#186 DISCUSSÃO MUNDO: Jarkko Tuomisto – skill, groove, and the game

Welcome to Discussão, our monthly episode where we explore skill, learning, and human performance with leading voices from sport, science, and beyond.

In this episode, we are joined by Jarkko Tuomisto, a top goalkeeper coach whose journey from Finland has taken him across continents, leagues, and football cultures, from Aspire Academy and Ajax Amsterdam to Independiente del Valle and İstanbul Başakşehir.

Together, we explore Jarkko’s inspiring path to the international game, and how different football environments have shaped his understanding of skill and coaching.

The conversation moves into the world of goalkeeping: how situations are constantly changing, how different contexts create different action possibilities, and why skill in goalkeeping cannot be reduced to technique alone.

We also discuss representativeness and variability in training, the goalkeeper’s role in build up, and what skilful coaching really means in a complex, ever-changing environment.

Along the way, we step outside football and into music. Through rhythm, groove, and the idea that skill lives in interaction rather than isolated technique, music offers a powerful lens for understanding learning and performance.

At the heart of the episode is a simple but powerful idea: skill is not about technique in isolation, but about interacting with the environment.

A rich conversation on coaching, music, perception, adaptation, and the lifelong pursuit of becoming more skilful.

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Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Fruit and stuff is a fourth class for us. The other celebrator is the use of the line. Talk about the themes of our food. Fruit style. How we have displayed football. We explore the beautiful games, the complex relationships between humans and their environment, and the nature of skill in football. Welcome to debate. Today we are delighted to be joined by a top goalkeeper coach whose journey has taken him across continents, leagues, and football cultures. From Aspar Academy to Ajax Amsterdam from Independente del Valle to Istanbul Pashakšehir, he has worked in some of the most demanding and diverse high-performance environments in the game. We warmly welcome Jarko Tuomisto. Jarko, perhaps the best place to start is with your own journey from Finland to the international game. Because this is a very inspiring story for everyone striving toward progression. So, Jarko, how did you go from Finland to international stages?

SPEAKER_02 1:10

To put it shortly, it's like I coached and played football in every level in Finland more or less. Didn't play the highest level but all the other levels, yeah. And uh I was always striving to find my way, and that there has to be another way that what we were doing in Finland. We didn't do worse or better than the others, but for surely not better. So I was looking for the different ways. And as a player, I realized quite soon that I was not gonna make it to the top level. So I was thinking that okay, coaching is is my stuff, is the next best thing. When I when it's between the rock star or the professional football person, it's like had to make a choice one moment, and I realized that neither the music was the one for me. So so I I went to football and coaching, and when it's started to be clear that the Finland we had there was one kind of way or no way, particular way of coaching at that time. I was looking for the other one, and I I started to look for information somewhere 20 years ago, and uh I dedicated every day, like uh some first was like okay, every day, one hour to to look for information from all around the world, but YouTube was totally different that time, I can tell you. So I I just found out that Italy was uh doing something interesting, and that was already like they had done it uh 20 years that time already. So, but that was for me different. They were like jumping over the ropes, going under, doing all this acrobatic kind of stuff, and and I I had one coach already when I was 12 in Turku, Finland, that had visited Italy and was like praising it at how they did the the guy jumped from the trampoline, one one backflip, and then they shot the ball to the and it was like a whoa, I was a 12-year-old, it was like this was different, and we already trained that way then in 80s somewhere. So it was like totally different what the other guys were doing, and he got a lot of uh crap for that, and they people were laughing at this guy, but still he's my hero and uh and kind of mentor, one guy 160, and uh two two lobes in his life, uh Chevy Astrovan and football goalkeeping coaching. So it started from there, like like from seeking the information.

SPEAKER_01 3:24

But then you eventually you went actually to Italy to coach. How did that happen?

SPEAKER_02 3:29

Learning that okay, Italy they have these kind of interesting things. I wanted to I wanted to just get there and uh and uh one guy we know that uh I was asking so how the hell you can go there? Like what what's the pathway? Just say that you just need to go there. Okay, I was thinking, okay, if I go there, what do I need to physically? I need to travel there, I need to have someone there, the one person, I need to well know where this person is working, how is it working, and so on. So I started to just look for the and and okay, I want to go to Italy. I want to go to the professional club. If I call Juventus, do they even respond to me? No. I was clarified for myself which kind of scale of uh clubs I I could be able to go, and I put all those clubs in the paper from A to B, uh Ascoli, uh, Bari B, Cittadella, C. Like I started to call them by order. Like after seven, I was already went, I was asked already two times money to come. I understood that I have to find another way. So I found one book from the online, and there was just a telephone number of the goalkeeper coaches union president, because he was the writer of the book, and I I called the guy. Surely didn't speak English, but gave the phone to to his wife. And and and she was the translator between us two, and and she and he said that okay, send me an email and put everything that you what you want, and and and I will respond to you. So it started like this, and then I went to his preseason camp with the Piacenza Primavera under 19 under 19 team. And uh I was there two weeks, I filmed everything, I paid, of course, everything myself. And it started from there, and from there I went to one congress in Italy, and after I had the chance seven years later, seven years later, to go to Serie D. And during these seven years I visited Italy every year, and I visited lots of places: Germany, uh, Holland, England, uh, went to Courses in Scotland, went to Corse's in every every everywhere, everywhere visiting Spain, Portugal during this time before entering the first time in Italy in Serie D 2014. And after from there it started rolling. The network already was was created, and and after it's easier. But then it was at least I got one chance after another and and from there it went on.

SPEAKER_01 6:03

Jarko, this is super inspiring for young aspiring coaches who want to go and want to do something. So you have to work a lot and then eventually some good things start to happen. So after Italy, you went to Aspire Academy, Independente, Ajax Amsterdam, Nice, so many different clubs, and now you're working in Istanbul-Basakse here. You are known about skillfulness. Skillfulness in coaching and goalkeeping, you talk about that a lot. Skill, what does it mean to you? How do you define skill or think about it?

SPEAKER_02 6:35

We consist of like when we are attached to this university and this life here and in this sport and in the situations of the sport where we are. We we can either adapt to it or we can decide before that no, this is what I'm gonna do no matter what. And I I think it's it it always grew because I started from the one that okay, you need to decide what you do, and you do this, this, this, this, and you have you are done. You did your training, that was the training, and very good, very well planned, thank you, Jarko. And uh that was good. But after I started to realize that that uh if I did this one, the goalkeeper did something different. If I did that one, the goalkeeper started to do something else. And I realized that damn it, maybe there is more to it. And and and by observing this kind of behavior of the keepers, I started to realize that okay, actually that what I do gives one impact on the on the other one, and what he does changes me also as an actor in this situation. So this was this was really clear. And and also when when we were taught like the goalkeeping movements, let's say, like so-called techniques, that they are so rigid and and so that the teaching and pedagogy was and methodologies were so reduced to the to be able to execute it, you need to reduce everything, the weather, the pitch, the movement, uh even even the opponent sometimes. And and it so that didn't make any sense. And and when I've been lucky to spend my life with a professional contemporary dancer, and when I was observing the dancers, how they do their movements and the movement economy and and and the ecology of it, and it's it was totally game-changer. Like it, oh, you can do that, you can really do that. And it's like it's it's not that it's something flashy, it's just flowing, free flowing, and always with purpose, with the purpose of the goal and aktivity, and and the adaptation of everything uh situation, and not by practicing them as techniques but as action in the context.

SPEAKER_01 8:48

So, how do you then see? We have different ideas of human cognition and skillfulness. We have this maybe a little bit traditional view where we think that the brain is leading everything that you do, and kind of the information that you get from outside of you is poor, and then the brain enriches it and then analyzes it and then makes the decision how to move and then press enter and we move. Do you see it like this?

SPEAKER_02 9:13

How I see it, and how how when I I speak with the players about this, I don't use like, okay, what do you think about ecological dynamics? No, I I ask how you see the situation, how you see it unfold. They say that I felt it going this way, I felt it going that way. I I felt that I have to do this one. I and uh and it's like when when it's on the expert level, it's it's like people cannot always like and even put it in the words. Like uh I was watching actually this morning, I was watching one video in YouTube. I have to shout out to Rick Beatto that makes a great uh interviews of the top musicians in the in the world. And there was a flea from Red Hot Chili Peppers, and he he did the trumpet record and let's go to the world of jazz. And he was like, since I was doing the first uh demo track with uh Chili Peppers, I never had that I felt like I was floating. And he was like floating, it's the feeling when everything was on point, like everything around him and his he's playing and everything. So it's like uh when you're in the zone or when you are you can you can describe it in many ways, but but it's definitely something else than reducing every action to the milliseconds or the angles of the of the knee or or the ankle or so it's more uh complex than than that.

SPEAKER_01 10:36

How did the artists spoke about kind of the music that they played? Was it predictable or was it something that kind of evolving in the moment?

SPEAKER_02 10:45

This actual actual thing when I was watching, and this was like a free-flowing like a jazz record what he was doing. There are like rules also in music. There are like. So the music is exactly and and this kind of every activity where it's a human connection has this element in it. And it's the key element that there are like movements in the of course the player level, but also the local coordination with the people around it. For example, in this one, they were like he said that there are rules in music, but when you master, you are like you have a lot of knowledge about like music or rhythms and and core changes and these kind of things. You can then you can break the rules. When you when you know when you understand the football, when you have internalized this music, he said that not that you memorized, but you internalized things. You can do different things, and this is like the highest expert level, I guess, in that field of work.

SPEAKER_00 12:15

I think that applies to a lot of fields that first you are given like some kind of rules of thumb, but when you become the expert, then in a way there is no rules. You just play the game or play the music or whatever you do.

SPEAKER_02 12:31

It's like if if if Beckham just would have learned better the technique of crossing the ball like the proper way, maybe he would have been better, or the career would have been better. No, yeah, but this is exactly the cheap joking.

SPEAKER_01 12:52

skill in ecological dynamics is thought to happen in the human environment system. The environment is changing, humans are changing, so the connection between us and the environment is always in change. If you think about skillful goalkeeping, we have different kinds of goalkeepers, different kinds of situations. So, is there a kind of best way to defend a certain kind of situations for all the keepers?

SPEAKER_02 13:19

There are certain rules like the goal is a little less than 7.5 meters and the height is uh 2.45. So this is this doesn't change, but the distance of the ball, the the running direction of the opponent, the the angle of the shot and the angle of the opponent changes. So the basic basic things that are are not changeable, you need to just play with. So the goal is quite big. And if you are a small keeper or a tall keeper, it can change you something. But you can be fast and and and little, but you can be also big and slow, so that that will change you and your approach. But some some things are like like a rule of thumbs are like okay, if the ball is like a bit farther, like let's say, out of the like the semicircle of the box, like maybe it's 20, 40 meters out. If a small keeper comes very far from the goal, you are easily, not easily, but you are it's possible that you're being lobbed, like the they chip the ball over you. If you are courtois or or one guy that is really tall and explosive, you can play with this one. But also the the more expert level keeper, you can play with also with the running speed if the guy is coming really direct at you, so it's different difficult to put the ball around you, for example, and he has pressure and and he's he doesn't have even time to check you up because the best players can can just from the corner of the eye they they gather the key information and and they they are able to use the positioning of the goalkeeper at their advantage, also. So so these small things that normal keeper like uh what they are telling that okay, ball is out of the box, stay closer to the line. And and if it comes inside the box, you should you can consider going out. And this is like a rule of thumb. And after it comes more uh rich because the the guys who have uh experienced like uh 15 years of professional football and are good on the line, for example, they know what they can do, they feel it every situation that okay, I should go out, but I think I I should not. It's like it and it they don't have it in the head like this or something like this. They they feel it that they are just staying there, and afterward, when you look, when when you look at the video with those guys, it's like okay, yeah, yeah, I had something was wrong. But I I think because this guy was there, I I had the bad feeling to go out. So I stayed here and that's why I saved it because I I was able to. But this is kind of experience related and the the expertise type because they can they can see more information because the young keeper only sees the ball is far, the ball is close. But this guy can see that okay, he's running with a big speed towards me, and he will shoot with next touch so he can come out of the line because he he knows that I come here and this will probably happen. But the other thing is that's just uh generally speaking, for example, if the ball is in in the diagonal angles, let's say, like uh 45 degrees, sometimes entering the from the corner of the box or or a little bit even more on the side of the end line or the touchline. This happens a lot. And I can I put a side note, I put a side note. Fuck, it's I I put it at the guest here. So there are a lot of keepers who want to make like big saves, and the goalkeeper coaches like to make the top corner saves, the top corner saves, because that's one you can put on YouTube or you can put your TikTok or some other applications that I don't have. But there's a lot of statistics in football since a long time. And and I don't know if it's getting bigger or smaller the amount, but like in the South African World Cup, it was already 3% of the other shots were these kind of balls that goes to the really in the corner corner. So it it actions, all the actions of the keeper. So and this was I think the reason of Michael Rechner now, the the Bayern Munich coach, goalkeeper coach. So this amount is so so tiny, but the the emphasis seems to be so big. And for example, the goal defending situations, what what we face when when the back four, or if some people play even back five because in the low block, it forces all the actions. Either you need to shoot very far from the box, and and this is not easily done, for example, go keeper training. Uh, but the other option is that you need to penetrate the box like from the side, more or less. So the shots are from the smaller angles, and now you can, if you know that your team is facing more or less these kind of situations, you need to manage the keeper in the diagonal angles, and the diagonal angles are, of course, that you need to choose that okay. The basic rule of thumb is that you don't leave the first post level. But there are keepers, for example, I worked with Bulka in in Nice, and and and he's 199, so almost two meters, and he's quite fast. So if he takes one step forward, he will cover everything in the goal. Even the sun goes out because it's so big. There is no actual space, and and he did a lot of saves with this one. He he it was impossible to score against this almost. Like if you arrive at the box in this angle with the pressure, and you shoot from there, it's like like you with the foot you already save from the low corners, and uh with the hand, it's like a top corners. It doesn't matter how how hard you shoot. And and we train this one a lot. And for example, here we have uh Mohamed Sengezer, who is who's a really good goalkeeper and was the part of the Turkey goalkeeper group in the in the now that the that went to World Cup. We train a lot of this because he's the he's another way, he's not like he's explosive, but he's he looks even phlegmatic. But he's really like fish in the in the river, just swimming there as is and and it doesn't matter how you shoot, it's like he just moves his body, he can use his arm hand, he doesn't worry about that that I need to catch every ball. He's just with the shoulder, he can deflect the ball with the shoulder, with the palm of the hand, or or just with the with the knee. So it's it's also in this season, it's almost unpenetrable from this kind of angle. So it's it's two types of different keepers. And this is also that you you you play with the. He's really in the zone that he just you can shoot whatever and he will he will react to it and and with his relaxed uh pace of uh I don't know. Activity is able to just get to the ball. Some guys are like puffing and huffing and trying to be explosive. And then this guy is just boom. It's like uh I don't know how to call it even.

SPEAKER_00 20:22

But this is very interesting that how two goalkeepers can have different solutions in the same kind of problem or same kind of situation. And how you how you manage that in uh training context also? How you coach the goalkeepers with different movement solutions?

SPEAKER_02 20:42

How we do it is just because this is one concept that they are like you need to improve the things that there is a room of for improvement, of course. But this one is something that are two guys they their strength also, one of them is this one. So you need to just arrive to this kind of area of uh I don't know, activity or or shots uh in in a different way from the because you can arrive there from the cutback, you can arrive there from driving the ball, you can arrive after the through pass or this after combination. So you just need to it's you cannot just put balls on the line, like maybe sometimes you can, but uh but just repeat these situations without repeating the actual actual ball. That's not them same balls and then move ball seven centimeters and then again turn. No, it's just all the time some more variability with everything, with the ball speed, with the that's sometimes just a touch to activate it, that you don't always wait for the shot, or you need to sometimes go out because the striker takes one more step touch and or or after there is a sudden pass somewhere, or or you know the the situation that you are you are all the time in tune with the situation.

SPEAKER_01 21:55

So when we think about representative training environments and uh it's different. Situations and different goalkeepers. Can you please even go deeper with your coaching? How do you act in the in this environment?

SPEAKER_02 22:10

I strongly believe in the always preparation. Like in the situation, like if you are receiving the ball, you should be trying to understand the key information if the opposite side is free or if the is the same side that you need to play the ball to. Or if you are facing one shot that you are not moving in any kind of lateral direction, that you are set and you have time to make your activation small activate pre-activation jump and time it perfectly optimally in that situation. So after that one, I try to force them to move from some natural way with some movement skill technique after the turning or movement or small movement or big movement. And because the everything starts with a something that you need to recognize something and then you need to act, and then you need to probably stop and then you need to execute your your what you need to do. Go out, dive. So if you if you prepare it well, you already did a big part of the job. And after so I force them to do this one. But after, for example, if I need to do this diagonal ball, I try to observe if if they are a little bit too upright or they are staying too low. So if they're staying too low, I try to I can tell him uh try to stay a little bit higher or try to. But verbalizing something with adults can work. But normally if I shoot five balls up, I asked you what do you think why I shot uh five balls up and I scored three times. Maybe it was too low. Maybe I I he dragged the hands too low. Because sometimes they have some techniques that are like postures that are not like they are for sure taught, but uh but not maybe functional sometimes. So I I I try to give the exercise who tell the but the of course sometimes you need to uh watch the video, or sometimes you need to just tell them that hey, try to stop before otherwise I score all the time, or or you look you you are not balanced. And when you are then I you can you can use praising and hey, when you are balanced like that, you see that how good saves you can make, and and or you but you need to work with the human level, but also just uh tell sometimes tell them, but sometimes they'll let the exercise to tell them if you have planned it well.

SPEAKER_00 24:34

How do you see goalkeeper coach finishing or the goalkeepers finishing versus strikers wingers finishing in the practice?

SPEAKER_02 24:45

If there is a goalkeeper or goalkeeper coach finishing, I think this is called warm-up. And the actual training is when the when you have the real speed, angles, power of the shot, the accuracy of the shot. And uh if I'm an old school goalkeeper coach from somewhere Yeah, but when they go with the shooting exercise, that's easy. But it's of course it should be opposite.

SPEAKER_01 25:09

When you describe this kind of uh situation where are you where you are coaching the goalkeeper, it seems that you are very much inside that situation. You are not outside but inside, and you're observing what the goalkeeper is doing and how you how you can manage this situation. Ah, how I can manage.

SPEAKER_02 25:25

Well, I'm lucky because I have an assistant, so it sometimes is you share the things that okay, I want to observe exactly this thing, so I let the other guy do it, or or sometimes goalkeeper can do it. But also, you don't need to see everything all the time. To be able to comment it and and you can also ask questions. Okay, of course, when when we want to have some sort of intensity, and like this, is of course you cannot stop every time to do it. But to to to observe it, and of course, you need to video everything to analyze it after, also.

SPEAKER_01 26:06

You already touched this uh topic of build-up a little bit. Uh, how do you see build-up in your idea of football?

SPEAKER_02 26:14

Nowadays that the teams teams come more and more pressing either man-to-man, like uh high pressure all the time on the pitch, or they they pull back and wait in the low block. It's it's evident that that the goalkeeper is is an integral part of it because it's normally the only free player on the on the pitch. So this is something that I I have always emphasized, and I I think I understood at one moment that actually people are not doing it. I mean, there are goalkeeper coaches who like more the goal-defending actions or doing crosses and one against one and these kind of things, but I also somehow realized that not many people are doing it in the in the in the same level that they do their goal-defending exercises. But they. The build-up is only like the. But it's it's like more uh now they already speak about the like construzione, like construction, like building something. So it also has changed there. But uh how I see it, I see it important. I made a big amount of my career. Understanding the importance of that one, but also going quite deep in it, and also asking quite a lot from the keepers if if there is one environment that allows it. Of course, head coach will always decide that how he wants to build up is is how you need to do it. And uh if if it's allowed, it's it's allowed, and I I go went all in and just go all the way to achieve that goal. That if this is a free player over there, doesn't matter if it's behind the back of the opponent, you just need to find a way to get the ball there. So that's how you need to practice it. But you first you need to accept it, then you need to understand what are the elements in in this kind of situations, and then you just need to do it in everybody different way. Someone doesn't have at all the left foot, so you can improve the left foot, but mean in the meantime, he needs to also have some other means of uh delivering the ball there where it's needed to be delivered. And of course, in a youth football they allow more mistakes than than maybe professional games. But also, in the other hand, same time speaking, the the players in the professional level normally they have these kind of abilities, but also the fear of uh failure is can be bigger in the in the and the the because of the press, the internet, the fans in the stadium, the million of guys who will give you hard time if you do something something wrong.

SPEAKER_01 29:09

Yeah. So related to build-up, uh, what kind of concept ideas you are working with with your goalkeepers and other build-up players, of course?

SPEAKER_02 29:19

There are like uh let's say tactical concepts of the coming from the team uh strategy, or or okay, this player will move there, and this player will move there, and how we need to adapt us ourselves uh in this situation, like okay, we will start with the setbacks low or the fullback's low. What do you what are your options? Okay, in this situation you play for the striker, or you play in combination with the other guys. And when we when when the football is going more like a relationalist way, like they are like the positions maybe I don't say lose their meaning, but they they they change a little bit. They can be crowded areas on the pitch for creating overloads or or or or this kind of thing. So there I I focus a lot on behaviors in different situations, how you kind of attract the opponent to do something in our favor or to be taken advantage of. How the body shape is with the body shape, how you can maybe move the running line of the striker coming to press you, or if you face him, what is what can probably happen, like if you if I face Jeep like directly. Normally, what if he was running, normally he stops, or normally or he he he comes his move his direction to be directly at me. And if I play behind him, next time he will do something different normally. Because he's also adapting, so but this this is the way how you can impact on the on this particular particular situation because normally there is never like a one against one or two against one, there is more people around. But finally what what the guy with the ball needs to do in this moment needs to do is normally play the ball somewhere nearby or or far. Depending on how the tactica of the team is asking him to do. But it it in the in the moment that you need to take a decision, you then don't take between seven, but that you you try to you try to have the situation that you have like uh one or two.

SPEAKER_00 31:31

This also is an interesting topic because when the more zonal defenders or more zonal defenses were more prominent, it was like how coaches try to fix or find the solution is true structure. So we move this one player to the first line so we get plus one against the first line of pressure. But now maybe there is there is no structure because of the man marking, for example. So you have to focus more on behavior and how we can how we can solve the situations with better behavior, being better at playing football.

SPEAKER_02 32:06

And to be honest, uh there are there are many situations in in in also here, but also before. Uh when you when you have really I don't say even really good players, but of course, I've been happy to and privileged to be able to work with some of the really really good players. And in especially in this, in this sense. And when you you put okay, you have kind of structure, even if it's like there's a rotations and this kind of thing. Maybe you want to break down the structure a little bit to break disorganise the opponent. And how how the good players they there are emergent options that are arising from the situations that it should not be here, but opponent is also playing and trying to adapt. And and many times also they they get exhausted of uh observing all the time if if the players are moving or or or going to the unusual positions that they were not supposed to, let's say, in quotations, uh, to go. So there are the good players also they find and or create different opportunities for themselves and for the teams. When they when they work together and and this kind of uh who said it, Yanni, you sent me the article that uh now it's like more about the what more about uh how I act with Jeep can be different than with with uh with Yanni in the same or similar situation that because I know you that you you like to do more this run. I expect I maybe create my with my body shape, I create uh one opportunity for you to come to this space to play him after, and but with Yanni, I I can take advantage of different kinds of uh behavior of the opponent and I I can prepare the situation different way, also.

SPEAKER_01 33:57

Is this uh discussion form versus function? So do we have the perfect form versus perfect structure or the function? There can be different functions in similar kind of situation.

SPEAKER_02 34:10

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And it's it's it's like I I I really believe that well-structured teams can can, of course, they can have advantage on this one, but finally the the button in the whiteboard doesn't do the pressure or may pass the ball. That finally you need to you need to have the the high-level behaviors and uh adaptations because it's it's like before they punch you in the face, you your game plan is a great game plan. It's a great game plan. Yeah, it's it's like when when the the stadium is full, like 50,000 people, and and and that the striker is running at you with uh like uh in the intention to hurt you, it's it's like it's easy to say that you just play there, play there, and uh you just uh faint him a little bit to press you in front and you can play behind him. But that needs a lot of uh repetitions of this problem solving to be able to function in that situation that is difficult to replicate.

SPEAKER_01 35:14

This is also related to music, and music is very important in your life. You have been talking about groove, for example, about groove, how the groove is important, not the kind of technical things in how the band is playing. What about in in football? Groove in football.

SPEAKER_02 35:31

In music also the best kind of players, many many of the top players they they have put a lot of effort on like mastering their instrument in every aspect. But uh you can also play music and football with a lower capacity like uh like abilities. But uh but the groove, yeah, I understand that. It's like when when you are in tune with your with the people that you play it with, it doesn't matter if it's music, if it's uh if it's football, uh that makes it like they say that it makes it lock. Like if you are a good drummer, you are in the pocket. So you are not in front, not behind, but you are in the pocket. Like uh in the sense that your your timing is is perfect for this tempo chords melodies and in the pocket it's it's like sometimes you need to because the groove. Sometimes it's like if you listen to like 70s music, there are like a lot of the there was no like metronomes in the in the studios and the guys just were feeling it. So sometimes it's it's it's the the the if there's like a some ballad song like like that is very emotional. Vocals, it's like the drummer comes just a tiny bit behind with the snare drum. Normally the the bass draw the boom is like on on the beat, and the snare drum can drag just a little bit to make it feel like even more, gives more space for the slower tempo and the melody. And then when it's like uh one fast forward going like a disco beat, it can be just a tiny bit in front to have the feeling of that we are going somewhere, really going. And and football, the best football players, they they change these tempos, like have the pausa in inside, looks like really crowded inside. But uh Xavior Inez the putting the foot on top of the ball just for the tiny bit, just to stop everybody else, and now you play the ball out. It's like the finding this different this right rhythm. And you can say groove in the in the playing. And it's like that, but it needs to be synchronized and in tune with the others, and this is I think you are looking here.

SPEAKER_00 37:55

So as a coach, can you can you like sense sense it that if your team is in the groove or not in the groove, or the rhythm is wrong, or the rhythm is right in the playing?

SPEAKER_02 38:08

Every coach, of course, they they perceive the game in their way. But I I see like when there's like a flow, flowing game. So the ball is moving, the moving, moving, moving. I I feel that now we are in our game, like in the pocket, let's say. It's like uh sometimes when you are forcing on the same side or same channel and and and you keep losing the ball, and it's like a counterattack, and then you need to react fast and you get the ball back, but you lose it again, and then you can see that this is not like uh free-flowing. This this this thing is it's like when what but when you the ball speed is okay, when they they find the good amount of touches, they they go from side to side and arrive. And you don't, of course, obviously you don't score every time, or you don't even always uh arrive to the good chances because it's it's difficult, of course, and you can arrive there, but but at least you see that you there is like it it feels normal, like normality in football for me. Someone likes that the ball goes back and forth, and so there are some teams that are really strong in in this one, but I for my personal uh test and where where what's what they are looking for, for example, many teams where I've been I have worked with there are different uh different uh like uh objectives in this kind of feeling. And the coaches many times they feel that if you want to have the position and an attack with the ball and uh not only look for the counterattacks, it's like if if if the ball position is not there, it's something it's real it feels that it's something is off, it like you said.

SPEAKER_01 39:41

So, Prof Duarte Araujo from University of Lisbon has said that the concept of technique is secondary to interacting with the environment. How does this feel to you?

SPEAKER_02 39:51

There are many actions that can be like executed with a lower skill level if the interaction is good. Or lower technique level or. Not technique or yeah, like you don't need to have the perfect touch, let's say, on the ball. To be able to. If you press me directly, for example, I can play the ball to JPE. If JPE also is interacting with me and maybe moving 2 meters and opening the passing line. Of course, if I need to chip the ball over you and may that is more like a demanding thing to do. It can be more difficult for me to do it, but that's the interaction for that. We try to help each other there. Uh, and and and that's why the interaction. Also, also the the these many of the actions are are not, let's say, technically demanding. Because if I play the ball seven meters to to the left foot of JPE, it's not technically demanding. Because I can do it all day, but of course, if there is a big stadium and and and uh someone is running at me, it makes it more difficult. But I technically it's not difficult, and you can with the with the connection with JPE, I can we can make it work. And and you can make it work many things. I I heard uh phrase that yeah, because we don't have the players of Team X, uh, we cannot play like Team X. It's like but you need to you need to make it work some other way then, because there is not only one way.

SPEAKER_00 41:27

But does skillful coaching live in coach environment system or is it something else?

SPEAKER_02 41:35

I think it's exactly exactly this that you can have all the knowledge in your head, let's say, but it you need to the the every situation is different and it needs to needs the interaction in in all the levels to deliver first the message but but to deliver the the knowledge is only only good if it's it's it's usable and and functional. And we need to try to see it in the in the real environment that the environment as close as we can create between us to be functional. And after there, there's the room for exploration and uh our shared path that we go together. Sometimes player a little bit in front and sometimes coach a little bit, or sometimes side by side.

SPEAKER_01 42:31

You described this very well already earlier in this episode when you were discussing about how you coach and these different kinds of exercises that you use, different shots you make, and how do you kind of help the goalkeeper to understand whether he has to be lower or higher and such things. So, Jarko, from your journey we went into goalkeeping skill, representative training, build-up, music, coaching, skillful coaching. Super interesting episode and super interesting stories.