65. Help! My Kids Hate Writing with Julie Bogart

Does your child groan at the thought of writing? Do you struggle to help them put their thoughts onto paper without frustration? In this episode of Raising Kind Humans, I sit down with Julie Bogart, author of Help! My Kids Hate Writing, to explore how parents can become their child’s writing coach rather than their referee.

Julie shares practical strategies for nurturing a love of writing, encouraging self-expression, and creating a supportive environment where kids feel confident putting their ideas into words. We discuss:

📝 Why so many kids resist writing—and how to shift their mindset
🎭 The power of playful, low-pressure writing exercises
💡 Ways to help kids find their unique writing voice
📚 How reading, storytelling, and conversation fuel strong writing skills
🤝 The role of parents as cheerleaders and guides—not grammar police

If you've ever felt stuck when trying to help your child with writing, this episode is packed with insights and encouragement to make the process more joyful for both of you!

🔗 Resources & Links:
📖 Get Julie’s book: Help! My Kids Hate Writing
🌐 Connect with Julie: Website | Instagram

Grab your FREE KindSchooling Guide and get started with the KIND Method today! 

Join the Team Kind Collective for monthly, themed kindness activity guides delivered to your inbox.

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Start your KindSchooling journey today. Head to www.teamkindhumans.com or follow me on Instagram @teamkindhumans!

Transcript

Help! My Kids Hate Writing- with Julie Bogart

​[00:00:00] 

Welcome back to the Raising Kind Humans podcast. I'm your host, Katie Doty, and today, oh my goodness, we get to hear from Julie Bogart round two about her new book, help My Kids Hate Writing, and. I don't know about you, but for me, I feel like I have been on a journey of healing my own inner writer and the way that I was taught to write and the purpose of writing, um, is very different than what Julia's talking about and the way that we should be teaching our own kids how to write.

And this book. It goes above and beyond, um, kind of helping the adult through their own writing trauma and then offering such tangible, easy, kid friendly ways to help your child find their inner voice, find [00:01:00] their, , confidence in writing and being able to express themselves, which I think is one of the biggest gifts.

That we can give our kids, kids who are able to self-express. I think not only does it help them emotionally, but it also empowers them to be able to use their words for good. , which is one of the missions of raising our kids to be courageously kind, is to be able to speak up for others and share their opinions, um, and be loud about what they believe in.

And Julie's book is a guide you need on your bookshelf. Go pre-order it right now, it comes out soon. And , it's something that will help you on your journey to being a partner with your child. , and on that note of raising courageously kind kids, I wanna invite you along to join the team kind collective, which is my membership that, , sends you a monthly themed activity guide that takes your kids through the kind [00:02:00] method, , and gives them tangible ways.

To give back and to get involved in their community. And I'm also adding into the collective right now, um, is the super kind kids club. And I'm creating a space just for kids where I will give them kindness challenges and thoughtful questions and a space for them to connect with other change makers. So I would love to have you join and come along on this journey with me as we figure out how to raise our kids to be kind.

Confident, empathetic, , thought leaders, , moving forward and writing is one of the most important ways that we teach our kids to do that. 

So I'm really happy that you're here on this journey with me, and I'm so pumped that you get to hear this conversation with Julie. You're going to want to buy her book.

So help my kids hate writing. Go grab your copy right now. She also has some incentives, um, and things [00:03:00] that you get with a pre-order, but you, I promise, go buy it. You're gonna love it.

So without further ado, please welcome Julie.

Katie Doughty: , Julie, welcome back. I'm so excited I get to say this. You're the first person to be a returning guest on the Raising Kind Humans podcast, so welcome back. Okay, well, I like being a returning guest and I love your show, so thank you. That's very thoughtful, 

Julie Bogart: very nice. Oh, 

Katie Doughty: I can't, and I thank you. Were I meant to go back and look it up and see, but I think you were.

Maybe number seven. So you were super, super early on and now I am, you know, 65 episodes in or something like that. So good job Congrat. So happy to have you. Congratulations on that. That's great. Aw, thank you. Last time we talked about your book Raising Critical Thinkers. This time we get to dive into help my kids hate writing, which is so, so good.

Um, is this your. What number book is this? 

Julie Bogart: Four. It's my fourth one. [00:04:00] Fourth one with Chart Perge, my publisher. But of course I've been publishing my own stuff for Brave Writer for 25 years, so yeah, but it's my fourth like traditionally published book. So yeah, I feel really happy 

Katie Doughty: about that. Oh, amazing. Well, this one is so good.

It's. So in your voice, I feel like you are talking directly to me. Like you wrote it for Katie. This is for me. Oh, wow. I love that. That was really the goal, so thank you. Yeah. It felt like we were just having a conversation like I was a parent trying to teach my child and you're like, here, let's sit down to tea and let me tell you all the things I know and how I can help you.

So awesome. You did an amazing job on this book and I'm gonna recommend it. To everybody. I know. 

Julie Bogart: That's fabulous. 

Katie Doughty: Yay. 

Julie Bogart: That's what I 

Katie Doughty: wanna hear. I do have to tell you though, I feel like this episode is going to be a little bit of a therapy session for myself, for other parents who are trying to teach their kids to write.

Because as I was reading, I just felt so validated, um, in my own journey as a [00:05:00] writer and then how I feel about teaching writing, because yes, growing up I went to public school, so I learned to write for a grade. I learned the rules. I followed the rules. I got the grades I wanted because I could follow the rules.

But I remember taking this creative writing class and it wasn't based on, there were no rules and I felt severe anxiety about it because I didn't have the rubric and I didn't have the structure that I had grown to know. And I was like, but what do you want? What do you want me to say? And how long does it need to be and what you know, what details are?

And I thought. Now as I was reading your book, like, oh my gosh, I didn't learn to write for myself. I learned to write for a teacher or one person that was gonna give me a grade, right? So can we unpack the trauma of writing for a grade and now trying to teach our kids how to be these creative writers that [00:06:00] express themselves and can get their thoughts down?

Julie Bogart: Yeah, if we, if we roll it back a little bit, the first goal of writing way back, you know, 57,000 years ago when they were painting horses on the walls of Lisko caves in France, the goal was communication and self-expression, right? You're trying to represent something that lives in your mind and your imagination, and you're trying to get it somewhere more permanent.

So I know we'll make markings. Right. Uh, just as a side note, the Inca for instance, never developed a writing system, so it's very hard to like know what their government was like or know what their society was like. And it's all transferred orally, so it died away. When they died out. I. What writing has done is it has given us the opportunity to take what normally lives in our minds and gets expressed through our mouths to take that ephemeral communication and make it more permanent.

And that permanence enables us to learn from each [00:07:00] other, to be entertained by each other, to be informed by each other, and fundamentally to get to know other people in a deeper, more, uh. A personal way, even if they're journalists, even if they're hardcore astrophysicists, writing is meant to be that tool.

So when we're in school, we lose touch with that feeling, and we think writing is about preparation for some other goal. Like, okay, I'm gonna learn to write in third grade so that by fourth grade I can write a history paper. The reason I'm writing a history paper in fourth grade is so by junior high I can write an essay.

The reason I'm writing an essay is so by. Senior high, I can write a research paper, et cetera. Yeah. Until I finally get that really important college degree or graduate degree and can actually do real work in the real world, that view of writing, I. Completely depersonalizes what shows up on the page. It ends up being about figuring out what lives in the mind and imagination of the [00:08:00] teacher, and then hunting and pecking around in the air for those words.

And then almost like, you know, rolling the dice, hoping you found enough of the right ones to be moved on to the next phase of the writing life. But that just really has nothing to do with writing. What I find amazing is a lot of parents say their kids hate writing, but then I actually show them that their kids love writing and it always shocks them.

So if you'll time travel with me for a moment and we go back to the 1990s at the dawn of the internet, when it became the worldwide web and we had dial up modems, it was shocking to discover that children everywhere were clamoring for a space to write. Here we hear that they hated writing in school, but the second we threw open the doors of the internet, they're doing live journals in MySpace.

Eventually, social media, text messaging, Reddit, discussion boards today, discord. Social media like [00:09:00] TikTok, podcasts like they're creating to self-express and be seen and heard is bottomless. Yet you get them in a third grade class and ask them to write about their favorite pizza, and they suddenly say, I hate writing.

That's not true. So we have to examine what are the conditions that promote this craving to write, and the ones that inhibit writing, oh my gosh, I think it's school. 

Katie Doughty: I 

Julie Bogart: think in school. 

Katie Doughty: I really like the way that you just laid that out though. Like in third grade, I'm going to write this so that next year I can write this and that.

That's pretty much how my brain works when I'm teaching my kids, because I'm thinking long term, okay, where do you need to be by the end of your schooling with me? How do we, what are the steps to get there? But then after you're reading my, your book, I was thinking. I, I'm just going about this so wrong.

And it really opened my eyes to what exactly do I want for my kids? And it's for them to be able to express [00:10:00] themselves. Bottom line, can they get their thoughts down on paper and feel confident about what they have to say. And I really liked how you said the whole point of writing this completely changed my view, the whole point of writing.

It's for the reader to keep reading. It's like the most simple thing. And yet it was so profound for me because I am very much like, okay, it's topic sentence, and then you have your three details, and then you have your closing and then you move on to the next paragraph. But really it's not. It's boring that way.

So how do we help our kids be able to express themselves and break these so-called rules that we've put upon them to feel free and open to getting their thoughts out? 

Julie Bogart: You know, it's so funny. I remember when I was first trying to write my first writing program, the Writer's Jungle, and I sat down, I still have the notebook in fact, and people had been telling [00:11:00] me, oh, you should write a, a book about how to do this.

Because I had been teaching these like workshops and everyone found 'em really valuable. But when I sat down to write the manual, I immediately felt this weird pressure to explain what a paragraph is. So I sat down and I started writing, you know, what is a paragraph? And I got two sentences in and I was so bored, like just by my own writing and the idea of defining a paragraph, and then I just stopped and I thought, I don't believe in this.

Yeah. This isn't how I've ever taught writing. It's not how I learn to write. It's not how professionals teach people who want to get paid for writing. So where did this come from? And it got me on this like journey of doing research and really trying to understand. The difference between how professional writers teach writing and the way educators teach writing, and there is a fundamental difference.

Professional writers, when they're teaching writing are usually teaching adults who know how to type or how to hand write, but what they're [00:12:00] basically doing is they're asking those adults, what do you have to say about this topic that's interesting enough that someone would pay you to read it. Right?

Katie Doughty: Mm-hmm. 

Julie Bogart: So they're focused on writing voice insight, generation, originality, fresh language, this sort of like package of emotional aspects of writing. And then they help them sort of get it into shape so that it fits whatever the format is. In school, we go the other way around. We're like, okay, the package I want as the outcome looks like this, let's deconstruct it and then let's rigidly fill in the blank, right?

To achieve this goal. But here's what's wild about that. That end product is really interesting. Um, and there was a really good example of this that happened in my life. I had a friend named Glenda. She asked me how I was teaching my kids to write because her pro, her program that she was using was failing.

And I said, well, I don't have a program. And [00:13:00] that blew her mind. And so I said, well, let me see what you're using. So, you know, I was in my late thirties. My kids were like fourth grade on down, and she pulls out this big. I can't stress enough how ugly this blue binder was. It just looked so official and, and uninviting and I opened it up and the first assignment was a descriptive paragraph.

I. There was a sample paragraph to read and then instructions for what the child should do. And she had tried to get her kids to do it, and they failed to live up to this sample. So I read this sample paragraph and I looked at her and I said, did you read this? She said, yeah. I said, did you like it? And her answer to that was, what do you mean?

I said, well, like when you read this sample paragraph, did you think to yourself, darn it, I wish there were a second paragraph. Right? And she goes. No, I can't even remember what the sample said. And I said, okay. And I just slowly closed the binder and I said, listen, why would we teach writing with a sample [00:14:00] so dull you don't even remember it?

And expect that if your kids reproduce that they would enjoy doing it or that it would be good writing. Lots of very dull writing has gotten an A in school, but dull writing does not make it in the real world. If you have dull writing on an Instagram post, you get no likes, right? In fact, the kids who spend a lot of time on the internet, and that's a whole debatable topic by itself, but just in terms of their writing skills, those kids know how to hook a reader.

Katie Doughty: Yes. 

Julie Bogart: Kids who spend a lot of time writing fan fiction, writing captions being clever, they understand instinctively that the best writing compels a reader to keep reading. And you're right, that's the foundation of writing. 

Katie Doughty: Absolutely. And that is so true. I like how you compare it to the social media post or a blog or something where they wanna capture that attention.

They want to hear that their friends or their peers like what they have to say. [00:15:00] I remember, I think it was maybe sixth grade and it was, we were writing paragraphs and they made us do. It. We had to label the sentences. So the first one Ts topic sentence, and then it had to be a concrete detail and then two commentaries.

And I remember being so confused between what a commentary was and what a concrete detail was. And I would try to fit my sentences in and I would think, this sounds awful, but this is what she wants, so this is what I'm gonna do. But it wasn't in my voice. It was so boring and I never used it again. So 

Julie Bogart: how?

Right. Yeah. And, and part of the thing is like there are structures for writing, but there are structures for speech as well, right? Mm-hmm. So when a child is learning to speak, the way we begin isn't, okay, honey, before you say your first word, here's what a sentence is, right? Right. When, when my son Noah, was 12 months old, and he was sitting in a high chair and I was washing dishes, he said his first word, he said, Nana.

Did I wheel around and [00:16:00] say, oh, Noah, Nana is a part of a word, and the word is banana. It is a noun. It goes in a sentence like this. I would like a banana. And because it is a request, you need to use the oral format called etiquette. So I need you to say, mama, I would like a banana, please. Like that's how we teach writing.

Right, absolutely. But with children, they start out and they're like, Jan, and then what do we do? We write it in the baby book and turn them into writers instantly we're like, well, um, this is so good and interesting that generations from now will want to read that very first word. Right? We believe in the language so thoroughly and over time they take speaking risks.

They say things like Me want nana. Me want Nana communicates. It's not the way we express it when we're using standard modern English, but we know what is trying to be said, so we fan it into flame. We might even say things like, do you mean to say I want a banana? We don't say. [00:17:00] Honey, until you correct your grammar, we can't be speaking like that's not how we treat.

Speech writing can be approached the same way, and by the time that child, my child hits five and he yells from the other room, Hey mom, get me a banana. That's when I can enforce the format of etiquette, which is, Hey, how do you say that? Then he has to say, please or please, mom, I'd like a banana. When your child is five though, you don't put 'em in front of a board meeting and ask them to do a financial presentation.

You don't send them on a job interview. You don't put them on a show where they have to represent their ideas extemporaneously. At five. They can be expected to be polite. To say please and thank you, to thank their grandparents for birthday gifts. They can be expected to organize language into a short story because you've been reading to them for five years.

But we don't need them to be writing essays with points in particulars in third grade. And so by the time they're [00:18:00] in high school, if they've had this experience of unleashed self-expression that gets nourished and nurtured and modified gently. When you come along and say, well actually now take that self-expression and we're gonna use this other container.

It's called the essay, and this is kind of what it, you know, we're gonna read a whole bunch. So you get the feel for what they are, and then we're gonna experiment with putting your ideas into that format. They can do it. Yeah. But if your whole life, every format feels like a brand new way to express yourself like it's a foreign language, then you never get out of writer's block and you endlessly feel frustrated.

And that's why kids hate writing. 

Katie Doughty: Yes. And one of the things you talk about too that really opened my eyes and helped me separate, um, my expectations was that writing is really two parts, two things are happening. One is their thoughts and their ideas getting down on paper. The other is mechanics. They are not together.

They are separate. And as a parent [00:19:00] and as a. Trauma writer, like I had a hard time not seeing all the mistakes because, and I think too, as a homeschool mom, like I am the sole person teaching my kids to write. Oh yeah. And so when I see those mistakes, I judge myself because, oh, we haven't covered that. I haven't said it enough.

Or They should know this by now. I don't, I, I mean, I do so honest. It's true. Right? And it's something that I have to work on. And I, but I loved the permission that mechanics really is. Such a tiny piece of the writing, all of the thoughts and the self-expression and the ideas in getting your ideas on paper.

That's the main part of writing. I. Yes. Can you speak to that? 

Julie Bogart: Absolutely. So first of all, just know that writing is transcribing a mind. And so when a child is born and they don't have any language yet, they spend the first five years becoming a fluent accent free native speaker of [00:20:00] whatever language is in their family, right?

Like I have a grandson whose home language is Spanish because the dad is span is from Mexico, and the mom is American and speaks Spanish. So his. Heart language. His native language that he is flawless in at age three with a perfect accent is Spanish. For most of our families, it will be English right by five.

The level of sophistication of their verb conjugations sentence structures, you know, the way that they'll put like, um, these complex phrases together that if you were to write them need commas or semicolons. They do this with natural ease by the time they're five, but by five most kids, and I would say that's in the 90 percentile, are not reading and definitely not handwriting.

So along comes this new skill, these two new skills they have to learn how to read and how to use a pencil. Their vocabulary, their verbal skills are so far ahead of [00:21:00] that mechanical skill that when we ask them to write down their thoughts. We are literally asking them to do something they can't do. 

Katie Doughty: Yeah.

Julie Bogart: They do not have the mechanical fluency to take dictation from their minds at the pace of thought. So what happens? We've got this first grader, they've just learned to read. They know their whole alphabet, they know how to hand write, and then we say, okay, I can't help you. You must write all the thoughts in your head.

Your kid has two choices. They're either gonna just throw whatever phonics they can imagine and the few bits of punctuation they've absorbed at their writing, and so it'll look like a mess. The handwriting will be bad. There'll be no capital letters. They have misspelled words that you are sure they know, and yet they've captured their thoughts.

They've written down the things as they thought them. That's one option. The other option is to prioritize the only mechanics they know, so they don't make any mistakes. So what do they do? They dumb down the content to match their [00:22:00] limited mechanics, and in my world, that's the tragedy. 

Katie Doughty: Yeah. 

Julie Bogart: Perfect.

Spelling is not the goal for an 8-year-old. It's not even the goal for a 12-year-old. It takes 10 years to go from not having mechanical skill at all to fluency. So that's eight to 18. So that means your 12-year-old is only halfway to that goal. You're gonna see so many misspellings, so much missing punctuation in those first drafts.

But here's what's amazing. Once your kid is a fluent reader and they keep reading every year. Their capacity to go back to their own drafts and notice what they need to fix, which spelling errors, which punctuation that's missing grows, and they can actually. Execute at a pretty high level in a one two step where they draft without thinking about any of that stuff, but their ideas.

And then they go back days later and put on the visor that goes with the editor outfit and they get out their [00:23:00] red pen and they correct their own work. And you'll be shocked at how much they can correct. But here's the more important part. Whatever they don't correct. They don't know. Yeah. So why are we holding kids accountable for what they don't know 

Katie Doughty: yet?

Ugh. It's so true and so validating, and you have a lot of really good advice in, um, your book about how to handle this. Yes. When you see it, and one of my favorite things you said, practice your facial expressions in the mirror right now. Pretend like you're seeing a misspelled word you've seen for the 17th time.

What is your face going to look like? Because I thought that was genius. It's true because we automatically are like, oh, you know, and you give that kind of frow brow or whatever it is, and then they're getting the message that, oh, I did something wrong. As opposed to, but look at all this amazing, um, all these amazing ideas you have down on paper.

Right? And we need to see those first. We 

Julie Bogart: [00:24:00] have to see those first, and we have to treat the mechanics. As they are, which is just this necessary mechanism for getting your thoughts down so that people on the internet and your grandparents won't abuse you. Yeah. Like that's literally all it is because until the 19th century, there were no standard conventions for spelling.

Like you would see people using the same word three times in a document and spell it three different ways, and nobody cared. Shakespeare himself spelled his name five different ways. Like this is not, this is recent. Yeah, and it became standardized really with the printing press and newspapers and all of that.

There's nothing wrong with the standardization, but you are not morally superior as a human being because you can identify a misspelled word in a passionate. Facebook comment like that is absurd, and the fact that we use that to delineate moral superiority is part of the reason people don't like writing.

They are intimidated by the idea [00:25:00] they will be scrutinized. So I am a huge believer in the practices of copy work and dictation. Mm-hmm. These help students to focus exclusively on the mechanics without the additional juggling act of their own ideas. Right, so they don't have to think original thoughts.

They can let someone else think the thought, but they can give their attention to how to spell the words and how to punctuate. If you work on the mechanics of writing using someone else's writing, the mechanics will grow without all of that shame and blame and the feeling of failure. Meanwhile, we can turn on the.

Original thought life and let whatever mechanics they have show up on the page but not penalize them because they haven't mastered all of them yet. And by doing those two, almost like two pedals on a bicycle, over time, they sink up and it starts to move the bike down the road. And you will notice these skills they're acquiring in [00:26:00] dictation get borrowed into those original drafts as they gain competence.

Katie Doughty: I just love this. So much. It really has been so helpful in the way that I view my kids' writing and the goals that I have for them have altered because I see it so differently. And one of the things you talk about, um, is partnering with your child that you get to be the coach, not the referee. And. I think that part was so powerful for me because I think it's true.

I think we're like, oh, okay, you can hand write, you're on your own because I gotta see what, you know, it can't come from me. It has to come from you when really that's not how writing works in the real world. Now that I'm, I'm writing my own book and like my writing journey has been just. Full of growth and realizations of what I didn't know, what I now know how it works.

Sure. And you compare, this part killed me. I loved it. You compare being your child's partner. The way that Taylor Swift and Jack Antonoff are [00:27:00] partners, and for some reason that was all I needed to hear. And I was like, oh. I need to be Jack. I need to be Jack Taylor is literally using a coach, using a partner to get her words, her thoughts and ideas, and that's totally acceptable.

I can help my 12-year-old write what she wants to write, and it's not, I. Cheating or you know, overly helpful. It's just scaffolding her learning. So first of all, where'd you come up with Teyl and Jack? I love that so much. And second of all, let's talk about partnering and being a coach. 

Julie Bogart: Yeah. So honestly, I worked with my mom.

As a kid, my mom is a professional author. She's passed away now, but she worked with me as a kid and I tell a story in this book, which by the way, she died right as it was going to press. And when I was doing the audio book and had to read this story, we had to stop 'cause I just couldn't stop crying. But she has such a huge role in my understanding of what it means to be [00:28:00] coach.

So I wanna tell that story and then I'll explain the Taylor Swift um, comparison. Okay. So when I was in fourth grade, I had to write one of these, you know, short stories and it had to be. This is 1970s language, but this is what they were telling us to do. Either man against man, man against God, man against nature, or man against self.

Okay. Yeah. So today we would say human or person. Um, and I chose person against self as the theme. And the story was about traveling to Mexico as a family for a vacation, which my family had just done. We lived in Los Angeles, we took a train down to Gima, Mexico with three other families for, you know, beach vacation.

So I wanted my story to be. How the daughter in this family went shopping for some souvenirs in a Mexican market and got lost and separated from her family, and she had to use her own sort of chutzpah to navigate her way back to the resort, even though she didn't have a lot of Spanish yet. Right. So this was the story.

So I gave it to my mother and she [00:29:00] immediately read the whole thing and said how creative, how smart to use a real lived experience, wonderful way of expanding, you know, gave me like all the feedback I was craving, which is, isn't this great story mom? And then mom's like, yeah it is, right. Okay, so that's what everybody wants at the beginning.

Then she said to me, you know, I'm reading the introduction where you're talking about you and your sister packing to go on this train trip. And I'm just thinking about a lot of the books I read, you know, a lot of them start with like action or dialogue. And here you're just saying that you packed. What would you think about.

Adding something like that to the beginning and I was like skeptical. 'cause I like my writing. I'm like, oh, I don't know mom. And then she goes, well get out of your chair. Let's just act it out now. My mom was a theater major, so she's like very game for like play and acting. And so we get out of our chairs.

She just immediately starts pretending to be my sister, and she's like, I need my bathing suit, you know, and we're like opening, imagining [00:30:00] imaginary drawers, and we're packing imaginary suitcases and we're laughing and we're making, I think she made popcorn. I just remember it was very lively. And then she said, okay, stop.

I'm gonna jot all that down and then you can decide if you wanna put that at the front of your story. So she helped me imagine a new beginning, but didn't even require me to do it. Yeah. And she jotted it down for me because wow. The burden of me going through all that and then having to write it down.

And then we went through the rest of the paper and she just pointed out, you know, dialogue might help here, a little action might help here. And the next thing you know, I've rewritten the whole paper. I included that whole opening. My teacher loved it. I got an A, but what I really remembered was, oh. You have to grab the attention of the reader right away.

And that became like just a, a bedrock understanding of what writing is for me. And so here's the reason I think of coaching versus refereeing. A referee goes in with the rule book, right? Like the [00:31:00] Chicago Manual of Style, which by the way. A thousand pages of rules for copy editors. Like what? Parent knows all those rules, right?

None. What editor knows all those rules. None. We use that manual because it's impossible to master every single rule. So we go in at, if we're a referee looking for mistakes and holding people to the rules of the game, but that is not what a writer needs. That's what a publisher needs. That's what we need at the final step of publication.

But that is not what a writer needs. That would be like saying LeBron James, you need a thorough understanding of all the rules more than how to shoot this shot. Right? How to, you know, do a pick and roll, whatever. Coaching says, I see the talented human inside of you and I'm gonna help take out the roadblocks for that person to emerge.

Mm-hmm. So in my mom's case, let's get up and act this out, [00:32:00] not add more detail. I need to see dialogue. Where is. Action. You know, some notes on the side note, she like participated and modeled the very thing that she was imagining would improve this writing. But it invited me in. It included me. It allowed me to even draw on my own language, not just, oh no, I wonder what she had in mind.

I better try and guess what's in her head, right? 

Katie Doughty: Yes. Yes. And how lucky are we that we have the opportunity to do that with our kids? Totally. To be able to say. Let's play, let's just play through this. It doesn't have to be this horrific task for you to figure out and, and I think it's true even for adults.

You know, I'll write a draft of a chapter and I'll hand it to my husband. I don't want him to tell me that my sentence structure is wrong or that my word choice was, you know, you could change this. Tell me it's great. First. Yes. Tell me what you like. I wanna know that you validate what I have to say. [00:33:00] Then give me the critique and tell me how I can make this better.

And I, so it's true for adults, but more so for children. Like they want you to say what you love about it. Yes. And that is something to keep in mind. And being that coach gives you the opportunity to play. And one of the things that I really love, one of your examples was, you know, sometimes kids, they run outta words or they say, I don't know what to write.

And you have to help them unjam the log. The log jam, right? Yes. Like get the words out on paper and one of your, um. Ideas was to run it like a podcast. Oh. And that completely clicked with me because I wrote my first draft of raising kind humans, and I literally ran outta words and it was not long enough and I didn't have anything else to say.

So I started this podcast because. I wanted more words. I wanted to strengthen my vocabulary, my understanding, my research. I wanted people's stories. I just wanted to immerse [00:34:00] myself in this philosophy of kindness. And so I started this podcast. So when you were like, run it like a podcast, I thought, genius, this is genius.

Like, let's have a dialogue about, you know, if you're writing about soccer, okay, let's talk about it first to get more ideas. In your head so you can write about it. So can you speak a little bit more about, you know, helping kids get their thoughts out on paper? 

Julie Bogart: Oh my gosh, absolutely. So first of all, you can't get to any of your good thoughts.

If the immediate thoughts are, I hate this, this is hard. I wish I wasn't doing it. So one of the, uh, recommendations that we make about free writing, which is just letting your mind. Your hand coordinate to put words on a page is to not resist those words, to go ahead and write them. There's nothing wrong with putting the actual truth.

We're trying to hook up a, a hand with the ticker tape of thoughts, right? Mm-hmm. And we want the hand to move at the speed of thinking. We can't move at the speed of thinking if we're [00:35:00] disqualifying the thoughts. I've seen it countless times now. Kids will start out testing the parent, like to see if the parent really means free writing is free.

And they'll write, this is stupid. I hate this. I hate school. I hate my mother, you know? So then what do you say to that? You can't, you feel like you can't say, oh, this is really great writing. Thank you. But you know what? You can say Thank you for being honest. Thank you for the courage to put down thoughts that you know, I don't wanna read.

Like we can be just. Ourselves with our children. None of this cotton candy phony business kids can see through that in a minute. I was noticing, um, I put it in the book, but I, I didn't, uh, tag that it was my son, but my son wrote a free write that I found on my computer. While I was working on this book, and basically in the free write, he tells the story of how I had asked him to write, like do a free write.

And he decided to misspell all the words and Miss Punctuate and not write anything meaningful so that I would see how bad he [00:36:00] was at it. And I wouldn't ask him to do it ever again. And instead I got to the end and I was like, oh, thank you for writing. I'm so glad that you wrote. And he is like. That was nice.

My mom was nice. Oh, it was like, yeah, like it didn't freak me out. All I saw was a child who was really nervous about risking self-expression around me, and he took the opportunity to test it. My job was to hold space. So when we're talking about accessing the vocabulary, first we have to welcome the unwelcome words.

That would be the first principle, like, don't be afraid of your child hating writing. Let them write about hating it. By the way, it's really boring to write about. And eventually they stop. Yeah. They're like, I don't wanna write about that for 2, 3, 4 years. Right. They're gonna stop. Then when they start to take the risk, what happens is this, they usually know a lot more than they can keep up with, [00:37:00] with their hand.

So they write what I call these label words, these global words. So for instance. Picture showing up in a mall. You're 10 years old and you run into your best friend and you've just been to like Kings Island. That's a, um, a theme park here in Cincinnati, and there's a ride called The Beast. So your friend comes up and says, oh, you went to Kings Island.

How was it? Oh, it was really fun. Did you ride the beast? Yes, it was awesome. Oh good. Did you love it? I loved it. Was it scary? Yeah. Cool. Good bye. Okay, that's. Not really detailed communication. Right, right. That's how people speak. So when you first ask them to write, what they're gonna do is say, I went to King's Island.

I rode the beast. It was really awesome. It was super cool. It was really fast. I really loved it. That's what you're gonna get. If these two kids met up in the mall and one of them was going to talk the way they write, the, the first child would say, how was the beast? How was the rollercoaster to the beast?

The other child would say something like, as the cold metal bar clamped down on my hips, I [00:38:00] slid into the yellow seat. A thrill of fear, ran up my spine, clink, clink, clink. I went up the ramp. You know, like that's not how. Right. But that is how we want our kids to write, right? So what we do is we start with that oral, like what I would call shorthand communication.

Every word they say is loaded with language, but it's all hiding. Mm-hmm. We have to ask the questions that help them excavate their interior. So the child says in his writing, the beast was awesome. My first comment when I see the word awesome after I've said, oh, I'm so glad you wrote about the Beast. I love that ride too.

Then you say, it was awesome. Tell me more about awesome, and then you can ask these podcasty type of questions. I. What was it like getting into the ride? How was, was the seat comfortable? What did it sound like when you were going up the big part of the rollercoaster? Before you hit the top, tell me what was going on in your [00:39:00] body?

What were you seeing? What were you smelling? What were you hearing? These are ways that you help kids access what's actually in there, but they can't sometimes find it on their own because they're not in the habit of written communication. But here's what's beautiful. When you start asking those kinds of questions, sometimes they have the most original ways of expressing it because they are not overrun by adult cliches.

That's true. And so your job is just to coax it out, help them get it to the page, enrich what's already there. That's your job as a coach. 

Katie Doughty: Yeah. Absolutely. And being there to support them, even writing it down for them, which has been validating for me as well. It's okay to write their thoughts for them?

Yes, because we always feel like, oh, it needs to come from their handwriting so they can practice and they can learn how to do this. But really, if you help them get their thoughts down, they feel more validated in what they have to say because they see it. [00:40:00] In a professional setting, like it feels more authentic to them because those are all the words they wanted to say and not the, it was awesome.

It was fun. 

Julie Bogart: That is so true. And once they get the taste for what it feels like to have their authentic self, I. Preserved on paper, they now understand what it is to be an author. 

Katie Doughty: Yeah. 

Julie Bogart: Not just a student writer, but an actual author. And so we can start by jotting it down. We can make the transition to where both parent and child are kind of collaborating in getting it down on paper.

And there are lots of ways to do that. One of the ways is even to copy the words that you jotted down for them. What are you doing? You're creating, like you said, scaffolding. They said the words, but they weren't ready to transcribe at the rate of their own brain. Right? But these are their actual words, so if they're copying them themselves.

Their own copy work, they are actually writing their own words. So it's just a two step until they can start to bring those [00:41:00] together and it becomes more seamless. I think we're afraid of that mid step because school has made us think that if you involve yourself at all, your child is cheating. Yeah, and I think that's a very unfortunate view to take.

We don't take that view for driving. Yeah, we always go out with them when they're learning, when they're learning to tie their shoes. We don't take that view that from the time they have dexterity, we never touch their shoes again. You know, there are times where a child who knows how to tie a shoe. It doesn't tie their shoe and we tie it.

Mm-hmm. You know what those times are. Um, we have to get in the car right now. Yes, we're gonna be late for the appointment. Appointment, right? There are times when your child benefits from the adult skill you have, for whatever reason. They're tired, they're getting over, being sick, you're in a hurry. Uh, they started crying when they tried to do it themselves.

These are good reasons to provide support. And then on days where there's more spaciousness and more time and some confidence has been built, we say. Let's try having you [00:42:00] write. Let's sit down. Do the best you can. Don't worry about spelling and punctuation. It's your turn to practice hooking up your hand with your mind.

We'll just take it a little at a time. You don't have to do it perfectly. We grow that skill over time. We don't expect it the day they turn eight. 

Katie Doughty: Yes. Just because they can doesn't mean they should all the time. Right. That's true. Yeah. And I think too, I like what you said about free writing and giving them permission to get all of their thoughts down on paper, just keep the pencil moving and that it will not be judged.

Yes. And I think too, helping our kids understand that. You had mentioned, and this is something I've learned writing, my first draft is, the first draft is for you. It's for you to see what your brain has to say, how you feel about something. It's not for the reader. The second draft. Sure, go do a pass at it.

Make sure it's what you want somebody to read. And I love that you gave your kids [00:43:00] permission to do a free write, and if they wanted to share they could, but they didn't have to. And I think that provides such a safe space for them to practice without fear. 

Julie Bogart: Oh my gosh, completely. And in fact, for families where kids don't believe you, like they think you are gonna read it later, buy them a lock and key diary.

Oh yes. So they can lock you out. I'm telling you, more kids have become writers, including me through lock and key diaries. I still have my fourth grade one. My grandmother sent it to me and I was immediately enthralled. I had to find my own little secret place to write. I kept the key safe. You know, I really valued the privacy and I think we forget that we're exposing a self every time we write, even if we're writing about sharks for a report.

It's still my take on sharks. Yeah, it's still the research I accumulated. And so when you are risking self-expression. It's important to give time for a child to [00:44:00] determine, okay, is this one that I want read? Yeah. One of the ways that we teach revision actually is to do like seven or eight free writes, maybe one a week for a period of a couple of months, and then let your child only pick one to revise.

Let seven stay in the unrevised state so that your child starts to realize as well that not everything they write has to be taken through this arduous process. They have some discretionary control over what they improve and what they don't. That's a really liberating feeling as well. 

Katie Doughty: Yeah, absolutely.

And that is also validating as a parent because there are so many projects that we don't finish or we don't get back to getting to that final stage of writing. And I think that's validating for our kids to know you can write for fun and you don't have to do anything with it. And that's okay. Um, yeah.

Another thing that I really loved and we, okay, I'm gonna try to tie all this together in one coherent thought, but when we talked in raising critical thinking critical thinkers, [00:45:00] last time we talked about how giving your kids experiences, life experiences helps them grow their critical thinking. Yes.

Which is also true for giving them something to write about that they could be more creative writers and, okay, here's my part where I'm trying to like tie it all in. Pretend play. It helps. You had said this, I think in a podcast or something, pretend play is the precursor to creative writing. Mm. And I loved this because our experiences fuel our pretend play, which fuels our creative writing and also our critical thinking and our ability to show kindness, respect, and understand other people's ideas, thoughts, problem solving skills.

So it all goes. Back to give your kids rich experiences. Can you Oh my gosh. Speak to that. 

Julie Bogart: Yeah. Wow. You did a great job and it's, it is what I believe. Even if we're doing, [00:46:00] let's say, a dissertation on epidemiology, you know, something very scientific and clinical, it is still coming through your human instrument, right?

Yeah. It's what you chose to read and not read. It's the research that you criticized as well as the research that you applauded your choices. Your experiences guide what you write. So when parents say to me, oh, a brave writer is just creative writing, right? I'm like, what? Writing isn't creative. Every single bit of writing anyone does is generated from the well that lives in your body.

And that is a creative act. So. Creative often gets tagged as fiction or fantasy or storytelling, but that is not true. All writing starts from the source of a person and it is being created by you. So I just wanna make that clear. So when we're talking about experiences, when your kids are learning, the first thing they do is they want to have a [00:47:00] firsthand experience.

Right. They don't want a secondhand or abstract experience. You know, if we're gonna talk about slime, they wanna make it. Mm-hmm. They don't wanna just hear somebody tell 'em about it. And the same is true for like reading a story, like reading Robinhood. And then as soon as they're done, they go in the backyard, put on a cape and a hat, and grab a bow and arrow.

Right? They're like, now I need to inhabit this to see what it felt like to be Robin Hood. So for writing, what we notice is that as kids get older and they're doing more and more reading, they start to realize that writing is a place where they can inhabit those experiences at this next stage of academic development.

And a lot of times parents will see their child, like I had someone write me just the other day, they have a child writing fan fiction for Lord of the Rings. And she's like, and they're just stealing everything straight out of the books. Same names of characters, same locations, and I'm worried it's plagiarism.

And I said, no, that's [00:48:00] fan fiction. Yeah. This is a child who, you know, three years ago would've dressed up in dress up clothes and acted it out in the backyard and you wouldn't have thought it was plagiarism. So true. But today they're using the language of writing because they're valuing literature to try and have the same experience like living in the world of the orcs, living in the world of Frodo.

They're just wanting to be in that world and they're using writing to do it. Never stop that child. Do not call it plagiarism. Do not correct their spelling or punctuation. Do not tell them they need a beginning, middle, and end. Just like you wouldn't say to a child in dress up clothes, you need a beginning, middle, and end.

You would just let them enact the one scene That was interesting. Let them use writing for that kind of exploration because it's both growing them as a thinker and a writer. Yeah, so powerful. 

Katie Doughty: It's so good. And there have been times now that my kids, you know, I have a plan, I have a checklist, I have things I think we should be doing.

They're deep in this [00:49:00] pretend play library or whatever it is that they wanna do. And I have to tell myself they're just working on their creative writing. This counts. 

Julie Bogart: Yes, yes, it absolutely does. In fact, one of the things that I, I really wish more parents understood is that oral language. Activities are essential to growing as a writer, you know, so playing these games, like I used to play these games with my kids all the time.

We would go through the alphabet A to Z, and we would try to pick words that started with each letter in a vocabulary domain. So like, let's say you're talking about skateboarding. We're gonna try and find a word for every letter of the alphabet about skateboarding. Ooh. Do you know how much that grows your vocabulary?

You are really working hard when you get to some of those letters, right? Or cooking, or even something more, um, you know, academic, like you've studied the Civil War, and now we're gonna go through and try and accumulate vocabulary. That goes with the Civil War. [00:50:00] Sometimes what's missing is just that breadth and kids need that support.

Um, I had these two middle schoolers, my two oldest kids, we had just done this whole unit on Japan, import export, 19th century, 20th century. We were really into it. And they had developed this desire to see how long they could free write for. We had been doing free writes for three minutes, five minutes, seven minutes.

So we decided to do a 20 minute free write. Could they write for 20 minutes straight without stopping about a school subject Like that just sounds, yeah, they were like. Sixth and eighth grade or something like that. So I said, okay, this is a great goal, but here's what we're gonna do. I'm gonna help you achieve success.

So the first thing I did is I said, tell me everything you remember that we've studied just like in topic categories, and I got out a note card. We just made this long list, you know, who were the importers? What was the religion? Who were the books we read? What were, you know, what was the topography?

Anything we could [00:51:00] remember. We just put in a long list on all these note cards. We went and got a globe and set it on the table and turned it towards Japan. We got out our green tea, our chopsticks, all of our sushi gear. Put that on the table, put all of the historical fiction books we had read on the table, like we just.

Collected everything related to Japan, stuck it on the table, set the timer. And this is what I told them, whenever you get stuck, just look at something on the table and start writing about that. Whether it's a topic in that list or it's an item on the table. And you know, they still had more to write after 20 minutes, like they stopped, but they could have kept going.

And I think this is what we forget, that writing needs fuel. Mm-hmm. You cannot just. Create writing out of thin air. It's like kindling a fire. You've got to keep supplying it to keep the fire burning. And so our job as the parent is to remind kids that the resources are all around them. [00:52:00] When I'm writing a book, kind of like what you did with kind humans, when I'm writing a book, if I get to a dead end where I can't think of what to say, I am like, oh, I need to do more research.

Yep. I just ran out of vocabulary, ran out of ideas. They won't come to me just sitting in this chair. So I've gotta stop writing and go back to the well and find out what else I wanna say. Find out what else has been said and what commentary I wanna give it. Our kids don't know they're allowed to do that.

Yeah. They think it's all supposed to come out in one draft Perfectly. Yes. That's what school teaches. Yes. 

Katie Doughty: Oh, and how validating to give them that tool of being able to go back and watch videos or read articles. Yes. Or go to the library or go to the zoo if you're talking about a certain animal and just bring it to life and give it.

I think one thing that I learned from your book is giving it time to breathe. Yes. I don't need to just give them an assignment and have it do the next day. We can take our time to really develop that vocabulary, get their understanding, give them [00:53:00] time to just express themselves where it doesn't matter.

No one's gonna read it and then structure it and go back and clean it up. And for me, that was really helpful as a parent for sure. 

Julie Bogart: Oh, I'm so glad. You know, the one topic that I. Feel really passionate about in this book that I think will be really life changing for parents is the chapter on revision.

Mm-hmm. Because usually where things break down is when the parent wants to give feedback and the child feels insulted. Yes. Right. So this is where like the log jam happens. One of the things that I know about kids is that when they do that first draft. It's the best they can do. Mm-hmm. They're not holding back.

When we come in with revision feedback, the message the child takes is, you should have already known how to do this better. Yeah. That's the thinking. It's not, oh good. I'm glad you have a draft. Let's improve it. The feeling is you should have done it this way to start. Like, where, why didn't you do it this way to begin with?

And the [00:54:00] child's like, I gave you everything I know how to do, and now you think I can give you something else. I can't give you something else. 

Katie Doughty: Yeah. 

Julie Bogart: So that's where the log jam happens. One of the, and, and the other thing is, my mom used to say this and I loved it. She says, in all her years of teaching adult writers, she said, whenever an adult writer would write a first draft, and, and my mom would talk to them about how it could be improved, they were always shocked that they could find more words.

Because those first words that come out feel so amazing. Like, whoa, these words came outta me. I don't know how I got 'em here. They're on a page Uhoh, don't ask me to find more. Right. You know? Right. Like, I might not find any. And so I keep that in mind with kids all the time. They don't know how to find those additional words.

So one of the things that I want kids to understand about revision is that they can mess with the writing without improving it. Mm, that the place to start is just get getting comfortable with messing with it, with changing it. And you can even always go back to the original if you liked it [00:55:00] better. But before we can ask kids to improve their writing, they have to be willing to change their writing.

So I invented all these low stakes revision activities, um, and they're things like. Rolling a dice, getting the number four, and then saying to your child, change four words. Just take four of the words that are in this piece and make 'em be something different. See what that sounds like. Another revision strategy, I don't think it's in the book, but it's in my curriculum, is to turn the piece into a lie just Oh.

Everything that you've written, now you have to evaluate, how far am I taking this lie, right? So if the sentence is, I enjoyed breakfast at the hotel on a spring morning, is it I, or is it you? Is it enjoyed or hated? Is it breakfast or lunch? Is it in a hotel or a school? Is it on a spring day or a winter night?

Right? Like you really start asking. What can I do to this to change it? And when it's playful like that, [00:56:00] kids start to catch on. Oh, my raw material is just clay. 

Katie Doughty: Yes, 

Julie Bogart: it's just something that can be moved around and molded. And I give a whole bunch of suggested ways to engage with revision in that low stakes way.

And I haven't yet found a kid who doesn't wanna try them. That's what's funny. Like we can't get 'em to do like high stakes revision where they fix things, but boy, low stakes, they start to really catch on. Oh, by changing it, I might even be making it better. Mm-hmm. And it's inadvertently occurring, so that's really nice for parents, 

Katie Doughty: you're really, really good at.

Seeing this subject through the lens of a child. And what I love is that your book is so hands-on tactile project based. Like, here are your steps, here are things you can do. Is your child saying this? Try these three activities, which a lot of books are based on theory and principle and I Right just. You know, those kinds of topics, but I need to know the [00:57:00] how.

And your book really addresses the how, and I just wanna encourage all parents out there, go read it. Because this is one of those books that you can come back to as your child progresses through these stages of writing, that you can do these projects and try to use writing as a playful event and not this stressful Yes.

In the box thinking. So I just, I wanna applaud you for one. Just speaking directly to the rear, like I felt so seen and validated. Good. And then two, giving those really tangible ideas of how to further your kid and get them excited about writing, because I've tried a few of them and it's just incredible how quickly the kids are like, oh.

Well now I love writing. You know, they've been saying, I hate writing, I hate writing. And now I'm like, I love writing. You know what my kid told me the other day? We're doing your groovy grammar workshop right now. Oh God, I love that. I love grammar. Like, who says that? Who says that? But it's so [00:58:00] playful, it's so simple.

It's so fun and accessible for them that it gives it a new perspective on writing. And I'm, I'm just really grateful for that. 

Julie Bogart: I wish more education thought about the way children experience the world, 

Katie Doughty: right? 

Julie Bogart: Because the second that we do it through the eyes of a child, not an adult in training. We catch their attention and they are actually engaged and interested.

And so I appreciate you noticing that because that has been my whole mission for 25 years, is to get behind the eyes of the child, try to inhabit what is this struggle? Why is this struggle? Not shaming, blaming, coercing them out of it, but really supporting them in developing skills they value. Yeah. And they can only value them if they appeal to them as a child, you know?

Yes. 

Katie Doughty: A hundred percent. 

Okay. We forgot to run back to Taylor and Jack, so let's. Dive back into that topic. 

Julie Bogart: Yeah, so when you were talking about partnership, the [00:59:00] reason I brought them up is sometimes Taylor even gets criticized. People make it seem like she didn't write her own songs as though she has to write every single word of every single song and every single note for her to claim that she wrote it.

But it is the most natural thing in the world for writers to collaborate. Every professional writer has an editor. Literally, my editor gives me suggestions, makes comments, tells me to reorder the chapters. Those are natural and important relationships. Just like all of our favorite athletes, tiger Woods has a coach.

His coach can't play as well as he plays, and yet his coach can help him be a better player, and that is literally what partnering means. It means a person with an outside perspective can look in on the creative activity of the other person, the writer. The songwriter, the athlete, and give meaningful input that helps them realize their full talent and [01:00:00] capacity.

And so that's the Jack Antonoff and Taylor Swift relationship all the way down, and it has created. You know our favorite songs. Exactly. 

Katie Doughty: I'm so grateful for their partnership because That's right. I do love her music. And I think it's also such a nice reminder as a parent, because I always feel like my child has to do it by themselves or it doesn't count, but in this case, that's not the real world and that's not what's actually happening.

And I'm learning that too as I write my book, like, oh. I'll have an editor that will fix this for me. Like I just need to get my thoughts down. That's, and then I can collaborate with somebody. It's not always an isolating task, and so I love the comparison between Taylor and Jack.

So where can we find your book? When is it coming out? When can, yeah. People can pre-order now though, which I highly recommend pre-ordering so you have it on the day it comes out. Oh, thank you. Yeah. 

Julie Bogart: It comes out April 15th. I do have a couple of pre-order bonuses because that's fun.

Um, there is a free, the [01:01:00] writer in You, free writing guide for the whole family. Ooh. That comes automatically if you upload the receipt to our little, um, link. I'll give you all that information. Uh, going to julie bogart writer.com is where my book is living, and you can pre-order it there. The second pre-order bonus is three free months of my substack, so you'll have the equivalent of a paid membership for three months starting April 15th.

And the name of that Substack is Brave Learning with Julie Bogart, and it is. All about supporting home education, writing parents. Uh, this week I had an article on AI in writing that policing AI is not the way to go. I had another one on big hairy, audacious goals, how we can set those with our kids and catalyze their learning.

So, and every Friday we share free writing prompt. So that's a great way to. Keep your kids writing and growing and Oh yeah. We have a podcast for kids on substack. It's called the Monday Morning Meeting. It's five minutes a week where I speak directly to your [01:02:00] young children to help them embrace their own learning adventure.

I love 

Katie Doughty: it. I love that your whole philosophy is family based. Not only are you helping the child, you're helping the parent who's helping the child, and I feel like there's been so much learning and growing on my end as an adult, as I'm learning alongside my child and kind of rewiring my own writing brain and the way that I see it.

And I just love that you've set up this community to be family oriented. 

Julie Bogart: Oh my gosh. I wanna just like copy and paste what you just said and share that everywhere. That is so my goal and you just said it so beautifully. So thank you Katie. That was amazing. 

Katie Doughty: Well, I believe it and I'm cheering you on and I'm so grateful.

Thank you that you came back on the podcast round number two. This was so fun and I feel like I could keep talking to you for hours and hours 'cause I still have so many more questions. Um, but for now, we will say goodbye and I will share all of this with everyone and I encourage everyone to go get the book, help my kids hate writing.

Thank [01:03:00] you.

I hope you enjoyed that episode. As much as I enjoyed recording it and talking to Julie, I think there are so many takeaways that you can use right now, um, in helping to empower your kids to be confident writers. So I'm glad you're on this journey. If you wanna continue with me and be part of the team, kind, collective, you can find all that you need it.

Team kind humans.com. Um, and I would love for you to join this mission of raising courageously kind kids. I'm here for you. I'm cheering you on, and I will see you next time.