Ep 278: Paul and the Resurrection of Israel with Jason Staples

In this episode I talk with Dr. Jason Staples about his book Paul and the Resurrection of Israel, in which he argues that the resurrection of Israel is a major motif in Paul’s thinking. Staples explains how the resurrection of Israel is based on the prophetic hope, rooted in passages like Ezekiel 37, that God would rescue and restore Israel based on His covenantal promises to them. He demonstrates that there is a distinction between “Israel” and “the Jews” in the Bible, and that God’s promises to restore all of Israel must go beyond the descendants of the southern kingdom. Ephraim, the northern kingdom, had effectively been dissolved into the nations, and Paul’s mission to the Gentiles is a fulfillment of the promise to restore Israel. Staples dives headfirst into Romans 2 and 9-11, showing how in passage after passage Paul believes the restoration is being accomplished through faith in Israel’s Messiah Jesus and the gift of the Holy Spirit, which enables those who are a part of Abraham’s family to obey God. In Romans 9-11, Paul describes the plight of Israel in great detail, demonstrating through detailed interpretation of key Old Testament passages how the remnant of Israel will in fact be saved on the final day and how the incorporation of Gentiles into God’s people through faith and the Spirit is a fulfillment of God’s promises. We then finally explore the contemporary application of Staple’s insight for modern Christian theology.

Media Referenced:

Paul and the Resurrection of Israel: https://a.co/d/00Y25mXY

Jason Staples Website: https://www.jasonstaples.com/

Jason Staples on X: @jasonstaples

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Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

This is the Protestant Libertarian Podcast, a project of the Libertarian Christian Institute and part of the Christians for Liberty Network. I really hope that you guys enjoy today's show. All right, guys, welcome to another episode of the Protestant Libertarian Podcast. My guest today is Dr. Jason Staples. Dr. Staples is associate professor of New Testament at North Carolina State University and the author of the recent book, Paul and the Resurrection of Israel, where he argues that many traditional readings of Paul have misunderstood the relationship between Israel, Jews, and the Gentiles. Drawing on the Old Testament, Second Temple Judaism, and Paul's letters, Staples contends that Paul's mission to the Gentiles was not a departure from God's promise to Israel, but the very means by which God was bringing about Israel's restoration and resurrection. We'll be discussing this book on the show today. Dr. Staples, welcome to the Protestant Libertarian Podcast.

SPEAKER_00 0:55

Thank you for having me. It's uh should be uh should be fun. Yeah, so before we get to the book, just tell us about yourself, your background, and your work. Well, where to start? Um, so uh yeah, I'm you know, I've been I've been teaching at NC State now for uh 10 years, actually, it looks like. Um it's 2026. Uh and um this that came after doing a PhD at UNC Chapel Hill uh under the uh direction primarily of uh Bart Ehrman. And then uh before that I was at Florida State where I did a master's and then a and then a uh uh a bachelor's before that. And um, you know, went there went there expecting to, you know, do more uh to have a career in sports and went up wound up going pro in something other than sports, as they say. So uh uh so yeah, um I don't know what else necessarily you want in terms of background, but uh you know, continue to do lots of things from uh from voice work to you know again teaching and and and the writing and then um uh lots of uh of uh sports coverage and other things to pay the bills. So, you know, at this point in in the way that academia works, you know, if you uh aren't one of the one of the lucky golden ticket holders who gets a tenured uh position or a tenure track position, then you'd better have side careers. So I've had several of those and uh continue to uh to essentially self-fund scholarship, basically.

SPEAKER_01 2:34

Well, your your work is fantastic, and I've I've talked to many, many biblical scholars, uh, and your name comes up a lot when I have conversations, especially about Paul. And so I think that you published your book, Paul on the Resurrection of Israel, in 2024. Um, every single month it seems like there's a whole slew of books on Pawline scholarship that were released. Uh, yours is one of the best that I've read, I mean, I think ever. Um, but given the fact that there is such a like a constant flood of Pawline scholarship, what motivated you to write this book? And like what what gap in Pawline scholarship were you hoping to fill?

SPEAKER_00 3:10

Uh you know, there there are several things, but uh what motivated me is that uh is the same thing that tends to motivate me to do anything uh in terms of writing generally. Uh, and that is I'm the kind of person who I don't know if you've ever seen that comic where you've got you know the guy sitting in front of his computer and he's saying, you know, he's being called out of the room or whatever, and he says, Hold on, someone on the internet is wrong. Um and you know, he's trying to respond to that. Uh I'm a little bit of that kind of uh kind of uh uh a person who's willing to kind of flail in the air and go, wait, no, no, no, this is just wrong. Like, you know, uh there's a little bit of uh of uh you know Jacobi Muga Mugatu in me, if you're if you know Zoolander, of you know, like am I the only one that sees this? I feel like I'm taking crazy pills, right? And so at a certain point, you know, I I I felt like there needed to be an intervention in the field because I thought I was seeing some things that that were not adequately represented within the field. Um I do think actually the majority of uh I hate to say this, but I think the majority of scholarship that actually is done in the humanities is the sort of thing that uh doesn't necessarily need to be done or doesn't really advance the field very much. And I didn't want to write something that I didn't feel would would have uh uh an important impact of of correcting some things that I thought needed to be uh needed to be corrected. So, you know, the big thing is that, you know, I thought there was a uh you said you asked, you know, the second part of your question was what gap did I was I trying to address? And and really, you know, it it was it's several gaps kind of all at once because I I felt like the majority of Pauline scholarship, I mean the vast majority of Pauline scholarship, just was based on foundations that didn't make any sense in light of Paul's surrounding context and what he actually says. Uh and if you want to go far enough back, you know, when I was in high school, uh I had one of those uh, I don't know if you're familiar with them, but one of those black-covered student Bibles. It's like a teen student Bible, uh, I think it was. And, you know, I was reading through that at one point, and it's got little notes in it, right? And one of the things that I noticed is I would read the, I would read the thing, and then there'd be like a little place to signal you to go and take a look at the note. And then I read the note and I was like, that's funny. The note is basically trying to explain why this doesn't mean what it explicitly says. That's that's kind of weird. And I noticed several, you know, as I was reading through, in particular, the New Testament in that in that particular Bible, that the longer the note was, the more that tended to be the case. Like the short notes were just like explanatory, like, oh, okay, that makes sense. But anytime there was a long note, it was like, well, by the wording, it would seem like this was this is saying this. But in fact, that can't be what this means. So once we once you kind of turn your your head a little bit and squint, then you can understand that it really means this other thing. And I found that to be at, you know, at 16, 17 years old, I found that to be kind of striking at that time and kind of took note of that of like, it's kind of funny that anytime there's a long note, it's just a way of explaining around what this thing says. And then, you know, as I got further in and started taking college classes, you know, and I took a couple college classes in the religious studies department at Florida State, and that's a very dangerous thing for people to do. For someone like me, especially, who's, you know, got a little bit of that um that kind of that kind of streak to really want to get to the bottom of things and and likes to solve puzzles and all of those things. It's dangerous to take classes in a philosophy philosophy or religious studies department uh, you know, in these contexts, because that very well may be the thing that ends up capturing you. Uh and in this case I took some courses that as I got more exposed to some of the scholarship on uh on Paul, on uh on biblical studies in general, I found that I was going it it it it just can't mean that. Like just that how are you not noticing this? Like he's saying that, quoting this, and so eventually, you know, I I I decided that that I would uh try to make some sort of intervention in the field. And in particular, the big gap that I wanted to identify had to do with the specific foundations of Paul's gospel. Uh, because one one of the things that that you know, you can kind of get into these ruts uh in in the field where everybody's responding to everyone else and responding to something that someone else said earlier, but nobody's actually going back to the text itself and what the text is responding to uh all that often. That's harder to do. And, you know, scholarship is a big conversation. And so what happens is you get into these paradigms, and sort of the the foundation of the paradigm establishes what the possible readings or possible explanations are. And in particular, what I noted is that the there were a few foundations, uh a couple foundations of Pauline studies that I just thought were wrong, um, that that needed to be re-established or resettled. One of which had to do with the understanding of uh of Paul or the reading of Paul's understanding of the concept of Israel. Uh, another had to do with his understanding of how uh the death of Jesus and the coming of the Spirit and all of those things interfaces with uh with his sort of expectations of of what's going to happen with Israel and with the nations, and also how you know sort of salvation works and how that relates to the concept of works versus faith and these sorts of things. That whole sort of set of foundations, which I think very much does depend on what we what what we start from in terms of okay, well, who does it who does he think Israel is? What what does he think God is actually fulfilling when he says that, you know, when he's preaching this good news? That that was the the kind of the the uh the hole that I wanted to fill. It wasn't so much a hole as I thought it was a foundation that had lots of cracks because there was a a there's a tendency to read Paul as you know, sort of the first Christian, as someone who has uh, and actually to leave to use the um to use a line from a scholar that I do actually r very much respect from the prior generation, E. P. Sanders, someone who embraced a different pattern of religion from the Judaism that that came before him. And, you know, so you know, you had all of this before, and then Paul is sort of the first modern man, the first Christian who comes in with this completely new other thing that's different. And then, you know, it's got some similarities, but it's just different. And I just didn't think that that works, and I still don't think that that works very well as a uh as a foundation. And I think you have to understand Paul first and foremost by looking at what he thinks is is being fulfilled in the larger sort of timetable based on what he thinks the the Torah and the prophets promised would happen. And until you get to that, that sort of base level substructure, you're just not going to understand them. And and uh and that was what I was really motivated to try to to try to fix. And so, in some sense, um it was less about identifying a hole uh or a you know a crooked wall or or or something, or you know, a new wall to put up or you know, something like that, and more about all right, let's take this come let's take this completely back down to the foundation and let's re pour a new foundation so that we can build something better.

SPEAKER_01 11:35

Yeah, even even the title of your book, The Resurrection of Israel, implies that there's this great continuity that you sometimes don't get or oftentimes don't get in Pauline scholarship. So talk about that phrase. Uh, what is what do you mean by the resurrection of Israel and why is that so central to Paul?

SPEAKER_00 11:50

Well, for me, the resurrection of Israel, the image comes back to Ezekiel 37. Uh, Ezekiel is is transported to a valley full of dry bones, and then you know, God asks him, Son of man, can these dry bones live? And Ezekiel sort of wisely answers, you know, when you're when God asks you a question, the best thing to add to do is to turn it back on back on God. Uh and he says, Well, surely you know. And then Ezekiel is told, prophesy to the bones, and then he sees this vision of these bones all clicking together and then flesh being formed on them, and then finally, spirit or wind comes into them and and they stand up on their feet and they're all a living army. And then he's and and he's told in the process of this vision that this these bones are the whole house, uh, are the whole are the whole house of Israel. Uh, and that this is a a picture of Israel's restoration from the death that had been the result of disobeying the covenant. And so this is this is a a really poignant image in in the prophets and and you know, obviously in Ezekiel specifically. And it it sort of is a uh uh again, it's it's it's an image that describes what what is expected and what God promises to the people of Israel in the wake of the consequences of covenant breach, of covenant breaking, uh, that leads to exile, or you know, as I put it in the in the book, death by exile. Um so you know, this is this is uh this is the image where that where that sort of comes from, and it's pulling from the lar this larger narrative that goes all the way back into the Torah, that if you read Deuteronomy 30, Deuteronomy 30, uh Moses says, uh, see I set before you today uh you know a choice, uh you know, life and death, right? Uh uh life and blessing, death and the curse. And then he tells them, he he he he implores them, so choose life so that you may live. Uh and then he goes on a little bit later in chapter 30, and then into 31 and 32, and he says, But I know you're not gonna choose life. You're not gonna do that. You of course you're not gonna do that. Um, and so then you have the Song of Moses, which wraps up with this uh large-scale sort of historical uh narrative of God's plan with respect to Israel and the c and the covenant, and it actually it ends with Israel and the nations uh rejoicing together and and praising the God of Israel who has then uh brought healing to the whole world. But Israel in this rebels as Moses says they will, they choose death, they they they go down into death, and then God redeems them from this curse. And then the consequence is that Israel and the nations, like I said, Israel and the nations rejoice uh together with God, alive, having been given the life that then the Torah uh points to and promises. And so essentially what I'm arguing in the book is that Paul believes that through the death and resurrection of Jesus and through the the outpouring of the of the Holy Spirit that Jesus dispenses after his resurrection, that God is fulfilling exactly that promise, that God is fulfilling the the promises of the Torah and the promises that he gave through the prophets to redeem and restore his people Israel to a point not only of obedience but of life. And this is not a temporary life, but in but an eternal life. And that life then also in pouring this out on Israel, that life also spills out to the nations in a surprising way. That actually involves a sort of life from the death in a a life from death in an in a sort of ethnic fashion, in in the in the fashion of not just individuals, but of of of a people. And so, you know, I think this is the the larger sort of narrative that governs Paul's gospel going all the way back to the Torah, all the way back, and again, you can take it to Deuteronomy 30, but Deuteronomy 30 is itself already working with stuff that's visible in you know Genesis 12 through 17, 18, and that is already working with stuff that's in nutshell form in Genesis 1 through 3. The whole thing ultimately is about death and resurrection, and the death and resurrection of Israel is actually sort of the found a a foundational piece of this larger death and resurrection of uh of humanity in in general, and because God has chosen Israel to be this this uh this avenue of life, not only for itself, but but to the nations. And so this is what I think Paul is doing, and that's why I think it's really important to start with some of these concepts of Israel's death and resurrection as central to what Paul understands as the good news.

SPEAKER_01 17:20

Yeah, and I I noticed that all throughout that you're saying Israel and not Jews. And this is one aspect of your work that is incredibly important and that I think that we have completely missed. And and after after reading your book and going back and reading older Pauline scholarship, you can see how this this kind of aligns a lot of a lot of that work. But you argue in this book that the term Jew and the term Israel are not synonymous, and we all tend to think that those are those are just essentially synonyms. So talk to us about the distinction, especially in Paul's thought, between the Jews on the one hand and Israel on the other. And then what does that distinction have to do with with the third category, Paul's, Paul's mission to the Gentiles?

SPEAKER_00 17:57

Yeah, I mean, that's uh that's part of that foundation, really. And you know, I think the it's fairly easy to understand once you once you actually put the lenses on to be able to see it, and that is that uh Jews and Israelites are not identical. It's not they're not uh identical uh synonymous terms, because Jews are a part of Israel rather than the whole of Israel, because Jew is the word for Judahite. That's where the word comes from, and it's where uh it's what we see in the first place where the book where the word appears in in the uh Hebrew Bible in the Old Testament, in Jeremiah, in uh in 2 Kings, uh you get one in in uh in Chronicles as well that's used that way. But that's a term that in the biblical record just refers to people from Judah. Uh it doesn't necessarily refer to people from the tribe of Judah, but people from Judah as in the the specific kingdom of Judah, and mostly that is people from the tribe of Judah. But the the that southern group of people from the tribe of Judah are not the whole of the people of Israel. And we see this throughout the biblical record, obviously. You've got the the northern kingdom of Israel that is distinct from the southern kingdom of Judah, and actually they're the ones that retain the name Israel and Israelite over and against uh Judahite or Jew. Uh so that's where that's what that word sort of begins as. And it's been widely presumed for basically a couple generations of biblical scholarship that once these the the northern kingdom of Israel was uh was destroyed by the Assyrians and you know large portions of its population deported, that essentially from that point forward, since there wasn't really a separate Israel anymore, from that point forward, Jews were the Israelites that were left, so Jews and Israelite, you know, Jew and Israelite just then become kind of synonymous terms. But what I did in the book prior to you know Paul and the res the resurrection of Israel, this is uh the book um uh the idea of Israel in Second Temple Judaism, is I looked through the material from early Jewish uh sources in in the in the period uh basically from the beginning of the of the exile and and a little bit before, uh through basically the fall of the Second Temple in 70 CE, so basically to the end of the first century. And what I discovered is they don't treat these terms as synonymous. And biblical scholarship has has widely understood that they're that these terms are not used uh in a interchangeable way, and there were just lots of efforts to try to explain, well, I mean, they're not interchangeable, but they're still synonymous. So here's how we can kind of understand the different nuances for why they're used so differently. But none of those other models really worked. And basically what I did is I came in and said, look, if we if if we look closely at these sources, some of them just flat out tell us what they're doing, and the other ones follow the same pattern, and it turns out that they they're still following the same model that they got from from uh or that we see in in the Hebrew Bible, and that is that Jew refers to people associated with the the people centered in Jerusalem, you know, the people who who go to the uh whose whose uh uh religious commitments and such go to the temple in Jerusalem and who are allied with essentially the tribe of Judah, and the vast majority of which are from the tribe of Judah. But it's basically Levi, Judah, and Benjamin, along with a few, very few people from some of those other tribes. I mean, Simeon seems to have been absorbed into Judah pretty early, but there probably there might be. Some people still as you know late that are identifying as Simeonites. We we don't really have evidence for that, but maybe. Um, you know, you've got Anna of the tribe of Asher mentioned in in in uh in Luke, who is the only person, by the way, from the tribe of Asher who's mentioned for about a 500-year period.

unknown 22:20

Wow.

SPEAKER_00 22:21

Uh, so you know, exactly what's going on there is a little tricky, but you know, at any rate, there aren't a whole lot of Asherites running around. We know that. Uh, you know, there's nobody from Reuben that's running around in the in the second in the uh second century BCE, let alone the first century uh CE. So, you know, you start to notice that, oh, oh, so they're doing something a little bit different. You've got some of these others that are that are uh attached here, but they're not they're not Jews. Uh and then you have the Samaritans who say, well, we are Israelites, but they're definitely not Jews. Jews don't say that they're Jews, and Samaritans definitely don't say that they're Jews. So then you realize, oh, this is there's a that they use these terms differently because they have different meanings. One has a broader meaning that includes people that are not from Judah, and the other, those those who are Jews, is part of that broader group, but is not the whole. And and I think that that makes it pretty simple.

SPEAKER_01 23:22

Yes. And you you you talk in your book about how the and oftentimes in Paul and scholarship, when it comes to soteriology, it's always understood in individualistic terms. It's about how me as an individual sinner can get right with God. But you argue that what really animated Paul is this restoration of Israel. And then along with that, you have uh you've made the argument, which this this is, I think, more commonplace in scholarship, that Paul is very much concerned about the incorporation of the Gentiles. Whatever we, whatever we we make of that, that is something that's central to Paul. But Paul also uses the language of being in Christ, like incorporated in Christ. And these ideas are all kind of connected. So I think the the last broad question I want to ask you before we get into some of the text in Romans themselves, are how are God's promises to Israel fulfilled by the inclusion of the Gentiles and by being in Christ? How does all that that fit together?

SPEAKER_00 24:17

Yeah, that's a good question. And you know, my argument there is that Paul thinks that based on his reading of uh his his Bible and uh and history, he believes that the bulk of the the people from the northern part of Israel, the non-Jewish part of Israel, that the bulk of those people went into exile and assimilated. They they uh ceased to be ethnically Israelite in any meaningful way. Uh they you know intermarried with the nations where they where they were scattered. They began to worship those, you know, their children, then worshiped the gods of those nations, which is what, by the way, it says is going to happen in Deuteronomy. It's what it says is going to happen in Amos and Hosea and so on. So he's reading these these things and says, oh, well, that's what happened. Uh but here's the thing 800 years go by, and you know, these people have assimilated among the various nations, and they're not Israelites anymore. They're just not. And and there's no me there's no way to say, oh, well, let's, you know, if we go back far enough, we can find your you know, Israelite ancestor back here and somehow that's just not that's not how that works, right? I mean, who is your ancestor? Who are what what were the names of your ancestors or where did they come from 800 years ago or 700 years ago? It's just not how that works, right? And but then Paul also believes that what God promised about bringing restoration to those to the the the northern uh part of Israel, that God's promise is still true, that God is still faithful to fulfill his promise. So then you've got the trick of okay, if these northern people of Israel, if the if those tribes, let's say the tribe of Reuben, if it's just the tribe of Reuben, you could just go with that one. What well does God's promise no longer apply to them because they intermarried? Because they they ceased to be a separate people? And for Paul, that's an impossibility. For Paul, it's it's it's incomprehensible that God's promises are not going to be fulfilled in some way. And so then the the next thing that you have to explain is why also are some of these uncircumcised Gentile men receiving the same spirit, the same Holy Spirit that Jews who follow Jesus are receiving. And we've regarded as, you know, the the early Jesus movement clearly regarded this as evidence of uh the restoration of Israel through Jesus and through his death and resurrection and the promises that he had made. So if that if they're receiving the same sort of thing that and participating in the same spiritual life that the that their Jewish uh counterparts are are are getting, what's the reasoning for that? What's the basis for that? Because when you go back and you read the the Hebrew Bible, you see, sure, rejoice, you know, nations with his people, but you don't get like, oh yeah, I'm gonna pour out my spirit on on the nations. You have on all flesh, yeah, in in in uh in uh Joel or in Nachem. Uh but you don't have this promise of the participation you you have, you know, I will write my law on their hearts to whom? The the house of Israel and the house of Judah. That's a very important uh prophecy in the in the new covenant. How do you get there? So then you have those two things that sort of exist side by side. We have the if Jesus is the Messiah, what do we expect? Well, we should expect that what the prophets say about the restoration of all of Israel, which includes all twelve tribes, should be happening. Okay, that's so how's that how are we explaining that? And then also the people of Israel should be receiving a new heart and a new spirit and so on as a part of this restoration. Well, I mean, we're seeing those guys over there, those guys from the Gentiles who are getting it, and we're like, where are we getting that? And then it's like, oh, wait a second. Wait, maybe those two things that we can't explain on their own explain each other. And that's where the idea is that uh that Paul recognizes that the bulk of Israel intermarried with the nations, and if God's promises to them are still true, if God is still is still going to redeem them, then that means God has to bring in the nations where they were assimilated. So by bringing in people from the nations, God is effectively resurrecting the people who died ethnically among that nation. And so now those from the nations who are receiving the Spirit are becoming Israelites, even though they weren't Israelites prior, in the same way that Israelites then went and became people from those nations and ceased to be Israelites. So this is the way that then God fulfills the promise, and then that has the added benefit of fulfilling the promise of blessing to the nations through Abraham's seed, or in Abraham's seed, actually, uh, that is, you know, goes all the way back to the very beginning of the of the Abrahamic covenant, so that God is fulfilling his promises to Israel and the nations all in one move. And it's a very elegant solution, and and I think that's what Paul's conclusion essentially is.

SPEAKER_01 30:18

Yeah, and all and all of those who are in Christ are those that have accepted Israel's Messiah and are now incorporated into that people. Right. Yeah, exactly. Perfect. Well, I I want to I want to get into some of the text that you address in your in your work, and you you focus not exclusively but primarily on Romans, and you take a look in particular at Romans chapter two and then Romans chapter nine through 11. So, like uh the two most controversial sections of Romans outside of maybe Romans 13. Um, and so I want to start with Romans 2. Um, talk to us about your interpretation of that chapter because it is really interesting that in a lot of scholarship, they either um they either kind of skip over that passage or they say, well, all Paul's really doing there is setting up these categories and then knocking them down in Romans 3 when he says that all have sinned and falls short of the glory of God. Um, but he makes some claims like there is no, Paul makes some claims like, you know, there's no partiality with God, and that there are this weird group of like heart-circumcised Gentiles who fulfill the law. There's a lot of stuff going on there that's just not explored. So talk to us about what Paul is doing in Romans 2 and that, how that fits into his larger vision of the resurrection of Israel.

SPEAKER_00 31:26

Yeah, and this is where, you know, I very much differ with one of my old teachers, uh, in particular, Douglas Campbell. Douglas thinks that, you know, those first couple chapters of Romans are pretty much in someone else's voice, that it's Paul taking on the voice of his opponents to essentially set a foundation that then he takes a sledgehammer to. Uh, that, you know, Paul doesn't actually think those things that he says in Romans 1 and 2. Uh, and I differ. I I disagree with that. I think Paul actually is not just putting on a mask and saying, oh yeah, you know, God is impartial. And then, you know, but he really thinks God's actually kind of partial.

SPEAKER_01 32:00

Right.

SPEAKER_00 32:00

Or um, you know, that uh that you know God will judge based on works, but you know, not really. He's not gonna judge based on works, God's not gonna judge at all, or something like that. It's not that's not what he's doing. Um what he's doing is he's establishing a foundation of uh a foundation based on the history uh on the scripture and the history of Israel and and Judah, once again. So essentially in in uh Romans 1 uh 17 through 32, he lays out uh he lays out the history of disobedient humanity, sort of in general, right? And he does so in in ways that look an awful lot like the kinds of um uh polemics against the nations, against Gentiles by other Jews. Uh this is this is a a genre that that we see lots of other examples of, you know, most notably in Wisdom of Solomon and uh and places like that. And so he he does a lot of the same thing, but in that in his retelling, there's just persistent echo after echo and a few you know quotations and things from accounts of Israel's rebellion in these very same ways. So through chapter one, he's indicting humanity, and he's indicting them with uh you know kind of gestures also to Israel's participation in the same sorts of things. Israel does it here, Israel does it there, they do the same things. And so what he's doing is he's establishing uh and by the way, there are a lot of people who think that you know, 117 through 32, this is an indictment of Gentiles. And I fully disagree with that one because if he had meant Gentiles, he could have said Gentiles. Instead, he says humans, right? And so then if it's only Gentiles, then we have to conclude that only Gentiles are human for Paul.

unknown 34:01

Right.

SPEAKER_00 34:02

And I don't think that actually is true. I think Paul believes that that Jews or Israelites are also human. Uh so so once we've got that, then we can get to chapter two, and he says, Oh, therefore you also are without excuse. Oh human who judges. And he turns to those who he as he talks about you you have the law. Okay, yeah, you've got the law. Great. Do you obey it? Do you do it? Because if not, then all of the things that were just said in Romans 1 apply to you too, which he's already established in the context of by by gesturing to Israel's history over and over again in his retelling of this, he's already established that foundation of are you sure you did it? Are you sure that Israel's guilt uh not guilty of these things? Because take a look at the quote from from Psalms that I just put in there, you know, take a look at the reference to the golden calf that's right there, take a look at this. So over and over again, he wants to explain that that's where things are going. And then he lays down the foundation in Romans 2 that yes, God may have given the Torah. He did give the Torah, he did select a people to be in covenant, but God is not going to just give those people a pass in terms of their behavior simply because he chose them for those things, instead, they are held accountable for those things. And he says, God is actually, he's he's not a respecter of persons, he's not, God is impartial. And so if you think that you're gonna be you're gonna get a pass simply because you believe the right things, because you got the Torah and you know how to say uh-huh in the right places, you're under the same penalty, you're under the same judgment as the rest of sinful humanity if you sin just like the rest of humanity. And his argument, uh, sort of subtly up to this point has been Israel has behaved just like the rest of humanity. So Israel's then subject to the same judgment. And so that's then the thrust of chapter two, where he makes that less subtle and he puts it all on the table and he says, Look, Israel has done exactly the same stuff that the rest of humanity has done. And therefore, as he puts it in in chapter three, we've therefore established that you know, both Jew and Gentile are under sin. Right? So that's what he does in those chapters, and this is not to knock that all down in in chapter three, it's not to change things in chapter four, it's to establish the foundation of the fundamental problem that humanity has a serious heart problem. It's not solved by Israel getting the Torah, because the Torah only indicts Israel for what they do, which is the same stuff that the rest of humanity does. So then if the Torah and circumcision and these other things don't solve that problem, what will? So that's where we get to in chapter two, and there's that little reference to heart circumcision, there's a reference to uh receiving the spirit at the end of chapter two, just very, very, very uh little. Uh but he's he's now gesturing to what the solution will be later, but it's not the Torah, it's not circumcision, it's not these things that that are powerless against the fundamental problem of human sin and then the consequent death that results from that. And so then we get into chapter three, and he says, Yeah, so therefore here we are. And then the question that he starts with is so are we not better off then? You know, I mean, are we are we in the same position? He says, Well, not exactly. God gave the Torah to Israel, Israel has an advantage because he gave them the very oracles of God. Whereas, you know, the rest of the world is operating in ignorance and and doesn't even realize the the death that has captivated them, Israel at least knows. But it doesn't solve the problem of death. Right? And so this is where he sets all this up in those first chapters. And for the remaining part of Romans, what he does is he tries to explain how the death and resurrection of Jesus and the giving of the Spirit solves, as the Torah explains it will, solves the problem of sin and death. A problem that that the Torah, as an external code or as external instruction, was incapable of doing. It wasn't capable of coming into the person and changing a person's motivations so that that person would actually do what's right. It could only say, do this, don't do this. The instruction doesn't change whether or not you want to do that, whether or not you will do that. So you're you there has to be a fundamental change in you, and that has to come from some other source. And for that, he says, Well, that's what Jesus came to give. He came to facilitate that transformation that's gonna make you into a different kind of person who does the things that please God, so that when God judges impartially, as he says in Romans 2, it's gonna go well for you because he's changed you.

SPEAKER_01 39:35

Yeah. No, and that that leads us directly to Romans 9 through 11. And there has been a long-standing tradition in Pauline scholarship of treating that, though, those three chapters as something of an aside. You know, uh, scholars like Christopher Stendhal are noteworthy exceptions to that, where Stendhal recognized that 9 through 11 was kind of like the climax of what Paul was getting to all along in the letter. And I think you kind of take that same track in your book too, although you can correct me if I if I'm overstating that. But basically, what we have in Romans 9 through 11 is that argument that you've been you've been making up to this point about what Paul is doing in Romans. And then he starts off in the first five verses talking about the anguish that he has over the fact that Israel doesn't seem to be repenting in light of their Messiah. And then he says in Romans 9:6 that not all is that they are not all Israel who are Israel. And then in 1126, Paul says, all Israel will be saved. Uh, so what in the world is going on in Romans 9 through 11? How does it like so because I do want to go through the details because generally when people go to Romans 9 through 11, it's to try to justify their theory of predestination or God's sovereignty or whatever it is, uh, it's obviously a lot more complicated than that. So give us the big picture. What is Paul trying to do in Romans 9 through 11 and how does it relate to the rest of what he said in Romans?

SPEAKER_00 40:49

Yeah, so you know, I think again, a way the way to kind of understand this is to recognize that okay, if Jesus is Israel's Messiah, as Paul has been proclaiming throughout the rest of the book of Romans, and if everything he said from Romans 1 through 8 is true, if it works, you still have a big, big problem. You got those two big problems that I highlighted earlier. The first is okay, so you're saying that, you know, Christ has uh has come to give the Holy Spirit, and that the Spirit is being received, and that now through him we say Abba Father, and now, you know, we are we are uh uh we are justified, we are sanctified, we are uh prepared for glory and for and and given eternal life in these various ways. That that's great, Paul. That's all what we would expect. But here's the thing we kind of expect that to happen for Israel.

unknown 41:55

Right.

SPEAKER_00 41:55

We we kind of expect that to happen for the 12 tribes as they return and are reunified with with the Jewish portion of Israel, so that you get Jew and uh non-Jewish Israelite joined together in one people of Israel. And that this is the this is the expectation. You know, if we're gonna get Israel's resurrection by, you know, the Spirit is the means of Israel's resurrection in in Ezekiel 37. The next thing that happens in Ezekiel 37 is that the stick of Ephraim and the stick of Judah are joined together so that there will no longer be two separate kingdoms, but they will be under one king, under the descendant of David, and under God's direct rule in some sense, and that they will be one kingdom and that Israel as a whole will be will be restored. Okay, Paul. Um looking around, I'm not seeing Reuben's return. Uh, can you explain? Can you explain to me where uh where Nafdali is? Uh I would like to know where they are, and and how's this how's this gonna work? And by the way, you keep talking about the nations here. That that's great and all, but that's that's secondary if if it's something, if it's a concern at all. It's not what's promised in terms of Israel's restoration, it's not what's promised in terms of who the the Spirit is promised to. So how are we doing that? And so Romans 9 to 11 comes in and addresses that and says, okay, yes, so Jesus has come to fulfill what would what to fix the problem that was needed to be fixed for humanity and for Israel, and that is the problem of sin as as having captured the flesh and the problem of of of sin in the flesh that that produces death. Great. But how does that actually fulfill the promises? And that's Romans nine to eleven. And so this is about more than just the question of yeah. What about the Jews? Because as Paul himself says, well, you know, if we're just talking about that, like, you know, look at me. He's like, I'm from Benjamin. Right. Right. I mean, there there are people, the majority of Jews, or the majority of Christians at his time, the majority of Jesus followers in Paul's day were still Jewish. Right. And you know, it would not be surprising to any apocalyptic-minded Jew in Paul's day that many of their fellow Jews didn't participate. Right. If you go to the if you go to the Dead Sea Scrolls people, the most rigorously stringent sectarians in early Judaism who are absolutely expecting God to work on behalf of all Israel, and you said, Hey guys, um see, I'd love to believe what you guys are saying, but the rest of your your your can your contemporaries, you know, those Jews over there in the in in Jerusalem, they they don't agree with you and they're not following what you have to say. What do you have to say about that? Isn't that a problem? And their response would be, yeah, it's a problem, but it's their problem, and they're not gonna they're just not gonna participate in this. And when God fulfills his promises, they're gonna be swept away with the rest of the nations. Oh. But what Paul does is he does something a little bit different, and he says, Well, it is true that not all who are from Israel, who are descended from Israel, are in fact going to participate in this way. True. But it's also true that God has bigger plans and that God can improvise, and God is going to find a way and has found a way to redeem the whole people of Israel through the ingathering of the nations. And then he has to explain that over the course of those three chapters, and that's basically what he does, and he does it in a very rhetorically sophisticated way, and actually, in in many respects, I think Paul's biggest flaw, his biggest weakness, is that he is he is very he's oversophisticated. He could have said some of these things in in an easier fashion and spelled it out in in various ways, but that's just not the way that that rhetorically oriented uh speakers and and writers in his era did it. You know, it the the ability to demonstrate through the through elegant illusion and uh uh and you know very subtle references and things, that's the sort of thing that that that authors took great pride in at that time. And you know, he's a he's a a good example of that. And he's a he's someone who's presuming a whole lot of uh of capacity on behalf of his of his listeners, probably because you know, with with Romans, he's not just sending it in the mail, he's sending it with someone who's there to help explain it.

unknown 46:54

Right.

SPEAKER_00 46:55

Uh with Phoebe, with the with the with the letter carrier. So you know, it's a different context in that respect. And so he does this in a very sophisticated way, but ultimately he he he demonstrates and comes to this conclusion at the end of chapter 11 where he says, you know, I don't want you to be ignorant, but Israel has experienced a uh a hardening in part until the fullness of the nations comes in, and so in this way all Israel will be saved. At which point you're like, wait, what if you're not if you've not been paying very careful attention to everything he's said before, that doesn't make any sense.

SPEAKER_01 47:33

Right.

SPEAKER_00 47:34

But if you've been paying attention to what he's said before, when you see when you realize at the end of chapter nine that he says that uh that that God's people are being called from both Jews and Gentiles, as was written in Hosea. And then he cites something about a promise to the northern kingdom of Israel, and you go, Oh, wait a second, this is what he's doing. And so he then, by the time you get to the end of chapter 11, he's explaining, you know, the the the restoration of Israel, that you're kind of looking around going, hey, what about that, Paul? That is exactly what's happening with these Gentiles who are receiving the Spirit, and that's how that's happening. And so he's he's wrapping that all together, and that's how Romans sort of the big theological argument gets wrapped up.

SPEAKER_01 48:22

Yes, and I I want to go back to the way that Paul uses the Old Testament there, because as you said, you know, he he makes a lot of Hosea, but then in Romans chapter nine, he's interpreting the um Isaac story, he's interpreting the Jacob story, and he he looks at several passages in Exodus about Pharaoh and about God's plans. And a lot of the times those are read as justification for predestination that God picks before eternity began, who's going to be damned and who's going to be saved in the end. Uh, but that's obviously not the context that Paul is writing into in Romans 9 through 11. So I want you to talk like kind of broadly about how Paul is acting as an interpreter of Israel's scripture, of Israel's scriptures in those passages. And then what exactly is he doing in Romans chapter 9 as he builds towards that climax of Romans chapter 11?

SPEAKER_00 49:08

Yeah, so you know, again, at the beginning of Romans 9, he is uh he is spending he wants to establish a particular um paradigm for how God interacts with humanity. And he does start from the idea that God picks out certain people through whom to work. But one of the things that I think is a has been a big mistake of a lot of modern interpreters has been that anytime they see a language of election or choosing in the uh in the New Testament, they presume that that means chosen to be saved, or chosen to receive eternal life, or chosen uh not to be damned, right? Not to go to hell. Uh, whereas everybody else who's not chosen, they're they're the ones that are condemned in this fashion. Right. But that's not what these figures are chosen for in the pattern that he's laying out in in the beginning the that uh first section of Romans Romans 9. Uh who's chosen for what has to be the question. And and that that is too little asked of, you know, when you say chosen, chosen for what. Uh and what he's talking about is actually the inheritance of the specific uh covenant with Abraham, the promise that is passed down from Abraham to Isaac, Isaac to Jacob, and then actually the end of Genesis ends with Jacob passing it down himself as well, uh, passing it down specifically to Ephraim, uh the the old the younger son of of uh of Joseph. And so, you know, the whole the whole book of Genesis is in some sense from chapter chapter 12 on an account of the passing of that particular promise, of that particular uh covenant from Abraham down to, you know, at each generation, it goes down to one. And this helps explain a little bit. I mean, I'm surely you've wondered at times uh about uh Esau uh you hit you have uh Jacob and Esau, and Esau comes in to be blessed, and Jay and Isaac says, Your brother came in and he already he stole your black your blessing. And Esau understandably asks this question of like, Do you have only one blessing, my father? Bless me also. And you know, I think that's a perfectly valid question. Like you we see all sorts of other cases where someone gets blessed and then someone else gets blessed. Why can't there be two blessings? But the inheritance of the promise of uh, and there's a specific promise that passes down from Abraham to Isaac and from Isaac to Jacob and then Jacob on. That in that particular promise has to do with uh has to do with the nations specifically, has to do with uh uh Abraham is told all nations, uh those who bless you will be blessed, those who curse you will be cursed. And then he's told, uh he's told, in your seed all nations of the earth will be blessed. Interesting. Okay, well that passes down, and we see the same or very similar wording given to Isaac, that Isaac is told that you know that that uh the nations of the world will be blessed through him. And then Jacob gets the same blessing of the nations, and then Jacob passes the same blessing of the nations down to Ephraim. That's the that's chapter forty forty-eight of uh of of Genesis, and things wrap up shortly thereafter. So that blessing, that passes down, and Paul says this was passed down. Certain people were chosen to bear that particular thing, were chosen to be the the delivery mechanism for this blessing, but what were they chosen for? You have to know this, right? They're not just chosen like, oh well, Abraham's chosen to be saved and like screw everybody else, right? Abraham's Abraham is chosen specifically to be a blessing to the nations. Jacob is chosen specifically to be a blessing to the nations. When we get to the Exodus, what is Israel chosen to be? A kingdom of priests for all nations, right? So this is something that is in the background the whole time. And then the question is, okay, well, if they're chosen for this, what happens if they disobey? What happens if they don't do? And Paul's argument is look, it's not really up to them.

unknown 53:49

Right.

SPEAKER_00 53:50

Right? Whether they obey or not, God's going to bring about what he chose to bring about through them. With their cooperation or not. And it turns out, and this is where he goes into the potter and the clay stuff, God will bring this about with your cooperation or without. Better to cooperate. Right. But if you don't cooperate, he will find a way to improvise and use your disobedience for the purpose for which he chose you in the first place. And so he, you know, he he uh forms with much patience vessels uh of of wrath that are uh amended or or uh uh fixed for destruction. And then it's okay, is that for their own destruction? Is that for the destruction of God's enemies? There's a lot of ambiguity here. Right. But the idea is that God chooses these people and then even their disobedience, just if they're a stubborn piece of clay that won't submit to his hand, he's gonna do what he says in in Jeremiah uh chapter 18, and he's gonna ball them up and remake them into something else as he sees fit that's gonna serve that purpose. And that's what Paul says. This is how this is working. So this is how God has always worked with his people. And so dissent does not guarantee participation in this particular covenantal thing. Secondly, even if you were selected to be a a delivery mechanism of that, of that, uh, of life, that doesn't guarantee that you receive it. And thirdly, even if you disobey, your disobedience is going to be used for the for the grander, for the larger purpose, even if it doesn't help you.

unknown 55:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 55:37

And so this is the this is the way that he puts this all forward in chapter nine. But then he wraps up chapter nine with this large scale redemption of, oh, and by the way, even if you wind up cast out and shattered among the nations, God's God's redeeming love is so great that he can even go and pick up all those pieces and put you back together into something even greater than what he would have made in the first place. And so this is the larger thing that, oh, well, you know, Israel didn't cooperate, so I guess that's the end of it. No. Instead, God uses Israel's disobedience to actually bring all the nations into Israel in the end. And so this then becomes the means or the mechanism for God, uh God's uh restoration of not only Israel, but of all of all the nations and of all humanity through this larger purpose.

SPEAKER_01 56:32

All right, I love it. There's a lot for my audience to chew on there. I I got one final question for you, and that has to do with the impact of your argument on modern Christian theology. So, those of us in the modern world that take the Bible seriously as an authority, when we look at the scope of what Paul is doing in Romans through the lens of the resurrection of Israel, in what way should that impact the modern church and the way that we think about our relationship with God, our relationship with the wider world and Christian theology in general?

SPEAKER_00 57:01

Well, I think one thing that I would start with is that uh for Paul, the gospel is not just Paul is not preaching fire insurance. Right.

unknown 57:16

Right.

SPEAKER_00 57:17

Paul is not going around saying, okay, let's just make sure we get as many people to pray that they believe in Jesus as possible so that they can go to heaven when they die. And I don't know, uh, I don't actually know where you live, but you know, here in the southeast with uh uh in the Carolinas and down through into uh Georgia and Florida, you get a lot of these um billboards and so on of like, do you know where you're going when you die? Or um, you know, you get like the sinner's prayer on successive. Yeah, I'm I'm from Kentucky, so we get a lot of those here too. So there you go. So you get these things where it's like, you know, uh forgive me, forgive me, Father, for my sins. I trust Jesus, you know, and you have this whole thing of like, say this now. And it's like this idea that if you just in this proto-Gnostic uh or in this uh in this um modern Gnostic form of uh specific evangelicalism, you have this idea that if you just say the right words and you you you believe them enough, then that's what Jesus came to give you the capacity to do, so that you could you could pray that prayer so that no matter how the how anything else goes the rest of your life, you'll at least be forgiven and you'll be able to go to heaven when you die instead of burning in hell for all eternity. And that's just not what Paul's preaching. Yeah. I think if we're gonna be, if we're gonna look at this uh and we recognize what Paul's doing with respect to Israel and the promises to Israel, then we have to we have to recognize that the gospel for Paul is all about restoration and all about transformation. So it's about restoring humanity to the original purpose for which humanity was created. And it's about transforming the human heart into something that is not actually dominated by sin and by selfishness and by all of the things that lead to the judgment that he talks about, the negative judgment. Instead, the gospel is all about what the prophets are promising in the Old Testament. Israel, you are going to disobey, you have disobeyed, depending on which part of the narrative you're reading and what you know, whether you're looking at the Torah or the or the prophets. But I am going to sprinkle water clean water on you, and you will be clean, and I will give you a new heart and a new spirit, so that you will do all the things that I command you to do, right? I will write my law on their hearts, and so they will all know me, from the least of them to the greatest, and and again, and they will do my statutes, right? So this is the idea that I will circumcise your heart so that you will love me and live. You will do what you know, what what someone who loves one another or who loves the other will actually do. So what Paul is proclaiming is the the transforming spirit that changes the heart and completely radically transforms the ethical behavior of those who receive the spirit. And if that's not part of what you're what you're understanding as the if that's not central to your gospel proclamation, then you're not you're not preaching what Paul preached. And again, recognizing what he's where he's getting his his stuff and recognizing what he thinks is being fulfilled with respect to Israel, you realize, oh, this is a little different. This is about that larger transformation. This is like I said, it's not fire insurance, it's not salvate Paul is not preaching salvation from the consequences of sin, from the penalty for sin. He's preaching salvation from sin, which is very different.

unknown 1:01:05

Right.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:06

And as that characterize it characterizes uh larger humanity and also has infected Israel. So that's number one is I think once we recognize how closely this is connected to the promises and the Torah and the prophets, there's no getting around that transformational foundation. And the second thing I think for Americans in particular, for a lot of American Christians, is it has to it it it it forces it forces us to look at some of the political questions with respect to, you know, okay, well, how how do the promises of Israel correspond to modern geopolitics? For a lot of modern Americans, for a lot of current Americans, there is a kind of unconditional support for the nation-state of Israel, no matter what, because that's Israel. Right. But that's not exactly how that works. You can't you can't actually take that view if you're reading Paul carefully, if you're reading the New Testament well. That doesn't mean that, you know, oh, well, then in that case, then you know, uh there should be no support for the modern nation-state of Israel. No, of course not, right? Uh, but it changed, but it it it brings up a different way of understanding how all these pieces fit together. And I think the third thing is recognizing then the inherent brotherhood of Jews and Christians. At the end of Romans 11, Paul actually insists, he says, Look, they, speaking of those who are unbelieving among his countrymen, he says, they are still beloved for the sake of the fathers. So anybody who wants to say, Oh, well, you know, if they're non-unbelieving Jews, they're they're no longer important to God because, you know, they're they're they're out of the covenant. Paul doesn't think that. Now, Paul also hopes for the salvation, he hopes that, you know, through his preaching that some of them will be saved. He doesn't necessarily think that they're that that their election, that their being beloved necessarily results in a good outcome for them. And again, if you read the prophets, that makes sense. I mean if you were uh you know in Samaria in 724, the fact that you were chosen doesn't really really mean that you were going to be saved from the Assyrian onslaught, right? I mean, uh you you have this idea that um that that actually in the prophets election only brings greater responsibility and greater judgment with it. And Paul agrees with this, but at the same point, this means also that there is a very close and there should be a a a strong sense of closeness and brotherhood between uh Jews and Christians, and Christians ought to think of Jews as uh as continuing to have uh specific favor uh uh uh in this respect or specific election, and uh and that that doesn't really go away, but they also aren't the only ones with that election, and they also aren't the whole of Israel, and so there's a a larger piece of this if you're looking at this um from a modern perspective that I I think it it just changes the way that all these pieces fit together uh for for modern Christian theology.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:35

Yeah, well, uh Dr. Jason Staples, I love it. Again, the book is uh Paul and the Resurrection of Israel. I would highly recommend it to everyone listening today. Thank you so much for your time. Before I let you go, you have a lot of articles and a great website, and you're you're kind of just out there on the internet. So for people that want to find your work and follow you, where can they do that?

SPEAKER_00 1:04:57

Um the easiest way is my website, jasonstaples.com. That has then links to uh everything else, whether you want to bring me in for a speaking engagement or um subscribe to my Substack or any and the Substack is really what I keep up to date on. And you know, I haven't put up a post in about uh two months now. Uh I've been uh prepping on uh prepping some other stuff, but uh we'll be getting some stuff up there here uh as the summer wraps up and and then keeping up with that over the course of the rest of the year and and following. But the Substack uh then is linked through there, but everything basically runs through that, and then uh uh that sort of serves as the sort of central hub uh that you can find everything else, whether that's YouTube or or uh other things uh through that. So I would just say jasonstaples.com. All right, perfect. Well, Dr. Staples, thanks for coming on the show today.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:45

Thank you so much, Alex. This was a pleasure. Thank you for listening to another episode of the Protestant Libertarian Podcast. If you have any questions or comments, please reach out to me at the Protestant Libertarian at gmail.com. You can also find me on Twitter. You can follow me at the handle at Pro Liberty Pod. Again, that is at Pro Liberty Pod. And you can also visit me at the Protestant Libertarian Podcast.com. At the Protestant Libertarian Podcast.com, you can also support the Christians for Liberty Network and the Libertarian Christian Institute. Thank you guys so much for listening to this episode, and we will see you next Tuesday.