Ep 251: Beyond Deconstruction and Building a More Expansive Faith with James McGrath

In this episode I talk once again with the great Dr. James McGrath, who has authored the brand-new Beyond Deconstruction: Building a More Expansive Faith, out now on Eerdmans, where he discusses the process of deconstruction, changing one’s mind about issues of faith, and how to rebuild. In this conversation James defines deconstruction, describes his own personal experience of spiritual transformation, the dangers of fundamentalism and the need to rebuild a faith which avoids the trappings of fundamentalism, and how dogma can become idolatrous. We then talk about the politics of deconstruction, his identity as a liberal Christian, why people generally deconstruct from the political right to the political left, and why we need to have better conversations about our differences. 

Media Referenced:

Beyond Deconstruction: https://a.co/d/08FTMyqW

James McGrath Blog: https://www.patheos.com/blogs/religionprof/

James on Twitter: @ReligionProf

James on the Bible: https://libertarianchristians.com/episode/ep-104-what-biblical-scholars-want-everyone-to-know-about-the-new-testament-with-james-mcgrath/

James on John the Baptist: https://libertarianchristians.com/episode/ep-134-john-the-baptist-with-james-mcgrath/

James on Misunderstanding Judaism: https://libertarianchristians.com/episode/ep-230-why-we-misunderstand-judaism-with-james-mcgrath/

The Protestant Libertarian Podcast is a project of the Libertarian Christian Institute and a part of the Christians For Liberty Network. The Libertarian Christian Institute can be found at www.libertarianchristians.com.

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Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

This is the Protestant Libertarian Podcast, a project of the Libertarian Christian Institute and part of the Christians for Liberty Network. I really hope that you guys enjoy today's show. All right, guys, welcome to another episode of the Protestant Libertarian Podcast. My guest today is once again the great Dr. James McGrath. Dr. McGrath is the Clarence L. Goodwin Chair in New Testament language and literature of Butler University and the author of several incredible books, including the brand new Beyond Deconstruction, Building a More Expansive Faith, out now on Eerdmans, where he discusses the process of deconstruction, changing one's mind about issues of faith and how to rebuild. We'll be discussing this book on the show today. Dr. McGrath, welcome back to the Protestant Libertarian Podcast.

SPEAKER_01 0:46

Thank you so much. Please call me James. I've been on here enough times that uh we should be on a first name basis, right?

SPEAKER_00 0:52

Well, per well, perfect, James. Yeah, yeah, I appreciate that. Uh for you know, I and I I have gotten some new listeners, and the I I think you were just on maybe like three two or three months ago. So it hasn't been that long since I had you on the show. But just tell us a little bit about your background before we get into the conversation today.

SPEAKER_01 1:07

Yeah, and the truth is that my background is uh directly connected to the book, although not in the way that has been true of other books of mine, right? So m other books that I've written have been the products of my research, right? One of the things that academics do for a living. Um and my main field is New Testament, early Christianity, and so I've written mostly about that. Have also done work on the intersection of religion and science fiction, and so have published on that. But there, I mean, there are things that I find interesting, and they connect with, you know, sort of my own faith tradition and you know uh religious identity and life and things like that. So but this book is a much more personal one, and it really is about sort of the the journey and the experience of being a person who's motivated by their faith to go to Bible college and then pursue academic study of the Bible with a view to um teaching, teaching, yeah, and possibly you know doing sort of mission work and things like that. And what often happens is you're motivated by a faith that has uh tells you some things about the Bible, about what it is, uh, what you should expect from it, how it should how it should behave, as it were. And then you study this collection of texts, and the texts themselves throw you curveballs and uh basically upset some of some of the the things you've been told about the Bible, right? And that can be extremely disconcerting. And so the way the the book connects with what a lot of people have been going through uh in recent years, with the the free flow of information, greater availability, and more convenient access to uh the fruits of academic study of the Bible, you know, there are there are places online where people are sharing things or you know, sharing summaries of things, or you know, people more people are reading scholarship or listening to podcasts with the academic scholars uh in ways that were was not was not true before, right? And so I think to a greater extent, more people are encountering the fruits of academic study. And as a result, not just of that, but certainly that's one of the factors, there are people who are discovering as a result of this academic research that we publish that things that they've been told about the Bible, you know, it's at the very least not that simple, right? And there's the complexity to it, and there are other aspects to it, and or these texts, yeah, not just in terms of you know possibilities of contradictions or things like that, but the texts might not mean as clearly the things that you've been told they mean, and so you know directly support your your beliefs in that way. And so people are wrestling with that, and some you know some lose their faith as a result, uh, some stop going to church and you know still consider themselves Christians but are not really sure and are sort of wandering. And since I've come through the process of rethinking a lot of things as a result of my studies and come out the other end as someone who's a Christian but with beliefs that are different in a lot of ways than they were when I started this process, it seemed almost necessary, you know, at the very least appropriate, but maybe even that I had an obligation to share just what what that journey was like, you know, as sort of a guide to others who might be going along not exactly the same path, but something similar. And so, in a sense, this is a book that sort of unveils and sort of reveals and tells the story of my my background and my journey in a way that you know something I've written about John the Baptist does not as directly, right? It's just it's it's in there, you know, in a sense, anytime somebody writes something, our background is reflected in there. Uh, but this one, this one is much more personal, I think, in a lot of ways.

SPEAKER_00 4:56

Yeah, and and I want to, before we even get into the details of the book, I want to talk about the term deconstruction itself because it's a word that I feel like people have been using for a little over a decade now. Maybe it goes back further than that. But I I I I was not on social media until I started this podcast in 2022. And I kind of had a familiarity with deconstruction, kind of like what it meant. I did not realize how politicized that term had become and how angry people were either for deconstruction or against deconstruction. And I I really I I've been thinking over the last couple of years, as I've just reflected on this, that we need to have more of a calm conversation about it and be able to analyze it uh in a more sober manner. So, what like in in in your from your perspective, what is deconstruction? How would you define it?

SPEAKER_01 5:42

Yeah. Yeah, thank you. Great question. And to start with, there's a pre-history of this term that goes back multiple decades. Uh an approach to literature that was labeled deconstruction, right? Was pioneered by uh this sort of philosopher and um uh expert in literature uh named Jacques Derrida, and used the term to refer to essentially reading against the grain of a text, like noticing the other possibilities for interpretation that are there. And that's not what most people talking about today are are talking about. Uh there is there is a sense in which there's at least some continuity, you know. I mean the the first instinct of of academics is when a term gets used in a a non-technical way and starts to become popular is to say, like, no, no, that's not what it means. Um language, you know, we we can't control it in that way, and it's come to mean this thing. Uh, but there's a sense in which, you know, even the process of discovering that you know there are other ways of reading biblical texts than maybe the one way that you've been told is the right way to understand that. Uh, there are details in the text that might push back against your interpretation. Uh, that very much is in keeping with sort of what what Derrida was focusing on in literature and you know the philosophy that emerged out of that. But what the the contemporary use of the term is focused on is a wide variety of um types of experience that all fall under the umbrella of of rethinking one's faith and critically examining one's faith. And there's been hostility towards the term uh from from certain conservatives uh who view the process as essentially destructive. And it can be, right? If you've if you've got a sort of a narrow set of of beliefs that you've not examined closely, examining them, and that's anywhere on the the sort of the political, the religious spectrum, any type of religion, you know, that's not something that's only in one sort of one camp or one category. But if you have been steeped in that kind of unquestioning allegiance to a perspective, then closely examining it can be destructive of that in the form in which you knew it. Um one of the reasons I wrote the book is that oftentimes people feel experience, you know, if if if the Bible has been sort of foundational, you know, and whether it should have been or not is another question, but if the Bible has been foundational, it's been central to their faith, their sense of how they know anything at all about God and things like that, then if the Bible becomes something that you're less certain about, then everything related to your faith becomes something that you're less certain about. And if having the sense of certainty, the illusion of certainty is what faith is all about in certain conservative contexts, then this is sort of destructive of that. But having come out with a different sort of faith on sort of on the other end of working through your questions and alternative interpretations and questions of evidence and all these kinds of things. Uh, precisely, you know, that's precisely the reason I wanted to write this book. And Erdman's recommended calling it Beyond Deconstruction to keep that word deconstruction in the title. Uh, but it's it's about anything from like renovating your faith, like proactively taking a look and saying, you know, how certain am I about all this? Have I assumed these things are right? Is it possible that you know what the Bible says, some things that are are not incorporated, even though I claim, you know, my church claims to be Bible-believing? Uh it doesn't have to be destructive, but even if it's destructive, right, sometimes having a solid house to live in, the only way to get there is by tearing down this thing that you didn't pay any attention to for too long, you just assumed it was sturdy and eventually it collapses around you, right? And so that's why, you know, for some people this experience of deconstruction is is destructive. And that's been a criticism from from some who like reject and say you shouldn't undergo this experience, but it's also been experienced as traumatically destructive by many who've undergone it. And this book is is aimed particularly at those people to help help rebuild, right? Not rebuild what you you know, what collapsed in the same form, but to build something that you can talk about and think about positively. Because uh, for a long time I myself, you know, would say, you know, would have said, you know, well, I'm still a Christian, but you know, I don't subscribe to biblical inerrancy the way I used to, and I don't, you know, I don't hold this view, I don't hold that view. And we're defining ourselves over against what we were. And we're always, I mean, we're always shaped by what we were, you know, even when we're not any longer in ways that we don't always admit. But being able to say positive things and not just negative things, I think is important in in any worldview.

SPEAKER_00 10:36

Yeah. No, I I I completely agree with that. And it's this book is you can you can tell that it's in your voice, but it's different than a lot of your other work because, like you said before, you do a lot of, and every time I've had you on the show, I've had you want to talk about your contributions to biblical scholarship. So I the next question I want to kind of ask you in two parts. Um, I know you you kind of talked about your experience in Bible college already, but what was your own personal process of deconstruction like? Just how it shaped your faith, how you went from, you know, how you went from where you were to saying, you know, I'm a Christian, but and then beyond that. And then also just as an as an author and as someone who's written widely in the genre of biblical scholarship, what was it like to write a more a more personal book like this?

SPEAKER_01 11:18

Yeah. Well, thank you. Um so always hard to know where to begin, sort of a story about sort of one's journey. Yeah, was you know, grew grew up in uh the Catholic Church, and it was around the time of my confirmation that I stopped attending regularly because this was supposed to be the sort of decisive moment, this real sort of it's it's becoming your own. And it just I didn't feel different, and it didn't have that significance for me personally. And so I I went into a you know a phase of trying to figure out what I believe, uh still believed in God, but was not sure about a lot of other things. And eventually, you know, uh make a long story short, you know, was invited to a friend's church, and it's it just it was it was clear that was real to them in a way that it wasn't had you know, sort of going to Catholic Church had not been to me. Uh and so just sort of called out to God and surrender and had a border experience in that context, and pretty much immediately knew that this this has to make a difference to what I'm doing after high school, for instance, and things like that. And so volunteered on some children's camps in Ireland um through a connection in that church, and met people who were uh from you know different cultures, you know, Scottish, English, Irish, but also who were from other denominations. And so I realized that there are people who seem to have something like the faith that I now have, and yet hold these varied views on a variety of topics. And they think these things are crucially important, and I haven't even heard of some of them. And there are things that I've been hearing about emphasized that you know, if I ask them about them, it's like and so wanted to study and find out more about this, and so went to Bible college and sought an opportunity to do so in the UK to get that cross-cultural perspective, and at a college that was interdenominational. And I think that was like crucially important in a lot of ways for my journey, not being as traumatic as it could have been. I mean, it was still difficult and challenging, and there's a lot of you know, wrestling and grappling with, you know, is it okay that I'm changing my mind about these things? And is okay, it's you know, what do I do with the fact that the Bible doesn't seem to be uh confirming everything I thought it's supposed to about uh these beliefs? But UK evangelicalism is not as narrow and as nor as as um dogmatic across the board as American evangelicalism tends to be. And so in that context, there were opportunities to hear from a sort of a an evangelical perspective challenges to things like the assumption of mosaic authorship of the Pentateuch, right? And things like that, which otherwise it's like those liberal scholars are challenging it. And you had evangelical authors who were saying, you're pointing out there are these things in the Pentateuch that reflect, refer to realities after the time of Moses, right, from the time of the monarchy. Therefore, the Bible itself is presenting evidence that this is from later than Moses in the form in which we now have it. And that's not only shaped my my journey in important ways, because I realized that sometimes you can be defending your doctrines, even your doctrine about the Bible from the Bible itself. But it's also shaped how I teach, because I realize that if you present these things not as you, well, here's what some scholars have to say. But you know, here are these texts. Let's see if we can figure out why these are so confusing. Let's see if we can figure out why we have these different versions and these different gospels. Um, that it's clearly this seems to be the same story, and yet there are these differences. And then get from there to the synoptic problem rather than starting with so here's this thing we're gonna learn about say doing it inductively that way. I think for those for whom the Bible is important, it becomes the Bible raising the questions instead of scholars sort of questioning the Bible and potentially seeming to challenge it. And so you know all of this can be disconcerting, but one thing that I'm persuaded of sort of with hindsight is that the process is disconcerting because uh Christians, because churches have made it disconcerting, right? We've we've presented the faith, we've presented Christian faith as something that you you know, I mean, the Bible uses the language of you know, sort of received once for all, but uh it also uses the language of maturation and growing, right? And that second part, that idea that this is something that you sort of receive once for all, and there is a simplicity to it on one level, but it's something where your understanding should grow and you should develop that part we sometimes uh not only neglect, some some merely neglect it, some actively stifle it. And it's as a result of that, I think, rather than anything inherent, you know, any kind of inherent tension between rigorous study of the Bible and personal faith. I mean, I'm convinced of that now, but I think that the the the the the hurdles were were were placed in the way by humans and were not sort of something that had to be part of the package, as it were.

unknown 16:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 16:41

So I think I think that gets us at your first question.

SPEAKER_00 16:44

Um, what was your second question again? Just so what was it like to being being a biblical scholar who often writes on academic subjects, what was it like to write a personal book like this?

SPEAKER_01 16:53

Yeah, and I mean I think in in one sense it it wasn't that different from some things I'd done, just in the sense that I had shared some of these things, you know, not in this kind of systematized form and not with all these details, but had had been blogging and had been doing other things where I was talking a bit more about my journey than I did. Uh on the other hand, it's you know, there's there's something you know, there writing any kind of authorship, you are you're sort of putting yourself on the line.

SPEAKER_02 17:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 17:25

And then you know, if you're writing, if you're writing a novel, then it's like, will anyone like this? Yeah, I mean, before that, will anyone read this, right? You know, those kinds of questions. You know if you do scholarship, you know, am I am I persuasive, right? I think I've got a case here, but am I right? You know, will anybody find me persuasive? When you're telling your own story, I think that's sort of nerve-wracking in another way because you're not just opening your I opening up your ideas for scrutiny. You're you're you're you're sharing, I think, more personal aspects of yourself and how you how you've how you've wrestled with things along the way. And so on the on the one hand, it's not entirely unlike uh what one does as an author across the board. On the other hand, I think I think it is it is making oneself more vulnerable in a lot of ways.

SPEAKER_00 18:16

Yeah. No, I I I love that. Well, we've uh you talk in your book a lot about the dangers of fundamentalism. And I think that this is one of the I was very fortunate just in my in my own spiritual upbringing, that I I was uh definitely brought up in an evangelical church, but we weren't like a fundamentalist church. And so I always kind of saw biblical fundamentalism as something that was outside of my own experience. But I do know just from my my own perception of, you know, kind of reading about deconstruction and seeing people who claim to have deconstructed and talking to them, that a lot of people that deconstruct deconstruct out of fundamentalism, and they identify a lot of, even if we have, you know, differences and world kind of worldview perspectives, we all kind of identify the exact same problems with fundamentalism. And I think you do a great job of addressing that in your book as well. So, what are some of the problems with the like the fundamentalist Christian mentality?

SPEAKER_01 19:05

Yeah, um, well, well, one of them is that it makes everybody who's not a fundamentalist feel like they have to apologize for the form of faith that they have, right? Um and on the one hand, you know, there's this deceptive advertising about fundamentalism that I think it's important to highlight. No matter how far they go in any particular direction, let's say, of biblical literalism, it's always selective literalism. Yeah, right. Uh it's not, you know, you there are plenty of people who would say, you know, I am I am a Bible-believing Christian, and they say, Okay, so the dome in Genesis 1, they're like, well, it doesn't have to mean dome. It's like, okay, you know. Uh is it it's important, you know, they'll say, to reject, you know, millions of years according to geology and those and um you know radiometric dating and other things. And it's like, well, is it important to say that you believe literally with your heart and not with your brain? Because Paul uses that language, and that was what ancient people, some ancient people assumed was true. And they're like, well, no, there you can take it as a metaphor. It's like, okay. And the attempt to present one very, very narrow form of Christianity as not just you know, as the only form legitimate form, as the default form, where everything else is a departure from it, it's it's just not true, right? I mean, historically, you know, Christianity has been a lot of a lot of different things, and there has always been a conservative element in it. But you you look at some of the teaching of Jesus, you look at Paul making the case for letting in uncircumcised Gentiles and considering them full members of the household of Abraham. Uh, you look at at Jonah, you know, as sort of it's like God is showing mercy to these these enemies we hate, and you know, I and I really I really am mad at God about this, and you know, sort of poking fun at him and telling this you know story that's comedic on so many levels. There's so much in there that is not narrow, that's not dogmatic, uh, that's not um that that doesn't view faith in the sense of that's emphasized in the Bible, you know, trust in God as antithetical to questions and to serious reflection and to study and to to conversation across difference and things like that. And so I think one of the big dangers of fundamentalism is that on the one hand, it sets up a lot of people to lose their faith if they actually read the Bible uh at anything more than a superficial level. Right. And on the other hand, by you know being dogmatic in ways that sound arrogant and often are arrogant, uh it it it presents Christianity in a way that puts others off. And to the extent that sometimes you know people in the media and other people outside who are not Christians think that this this too is like the default form of Christianity, it does harm to actually talking about Christianity and sharing one's faith or one's perspective as something that might deserve to be taken seriously and that it's actually sort of open and honest in ways that fundamentalism is uh inclined not to be.

SPEAKER_00 22:20

Yeah and I I I love the way that you put it in your book is you talk about like the idolatry of dogma that for a lot of Christians the dogma actually kind of supplants facing faith in Christ. And I want you to comment on that because I I think that that's such a brilliant insight. And for you know for for myself someone who who like kind of proudly wears the label of Protestant my fundamental belief is that the Bible should be kind of the primary source of authority. And there are so many people that put their dogmas and their traditions before biblical authority or they they can only read the Bible through the lens of their tradition. And I've I've kind of often made the same case in that in that in in that sense where it's almost like you're replacing this belief in uh authority with the authority of your tradition. And I just I just love how you equated that with idolatry. So speak to that why is that such a a good analogy for speaking about the way that fundamentalists often think about their doctrines yeah so the Bible has a lot of warnings about idolatry.

SPEAKER_01 23:11

Like it's a major major focus. There are things about in the New Testament as well right but it really is you know in in in the Old Testament Hebrew Bible it's just this major focus right the first commandment or two commandments are about this right there's you have no other gods before be but then not making images of God right which is not simply saying the same thing over again right the Israelites were prohibited from making images not just of other gods but of their own God and the golden calf story becomes this sort of this classic instance of like idolatry and what it's about. And I think we're supposed to get the sort of the symbolism and the rationale and why it's appealing the Moses had gone up the mountain. Moses was perceived as the sort of connection with this God who's sort of mysterious but is revealing you know sort of the divine self and will and creating a relationship with his people and Moses had gone up the mountain and where is he? It doesn't seem like he's coming back and the people are down there waiting and they're scared. And when we're scared right because a God who can can take can can can vanish for a while and or seem to vanish right not not necessarily seems to be omnipresent or anything like that but you know see you know is not felt to be present and you have this person that you thought was your sort of your your your your link to the to God and that person now is no longer there. Life is disconcerting and worrying and we find that so uncomfortable that we look for things that will give us the illusion of certainty. And really that's what idolatry is about it's you know we can we can know that God is with us because we have this symbol of God's presence right and although the golden calf right it's a graven image in the classic you know literal sense and so it's clearly prohibited by the second you know second commandment they do this thing they make an image and it's explicitly said to be an image of Yahweh right so it's not another God it's it's God who brought them out out of Egypt and the next day they're gonna have a celebration a festival to Yahweh but in later times we see that the temple becomes an idol for instance right and Jeremiah criticizes people for saying the temple of the Lord the temple of the Lord you know God you know God will not let Jerusalem fall because you know God is on our side because this is where you know God's presence is you know we have the ark here we have the and so it's not just you know things like a golden calf that can become an idol. And I mean the Bible can become an idol right I mean it is quite literally to use a phrase that's used of idols it is quite literally the work of human hands right and one can say yes okay well but it's divinely inspired. Okay but it's the work of human hands right and that's the that's the phrase that's used for idols. But you know dogmas can images of God right are prohibited but our doctrinal images right are still attempts to imagine this is what God is like this is how we define God this is how we define what it means to relate to God. And all of that can be you know kind of as solid and as graven you know and as set in stone as literally things are literally set in stone. And so I think that's the real danger of idolatry is that you know these other forms of idolatry are ones that we could miss because they're not sort of literal idolatry. And in fundamentalism you'll talk about you know putting other things before God why is that warning never sort of applied to like the Bible or your your your church list of dogmas or anything like that, right? But those things at their best right images like the the image I don't I I'm not suggesting here that you know when a child in Sunday school tries to draw God it's like you've got to take it out and burn it and stone the child for breaking the second commandment or so you know as human beings we try you know we can't help but try to imagine we can't help but try to speak what we need is you know to accept the fact that even our best attempts at images are not going to do justice to God. And when we make these and we believe that these things are functioning as indicators of the divine presence or are representations of the divine then we mistake them for God and we imagine that God can't be or do anything other than or anywhere other than where the where this is. And so it's it's that constraining of a God that's infinite that I think is the real danger.

SPEAKER_00 27:55

Yeah I could say more about that because there's there's a lot of aspects to that yeah I I I do kind of want to you well you talk in your book about one of the dangers of those who deconstruct becoming just as closed-minded as the fundamentalism that they left behind. And so in essence deconstruction can if it's not done in the right way lead to a different sort of fundamentalism than the one that they left but it's a fundamentalism nonetheless where there's this this complete lack of desire even fear maybe of challenging any of the the positions that they now hold in distinction of the ones that they formerly hold. So just talk about the the dangers of deconstructing into another form of fundamentalism and why fundamental or and why uh deconstruction should make you more open-minded and curious yeah so it's um the examples that come to mind are ones that I've you know sort of engaged you know sometimes directly but often sort of indirectly through through things I've written in response to things others have written uh think of folks like the new atheists right who often you know it's like yeah I mean Richard Dawkins saying things like you know sort of like religion is bad always all the time kind of thing.

SPEAKER_01 29:05

And you know there are there are there are atheists who like I I don't believe I don't subscribe to Christianity but I recognize that as an atheist in a context that is culturally Christian, a lot of my values are shaped by this heritage and it's not all bad. There are people who've become atheists but who've tried to start sort of atheist churches because they're like you know the community was good. Okay, you know it's and it's that idea that okay this thing hurt me and deceived me. You know there were some things I was told that weren't true and I they were presented as the gospel truth literally and metaphorically and now I see you know that the package was not the pure unadulterated truth the way it was and so swing to the other side and say it's all lies it's all bad it's all you know and things are rarely that simple right and that's one of the things in in in history you know that you know the study of history brings to things is realizing that you can have a story that's a mixture of you know it's it's history overlaid with symbolism you know or there's it's history and there's but there are hints of legend in there things like that. The um the Jesus mythicists seem to me to be an example of of this pendulum swing thing where it's like they believed that this this is a divine figure walking the earth and that these texts are 100% true. And they do this pendulum swing to being you know you know not questioning okay could there be a like a historical figure who then you know there's development of doctrine around this figure and you know but it's like purely divine figure walking the earth who's clearly made up just like all the other divine figures that I now reject kind of thing. And this failure to investigate critically sort of the the type of thinking you know that sort of shaped your fundamentalism so that it expresses itself in in ways that are kind of in so in one sense diametrically opposed. It's like you know yes Jesus versus no Jesus but on the other hand the sort of the mentality and the types of argumentation uh the framework has not been examined and so when undergoing deconstruction I think it's important that one one look at look at it at you know sort of at as a system and look at the the foundational level and look at the components individually and evaluate them but also ask you know what what was the mentality and the values here and am I just you know shifting those into allegiance for you know a different camp rather than maybe rethink rethinking some of the values themselves.

SPEAKER_00 31:33

Yeah no I I I think I think that's a perfect description and again it's just something that everyone who undergoes this process of transformation has to be aware of um you also you you had a you had a a chapter or section of the book that's very near and dear to my heart and and in my adult life I have found my home in the Wesleyan tradition and one of the things I love about Wesleyanism is that we're very much action centered uh and and you talk in your book about how um when you go through that process of deconstruct construction your faith should transition to a more like action-oriented uh way of life and you you made this excellent point that I had never thought of before where you talk about how in the Bible we have Jesus's Sermon on the Mount Matthew five through seven and this is you know a call to people to or a call to you know to Israel to radically obey God and it's basically all about actions it's all about what you do and then fast forward a couple hundred years you get to the creeds and it's all about what to believe and that's actually a huge intellectual transformation within Christianity. So I want to talk to you about that how how do you think that that transition from action in the New Testament to like creeds and doctrines in the later patristic period how did that shape the church and then why should deconstruction lead to us wanting to to live out our faith to act yeah yeah and you know for those of us you know um it doesn't matter whether it's Baptist Wesleyan or Presbyterian Pentecostal anything else those who are within under the umbrella of Protestantism right have this uh awkward relationship with uh with works right because of this episode on faith and tried to try to be clear in in the book that you know there there there's there's there's something there that it's important to to cling to what I what I try to focus on is that the kind of faith that I think Paul was emphasizing is is that sort of trust in God.

SPEAKER_01 33:27

It's this sort of relationality it's reliance on God. It's not assertion that certain doctrines are true. Right. And one of the things that you know one can critique that form of of of religiosity in terms of from a Protestant perspective is that it basically turns you know passing a doctrinal exam into a a work that one does to earn one's own salvation right which you know is is is problematic right um Abraham would not have passed a Christian doctrine exam right I mean there's so many things that come along later that and so and yet for Paul he's the he's the paradigm of trust right the paradigm of faith and so clearly that's the the the faith that Paul's talking about is trust in God. And we could get into whole thing about you know what are the works that Paul is talking about and things like that. But ultimately I think there's this temptation to substitute you know affirming doctrine in the place of like loving one's enemies and doing these various things that Jesus called us to because to be honest however however um counterintuitive however seemingly paradoxical or irrational a set of beliefs are affirming them is easier than loving your enemies and so I think we actually do I mean I think this is another example of sort of trying to turn Christianity into something that we can you know say oh I did it you know I've and I'm confident now right yeah um and get ourselves into that place where it's you know and so I don't want to take away from that sense that you know Christianity is relational and in a relationship it's not about sort of earning you know and that's a classic Protestant critique right and that was that was the issue with the you know the older brother right that's the parable that we often talk call the parable of the prodigal son but it's actually a story about two sons and the older the older brother is the older son is the is the real point of it is that he's been living at home and obeying but he's understood this as you know I keep in line until you die and then I inherit everything whereas the and the the younger son precisely by rebelling and coming back eventually realizes oh this is this is about a relationship I I did worse than like waste my father's money I broke a relationship here. And I think we can keep that and in doing so can realize that what you do matters to preserving a relationship. It's not just you know I have I have these inner feelings of love towards my significant other that I never do anything about right that's not you know that's not how relationship works. And so I think that you know one of the things that's I think exciting about recovering this is that it has something to that can speak to that tendency to neglect like what we do in a Protestant context and to explore ways that we can that it can be integrated in ways that don't don't ultimately undermine the things that Protestantism has I think you emphasize that are are healthy and important and right.

SPEAKER_00 36:29

Yeah. And you also talk about the need for kind of reflecting on your personal experience but beyond that also being involved in a community and that both of those are essential to rebuilding your faith on a more solid ground.

SPEAKER_01 36:41

So what can our experience and then also the the you know I guess it really it's a discipline or a habit of being involved in a community what can those do to help us build a stronger faith yeah so I mean initially you know if you are if you have had the catastrophic um collapse of your worldview you have a community where they were like we love you we love you unconditionally and then you're like well I no longer subscribe to this view and it's like please leave yeah we're gonna show you the door and you feel hurt you know you need people who can relate to where you are now and who will kind of affirm you at that point in your journey. But in one's faith journey as in you know as in politics as in seeking information about medicine and science and you know economics and other things we can get into bubbles right we can surround ourselves just by people who will always say yeah no you're you're right you know those other people are the problem yeah uh and that's that's not good for us right I mean we need voices that challenge us. Um not necessarily the same ones that you know if you were surrounded by particular you know you need you definitely want to diversify and get some different ones but yeah it's not as though you leave behind that narrow fundamentalism and you reach this point where it's like now I've got all the answers and now it's all sorted out and now or now my faith is you know is is completely mature and I've got beyond all those narrow things then yeah it's a process. And having people who are different at different points in that process and people who disagree. The very act of talking across difference is one of the things that facilitates us learning humility, right? Which is is crucial to the life of faith and is a fundamental Christian virtue that Jesus taught. It's how we learn empathy right the attack on deconstruction has been gone hand in hand with an attack on empathy which has been just fascinating to watch you know people thinking these things that are you know are are woven into the sort of the teaching of Jesus and are there in the Bible and you know treating them as as as vices rather than verses virtues. But yeah so I mean I emphasize finding community but making sure that it's it's diverse community and if you can't find that locally then supplement it with online community and online community can be deeply meaningful right and so I absolutely you know finding online communities and multiple communities where you can have the kinds of conversations that will will help you grow and be challenged challenged and built up in in a balanced way so that you you make progress. We all need that. I mean if you're if you're if you're doing something as basic as learning to play an instrument you need to be challenged but affirmed right if you're not never affirmed you you will you'll give up and lose heart. If you're not challenged you're not making any progress. Why should faith and growing in faith be any different finding local community finding local community I think is is crucial just because you know there are some aspects of of living out you know our values and our commitments that one can't do in the same way and to the same extent online. Let's put it that way.

SPEAKER_00 39:53

Yeah no I I I completely agree with that. And I I do I did want to kind of talk to you a little bit about the politics of deconstruction because you bring it up in your book and it it is one of these issues that has like I mean think like everything in our society become so politicized that it's almost hard to have like a rational conversation about it. And I'm someone you know my my experience growing up in an evangelical church that was extremely heavily right wing and involved in Republican politics, I was kind of repulsed by that from a young age too. And then I wound up discovering libertarianism and that was kind of my solution I guess to the political problem that was posed by the evangelical church. But I've noticed and you bring this up in your book as well that when a lot of people go through the process of deconstruction they move from the political right to the political left which I just think that that's an interesting phenomenon and I want to get your take on that and I guess to kind of set this question up as you probably you might know back in the fall Earmans published a book called Why Christians should be leftist. And Phil Christman uh he's a an English professor at the University of Michigan he wrote the book I had him on my show to talk to him because I was just interested like I wanted to hear what his take was and we were able to have a really great conversation because we were you know like respectful to each other and um I learned a lot and I thought that it was really good is it was good and eye-opening and revealing to have like what you were saying before those kind of conversations across the aisle and since you kind of you in your book you say that you refer to yourself uh loosely as like a progressive or a liberal Christian I I I want to know what does that what does that label mean to you and then why do you think that when many people deconstruct, they deconstruct from the right to the left yeah and when I use the term you know talking about a progressive or liberal Christian you know that there are there there are like you know what we might call you know progressive or liberal evangelicals who like subscribe to all the classic doctrines but are sort of socially their view of you know how to do economics is is on the sort of progressive end of the spectrum.

SPEAKER_01 41:48

There are people who are you know politically you know and economically are much more it's like we should you know support uh business innovation and the the whole economy will benefit and that you know more to the right sort of in the terms of an economic vision for the society and yet whose doctrines are it's like you know you can believe whatever you want you know sort of thing so it's yeah and so uh these terms are are vague uh they are comparative um you know I mean I'd be interested to hear you know because you know we talk about sort of libertarianism as a as a vision sort of for politics and economics but you know what is a libertarian view of of of Christian faith like what might it mean to be a a sort of a libertarian with respect to that I mean is it you know do you have any thoughts on that?

SPEAKER_00 42:34

Yeah I mean for me the fundamental insight and and a lot of this came from reading like the work of Michael Gorman. His book Cruciformity had a huge impact on my spiritual life when I read it in college. And I I really do think that following Jesus means that you have to be consistently committed to nonviolence. And I think that libertarianism is at its heart based on the non-aggression principle which is the principle that you don't have the right to aggress against anyone else. And so when you aggregate that out into you know politics and economic transactions and things like that, libertarianism is just kind of the consistent implementation of nonviolence. And that's why it was so attractive to me as a Christian because it gave me and also the fact that I um you know I'm kind of insecure in my own intellect and that I I know that there's a lot of things that I don't know and I want to learn from people that are smarter than me. And so I don't want to be put in a position where I'm trying to impose my very limited mindset on other people. I'd rather just live in a society where people are kind of free to pursue their own ends and have conversations about that. And we can determine based on you know rational respectful conversation which ideas are true and which ideas are not. And so that was what really attracted me to it because I felt like with Jesus's teachings on nonviolence in particular that was the most politically and economically compatible with that.

SPEAKER_01 43:46

Yeah thank you and that's that's really helpful. I mean I think you know when it comes to you know sort of doctrine you know I think the the same approach should apply you know I mean Discuss, you know, try to persuade. You know, if you're convinced that you're right about this interpretation of this text or about how to practice you know following Jesus at society, discuss. And if if if you persuade lots of people, everybody wants to get on board and do this thing together of their own free will, then that's great. And if not, then you debate and try and see if you can figure out. And I think you know, here too, it's one of those places where you know the the pendulum swing, you know, just going to the uh you know other side of a of a particular perceived you know sort of ideological spectrum is unhelpful, right? Um particularly in an American context, because you know, as somebody who's lived in lived in uh Europe and in more than one country, the United States is not polarized if you put it in, you know. I mean, our two political parties, you put plop them down any major European democracy, and they will be sort of these two parties that would probably make an alliance in order to keep like the far right and the far left out, right? The communists and the Nazis, you know.

SPEAKER_00 45:03

I totally agree.

SPEAKER_01 45:11

Right? It's not as though, you know, well, if you if you cease to believe this, that, and the other, then you may as well be an atheist. It's like, yeah, why why not, you know, why not Episcopaliot who's a liberal and who doesn't subscribe to this, that, or the other? You know, why not uh you know, why why not Jewish? Why not Buddhist? Why not deist? Why not, you know, there are other options, and that's also true when it comes to political options and economic options. Uh so my wife uh grew up in in communist Romania, and you know, so she has a really interesting perspective on things, uh has a really interesting perspective on sort of authoritarianism in our prison context, which is fascinating. Um she thought she was done with certain things that now she's like, you know, really? You know, you're gonna have that here. Um on the other hand, you know, it's it's interesting to see how you know, as somebody who is part of a community, right, a Romanian Baptist, part of a community that was persecuted by the communist authorities, um, on the one hand, you know, she's not a fan of that, you know, that sort of ideology per se. On the other hand, some things that they said, you know, as by way of critiques of capitalism, you know, sort of to her as a Christian, you know, who grew up in that context, sort of ring true to her, you know, sort of in this, yeah. And so figuring out, you know, it's like, okay, so if if Eastern European communism, it's like not a good option, right? Hopefully, you know, you'd think that people would be able to agree on that. Right. Uh is the only is the only alternative, you know, unbridled capitalism. Well, just as we don't have among fundamentalists the full possible extreme of literalism, we don't have sort of completely unbridled capitalism in the scene. You know, there are things where we think, okay, it's better to manage this or it's better to put some limits on it, or you know. And again, coming back to the point about libertarianism and not opposing things by force, those are things where you know the the minority that had the sort of economic power sometimes objected to some of these limits on their pursuit of wealth. But the majority could sort of agree and eventually, you know, it's and came out through a democratic process. And so, you know, what are the what are the options that we're missing? Right? What are the things that we could do if, you know, and what are the other ideas that we might come up with if instead of just having the back and forth and the the shouting matches between you know a perceived, you know, perceived polar opposites, right? We actually have talked about things and we brainstormed and we we you know we compromise and we we came up with alternatives. That's like, okay, well, what you're what I what I think you're really trying to accomplish is this. And you know, I'm I'm on board with the idea. I just don't think that that's the way to accomplish it. You know, the reason I do this, it's like, yeah, well then we don't uh disagree on the thing we're trying to accomplish. Let's see if we can figure out which of these things works. Hey, look, neither of them works. You know, maybe we should try something else, you know. And so I think I think one of the dangers of the fundamentalism that you get on both sides of the political spectrum sometimes, right? Not always, but sometimes. And on both sides on different religious in different religious camps and different anti-religious camps, is that approach that way, it it'll lead you to miss options that are worth considering. And that's to everybody's detriment.

SPEAKER_00 48:29

Yeah. No, I I totally agree. And that goes back to what you were saying earlier about action and how significant that is for Christians. It's like if we follow the teachings of Jesus and we're commanded to love our neighbors and our enemies, then we should be open to having these conversations with people that are different than us. And I know, like, for me, like the big turning point for me, I I I had and still have, I guess, very traditional views on like sexuality and marriage. But I was in ministry in 2015 when the Obergerfeld decision was made for same-sex marriage. Um, and that was really the first time that I had ever really tried to think systematically about politics. And there were a lot of people in my traditional church that were very upset and scared about what was going to happen with that. But I came to the very unpopular conclusion that, like, regardless of what my particular views on human sexuality were, I don't really think that there's a place for me to impose that on people that don't share my worldview and that we're still called to like love everyone and treat them as the image-bearing people that we believe that they are. And so at that time I was like, you know, and I and I still agree with this. I was like, I don't see any problem with like legalizing this. Like I think it, I think it should be. And there were a lot of people that were very upset with me for taking that position, even as a traditionalist. Uh, but that just goes to show you that like I think that there are more nuanced ways to look at this and more humanizing ways to look at this. And we break outside of the black and white either or, um, that we we can actually have more productive conversations that like build people up and don't tear them down.

SPEAKER_01 50:00

Yeah. And as somebody who's settled in the Baptist tradition, um, you know, married a Romanian Baptist and it was it was pretty much set from there. Uh, but you know, one of the historic emphases of the Baptist in particular was separation of church and state, right? That when you have the state telling you you should you know practice your faith in this way and or trying to impose things from a it it becomes one you know one variety of faith doing that, which sometimes leads to Christians being persecuted, the Baptists are persecuted. Uh but yeah, it's it's fascinating that um so many people who identify themselves as you know, not just Christians but as Baptists are so eager to legislate for others to do things that you know are based in values that they don't share and a faith commitment that they don't share, you know, and it's you know, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 50:51

Yeah, yes, and and that was I I I had I had the opportunity, and he was really cool to me, but I had the opportunity to debate Stephen Wolfe, like one of the Christian nationalists, um, like one of the very prominent Christian nationalists. We did that a couple of years ago, and then I had him on my show to explain his position. Like I said, he was a really nice guy, very cool to me, everything like that. But that was the point that I kept on bringing up. It's like, okay, if you want to live in a society where the church gets to impose its values on everyone by force, well, what happens when your church loses and another church wins? Right? You know, like that's a really scary prospect. And I think that uh I think that we need to be able to get beyond that as a civilization, you know?

SPEAKER_02 51:24

Yeah.

unknown 51:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 51:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 51:26

I mean, I I've been saying for many years that it's like, you know, the people who are advocating for prayer in school, and then you know, the Protestants, it's like, yeah, so what did you learn in school today? Hail Mary, full of grace. It's like, wait, wait, wait. Oh, so you know, it's like, you know, um yeah, it's it's not as though, you know, and this is the other thing that I think you know connects the book with you know these other you know sort of areas of life that we've been talking about is that you know it's not about pursuing this one perfect worldview, right? We often imagine that we can have that, right? Um even if there was such a thing, our human you know, sort of uh alignment with it would be would be flawed because we are you know we have human problems. Um but you know worldviews are human constructions and they you know they can you know reflect the divine, point to the divine, but they're always gonna fall short. And the same the same is true with you know the uh solutions to questions of like religious freedom. Like is uh the attempt to keep church and saints separate, it's like that is so messy, and how do you even do that when you have somebody who's a person of faith and is elected? It's like, what does that even look like? And of course their faith is is affecting how they, you know. Uh but it's better than some of the other options, right?

SPEAKER_02 52:44

Right, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 52:45

And there may be better options still that we you know have yet to think of. And so we should always, on the one hand, be you know not shutting down that you know, it's like, well, this is this is an imperfect solution. It's like, okay, but it's a solution, and it's you know, let's you know, maybe we should try it. If it's too imperfect and it has like lots of shortcomings, and you know, this this new worldview that you're building is is gonna be just as shoddy as the one that collapsed around you and it's gonna hurt you again, then think creatively, right? And you know, if we had more of us doing that in terms of of doctrine and in terms of community and in terms of how we love our neighbors and how we care for you know the you know those who uh are are vulnerable in our society and all of these things, who knows what we might come up with, right? But because we tend to you know rally around you know the the creeds, the dogmas, the symbols, whatever it is, the communities that we already have, we often we we stagnate. And one of the things you learn from studying the history of the church is just how you know the fact that if you were to put take Paul and put him in a time machine and drop him in a mega church, I mean he'd be like, you know, whoa, what is this? You know, um there'd be things he'd recognize, but there'd also be some things where he'd be like, a lot has changed since my time, right?

SPEAKER_02 54:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 54:04

And you faith is not static. It's not supposed to be static, it can't be static. And being open to the fact that we have we we have to grow, right? If we have a healthy faith and a healthy relationship. And that you are our thinking about politics, economics, biblical interpretation, you being a scholar, right, is is about trying to see are there are there new ideas we haven't tried out yet? And that's what I try to do. And sometimes I'll be wrong, but I think trying out new ideas is is generative and is is is helpful um in moving discussions forward. And really, I think that that's one reason why I felt like there's a close connection between my my academic work and my academic trajectory in this book. It's not just that studying the Bible academically challenged some of my assumptions about the Bible, but I think that some of the skills that I've I've been learning to uh focus on and try to develop as a scholar are applicable to the life of faith, right? Like trying to approach it creatively, uh trying to remain open-minded while still trying to figure out what you think for yourself and you know, not lacking conviction, but still being open to changing your mind. I I think I think that there are things that the life of faith can learn from that.

SPEAKER_00 55:20

Yeah, oh, I I couldn't agree more with that. Well, James, we're almost at the end of our time today. Um, man, this is this has been great, and I've I've gained a lot of perspective from this as well. And I highly recommend everyone in my audience check out your book. I just have one more question for you. Um, and there are a lot of people that listen to this show that have big questions about their faith. And I know because I've I've talked to them that there are there are some people that in my audience that are like brand new to Christianity, right? Like they've just discovered it in the last couple of years, and so they're like building up from scratch. They didn't have to deconstruct anything, there was nothing there, and they're and they're working on on constructing their faith. So I want to ask you, what advice would you give to people that are trying to either build or for the first time or rebuild their faith that might help them get through that process?

SPEAKER_01 56:04

Yeah. Um so I mean, my advice to those who are just starting out is you know that you don't have to build something narrow. But on the other hand, starting with things and just taking those things is is is is fine, right? Um there's a need for, you know, if you get a sort of a prefabricated house, you may find that some of the things that you inherit, you know, in that, you know, the workmanship was not as great. Looks like you've you've got some experience of this, right? Um, if you get one that's you know been around for a long time, you know, it's it stood the test of time, that says something for it. But on the other hand, you know, how well has it been kept up and things like that? Um, are there updates needed for it to be in code and things like that? You know, the things that we learn as homeowners. And so if you're just starting out, it's okay to just enjoy this new house that you're in, you know, and that's fine. Uh if you approach it as something where this is not just finding all the answers to all your questions definitively once for all, but the start of a journey where some of the things that you hear are going to be you know answers that you're gonna be perfectly happy with for the rest of your life, and some of them may not be, right? And that you're figuring out which is which is an expression of your faith, right? Because if if you make uh the thing that I think is true across the board is if you make central to your faith, seeking God with all your heart, all your mind, all your soul, right, seeking to love God and to know God, uh, while recognizing that our human minds, right, God is is you know beyond what we can grasp, right? That the the love of God is is is too deep, too wide, too, you know, this imagery is there in the Bible, then you can approach it in a way that will know that you know there needs to be room for growth and that you're never going to have you know answers that are going to absolutely encapsulate God and tie up all the loose hands, right? It's there's always going to be this room for more, no matter how much you grow. If you approach it that way, then I think that will avoid you needing to have that sort of catastrophic experience of faith collapse. Uh, because as you learn something new and it challenges what you thought was true, instead of that being, oh no, my faith is being shaken, it's like, oh great, I'm growing in my faith and I'm growing in my knowledge of the Bible, and that can be a positive thing. Um, and sometimes it's it's challenging, right? You think about growing from childhood, you know, we get things you know that are presented to us quite simply. Most people don't have a traumatic experience when you discover that you know history is you know, you you were at one point you were given a bunch of dates and names and told to this is the truth, and then you find out that there's this whole messy process in figuring out you know, how do we know that stuff and how much is certain and how you know. And you know, enjoy that discovery, right? Um, another thing I'd recommend I think is true across the board is be, you know, be faithful to sort of where you are at the moment and recognize that that's probably where you need to be, you know, and there's but be open to the possibility that you know you might be ready to take another step, but you know, don't don't assume that you have to rush to be somewhere else and you know because someone else is there. We're not all at the same point on our journey. And one of the one of the things that often happens is that we forget what we were like in the past. And so, you know, you can have a conversation with someone and forget that, you know, okay, if me now was somebody else having this conversation with me, you know, 30 years ago or whatever it was, or something like that, or 20 years ago, or you know, I would have said, you know, you're a heretic, you know, get out of my face, right? And so, or you know, possibly, right? Not necessarily, right? Depends what the conversation is about. But we can forget, you know, how avid we were, how sure we were, um, how how how close we were to hearing other perspectives. And that doesn't mean that we shouldn't have those conversations, but I think we can approach them differently and say, how could someone have said something then that would have helped me at least start on a process of thinking more deeply about this thing, that then I was, you know, I was I was just set in my ways and you know not open. And so just remembering where we've been and recognizing that not everybody has to be where I am. Uh the other thing is that you know you you don't want to you don't want to spend all of your time wallowing in you know complaining about you know what was uh that's not healthy. And you don't want to move too quickly, right? If you have had a loss of feet, you don't want to move too quickly to what you know I sometimes refer to as a rebound worldview, where it's like, look, this worldview has all the things that the other one was, you know, let me down on, and so it's gonna be good. Uh anyone who's, you know, and I've never done that in like a romantic relationship, so I can't speak to it, but I imagine that you know you look for somebody who's the opposite in those ways that just didn't work with that previous relationship. And then this other person you find, okay, but then they have these other things, right? Right. Because we're all human, and that's always gonna be the case. And so again, not expecting, you know, take take your time with it, you know, take it slow, be thoughtful, um, look at details and recognize that even if you do find a new worldview and you're like, okay, I've I've switched to, you know, I'm gonna go to this church now because they seem to be doing this better, and you find things that you're disappointed with, don't just say, okay, now I have to find another church because I'm disappointed about that. Talk with people, right? Sometimes people be like, wow, that's a great idea. We should totally do that, right? And so uh just be, you know, if you start out in a very narrow form of Christianity, one of the things that you can miss is that there are some subcommunities you could be part of where people be like, oh, I love that idea. Yeah, we've never done that before, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't try it, right? Let's have our breakfast and invite people from the community, let's do a whatever. And so, you know, being prepared to be surprised, you know, pleasantly surprised by new communities and new people that you find. Um, just because people let you down doesn't mean everyone will let you down. Just because worldviews are uh imperfect doesn't mean that you know no worldview, like no house, you know, could could serve a useful purpose for a particular phase in your life. Uh those those are some of the things that I would share.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:12

Um Yeah. Well, James, I really appreciate that. Um you have a very prolific career. You've read you've uh you've released a lot of books. I'm gonna put in the show notes links to uh the books that you have had in the past, but for people that are for uh the interviews I've done with you on the past uh and some of some of those books, but for those people that are interested in finding you, following you, finding your work, where would you send them?

SPEAKER_01 1:02:37

Yeah, so I'm online in most places as Religion Prof. I mean, that was um that was what my Twitter handle for a long time. And then when I realized that people weren't getting the uh matrix reference in the original title for my blog, I changed it to religion prof. And so if you search like Religion Prof, James McGrath, you'll find my often if you just type Religion Prof and when Google says, Did you mean religion space prof, you say no, you'll probably find me. So yeah, do connect with me. And the the one thing I want to say is that you know it really brings back to sort of where we started, you know, or at least where we got early on in our conversation. Authors actually really find it meaningful when we hear from people who read what we write and find out that it was meaningful to them and it was helpful to them. And so if this book was helpful, you know, I mean, things like Amazon reviews are always appreciated too, you know. But but just you know, send something, you know, contact me on Twitter or on my blog or via email and you know, just let me know. Uh because you know the reason I keep writing books is because I keep hearing from people who say, okay, that was that was helpful, that was interesting, that was worth, you know, worth I'm glad you wrote it. Um and so we'd really love to hear from people.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:49

Perfect. Well, James, uh thanks again for coming on the show today.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:53

Thanks again, Alex. It's been a wonderful conversation, as always.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:56

Thank you for listening to another episode of the Protestant Libertarian Podcast. If you have any questions or comments, please reach out to me at theprotestantlibertarian at gmail.com. You can also find me on Twitter. Follow me at the handle at Pro Liberty Pod. Again, that is at Pro Liberty Pod. And you can also visit me at the Protestant Libertarian Podcast.com. At the Protestant Libertarian Podcast.com. Also support the Christian Liberty Network and the Libertarian Christian Network. Thank you guys so much for listening to this episode, and we will see you next time.