Ep 271: The Biblical Ethics of Possessions and Wealth with Carl-Magnus Carlstein

In this episode I talk with Dr. Carl-Magnus Carlstein, lecturer on Biblical Studies at Linkoping University, Sweden, about the contribution he contributed with co-author Rebekah Eklund in New Testament Ethics, out now on Eerdmans, which explores the ethics of possessions and wealth in the New Testament. We discuss the often-neglected topic of possessions, why many Christians are uncomfortable with this topic, and why it is so significant to the New Testament. Carl explains why Luke has a unique take on this subject, how Christians tend to emphasize either radical renunciation or charity as the models for thinking about the ethics of wealth, and how Jesus is more concerned with intentions, moral formation, and the heart. We then look at four passages in Luke’s gospel which address the issue of wealth and possessions, show how in case after case Jesus is concerned with the disposition of those who possess wealth and how we must be transformed to use wealth properly. Finally, we discuss how the church can implement this vision today and cultivate healthy, God-honoring motivations towards what we possess. 

Media Referenced:

New Testament Ethics: https://a.co/d/02cjLNET

Dr. Carlstein: https://liu.se/en/employee/carca26

Dr. Eklund: https://www.loyola.edu/academics/theology/faculty/directory/eklund-rebekah.html

Episode on Barclay, Wealth, and the New Testament: https://libertarianchristians.com/episode/ep-260-wealth-and-the-new-testament-a-response-to-john-barclay/

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Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

This is the Protestant Libertarian Podcast, a project of the Libertarian Christian Institute and part of the Christians for Liberty Network. I really hope that you guys enjoy today's show. All right, guys, welcome to another episode of the Protestant Libertarian Podcast. My guest today is Dr. Carl Magnus Karlstein, lecturer on biblical studies at Linkaping University in Sweden. He co-authored a contribution to the New Testament Ethics Books recently published by Eerdmans entitled The Ethics of Possessions, which explores what the New Testament says about how believers ought to manage their material possessions. We will be discussing this contribution on the show today. Carl, welcome to the Protestant Libertarian Podcast.

SPEAKER_01 0:42

Thank you. Thanks for having me.

SPEAKER_00 0:45

Yeah, and I wanted to make a point at the beginning of the show, and I know you're going to probably uh address this here in just a minute, but uh Dr. Rebecca Eklund was the co-author for this article with you, and she has an illness, unfortunately, and couldn't be with us today. Um, but I wanted to give her full credit as well. I think you guys wrote an excellent contribution to the book. But this is my first time being introduced to your work. Uh, and so my audience is obviously going to be unfamiliar with you and your scholarship. So before we begin, tell us about yourself, your background, and your work.

SPEAKER_01 1:12

Yeah, sure. So you probably heard already on my accent that I am I'm not a I'm from Sweden and I'm not uh Native American or from America. So my background is this. So I studied first to become a computer programmer, and during this time at the university, uh I started reading a lot of theology simply to uh survive in my faith or something like that. I had to grapple with what's going on and how to live as a Christian in this new setting. So after a while, after working as a programmer for a while, I kind of switched track and ended up teaching biblical study now for something like 20 years now. So in the past 10 years, it's been in Lynn Schoping University, which is a state in the sense, federal state university in Sweden, a small country up north uh in Europe. Uh and so my work, I written most I written some theological commentaries on Galatian, Philippians, and Acts, unfortunately in Swedish for some of your listeners, most of your listeners, I suppose. Uh, and I'm currently working on various aspects, I would say, on Luke's ethics. So this piece on possession in Luke's gospel is one aspect of that. And church-wise, I'm born and raised in a charismatic Baptist denomination. I don't know if that's charismatic and Baptist doesn't usually go together, but in this is a sort of background, is that it's a small free church who broke out uh in the what is it, 1907, uh after the Pentecostal revival movement came to Sweden from the Big B Baptist Church or denomination. So it's nowadays called in English Evangelical Free Church. So that's it. Basically, my my brief background. I might also say something about Rebecca, my co-writer, Rebecca Eklund, uh Swedish sounding last name, too. And um and she's an ordained minister in the Evangelical Covenant Church in the US and a professor at Loyola University, Maryland in Baltimore. And if you haven't, if you're not familiar with her work, uh uh I can warmly recommend her fantastic book on the Beatitudes. It's uh it's on Eerdmans too. So it's a really lovely book if you want to read something by Rebecca.

SPEAKER_00 3:41

Um Yeah, well, we appreciate the introduction there. Um the New Testament Ethics book is really interesting because it is a uh we can't really say an update or revised version of Richard Hayes' book on ethics, but it's kind of a revisiting of a lot of the subjects there. So uh obviously you and Dr. Eklund wrote the contribution on the biblical ethics of possession. So talk to us about the purpose of this book more broadly and why the two of you chose to write on this particular issue.

SPEAKER_01 4:07

Yeah. So as you said, or implied uh the volume on Erdman's, it's kind of celebrates the 30th anniversary of Richard Hayes'. I don't know, really famous book, I think. It's well, many people have read it in the States, I suppose, and in Europe and Sweden, like theologian and pastors have read it. So like a really famous book on New Testament ethics. So the idea was to engage this important work and um from this different perspectives, critically engaging it and and trying to discuss its its legacy and how it's you know how how has it fared uh during the years. And there, I mean, there are wonderful essays in this piece on on uh method, on specific biblical texts, but also on specific moral themes like possession or or something like that. So uh yeah, I can highly recommend it. I mean, you have scholars like Amy Peeler, Walter Mobley, John Barclay, and others who's writing great essays there, and others too, of course. So yeah, so that's the background. And and the background for our article is that Rebecca was asked, uh my co-writer was asked to contribute to this volume. And so, and she invited me to join her, and the reason behind that is that we has been Rebecca and I, together with another friend, we've been having these Luke and Zooms, we call them, for several several years now, where we just meet together like every month and discuss something about Luke's gospel. So we wanted to write on Luke, and it's also interesting that Hayes in his book just briefly uh discusses possessions only in a f only a few pages, and he's admits that that's a little bit problematic because you know it's such a great theme or such an important theme in the New Testament, and especially in in the gospel of Luke and Acts. So if we have if we can't you know treat or discuss all authors in New Testament, why not pick Luke and discuss this issue of possessions? And by possession, maybe I should say this at the outset. I mean something like monetary and material goods, you know, stuff, both monetary and and others, other goods.

SPEAKER_00 6:38

Yeah, yeah. Well, and and you make the point in your article, too, that this is a very underexplored aspect of the New Testament, and even in like Lucan studies. And I have just gotten the sense, too, from being in the church for most of my life that there are a lot of Christians that read the Bible but don't pick up on this theme. And it's pretty apparent when you read through the New Testament that how believers manage what they have is a massive theme. So, why do you think that this has been underexplored, both the New Testament scholarship and then at the popular level as well?

SPEAKER_01 7:10

Well, I I think it's more underexplored on the popular, popular level. I in especially in relation to Luke's gospel, I think there's a lot of research and books on it. Um so I think that that might be more on the popular level. And the reason for this, I think, is the same reason that Hayes didn't write on it. He he feels uncomfortable uh treating this theme. It it's difficult as a especially if you're a middle class or you have a little bit nice big house or something like that. It's it's difficult to know what to do with all these texts. Sell all your possessions, says Jesus in in the Gospel of Luke. What are you supposed to do with that? So I think it's a it's a difficult issue, and it's a it's an issue that hits home, as it were. You know, it comes close to you, it's not something out there, and well, we can discuss this um in an abstract neutral sense because it is like it it comes close to to your regular daily life.

SPEAKER_00 8:18

Yeah. And you you mentioned that you emphasized the gospel of Luke. Now there are three synoptic gospels, and Jesus talks about possession in all three of them. What makes Luke a rich starting point for having this conversation about possessions in the New Testament?

SPEAKER_01 8:33

Yeah, he's famous for treating this theme more than the other gospels. Uh so he has material that Mark and Matthew does do not have on this subject. So more more stuff in in Luke in brief.

SPEAKER_00 8:50

Yeah, and I want to ask you about that real quick, too, because I've done a lot of with, you know, they uh Eerdman's release The Next Quest for the Historical Jesus book back in the fall of 2024. And then they've also, in the last year and a half, released the book by James Barker that looks at uh synoptic trajectories and then Mark Goodacre's book, The Fourth Synoptic Gospel. Uh, and they talk about kind of the literary relationship between the gospels and how the tradition developed and everything like that. And so I wonder if you have a theory as to like, well, so why is it that, and I and I don't know what your thoughts are on Goodacre and Barker's thesis. I tend to agree with them. Um, but if Luke did know Mark and Matthew, why would he choose to emphasize this particular issue um in a way that was a little bit more robust than what we get in the first two synoptic gospels? Or maybe you don't even agree with that paradigm. I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 9:36

Yeah. Yeah, I mean, no, no, I also like Goodaker's uh pharaoh thesis. I tend to uh agree with him that Luke used Mark and Matthew, so I I'm with you there. But yeah, it's very difficult. I mean, we can we can only speculate. Uh I say one speculation is that that Luke is is you know among the rich because his his level of education seems much higher when you read the text. So that might be one um explanation. I even read this, I got this book the other day who suggests that that Luke perhaps has had some connection to Rome, you know, the center of the empire and stuff like that. So it might be that he's he's moving among more or less rich people and therefore sees this as an especially important uh subject matter. Uh but but it it's it's very difficult to say, um, I think.

SPEAKER_00 10:36

And yeah, and I I think we'll probably be arguing about that and studying it for the rest of eternity, you know. It's just very difficult issues to parse out. Um, but you do you guys do talk about in your your contribution how in scholarship, when people think about the ethics of possession, when scholars think about the ethics of possession, they tend to gravitate towards one of two poles. One of those is that we are supposed to be committed to radical generosity. And the other one, on the other hand, is that we need to be um kind of committed to radical renunciation of our possessions. So I want you to talk about why it is that those two themes are the ones that have been emphasized in scholarship.

SPEAKER_01 11:14

Yeah. So so scholars reading, I mean, any gospel really, but also gospel of Luke, of course, they note that there's Luke does not recommend one single way of handling possession. It seems at least. Um because in some texts, Luke shows how people leave everything, and that's the renunciation part. They leave everything behind, all most things behind, and follow Jesus. And and become almost as uh itinerant followers. They move around, they don't have they are homeless in this sense. Um and we have texts such as Luke 14, 33, which says, None of you can become my disciple if you do not give up all your possession. So that's the radical renunciation. Yet in other texts, Luke presumes that people, how should we put it, have a localized life of ongoing sharing. I mean, they have a home, they have possessions that they can share. Um and Sacchaeus in Luke 19 is a sort of standard example of this. Um he gives generously, but he does not sell everything and leave his home, uh, it seems. So in fact, are we if we are to be more nuanced, I think we have more than two different options here. There are a variety of ways in Acts 2. If we add acts, you know, there's common pooling of resources, resources, which is another way. But but typically Hayes and other scholars group all these different ways of handling possessions in Luke's Gospel and elsewhere into two different stances or models or or ways of life, you know. And and they call them something. This is the terminology we use is from Hayes, so radical renunciation and generous sharing is his terms or his words. So that's the basic two. And the question then becomes you know, what does Luke teach us? You cannot both leave everything behind and have possessions to continuously give. So w what what does Luke recommend to his audience? And and I mean can you somehow resolve this tension between two different uh uh ways of handling possessions? I mean, so that's the two that's that's the the discussion in scholarship, I would say, in one way or the other, that's that's the interpretive problem that people uh struggle with. And and in our uh in our essay, we uh we simplify a little bit and and and say that there are two basic solutions to this interpretive problem. The one is what we call a a rule of distribution, and it's it's basically this that uh Luke presumes this is what this is sort of an interpretation, a way of resolving the tension. So so what people what scholars say is that Luke presumes that most of his audience have homes or are perhaps even rich. And and he therefore generous therefore recommends that they are to be generous, generous and share and give their possessions, and and and then you know imply something like this that the the radical renunciation belongs to the time of Jesus, but now we have another time and another situation. That would be one way to resolving it. But it's still you know, do this, give or redistribute possessions. And the other one is now the common solution to the problem is is what we call a principle renunciation. And here how how can you solve this seemingly seeming tension between two different ways of handling possession? Well, here the solution is that renounciation is a principle with many different applications depending on vocation, wealth, and other things. So so you renounce by the so-called radical renounciation, leaving everything behind, but you also renounce by sharing, giving up possessions. So that's the basic two um two positions, I would say, are solutions to the to this difficult interpretive problem. And and so we for us, I think, uh for Rebecca and I when we wrote this, uh for us, I think the first solution tends to relegate radical renunciation the renunciation to bygone era. You don't have to you have the you don't have to do that anymore. Well, uh maybe that I don't know. It doesn't seem like Luke thinks that is only in in the past or something to the time of Jesus, something like that. And the second solution tends, we think, reduce everything to renunciation. Uh yeah. But so so we for us we we asked, you know, is isn't there another way beyond these two solutions? Can there be something else that can explain why Luke I mean he doesn't he doesn't uh excuse himself or say, you know, excuse I'm sorry, I'm I'm I'm presenting very different kinds of of uh ways of handling possession. He just like narrates this without any any hint that he thinks this is a contradictory thing. So so our question is can we find some kind of other thing that explains this? Um so I mean so that's that's where our article started. I'm not sure we uh the reader I suppose have to judge if we succeeded or not, but but yeah, that's the starting point of the article, I think.

SPEAKER_00 17:05

Yeah, and well, I think one of the problems that you guys identify with those approaches is that they both focus on action um and like rules, right? Like and and it's very understandable from a Christian perspective because we we would like we would like the Bible to just give us rules, right? Uh, you know, we want to know, okay, God, what do you want us to do with the things that we have? Uh, and does the Bible just give us rules that tell us what to do in all times and all situations? And so I think you make the point that one of the one of the problems with this conversation is that we tend to come to the text with this assumption that it's all about specific rules that lead to specific actions. And I just kind of wanted to give you uh a chance to speak on that before we start looking at the solution to this problem because I do think that is a really pervasive way, uh, and understandably so, but a very pervasive way of understanding the ethics of possession.

SPEAKER_01 17:52

Yeah, yeah, that's true. So so so what what happened is that in in Hayes' book, uh he he distinguishes between four modes of ethical discourse are the rules, other principles, and you know, this we've been already talking about rules and principles, but he also talks about exemplars or paradigms or models, which term we ever like, and fourth, symbolic worlds, which is basically uh you know the the vision of the the good life that that are painted and then he says this which caught our attention most of the texts on on on possessions in Luke's gospel, for example, it just talk mainly in the mode of exemplars and symbolic worlds. So that got our our thing that started our thinking. What's what's going on here? And and we noted at the same time that scholars tend to do to focus on the rules and principle, which we say is something like you know, we try to find keywords to sort of map this out. So we we frame this as information about what to do. You know, I have inf I have a rule, I have information saying what to do, and I do it, or I have a in a principle that I need to uh apply somehow. And the underlying assumption here about moral life and what ethics is, or something like that, is that you know if you have the right information you will act rightly. And well, is that really the case? Uh I'm not sure. I mean there's a long tradition of virtue ethics, too. And I'm not sure how well your listeners are familiar with virtue ethics, but it's it's focusing on on like moral character, uh like virtues, dispositions, moral reflexes, desires, and our hunger for things. And and this tradition suggests that moral character is not only formed in communal practices, we look at examples and follow them, and in doing so, we are shaped in certain ways. They also suggest that the heart, or which is another term for for the moral character, moral characters motivate us, like it gets us going. Um it gets us, you know, we search, we seek for things, we hunger, uh, we love things, we desire them. And and for our for us, we might this be an a bit more deeper understanding of moral agency, or or like a sort of richer understanding of moral life that that can perhaps explain what's going on here in Luke's gospel. So this is what we this is what we call that's why we use the term, instead of focusing on information about what to do, we try to see what Luke says about formation and motivation. And and as I said, the the sort of premise or idea behind this is that your heart, in the sense of moral character, drives you, gets you going, but it also directs you towards some sort of end or a vision of life that you're trying to fulfill. Can this be a way of of moving past the interpretive impasse or you know trying to resolve this tension between radical renunciation and and generous sharing? Yeah, so that's perhaps that we can go more into that if you want, but but yeah, that's uh this short summary of it, I think.

SPEAKER_00 21:53

Yeah, and I I mean I think in in general, people understand, and especially if you look at like Matthew chapter five in the Sermon on the Mount, that Jesus. His teachings are very much concerned with intention and the motives of the heart. But it's like you argue in your article, when it comes to possessions, it's just been about rules, right? Like, like we're not as concerned about our internal disposition. And I think that it's it's really helpful that you and Dr. Eklund flip the script on this and make the point that any sort of analysis of the ethics of possession in the New Testament has to begin with intentions and moral formation before we can even talk about like rules and principles. So, yeah, I think before we get into some specific text in Luke, just talk about that. Like, why is why is focusing on intention and moral formation uh a better way of approaching the New Testament than simply rules and applications?

SPEAKER_01 22:40

Yeah, I mean, there's uh different reasons, but maybe I should start with an example like uh to help us understand a little bit. So a few years back, uh I listened to public radio. Uh in Sweden we have public radio. So if you maybe think of BBC in the UK or something like that, which means that's not private and not commercial radio, and but state funded and yet independent of party politics. So this is public radio. So every summer, this is a tradition in Sweden, every summer, you know, famous people, politicians, authors, artists, and so on, even soccer players, you know, they they they they are giving an hour to talk about their lives and so on. So this summer I listened to one of the shows or the programs by Greta Thunberg. Greta, some might know her as an environmental activist or something like that, a Swedish young woman. And she talked passionately about the climate and provided like tons of information about you know research and everything. And afterwards I thought, isn't she assuming that if we all are informed about the problem, about climate change, you know, we have a lot of discussion about what to do there, but for the sake of the argument, just go with me here. If we have all the information about the problem, we're gonna solve it. And I was thinking, well, I think I already know most of the things she she told me, but I still don't want to.

SPEAKER_00 24:10

Right.

SPEAKER_01 24:11

Yeah. The problem is not that I have I I mean I have the information, but I think my life is gonna be ruined if I do some things that she suggests, like stop flying and stuff like that. So maybe there's more to morality than being properly informed. I mean, it's about motivation, what I want and what I don't want, what what captivates my imagination, what what gets me going, uh, what what what what I hunger for, what I love. Uh and it's it's more um and that's something else than being provided and a rule to follow. And and this is a sort of other framework. So that's why that's one reason why why we we we started to explore this avenue of formation and and motivation because yeah, it's it's it's almost like our our biology a little bit. I mean, uh our but our biology is a lot of it's a lot on on autopilot. I don't have to think every time I breathe, or I don't have to think, you know, let's heart let the heart beat now. Like, oh no, what if what if it stops, you know? No, it's basically autopilot, and we automatically, we even automatically react react to threats, you know. We we get into this sort of flight, flight and freeze mode.

SPEAKER_00 25:38

Uh right.

SPEAKER_01 25:40

And and and moral character is a little bit like that. Uh it's a sort of second nature, it's not biology in that sense, but it's a sort of a like a second nature, it's like a moral autopilot, a sort of instinct and reflex. So when I when I when I have a conf conflict at work with someone, uh or you know uh uh or find myself in another difficult situation, I I I usually don't go to my desk and start like calculating or thinking what rule I should now follow. Um I simply react out of my moral reflexes. Um so we so what we thought, uh Rebecca and I, what happens if we try to discuss or resolve this distinct this tension, I seem I don't know, something like a tension between radio renunciation and general sharing, not primarily in terms of information. I mean information is good, it's it's not bad, it's it's not should be played out against formation and and motivation. But what if it's not primarily about rules and principle, about how your whole being is is oriented toward the kingdom or not, uh, or perhaps a little bit of both, and and you're conflicted in all sorts of way. So that that's perhaps even I mean, we've been talking a little bit, perhaps this is a long uh elaboration of this, but I think it it needs to be said that because we're so we're so used to thinking in rules and principle, I think, and less uh comfortable with talking about uh like virtue ethics. So another example would be like let's say you you get a job in another city. How how you know if you think about rules, you think, is there any rules that says that we cannot move? The virtue ethics is another question. What sort of people will we become if we move? Yeah, would you would we like that to happen or not? Perhaps yes, perhaps no. So so there's a different way of thinking that I I at least for my students when I teach uh they have a little bit of a problem of getting into it. But we're yeah, that I think that's the the background uh of of it all.

SPEAKER_00 28:10

Yeah, and you guys uh explore four passages from Luke in your uh in your contribution. And I want to look at each of those in turn because I think you've done a great job of setting us up for okay, if we if we approach Luke outside of the paradigm of rules and regulations and look at these passages more about the intention of the heart, then I think that this really unlocks some of these passages. So there are two from Luke 12 and two from Luke 16. So the first one that I want to take a look at, because you guys discussed it first in your book, is Luke 12, 13 through 21. And this is the tradition that begins with the conversation about the brothers' inheritance. So talk to us about this passage and what's going on here.

SPEAKER_01 28:51

Yeah, so there's uh two brothers who are discussing or quarreling, having a conflict, uh, and they come to Jesus and and and Jesus uh discerns uh at least from Luke's perspective, what's going on here. And he doesn't, you know, he does he could have talked about, you know, guys, you need to follow the right rules here. Don't you don't you th know about the Torah and what it says there and there? But he doesn't. He says, well, this he he frames their conflict in terms of greed. And greed here is is a disposition or a or a vice of the heart, you know, something something that motivates you to act in a certain way. So that's really interesting, I think, that he he he focuses not on it's not that Jesus is you know doesn't care about behavior, of course, but he he goes deeper. Where is the source? Where does it come from? What what what motivates this conflict greed, he says, and then he gives this parable parable about a extra a rich person, um and uh and he he he uh has this enormous uh crop. It's it's like an enormous giant gift to him. And it it sort of um exposes what's in his heart. He he has this there's a narrative technique which is like talks to himself, this interior monologue, and that's it's that's that's a typical way for Luke to sort of open a window into what people are, you know, in what's happening inside of people, what what's in their heart and and and how they plan and how they they long. And so and he can't he can't imagine anything else than you know, well, let's build new barns and collect it all. Uh and and in this way, I think he looks trying to show how how greed is a is a it it's something that is formed over time, but it's also largely unconscious drive. So so he just like he does just he doesn't sit down again at at the desk, calculate, or you know, think he just kind of like reacts, plans and reacts or reacts and plans and and without really realizing that he the greed orients him toward you know putting possessions, goods, making that the ultimate goal of life instead of God. So and and yeah, yeah, so that's that's really interesting because what happens here is that you that Jesus in this in this text is focusing on on the heart and how it's oriented toward toward God or toward something else, and which is idolatry then. I mean putting something else in the place of God becomes idolatry, with which is not an abstract thing, it it is it's seen clearly in behavior and how you prioritize things things and and and in and and and how how you act. Um so that's uh I don't know what else we need to say about this uh this text. Um yeah, maybe maybe that yeah, perhaps we should say that also that it's I mean he's he's this rich man in the parallel, but he seems he seems just captivated, you know. He's it's it's not a it's not it it it's more about something you know aesthetic than than than something you like you decide. He's sort of captivated by a a vision of life where he cannot imagine any other life than you know eating, drinking, and being merry. I mean, that's what and so so the solution for for his problem is not to say, Well, come on, let's follow another rule. I mean, no, he it doesn't make sense to him because he's so captivated by this vision of life. I think that might perhaps translate into our lives too. We we are captivated by certain ways of living, which makes certain things seem very the very thing to do, you know, the obvious thing to do while other things seem like really strange and weird.

SPEAKER_00 33:38

Um yeah, and it's it's pretty wild too. And this is where we go back to, and I I know I talk about this a lot on the show because I'm interested in the synoptic problem, but this is where we go back to one of these ideas about like, well, uh what Luke Luke is going to immediately follow this tradition up with a passage that comes from Matthew chapter six in the Sermon on the Mount. And so if you know Barker and Goodacre are correct and Luke knows Matthew, then he's clearly taking some of Matthew's material and putting it in the a larger context of a discussion about possessions. And I think that this next one, where Jesus more or less commands his audience to uh worry about like nothing, like possessions should not be the thing that animates you uh and and that motivates you to act. It's really interesting how he's taken this tradition and then framed it. So let's take a look at Luke 12, 22 through 34, um, where Jesus says, uh, you know, like, and this is, I think, kind of like what you were saying earlier about McClimate stuff, uh, this is something, it's a hard pill to swallow for a lot of people in the modern Western world because it just seems to cut so much against the grain of our expectations about how we manage our possessions. So, what's going on in Luke 12, 22 through 34?

SPEAKER_01 34:47

Yeah. Yeah, I think the important one of our points here, which is it's not super uh uh I mean, others have argued that too, is that I think that Luke in in the beginning in in 1215, before he starts discussing the uh the the brothers and their inheritance, he he presents almost as his thesis of the whole passage. It's about greed. So when we come to the anxiety, you know, don't don't worry. I mean, that seems uh how can you live that? Everyone worries, you know. What's going on here? It seems I mean it's it seems like totally impossible to live the life that Jesus everyone worries. What's going on? Well, what if Jesus is talking about two sides of greed here? Like they're two different behaviors, but the same disposition disposition, the same greed, uh, and how it's oriented toward making possessions the ultimate end of life. So, how does that play out in in this uh text about worrying? Well, I mean, in the first passage about the rich man and the parable of the rich man, I mean, there the problem is abundance. Uh, he has a lot. What is what is he gonna do with that? But here it's scarcity and survival. And what happens in those situations is that you're attempted uh to move into a we call greedy anxiety to to to sort of make it distinct from other types of anxieties because not all and we don't think that Luke talks about any. I mean, if you're worried about uh your kids and how how they are gonna you know grow up and everything, and that's fine. That that's not what Luke is talking about here. He's talking about this it's very tragic. I mean, you are poor and you're and and during this time most people uh they barely got bio. So they they were living on you know very like low level of of income or or resources, and a temptation in that sort of life is that you also end up suggesting or living as if food and clothing is life, and and in so what what Jesus says here, and then he he says, you know, in in an explanation or he tries to you know explain why he he commands people not to worry, you say he you know he basically says life is more than food and the body is more than clothing. I mean the assumption here is is that nourishment and clothes are the means, not the end of life. You know, there's life is more than this, but yeah suffering, scarcity can sort of propel you into a way of thinking where or not thinking, way of living where you tragically make food and clothing to the end, the ultimate end in life, and therefore falls into idolatry, just like the rich man. So yeah, I think this is one of our you know points is that here are two very different behaviors, but they seem to be animate, they seem to express the same disposition and be directed toward the same idolatrous vision of life, namely, our possession is life. So and also, you know, the whole passage ends with this famous, I think rather famous verse where Jesus says something along along the line of where your treasure is, there your heart will also be. I think this is sort of a theme, a key verse for the whole thing, you know. It it's about the heart and how it's directed. So, yeah, that's in in in brief, uh, I think what we're trying to say there. But there's all sorts of very interesting things about uh trust here too, because what what happens this is typically what happens in idolatry, is that um you start distrust distrusting God and and and therefore start gradually relying more on yourself. And what happens when you when you rely more and more on yourself, once again then you are like pushed into thinking that well, I have to solve everything, and and you you're propelled into this thing again that well perhaps clothing and my pursuit of of survival is is life. Uh yeah. So it it's a very it's a sort of it's a very tragic thing, this anxiety, but it's not you know anxiety, it's not worry about it's a particular kind of worry. That I think that's a very, very important point here. Otherwise, you read this patch passage as saying that you're some you're you're you're supposed to be some sort of superhero, super man or woman that totally above any emotion or worry. I mean, that's that's impossible, I think. Yeah, yeah. No, that's just Jesus seem to worry a little bit too in Mark Mark and other places to be in the justemone uh passage. So yeah.

SPEAKER_00 40:14

Yeah, no, I I think that that's really helpful. Um and I want to turn to Luke 16. We have two passages there that I want to take a look at. And I remember like when I started reading the Bible in high school, Luke 16, 1 through 13, which is about the shroom manager, uh, you know, Jesus explains the the purpose of this parable at the end, but it's still like it's kind of a it's kind of a weird, it's kind of a weird parable on the front. And it was one that I really wrestled with for a long time. Like, I really don't know what to do with this. Um, so so walk us through what's going on in Luke 16, 1 through 13. How does Jesus set this up and what's what's going on in this passage?

SPEAKER_01 40:47

Yeah. So what's difficult about it is that he seems to do the wrong thing. I mean, he uh he he tricks his master and lies and stuff like that. So how and I think there's that's why it's so difficult. Also, some verses uh afterwards, you know, uh might add to the problem here. How are we supposed to to understand this patch? But what we're trying to say in this in this article is that again, I think we need to look at at the disposition or the virtue here. The virtue here is shrewdness, or maybe we can say that the the manager here who who gets news that he's about to be fired, he's street smart, or something like that. I don't know what how to translate into modern word. He's street smart, and he and he sort of manages things so that he will be received by his his um his lord's uh clients uh when he's fired. And so Jesus says then, well, what you're to learn from this person uh is this sort of street smartness. Why is that needed? Well, it's because the researchers, possessions, money, and material goods in this world, they're not neutral, they're part of a fallen world. Um, so they're never neutral. Uh and so you have to be special type of shrewdness or or wisdom to handle this. Because if you don't have this virtue, if you don't have this skill, you end up turning mammon small m into mammon big m, namely turning it into an idol. So and and and idols eat you alive. Uh the mammon is a monster that will never get satisfied and will either I mean it it's it's not a good thing to have. So I think that's that that's how we're there in more detail than that, and perhaps I have have to refer the the listener to the article, but I think that's the like the the brief version of it. I think that helps a little. Once again, it's it's his focusing on dispositions.

SPEAKER_00 43:00

Um yeah, and this is immediately following this, and it I think it goes to show again, like one of Luke's redactional strategies, is he loves to cluster, he loves to cluster traditions that are of a similar theme. He immediately follows this with the infamous uh parable of the rich man and Lazarus, which in context is directed at the Pharisees, right? Jesus' uh erstwhile opponents in all of the all four of the gospels here. Um, but that every everyone knows the story of everyone that's that's that's been in church knows the story of the rich man and Lazarus. Um and this is another one, too, where I think a lot of the times, you know, people people will look at this from the standpoint of ethics, but then there's also, you know, kind of eschatology that's built into that and all kinds of questions that are going on in this passage. But you guys address this head on in your your article. Talk to us about Luke 16, 14 through 31. Uh, what's going on with this parable of the rich man of Lazarus?

SPEAKER_01 43:54

Yeah, so so we take the whole thing to start in verse 14 where where Jesus is talking. Talking about mammon lovers or lovers of money or servants of mammon, which is which you you can translate to Greek word as you want. So I think that's a sort of strikes the key or or introduces the theme of what's going on in the the subsequent subsequent verses, including the parable. So the rich man is a lover of money or lover of mammon. And since Lucas grouped these together with the shrewd manager who's who's whose call, you know, the the the lesson of the parable of the shrewd manager is you know, use ambiguous mammon to make friends uh that will receive you in the internal uh like the internal tense or sort of that you will receive eschatological hospitality or something like that. And I think this parable about the rich man and Lazarus um illustrates that too. So so the rich man uh is not using the ambiguous mammon to make friends with Lazarus. He's obviously there. I mean, it's it's you know, it doesn't Luke doesn't say that, but it's you know, if you imagine a little bit, it's it's almost like this rich man have to step over Lazarus, you know, moving out. So I mean there's he it's he definitely noticed him, you know. But he but the rich man he seems he he seems so captivated by something else that he can that he that he can just like that he just think feels and acts as if he can believe this guy. I mean he's it's it's so graphically painted, even you know, he's so degraded, Lazarus. He has it's it's so he's so low. So the only one who serves him who comes, you know, is the dog who licks his his um uh what do you call him? Um yeah, licks his uh wounds. Yeah, yeah. So so it I mean so I think this illustrate the the the principle of making friends with mammon, and he doesn't, uh which means also the the tragic implication of that is that he will not or risks not being received, uh receiving eschatological hospitality. I mean, we can the like the um eternal punishment or all these this that's another issue, but maybe should leave that aside a little bit. But yeah, but I think it's that's like an a tra really tragic example about how what happens if you don't make friends with mammon and and and um so so these this I think these two texts go together a little bit, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 46:36

Yeah, no, I I think that's perfect. And I and we have about 15 minutes left, and I I want to I want to really drive this home for my audience because at the end, you guys talk about how believers in the modern world, based on these passages in Luke and based on what the New Testament says about possessions and intention and moral formation, you discuss how we can cultivate a good attitude towards our possessions in the modern world. And you basically have three different ways in which you talk about how believers can do this. And I want to talk about all three of them. And the the first one is behavior and vision. So, again, even within this, we are kind of back at the idea that, like with intentions, those intentions will manifest themselves in concrete actions from time to time. Uh, but talk to us about the importance of behavior and vision for Christians as we think about the ethics of possessions.

SPEAKER_01 47:19

Yeah. So we s so if we switch into this notion of formation and motivation, our two key questions are first, training. How can our hearts be trained toward loving the kingdom above all else? So that's another and another one is discernment. Um, how can we discern whether our desires are for possessions? I mean, it's not wrong to desire possessions. That's the really important point. I mean, desires for you can love your house if you have one. Uh but is this love properly ordered in relation to the ultimate desire of loving God? Be that that makes the whole difference. If the house is the end in itself, you know, you will prioritize the house, you perhaps will even defend it unto death, you know. Right. If it's if your love for the house is ordered toward the kingdom, you'd be you might be content with smaller house and it will and would serve most the kingdom ends, you like hospitality and other you know things like that. So so that's the two important things training and discernment. That's the two questions. So so where where moving now into the paradigms and practices or examplars and practices, so where does this training and discernment happen? The the brief answer is like community. Uh yeah. So examplers, you look at examples, you follow them, and you're automatically slowly but gradually shaped. Um examplars also help you see things differently. So if I'm afraid of like letting go of certain things, like I don't know what it could be, like flying or a certain type of lifestyle. I I need to have so many of this type of cars, I can't ride this shitty car because that's then you you can run into an exemplar who does the opposite, and you well, well, maybe this is not as bad as I thought, you know. So they can also help you see things differently. But practice is also important, you know, how how you are slowly shaped, you know, in the churchly practices of baptism worship, scripture reading, service in the community and missions and all that. And I think that is important. It doesn't mean that practices or the church is sort of perfect, you know, practices churches can shape can bad not only shape you in a good way, they can also shape you in a bad way. So I mean there's there's always this way. And finally, we we we we we sort of focus on two particular practices which we want to highlight a little bit. And the first is friendship, like it's very important to break isolation because we think that isolation is one reason, one important reason why poor and rich are sort of stuck in their idolity, both of them. Um because when when well-fed people alleviate the pain of poor people, poor people are not necessarily, you know, like tragically propelled into this uh greed anxiety where you accidentally or turn like food and clothing into the main main goal of life. And on the other hand, well-fed or rich persons uh are oriented different differently when when when they start being generous generous and and and realize that, well, perhaps I'm not the one who I mean I I have as much to learn and and and receive from from other poor people than I have to give. And there's something happening there, I think. Uh and also, you know, if if if a good friend of you suffers, it melts your heart, as it were. I mean, it's difficult to be uh like have a sort of attitude toward like a an attitude of not being generous toward a friend. So friendship is really important, and then joy, the joy of resurrection, the joy of God's abundance, you know, like celebrate the resurrection, remember it and experience it. I think that's super important. So otherwise you get like gloomy, bitter persons that well, well, we have to give this away and I don't like it. Um perhaps it's the joy of sharing in God's grace and resurrection life, but it's through giving up certain things. Um yeah, so that's our three things.

SPEAKER_00 51:52

Uh yeah, and the the last question I want to put to you today is just about how we can how we can implement this in the church and what the world would look like if we actually took this seriously. So the way I want to frame it is we we are um, you know, and I I think for at least in my American context, there there are a lot of Christians that do sincerely authentically wrestle with these issues, but then we also have a lot of very prominent prosperity gospel preachers, and so we're kind of pushing back against like the Joel Osteens of the world that say that if you believe in God, you're gonna be rich and that that's that that that's a good goal in and of itself, which is kind of going back to what you were saying, that that's not cultivating a good intention, and that's an expression of the idolatry of wealth. So, how as Christians do we overcome those kind of attitudes and help believers focus on their intentions? And then uh once we've done that, uh if we can do that, what would the world look like if the church really took the moral formation and the intentions of possession seriously?

SPEAKER_01 52:50

Yeah. Yeah, wonderful questions. Yeah, well, what would the world look like? A wonderful place, I would say. I mean, I I sometimes since Luke uses the banquet, which is roughly like a big party, uh as as the image of the kingdom, I sometimes think of maybe that is is how the world would look like. Uh you have this like wonderful big party, uh like a great hospitality where people contribute with what they have, and no one goes hungry, no one is homeless. There's a joy in joy in sharing in sharing God's grace and like deep friendships is like cultivated in this these big parties or these banquets. I think that might be there are other ways of saying this, but I think this is imagining imagining a I mean depends on which image you get from a big party. For some people it's the worst thing to go to a party because you have to be social and something. So there's there are of course aspects of that, but leaving that aside, I think that could be sort of imagine this place where people enjoy eat together. Um but but it does also include some hardships because it's not always easy to to and you might get persecuted for doing this, and but I also imagine, I mean, I'm thinking about the US. I mean, it's the same in Sweden, that is today politics is very divisive. Yeah. So just imagine a big party where Christian Republicans and Christian Democrats enjoy enjoy they don't have to agree, uh but they but they enjoy each other companies and also you know people from different classes and different races. I mean, that's yeah, that's what I think could perhaps be uh one way of hoping what we're looking for here. But but if we're going into more concrete things, what can we do to cultivate uh you know, form, train our hearts? I think one important thing I think is is experience. I mean, unless we experience God's love and the joy of resurrection, it's very, very difficult to change. Uh impossible, I think. Uh so so but I can't inform you uh to change your your your way of life. I mean information might help, but it it it's not the solution. So only if you get a vision, a taste of God's abundance, you will look at scarcity, scarcity of this world in a very, very different way, I think. So pray, read the Bible, go on retreats, uh find yourself a spiritual director. I mean, it depends on what church tradition we are in. We might might use different words for these things. That's I mean, and then habits I think is very important. Start baby steps, but start you know, start habits uh given habits of generosity. Can you can you do one thing that you keep on doing for a while? After a while you you forget that this is what you do, it sort of becomes second nature. I think that's that's one way. And of course, doing this together is uh participate in practices that um are focused on generosity, uh and they will transform transform you, and perhaps where you meet other people, I think that's also important. And exemplars, of course, they show up in these places too, which you can sort of look at and and be captivated by their way of of of doing things and and and but there's other you know most concrete things. I mean, I don't know how how it is in in the US, but I think in Sweden, if you go to a random church and say, Hey, how much do you make and what do you do with your money? I think that's one of the most provocative questions, perhaps together with something about your sexuality and your sexual life. So yeah, so so that might be a good thing too. I mean, can you have a certain friend where you can actually talk about what you do with your money in a safe place? And that's I think that would might be it, it's if if you if you're courageous, this is uh this is this is the thing to do. Um I mean there's other things too, like like talked about before, resisting isolation. I mean, how can we cultivate friendship across class lines, which also of course means you know I uh it's uh perhaps in the US, I think that means Sweden too, class of of often comes also racial lines. I mean those are sometimes overlap. And be concrete, do not outsource your giving either through taxes or something like that, but something concrete. I think that helps, you know. Um I mean, my colleague, uh Rebecca, she she regularly stocks uh uh a community fridge uh with groceries. That's something very concrete, uh, I think.

SPEAKER_00 58:06

Yeah, well, Carl, a lot of good stuff to think about today. I really appreciate you coming on the show. Before I let you go, um, I know that you said you've published a lot of work in Swedish, which my my audience uh I'm sure there's someone listening to this that that can read in Swedish. Um, but just for people that are more interested in what you've done, uh, your work, your research, all of that kind of things, where where can they find you and find your work?

SPEAKER_01 58:28

Yeah, I think the easiest way to find both Rebecca's and my work is to uh search on us on our names online, and you'll find my page on the Lynn Shopping University and her sort of page at the Loyola. Uh and there we have a list of our publications. But once again, I always do want to highlight Rebecca's work on the Beatitudes and Lament. I mean, yeah, it's awesome. Um and um yeah, and I hope to publish uh uh in a while. I don't know how many years it's gonna be, but it's hopefully soon on Jesus as a moral example in Luke's gospel, but that's probably uh uh a year or two away.

SPEAKER_00 59:09

Yeah, well, I'll be looking forward to that one. Uh and again, Carl, thank you so much for coming on the show today. I really appreciate your time.

SPEAKER_01 59:15

Thank you for having me.

SPEAKER_00 59:17

Thank you for listening to another episode of the Protestant Libertarian Podcast. If you have any questions or comments, please reach out to me at theprotestantlibertarian at gmail.com. You can also find me on Twitter and follow me at the handle at Pro LibertyPod. Again, that is at Pro Liberty Pod. And you can also visit me at the Protestant Libertarian Podcast.com. At the Protestant Libertarian Podcast.com. You can also support the Christian Liberty Network and the Libertarian Christian Network. Thank you guys so much for listening to this episode, and we will see you next week.