Rewriting the "Rules" of Recovery

For this episode of The HeArt of Recovery, NCAAR Community Coordinator, Tonia Ahern sits down with Lynda McDonald, Certified Coach with The Invitation to Change. Tonia and Lynda, both family advocates and trainers, share their lived experiences navigating the intersection of substance use, family trauma, and the criminal justice system. They reflect on the flaws of punitive recovery models and share how mandated approaches often fail to heal—and instead, leave lasting damage. Through personal storytelling, they highlight the power of compassion, connection, and communication in transforming the systems surrounding recovery. 

Transcript

SPEAKER_01: 0:01

Welcome, everyone. This is Tanya Ahern with NCARB. I'm here today for the Heart of Recovery and speaking with Linda McDonald, my friend and colleague and fellow family trainer. So I wanted to just introduce Linda a little bit, let her tell you a little bit about her background, and then we can get into the conversation about our families and experiences with the criminal justice system and substance use. Welcome, Linda. Great to have you finally. We've been working on this for a while.

SPEAKER_00: 0:42

Yes, we have. Thank you, Tanya. It's so true. A little bit about myself is my background job-wise is that I am a supervisor of patient advocates at a hospital. So that has also brought me into working with people with substances and families here. I was a trained recovery coach, have not recertified, but I do have that. I am trained as an invitation to change. I'm trained in that also. I've been running family support groups probably for about 15 years, if not longer, and just have a passion for families and showing families there's different ways to do things because there was not any way for me. I didn't have anywhere to follow. So I learned a lot through you, through a lot of people over the years, and I just want to keep spreading that. So that's a little bit about me. I do have a son. who has a substance use disorder. I have a daughter-in-law and I have two grandchildren. So

SPEAKER_01: 1:47

glad to finally have you here. We have a lot of the same experiences as far as not having the support we needed when our children were younger and first started getting into substances. And we basically were relying on information from other people. Exactly. Trained, right? Yeah. and really were very much about holding somebody accountable and thinking that a punitive consequence was the way to stop the behaviors. We both found out that it actually caused more issues and the behaviors actually got worse as somebody who already didn't or couldn't cope was now given more to cope with. Right. And, and we

SPEAKER_03: 2:39

never,

SPEAKER_01: 2:39

you know, and I know this is the same for you is that the, the, we knew the underlying issues, like it, after a while, we started figuring out there were the underlying issues. No one told us we figured it out and nobody supposed to know those underlying issues, you know, and getting treatment for them. So, um, And so I don't know if you want to tell a little bit about your son's story and, you know, mostly about yours and your experience, but a little bit about, you know, how it all began for you.

SPEAKER_00: 3:11

So it all began, it feels like forever, and yet it feels like yesterday sometimes. He was 12 when he first actually got arrested for charges for marijuana. So, of course, the first place I went, not knowing anything, was to the juvenile conference. thinking that if I could get him into the juvenile conference, I was going to save him from a heartache of going into the system and going to jail. That was really what my thought process was at that point. He did go into rehab, which was not an easy task because I spent days and weeks on the phone calling everybody and their mother trying to find somebody who would take a 12-year-old who I also knew had some mental health issues, had been treated by psychiatrists too. So from there, after he did all of that, he ended up relapsing. I know it's not really the right word, but he ended up again using and right as soon as juvenile conference was over. So from there, it was just many ups and downs to the point that He was getting into a lot of trouble, ended up living with his dad for a while, came back to me. And when he came back to me, he was about 17 or 18 at that point. And that's when the substance use was getting worse, you know, different, majorly different drugs. He was using heroin at that point and now facing more legal charges. You know, so everything I thought that I was doing, which, you know, at the time, you're doing what you know how to do, was okay. But then, you know, I did get him into the jail system. He ended up going through drug court. He ended up going through many different charges, things like that.

SPEAKER_01: 5:09

So, you know, I think my son, we have a lot of similarities. I mean, he had some... some things as a juvenile, um, and that, you know, we really tried to take care of it as a juvenile and, and, and get him on a different path as an adult. You know, I know like Rory, um, it was a week after his 18th birthday when he got his first possession charge and he was shocked, right. Because it was not the same in the, in the adult system. And, um, you know, there really was not much, um, was not much I could do as far as those charges went. Like, they kind of made all the decisions. But we still weren't, we didn't get into the recovery court system until much, much later. But I, you know, I wondered, like, as an adolescent going through an inpatient program, I mean, that must have been difficult, you know, with the exposure of other people going through that system, too, and the different... Because not to say that cannabis isn't an issue, but sometimes in some of those treatment programs, they're exposed to even more things, right?

SPEAKER_00: 6:29

Yeah, and it's so interesting you say that because him and I have had some conversations about this now. First of all, he thought I abandoned him, which breaks my heart. As a parent, I wasn't doing that. I was really... I was really trying to save him, you know, from the life he ended up heading towards, you know, at that time. And my intentions were always were always that. But, yeah, it was difficult. And he he does talk about that. You know, he was exposed to so much. He said that, you know, I go in there because of pot. And, you know, the the other thing, too, I think people need to understand is, is that, yes, he went in there for pot. But the behaviors that led up to that, that happened. were also had addiction behind it. You know, he had family members that were that drank. He was drinking also. So there was a lot of other things than just the pot, you know, but that was that was kind of the go to. But he does talk about that, saying that it was really difficult that, you know, there was a lot of older people in there showing him and telling him what kind of drugs were there, you know, and I never even thought about that. That wasn't even on my radar. Right.

SPEAKER_01: 7:36

And how was how was it there for supporting you as a family member? I

SPEAKER_00: 7:42

have to say the first place was probably pretty good. The reason is, is because that was where I remember sitting in their their family meetings. Right. And I remember seeing all of these people up front standing there talking and, you know, and being facilitators to the meetings. And I thought to myself, how do I become them when I grow up? You know, and that's kind of where I I. took that step and leap into kind of working on myself at first, but then realized that it was a lot of parents in these meetings that needed more. So that was kind of my motivation to keep going. They were very supportive. Can I say all of the places that he has been supportive? Not at all. Many of them, I have to say, do not even know what to say to families, you know. many of the parent programs, some are good. I'm not saying that, you know, they're awful, but I don't think that they understand the family dynamics of, you know, what we're looking for, what we're trying to understand. We don't understand the court system. We don't understand the, you know, when you're first walking in there, what, you know, recovery means. We don't understand all of those things. So, you know, I'm one who will question because my background being an advocate, I will question a lot of things, you know, and I just kept You know, just kept moving forward, learning, educating myself, meeting the right people. And, you know, my ultimate is to always help families. But like I said, there were not a lot of places were not for families. And that was frustrating.

SPEAKER_01: 9:13

I think in our children are about the same age. And I think, you know, at that time, there was really very little for families. Certainly not, not like we had, like you and I have been educated on and

SPEAKER_00: 9:27

trained.

SPEAKER_01: 9:28

and more compassionate. I went to a family program. Someone told me to go to get support for myself. And at the time, I was worried about my son dying. And I was being told, you've got to walk away. And they did talk about boundaries. And boundaries, we understand boundaries, but in a different way, right? They weren't described to me in the way that we describe boundaries.

SPEAKER_00: 9:58

Exactly.

SPEAKER_01: 9:59

And I think, you know, I, I think my son also felt abandoned and, and what we don't understand too, is that now you're, now they're in the court system and they're looked at as a different, they're looked at as a criminal and, Right. So somebody who already had low self-esteem because a lot of the issues they had, they carry, um, you know, we're based on this low self-esteem and now you're, now you're telling them they're worthless. And, you know, myself, we said, you know, that's, that's a piece to this is that we are, um, we're dehumanized. Right. Yeah. We're not looked at as, you know, somebody who's struggling, you know, just to get by and who can't cope. And we're given more things to try to cope with. So we get into the criminal justice system where, of course, everybody said to me, don't get him an attorney, right? Let him go through the system. Don't pay for an attorney. Let him pay the price. You know, these are the consequences and you have to deal with the consequences. But the consequences are, ended up making things worse. You know, yeah, but you have to, yeah, there's consequences and you have to deal with those consequences. But when the consequences add trauma to somebody who already has trauma, it's, it's, you don't get what you thought you were going to get. Right. And that'll be, you know, in the families I talked to, like so often I would talk to families and they're like, well, just want them to get arrested because it'll be safe in jail.

UNKNOWN: 11:40

Right.

SPEAKER_01: 11:40

Jail is not a safe place. You know, first of all, there are drugs in jail, but, but even beyond that, it's the emotional and like the trauma that someone goes through, even to go to jail for two days, there's so much trauma. And so it's so degrading and dehumanizing. And my son never got over it. He, You know, when he was in, you know, the county jails for probation violations, those kind of things. But when he went to prison, it was only four months, which is really not that long. But those four months made such an impact on his life and how he felt about himself. And I can remember him coming home from jail. First of all, while he was there, he had no contact with us because... He told me that, I mean, I didn't even know where he was. I didn't know where they sent him. He said to me, if I talk to you, I'm not going to make it through this. I have to stay in this mindset. And when he came out, he spent two weeks letting it all out. I mean, I have trauma from the trauma exposed to me. And then he stopped. And then it became like it never happened. And the only time I saw that trauma come back again or that he exposed it was if he was fearing being arrested for a violation or something. All of a sudden, I saw the panic. I saw everything come back. And it's very interesting because I find that so many people that I talk to who have been through the criminal justice system block it all out, right? Yeah, my son does. It's like it didn't happen. Or that they're tough and they got through this very tough thing and it didn't impact their lives at all. You know that they're right. And we know there's so many things we know. Oh yeah. It did. So

SPEAKER_00: 13:44

many things.

SPEAKER_01: 13:45

And I think that's the thing too is like, you know, when you talk to your son about his experiences, how did he, how does he react? How did he react? Well,

SPEAKER_00: 13:55

it's interesting because he did the same thing as your son, you know, acting as if it was no big deal. It saved my life. It did all of this. But there were times that I picked him up from jail when he was being released and he had the crap beat out of him, you know. He was black and blue. He probably had a broken rib. And to even try to talk to him about it was just like, no, I don't want to talk about it. You know, it was just a shutdown of the things, you know. And same thing, when he knew that he had violated something and he had to go back, he was not happy about it. And I didn't always understand what he was going through, but then I started seeing more and more of how this probably wasn't the best route to go because it was causing so much more. And the other thing I remember thinking is that he was in there for charges that had to do with the reasons why he was using the substances. But he wasn't getting anything while he was there for that. You know, there wasn't any programs in the jail system. There wasn't anybody that he could really talk to. You know, there were some places that they sent him that were like hardened criminals. And he had a really hard time with that because he had to pick like, you know, what side do I have to be on? Who do I have to be friends with so my life is saved? You know, those are some of the conversations that we had. And And as a mom, it's heartbreaking to hear that on top of the fact that he wasn't being helped for what he really needed to be helped for. And it was, like you said, it was causing a lot more trauma because, yes, you don't feel good about yourself. You'd have that low self-esteem. But at the same time, you have to put on this act while you're in the jail system that you are somebody that you may not be, you know. And that was difficult. And, you know, I will share that right now. He is sitting in a county jail again because of some, you know, mistakes that he has made. And the conversations have a lot to do with what he's gone through. And, you know, and I'm seeing some of that trauma coming back, you know, and how he has to. I think it's the survival that he has to do. And, you know, and then no help that to me, it's no help. You're just sitting in there.

SPEAKER_01: 16:14

Well, it's interesting. You, you mentioned to the, you know, like having to pick sides when you come in and those kinds of

SPEAKER_03: 16:20

things.

SPEAKER_01: 16:21

So I had a, and I, this, I, I realized, and I, you know, I was shocked by this because I'm naive about, I knew nothing about the prison system, the jail, you know, in jails. And so I really didn't know anything about this and no one talks about this. And so I want to talk about it, the racism in the jails and, It's so extreme. And when you're, and I had a conversation with a legislator in New Jersey who actually approached me about this, and this was years ago, and he's now, you know, he's now a Congressman because I'm not going to say his name, but he brought this up to me and he said, what, what do we do about white supremacy in our area? And I don't even know where it came from. He just brought it up. And my first reaction was, let's start in the jails. Absolutely. When you put a young man, a young white man, into the county jail, automatically they are separated out, right? And they are protected, they say, protected. Yes. By people who are supposed, are protecting them from Black and brown people in the jail. It is an absolute division. I don't care what, and the prisons, you know, they may, Department of Corrections may say I'm wrong. They all know I'm right. There is a division. There is definitely a division. And so, and what happened with my son is, okay, so now you've got people who are basically making you pledge your allegiance to these groups who are protecting you from the bad guys. that are, you know, we're going to come and get you in the jail. You're protected by them. And you're, you know, you kind of pledge that when you leave that you're part of this group. And what happens is like when he left and he did not comply or did not get involved with these groups, he started getting like really threatening messages from, going on to his social media, texting him. If he knew he was going to have to turn himself into jail, which is the most horrific thing that you have that. It's the most horrific thing to put somebody through is to make them turn themselves into a jail. Yes. He had to prepare to be part of those groups again.

SPEAKER_00: 19:01

Exactly.

SPEAKER_01: 19:03

So when you put young people... you know, somebody into the criminal justice system and they're not prepared and they're scared. And then the first thing that happens is they're divided in the jail. What do you think happens to people? You know, it's, I mean, that's a big part of this, right? That's a big part. The criminalization part is a big part of it. I would love to sit down and have a conversation with this congressman now who now doesn't seem to see a problem. with white supremacy and

SPEAKER_00: 19:38

division. It's so prevalent out there. I remember my son having to get tattoos in order to, he would come out of jail because he knew that if he went back in, he got certain tattoos. And I would ask him, like, why'd you get that? Because I don't know. And he'd be like, oh, it's a car or whatever. Little did I know later on until I showed it to a friend of mine who was a police officer and said no. And the sad part, too, is they're like, oh, well, that's really good because he's smart enough to protect himself. So it's like a double-edged sword in a way when you hear that. Because, you know, it's kind of sad that he has to be smart enough to know those things, you know. And yeah, he's because he's blonde hair, blue eyes, you know, white that he and he's very much against that. And he'll say it. But he's you know, he's like, but when I'm in here, what do I what do I do? Protection.

SPEAKER_01: 20:35

Right. I

SPEAKER_00: 20:36

mean, my son has protection.

SPEAKER_01: 20:38

Yeah. They got tattoos in the jail. Exactly.

SPEAKER_00: 20:41

He still has some.

SPEAKER_01: 20:42

Yeah. Yeah. Well, I mean, and because and my son never would cover it. Yeah. Just in case something happened. Exactly. And he talked to me about it. Yep. Just in case something happens, I end up in the jail. This will protect me. A tattoo. Yep. Right? Yep. And so that's the kind of stuff nobody talks about. And, you know, I work with peers all over the state who have had experience in prison and jails. I mean, that was part of their history. They don't talk about it either. No. It's like... the recovery community is so used to pushing, pushing past all that trauma and not, not talking about it. I don't think it's about in, I don't think it's talked about in treatment, you know, I think to talk about it, you know, but, but when you look at, you know, there's that underlying trauma that got them to the point where they were using stuff, but then you compound it with the trauma of the criminal justice system. And, and, you know, we were, we, we were getting, we were on a positive, we were going on a positive way as far as criminal justice went. You know, like we have been, we've come up with more programs and, you know, recovery court is a program to keep them out of the prison system, right? You know, there's pluses and negatives, right, on that. And, you know, it depends on what county you're in, what kind of support you get, what kind of support you get, how difficult they make it for you. There's, you know, it's county by county. But it's better than prison, right? Yeah. You got to support that part of it. It's better than someone going to prison. There are services that are connected to it, and that's a good thing. But, you know, there's still, you know, even in the, so you put somebody, you mandate them to treatment, but the treatment's always the same, you know? Yeah. And we'll, you know, everybody's saying, you know, trauma-informed treatment. Trauma-informed is not the same as trauma treatment. And, you know, that's something you give somebody easily, right? Trauma treatment is not, you have to be prepared for it. You have to be ready

SPEAKER_00: 22:52

for

SPEAKER_01: 22:52

trauma treatment. I don't know how much we prepare people for, you know, getting them to that point. I know there are people who would probably be angry at me for saying it, but I mean, I don't see where we're really giving people trauma treatment.

UNKNOWN: 23:10

Right.

SPEAKER_01: 23:10

And I think, you know, we rushed through the treatment part of it, or we just basically, you know, we put them in long-term treatment and the majority of the time is really about meetings, you know, self-help groups, right? That doesn't address trauma, you know? And in fact, a lot of times it's kind of pushing it back a little bit and saying, you get past that, don't

SPEAKER_00: 23:35

deal with it. And I think when people hear trauma too, you know, when they're doing the trauma treatments, you know, they're thinking of your past, your childhood and things like that. They're not looking, not always looking at the jail. They're not looking at the things that even while you're in the midst of your substance use disorder and, you know, the worst things, there's still trauma that happens in those, you know, are those touched upon enough? Are we just looking at, you know, what happened when you were a child, which I'm not, saying that that's a bad thing or anything like that. But I think we have to look at trauma as a whole person because there's so many different aspects that happened. And I think that's what needs to be addressed.

SPEAKER_01: 24:23

And grief. And I think a good friend of my son's talked to me about what happens in treatment when they address grief. Now, He's talking about, he had been, it's been a while since he's been in treatment and some of this could change, but he was saying how, you know, they would sit in a group and they'd start talking about the losses, you know, and that grief, right. And, and even as family members, when we talk about grief, a lot of times it's so focused on the losses, but there's so many other things that people grieve, you know, you know, the, the normalcy that, that they didn't get right. Or, you know, right. Things didn't, you know, the opportunities they missed, the friendships they lost because of their substance use, like all these kinds of things. But he was saying, you know, they would sit in this group and they would talk about, you know, how many people they lost. And he's like, I just couldn't deal with it. And I noticed this too, a lot of people who have been using for a while and have lost a lot of people. My son said this to me, you hear about you lost somebody, a friend, a close friend, and you're just, overwhelmed with this grief and then it's gone because you have to push it aside. Like you have to, you can't spend too much time on it because you don't know how to deal with it. And then you go to a rehab and they're like, tell us all the, you know, how many people have you lost? And we said it was so, it was so much worse because they're making you talk about all this, you know, all these people you lost. Right. And you know, that's, I mean, our children have lost, More people. So many. You know, we're years older than them, right? I haven't lost nearly as many people in my life as my son at 24 had lost way more people than I have. Absolutely. But there's also the grief of, you know, their friends went on and got married and had children. Your son did get married and had children. My son never did. But every time... you know, somebody had these or went to college or, you know, got a great job and all these things. And he was so tied into the court systems that he couldn't get in. He couldn't break away. I mean, he was in the criminal justice system from the age of 18 to when he died at 29. In fact, the weekend before he died was the first time he had left the state because he was on the run from recovery court. Right. But he left the state. to spend the weekend with one of the mates from a boat he was working on with their family in Philadelphia. And he was sending me pictures of the first time he ever went to Chinatown, you know, in Philadelphia. And he's like, mom, I'm going to take you here. We're going to have lunch here. I want to, like all these things he never did at 29 years old. Exactly. The grief of the, you know, here he had friends traveling around doing all these great things and he couldn't do any of that. Yeah. And he was looked at

SPEAKER_00: 27:25

as, you know, a criminal. They're not criminals. They're not. They, you know, they're people who made bad choices because of the substance and the traumas and, you know, all the other things that happened, you know. And that's where I think we lose sight, you know. And I do wish that, you know, I mean, if they have to be in there, you know, have programs, have something for them. You know, I mean, right now, my son, he's in a different county and he's like, But he goes, I wish I could go back to the other county I was in. Because he said, you know, they were decent. They were nice to me. You know, where he's at now, it's, you know, very much of, you know, you are, you know, a hardened criminal. And he didn't do anything that would make him a hardened criminal. Maybe bad choices? Absolutely. He's in jail for one thing because of bad choices. But His substance use disorder has led up to those bad choices. And, you know, the state doesn't look at that as a substance because you made the bad decision. So, you know, even though lawyers and everybody else, we know that what he really needs is a strong program or, you know, a strong support system. It's just so off balance. And it's very frustrating because you've got a lawyer who's saying this and then you have the state who's like, no, absolutely not. You know, you're a hardened criminal. You should be in jail and prison for like 10, 15 years, you know. And

SPEAKER_01: 28:55

there's no rehab. There's no rehabilitation for that. A psychiatrist from the Department of Corrections was doing, they were doing a presentation on a trauma program for the women's prison in Clinton. And I was, you know, I'm going to raise my hand. I'm like, so men don't have trauma? Yeah,

SPEAKER_00: 29:15

exactly. You know, like,

SPEAKER_01: 29:17

and, and he's like, Oh my gosh, I can't because it was a woman doing the presentation. He's like, Oh, he just gave her some fire because she's true. She'd been saying the same thing that, you know, this is great. We're starting this program, a trauma program in the prison for women, but, but men have a tremendous amount of trauma that we address. And, and typically, um, never address it. They are out of treatment and they're in recovery. So many of them still have never dealt with the trauma, you know, because that's what we do for men. We tell them to push it, you know? And so it's, it's a really difficult thing. And that's what makes it difficult too. When I'm working with people, you know, peers are in the working in the system. So many of them just don't really want to get into the Yeah, absolutely. Right. And so I feel like as a family member, I need to inform other family members, right, that this is real. And these are things that happen that may be why somebody struggles or continues to struggle and that you don't understand. And that, you know, it's not as simple as just saying, push it aside. You're lucky to be alive. Jail saved me. Court saved me. Right. But, you know, did they... did they help you to really, you know, move forward? You know, I mean, some people, you know, I mean, a lot of people, a lot of people do and are happy, but there's a lot of, there's a lot of other things that go on in people's lives that are because of that trauma. They may not be, they might not be using substances anymore. They may not, you know, they may be working and, you know, being part of a community that, But, you know, when we don't even talk about it and I do think families need to understand because so many families have this mindset that, hey, people went through a recovery court and they did great. And so I just want my child in recovery court without understanding that there are some people that don't do great in those kind

SPEAKER_00: 31:53

of programs because they can't. My son's one of them, you know. He went through the recovery. He went through the drug court and everything. I mean, it took him forever. He didn't necessarily, as they say, graduate because of all the violations. But, you know, it was just, you know, and he'll say, oh, it saved me. It saved me, you know, but did it, you know? And, you know, that's a conversation that I, that, you know, I talk about. And I think that that's what you said is important for families is that it's okay to talk about these things. And, you know, And I know for me, it was a lot of fear. And so for fear for me was, yeah, he's in jail, he's alive. And I get that, you know. But, you know, there are so many other options. And I think the more that we talk to each other and the more that we explain and educate families on, you know, what are some other choices? What are other things that can be done? will benefit everybody.

SPEAKER_01: 32:46

Just communicate. Communication skills, you can't say enough about having open communication with the family. It's hard when somebody's actively using. Sometimes it's really

SPEAKER_00: 32:58

hard.

SPEAKER_01: 32:58

People will say to me, you're so calm. You're really calm and keep it together. I'm like, that's not always true. The difference is that I recognized when I lost it and I can go back and have a conversation about it. And responsibility myself were my reactions, right? Because we're in fear and we're angry, right? And so we do react. As trained as you are, it doesn't matter. No matter how much training you have, the only thing that that training and that education is giving you is awareness. an understanding of when that just did not work. Right. Like that was just, you made a mistake. Me owning up and saying to my son, I know I lost it. It's not really the, what I wanted to communicate to you. I was scared for me to admit that I was scared and I was angry, changed that relationship I had with him. And it ultimately helped. And it really did. And I have to say that I, Even though, you know, I lost my son and, you know, and he actually was doing better when he passed away. But the one thing that changed was my relationship with him and his openness about what was going on in his life. Yes. You know, even if he lied to me about, you know, his drug use. I mean, he knew I knew, right? I didn't attack him for it. He knew I knew.

UNKNOWN: 34:32

Right.

SPEAKER_01: 34:33

But he also, what also happened was I started educating my family as well and he became more open with them. So it changed their relationship as well. Like the entire family's relationship changed. And so I can say that when I lost my son, that I had, I, I don't have regrets on, on what happened. went on between us and that means a lot more than you think, you know, to, to have lost someone, um, not the outcome that I wanted. Right. But, but to have, to have this outcome where there was a relationship where he knew that he was not dehumanized by me, you know, family supported him even when he wasn't, doing well, we still supported him. And we still, we weren't walking away from him. We had to set boundaries for ourselves. Absolutely. But those boundaries did include walking away.

SPEAKER_00: 35:34

And explaining why you might have to walk away. Right. You know, and my son for years was like, he thought I was null and void of any emotions because I just held it all in. And it wasn't until I really started talking to him. And even to this day, because you know, as family members, we go through some trauma too, with the things that we have to see and the things that we've had to do with them over the years. And, but I have learned to say to him, like, listen, I'm getting upset because it's triggering me, you know, on some past behaviors. So give me a moment, you know, and then, but yeah, the best thing is, is that we can still talk, you know, he's going to love the decision he makes, but I respect that he He has opinions. He has decisions that he has to make. He's obviously way older, but I'm very thankful that at least we have, like you said, that relationship of being able to talk, which we never had early on. It was just bucking heads and fighting. I was just going to save him no matter what I had to do. I was going to walk all over whatever rights he might think he had. until I educated myself, until I made myself better or understand what the system was and how to communicate better with him. And I always say, even in the meetings, how do we love them through this and still have those boundaries in there, but still be able to hold those conversations. And I think that that's what's important too. And you and I are fortunate that we have that.

SPEAKER_01: 37:04

Right. Yeah. And that's something that we're like NCAR is working on some programs and stuff for youth, right? Because there's so many young people who have been impacted by family members with substance use. So we're doing some, we're actually doing, doing some work on training youth on these skills, right? And to be able to, I'm really excited about this. It's something that we're going to do our first youth summit in August. There's somebody from here at works who is on the board for Center for Motivation and Change, which we were both trained with. What we're going to work on is educating youth on how to talk to other young people, right? And And taking away this idea that, you know, so they have family members who have been impacted. My children went through so much because of their brother's experience. I think yours is an only child. Mine, I have four children, four other children. And so they were really impacted by his use and, you know, have all had trauma from it. What we're doing is educating youth that have been impacted so they can go out and talk to other youth. And that's great support for others. And while we're doing that, we're also working with the family members

SPEAKER_00: 38:27

who, Oh, that's beautiful.

SPEAKER_01: 38:28

Yeah. So I think we're giving them tools. It's going to be a very shortened version of, of parent coaching, but then we'll give him, they'll give them, you know, ways to connect with groups that are trained family coaches. But I, I mean, I think that like we should be doing these tools and, And I've been saying this because the partnership to end addiction was, that's where I ended up going to get this training with Center of Motivation and Change. And you did try it too.

SPEAKER_00: 38:59

I did.

SPEAKER_01: 39:00

Yes. And I kept saying to him, like, we should be teaching, we should be educating families about these tools that have nothing to do with substance use. Yes. It's communication skills is all it is. Every family should get these tools because they've actually helped with mental health. They help with everything, right? And most families have absolutely no education. I mean, you become a parent with no, no one gives you skills. I'm like, no. Not at all. You figure it out. You just figure it out. So some are lucky. Some will be like, oh, we push them all into sports and things like that and they'll be good, which is not necessarily true. But this is what people tell you to do. Get them involved in everything. But even those kids have issues.

SPEAKER_00: 39:53

It's

SPEAKER_01: 39:53

really

SPEAKER_00: 39:54

about communication. Yeah, it absolutely is. And I teach communication here where I work all the time. And it's funny how I do bring a lot of what I've learned in Invitation to Change and how to communicate. And I laugh because when I'm training staff here, I'm like, oh, this is what I've done. And I tell them, you know, this isn't just for the patients in the hospital. This uses on your families when you go home, you know, and so many of the staff has come back to me and said, you know what? I went home and had for the first time a conversation with my family and with my kids. You know, and these are families that probably don't have, you know, the issues that we've had to deal with. But you know how satisfying that is to know that, you know, like what we're being trained, you and I, with the communication can also go out into life. And, you know, it just changes the whole dynamics. And everybody says to me all the time is like, you know, how do you stay so calm? How do you stay so calm? And, you know, my calmness comes from the fact that I've learned how to communicate. I've learned how to pause. I've learned how to take that breath, you know, and try and look at the situations a little bit differently. Right.

SPEAKER_01: 41:09

Well, this has been a great conversation, and you and I talked about it. This really has, as always. Yeah. I'm very, I'm, I'm so glad we finally got together and talked about all of it. And I think it's perfect timing too, as you know, we're moving towards more criminalization, unfortunately. I mean, you know, hoping that, you know, maybe these conversations will help families be more prepared and not use the criminal justice system as a way to, you know, to get help for somebody. I mean, sometimes we're, No choice, right? But if we can learn to communicate and we can meet somebody where they are and try to help motivate that way. I used to say to people before I got the training, I was like, you have to learn to manipulate the manipulator, right? So true. So true. But it's motivation, you know, it's, it's motivational interviewing. And I think that's really an important piece that families don't know how to do and, um, you know, scary times. So, you know, I just think the more prepared we are, um, and the more understanding we have that there is trauma in the system and, you know, the, you know, the best way to avoid that is to try to address trauma. issues outside of the system if you can. It's

SPEAKER_00: 42:31

okay to talk about it all. Right, right. Yes, this has been great. Absolutely. Thank you as always.

SPEAKER_01: 42:39

All right. Thank you, everyone. I hope this was helpful. And if you're looking for information on how to reach a family coach, you can contact NCAR. We can send you some links. There are regional family coaches. Every county has a family coach program. So if you're interested in getting involved, if you want to talk to somebody, you can talk to us. Just give me a call or email me at tahearn.com. ncar.org. Thank you, everyone.

SPEAKER_02: 43:12

Thank you for listening to The Heart of Recovery, a production of NCAR, the National Center for Advocacy and Recovery. Thank you so much for joining us. and Facebook at N-C-A-A-R O-R-G