Welcome to the Hope Unlocked Podcast. I'm Kristen Kurtz, your host. I pray this episode is like a holy Ivy of hope for your soul. Please help me welcome Tom Anderson to the show. I'm so excited to have him here today. We've had such a great conversation post or pre-recording. I just believe that you're gonna hear so much goodness from him. And I know that he has quite a story to share and just the ways he's been led even to this place today for him to share. So, Tom, thank you so much for being here today. Before we get into your story, would you be open to sharing a little bit about yourself?
SPEAKER_02Uh sure. Thank you so much, Kristen. I I wanted to say first that I really, really appreciate that what you do and also the title of your podcast. You know, hope is such such an important part of people's lives. What hope really says is there's a dream within someone. And and uh when I I know I've read read your website that one of your favorite verses is the God of all hope.
SPEAKER_00Yes.
SPEAKER_02And so the God of all dreams. He's the one that plants dreams in us. And uh one of those dreams is just to be whole and and to be to know that we're in just just have intrinsic worth, to know that we're significant, to feel safe. But then there's also specificity in those dreams. And we've my wife and I have lived long enough not only to see that God has fulfilled those dreams, but also how he's done it. And and and so I think we're gonna have a great conversation, just examining not just my story, but just yeah, again, if if if God is a God of all hope, uh He's the one that uh has not only planted in our hearts, but he's also wants to bring those things out. And uh as as he told, as he told Adam to be fruitful, multiply, fill. You know, that you know, I I think the expansiveness of what God's put in us is in seed form. And so what how do we do that? Well, how do we hold on to that while life seems like it's imploding? So been married 53 years now.
SPEAKER_00Congratulations, that's amazing.
SPEAKER_02And uh, we we just talked even about two months ago how that our relationship went to another level. And uh we just again, we don't, you know, we we're just bumbling and walking through life, but uh there's a greater ease, greater joy. You know, we're still facing things that old people face, but but it's really been amazing to see the God who is relationship just really really take uh two bumbling kids when we were 19 and 21 and messed up and and how he really brought us to a place of wholeness, not only in a relationship, but also in our lives uh individually, because you can't really have a whole relationship unless you're whole.
SPEAKER_00Yes. Well, would you mind taking us back? I I don't know that I've asked anybody before to like kind of take us back. You've been married for a long time, and you're you must like you. I thought you got married when you were like 14, because you you don't look like you're if I'm doing my math right, are you 74?
SPEAKER_02Five this year.
SPEAKER_0075.
SPEAKER_02Wow. There's no break here yet. There's no break here. I I don't slobber, I don't have narcolepsy.
SPEAKER_03Okay, that's good.
SPEAKER_02I actually get up and down uh doing landscaping and I don't get dizzy. So God's really kind to both of us.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_02So I'm the the the the what I tell people, we we were married when we were 13, and she's my second cousin. Um but yeah. And she just rolls her eyes when she hears that. Yeah. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00So how did you guys meet?
SPEAKER_02So
uh it it's interesting. The one dream that I've had in my heart uh even from high school was to have the perfect marriage. And and I thought that I would all I have to do is get married because I'd be the perfect husband. And so anyway, during high school, I I I tried to go out, no one, no one bit. And then when I got into college, I began to date, but then I got hit with acne. I mean, it wasn't just pimples, it was my face was beat red, um, my back and my chest was beat red, and and and I was I I was a messed up kid, and it just drove me further into a shell. What I did really well during high school and college, and most of my even after I started walking with the Lord was to hide. And so anyway, so uh Nancy and I, uh Nancy was the first uh girl that actually took an interest in me. She was a uh junior in high school, and I was a I think a uh sophomore in college. Okay, and I was working at the hospital in the kitchen after hours to you know just clean, and and Nancy was working in the kitchen as a they called them candy stripers back then.
SPEAKER_00Oh yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_02And and so, and I I was told by some of the older ladies that she was interested in me, and so I had the courage to ask her out. So we had a about a two-year on and off relationship. And uh, I was, you know, again, I was looking for love and she was meeting that need. And then what one my senior year, she said that you know, she knew what she wanted to do, and it wasn't be with me. She wanted to go on to college and and become an interior decorator. And so we broke up until two months later she called me and told me she was pregnant. And and so for me, I was that was I was getting married, you know. So that my dream was my dream was being fulfilled, right? Yeah, yeah, and for Nancy, it it was anything but a dream. Um Nancy's maiden name is Trap, and she was absolutely trapped in life, and so but as uh but at that point within a month I saw the marriage wasn't gonna last. And and this is part of this, a big part of the story. You know, because one reason I I think this this desire for a perfect marriage was in my my heart was I did not see it in my parents. The dynamics in in in their relationship, my dad would my dad was really in didn't I perceived that he did he did not like me. I mean, he he loved my brother because my brother was cut out of the same cloth. Yeah, I was more uh in the background and quiet and and like I said, hid and my brother and my dad were more out there. They were they were salesmen and type of salesman that you go into a restaurant and they call you sweetie, and you know so so. Anyway, you know, the you know, but what what would happen in the home is my dad would make some sort of declaration, the kids would cause a commotion, my mom would tell everyone to shut up, my dad would go sulk. So so fast forward, uh, we're a month into our marriage, and I'd come home and say, Hey Nancy, let's go take a walk. She says, No, I'm not gonna walk. I said, Nancy, let's walk. No, I'm not walking. Nancy, we're walking, I'm not walking, and I go sulk. And I had a a Darth Vader, uh, Luke Skywalker dream scene experience where Darth uh Luke Luke kills Darth Vader in the dream, takes off his helmet and sees himself. And uh, if you would have told me up to that point that I was like my dad, I would have said no way. But at that moment, there was just an awareness that you know I was like my dad. And and and the dream that I had for this perfect marriage was absolutely being blown up, you know, because again, I thought all I needed to do was be married because I would be the perfect husband, because I'm kind, I'm I'm a yes person. And so that that was really so at that point I said, God, if you're real.
Now I grew up Lutheran, I went to Lutheran grade school, high school, college. So I I knew the Bible, I believed the Bible, I had a relationship with the Lord, I think, but you didn't never really know until you come to a place where you realize you don't know.
SPEAKER_03Wow.
SPEAKER_02And so I said, God, if you're real. And uh we actually had I had a friend that I took some tennis lessons from that was I knew he was a believer, and I knew that he was married, and I thought he had a good marriage. And so we called him up and we began a journey at that point. That was in the early 70s, when there was uh there was there's there's a move of God happening right now among young people, but but then there's a there's a m really a unique move of God. There's a charismatic thing happened in all these different denominations, and and and we we began to really commit ourselves to the church. Uh but I would come home and Nancy would be uh staring at a wall. She was, you know, she was clinically, I looking back, she's clinically depressed because her dream wasn't being fulfilled, you know.
SPEAKER_00Now was she pregnant at that point? Oh yeah. Okay, so she was she was pregnant and like staring at the wall.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, and even even after that, she was staring at the wall. Because I again she was trapped in life because again, she was married to a fella who really wasn't going anywhere. I was uh initially just working up with a college degree in a factory hauling magnets because I've I felt that that's what I can do. I I never pushed myself. In fact, I I have been pushed and I've been allowed myself to be pushed. And God has over the years, well, I've ended up I I've I've spoken to you know hundreds of people at a time, both in my career and also at church. But back then, in fact, the first time I was asked to teach Sunday school, I actually fainted.
SPEAKER_00Did you really?
SPEAKER_02I really did. Yeah, I really did.
SPEAKER_00I mean but when somebody asked you, you fainted.
SPEAKER_02No, no, no. When I was up there, I fainted.
SPEAKER_00Oh, okay. Not not just the asking. Because I think some people like when they get asked, they're like, Oh boy.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, well, I'm sure I I was an old boy or two, but but uh so for eight years we I I go to work at work and I end up in retail during that time. And and again, I was uh I I'm I'm pretty much an up person. I've always been more encouraged than discouraged. And Nancy during that time was definitely more discouraged and encouraged, and we we we went to church back then. It was church Wednesday night, Sunday, Sunday night prayer meeting, you know, and and but but again, what was really good some things that really held us together, you know, God for sure, our relationships. We we really had relationships and they they knew we were messed up. In fact, we had some friends recently tell us that they never thought we were gonna make it. But the the other thing, the other huge thing that really kept us together is we were poor, we didn't have options, and I think that sometimes uh is and ends up being an issue with marriages as they as they face each other and realize that it wasn't what they thought, which it's never what you think. Um, you know, that uh if you have options, you sometimes sometimes can jump out of a relationship when God's actually using that relationship. So, anyway, just coming back to uh the story. So for eight years, I would just come home, we'd be hanging hanging on by our fingernails, and Nancy would be staring at a wall, and I'd do what I could to uh serve her. And one Sunday we were sitting at the at the kitchen table, kids were taking a nap, we're playing some sort of card game,
I don't know what it was. And uh I was actually just feeling down that that day, and and Nancy was down, and uh and I said, Nancy, why don't we pray? And so I she flopped her hand over, and uh I don't know what I don't know just what I prayed, but I do know that and I've I've I've not had this experience since or even before, but just from my belly. This word came out, and it was out of Isaiah and Isaiah 43, I believe. It says, consider not the former things. It came out pretty forcefully. Consider not the former things, neither remember the things of old. For behold, I do a new thing. Now it shall spring forth, shall you not know it? I'll make a way in the wilderness and rivers in the desert. I said, Nancy, do you feel that? No. And for a whole month it got worse until Nancy one Sunday said, I'm done, I can't handle it. She went in the bedroom and came out changed. And we still don't know what happened, but it somehow God stepped in. So uh fast forward about three months. I I know I'm I'm talking here, but I'll I'll give a pause here. But it's really important because I I think you know, we we we go to places where we hear God speak something, and then nothing happens, or worse, the opposite happens. So, what the heck's going on? Well, a couple months later, we had a visiting speaker come through and he asked the congregation this question. He says, he said, What does God do when you have a need? And he wasn't talking about hungry, or he wasn't talking about, you know, the it's just an existential need. And uh we said, well, if he meets the need, he said, no, he doesn't. He sends a word and he tries the word and then he meets the need because he's more interested in building faith in your heart than meeting the need, even though he wants to meet the need. And so as we look back in that experience, God gave this this word, and and it it was it was a seed that was planted, it was it was the promise to be held on to, it was it was the it was the confirmation of the hope that was in my heart. But then what happens oftentimes is that you know it seems like nothing's happening or or worse, the opposite happens. So what's happening during that time, and I'm sure we'll talk about this in a moment, is the hope against hope stage. You know, we we we we believe something from God, and then we have to go through the hope stage where hope is actually released in us, and so really from that point we began to to change. You know, the the whatever is gripping Nancy was off there, she she didn't know she loved me. She was doing life because you know this is what she had. We had two kids, you know, and and uh I wasn't making much money even back then. And and so you so but God began to change both of us. And like I said, that was many years ago.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, like what 45 years ago-ish?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, about 45 years ago. Wow, and and and and she's she's one of the most joyful people I know. It it's it's remarkable, and so as I see as I see this this life, you know, that I've had the privilege to look back on, you know, God really does plant things in our heart, and and and then He we have to go through the wilderness. He makes a way in the wilderness. You know, we want to see God move, but we find ourselves in a place where we don't know how to get out. And that's that's the very place that God shows up. Yeah, we want to be refreshed, but we find ourselves in the desert, and but that's the very place that God's gonna meet us. And so just just holding on during that time. I I I usually when I'm talking to people, I'll I'll talk about these two realities. We have the reality of what God said, and and that not just a general word. I mean, we have to hold on to God's nature and character, but I think we also have to be attentive to his voice because he he he speaks to each one. And if we don't recognize that, you know, it's sort of like I think uh Samson just let no, it was Samuel didn't let any word drop. And but is because that's a very that that's the seed that's planted, that's the building blocks that God's using to really create something amazing in our life, yeah, and so just holding on to that reality as opposed to the reality that we live on is we all take a look at at our our our small space and wonder why. But we have to hold on to God, the God of all hope.
SPEAKER_00Yes. Yeah, it's that why question. Did you find yourself during that you know eight-year period, you know, asking God why?
SPEAKER_02I I'm pretty I I don't I don't know. I don't remember. I don't I we all we all do. You know, I you know I'm yeah, that that's so many, so many waves over the sand back. But I I I think the bigger question I've been thinking about lately and has been the what about me question.
You know, and I think I think I think that the question that undergirds all questions that we have is what about me? You know, and we try to answer that a lot of different ways. Anxiety is actually answering that question. I'm not safe. You know, uh depression answers that question, I'm not significant, you know, or or we go the other way and we try to really make things happen. We we have to we have to be important, and so we have to step on people, you know. So this what about me question, and we were talking about this prior to coming on. I don't think the church does a good job of really addressing that because a lot of times what I hear, well, it's not about you, it's about Jesus, and it absolutely is about Jesus, you know. But he doesn't say it's absolutely about him. I I think about Adam. The first thing he said to Adam was not, hey, it's about me, Adam. You you're here to serve me. Here's the 10 best rules to live by. Go out and and no, he said, Adam, be fruitful, yeah, multiply, fill. It's God's glory for us to be in the spotlight. And as long as we're not trying to be in the spotlight, yeah, you know, God wants us to shine. And and so the what about me question has to be answered in a way that that really is settled in our heart that I am loved, I am, I am significant, I am safe. And as those things are settled in our heart, then we can begin to you know navigate life and and and do do life without trying, it's not transactional anymore. It's just you just you just are, and in your being, you're you're actually fruitful.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Well, I love what you just said. I want to capture this too, because it's it's very simple. And when you get a hold of this, it's like you just are. You you you literally just are. Like you're operating, your operating system is operating in a way that it was created to operate. And I love how, you know, I've I've I found personally like it's come through the wilderness that this been has been discovered for me personally. But could you talk to us just a little bit more about you know, the the church maybe not helping, you know, the congregation or the believers to really step into who they were created to be? Because as both of us, we're we're discovering that we both have this common, like you gotta be before you do. Like you have to know who you I like to say, you gotta know who you be before you do. So could you talk to us a little bit more about that? Yeah. To some, it's foreign. It's like, well, I'm just doing. I'm just doing, I'm doing, doing, doing, doing, and doing. And then you run out of steam, and then you're like, who am I?
SPEAKER_02Well, that's a good it's a good thing though. I mean, we have to I'm gonna talk about uh Paul in a moment because Paul is really you know, he's the one that had this revelation, it's no longer I but Christ. Uh but he also had the revelation that I I know what I who I am, I know that I'm important in the scheme of things. You know, so so but I I think with the church, you know, the church is not good with both and the and we we rightly, we rightly exalt Jesus, but I think we we look at God in in in a way that it's I I call it the Allah version of the Christian God, where the we have this beneficent, kind, uh sovereign being that's on the throne. And and that is there, there's truth in that, but a greater truth is we have this relational God, the Father and the Son, who've always loved each other in the atmosphere of the spirit, and and they've included me in that relationship. So I I think what the where the church is really settled on is that we we see the love of God as transactional. That here's this broken person who who who who is is a sinner initially, and the second event is a sinner saved by grace, and he he's needy, and and God, because he loves, because his love is selfless, he's just gonna love you. But you know, that doesn't really say much about me. You know, but there is a truth in that. I'm not I'm not disparaging that, but but when when God has saved us, we we are no longer sinners saved by grace, we are sons and daughters of the Jesus type. And so so when we think about this, uh the love of God, not as this transactional, not as primarily transactional, but as relational. And as Paul said that that he has the faithful God, the one who's faithful, has called us into the fellowship of the Son. You know, so with whom has Jesus been fellowshipping with forever? And what does that fellowship look like? And so I I think about the first chapter of Ephesians where. He begins to just go off and say these things which no one believes about themselves, you know, and then he stops. He's like, I gotta stop. Uh you know, this is too much to take in. I'm speaking in a foreign language, so so you gotta pray that the eyes of their hearts be open that they might see again the hope of their calling. And so this word hope in in biblical terms is not I hope, it's the absolute assurance that what God has called us into, he's already brought us into. And and that's that's not only the being part, he's called us into a relationship, which I call sonship. And again, sonship is not a gender term. I there's a lot of Bibles that are now saying children instead of sons, but you have to define sonship uh through the life and in the person of Jesus, who is the son. And it has to be defined by uh a relationship with the father and a position of authority in the cosmos. And Jesus obviously is over everything where God's giving me these little pea patches or these little gardens to to manage, you know. So it it it's it's the same thing in in in in in smallness as he is in bigness. And as we begin to see that, our sense of self changes. And and we're no longer we're no longer this this person that God has affection toward, but he's actually brought us into his relationship. And and that's what's really changed in my life and my wife's life, and uh as I try to talk to people, and it it's so it is it is hard because it's not normative Christianity. Normative Christianity is uh behavior, it's morals, it's discipleship, and all those things without a doubt are important. And I I don't think we can get to the being place unless we are doing and come to the end of yourself. And so uh let me share the story of my story of uh uh of where I came to the end of myself. Yes, uh,
because again, I took I said before that my my my my mo is getting people to like me by being a servant, by being a yes person, okay, and and also just hiding, you know. Uh uh if I'm asked to do something, I'm uh involved in doing doing that. So even in my my career early on, you know, I I was a retail in retail and I'd love doing that because people came in with a question, they can answer the question, right? But so uh about uh 10 years into our marriage, let's see, 7, 3, 12 years. So I have a mass, I have a uh uh uh my bachelor's was in psychology, and I I thought maybe good good stepping off point for getting away from retail was maybe getting into counseling. So I went and got my master's in counseling. Unbeknownst to me at that point that I can make less money initially doing that than doing what I was doing.
SPEAKER_00And oh, really?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, and and I we had kids in high school, so but anyway, but what was really life-changing is uh when part of the program was I had to go through counseling. And and so I sat down with my professor, and he was an amazing man, and he would ask me a question, then he would do one of two things. He would either take his his uh uh face and put it on his chest with his eyes closed, looking down, or he'd actually roll his eyes in the back of his head where I just see the white of his eyes. Oh wow so he'd ask a question, I just stammer and stutter. And and I and this happened four or five times until I finally realized now now you might have seen that and said, Hey buddy, come off, then what are you doing? You know, but for me, I I stammered and stuttered, but I realized, and it was a moment of awareness, that I was getting I get my juice from people. So if you were engaged, if you were interested in what I was saying, boy, I was interested. If you weren't interested, I would shut down. Okay, and so and when I saw that, when I saw that, uh I didn't really try to change, but I began to change. And and like I said, I've yeah, I'm really in a place here where my I still like being in the background. You know, I I'm still I I'm still a servant, but it doesn't control me. I I I've confronted people. I was asked last year to speak in front of our church. We have two services, 500 people on identity. And you know, and so so I I know this this that God has has has changed me, and and yeah, so uh Can I ask a question really quick? Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_00Okay, so the counselor, did he do that on purpose?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, so interesting.
SPEAKER_00So to like kind of see what your reaction would be, or tell tell me more about that.
SPEAKER_02Well, I I I I I've had a chance to uh ask. I just have to know, I'm like, I'm really curious about that. But 20 years later, I I I saw him at a restaurant and I sat down, I said, John Dr. Harris, I have to ask you. Yeah, you know, you did this. He says, Yeah, that's what I do. He said, Because I'm not here to fix you. You know, you you're the one that does the work. And so uh he was becoming a blue, he was being a blank screen, uh and I was uh being projected on that blank screen. And that's how that's how I I how I interpreted, how I perceived it. Okay. And and so I what I saw of myself, I didn't it it wasn't good, you know. Because again, we we have this these false pictures of ourselves and and and how those how those are you know exploded. I I don't know what's right, what's the right word, how those are we we begin to see ourselves uh in a way that we didn't we thought we were okay and we realized we're not okay, and that happens a lot of different ways, but that was really a significant point in my life because from that point it began to change and yeah.
SPEAKER_00That's amazing. And it's interesting that you know you had to have a moment like that, you know, and it's like we we can look at moments like that in our life that seem it's like huh, that's very interesting, right?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, well, I think those moments are absolutely critical. I think what what I what I've come to realize is that one of the greatest gifts God can give anyone is self-awareness. And and you know, Nancy can say, Hey Tom, you're a jerk, you know, and I was like, no, not. But you know, if I see myself, if I have these moments where you know my jerkiness comes out, then and I think that's what so in in my book, I talk about Peter, you know what's the name of your book first? It's called From Sinnership to Sonship, the story of becoming really is the story of of how God transformed for first of all the the the the huge the huge dream God's put in us, but also about how how does God bring that into reality? How does God bring that to fruition? And and what one part of it is self-awareness. So Peter, uh the first time Jesus met Peter, it said that Jesus looked at him, and this word look in the Greek isn't just you know glancing, it he basically read Peter's mail. You know, he he saw the the best of Peter, he saw the worst of Peter, right? He saw all of that, and and he said to Peter, you're Simon, the son of John, but you're gonna be called Peter. And so what what he was doing was not this parlor trick, you know. I I know your address, right? We we know that that happens sometimes in in uh the in Christendom, but he said, No, you're Simon, you're just like your old man, you know, you're impetuous, you're a leader, but you're you're boastful, you're clueless, you shoot from the hip. You're just like your old man, but you're gonna be like me because Peter is petros, which is a small stone, where Jesus is a petra or the huge boulder. And so we see throughout the the gospels uh flashes of Peter, right? Flashes of brilliance, but most of the time we just see too much Simon. You know, we we see him correcting Jesus, we see him again just doing his own thing and and think but it's interesting too, uh, the the the elegance and the subversiveness of God. Uh, if I was Jesus, knowing Peter's issues, I would say, Peter, you're gonna be a leader, but right now you're gonna be cleaning the latrines, you know. But that's not what Jesus did, right? I know Jesus uses our own strengths against us, so he actually made him the leader. I think Peter would have been the leader anyway, but yeah, but so but then fast forward to the courtyard scene where it says Jesus looked at him again, and this is the same word. This is right after you know Peter said, I'll never deny you.
SPEAKER_03Right.
SPEAKER_02And he so again he had this false, false view of himself. And Jesus said, I don't I don't think you really see yourself quite rightly, but when you're converted, you know, when you're converted, when when when this had this moment happened, so it says that Jesus looked at him and said that Peter wept bitterly. There was a breaking in him, there's a moment of self-awareness that he didn't realize. And so, and again, I think just speaking to people out there, uh, there's there's moments where we we we realize that we're a fraud, and that's the best thing that can happen. For for Peter was probably the lowest point of his life, but Jesus said he's starting to get it. He's starting to get it because it's it is you know, it it is we we uh come into the Christian life. I'm sorry I'm talking a lot, but I'm just talking about No, this is wonderful.
SPEAKER_00I I I uh this is your your time to share.
SPEAKER_02We come into the Christian life, you know, with with the way with a sense of self that we we protect and we project. And the way we we do life before we become a Christian is the same way we do life after. We our personality, we're personality driven, whether it we're whether it's diminutive or or expansive, you know, we we have these natural gifts that are God given, but they're not broken. And so what happens is our personality, our giftings control us. And so God, with like with Peter, and I I've seen this in Paul's life too, he brings him to a place where he has to break those so that walking in the spirit is defined by not being controlled by your personality. So, you know, Peter, Peter and Paul both were hammers, right? Especially Paul was a hammer, everything was a nail to him, but at some point he was what he allowed himself to be hammered. And so there was a there was a transition, there's a moment of transition there where again he found the grace, grace of God. And anyway, yeah.
SPEAKER_00Wow. So you've you've talked a lot about Paul and Peter, and I'm curious, do you find aspects of yourself in either of them? Because I know I did, I it's interesting. I did a it was like a biblical disciple personality test. And guess who came up for me?
SPEAKER_02Mrs. Peter?
SPEAKER_00Mrs. Peter, yes. Yeah, how about you?
SPEAKER_02Well, no, no, I'm I'm an anti-Peter, I'm an anti-Paul. I I'm I I I definitely lead, but I'm a follower. Um yeah, and but but again, what what happens is my my personality controlled me. You know, I was a yes man. And so I again I did what I could to be liked, to to feel like people liked me. I did what I could to control my world, and I I did that by serving, you know, and and so it doesn't matter whether you're diminutive or you know, uh a type B or type A personality. There's so many different ways you can describe that. It doesn't matter, you know. Uh we uh those things control us until they don't. Yeah, and once they don't, then you you that then you can be. And then you then you begin to realize that what God's given. So you can move in. For example, I can go ahead and and I can be in the background, and I'd love being in the background, but if I need to step out on the stage, I'll step out on the stage. If I need to say something, I'll say something. Because it's it's no it's it's really I I guess that's no longer I, you know. I think Christ really is living in me. And and that's I'm saying that humbly. And and so uh uh right now I'm read writing through the book of Jude, and it's interesting. The whole book, the most of the book is about answering the what about me question because it says love called kept. That's who we
are, and that circles down to keep yourself in the love of God. But then once we know we're love, called and kept, once there's this sense, uh the settled sense of who we are, then we can think about others in a way that we're not it's not transactional. We're not getting some, we're trying to get something from them or not trying to put something in them. But it says there's three different things, you know, three different uh there's some people that just don't know what's going on, so we have to address them in a certain way. There's some people who who are teetering and we have to dress them in a different way. And there's some people who fall into the mud. We have to address them a different way. But if we again, if we just have one way of doing things, yeah, you know, then you know then we're not gonna be able to really be effective with the people in front of us.
SPEAKER_00So good. I love, you know, I haven't read Jude for a long time, but you said, can you say the three words again?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, so so so the Jude's really been opening up to me, and I'm but that'll be a book shortly. I've been putting that on Substack. Um but yeah, it says Jude starts by saying, You who are loved in God the Father, called and kept by Jesus Christ. So when you think of your three greatest soul needs, to know your own worth, intrinsic value without without having other people try to prop you up, even though it's good to be propped up, it's good to be told you're special, but to to know that we really are loved by God the Father. I mean, and this love is not this not this dispassionate love, it's it's an intense, it's a it's a stalking sort of love, it's a it's a psalm 139 sort of love that God can't get enough of me, sort of love. If we understand that, it doesn't make us proud, it really brings us uh to a humble energy. But also then then you have called, and called really speaks to our significance, and and that's another part of us that we really have to have settled in our heart that because uh I don't know about you, but my life is really a lot of mundane things, you know. I I help vacuum here, you know. You know, is that important? It's definitely important, yeah.
SPEAKER_00A lot of dishes, yeah, yeah, a lot of laundry.
SPEAKER_02And then kept really speaks to our our feeling safe, being safe. And so even Nancy and I, I mean, we you know, we uh had never made a lot of money, you know, as we look at our future, you know, are we gonna be safe? Yes, we are, because you know we're looking, you know, God's gonna take care of that. So that's how it starts. Then he says, then he says, contend for the faith. And what faith is it? It's this, it's this, is it's this knowing that we're loved, called, and kept is what we struggle with because we don't believe it. You know, life happens and we say, Oh no, you know, yeah, but but then at the end it says, now keep yourself, and he gives actually uh three different ways to do that. And after that, he says, now you can love people with God's sort of love. You know, God's love is not selfless because he does everything for his glory. His love is full of self-interest, and he's put us, he's given us, uh, he's put in with us also just self-interest, and as as we're just giving ourselves to really to to serve. I mean, that that's really in our that's really in our best interest as I'm here serving my wife, you know, that it's in my best interest, you know, and in in and obviously sometimes uh you know uh we're doing the best we can and things still implode. But at that point, you just have to rest on God's faithfulness, unless God's really spoken something. And I know with with us, he's really he really gave us a specific word. Uh in fact, he's given us an a couple of those, but yeah.
SPEAKER_00So can I ask you for those listening? You know, we're we're talking about hope, we're talking about being, you know, loved and called and kept. It's interesting. I guess I never knew. Kept was in Jude years ago. I used to ask the Lord for a word for each year. And in 2018, when I was going through like probably one of the most challenging years that I'd ever been through of what I called unwinding from grinding and just basically becoming, right? It's just learning how to walk again, a lot of transformation. He gave me the word kept. And I I'm gonna be honest with you, because years before before I I would choose words. It was like warrior and courageous and things that I was kind of like, you know, like you know, come on, girl, keep going, kind of words. And he gave me the word kept. And I honestly, this is I was like, God, that's really dumb. That's what I said. Like, I can't believe you'd give me that word because it was so different than years before that, right? And I guess I never knew, and you're you're just kind of awakening me today to the fact that that is in that sequential loved called kept. I'm gonna have to go in to Jude and read that. But for those who are listening in who maybe don't feel loved, called, and kept. I mean, I I talk to a lot of women in my journey, and I think you just even that word beloved, right? Be loved, be loved. What would you say to them that they they just can't grasp that? They can't grasp that they're called, they can't grasp that they're kept. How can they just even take some steps starting today as they're listening to this podcast to start leaning into that with the Lord?
SPEAKER_02Jesus, when he came, uh he said, repent and believe the gospel. And uh repent means change your thinking, right? But the gospel has to be more than God's pulled me out of hell. The gospel has to say that we are his beloved. Uh the gospel has to say that the dreams he's placed in our heart, God has is not only going to fulfill, but he already has fulfilled them. The the one word a couple of years ago that really dropped in my heart was when Jesus was on the cross, he said, it is finished. And that has been that has been really has changed my thinking, changed me because what God is so uh coming back to what you're saying, the gospel is that God loves you, you know, and we have to first hold on onto that in faith. That's why Paul uh Joe Juice can contend for this, because it's it's we have this internal tape recorder or digital recorder. We we have a default operating system that tells us that we're not. And so we have to say, you know, uh, we have to come come and repent. And again, I want to use that word in a softest of ways. We have to we have to say, you know, my thinking isn't right here, Lord. You say that I am your beloved in whom you're well pleased. Yeah, you know, again, reading Psalm 139, David's saying that God stalks him. God, you know, and so uh again, I don't can I can I say that I feel that? No, I don't feel that, but we're not called to feel, we're called to believe. And and so we're not called to feel, we're called to believe. And so so I know we talked beforehand about the seed, and this is a seed that God is seeking to plant. So when you think about the parable of the sower, which is in each of the three gospels, right? The parable of the sower is so important, and a lot of times we we look at that as deterministic. Um, oh, I'm this soil or that soil. But when you see it as the as the path to fruitfulness, the path of becoming, then the first soil is so important because we have these presumptions and these assumptions and these these preconceived notions about ourselves. And some of those are uh have been justified or have been solidified in life. You know, we we don't think we're worth much and people don't treat us right, right? Or or we've had uh we've had things that really harden the ground. But we have to we have to take time to say, guy, I want my my heart softened. I want to really receive this this gospel word that I am your beloved. I'm not just I'm just not just uh an object, but I'm but I'm a person you really love, you really imagined. And then that second soil is is the contending part where the sun comes out. In fact, in Mark, it says, when when trials come because of the word. And so we we we're gonna res we're gonna believe the word that God loves me, and and there's a moment in time when that that has to happen where we're gonna say, Lord, I'm I'm I'm accepting what you said as you said it. And then during this time when it doesn't seem like it it it really is true, we let our writs go down and we contend for that uh for that uh belief system that we are uh The the object of God's affection. And then the next soil is uh where we begin to start walking in that and there's going to be distractions. But again, as we address those three, and that's actually the story of Abraham, too. You know, we're going to be a place where we're fruitful and we're we're we're we know that we're loved and we're we can love people and not again not have this transactional view of life where I'm trying to get something out of people. So I'm loving my husband and he's not loving me, so you know, so anyway. Does that make sense?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, that's so good. I love you know, just just the picture again of the soil. I just picked up a bag of miracle grow today. And when I said that, was there anything that came to you miracle grow? I I I do feel like there's just so many miracles that he does. I mean, you look at it, just even a seed, look at the mustard seed, look at the acorn and how like the mustard seed is the smallest of the seeds. And I think it I don't know how big the mustard is the mustard's tree like 10, 20 feet tall.
SPEAKER_02No, it's a it's a big shrub, but but but it's a lot bigger. Well, I I I'd I just think about one kernel of corn. Uh one kernel of corn within two or three generations is over a million kernels of corn.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, isn't that wild?
SPEAKER_02You know, so when again, when God created Adam, and we have to read these, I I call Adam and Eve's story a meta story, because our lives fit into that story. And he he first thing that God did, and and I I know traditional Christianity is not going to like me for saying this, but I don't care. Okay. It said that he blessed Adam. And this word bless is barak. It's the exact same word that David used, I will bless the Lord. And it means to kneel down and and honor. And so uh so we we we will never say that God worships us, but guess what? God worships us, you know, because again, if you if you have this olive version of a Christian God where he's sitting on the throne and he he's he he only is one to be worshipped, then you'll never really see who God made you. So you know, there's a verse in Isaiah that says that my glory I will give to no other. And so that verse is used as you better stay in your place because God is God and you're not, and I'm not God, but I'm a son, right? I'm a daughter. Uh but Jesus said in his high priestly priestly prayer, he says, The glory that you give in me, give to them. And so we're not other. And so the first thing God did was he knelt down and he blessed Adam. He he and he breathed into his nostrils. And the first thing that that Adam saw when he opened his eyes was this amazing being who was actually centering all of his attention on Adam. And so, where does this this need to be the center of attention comes from? It comes from God, but he's the one who's going to fill that need. And when Adam fell, obviously, you know, he was disconnected from the source. And so he began to try to find his own center of attention fix. Uh, but then again, the next thing he did was he said, be fruitful, multiply, fill. And so he's saying, I like what I made and I want more of you. And so if Adam stayed connected with God, he would have he would have developed because he was made in his image, he was to grow into his likeness. And so Adam was put in a small garden where he was to learn how to grow into his likeness and become and to become like the person he loved. And so when Satan said you can be like, you know, if you take this, you could be like God, it was a lie because he was already in his image. Uh he was just learning how to become. And so, you know, so that I just having that mind shift, that mind shift is that, you know, because we put ourselves down, and so obviously some some people don't, and they need to have a Peter experience, but but most of us really live on the deficit side of life, and and we we don't believe, and I call I call it unbelieving believers. You know, we believe God, we want to serve God, but we don't believe who God says we are, and and and that's really the first uh first step of becoming who God's really imagined us to be.
SPEAKER_00That's so good. Can you imagine if our world was filled with people who knew who God said they were?
SPEAKER_02Well, it's interesting because in Romans 8 it says that the whole creation is groaning and waiting in expectation for the revelation of the sons of God. And you know, this this this uh understanding of who we are is what the world, what the universe is waiting for. And and I I really think when you think about what's happening, I mentioned this to you before we started recording that about 25% of my my invitations to be on podcasts come from non-Christian, definitely non-Christian people where I can share the love of God and the image of God and identity because the world, the world is aware. We think about self-identify is to be young people who self-identify. What is that? It's it's it's the cry of our heart. I think I think it really is the call of God to become really to become become more than we think we are. And and that's again, I think God has called us again. The hope of his calling, what is that? His calling is definitely greater than I can ever imagine. And and I I just want to give the rest of my life just saying, God, I'm here, you know. I I want to be, I want to be who you've made me to be.
SPEAKER_00Yes, I love it. And I love that, you know, one of my favorite, I guess you could say, like ages of people to see flourishing is like the 65 and above who are told in the world that it's time to retire. And I get to say, no, no, no, it's time to re-fire. So I love that you're like so. When did your first book launch?
SPEAKER_02Well, my first book launched about 10 years ago. I I I in this actually, this the first book really changed me.
Uh I was I was doing some counseling and had some time on my hands, and and I never understood the book of Ephesians. Not that I uh still do, but I understand it more. And I said, Well, I'm just gonna rewrite the book of Ephesians in my own language as Paul, right? And and it and the thing that really hit me, a number of things, but the the large thing was really coming to an understanding that God is a relationship. This this the father and the son and the atmosphere, the spirit having this delightful, playful, purposeful, engaging, uh I can't get enough of you relationship. And everything that he's done was to uh to include whether it's you see the atom or the solar system, whether you see the uh husband, wife, I mean, to reflect this delightful relationship where we come to be known and to know in relationship. And so when I began to see that, it just began to change me. So that that was about 10 years ago when uh Wiffensack published that. And then I thought I thought I was done writing, and I had a friend say that he was praying that I'd continue writing, and I said, I don't think so, because it it's it's a process, right? But I I had really what I had in my heart was the story of Abraham, which is a father of faith, which is a father of faith journey. And what I've seen with Abraham, it really is about identity because he began his life, he began his life as an unbelieving believer. You know, God appeared to him and he did things that we wish we would do. I mean, he left all you know, as best he could, he defeated armies, he built altars, you know, he just did these amazing things, but then Genesis 15, God appeared to him and said, Hey, hey, Abraham, I'm I'm your reward. He said, No, you're not because I'm not who you said I am. I'm not a father. And God said, Well, come with me, Abraham. Look at the stars. And it was the moment when the seed was planted, is that he believed God, and at this point he was accounted righteous. So I think about righteousness, the we have such a narrow, small uh definition of righteousness meaning right with God. That's not what happened here. He was already right with God, he wasn't right with himself, and so he believed that he was going to be, he was who God said he was. And that that was the face stage, faith stage where we start us, start out as unbelieving believers until there's a moment in time where we're brought out under the stars, and maybe someone here is brought out under the stars as we're talking. But then he went through another 13, 14 years where it wasn't happening. And and so God appeared to him again and said, you know, in in Genesis 17 or 19, where God encountered him again and say, It's not gonna be, it's not gonna be Ishmael. We're gonna bless your mess. You know, God never rebuked him for trying in his own strength to do what God would only do in his, but he said, It's gonna happen this way, and said at that point he hoped against hope. And I think about Paul in Romans 4, he was really Paul was really expressing his own heart, his own life. He interpreted what Abraham had to go through, through what he had to go through, hoping against hope that he might become. And so that's uh and that's where most of us are, and that's where uh such a precious time where we're we're struggling to be something we're not, and then we come to the end of ourself, and then God finally does it. Uh, but the high point of his life was not having Isaac. You know, you'd think that the point period we be put around Isaac's name, behind Isaac's name, you know, because here it was, you know, here's my baby. Yeah, but no, it happened on Moriah. And James says that this thing where he was accounted righteous was fulfilled on Moriah. So what happened on Moriah was God basically asked Abraham for all physical evidence of his fatherhood, of his personhood, to see, I do you really know who you are? And Abraham said, I know who I am. It doesn't matter whether I have a son or not a son, I know who I am. And right after that, God said, Now surely I'll bless you. You know who you are. Externals aren't going to affect you one way or the other. And and that's where God wants to bring all of us, where we're not affected by externals, whether someone likes us or doesn't like us, whether uh the the sun's shining or the sun is hidden, you know, we we're living from within, right? We're living from within, and we're we're we're being that person that God has created us to be, but we have to go through the process. And if we don't see the process, we're gonna misinterpret life. And and I I don't think, you know, uh I think the story of Abraham is there because God wants us to be unbelievably significant and and uh our are worth, and I believe for myself, you know, that my significance, my significance is as great as Abraham. Because I'm his son, I'm I'm Abraham's child. And and uh Paul Paul wrote writes in uh Galatians that the gospel was pre-preached to Abraham. And what was the gospel? In you shall all the nations of the earth be blessed. So who's living in me? It's it's Jesus, and so in me, through me, all the nations of the earth will be blessed. And we've seen that with our family. You know, God's really been uh we we were actually gonna have a great grandchild soon. And we see our our kids walking with the Lord, you know. I I know I'm planting seeds in people that I know are gonna come forth.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, it's such a beautiful walk, isn't it? Challenging at times, but um so beautiful, like going through that process. Gosh, well, this has been such a wonderful time together today. I would love again, could you just share the name of your book? Is it available like on Amazon and all the places?
SPEAKER_02So, really, if you go to
my website, tomanderson.in, I n for Indiana, Anderson's I I have my uh blog on there.
SPEAKER_03Okay.
SPEAKER_02The message I gave at Church on Identity, which is uh after the first two minutes, I you know, I I haven't spoken in front of people like that for a while. So, but it it's really good. It really it's who you are, is who you are. But uh, and then if they want to ask me questions or say, hey, you're stupid, I mean that they can do that too.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, so go to your website. I'll I'll be sure to put all of Tom's contact information in the show notes and a link to his book as well. Well, as we close today, I would love for you to share just if there's any other words of encouragement you'd like to share with the one who's listening in. You know, I do this for the one. And then would you pray us out today?
SPEAKER_02I sure would. So two things. First, I think we mentioned this already. I think that the best posture that you can have, whether you're an unbeliever or a believer, is God, I don't get it. God, open my heart. You know, that this, you know, what you're saying is so so not my language, you know. I I I need I need to have the I need to have you really show me. I think that and that's the prayer God is gonna answer, without a doubt. It might not be tomorrow, but you keep saying, God, I'm here, I'm before you, I need you. And the other thing is, it is finished. I I think the gospel is it is finished. God has already already wrapped up your life in a package with a nice big bow, and he's he's gonna be unwrapping that. But we have to, he, he looks at everything from the end, from the end, uh, you know, he sees the finished product and works from the to that point. And so just begin to see your life as you know, if there's conflict in your marriage, if there's there's things that are not going on to God, it's finished. Lord is finished, and I can rest in you.
SPEAKER_00So good. Thank you. Wow. Well, would you pray us out today? Yes, I would love to do that if you'd be open to that.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah. So, Lord, I just want to say that we're here. Not sure who's all listening, but God just want to say we're here. We just present ourselves before you and and just want to say, Lord, that we're all clueless, Lord. We we don't have a clue. And would you please open our hearts uh to see the good news, Lord, that uh you really do have your hand on us, you really do love us in a way that would make us blush if we if we saw it, Lord. And Father, would you really work that in the hearts of people that we begin to see this the relational God, not this moral God, not this a God who just sits on the throne. Lord, you'd rather get off the throne and wash our feet than sit on the throne, Lord. And so it's it's this God we come to and this God we call on. And Lord, in Jesus' name we're praying this. Amen.
SPEAKER_00Amen. Well, thank you so much, Tom, for coming on today. And thank you for being a brave voice who's setting many free. I will be back with another episode next week. Thanks, listeners.
unknownBye.