The Power of Advocacy: Fighting for Survivors with RAINN

Welcome back to another season of the Breaking Silence Podcast!

In our first episode of 2025, we were able to connect with Zoey, the Policy and Grassroots Coordinator at RAINN (Rape, Abuse & Incest National Network). Zoey shares insights into RAINN's multifaceted efforts to support survivors of sexual violence, including their operation of the National Sexual Assault Hotline and their advocacy work throughout the country on both local and federal policies. The discussion brings us into critical issues such as the backlog of Sexual Assault Nurse Examiner (SANE) tests, the impact of deepfake technology on survivors, and the importance of accessible healthcare for those affected by sexual violence. 

We hope this episode inspires all of us to take meaningful action in our communities: promoting justice, expanding access to support, and paving a clear path toward healing.

If you or someone you know has experienced sexual violence, RAINN’s National Sexual Assault Hotline offers free, confidential, 24/7 support to survivors and their loved ones in English and Spanish at: 800.656.HOPE (4673) and Hotline.RAINN.org and en Español RAINN.org/es. You can also learn more about their policy efforts at https://rainn.org/policy

Transcript

Allison 0:00

Before we get into this conversation with Zoe from Rain, we wanted to just remind folks of some amazing resources that RAIN offers to anyone that has experienced sexual violence rain's. National Sexual Assault Hotline offers free confidential 24 7 support survivors and their loved ones in English and Spanish at 1-800-656-HOPE or. 1-800-656-FOUR 6 7 3 and@hotline.rain.org, and an espanol@rain.org slash es. We will of course, provide links to these resources in the description of this episode. Throughout this episode with Zoe, we will be exploring the efforts of rain when it comes to their grassroots and their advocacy work on the Hill. Although a lot of this conversation is about policy, we do get into some incidences of sexual violence and the ways that it impacts people, especially when it comes to seeing their doctor,

1:04

online. Deep fakes. Why there is a backlog in getting sane tests processed. And how we all can get involved

Allison 1:11

when it comes to making changes for survivors, so that access to justice, access to healing, and access to being able to move through what we've experienced is possible for everybody. Take your time. If you need some breaks, that's totally fine. We just hope that you'll come back. But if you can't. Don't worry, we're gonna be here. We're gonna keep talking. And just remember, you're not alone. You are believed, and we hope that you'll enjoy this episode of the Breaking Silence Podcast.

Alli 1:53

Hey everybody. Welcome back to the Breaking Silence Podcast. It's been a while. I'm joined by Zoe, who is the policy and grassroots coordinator with Rain. She's been doing this work for a little bit over two years. She's also a graduate of the University of Tennessee Knoxville. With over six years of experience and advocacy for Survivor Justice, she's dedicated to expanding access to justice, resources and care for survivors across the country. So Zoe, welcome to the podcast.

Zoey 2:21

Delighted to be here.

Alli 2:23

Yeah, of course. I mean, I guess to kinda kick it off a little bit, can you give us a little bit of context as to what Rain is and does, obviously you and I are very familiar with this incredible resource, but if you can kind of just let our listeners know. What rain is, how they can maybe access it, and of course why you all do some policy work.

Zoey 2:43

Yeah, absolutely. So Rain is the largest anti-sexual violence organization in the country and we run the National Sexual Assault Hotline. Um, I'm obviously on our public policy team, so we work on pushing bills all over the country that are going to support survivors and then give them the resources they need. We also do other things like we have a communications department that does education for the public. We have a consulting department. We have our comms team also does consulting for different movies, TV shows to make sure that they have an accurate portrayal of what sexual violence is. Really anything that touches a survivor's life. Rain in some capacity is there and helping out.

Alli 3:24

It's a big deal. Rain does a lot and has been doing a lot. You all are celebrating your 30th anniversary, right this year.

Zoey 3:31

Are. Yes, we are coming up on it now, and so we're very excited. Yeah.

Alli 3:36

Yeah. That's great. I mean, obviously as someone's been in this field for a long time, as a survivor, myself, as someone that works as an advocate, I have access to rain, been a part of rain in some capacity. It is such an incredible resource for people, whether you're a survivor or maybe you're trying to help a survivor and connect them to certain things. In your state. Rain is just a awesome resource, so we'll be sure to include a link to you all so people can go check it out. But on your side of life, the policy side, what are you all kind of working on in the policy right now? Everything's in session, so it's a very busy time for you. Yes. But you all are working on some stuff. Do you mind sharing what you're doing?

Zoey 4:19

Yeah, so. I would say people, when they do hear about Rains, public policy team, they're most familiar with the bills We get moving things, passing out a committee, things getting signed. Our day-to-day life is a lot less exciting. It is Bill drafting. It is a lot of emails. A lot of meetings connecting with legislators, stakeholders, drafting, language connect, advocate. I'm very fortunate to work on a very small but mighty team. There are only five of us and we are active in every single state all across the country. We also work at the federal level and manage a really extensive, incredible grassroots network as well. A little snapshot, and some of the things we're working on right now at the federal level, there is non-consensual intimate imagery, also known as deep fakes. This is an issue that has kind of blown up, I think, in the news and the media lately. Lots of stories coming out about people who have been victimized by this type of abuse and harassment. So we're working on a whole plethora of bills to address this issue and make sure that survivors are going to have access to justice after they experience this, but also that tech companies have to be held accountable for taking these materials down. We're also working on Boca, which is the Victims of Crime Act. It is something that funds the Crime Victim fund, which is where all of the kind of advocacy and direct resources that survivors receive at the local level, that's how they get funded. There have been some pretty steep cuts to Boca, and so survivors and these services are suffering, and so we're trying to enact some legislation that is going address that gap and make sure that these programs can stay funding and not miss a beat. State level, we're working on an issue around immunity, so a lot of survivors fear reporting because they don't wanna get in trouble for drinking underage or using drugs at the time of their assault, and so they just don't go to the police at all because they don't wanna be punished for this action. They took around the time of being sexually assaulted. So we're looking to provide immunity for these survivors when they go to report sexual assault. So you know, they're not gonna be punished for these simple possession or alcohol misdemeanors, and they can still receive the support they need. We're also working on pelvic exams, so all across the country. I think this was another one that is very popular in the media is. You're going under for a shoulder surgery and you're at a teaching hospital, a doctor decides, well, I'm gonna perform a medical, like medical exam, pelvic exam, but I haven't received consent from the patient. They don't even know that it's happening. And then the survivor or the patient wakes up, they feel weird, they're not quite sure what happened and they might never know. And you know, the way we've learned about that issue is actually from medical students saying. I was put in a really uncomfortable position here where I had to perform this pelvic exam. I know the patient didn't consent to it, but this was my professor. You know, I'm trying to get a job here. I'm, I'm trying to graduate med school. They had to do it regardless. So those are kind of just a snapshot of a couple of different issues we're working on at the state level. We work on. Gosh, over 30 different issues all over the country at the federal level, probably just as many. So that's a very, very narrow look into the work we do. But just a couple of things to highlight.

Alli 7:39

Yeah, for sure. I mean, that's a lot for a team of five. Do you mind just maybe going into a little bit more? I think internet crimes is interesting. Uh, we've had a, a detective on here talk about that from the state of Colorado, but I think it is such a. It's something we all hit and touch, but it is still fairly new. And DeepFakes, they're obviously very new and the development of AI is ever evolving and allowing more access to these things. And for the most part it is difficult. I find on the internet side, two things arise. There tends to be a lack of empathy and really understanding of the impact for victims that. If you are involved on internet crime of any kind, it still does impact you and you need access to resources and you need help and to be believed in all of the things that we do with survivors that, quote unquote, don't experience it online, but the deep fake side I can imagine is one layer deeper in that confusion or lack of empathy. Can you just kind of. Give a little bit of what you all are hoping to achieve with that and what you see happening on that internet safety side.

Zoey 8:54

Yeah, I think you're totally right there. There used to be the, I mean, before the kind of emergence of, of AI and, and non-consensual intimate images or DeepFakes, there used to be this idea where if you weren't. Sexually assaulted or harassed in person, then like, you are fine. Now suddenly that's not the case anymore. This can happen to sexual violence can happen to anybody. But this, like you said, this technology aspect, being digital, it being online and you not ever actually having to be in the same room as you're a victim adds a whole new component onto it and it opens so many more people up to being vulnerable to this kind of violence. Is violence, just like being, you know, sexually assaulted, physically is violence, right? And the impacts are the same. The impacts emotionally in your edu if you're in school, in your education at work, in your personal relationships, your mental health, it like manifests the same way in how a survivor experiences violence and what their healing process looks like. And so, you know, our goal is to. Make sure we have as many protections as for survivors as possible. I said earlier that we're working on a whole number of bills in this issue area, and that's because this is an incredibly complicated issue and there are a lot of different components that go into it. And so we wanna make sure all of our bases are covered. And unfortunately, like you said, this is an ever evolving technology and the law hasn't caught up yet. So it's our job not only to react to things we're hearing about that survivors are experiencing right now, but also to anticipate what comes next. What is the next development that's gonna happen and how do we need to protect not just survivors, but everybody from this kind of abuse.

Alli 10:42

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I. It all comes down to a similar through line, no matter the violence we're talking about. And that's knowing you're safe, that yes, I'm safe online, I'm safe at work, I'm safe at a medical office, I am safe, and I have agency over my story, over what I exist in or what I don't exist in. And I think that's. A good summary of deep fakes because yes, it's not necessarily you involved in this direct way, but it's you and it's designed to take who you are and have you not be in control or consenting to what is taking place. And that is the core of sexual violence is, is removing that consent piece or that safety element to it at all.

Zoey 11:31

Yeah, and I think the other thing that kind of alludes to this, when talking about anticipating what comes next, but as this technology gets more advanced, it's going to be so much harder to identify what is real and what's not real. There could be a video, an image out there that you can't tell, like if it's AI created or not. And so, you know, even going that extra step of saying, okay. Regardless of whether or not you can identify if it's ai, you still need to be able to get this removed and you still need to be able to hold your perpetrator accountable. And so, you know, we also see this with just non-consensual, intimate images that aren't AI generated, that are like legitimately taken by a perpetrator and then shared without the consent of the person in the image or the video. And when you have AI that you can't tell. If it's real or not, those people then fall into that bucket of, okay, well you have to assume this is real. So we need protections there too, because you have a whole category of people then who have been victimized in person and victimized digitally, and there's no way to tell them apart. And so that category of people needs protection as well.

Alli 12:41

And I think when we talk about policy, you know, to simplify it at its core, is to ensure that there's paths for people to know that justice and accountability is accessible. And so policy is there. These measures that you all are talking about is if there's no path for justice, you can't get it. There's not, if there aren't laws, if there's not protections, if there's not resources. When these things are going on, there's nowhere for you to go. You can't go to a police officer and file a report on something that isn't technically criminal yet. So correct me if I'm wrong, but that's probably a big piece of this is really defining what these are and ensuring that path exists.

Zoey 13:25

No, that's absolutely it. And I think that is kind of a mentality we take into every bill and everything we work on is even if it's a very narrow group of people, like let's say there was one person that was denied justice because of this, that is still, I. More than enough for us to say, okay, well there needs to be a law in place so that this person can pursue justice and it doesn't happen again. So it doesn't matter if there are 10 people experiencing it or a million people experiencing it. Justice is such a critical part of the healing process and giving survivors a choice in what they want to do next. That. You know, the law has to be there for them and it has to protect them, and it has to be able to allow them to have options and make a choice that is going to be best for them in that moment.

Alli 14:12

Yeah, absolutely. How do you navigate, I think this crosses over a little bit between the pelvic exams and the deep fake world. A little bit is a lot of times these survivors may have to be. Hold that something happened to them. They don't have Yeah. Awareness necessarily. How are you all thinking about or working through, like how do we do that in a way that helps the survivor feel supported? Doesn't necessarily crash a world in this really like trauma way. You know, it's gonna be traumatic and people deserve to know what has happened. Absolutely. But are, you know, is there a balance in how we kind of approach these two specific areas?

Zoey 14:54

I definitely think like a huge component of this is being trauma informed. Obviously if you have somebody go to tell a a survivor that they have been sexually assaulted and they weren't aware of it, then that is a conversation that has to be treated very sensitively. And we work pretty frequently on expanding trauma informed training for law enforcement officers because we see the impact it has on. A survivor after, you know, after they engage with the criminal process or after they go through an investigation or report to the police or whatever it may be. If they feel like they were heard and believed in that moment, then it makes their healing process so much smoother, honestly. Mm-hmm. And. I think that is a really key component of what you said, of obviously the individual should know what happened to them and, and have the ability to like make that decision and of what comes next, how they wanna process it. But it needs to be handled with such a high level of care so that you're not further traumatizing the individual aside from them learning, you know, what they experienced.

Alli 16:01

Yeah. And that I think trauma informed care has. Become more in like the common language that people hear these days. And I think just to maybe reiterate them, can you kind of talk about if I was to find something out, maybe it's about a loved one, or maybe the doctor tells me, you know, Hey, we discovered this about your partner, and we would, for whatever reason, the doctor doesn't wanna tell the patient they wanna tell me, and I have to have this very difficult conversation. What would a trauma informed approach look like in that moment for people that may have to do this that aren't trained on it necessarily?

Zoey 16:43

Yeah, I mean, I think a big part of it is going to be meeting the person where they are, what emotions they're experiencing, what they need, what they're asking for, even just like. Like you said earlier, just saying like, I believe you, I support you. Whatever you need is such a huge component, but I also think it's more than just that first moment of you telling somebody it's what comes after as well. Is there support for that person? That's going to be long-term. Obviously, the healing process for survivors can. Vary so significantly in, in how long it, it's not a linear process either. Um, and making sure they have access to the support they need and that they have somebody that they feel like they can trust is going to be huge. And obviously, you know, when you're having a conversation with a survivor about what they experienced, you never want to be placing blame or even like asking questions that. A survivor might not be ready to talk about in that moment, but I, like I said, it really just goes back to meeting the individual where they are. What do they need emotionally for them to be able to begin healing?

Alli 17:55

Right. I think of it oftentimes as grief in a way. I guess that when I've lost people in my life in, in sort of traumatic ways, and there's never an easy way to come up to a family and say, Hey, this person that you loved is gone. It's this very overwhelming piece of information to get, but. You still deserve to know it. You still get to have it. And it's treated in a way of this is just step one of many, and you get to feel however you need to feel and no one tries to fix it. Right? It's bad. It's just a bad thing that has happened. And you feel that. You feel the magnitude of it. And I think so much of the time with survivors, we want to change the magnitude. We wanna make it lesser or bring the temperature down, and it's kind of. Not that we shouldn't do that, that's not what we need to be doing because that's not what this is. It's not easy, simple, or direct. It's a process that needs a lot of care.

Zoey 18:57

Yeah, and I mean like grief, I mean, honestly like any kind of negative emotion, if you allow yourself or in this situation allow your loved one to deal with it how they need to in that moment with whatever kind of emotions they're feeling, then. In the long, it's going to be so much better of a process for all parties involved. Like I said, like with any emotion, you don't wanna bottle it up and let it explode. It's better to allow. The survivor to do what they need to do in that moment to take care of themselves, and that's all we should be focused on

Alli 19:31

for sure. Yeah. We've talked a lot about emotions and when I think about policy, I think about them being very emotionless. So when you all are approaching something like trauma-informed care or trying to put policies in place that. I would imagine always have an emotional element to them. When we're talking about something that is emotional, how do you present those in the work that you're doing on the policy side and sort of balance what often feels very black and white with something that tends to be a little more nuanced because it is so personal.

Zoey 20:06

I think, you know, one of the big things that I think our team does really, really well is every step of the process from identifying an issue, drafting a bill, introducing it, testifying for it, getting it passed. The survivor experience is really centered in every step of that process. The issues we decide to work on are issues that either survivors have. Issues we've seen in the system ourselves. And then we take those and we, we make laws out of them. And I think you're right, policy is typically seen, like you said, as as very black and white. It's something that, you know, doesn't have a lot of wiggle room for their, for it to be messy or confusing. But I think that it, it is always our priority to bring survivors into that space. So when we have a bill up for a hearing. We're looking for survivors to come testify. And I think that survivors really personalize it in a way that for a lot of legislators, I, I think really does make a difference. It's so much harder to say, well, this bill isn't needed. You have a survivor right in front of you saying, no, actually this bill would've changed my life in, in all of these different ways. And so I think that is one aspect that really personalizes it in a way that. Not only gets bills passed, but allows survivors to kind of take a new step in what healing means for them speaking out publicly in a lot of cases, actually getting a bill path that is going to make their lives or other people, other survivors like them's lives different and I think. Not only is that really incredible to watch as somebody who cares a lot about policy, but from even other survivors realizing like, oh, I can do that too. Like I can go work on a bill in my state that is going to impact me and then hopefully see it get passed is

Alli 21:57

really, really powerful. Yeah, it's super powerful. It is sort of that there's many ways to feel your power back going through something like sexual violence. I think that's one of many, but I think it's also just a good reminder where in the early days of a new administration and it feels like there's a lot going on. I think sometimes when there's so much going on, it tends to feel like our voices don't matter. And in your experience that. Isn't necessarily true and maybe just a reminder to folks to keep raising your voice and sharing your story. 'cause it is getting heard. Even if it feels a little jaded on the media side, I think those voices still land. Even if the outcomes are what we want. We get to keep fighting and we don't know what that could change for people down the road.

Zoey 22:49

I mean, the thing is, is all across the country in every single state and at the federal government, there are advocates there fighting for survivors. Obviously RAIN is there, we're working in all of these different places, but I mean, we should have to a hearing last week, and there were a number of other people who testified that we had. No idea of survivors organizations. And I think every time I go and I, we are watching a hearing virtually or we're there in person. Seeing all of the people that want to show up and be there for survivor survivors of sexual violence is incredible, and survivors shouldn't feel alone right now. There are people fighting for them, people fighting for the things that they care about, and that's not gonna stop it. We are going to be there and we're going to be supporting survivors regardless.

Alli 23:33

Yeah. And that's amazing. It's so important. If I am someone that wants to know about these things, how do I learn about a bill? Maybe I wanna be involved with, or a group I wanna join, or how do I kind of, I think a lot of times it feels like, where's the access point to these types of things. Do you have any advice or, or places people can go on that?

Zoey 23:57

Yeah, I. The lowest level I think is probably like at the state level, I think is going to be your state coalition. They are incredible resources, honestly, and they have so much knowledge about the intricacies of your, the laws in your state, and also how to plug in to a network full of a bunch of other survivors that are just as passionate as you are. So I think that is a really good local like state level. Place to engage. I think if you're a student finding other student groups who, maybe they're not necessarily focused on survivor issues, but there is, uh, intersection between survivor issues and whatever this club is, I think that's a really great place to start for students at the national level. Obviously RAIN does a lot of work at the federal level and you know, you can always follow along with what we're doing by going to the rain org policy page. We try to keep people apprised of the movement happening on our different bills or, you know, if we need outside external support or a hearing or to help give a bill a final push to passage. So I think those are all, all really great places, but I also think like it doesn't have, be formal, a really formal thing if you have survivors in your community. You all can literally just get together and if there's a bill happening at the state level or at the federal level that you care about, get together and, and make some calls, write some letters, draft some emails to legislators. It doesn't always have to be, like I said, a super formal thing. If you care about it, if you've got friends who care about it, then it's as simple as it really picking up the phone and, and calling an office to say, I support this bill. I'm a survivor. Here's why it's important.

Alli 25:37

And I think it's inside of that is just a reminder that your voice matters and can and does create change. You know, when you think about some of the policies you've seen come through, I mean, I know this to be true, but oftentimes, and maybe you can share a story of. One survivor voice comes forward and an entire policy or law or statute is changed because of that voice. And sometimes they testify, sometimes they don't. I mean, there's a lot of times that survivor's not even named, it's just that they push their narrative forward and. I think along the way have immense amount of support are believed, all of these things. But if you have like a story that I think people could hear and resonate, be like, oh, okay, like my story is similar to that. I can also share it and it could create change or it matters, even if that's the takeaway. I think that's such an important piece of this, is believing and knowing our stories have immense power to them.

Zoey 26:42

This is always my favorite thing because we have had so many survivors that we work with that I will wholeheartedly say are the reason we have gotten legislation path for even moving. We're working with a survivor in Virginia on one of our bills who is incredible and has worked tirelessly to get a bill path. I've worked with a survivor out of California, who is now took what she experienced, made a bill out of it, and is now running it in a ton of different states. We got a bill passed and signed into law somebody who reached out to our policy email with an issue saying, is this something, if it's, I'd love to take charge on it. And then we got that bill passed. People think that what they experience is not able to turn into policy or not important enough to put a bill into drafting, and that's not the case. If you've experienced it and you think that there is something institutionally or you know, policy-wise that needs to change, you should call up your representative and say, Hey, this happened to me. What can we do here? What can I do to prevent this from happening to other people? That is really powerful. And like I said earlier, there is nothing that gets a bill moving, like personalizing it, putting a face behind that bill number. So,

Alli 27:59

yeah. Yeah, absolutely. That's amazing. And I hope, you know, it's true. Like we can, our stories have power, right? And how we share them and what it looks like is different for every person. But I think just knowing that. Standing up and just speaking to what you have gone through and the impacts of it can, it does and has changed things for that individual and for so many other survivors, and it builds that community. Right. I think that's one side of policy that gets missed is policy is a community driver. It's about, yeah, looking at the problems inside of a community, whether it's at the state level, the federal level, and saying. We as a community are standing behind something and if there's feelings of aloneness or loss or I don't know what to do, policy can be a really powerful place to go because of that community side.

Zoey 28:52

Yeah, and I mean, the number of times we have had additional survivors come forward or you know, we're talking with the legislator staffer and they disclose because of whatever issue we're working on. When people see that. There is something that the legislature can, my state legislature or the federal government cares about and is doing something about, it encourages other people to come forward, not only to realize like, Hey, I can do this too. Um, but like you said, it, it builds a community. It allows you to feel like you're not alone. And I think that is probably one of my favorite byproducts of the work we do is, is seeing people realize like, okay, like I, I can do this. And also. I've found people around me that are going to support me through this.

Alli 29:37

Yeah, absolutely. And that's, it's a really powerful piece and I think we can all kind of decide and find what makes sense for us. You know, I think that what is and has been an ongoing issue in which people. Well, at least I think people know they can talk about more now, is the backlog that's happened with rape kids and really pushing the narrative. There's films about it and documentaries about it. I'm pretty sure Law and Order SVU has done many episodes about it, right? This is a topic that I think Foley has come to the forefront because of community effort and because of survivors coming forward and saying, there is no reason for this. To have been sitting in an evidence locker, never tested. And what does that effort look like now? Is it something people can still get involved with? Where's that side of things?

Zoey 30:32

So the rape kit backlog issue is, I think you hit it right on the head of, this is something that I, I think a lot of people really care about. I do think that people sometimes struggle to realize what exactly getting a rape kit done means for a survivor. There there's kind of this idea of like, oh, like the rape kit backlog is really bad. Yes, but they don't actually, they can't actually understand what it feels like for a survivor in that moment. And I mean, you know, you're undergoing an incredibly invasive exam very shortly after, one of the worst moments of your life. And the promise is, is that if you get this rape kit done, you are gonna. But then it sits on a shelf. It's lost. It's thrown away. It's destroyed, and you then lose the possibly the best opportunity you have to have justice, and even if it's not destroyed or lost, if it sits on a shelf for too long, then your statute of limitations can run out and you still don't get justice. So Rain Works has worked for many years on this issue. Rape kits are such a key part of giving survivors options and choices and time to decide what they want to do. But the rape kit backlog takes that choice away from a lot of people. And so we work, you know, like I said, we worked for a number of years on this, and I think one of the things we're working on this year in regards to it at the federal level is to get funding for it. Every year we go back and we ask for, you know, money to be appropriated regarding the Debbie Smith DNA backlog grant, um, which provides funding to a lot of labs to actually test. The documentaries, the TV shows, the, the public conversation about it is really critical, but it's also really critical to show up for the solutions that are going to address the problem. And sometimes that's not the most glamorous thing. Obviously talking about federal appropriations isn't something I think a lot of people like to do in their free time, but it's what's going to address that problem. I know we've also worked on a number of different state laws to address it as well, to help the procedure around the handoff of rape kits, funding for the testing. So there are a lot of different avenues to plug into advocacy around that. Obviously, like I said, at the federal level, numerous different states have laws that have either been implemented or laws they're working on that are, or bills they're working on that are hopefully going to at least put a dent in this problem for their state.

Alli 33:02

I agree with you completely that we have to really understand, I think, to wanting to get involved to understand why change is so necessary is to look into and to really ground yourself in what it means to have to go through this experience as a survivor. The courage it takes and how scary and alone you are, and you know how truly invasive it is. If you can think of going to the doctor and having a very invasive, very personal exam, that's in essence what a rape kit is Times. A thousand. 'cause they're also collecting DNA off of your body. So it is a very difficult process and I think for us to want to change something, we have to understand the effort that someone went through that is so full of hope. You do this because you believe it will mean something. And maybe not to your case, maybe to a bunch of cases. Right? You hear that story that maybe this is the. To solving this other case as well. And I think that's for the good of all is such a motivator in those moments. And to have it just be put aside is so heart wrenching and I think should motivate all of us to want that to change because it's, it is a big deal.

Zoey 34:14

No, I totally agree. Like, like I said, it's survivors were initially victimized when they were sexually assaulted, and when you know, you get that call that your rape kit was lost or destroyed or you go to pursue justice and you can't, then you are victimized all over again. Except this time it's by a system and not by an individual. And there's honestly something I think, in a lot of ways. More insidious about that. 'cause like you said, it takes that hope away of, okay, I'm assaulted, but I can still have justice. Yeah. And this backlog, you know, robs you of that choice.

Alli 34:51

Right. Yeah. And I think you also mentioned something else that's a key element of this, which is the statute of limitations as a very complex topic because it's different for every state. It's such a, it's not. Well known. There's a lot of stipulations around it that change it, but you know, I think on that side too, these kind of go hand in hand. So if you are interested in being involved, even looking at what. I'm guessing you all are probably working on some policies in the country around statute of limitations, what that looks like. Can you kinda speak to that too? Why these things are so crucial in that sense?

Zoey 35:30

Yes, you are totally right. Statute of limitations are, it's an incredibly complicated. That has a lot of nuances. There's SOL statute of limitations at the estate level, different for every state. There are also some at the federal level, they interact weirdly. Sometimes it can be a really difficult thing for a lot of survivors to navigate. That being said, I think. There is an incredible importance for advocacy, expanding statutes of limitations and not just criminal statutes of limitations, which I think is kind of where people's mind normally goes. But there are also civil statutes of limitations. We think both should be expanded. In a perfect world, there wouldn't be statutes of limitations because we don't think there should be any kind of timeline for justice. We should allow survivors to pursue justice when they are ready. We are well aware now at this point that every survivor takes different time to heal, different times to come forward. There are a lot of factors at play for when a survivor decides to say, this happened to me, and we think the law should reflect that, but at minimum we think that these should be expanded out. There are a lot of states where the statutes of limitations are 1, 2, 3 years, and that is not nearly enough time for a survivor to be able to process the trauma they went through and then be able to come forward and say, I wanna hold my perpetrator accountable, either criminally or civilly. But it's a tough issue and we do work on it in a number of different places, but. It is incredibly, incredibly difficult when a survivor says, I can't hold my perpetrator accountable because my rape kit wasn't tested in time, or my statute of limitations are up. Or what's even more wild about it is you can have a survivor that one day after their statute of limitations expires, decides they wanna come forward and they can't. And like you said, people just don't know about them. They're not common knowledge, and even if you do try to look it up, it's, you're probably gonna be more confused than before you looked it up. So it's a tough thing and, and it's another way that kind of discourages survivors from ever saying anything at all, because they don't. They feel like, well, justice is never something I'm going to get. Mm-hmm. 'cause if it's not the rape kit backlog, it's the statutes of limitations. It's the victim blaming, being re-traumatized during interviewing. It is another factor that can prevent survivors from ever coming forward.

Alli 38:03

Right. And so much of the work that you all do is to try to mitigate that. Right. It's the how do I decrease? These barriers to reporting, to going through the process. And it's also important to know, you know, obviously so much we're talking about is complicated and it. The coalitions are there that can help you navigate that. If you have questions or advocates that can answer so many of these questions for your state or what is going on, if you just wanna find that information out, which I think so many of the times survivors just want access to that to know, do I wanna go forward or do I not? And so just reminding people that there are agencies and resources that can walk you through any question you might have about any of these sides of things and that. Change is being worked on as well. So,

Zoey 38:54

yeah. And I also think one thing we see pretty frequently is when a survivor comes forward publicly, other survivors might disclose to them as well. And so I think even having that knowledge and being able to share it with other people, whether you're a survivor, yourself, an advocate, even just like a family member, a friend, being able to have that information and then share it when it's. A huge difference. Especially because survivors don't want to go and look through like their state's code website or Right. Or any kind of like legal website. They just want have a straight answer. When do I have to come forward by? And like you said, state coalitions are such an, such a valuable resource for that. But also if you know this information, sharing it with other people in your community so that they don't even have to seek that information out on the front end. It's something they already know for if they do experience violence,

Alli 39:49

that allyship advocacy piece, you know, we say it all the time on this podcast and, and the work that we do at Breaking Silence is that the power of change, like lives inside of you to be. That well of information or to be that safe space or to be the person that walks alongside this other person that's in trauma. You're not ideally. And hopefully you are able to be that light for them in this moment. And if not knowing where and when they can get access to other resources is you can't understate the value of that. Really, truly. And I think, I hope people hear and know that. Having that knowledge can help someone. So if that's how you wanna get involved in the change of this, that is a huge step.

Zoey 40:40

Yeah. And there. Nothing too small, like truly any kind of action you can take to support survivors to kind of carry the load a little bit, you know, after they experience something is helpful. Even if to you it might seem like a very minor thing, those things can add up and they really can mean the difference on how quickly a survivor is able to take that first step after experiencing violence and.

Alli 41:08

Yeah, absolutely. That I think is the perfect message to send people out on is it is little things that add up. Even when we're talking about policy, which might feel massive, it still breaks down to little moments. And so that is so beautifully said, and I really, really appreciate you being here. Is there anything else you wanna send a message to people about or kind of add to at all before we wrap things up?

Zoey 41:36

I mean, I think to your last point, you know, one of the things that the policy team really tries to center is the fact that sometimes you need to recategorize what a win is. Obviously for us, it's really easy to say a win is gonna be passing a bill, signing into law. The big things, like I said, or I think I said at the beginning of this podcast, the flashy things. In a lot of instances, a win for us is working in a state regardless of whether or not we move a bill so that there is a survivor in that state that knows somebody is there for them. And so like you, you said it perfectly. Wins can be the little things. It can be showing up in a state, getting a bill introduced. It can be getting a bill out of committee. Whether it passes is obviously it passing is obviously great, but. When survivors feel heard and feel seen, that is so, so, so critical. And so I would encourage people listening. I know this is also back to rain as well. We talk about this all the time of recategorize, what a win for survivors is. It doesn't have to be the big things. It can be the little things too, and those are just as monumental as getting a bill passed or speaking out publicly or writing an article about what you experienced. Sometimes it is. As little as just waking up the next day and like getting your day started. So, yeah.

Alli 43:01

Yeah. And it's staying genuine to you, right? There's no Yeah. Right or wrong way to survive something this hurtful and painful, and you're not doing it wrong, you know, it's however it looks for you is the right way. So, and just know that there is space and community for all of it.

Zoey 43:22

Yeah, there is.

Alli 43:24

Exactly. That is a fake narrative and I think, you know, rain does such a great job of sharing so many stories, if that's something you're also interested in. I know it's not necessarily your line of work at Rain, but you all share a lot of survivor stories and so people are even just looking for, for that to learn more about what people go through. I know you're a huge resource for that as well.

Zoey 43:46

We really try to uplift. Survivors, all of their experiences, everything that they have gone through. Like I said earlier, there is no perfect survivor and healing is messy and complicated and confusing and not linear. And it can be all of those things. Honestly, I think they make survivors more powerful 'cause of it.

Alli 44:08

Thousand percent. I could not agree more. That is amazing and I appreciate you taking the time. I know you're so busy being here. It really means a lot, so thank you.

Zoey 44:18

Yeah. Thank you for having me. Happy to chat.

Alli 44:20

Yeah, of course. All right. Thanks everybody for joining us and we'll see you next time.