're able to share their experiences or if we're getting them connected with a therapeutic support group so they can talk to other people who may have had similar experiences as an advocate. It's my job just to let them know what resources may exist. And let them decide which ones would be most helpful for them. And sometimes that's me giving somebody resources and them, you know, being like, great, I have these. And then six months later, maybe engaging in those, but it's, it's all about them and their timeline and whatever they need. Because so much of what happens like during an assault, during abuse and after the abuse, if you choose to report, takes so much power away. and control and autonomy away from those folks, that it is like the tenants of community based advocacy to just give that back to them and whatever they feel is most healing for them.

Allison 22:08

Yeah. I love that part. We talk a lot about advocacy and showing up for people that a dream of ours is if we could just make the world full of advocates, it would be a better place and, you know, can you speak a little bit to the. Advocacy piece because I think a lot of times I feel like we have to be trained professionals to be advocates and although yes, like it is a profession and some people do get paid to be an advocate or you do go through extensive training to be on a hotline for someone in crisis to be to give people back power that was lost is something. I think we all can do and little actions of advocacy can go a long way. Can you just maybe speak to some of our listeners, like what that could look like, especially for someone that's just outside of this process and feeling. Maybe a little powerless in that moment.

Casey 23:00

Yeah, and it's funny because yeah I'm one of those people that went to school and did all the trainings and all of the things but I just great not take away from that Truly at its core at like everybody could be an advocate and at its core it really is just Supporting people and their time of need. And I think anybody can do that just by being like, what would I as a human need in this setting and like, just offering a listening ear, especially when it comes to sexual assault, because it is An issue that has been pushed under a rug or kept behind closed doors or these like open family secrets or whatever, however, it shows up because we don't know how to talk about it and it makes folks uncomfortable because we've never been taught how to talk about it. Just, just. Believing somebody when they share their experience with you, not offering your input or opinions and just letting them have a safe space to share whatever they're comfortable sharing because you never know, this could be the first time somebody has felt comfortable enough to open up about their experience and and to provide them a space where they feel safe and without truly without judgment. is so incredibly important. And, you know, if they are able to share, like, this is what I think I, and I, I think to ask questions out of curiosity, like, what do you need from me? How can I be supportive for you taking ourselves out of the equation completely? This is not a place for like us to have opinions about things and to let that survivor again, drive the bus. Cause there are so many settings in which That that ability has been taken away from them and has the potential to then continue to bleed into other aspects of their lives. And the most useful thing that we can give back to them as a space where they feel like they have some control over what's going on for them.

Allison 24:54

Yeah, absolutely. And I think that space part is really essential for any, any survivor. Especially those that have gone through the legal process, because it feels sometimes like there's this door that was closed. Like, I did the thing. Like, I reported, uh, they got convicted, and now it's over, right? Like, I, I don't need to talk about it again. All my problems are solved. Healed. It's, yeah, like. No more trauma. It's good. Justice. Like a stamp. Justice reserved. Yeah, exactly. It's like, freedom, I'm done. Let's do it. Like. This definitely didn't impact my brain at all. Oh, nope. PTSD. What is that? No one knows. Uh, definitely not for me. Yeah, it's, it is, I got, I wish, I wish that if it was like, that's the thing. Truly, I would

Casey 25:40

love that. If I had a sticker that I could just, you know, like, here's a gold star on your forehead and now you don't have any trauma left in your body. I would, I would love that. And until that happens,

Allison 25:53

until someone invents that sticker for me. I'm gonna, I'm gonna do my best to figure that out. How do we make this happen? Cause yes, it would be so perfect and lovely if we could do that. And I think a lot of times that society interprets it as that, you know, I think that once it's survived, it's like, you did it. It's like, but it's not like high school. This isn't like graduation. It's not like I got the The A and I passed the test. It's it is this long space. And I think inherently where we slip in being advocates is we want it to be done too. And it's like, all right, case closed. The person's being held responsible and continuing to create that space afterwards. And that's in essence, your, your job, your role, right? Is your Continuing to create space for that survivor to know that this journey is keeping is keep is still going. It's not over yet. And how important is it for them to feel a part of it? You know, this is fairly new, right? Like this has only been around for

Casey 26:55

five. So we, my colleague, Lindsay Clatt and I started the program formally in 2019 when we started with the blue bench. Um, and at that time it was just sort of a, uh, The community was saying, Hey, this is something I think we could benefit from when nobody seems to know really what's going on or how to support survivors. And I applied for a job. I wasn't entirely clear. I think everybody was just like, something needs to happen and we need to change it. And so Lindsay and I said, And we were like, Hey, we'll go to a bunch of different trainings. We'll talk to a bunch of different people. We'll figure out what's actually going on. And as we started to have those conversations and connect with professionals who typically work directly with offenders, we were finding like, Oh, they want to hear from the survivor. They want to know how, like what the survivor needs out of this because they're the person that was most impacted. Like, we can certainly, like, the majority of the narrative that they're getting is from the person who caused harm, who may not necessarily have a clear understanding of the impact of their choices. And so, how amazing if we could just provide a space, because again, there is never an expectation that a survivor engages. And I will say over the years that, like, me reaching out to folks and being like, hey, I'm just calling to let you know this exists out. Some people were like, fuck, you never call me again. And it was like, not a problem. Will not, um, because I want to respect their autonomy over that. And for some people going through the criminal legal system, they're like, I never want to think about this case ever again. And that's what I need for my healing. And I'm like, okay. Absolutely. Save my number if anything ever comes up, but I'm never going to call you again. But for other people, they're like, Oh my God, thank you. Because especially in Colorado, there's a little bit of confusion around how you get notifications about your case, which also is a little bit complicated. So when you're getting notifications from the district attorney's office, obviously they need you to participate and show up. And so you don't really get a choice on whether or not they call you unless you tell them, like, please never call me again. But after that. it switches. So we recently changed it for Department of Corrections that everybody is automatically opted in. So it's the same process as the DA's office. But with probation, when somebody is in the community, the survivor is given Pamphlet initially, which as you can imagine is it's a really overwhelming time after sentencing. There's all of these emotions. You're just like ready for that phase to be done. And so they don't always know like who they're supposed to keep their contact information updated with or like who to reach out to or who's supposed to be calling them. And so they. Sometimes they fall through the cracks and you know, the, the folks who work with probation don't just work with survivors of sexual assault. Typically there's like in best case scenario, there's like two person, two people assigned to a county and they're responsible for notifying anyone who is a victim of crime, not just survivor of sexual assault. And so they don't have time to like give people 10 phone calls to make sure that they're either opted in or not opted in. And so this gives them the opportunity. It's a second way to sort of catch them to reach out and be like, Hey, these services exist. Is this helpful for you? You're more than welcome to get connected. I would work very closely with those people in probation to make sure that people are double covered if they want to be. But yeah, so the post conviction victim advocacy program. At the blue bench is the first of its kind in the nation, as far as we can tell, which is sad and very exciting. Yeah. So the what we've found through conversations with other community based organizations is that the closest that we've Come to somebody developing a program kind of like ours is in Connecticut, I believe, where they have post conviction victim advocacy, but it models very similarly to the victim services officers. I was just describing where their job is to notify around those critical stages, but may an additional stuff, but may not necessarily be able to provide that comprehensive support that community based advocates can and. Traditionally have only been available kind of like pre sentencing or just like kind of on an as needed basis, but don't necessarily understand the offender component of it. And so this, in addition to providing that traditional case management, victim advocacy, resource connection, referral kind of stuff. I would also. I would be a person who would like attend team meetings for the offender. So I would be meeting with the supervising officer, the therapist for the offender. And then I would show up and be like, Hey, what about the survivor though? Like they have, they've shared with me that they're comfortable with me sharing with the team that like, we want to make sure we're addressing all these things. Are you taking accountability for that? And so. Cool. We've found that that's really empowering for folks to, to know that they have somebody who's sitting at the table on their behalf, and that they have a voice in a place where they can't physically be.

Allison 32:08

Yeah, I mean, just hearing you describe it, like, makes me feel emotional. It's such a, a space that survivors have always deserved to be in, but it's extremely hard to be, to be in it as a survivor, like, alone and to be like, yeah, yeah, yeah. I want to give recommendations on my offender like it's that's just I'm sure there are some people that may have the ability to do that, but that's such an ask. It's too big of an ask. So to have you, this middle person that does hold the best interest of that survivor and Ian isn't getting triggered by the offender at the same time as So powerful because that voice gets to be heard clearly and directly in a way that may have felt Impossible and just was never available and do survivors when they hear back from you whether it's like they weren't thinking of that Now they're gonna work on it or whatever. It might be do they what is the reaction from survivors in that moment? What does it seem to kind of do or lead them into?

Casey 33:17

I think it feels empowering in a lot of, in a lot of cases, because sometimes I don't have good news. And they're like, yeah, I freaking knew it. Like they're, they're still up to their same old shit. But now you can see it. You get what I'm

Allison 33:31

saying, right?

Casey 33:32

Yeah.

Allison 33:32

Yeah. Yeah. There's, there is something about when like, you're like, this person's full of shit and I've known it. And you're like, yeah, they are. And it's like, yeah, I knew, I knew it. Like, just, you know, there is something. I think especially like as a survivor you sometimes feel so gaslit all the time like you're just like in this manipulation cycle and you're like, I know that on a piece of paper it's saying he's getting better, but I know he's not. So there is probably something that's just like, yeah, yeah, I knew that.

Casey 33:59

Yeah, for sure. And I think that's, that's another benefit to the way that we've structured this program and the collaboration that we've built in and that those, those victim services officers within the system are really only able to comment on compliance. So like you said, like it, yes, there. They're checking the boxes and we're allowed to share that they're checking the boxes, but the, the collaboration and the, the relationships that I've been able to build with treatment providers who have ROI assigned and may or may not be able to offer a little bit more insight and information than the traditional compliance updates that, yeah, that affords me the ability to come back and be like, Oh, I'm not doing great right now. And for people to be like, thank you. I'm glad you see it because I think. And I, so I've, I've been in this role for five years and five years previous to that worked in domestic violence spaces exclusively. And I think traditionally that safety and, and healing in that space, at least the way that I learned it was like, we keep these two people as far away as humanly possible. Like they don't know what they're saying. They don't know what they need. This is what safety is. And, and that's a lot of ego talking, I think. And like, as an advocate, it's not my, it's not my life. Like, at the end of the day, I'm, this is, this is how somebody shows up and this is who they want to be around. And how do we make sure that that happens safely. But so that was my, like, historical context for it. And, and so I would never be engaged with what was happening with the offender. And I would have no idea what was happening. I would just be there working with the survivor. But to be in this, like, weird gray space where I was with. Both working with my client, the survivor, and then having the opportunity to be like, do you really understand what accountability means and what impact means to the offender in their case? I think it offered a lot of reassurance to the survivor to be like, I'm so glad you get to see this. Like I'm so glad that you get to show up. You know exactly what I'm talking about. You know who this person is. It's not just like lip service. We're like, you know, and as advocates, like I am there to like be a hype person for a

Music 36:11

client, but I

Casey 36:12

think for them so that I can say like authentically, like, Hey, I just spent an hour with them. You know, this is what I talked to them about. And I made sure that they have a clear understanding of all these concerns that you've told me about. And that as a client, As a confidential advocate, they get to pick what I actually share with them as opposed to systems based advocates who work for those agencies that they're employed by and may not necessarily have the same level of confidentiality. The survivor gets to decide how much information the offender has, and I think that offers a lot of power too.

Allison 36:44

Yeah. That's amazing. And it's, it is just. I think a lot of times, and you know, we've said this before in the podcast, but the journey of being a victim is there is two sides of this story, and I think traditionally, like you're saying, it's been let's rip away the bad thing, and then the survivor kind of has to go on this journey of, I don't know, a cultural pressure of like, I'm supposed to hate this person, and I'm supposed to not want them in my life, because everyone's like, You're not supposed to, but there's a lot of times, you know, this person. And so there is love and there is connection. And there is something, even though you're like, I know, I don't want this person in my life and I don't want them active, but for it all to be stripped away is. really jarring, even if it's the best thing for you. And I think one thing Colorado does really well or tries to do is a process called clarification. And I was just hoping you could maybe talk a little bit about that in which these parties do get to come together and talk through some things.

Casey 37:48

Yeah, clarification is fascinating. And I will say that when I, again, like with that history of like, Oh, we just need to keep the survivor safe and safe is away from the person who caused them harm. So for me, when I started in this job and still wasn't sure what it was to find out that this process existed was mind blowing and really opened the door to a lot of things for me. So clarification is it like, um, I can, I would consider it a like a pseudo restorative justice process that is built into treatment within Colorado standards of treatment. And so, essentially, as part of that treatment process, the person who caused harm is expected to write a letter of accountability to the person that they harmed. It typically comes towards the The end of treatment because it really like there's a lot of soul searching that needs to happen before somebody is ready to even begin thinking about writing a letter like that. But if they make it that far, because it means that they bought in and they're internalizing the work and they're really learning about things. That they, they are expected to write this letter and that happens regardless of the type of crime. So we have folks who write, who may have been arrested in like a sting operation, who still write a letter to the, the persona that they were speaking with folks who have abused or who have possessed or distributed, you know, sexually abusive images, those kinds of things. They're still expected to do it too. And the letter itself, the way that it's. They don't get a whole lot. Most of them don't get a whole lot of structure. So it's, it's really like, what do you think would be important to include in a letter to the person that you hurt? And what kind of questions do you think they might have for you? And so there's a lot of reflection. There's a lot of draft revisions and the, Part of my job is reviewing these letters, right, so even with the best of intentions, even with all of the treatment that they're receiving, sometimes just putting your heart on the page has the potential to be triggering in a way that maybe the person who caused harm wasn't intending, and so there's an expectation that That a victim representative is reviewing these letters before they go directly to the survivor. In best case scenario, we are in contact with that survivor already, and we know what they're looking for so that we can take that lens and just make sure that any questions that they have are included in that letter, because it may be the first time that they're able to hear the letter. this person take ownership for what they did, or I've heard from them since sentencing. And so the, the big questions that it addresses are like, why, why did you make this choice? Was it my fault? I think a lot of survivors have that like sort of internalized blame. So making it very clear that this was a choice that they made. What have they learned to help make sure that they don't do this in the future? So that big question of like, are they going to keep doing this? And then any specific questions that the survivor may want addressed. And so those letters are kept on file. I think, again, historically, victim advocates were not aware that offenders were writing these letters because we're like, oh, well, we're here to support the survivor, so we don't care what's happening over there. And that sort of like adversarial perspective on this work, honestly, we like. It doesn't, it doesn't really help anybody, especially when the survivor actually wants to know how that person is doing or wants to know if they're taking accountability. So that's been a big, that's one of my soap boxes is like, Hey, victim advocates in Colorado, these letters,

Allison 41:21

please get them and read them. Yeah.

Casey 41:24

Yeah. And if a survivor wants them, let's figure out how to get it for them. And so they, they are kept. And, and so part of my job is to facilitate. That getting to the survivor. And so obviously, in most of these cases, there's a protection order that's in place. And so it requires a modification. But I typically request that the, the probation just handles that because there's no point if like the whole, the whole reason we're modifying the protection order is so this person can get this letter and hear from this survivor. individual for the first time. If we're forcing a survivor to then do all of the legwork to go into court and have to see that person. So, so we try and take care of all of those logistics on the back end so they don't have to do that. And then it's my job to make sure that the survivor has whatever supports they think would be most helpful for them when they receive that letter. And I will say a lot of the folks that I work with are like, Oh, I'm good. And I'm like, I, I, it's never my job to say like, yeah, you're like, you definitely need to be in therapy to receive this letter, which I think is how people used to approach this work is that like, we can't trust survivors to know what's best for them. And so we need to make sure that they're in therapy and that they're ready to receive it. And all of those things. things, but as an advocate, it's my job to say like, Hey, I want to talk through all the potential outcomes, but ultimately you get the final say on what works best for you. And so for some people that's, I give them the letter and they read it on their own. And then we schedule a followup call and we talk through any feelings that may have come up for them to make sure that they know that they've got somebody there. Sometimes they read it with a family member. Sometimes they are in therapy and, and that's what they want. But they are allowed to receive that letter in whatever capacity they think is appropriate. And then depending on how they feel about that letter, they get to decide what comes next. So they can respond, um, either written or we can set up a session for them to meet with the person who harmed them to have their questions answered. And sometimes those sessions are. And in the restorative justice spaces, typically those are referred to as like a high impact dialogue or a victim offender dialogue, but, but I've had folks who go into that space with the sole intention of saying, like, I want to say my piece, I want to make sure they understand the impact of the harm, and I never want to see this person again, but I do want an opportunity to have this conversation. And for other people, it's, hey, this this person was a family member who I still like they hold two identities for me. One, they They sexually abused me and, but they also are someone that I love deeply and care about and want to have in my life just in a safe way. And so those are called reunifications. And that would also be something that I help facilitate is like, how do we move forward with very clear ground rules and, and boundaries set. And we do a lot of prep work around what that looks like so that those two people can have whatever relationship the survivor is comfortable with, but that it's done safely moving forward.

Allison 44:23

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's all amazing. And I think what when I was listening to you talk, what just kept coming to me was that this is about rewriting the narrative that it was somehow their fault. And the only way you do that is by trusting they get to make mistakes and it doesn't end in violence. And so a survivor can say, Oh, I thought I wanted you in my life. No, I don't. Right. Like, I, I get to, you know, I get to be a person who chooses things and begin to learn and to trust that if legitimately this person has taken ownership and is saying it wasn't my fault and they're not going to cause harm, then I get to feel these feelings. I get to be in these spaces and harm will not happen. And I want to feel that even if it's Reading a letter or being in the shared space. It doesn't I think matter it's about relearning that narrative of this is truly not my fault and I only get to and for some I think that comes through this process of Reading these letters or hearing those things and then deciding like didn't love that or I have really hard feelings But you know what? I'm gonna figure that out too, right? It's just that true You It's, this is you, it's your life, live it and, and know you're safe, you're protected. If you want the support, we're here, if you don't, we also understand, you know, that's such an important piece.

Casey 45:52

Yeah, a hundred percent. And like we talked about earlier, like, uh, as a, as a professional who like reviews these letters and is part of this process and can see, like. can see from talking to maybe the offender's therapist, the amount of growth and change and healing that they have done. And that like the reassurance that they likely will not make those same decisions in the future because they've gotten the therapeutic support that they needed. And then to take the letter to the survivor that I've been working with. Sometimes when survivors receive those letters, they're like, this is bullshit. This is, there's still the same old person. I feel like this is not. This is not authentic. And they're like, nevermind. I got, I got the answer that I needed from receiving this letter. That is their truth. And I am here to hold all of those truths and respect all of those needs. And that has happened to me quite a few times, too, where I, I, I am hearing from the professionals working with the offender and meeting with the offender and seeing like things, it feels like there have been tangible things that have changed. And also if my survivor is like, I still feel like this person is full of bullshit, then I absolutely respect their perspective on that. And so, and sometimes that is the healing that they needed to be like, I gave them the opportunity. They weren't able to, you know, meet up to what I, what I needed. And I'm good, right? I think the other piece too is that like, not necessarily in those scenarios, but for the ones where folks are finding healing from this process that like, I can tell a survivor it's not their fault 9 million times every time I get on the phone with them as an advocate, but to hear it from the person who actually like, you know, maybe groomed a situation or was manipulating the environment or doing all of those things. They're the ones that know, like, can really say it and it. it to be felt, I think, in a more impactful way for survivors because they're the ones that were responsible for it. And to finally hear that being said, like you said, like sometimes it just feels like you're being gaslit the whole time. Right. To finally hear it from the person who was also there means more than, I think, having this random advocate lady on the

Music 48:06

phone be like, it's not your

Allison 48:09

fault. Yeah. I mean, it's, it's such an important thing for us to always message repeat, but it, yeah, it just, it, Obviously, it feels different coming from the person that did the thing because at the end of the day, it wasn't your fault, it wasn't your choice, it was their choice, but when you've been groomed and manipulated and lived in this sort of Crazy alternate universe that they made you were made to believe it was your fault and that this was based off of You and your actions and the things that you did So they're kind of the author and the creator of that world And it's just a little bit helpful when the author and creator says I did make that world I made that world to make you feel like you were it was all your fault I did that and I'm, I'm sorry. And that's all, that's me. That was a hundred percent of my choice and it just does feel different. You know, it's hard to duplicate that in advocacy or, or even in other scenarios. I mean, we have an offender story in our exhibit kind of for that purpose. So that if you've never been able to go through the digital process, you can kind of hear from. an offender talk about what they did and being held accountable. And there are plenty of people that hear his story and are like, fuck that guy. He is not better. I hate him. And I'm like, great. Hate him. Like, like, that's the point. I want you to have this opportunity to If you don't know where your anger can go, have it go to him. That's fine. You know, and that's just part of the healing process, I think.

Casey 49:38

And I also want to backtrack a tad bit and say that, like, just because it can feel really impactful for the person, the actual person who made those choices, caused harm, or, and caused harm, to say that they, That it's not the survivor's fault. I do not want to discount the how powerful it is to be surrounded by a support system that is also reiterating that message. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So while there's so much value in that, there's also sometimes value in, in having the, the, the author of that harm take that ownership too. But I think healing can come from all of those different places. And so definitely want to, Yeah, yeah, yeah. Absolutely. You spoke to that, but I also wanted to be like, that's not, that's not discounting how impactful it can be to just have loved ones say like, this is not your fault and I believe you.

Allison 50:27

Yeah. And honestly, it's. It sometimes is something that just has to be said for the rest of your life as I mean even when you've had that moment and that that you might feel like you're standing in the Sun because you're this person's taking Responsibility and it's so great and then five years later It doesn't feel that way and you need that community to remind you and uphold you and you know it this is nothing in Life, nothing, and healing is binary, right? And I think we struggle with that. Like, it's everything is two sides of the same coin. And that's why and is the most powerful word in the world, because it combos up things where this truth and this truth get to be true at the same time. And we don't love that as people, but It is true. I'm just part of it. Yeah. Amazing. Well, I guess to kind of take us out with speaking of community and all those things, there are so many people that unfortunately don't get to go through this process and don't see justice that in this very specific stereotypical way of the justice system for those folks that may be listening. What do you say to them that Empowerment and finding this for yourself is, is possible and it's there for you and how could that look for those who haven't reported, which is, is completely fine and normal and very, very common. So I want to normalize that too, and that there's still paths towards justice and healing. And what would that maybe look like for people?

Casey 51:58

Yeah, absolutely. So, and I can speak for the organizations that I know exist in Colorado, and I, I know that these exist all over the place, but I will say that the program that I run is very Nuanced in that it's the only one within the organization where someone like inherently had to report at some point and it had to go through the criminal legal system, but the majority of sexual violence resource centers are very much geared towards folks who are either not sure if they want to report or have reported and maybe their case didn't end up moving through the criminal legal system for whatever reason. That services and supports are still available to you because statistically that happens so much more frequently than a case resulting in a conviction. And we want to make sure that you have access to the supports that you need and that you have access to the information that you need to make an informed decision regardless of what that ends up looking like for you. I know I'm like sharing deep information probably at the 11th hour of this. I am also a survivor who I chose not to report. And that was the best scenario for me and what I needed for my healing. And I years, years and years and years later still don't regret the decision that I made around that. And I, Think that having a sense of community and having supports and having access to information about what worked best for me is what helped with my healing process. And so knowing that you're not alone and that you have folks out there who very much care about your well being and care about you being able to seek healing in whatever capacity that means for you is what it. What this advocacy space is built for and to know that again that you're you're not alone And that you don't have to process through this by yourself.

Allison 53:53

Absolutely. I love that and we will I mean also on our website We have a resources page which does list resources Both in Colorado, California, and nationally. So I will list those at the end of this episode as well, just so that you can click on those, but please know those are available. The blue bench is wonderful, such an amazing resource for people. And they do have a, you know, a hotline. They've so they've groups. There's so many things the blue bench does. So if you are wanting to find that community and space where you'll be believed and heard and upheld as survivor at the blue benches is one of the best. So. Definitely reach out if that's needed. Casey, thank you so much for being here. I cannot thank you enough. This conversation was lovely and I'm just so grateful that you gave us your time. Yeah,

Casey 54:38

no,

Allison 54:38

I

Casey 54:39

appreciate being here and and really enjoyed getting the opportunity to chat with you.

Allison 54:43

Yeah. Thanks. All right. Thanks everybody We'll see you next time