PART 2: Competing, Surviving, and Changing the Game with Shenea

As we continue our conversation with Shenea, we get to dive deeper into her experience with USA Gymnastics, the intense role that silence played in her journey, and how one of the greatest displays of love we can give is our willingness to hold people accountable.

Part 2 offers up even more roads for advocacy, what questions we can ask those who are interacting with our kids, and how she defines safety for those actively in competition.  

To learn more about Shenea and the incredible work she’s doing, visit her website: https://circuspreneur.com/

Transcript

0:01

Welcome back to the Podcast Breakers. I just wanted to send a friendly reminder that this is part two of our interview with Shanae. I hope that you really enjoy the first part of her story as she talked us through how we can keep our kids safer, whether that's in sports circus entertainment, doing films and movies or plays, whatever our kids might be interested in doing, we all can be active participants in making sure that they stay safe. In the second part, we're gonna go a little bit deeper into her story and the experience that she had with us gymnastics, and the ways that silence was really pervasive throughout her experience. Even in places where we think that things are being taken care of when we wanna manipulate power, usually the first step in that is by silence. Having that awareness, knowing what to look for, continuing to ask questions of the institutions that we interact with is so important to making sure that we stay safe and our kids stay safe. She goes much deeper into that, and I really hope that you will listen to this part of her story and continue to engage with us online in the notes, in the chats on social media, and engage with Shanae on her social media. All of those wonderful things, and of course, keep yourself safe. Take your time, do what you need to do, and if you need to take this episode in parts, please do that. We hope you enjoy this next episode of the Breaking Silence Podcast.

Shanae 1:39

You will come into spaces now where folks can pretty much get away and do whatever they want. And I know that's kind of terrifying for parents to hear. Yeah. Especially when they feel like these environments are getting so much better. But now we have. Something else to worry about. And so, you know what my work is at this point is getting, an extension of SafeSport that is safe art or safe circus, where it would be a branch of the US Center for SafeSport. And so you wouldn't feel like there's nowhere you can go if you're in a circus program, in a circus school or in a performing arts space and you think, wow, there's maybe some not great behavior going on here. There's maybe abuse happening. Where do we go? Directly to the police. Where do we go? Because the police cannot always help you or be the answer to all of your issues and all of your problems when you are in spaces where there is abuse that's happening. You know? That's why again, the US Center for SafeSport is so important because it teaches you the laws, it teaches you what are your legal rights. Any situation. And then also too, what's the legal responsibility for the national governing bodies? And I hope now that they will have the right to go in and say, what are the legal rights to this dance space? Right? To this dance studio, to this circus school, to this theater club, which again, folks think. There are these systems of guidelines and things like that, but there's not, and the more that I got into my environment with circus and in being in the circus environment and being in these different programs, the more I saw that there was a need for just as much legislation and policy as the environments that I came out of and have been advocating around for so many years now, and seeing just how important it is that I think, to me is the only way. To change these environments with a combination, obviously, of advocates and of boots on the ground. You know, that is obviously incredibly important, but there needs to be, I think, like a three-pronged approach to these environments in terms of regulating them properly because the abuse is so cunning and so manipulative, and is so smart the way that they will navigate around anything that's been put in place. And how abusers operate, they will find a way. And so that's why it's important to keep these environments evolving. You know, nothing is set in stone, whether it be policy or any kind of rules or any kind of. Bring a bit of actions because from my experiences, they just keep on getting more and more evasive trying to outsmart things that folks feel have been put in place and who could get around that. But we've seen it's definitely possible.

Alli 4:14

Yeah. And I, I think when you think about how long abuse tends, you know, here, gymnastics is a good example of abuse was taking place for. Decades of multiple people, but there wasn't roads. And it's hard to be a parent. It's hard to be a kid that's experiencing abuse and to not know where to go, what is my point of contact, to tell someone what is going on and to kind of release myself from having to know what to do, having to have the answers. Even I think as kids, you know, I'm a, I'm a survivor as well, of childhood abuse, and I was able to report my abuse because I learned in school what a mandatory reporter was. And I only learned that through helping a friend who was suicidal. But having, it was a, it became a road. I understood for the first time that if I told an adult. At the school, what was going on. They would have the answers and it was the solution. But without that information, it feels like there are no solutions. It feels like there is no path to carry forward. And what SafeSport is doing, what you're talking about creating is that road. Is it perfect? No. Are there problems within it? Of course. But we can amend something that exists. We can't amend something that doesn't. So in your process, how, how did you, and where did you end up going in reporting and how did you find that road? And obviously it's so, it's so passionate of yours because you can tell, like you don't want someone to have to find the road. You want the road to just be there. You need it. It's accessible. And again, we can change it. We can make it better once it's there. But that's so much harder to do. How did you build that road for yourself?

Shanae 6:14

Well, you know, ally, for me, in my experience, my road was, you know, it was a very sad road. And that's why Yeah. I think, you know, advocating, you know, so hard, you know, it's been, it's been a decade now because there was no road. And so even, you know, in my experience there were children that were. That we're telling adults. Yeah. That we're telling the mandatory reporters we are being abused. Like these horrible things are happening to us. Help us. Yeah. We had mandatory reporters saying, oh God, you know, not helping us hiding it, hiding the abuse and experiencing that because I always like folks to know about what my experience was like and seeing. Adults in the room not do the right thing, knowing that there were certain roads that they refused to take. Mm-hmm. And that they were doing this to children. However, again, like I said, there was not the network that there is now, there wasn't the threat because everything was being done in house essentially, right. Where they were saying, we can police ourselves. Like all of these big institutions you see nowadays that are like, ugh. We don't need to go in front of Congress. We can handle everything on our own. Just give us more money. Yeah, give us more money and more subsidies, and then we will handle everything and then we'll put out a report that's generated by us and let you know how well we're doing. Right? Like that's essentially, you know what USA gymnastics was doing? They had all the files. I mean, they had my file. My file was a part of one of the big stories that came out. They had my file just hidden in the back because my coach had been reported for so many years. Mm-hmm. And so this was a 20 year arc of folks coming, reporting and being intimidated, losing their positions by reporting him parents saying. We don't actually wanna go to the police over this. We'd rather just take our kid out and move on with our lives. And so we know when the police came to my door when I was an adult, I was very much an adult at that point, and I had been living with this for so many years and had just told one or two close people to me. Still at that point was so brainwashed into not revealing all of these horrific, you know, things that had happened to me. And the police had to come to me because my coach was using his son's Facebook account to prey on little girls in the gym. And when they came to me. With the evidence and with the other victims. And, you know, that was my time and my decision to be the adult that I finally understood that I was. And that's a, that's a journey of a survivor when you realize I am no longer a child. I now have the power of the adult that had that power those many years ago. That, you know, children were coming to, and yet this person still was coaching. They were still traveling. Nothing happened to them. They were reported so many times. People that were considered presidents of organizations knew directly about these people and did nothing. They chose to save face. And to pay people off and to kind of throw children under the bus. And you know, I love that you always come back to this alley of, these are children. We were children. And I think sometimes it's difficult when we're retelling our stories sometimes because we're always retelling our stories as adults, right? Because like you said, reporting usually comes 10 plus years. That is, that is completely normal. And even folks now you know that are saying, well, you know, what are the numbers? And I always tell them. The numbers are never where they really are right now. Mm-hmm. The numbers are always coming 10 years down the line. So whatever, you know, stock of kids that you have right now, just know that there is a high percentage of them that may say nothing for 10 years and that I hope will continue to change with the education within these environments, you know, with organizations. Breaking the islands with the work of rain that they're doing so powerfully with the work of the US Center for SafeSport and having boots on the ground and inserted even more into, you know, into these environments. So for me, it was going undercover with the police, getting a recorded confession. It was one of the scariest experiences of my life doing that. And speaking to my abuser, David, Rick. All those years later and getting this recorded confession from him, you know, going through those, the trials and the criminal cases, and then, you know, a seven year long settlement that we, you know, just finalized against USA gymnastics and U-S-O-P-C and testifying, you know, testifying through Zoom, over the pandemic, all of these things, and learning all of these skills that I wish that I'd never known. Hmm. However, I feel like when you are thrust into living these experiences, bit by bit, you learn something that almost can't be taught. 'cause the amount of information and knowledge and experiences that I have now and reflecting and advocating for policy and going to dc which I do often, several times a year, to advocate in front along with other survivors and hearing their stories and hearing the different nuances of their stories and their experiences. That is what set me up to be the advocate that I am now and to say, when I speak to parents, have you gone to the police? Have you gone to the center for SafeSport or have you contacted an organization with rain? If you have not done any of those things, we need to talk and why? Yeah. 'cause to me that is a three-prong approach that I'm talking about. If you have not gone to the police, if you have not gone to the US Center for SafeSport, and if you have not sought out a huge, or even a small organization that. Educate and provides resources, which they are there. I would like to know why in this day and age in 2025, you have decided to not do that. If you are witnessing harm, if you suspect harm, or if you are seeking to educate yourself, to protect your child. And then also too, do you know about the policies that are in place right now that are gonna hold those spaces accountable? Because that is very important and I often hear. A lot of, you know, folks in the environments are not just talking about parents. Most people don't know any of the legislation. They don't know what the legislation was for, what it means that, you know, these institutions are legally now obligated to do. Because just because they're legally obligated doesn't mean that they do them. Mm-hmm. And we've seen that with a gymnastics and the US Center for SafeSport, where they have said, we're just so overwhelmed with so many cases, we can't abide by the law. Literally, so by the. Educating ourselves as much about this as we are about your child's bar routine and their score, the they mean is gonna be of the utmost importance. Because if you can tell me what your kid needs to get to get the nationals, but you can't tell me about any of the policies that are in place, that these people might be breaking in your face to get away with something, then that is a really big problem for me. And I don't think that you have the opportunity to say carelessly now that you just don't know and you're not educated. That at this point is a choice, and it's one for me that it comes at too high of a cost with the destruction and the disgusting behavior. I have seen perpetrated against children in youth sports and as adults, and also too in the circus and the performing arts environments that are getting. More and more out there and people are starting to share and come forward more. But it's very similar to, you know, first gymnastics, we don't need any of that, or this environment is never gonna need that, or this environment is never gonna change. We could never legislate this environment. We could never change these things. It's always gonna be the way it's always been. And I heard that my entire childhood. Even throughout the process of us coming forward with our stories, people were, were telling us. It doesn't matter if you guys came forward. Nothing is ever going to happen. No one's ever going to undo this environment the way that it is. And you know, there's still a lot to do. There's still a lot of people I do not believe should be in these environments, whether it's in USA gymnastics or at the US Center for SafeSport or in the performing arts world. These people still have got to go. That's the difficult part. And seeing the great changes that have been made, the great gains, you can't say that there hasn't just been amazing gains over the last seven years, but the fact that there are still other things that have not changed is very disconcerting and it's very hard to see, and it's very hard to still interact in environments with people that I know are. Or have been part of the problem for a very long time, let alone the people that should have gone to prison and gone to jail and never did. And so I hope that we continue to create these environments where it's not the exception, it's the rule that folks are held accountable, lawfully. They're not just given a slap on the wrist and they're not just moved to somewhere else. That they are legally and lawfully held accountable in a way that we haven't seen in the past. And I know that that is probably one of the only ways. To make this environment, the environment that it's supposed to be, whether it's in youth sports or it's sending your child in the performing arts, which at this point is more along the lines of what about like 90% of parents are going to do from what I see?

Alli 14:54

Yeah. Yeah. And I think exactly you're, there has to be checks and balances, and there has to be many ways towards change, right? Like this is a complex system that has been built for a very long time, and when you're changing a complex system, it's. A lot of different approaches for things to come together and work just like building it in the first place is that building a new structure is gonna be similar and so learn it. I think what you said about like knowing someone's routine, I coach soccer and I swear like figuring out what leagues and levels of soccer, it's like researching the constitution. It is so layered and complex and if. Parents can do that. If coaches can do that, we also mm-hmm. Can learn and understand the requirements that SafeSport holds us to as coaches and mm-hmm. What we need to do in order to be on the field and for parents to know that and deeply know that, and to ask us questions and we should have answers to them. And if we don't, we need to be. Taught them or held accountable for the reasons we don't. You know, I think it's such a good point that if you are gonna have your kid in competitive sport knowing their rights, just like you know, their level of play or their routine, or if they're the lead of this play and how many hours they spent practicing their lines, do you also know how is the director setting up the culture? What does that look like for them? Is this space. Friendly and creative. Or dictorial and unkind and why. Right. And that is okay. And asking questions always is a big deal. But it's that and piece I think too of what you're saying. And then the performing arts and the circus industry sounds like as well, these checks and balances just don't really exist. It's only one. And that should be a red flag, right? If it's this one union. This one group is giving us all the stats. We should always question it. Also, to your point, stats are kind of be us, and at the end of the day, we know abuse is happening. So whether that's to 50% or 1%, I don't care. I don't think we should care. It should be. Abuse is happening, so we need to prevent it. The big numbers to me sometimes freeze people and I think breaking that down and being like, does it really matter if a kid's getting harmed, a kid's getting harmed? Right? So let's have checks and balances there. And for you being an entertainer, what do you feel like besides having safe entertainment, having these other agencies, what are ways that parents can help? Build this culture a little differently in the art space because I think it does have that gymnastics feel of I'm gonna make your kid a star. I'm gonna take them at a very young age and they're gonna make a lot of money. You know, I think that might be a little bit different from gymnastics. I'm not sure if you made money performing, but kids entertainment do make money and we protect their finances, but do we protect. As entities, so kind of how do you see that playing out? You live and breathe it. I mean, in the entertainment world and also at adult levels, right? Adults are being harmed, adults are being abused and assaulted as well. Not, this isn't just kids in circus and entertainment. So can you hit that a little bit deeper?

Shanae 18:30

Yes. That's so great. All of that feedback, Allie, and the questions about, I love that you're saying that it's not just the children that are going into these entertainment spaces. It is adults. I mean, I've. I've been abused as an adult in the circus industry, and I'm even someone that feels like I am educated, and that's been my journey as a survivor of coming into spaces and the same patterns are playing out because you're always going to be working through those patterns. You're. Always gonna be working through those symptoms of abuse. And especially if you go into an environment that is so similar, it's a lot of the same people that cross over from your sporting world into the performing arts world. It, it really is. Many times the people that you send your kids to those camps are the same people. That'll be the judge. And so you think you can dance?

19:18

Mm-hmm.

Shanae 19:19

They've been going to conferences with them as little dancers for like 10, 15 years, and then suddenly those are the people that are gonna hire them to go on Beyonce's tour or be their choreographer. Does your child know their rights? Because they're gonna be around very similar mindsets. They're not gonna just usually be thrust more or less into these environments that are. So, so, so outrageously different. They might end up performing with a teammate. Mm-hmm. So it's like, oh, one of my teammates is there, or actually one of my old coaches is now a coach of Cirque de Sole. How about that? Mm-hmm. Or the scouts. The scouts from a big entertainment company, or an agent used to be a judge in competition. Now they're a scout. Now they're an agent. Now they're a manager, now they're a casting director. It's understanding all of these crossovers before you allow your child to go into these environments and educating them. Now that education starts now, especially within the performing arts world and, and, and adapting their competitive careers into these spaces, because I would say at least, maybe even now, it's like, I don't know the percentage, but maybe like 50% of national governing bodies of. Board are go, are going into the performing arts, whether it's break dance, you know, it's crazy. I mean, you have so many and, and sports that people don't even think about. You know, even if it's karate or TaeKwonDo, these are all sports that are going into the performing arts world. So, you know, not thinking like, or if it's cheer or if it's stunt, they're all being brought into Cirque de SLE in these spaces. For me, you know, I see a lot of parents wanting their children to go viral. I have such a big issue with that. I, you know, I've been advocating for so many bills to hold Facebook and, and spaces accountable for allowing materials of children to be profiteer on, on online. But I also, again, wanna bring this back because we're holding, we're trying to hold them accountable. Right. But what is the other part of that? Of wanting to hold yourself accountable. For example, wanting your child to go viral online. Is it the best thing? I know it's about monetizing. I know it's about letting them get their start when they're young. And I did actually make money as a child performer when I was a little kid. And we're seeing this also too in circus where the parents are allowing their kids to go and they're like, but they're gonna make money. They're gonna go on, they're gonna union protected. They're coach. To now drive their child to go to a GT or to go to the little job that they have and make a little bit of money, which they're usually not paying them properly. They're usually allowing them to perform in spaces that are very adult and at the same token. For going to a gymnastics competition or going to any sporting competition. They're like, oh, no, no, no. There's guidelines around that. We can't possibly let them do that, but you just let them go and get driven to do an a t audition without you. Right? Oh, that's fun. That's a part of their career. And we're gonna use this money for competition and we're gonna save it. And then they're gonna use that, and then they can go to college and then it's gonna be in their fund. All of these things that they're telling them, oh, they have this new, so, you know, I have a lot of feelings and judgements around allowing your child to be on social media, even if you're the one controlling it. Because this already sets the tone for what they feel is accessible for them and for the way they're going to see themselves. You know, you don't know how anybody might access them in the future from what you started for them, of when they're younger and is that gonna be dangerous to them? You know, somewhere down the line. Again, this mentality, the mentality and the brainwashing and the cultish like behavior around the entertainments and the arts of thinking that one day my child will make it and be famous. And it really comes down to that. So powerfully Ali, I don't think that I can underscore that enough because I see the parents going so hard for that so much, and even the ones that don't think that they're blinded by the possibility, of having those words fall off their tongue of what your child is doing. I mean, I'm sure we see it even now with NIL. I mean that was not something, right, just even a few years ago with children having access to now. That's all I hear when I come to spaces we wanna do in n viral. And everyone loves it, and how do we make sure that happens and they're on scholarship, all those things. It's a sickness. And that's the new, that's the new patterning. Everybody thinks like it's supposed to look like it did in the past. No. Now there's just new buzzwords. Like now there's just new words to hijack your childhood or hijack your child's protections and safety. And they're just gonna use different words than what we used just, 3, 4, 5, 10, 15 years ago. But the abusive behaviors, the abusive environments, and taking advantage of your child are absolutely the same. So, again, it comes back to sending your child. Into an adult space where you again, feel like you don't know enough about it. So again, it comes back to educating yourself about this circus environment. The circus environment is so intensely under-regulated. I don't care what you read out there, I don't care if you're at the best circus school that there is. They aren't under any checks and balances. They make them up. A lot of the circus schools make up their own credentials. They make up their own safety guidelines. They make up everything. And for the folks that are gonna push back on me getting angry, those are the people that don't want anyone messing with their money. Yeah. Right? Mm-hmm. Those are the spaces that don't want anyone saying anything about what they're doing in this circus environment with these programs and these camps, because they don't want anything happening to their business. So their business and their bottom line is going to come first, but I want people to really understand. That there is not an overseer or a national governing body of anything that is creating these things from studio to studio, from school to school, from program to program. Anyone can go and set up a rig and help you to teach your child aerial arts, right? Anyone can do that in their backyard. They don't have to. We've been around for a long time. Everybody knows us. And just to let you know, from my experience of being in gymnastics, that's the worst anybody can almost say to you, yeah, everybody knows us and everybody trusts us. Look out. So parents need to understand. Adults even need to know because there's a lot of adults that are in these programs that are coming to me and they're being abused and taking advantage of, like we were discussing Allie, and they're going through these very popular spaces. That are so well known, and they're like, what do we do? I don't wanna get blacklisted. I don't want anyone to not hire me. I don't want, you know, because it's a very small industry, even though it's, it's, it's very vast and it's worldwide. Unfortunately, you will always, almost always know someone. And there's always almost someone that's gonna be connected to a situation that you go into in the performing arts. And I even hear parents and things saying things like that too, where they're using that as a way to minimize their strategy of, of doing the right thing, which it's sad, but they're like, well, yeah, you know, everybody knows everyone and you know, and so you'll start to already use excuses. We don't want them blacklisted. We want them to be able to do the big shows. And the hard part in the circus is that you can be cast out very quickly. Yeah, and shut out of being able to work. The other aspect of that is that you actually can't, because there is so much opportunity out there. The circus arts is so vast and out there now that if you really wanted to get an opportunity, you most likely probably could. It might not be your favorite, might not be the best. It might not be overly secured, but you could probably potentially find opportunity out there. The other thing is that there's just so many different. Aspects of the performing arts. You know, we discussed the AcroYoga medium and those folks getting into the acro, hobbyist movement, and a lot of them are now going into the circus. Those things are, those environments are not under the same guidelines of the competitive spaces, and people need to watch out for that. And I know the people that are a part of these environments, there's a lot of good people in these environments too, but the ratio is definitely imbalanced. And I don't care how many good people, there was a lot of good people in USA gymnastics that didn't do the right thing. A lot of good people. There was a lot of good people that helped us all to get to the point to where we got in terms of suffering through all these like really horrific things. And these are people that still say to this day that they're good people. They'll say that to this day. They'll say it to your face, I was a good person, or I was one of the good ones and I didn't really believe in that. And you hear that a lot now in the circus world. Well, I feel like I'm speaking out and I'm doing the right thing. But you oftentimes see that people are willing to speak out behind closed doors. They're not willing to overly put themselves out. No one wants to lose access. To working with Cirque de Soleil, and that is a problem. And do I get a lot of flack for saying that even though everyone agrees with me? Absolutely. But you cannot have one company that holds the keys and the cards to everything. Just like you can't have one institution that does that because they, it's corruptible. All power consumed in one centralized place is not great, and it doesn't minimize how great the possibility and the potential is because what is my other big advocacy effort to make sure that. Children from competitive sports know that they have a future in the career in the arts. That is my other counter to that, whatever anyone's saying, like, oh, she's just, you know, doesn't want anyone to have fun. She doesn't want anyone to have a good time. And she's, you know, you know, people get so upset and they get so triggered and I'm like, yeah, but. Do not see. The other aspect of me is like I want everyone to have as big of a career in the circus as I have had, because I continue to be in the circus and I am fortunate, and I always still say that I'm lucky to have the path that I have had and past that, you know, even friends that. Did go to the Olympics and did so many great things and their careers, stopped after a certain time. Maybe they didn't even go collegiate, but then they didn't go into the arts and some of them really wished that they had. So I feel like bringing this mentality into this environment where I see so much of the same mediums, but I see so many of these environments that are reaching out to government, actually so many environments like ballet and different spaces in the performing arts are also now finally reaching out to government and saying like. How can you help us? They're reaching out to organizations like Rain. They're reaching out, to survivor environments and saying, how do we create a, a more equitable and safer space because we haven't been doing it right and we still dunno how to get it right. And we don't have something like a SafeSport, or we don't even have an HR because we're a circus company and most of those companies don't have hr. Right. And most folks think I'm in the arts, so I can't even use the same, the, the similar channels that a normal employer would use. I can't go through the EEOC, I can't go to like the Labor board. I can't file a complaint against this company. It's an art company. Like how would they take that? How would they understand my story? Are there people in these positions that will even understand the nuance of my experience in an environment that is so different because they use words like VE Verify or they use words like circ or they use French words or terms that they made up, right? I mean, that's, that's easy enough to confuse and intimidate somebody to not stand up for themselves. It's not to shame or you know, any. Anything like that, like, you know, where again, make an entity like a Cirque Lei who I still continue to work for. I will say that as well, that yeah. You know, to this day. But I believe that if you love something that's your own personal responsibility to hold it accountable. You can love something and not like it.

30:39

Yeah.

Shanae 30:39

So, you know, just 'cause you love doesn't mean that you're not allowed to criticize, have judgments or say this environment or this person or whatever I'm involved in is not perfect and is not doing well by me. But I see that. So much in the performing arts spaces where, people will say, how am I gonna go to the police about this? They won't even know what I'm talking about. I'm saying aerial tissue. I'm saying trapeze. They're just gonna laugh at me. Yeah. You know, I'm, I'm talking about partnering. And then they'll say, well, what do you mean he touched you? Wasn't he supposed to hold your hand like that? I mean, how do you typically hold a hand? Or what do you mean that felt invasive? Isn't that the technique? Or what does that mean? So, you know. Mm-hmm. This has also been a part of mine. Journey in speaking with government and speaking with officials like this to create that language so that it is normalized in these spaces. You know, when they're like, what's a PO to do? Like they don't know. And so how are they gonna help you if they don't understand that? And I know that it's definitely getting better. They're definitely in many spaces, are starting to say we cannot have folks. That are handling these cases as investigators that don't have a history and experience in the performing arts because they don't understand the nuance. Just like when I did my investigations with SafeSport initially, they were horrific because these are folks that didn't even know terms and gymnastics that were like basic 1 0 1. How can you investigate an environment that you are so green about? You don't even know the complexities or the simple term terminology that I'm using, right? You dunno how somebody would even use that terminology against me. So how do you not know that that's not abuse? So those are the things that I see within this performing arts world that, you know, are so unique and so different that we, again, takes a lot of time to be able to do this. But that's the consistent work that it's going to take to reshape and remold these environments that have been a certain way and been so. Static and so stuck for so long that everyone is so against thinking that they can ever be different. But they can, and they need to be. And folks need to either get in there and be advocating about it or boycotting them and advocating from the outside. However, however, however

Alli 32:36

you wanna

Shanae 32:37

do it.

Alli 32:37

However that shows up. I mean, yeah, that's all so important, like. The language piece and knowing it's not about the right questions, but it's knowing enough to be curious. You know, curiosity comes with knowledge. I can't be curious about something I don't really understand and I can't conceptualize and leaning into curiosity. If you don't know something, be curious and learn about it. And if an institution is telling you to not be curious, or an institution's telling you not to ask questions or is telling you that they don't have an interest in regulation. That should make you ask a lot more questions and, and maybe explore other studios. The plus side of it is like, I mean, I live in LA so on every corner there's a acting studio and there's a dance studio, and you know, there's gymnastic studios everywhere and it's like, it should be, if they're not regulated or they don't have policies, they should be accepting of that question at the very least. And if they're not. To me sounds like a pretty serious red flag for parents and don't get caught up in basically what you're saying is the showmanship a little bit of I am the only road and yeah, the industry is small. You hear it all the time, but you have persevered. You speak out and you're here and you're doing it. So yeah, it's small, but it also probably has brought in. More people standing next to you, the more people standing against you. People saying, I feel this way too. I've gone through this. Or I'm scared. I don't know what to do. I'm glad you're talking about it. You know, my guess is your life has expanded, not closed in talking about these issues. And I think that's our fear is we will lose everything if we talk about it. And I think it's the opposite. You gain. So much more than your brain could ever conceptualize as being real. Absolutely. I totally agree. Yeah, I mean, I love everything you just said. It was perfect. And I guess as we kinda wrap it up a little bit, is there anything, you've given amazing advice for parents and athletes in general, but is there anything our listeners can do to help with any of the policy that you're looking into or working on and. Be proactive in rebuilding these cultures within the circus world, within the entertainment industry, within gymnastics. Anything that's unregulated. I don't know, a single parent that's probably not operating in an unregulated space. I mean, you put your kids in tumbling at the age of like. Zero. I mean, right. It's like, yes, I, and I don't know. So you're, there's probably a reality where you are operating in that. And again, it doesn't mean that space is dangerous, but Right. Asking questions and just checking. And again, checking. Shouldn't be met with like, screw you. Right. And if it is, get out. I'm gonna say don't do that. Get outta space. But it's okay. Ask those. Is there anything. You know, on this side that we can really help and push forward this culture of safety.

Shanae 35:49

Yes. Thank you so much, Allie. I appreciate that. I appreciate you having me on the podcast again and for having this incredible, beautiful space. You are such a gift, and I love all the places that you go to and all the places that we're able to go to because these are places that haven't been gone to before where these, these conversations are so multifaceted, like what you're saying. They're so complex. Like my life has gone in so many directions for speaking. Speaking on this that I never would've imagined and I would not change anything, no matter how hard it has been and how challenging it is and how challenging it still is going to these spaces. You know, it's hard going into these spaces. As a survivor, no one wants to talk about abuse. No one wants to talk about abuse against children, right? Mm-hmm. Which is the most important thing we could be talking about, which is the saddest thing that no one wants to talk about it. So getting over that space of being uncomfortable, but knowing that it is very difficult going to these spaces for me as well going, but the more difficult thing is watching and hearing. Stories of the victims and of things that were not held properly and not done. And seeing the damage that it does to a life and having to undo that damage, it's not easy going into spaces saying, please, you know, legislate the circus arts and take the arts seriously and give us policy and what does that even mean? And you know, using the language of dc using the language of politics, which is important because it is a very political space. It is very political. You know, I'm speaking to senators and members of Congress. All the time that are on both sides, whatever that means for people and for me, that's it absolutely means nothing because you have to be able and be willing to do that work to get these bills and these policies passed. And you learn that very early on. Like, wow, okay, really we're really just talking to everybody. Whoa, I, oh my God. Like these are the people that hold the keys. So in supporting me. We have a petition. It's the Circus Arts Guild of America. It's on change.org, and it is pushing for circus arts recognition in America. We are also pushing to unionize the circus arts industry, which it is not. There is no unionized protections for the circus arts industry. I have been a member of SAG for years, so I know what it's like to exist. On set and on stage with union support. I also know the other part of my career that has been so prolific to exist with zero Union protection with people would be shocked to know that Cirque de Soleil is not unionized. There are certain facets within Cirque de Soleil shows like wardrobe, some in makeup, some that are doing the rigging. Some of them have union protection. The performers that you've seen on stage and the majority of everybody else. No union status. There's no, it's crazy. It's crazy. So in joining me and calling for also mailing email. You are a member of Congress and your senator and talking to your local council member and assembly members about the circus arts and about regulation, about safe art, safe circus, emailing SafeSport and saying, we demand you create a branch of safe art or safe circus for our children because our children are simultaneously competing. Going to circus camps and you are not able to regulate them, and we know that for a fact and nothing is being done. I have been in contact with USA gymnastics and SafeSport about these very same things, and I have continued to advocate. I took them to the White House. We went to the White House a few months ago. We strategized an entire meeting with the Department of Labor. We were hosted by the White House to have this very complex, multifaceted conversation around the circus arts. And how we can regulate and how we can enforce some type of policy prevention for these spaces. So please contact them also to advocate for the new Safer Sport policy that is being introduced to this legislative session right now that's currently happening. To get that passed email again, your Congress person, and call them about these issues and say, we actually know that there's solutions out there, but you don't have to say, I just want something to happen. Say I'm for the unionization of the circus arts industry. I'm for policy in the form of safe arts, safe circus, a branch of safe sport for the performing arts that would be legislated and have policy and talk to folks on all of those levels because it can be done at the local level, at the state level, and then it can go to the higher ups on the federal level. It can just happen first in Nevada and Las Vegas. It can just happen first. California get and call your representative to have them sponsor a bill because we are trying to have circus arts recognition in America by the National Endowment for the Arts, which would change a lot of the accessibility of the arts and funding. But accessibility is. Sometimes more important at this point than the funding of the arts. I hope people really understand that because every single time we speak about the arts, it always comes back to just funding and not that funding doesn't allow you to do all these programs. Yeah. But there is alert, a certain level of accessibility you don't have, even if you have the funding right. There's certain, there's certain doors you can't get through. So. I've discussed this before, my three-prong approach and having policy, you know, we're looking for maybe even a circus workers act. You know, please say that when you call them. Leave a voicemail. Send an email. If you're a part of a circus studio or a gymnastics gym, this is time for you to start thinking about those things now, not, not in the future, and not thinking that you're not a part of those things. The people that are in those shows that you love to see all the time in Las Vegas are from gymnastics, right? They're, they're, they're from your local gym. They're on your screen competing right now. Yeah. So you are advocating for them, even if you might not realize it when you understand who's behind a lot of the, the, the face paint, the makeup and the wigs. Right, right. You know, it's, it's all of us. It's people like me that you just never recognize are up there, you know? 'cause I, I've, I'm blue, you know, blue on stage. I'm a butterfly, I'm whatever. Right? Yeah. You know, I, I'm, I'm, any one of those things you just, you just don't recognize, but you are advocating. For me, there was recently a fashion workers act that was just signed into law in New York, and that has changed the game for the rights that they had within the fashion industry. And it's wild. People thought that there was, there would never be the possibility to legislate the fashion world. I mean, the fashion industry, again, so corrupt, so unforgiving, so abusive. So not by the book. I mean a lot of it is trafficking in the fashion industry and circus is very, very similar in that way. Not to continue to knock this, but the medium is so amazing, right? And so beautiful and so interesting and so innovative and so historic. That's why we need to do things from different angles. So reminding you that we do have a petition on change.org and you can contact us through there, the Circus Arts Guild of America in supporting our efforts and you know, starting to speak out and say. The circus arts industry deserves union rights. Specifically, we deserve policy, a Circus Rights Act, a Circus Workers Act, and then again, the addition to SafeSport and contacting them directly because it does work. I mean, we've seen people for sure get tweeted down on x and. Policy changes or companies change, right? Like that matters when these senators and members of Congress, because we're in meetings with them all the time. If they're getting a lot of messages about something, they will change it if they're getting hundreds, thousands of calls. That's the feedback we get when we're in meetings, whether it's about, you know, protecting survivors and pushing a important bill in that particular way, or if it's pushing something within the arts. But if they are not hearing about it, if it's not in their awareness, it's very challenging for us to continue to do the. Work without having folks that are either connected to the industry or outside of the industry or don't feel, you know, like they have a direct voice to it. But you do, you know, yeah. It's, it shouldn't matter because you know someone, someone of someone is going to be affected by these industries that I'm talking to you about. Someone that you know has a child or is doing something as a hobby. Any of those things is going, any of those types of involvements in these spaces is going to be affected by your actions in the form of policy and doing grassroots. You know, efforts on the ground. You can find me on social media. Shana, S-H-E-N-E-A. I go by Shenae Stiletto and I'm putting it out there just so that folks can find me and follow me in that way, and follow the work and sign the petitions and show up to the meetings that we have. We do town halls, we do virtual meetups, and then so much of our work is behind the scenes. If there's anything that you wanna offer us pro bono, we're always looking for policy drafters for folks that are already connected to government, that can continue to advocate for us, we come to dc. If you wanna meet us in DC, we will come to meet you in DC like we literally. And I mostly go literally all over to conventions and conferences and anything that will have me in discussing these very important and crucial changes that I believe that can happen. We just need to get the proper support for them and to get them passed through in some way. So thank you again, Allie, for having me.

Alli 44:42

Yeah, of course. And we'll post links to all those things and I mean, you are amazing the work that you're doing and I think to love to care about something as much as you do is to truly love it. Right. We don't. We don't want something to change that we don't care about. And you care a lot about this industry and the multifaceted approaches and access to it, and I think we all can. I personally love anytime someone loves something, I wanna get behind it and support it because. It's just what life is. And so I hope all of our listeners will help in this cause because at the root of it is just deep love and deep care and giving you and other performers the tools to do it safely, effectively, and appreciated. Right? We all need to be appreciated too, and that's important. And knowing that. You have rights and you can negotiate and you can make your life better. Not based off of the interpretation of some survey, but off of the real life experience. And that voice is heard is huge. So please everyone use your voices and get involved on this because it is wonderful and so important and on many levels. So Shana, thank you for being here. It has meant a lot to me and this has been such a lovely conversation.

Shanae 46:00

Thank so much, ally. I'm so honored by all the work that you do, and thank you so much for having me on the Breaking Silence podcast. Of course,

Alli 46:06

yes. Thanks everybody. We'll see you next time.

46:17

Safety.