Hello and welcome to the Hope Unlocked podcast . I'm your host , kristen Kurtz , and I'm also the founder of New Wings Coaching , where I empower and unlock women to soar in their calling and roar with their voices . If you're curious to learn more about how coaching can help you unlock your potential , be sure to explore the show notes for ways to connect with me further . Get ready to dive in as we uncover empowering keys and insights in this episode . So tune in and let's unlock hope together . Welcome to the Hope Unlocked podcast . I'm Kristen Kurtz , your host .
Speaker 1I pray this episode is like a holy idea of hope for your soul . Please help me welcome my friend Janine from South Africa to the show . I am so excited for you guys to get to know her a little bit better . Another friend of mine is , if you guys have listened to the show for a while , these friends that I meet on social media have been such blessings . So those of you who have discounted social media and thrown it away , I just encourage you to go on and use it in a way that is for connection , for you to encourage others , and that's what my dear friend Janine and I believe he really divinely connected us , so we'd love for you to share a little bit more about yourself with the audience , and we'll get into it , hi .
Speaker 2Kristen , first of all , thank you so much . It's such an honor to be invited as one of your guests and to finally be making this happen . I know we've been chatting about it for quite some time , so I'm really excited that we're connecting .
Speaker 2So just a little bit about myself . I live in South Africa , I've been married for 19 years and I've got three children , one daughter and two sons . And , yeah , I've been called as a prophet . So Function is as a prophet , and I have a ministry called the secret place , which I started up last year Okay , it was just last year , huh . Yes , it's been sort of going in the background for a while , releasing prophetic words and being mentored , but I officially gave it a name last year . I just felt that everything that we do , if it isn't birthed out of the secret place and being in the presence of God , it needs to really flow from that space . So the secret place has got a very special meaning to me and I felt that it was the most appropriate ministry name that I could come up with .
Speaker 1Oh , it's beautiful . Well , tell us a little bit more of you know just even how this ministry was birthed and maybe your journey to where you are now .
Speaker 2Well , I actually think I'm going to start at the beginning without going too far back in time , but I think it's just so relevant with what we're going to be discussing . I really felt to be sharing with you and with the listeners just a little bit of a message about my journey and my testimony and then how that sort of filtered into eventually stepping into this calling , and so I'm going to go back to basically . I was raised in a Catholic home , as was my husband , and we had absolutely no exposure to the gifts of the Holy Spirit operating in the body at all . So we had no Ephesians 411 model with prophets and apostles and pastors and teachers and evangelists , and as a young girl I would just sit and talk to God and I would have visions that even back then I sort of had an understanding as a child of the secret place and God would show me visions of this church and it would have worship and people in plain clothes that were doing ministry and my spirit would just come alive and I'd get so excited .
Speaker 2But I didn't have a context for it . It had absolutely no framework at all because I went to a conference school with nuns and on Sunday I would go to church and there would be a priest and the priest would be wearing , you know , priestly attire . So I had absolutely no context for what I was seeing , but I knew that I was going to be there one day . I was going to be in the space where people were worshiping and there was just joy and in hindsight I can understand that God was removing me from a religious structure and system and calling me into freedom and into , you know , a more spiritual place where , if you call this a prophet or , you know , if you really have a calling on your life , you need to be in an environment where that's welcomed and embraced . So it all makes sense now , but didn't have much context for it at the time .
Speaker 1Wow , that's incredible , even as a child , to not even be in that realm . You know that he was birthing this in you . Like you have been created for this purpose to see and to . Yeah , I'll let you keep going , but I just think it's incredible . I didn't grow up in church , so I didn't have any context at all going on .
Speaker 2Well , you know it's . I think sometimes it's actually you've got to unlearn what you know an incorrect model before you can really learn God's ways . So it's sometimes easier for people that get saved and they've never been exposed to church than it is for people who have grown up in sort of like a different kind of doctrine , because there's a lot of unlearning that happens with that . But eventually I left the Catholic church pretty much when I was , I think , 19 , and then I met my husband and he was also raised in a very strict Catholic castle . So my mom's Portuguese , his mom was Lebanese , so you know , very traditional Catholic , and the two of us embarked on this five-year journey with like a house church movement that was headed up by an elderly couple beautiful , very solid , very word-based elderly couple and they disassembled us for five years and just gave us such an amazing foundation and that that was that . That was the process of unlearning and just unpacking and everything was just back to the word , back to the word . And I love that because it gave us a plumb line and an appreciation for , you know , for the word and such a good foundation . And we did sort of we would bounce around . So we did pre-marriage counseling . We did marriage counseling , we did inner healing training , but it was just really a time of being equipped and encouraged , you know , to start a journey towards Christ's likeness . And then , after five like really precious years of being discipled by this couple , I had actually fallen pregnant .
Speaker 2By that stage we were married and I started really longing for community and corporate worship and I think that the vision that as a little girl that I'd had , like I wanted to be plugged into a really thriving , flourishing community , that was spurred forth . And so we were told that there was a very anointed prophet running a church nearby and our family suggested that we visit . And we did visit and I think this was the initial sort of pulling towards the prophetic . But I remember that even the first time we went , it was there was such an intensity and it was so different and we felt a little bit unsure . But I thought , you know , we've come out of a house church movement with mentors , and maybe it's us , maybe we'll adjust . So you know , this was really us entering into what I would say is the first , the one and only really toxic experience that we've had with church and with the false prophetic . And it's just , it's such . It's been something that I've wanted to share , but want to share with such wisdom , because I feel that there's , I feel that our experience is going to potentially help others to to just have a like sort of a sneak peek into what we went through some of the red flags , and hopefully a little alert them to what a sort of toxic church model looks like versus the Ephesians model that Jesus has really given us as a blueprint .
Speaker 2So we were at this church for three years and really enhanced that . It's hard to believe that we stayed as long as we did , because I look back now and you know , as I said , it was like red flag upon red flag and it seems so obvious in hindsight . But we had had no exposure prior to the Catholic church and prior to house church and we'd never had any exposure , of course , to prophets , so we didn't know what that was supposed to look like . So , yeah , so basically , I just remember , you know , after a while just picking up like a red flag here and a red flag there , and then , after some time had passed , there were so many that there's just no longer a piece within your spirit and you just know something's very wrong and you know , unfortunately , what would happen in this environment is that there was a lot of gas lighting , so people had left this church before and the prophet would always say that prophet , in sort of in brackets you know would say that the people that had left had come under a spirit of rebellion and they were being misled by the enemy and said lots and lots of gas lighting .
Speaker 2And so you always have this inner unease and wrestling Is it me , is it the church ?
Speaker 2And then really praying and praising in and I'm so grateful for discernment . But yeah , I mean , the word says to us in Matthew 715 , beware of false prophets that come to you in sheep's clothing but inwardly offeroscious wolves . And I really can say that you know we've walked that road and we've been through that for three years and you know I'll chat a little bit more about some of the sort of toxic traits . And then you know the counterfeit verses , really what is of God and how to hopefully weigh that up and give the listeners some insight into what to look out for . And some of it might be in isolation , fine , but when you group it all together and there's so many red flags , then it's time to really be praying and asking God for discernment and that was the case with us is you can sort of brush off one thing , two things , but when there's a whole cluster of things it really is time to be pressing in and seeking the Lord for clarity and praying about moving and leaving .
Yeah , so for those listeners who maybe don't know what gaslighting is , could you just share with them what you would attribute gaslighting Like ? What does that mean to you ? Yeah , sure , so it's a little bit of a thing that's talked about a lot and I don't know that many know what it means . You know I'm going to do that .
Speaker 2So gaslighting is often associated with narcissistic personality types where it's a lot of manipulation , a lot of maybe the word brainwashing is a bit of a stretch but , for instance , a lot of sort of blaming , shaming , explaining to . So , for instance , if somebody had really found fault with the church that we were at and they had left because there wasn't transparency around finances , it would be construed as you've got trust issues , you shouldn't be questioning things . Clearly , you've got a trust issue . So that would be an example of gaslighting . Is it's taking a situation where a person has a genuine right to query something , but the situation gets spun and they're made to look like the problem and that's obviously a very toxic model , very controlling . But that would be an example of gaslighting .
Speaker 1Yeah , thank you for sharing that . I just really felt like there might be somebody that doesn't know what that means , right ?
Speaker 2Absolutely , absolutely . So just to expand a little bit on kind of the things that we picked up on , and I just want to say that I think if it had not been for our foundational five years , where we really had a solid grounding in the Word , we would have maybe been led astray completely . Maybe the church has since closed , so the Lord has dealt with it , and so I can not going to obviously mention names or the name of the prophet or anything like that .
Speaker 1And I love that you're researching that right .
Speaker 2Yes , yes . So it's okay to talk about this really and all of that , but without that solid grounding in the Word and a personal relationship with God , I think that we may have been there until the doors closed , but the Lord really gave us warnings and we could feel in our spirit , man , that something was off . So one of the things that really for us stood out was control . So control is sort of the first point that I would address . And it became very apparent that we were in a controlling church when certain things happened . Like , for instance , my daughter was at kids church and I remember going upstairs the ones and just randomly out of interest , I wanted to know what she was learning . And so I asked and I said you know , what is , what are you guys doing this evening ? And they said , no , we're teaching the children magic . I thought magic , what on earth ? Like , I mean really magic . Like are you doing a magic show ? Like is it ? I mean what kind of magic you know and why , in a church context , would even a magician type . So that totally threw me in and I said you know , I want to know what this is about . And they refused to engage and they said to me . I need to send an email with my questions and concerns and if the prophet feels lead , he'll respond . And that was stock standard . If the prophet feels lead , he'll respond . Wow . And then my husband invites it a few men from the live group to see .
Speaker 2Do you remember the Christian movie courageous ? Hmm , there was a really good movie . What's ?
Speaker 1it sorry .
Speaker 2It's a firefighter , yes , yes , that's right , it's a lot of men and they're all dads and they've got their different stories and it's going back about , I think , 12 years or something like that . But it was great . I mean it was just a Christian movie . And so Nick invited a group of men from live group to watch courageous with them , and the next thing we get a phone call and it is I believe , you know , I believe you've invited these men to go and watch this movie .
Speaker 2Did you get consent from the church ? Really , really , you know . So that was like a little bit strange . And then we again , we asked a young girl from Bible College at the church to babysit our daughter and received a phone call . Why had we asked this specific girl to babysit when there is a list that the church secretary has of recommended babysitters ? We're like because we're her parents and like we connected with the school . I mean it was bizarre . So the level of control and intrusive behavior is very much linked to cults and cult churches and really at the heart of it it's to disarm members from critical thinking and decision-making and to numb you into blind compliance . There really is no gentle way to put it . And if you had said to me prior to this you know what is a cult ? I honestly would have thought that it's people living in a commune and there's one man with a hundred wives and that's a cult .
Speaker 2I didn't think that you could stumble into one down the road that looked at surface level like a church , so that was quite eye-opening . So yeah , so that's control . So I've kind of broken it down into a few things that I think may be helpful little or big red flags , but I don't know if you've had any .
Speaker 1I was wondering like did the pastor or not pastor , but the prophet , did he ever respond to your email ?
Speaker 2Never , never , never . Fault led , never , fault led . Okay , you know . And then the second thing that really stood out as kind of like a big red flag was self-exaltation and pride . And you know , jesus gives us a very healthy model in Ephesians , where you know , he is the cornerstone , christ is the cornerstone who builds his church , and he gives us as gifts apostles , prophets , pastors , teachers , evangelists , and he gives us five appointed functions , and really it's less about the title and more about the function , and it's for a purpose , and the purpose is for working together in mutual submission to bring the body into the fullness of maturity . You know , and that's Jesus's blueprints . And I feel like it's not .
Speaker 2It's not just we've had an extreme example , but you often see it where there's a lack of submission , or , you know , man building man's church and man's vision and not actually building Jesus's church , and there's no submission to God . And so that became very evident . Of course we had it at a heightened level and so it was very different . But if I look at that , in contrast to what I now understand , you know , years down the road about the biblical model for church , you're not always going to find the five-fold working in perfect synergy , but there ought to be some accountability and submission . And if you've just got a prophet running a church but there's no pastoral functions , you know what happens . When the body needs a pastor , there is the evangelist that's really going out and ministering to the lost . So there's a reason why Jesus built his church the way he did and didn't censure it around . You know a man and his title .
Speaker 1Right .
Speaker 2You know , and so there were a lot of examples and at first , as I say , we didn't really have a context for it , but subtle things that became major things .
Speaker 2The more the scale sort of came off our eyes , more heightened awareness there was and again , in isolation , nothing wrong with this , but when you add it all together it really paints a picture .
Speaker 2So , you know , the worship music would play and everybody would get you know , be worshiping , and then the prophet would make his entrance and it was always like a grand entrance and it got me thinking , and the ones I had this revelation while we were in church and there was all this sort of heart and fanfare when he entered and he wouldn't participate in worshiping God and I thought to myself we're all worshiping God , the God of the universe , but when the prophet enters it's as if at that moment the main attractions arrive . But is God not the main attraction ? So something to be cognizant of . And I mean , I know that there are conferences and I know that there are sometimes people in ministry praying and preparing , and that's a very different set of circumstances . So I don't want to frame everything as being wrong , but you know , when you get revelation around this from God and he gives you a download . In that kind of situation , it really is food for thoughts .
Speaker 1Yes , yeah , and do you feel like ? I mean , this will probably be something that you'll go a little bit deeper on later , but just in general , are you seeing this on a heightened level or so now than you've seen before ?
Speaker 2You know , I've become more aware of it and why . I realized , you know , the more sort of dig into the area of the prophetic and more invested I am in , obviously , the prophetic calling and my own calling . I see the model of the platform and all of that . And you know , God gives you influence and influence is great and if it's God or day influence it's wonderful . But it's very different from self-exaltation and with that pride and and building a following and drawing people to yourself versus drawing people to Jesus . So I think there's such a fine line and I think there can be such a temptation for people and not necessarily just the prophetic , in all aspects of ministry to be making the ministry an idol and making you know and people idolizing people in ministry , which is very unhealthy .
Speaker 1Yeah , absolutely , and , like you said , there is a very fine line . Yeah , and for those who like , would you say , if you look back at this particular person who was , you know , leading , is there something like that shifted in this person at some point , or do you feel like it was kind of there the whole time you guys were going to this church ? Would you say there was like a shift , or does that make sense when I'm asking ?
Speaker 2Yeah , unfortunately , I really do believe and I know it to be the case now , but I do believe we were exposed to a false prophet operating out of divination , so we really had the full end of the spectrum exposure to that .
Speaker 2But you know , it can happen where people in ministry start out , start out small , and then they get more and more influence in these attempts and then there's the temptation and or finances or following , and I think everybody's susceptible to the flesh and to the approval of man and that kind of thing .
Speaker 2But it's just , it's so important to be careful of that , you know , to remain centered on Christ and being Christ like and you know some of the things that would happen , for instance , is with this kind of model , which is such an unhealthy model , is we would have a life group or comms or small groups I'm not sure what you call them in the States , we call them life group or cell group here . But in those settings , instead of talking about God and about Jesus , it would be prophet exit and prophet exit and quotations , and you'd see on social media people quoting the prophet all the time . And you know to do that on occasion is fine , but when you actually have people that are just blindly following and not hearing God for themselves . That that is a really toxic model , because the prophet you know , the New Testament prophet is actually supposed to be equipping the saints to be hearing God for themselves not to create a dependence on itself .
Speaker 1Yes , absolutely , and that absolutely sounds like what this model was teaching and creating , which is so off .
Speaker 2Exactly . And , you know , even scarier Kristen is . I've seen a lot of situations where every now and again I'll have a friend who'll be looking for a church or something like that and they'll reach
out and they'll say have you heard of this particular prophetic person ? And are they solid ? And most of the time I don't know who they are , but I'll go and I'll take a bit of time and I'll check up the websites and I'll try and get a bit of a feel and then pray and try and advise a friend .
Speaker 2And on a couple of occasions I've had friends reach out and they've been these payment systems where it's like a tiered payment . So you come in it , for instance , bronze then gold then , or bronze then silver , then gold and platinum , and the more you pay the more access you have to the profits . And I look at that and I think it's so blatantly obvious that this is a pyramid scheme and a business model and it's mammond . But you know , people are like scrambling to try and get a word and get closer to this person that they've put on this pedestal and it's really scary . So there again it's like why would you pay for that when you can speak to God and have your own direct relationship with him . And yes , I understand that that takes work and time and focus , but that's what we're called to be doing . Everybody has the ability , with the Holy Spirit , to be hearing God for themselves . And then profits , genuine profits , come along and add layers of confirmation to what God is saying . Could you ?
Speaker 1speak a little bit more to that , maybe for those who you know , maybe haven't been around the prophetic or don't really know what that means . You know hearing from God , and then you know for me , for myself , you know I hear from him all the time . And then there are , you know , prophetic voices , prophets out there that , like you said , add layers , they add puzzle pieces . It's like this collective of the body that's coming together . Could you just go a little bit deeper on that for somebody who maybe doesn't even know what that means ? Yes , of course .
Speaker 2So I think one of the things that's very important to clarify , especially in the times that we're living in and with a lot of what's on social media and out there is there's a clear distinction between the Old Testament prophets and the New Testament New Covenant prophets . In the Old Testament , you know , the power of God would come upon the prophet and the prophets often spoke very sort of you know there was warnings and words of judgment and calling down fire and things like that , and they were used markedly . I mean , you look at Lucky Lager , for instance , and that's an Old Testament model of Old Testament prophets and Jeremiah Daniel , that kind of thing . So dreams , visions , warnings , guidance , but very different to the New Testament . We're in the New Testament , each believer provided you obviously are a spiritful , born-again believer who's received the Holy Spirit . We are all with the Holy Spirit in us , able to speak to God , to hear from God , because God wants to communicate with us , he desires to have an intimate relationship with us , and so really , we're all given the ability to be prophetic , as in hearing God , because even the Holy Spirit convicts us , guards us , leads us , and it really is . Nurturing that relationship will help you to be hearing God for yourself There'll be and it manifests in different ways . It'll be like an inner knowing , a stirring , you know , depending on how you're wired .
Speaker 2And then you get people that have got a prophetic gift and they're able to give you a prophetic word on occasion and that kind of thing and to operate in that space . And then you get people who are called as far-fought ministry prophets , but still in the New Testament context , that is to build up the body , so it's not to give words that are judging or it's all New Covenant . So really God has , through Jesus and through the cross , reconciled man to himself . So right now we're in the Grace Dispensation . So everything that God speaks to the body is all to cultivate reconciliation , to build , to edify , to exhort , to comfort . There are times where prophets have warnings and , for instance , there might be if you're placed in a specific church . God might give the prophet a warning , but then they'll be placed in that position to warn their leadership and to be able to discuss that A lot of the words that are in circulation at the moment are very apocalyptic and very sensationalized and what we need to know is that we're still in the Grace Dispensation , we're still in the church age Up until the end of the age . We know that the end is going to come when the last person , the last soul , is saved , because it says the gospel will reach the ends of the earth and then the end will come , and only at that point is Jesus actually going to judge the earth . So up until that point we are still in the Grace Dispensation and I don't use grace lightly .
Speaker 2I believe in being sanctified , I believe in walking out our salvation with reverence for God . So I don't use the word grace lightly . But unfortunately there are a lot of words that are talking about fire and earthquakes and the shaking , as in God , is sort of ferociously shaking the earth and judging the earth and that doesn't link back to the word , it doesn't marry up with the word or the character and nature of God . And I really believe one of the things that God is doing at this time is purifying the prophetic movements . And if we look at Jesus as the ultimate prophets which we ought to be doing because Jesus is the ultimate prophet Jesus only did and said what he heard his father say and do . So he really was lived in total submission and obedience to the father and he mimicked the father's heart in his ministry , and that's really what I believe we ought to be doing is revealing the father's heart to people so that people can come to Christ , because , at the end of the day , it is all about souls .
Speaker 1So , with what we're seeing right now , what do you sense is happening with some of these prophets ? Do you feel like they again had some kind of like ? Was there a shift ? Or I know you talked a little bit about this prophet , that you are part of that church Like it was a divination . Do you feel like that is kind of what we're seeing right now ? For those who don't know what divination is , could you share a little ? I go a little deep with this because I know some who are listening . I just I get these words and I feel like we have to kind of break it down a little bit for those who maybe haven't had this experience before , so that they can know what it is first of all , and then you know , just be really aware of it going forward .
Speaker 2So I think I'm going to just go to Matthew 7 , 22 to 23 . Because it's important that people understand . I want to reference the word here . And in Matthew 7 , 22 to 23 , jesus says many will come to me in that day and say Lord , lord , have we not prophesied in your name , cost our demons in your name and done many wonders in your name ? And then I will declare to them I never knew you , depart from me , you who practice lawlessness . So the reason I mentioned the scripture is because you get prophets that , quote the scriptures , use the name of Jesus , cost our demons , perform signs and wonders , can lay hands on you and heal you , but they're operating out of a different spirit and that spirit is divination if it comes to prophecy .
Speaker 2So it makes it very difficult , without having your own relationship with God and without having discernments , to differentiate between a false prophet and a real prophet of God . And the word goes on to say that in Matthew 7 , 15 , what we read is watch out for false prophets that come to you in sheep's clothing but inwardly they offer roshes , wolves . By the fruit you will recognize them . So you know , with social media , what makes it very challenging is it's very difficult to see the fruit because we're given a presentation and I'm not . I'm not discouraging social media and each person needs to have their own discernment and wisdom and follow whoever they feel in alignment with and that kind of thing .
Speaker 2I have written an article on testing prophecy , which may be quite helpful , but I won't go into all of that right now , the different things that you can apply . But you know , the thing is , if you're not watching someone's ministry or plugged in , or they're at your church or they're your mentor , it's very difficult to actually see the fruit , because you know , we know , that the fruit is the fruit of the Holy Spirit , so it's patience , goodness , kindness and ultimately it really is Christ's likeness . And if that person doesn't sound like Jesus , doesn't look like Jesus , jesus is the benchmark , he's the gold standard . And if you're not picking up Jesus , but you need to know Jesus in order to be able to discern what's counterfeit and what's real . So the challenge to each one of us , myself included , is to have your own relationship with God , to be so rooted and grounded in God that you're going to pick up what's real from what's counterfeit , because you know , and that that really is the essence of this , in this message , I would say , if I had to really unpack it .
Speaker 2And you know , christ , and when the church that we were attending closed and we're the long since left and a lot of people had left
behind , at a trail of disillusionment , distraction , confusion and the problem there is , people at idolized and become so dependent on the prophets that they were horrified when he fell and they many fell with him . And for that I say , you know , we can't be , we can't be making men and women and God's in our lives . We can't be doing that . You know , we've got to be on that unshakable foundation which is Jesus . Jesus is the rock and when things shake we don't fall away with , with the men and women who fall Right Away side .
Speaker 1Exactly . Oh yeah yeah , and I mean I just am imagining the flock that was following him . If they were just so . You know , the word that I'm hearing is like it's almost like an obsession . Yes , exactly , you know .
Speaker 1To elevate somebody like a rock star or yeah yeah , and I think you know when we were talking prior to us recording . I don't know about you , but anything that has hype attached to it is really distasteful to me right now . Could you maybe share a little bit more ? I don't know if you're gonna talk about that at all , but at least for me I just it's distasteful at this point and again , as we're growing and we're learning and sitting with him and discerning more in my own walk , like I've just started noticing that certain things don't come on the next leg of the journey . Does that make sense ?
Speaker 2I'm so glad you brought this up because I had , you know , really prayed about what to discuss and what points to sort of put out there as these red flags , so to speak , and I actually put one of the points as supernatural encounters . And I say this as somebody who absolutely lives for encounters with God and somebody who , you know , the presence of God is the oxygen that I breathe . That's right , man , but I believe that so much has been hyped and packaged in such an unhealthy way . And so , for instance , you know , if you're going to a church and it is led by either a teacher or a prophet or anybody really , and Jesus and the gospel and its transforming power is in front and center of the sermons that are being taught . There's a problem , you know , if this is being replaced with hype and self-promotion and an overemphasis on , in that case , demons . It was just demonology left , right and center there and supernatural encounters , and really is there . There is a problem . There needs to be a healthy balance of the word . The word is our plumb line and members being empowered and challenged to become Christlike Instead of teaching on .
Speaker 2You know , it's one series after another about sort of attaining money and wealth , and God wants us to live abundant lives . I'm not against , I'm not against abundance , but abundance is everything . It's not just finances , you know . Obviously , god wants to bless us so that we can be a blessing to others , but there's this sort of these levels that are being taught . You know , how can I get more money , how can I get more power , how can I be operating in supernatural realms and becoming like a God instead of an imitator of Christ ? And again , it's that fine line , because you can have a really powerful sermon that is very empowering and equipping . But what is at the heart of it ? So you know , and there's also , you know , at the end of the day , I just also feel like it's dangerous to cultivate a culture of Christians and spiritual seekers who are discontent with good , solid teaching from the Word and you only want the manifestations of the gifts but not the giver .
Speaker 2I had to sum it up , that's a whole word right there .
Speaker 1I think you've , you've , you've . You don't even need to share anymore . I'm just kidding , but that's so true . It's so true , there's , there's so many . I'll let you keep going , I'm sure .
Speaker 2So , yeah , I mean it really . I use the word balance a lot because I don't want to , you know , throw out really amazing experiences . But it's that balance , you know . It's the balance between having the foundation of the Word and then having the encounters with God , and unfortunately there's often an overemphasis on the encounters and the supernatural , because then you don't have to back it up with the Word and you keep the congregation ignorant . So we really need to be making the Word a priority in our own lives and our own walks with God , and then we're not going to be blindsided by these churches that are toxic .
Speaker 2You know , another thing that was very concerning in this particular church
was that at a stage we used to have communion once a month so it would be the first Sunday of the month and I remember , while I was praying and just saying , lord , you know , something's off , yet I don't understand what's going on this prophet started to say he didn't feel led . So on that particular first Sunday of the month he would just say I don't feel lead to do communion , and first time it happened was like , okay , it's a bit odd and I'm not getting religious about it . I mean , we take communion at home if we feel lead to , we break bread as a family . So I'm not getting , you know , super spiritual , religious about it , but Jesus is clear . He says you know , break bread together and do this in remembrance of me .
Speaker 2And there's something so sacred and beautiful about reflecting on what was done at the cross , reflecting on how Jesus died on the cross for us , how his body was broken and his blood was poured out for us . And you know , when we do that , together with the reverence of what was done , we just reminded of the price he paid and to be saying I don't feel lead , you know , to do this and it would carry on for months , and so that again became a major red flag and that might be quite a unique thing . But I would be cautious if there's anything that really takes away from the cross and what Jesus did on the cross in any kind of way , and then that again is like if there's this over emphasis on angels and portals and all of these things , but a move and a shift away from Jesus and what was done on the cross and the transforming power of the cross , you know , to me that's not something I'd want to personally be a part of .
Speaker 1Yeah , wow , Wow girl . I like you have a book here . Possibly you really do . Can you just remind me what was the name Like ? What did you entitle this in essence ?
Speaker 2Okay . So when I was thinking about it I thought all that glitters isn't God , you know , and also with a kind of a view in mind of counterfeit . You know , we look at sort of counterfeit things and we hear the expression all that glitters isn't gold . But I really thought all that glitters isn't God , you know , because it can often look really sparkly and really enticing and in fact it's just an angel of light , you know .
Speaker 1So what is ? Do you have any other red flags that you just heard along the way as well ? So many red flags , so many .
Speaker 2There's not much more to go and just transparency . So I remember at this time I was actually working volunteering with an organization that helped sexually assaulted children and part of this organization what they would do is they had it's really sad , they had rape kits , and so you would go to the site of where a child had been assaulted and inside you would have , for instance , change of underwear and food , wet wipes like hygienic things . It was very specific and this organization was doing incredible work . And I remember approaching the church and saying you know , doing a lot of drives with this organization and with the members , considered donating items Not money , items for these kids . And of course I was told to put a mail together and send it and if the profit feels led , then you know you may get the green light . And this was the one and only time I ever got a response , and the response not that I mailed often I mean there were maybe three occasions in three years but the response I got was that he didn't feel led . And so I thought if that doesn't move you to church , you know I'm going to get a little bit of tears , let alone to action . I don't know , because I mean I don't know anything more severe than that .
Speaker 2And so I started to ask questions about you know , is there any sort of outreach work ? Because I really do enjoy making a difference to the community . And you know , could I plug in ? Is there a soup kitchen , you know ? Is there anything we're doing for widows and orphans ? Anything ? And there was absolutely nothing . And so another , to me , an unhealthy , unhealthier , toxic church is one that is secretive about the finances and there's no accountability or the sort of payment scheme granting members who pay more access to the leaders . You know , and that's to me something to be mindful of . I really like to be plugged into a community where you can see that there's something happening , whether that looks like a soup kitchen , whether it looks like helping missionaries on the mission field , but there needs to be something going on , and certainly transparency around finances , because you know , why should that be hidden ? So that , of course , was another big red flag .
Speaker 1You know , I've never heard of like a payment system like that offers access in great ways . I've never heard of that before .
Speaker 2Very scary , and that's just sort of like teaching material the more you pay , the more access you get to teaching material , which I mean the word says freely . You have received enough , really good , so everything is counted to the word , but you've got to have the word in order to pick up on these things . You know , and that's why it's so important to be in a church and in a community where the word is shared with the members , so that they're empowered and equipped to pick up on things . But of course , these types of churches don't want you to be measuring and having a plumb line , because they're shifting you either to the left or to the right , whereas the word is like center plumb line .
Speaker 1Oh my gosh . And the fact that there was no leading to help with what you were involved in mind blowing Absolutely no leaning how disheartening . I can't even imagine what your response was when you opened that email .
Speaker 2Yeah , I mean , it just spoke volumes about the character of the person that we were submitted to , and I just thought I can't understand this . I'm just so grateful , though that God we were able to move , and although I was a little bit shell shocked initially , I plugged right back into a church . That was amazing . So it wasn't a case of coming away from that and going . I just I don't want to do church anymore . You know , I don't want to be part of community , and that can happen , and that's also a real danger .
Speaker 2So I think it's just important to we get discernment not to judge and we don't do the work of the accuser , but we get discernment to pray and discernment to lead us and to guide us . And that's important because otherwise we can end up in isolation and so jaded and so afraid of community , and I'm a big believer in community and I love church . Jesus loves his church . So , of course , we've had a radical example of what to avoid , but there's so many beautiful examples out there that might not be perfect , but they're a work in progress and , provided Christ is the cornerstone , he can work with the church and its imperfections .
Speaker 1Yeah Well , so I know you have some more red flags , but I want to hear about your current you know experience with church and what that looks like for you in this season and to give hope you know to others what that ? Might like .
Speaker 2Yes . So I think what the beautiful thing is . I look back in hindsight and you know , initially I had some regrets and some remorse about spending three years and you know in this , in this particular place . And then , when I started to really realize the call on my life more and more and the discernment that came with going through this experience , I've been so grateful to God because you really end up with a heightened awareness of anything that looks off , because you've been praying for three years and going Lord , speak to me , lord , show me .
Speaker 2I don't want to be outside of your world for my life . You know , I don't want to be somewhere that you haven't consented me and my family to be in . You know this place and show us your ways and it really does bring you to your knees because in your own flesh you might be attracted to the worship music you might find appeal in . You know the motivational speaking and things like that , but really it is to be praying about Lord . Where would you plant us so that we can be aligned , and alignment is critical . It's so important to be aligned in the place that where you planted , because that's a place you're going to be a blessing and you'll be blessed in return .
Speaker 2So , yeah , I mean to just answer . I think the last of the red flags really was . We get worn to look for the fruit and you know , part of the words are I think I've already touched on this is just consistency looking for the fruit of the fruit . You know those kinds of things is . You know the word tells us that will know , by the fruit , and I mean the fruit of this church , was that it closed , you know , ultimately it was brought to a halt , there was exposure and the doors were closed . It doesn't always happen that way , but in this case it did .
Speaker 1It really did so difficult for the people left behind , but yeah , so have you like , have you , stayed in touch with anybody that was part of that church ?
Speaker 2Only one person and she had also left and she'd also started to pray and got discernments and she left . You know the thing was so when you leave one of these churches that has sort of cult overtones or undertones , what often happens is there's almost like an explosion . So it's going to happen with churches . It's the most bizarre thing . I often think to myself . We're all going to be in heaven one day , you know , provided it's a Christian church . Like how , if you , if you are led by God to leave one church and let by God , I mean and you leave with one or an integrity and that kind of thing and you move on , you don't need to cut ties or stopping friends or stop talking . But when it comes to this kind of you know , cult thing , tell you , the Facebook friends left and I remember a small group really thought that you didn't understand that we'd left and nobody wanted to engage with us and we weren't , you know , slandering or speaking . We were actually . We've come to . We're just not those kinds of people . We were just very wary of what you know the place we were at and we came away and we entered into a different church and there was no real room for talk or for resignations or anything done in that kind of way , because the Prophet was totally untouchable , you couldn't get an appointment with them , it was just closed doors , you know . So , very , very different kind of setup , very celebrity like , and I know that there was no engagement . No , can we process what we thinking , feeling ? It was just , you just didn't even attempt . But the one friend from there , and then years later I came across people and and that obviously gone through the trauma of it and , as I say , you know , the problem was , of course , idolizing the Prophet in the first place , so that that left people with wounds and needing to actually reconcile that and go through a healing process where , as it was a lot easier because it was just a move of obedience was like Lord , this is wrong , but move us where it's right . And God was so amazing .
Speaker 2I remember being in church , the ones and I was worshiping , and he showed me was the most unusual thing , because it's not common . He showed me a church while I was in that old church with bright paintings on the walls , and so I reached out to my husband , nick's cousin , who lived in our area of Charmaine , and I said to show me . And I really , really feel like we're not in a good place here and I'd love to just visit your church . And she said , sure , come and visit . And I walked in and there were paintings all over the walls and I just felt the Holy Spirit and I felt such a piece and I went this is it , this is it .
Speaker 1You know , and that's where you're at , still Well we were living in in Durban at that stage .
Speaker 2We now live in Cape Town , south Africa , and we were at that church for maybe three or four years . It was beautiful , absolutely beautiful , just the most amazing , incredible . We're still very good friends with everybody there and we left with blessing . We were prayed you know , everyone prayed and laid hands on us when we moved to Cape Town and just one of the best times and seasons of church that we've ever had . It was so precious and so we've had some amazing church experiences and we don't hop around at all .
Speaker 2I mean we then moved to Cape Town and we were with another church for seven years and then the Lord started to speak to us about being stretched and growing and being equipped , and so we knew it was time after seven years and we had a beautiful conversation with our pastor and we just said you know , we've got a calling on our lives . I'm called to the prophetic , my husband is called to evangelism and there just wasn't any anything happening in terms of the prophetic at our church and that wasn't going to change . So we left with blessing and we're in an amazing , amazing church very solid , equipping , very sort of word , orientated and , yeah , solid , and that's really so . It's got a happy ending .
Speaker 1Look at such a beautiful journey and I agree with you , like a lot of times , you know , just even if we look at these last , you know , four years , just myself , even just the discernment that has been strengthened in being in environments that are so off , and yet , you know , some of us have a calling . I look back at a lot of things and I like to say it's not for , not in a UGHT , because there's so many opportunities to learn , like , what to do and what not to do in those types of environments . Right , especially these last four years for me . But it's been . You know , it's such a journey and we get to come alongside others and really be that encouragement . Like you , you're such an encourager and you're one who , like I , would love for you to just share a little bit more about , like , what
is he calling you into , just even in this current and upcoming season , with what you carry ? You know , the secret place ministry . What does that look like for you and your husband or family ? We'd love to hear more .
Speaker 1We can link that information in the show notes , as well as the article you'd mentioned about testing prophecy . Thank you so .
Speaker 2I just want to say , in terms of encourages , kristen , just hats off to you . I really , really love your ministry and you are such a solid encourager and such such an empowering woman and just being you so martyly of God . So I just want to thank you for everything you're doing as well and how you just raising up women to step into their destiny . So it's been amazing to just watch your journey as well . But the wonderful thing about what the Lord has been doing is I think it's been an exceptionally long time of preparation .
Speaker 2You know , as I say , I knew something was stirring , even as a little girl , and it's been a long , long , a long time of being that lump of clay on the pot as well , and I love it . I love that . I love being on the pot as well . I often hear about the wilderness . You know , it's one of those things that prophetic people talk about is the time in the wilderness , and it's often painted as something negative , because the wilderness is where you almost start in the desert or in the cave , and I love my cave , I love my time with God .
Speaker 1I'm not one of these people , you have a special cave A special cave .
Speaker 2You know , I just think it's been . It's been almost like a lifetime of of caving . And then God takes you through the time of preparation and he says , ok , right now it's time . You know it's time to step out of the cave , because you really can't be much of a prophet in a cave . I mean it's great having that one on one relationship , but you need to be out there ministering to people and you know you basically got to come out of the cave at some point .
Speaker 2But the reason for secret place ministry is really quite a beautiful and personal story . And I had started sharing . I was led to start sharing prophetic downloads and it's been quite a quite a long time sharing words and things like that . And there's been lots of opportunities with very organic prophetic ministry to people and it's just happened sort of one on one and things like that . And then I went through a time of being mentored and I've had the most incredible mentors . I was mentored initially by a really powerful lady in South Africa who's got a governmental and the governmental mandate and she prays and intercedes and is a prophet and a lot to do with sort of governments and just a real prayer warrior , and she took me under her wing for about a year and so I learned a lot about governmental prayer and sort of principalities and strongholds over nations and things like that , and that really shaped me in a major way . And then that sort of season of a lot of intercession and I would release words that I was hearing from God to her and then she would share them on her platform . And then I shifted out of intercession and was invited into a ministry group locally in Cape Town , which made a lot more sense in terms of physically being in the Cape and having that in person interaction . And I've walked a road with a beautiful couple who've been in ministry for 35 plus years very solid prophets here in the Cape , and they've taken me under their wing . But alongside of that , I was being released incrementally by the Lord to shape prophetic words and things like that .
Speaker 2And then in 2022 , in August , I was in worship at our church and I saw this vision of the storm clouds and there was these dark storm clouds and then I saw this tiny little gold door and I looked at this gold door in the storm clouds and I thought , lord , what am I seeing ? What are you showing me ? And I kind of like . I don't know how to explain it . I zoomed in and the door got bigger and bigger and bigger and the clouds got smaller and smaller . And this door had this beautiful , ornate sort of carving on it and it was beautiful and gold , like an arc shape . And then the door opened and I saw this bright light and I said you know , lord , what are you showing me ? And I saw it was an invitation to come into this door and I thought what is the storm , what is the door ?
Speaker 2And a day later my dad died . He had a heart attack . It was unexpected and my father and I were so close and I realized that the storm was actually going to be personal grief and that the door was this invitation to you know , to really press in at that time and to be healed by God and to enter into the secret place and to go through a time of restoring and things like that . And I tell you , god carried me through my grief . It was such an incredible time of closeness with him . I don't know how I could have done it without that and there were lots of beautiful times of visions and healing and restoration . But when I when I say secret place ministry . It's not just a , you know , a nice name , it's really holds so much meaning to me .
Speaker 1Yeah , it's not beautiful Just the and I really encourage you know if somebody has a new ministry or a business , to ask him , like what is the name , what is the focus , what is you know , rather than you know going to ask somebody else what it is . But this is your personal experience , absolutely In the name . Yeah , just our names mean something , right ? Yes , it's so personal . It's so personal . Like what does your name mean ? Do you know what your name means ?
Speaker 2Name means God's gift of grace . What is your name mean ?
Speaker 1Amen , follower of Christ , beautiful , beautiful .
Speaker 2Yeah , look at us . Look at us . That is so . It makes you have meaning so special .
Speaker 1Yeah , I love to ask you know the name , like what's the meaning behind your ministry name ? What's the name meaning of your business ? Because it is so personal , and especially when he assigns the name to it . So I love , I love everything that you've shared today . I know you know this isn't a message that everybody is willing to bring to the table , so I really appreciate your boldness and what I like to say for every podcast is that brave voices said others free . So , as you have released this word and your sound uniquely , that there is always one who needed to hear this right when they need to hear it Right . So I would just ask you , is there anything that you would just want to share with this one listener ? And if you could just pray over the broadcast , over the woman , over the whole audience , whatever you're led to pray today , that would just be absolutely amazing .
Speaker 2Thank you . First of all , thank you for this opportunity . It's just been so beautiful to connect with you and to share something that I've been carrying for so long . You know such an experience and to have the ability to share it here with you and with your listeners . And so let me just pray .
Speaker 2I just , first of all , I'd like to say , you know , lord , if there's anybody listening that has had a negative church experience , father , I just pray that they would look to you , jesus , as the cornerstone and have an understanding and an insight that it is you that builds your church and , as imperfect as man is , you are perfect , lord , and that we would put our trust and our faith and that you would be our foundation and that , although the world may shake , though people may fall , we wouldn't fall with them , because if you are the cornerstone and you are the rock upon which we build our lives and our faith , then we will become unshakable .
Speaker 2Father , I was to just pray that you would draw the listeners and for people , each individual person listening , into the secret place , that they would encounter you in greater measure , that they walk with you , just become so intimate and so so beautiful , lord , that they would hear you , that they would see you , that you would just release dreams and visions to them and that they would understand that you long and desire to have an intimate relationship with them and so that , when they do come across other prophetic voices that be able to have keen discernment , that they would know what is of you , what is not of you , father , that we would all just journey towards Christ's likeness , because that is really the gold standard .
Speaker 2Lord , we follow many people and are influenced by many people , but ultimately , our mandate is to become Christ's like . Father . Also , just for anybody who is listening that has a prophetic calling on their life , I just pray that you would raise them up to be these pure , beautiful , refined voices that you're releasing in this hour , voices that speak to your heart , voices that share your character , your nature , your truth , because , lord , in a world that is so full of darkness and deception , people are longing to hear clear and pure prophetic voices . So , father , raise them up , make them bold , make them courageous and , lord , we just long to hear those voices .
Speaker 1In Jesus name , yeah , you just released more voices there . I love it , great men . Well , thank you again for being on today . I so appreciate you , our friendship from across the miles , and I am going to close with the anchoring verse over this podcast . It's made the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace and believing , so that , by the power of the Holy Spirit , you may abound in hope , and that is Romans 1513 . So again , thank you , janine . I will be back with another episode next week and we'll talk soon . Bye , thank you .
Speaker 2Bye .