Districts Designed in 3 Dimensions: A Podcast featuring Madison Metropolitan School District

Listen to this podcast, which features students, parents, teachers, coaches, and district administrators from Madison Metropolitan School District. Learn from their experience as they speak to the daunting process of change management in view of the 3 Dimensions of Student Achievement.

Thank you to all our guests who took us on this journey in Madison:

Dr. Shanta Lightfoot, Cindy Green, Becky Kundert, Kate Jorgensen, and Sue Ablanalp

Thanks to Black Hawk Middle students and teacher:

Mah’lana, Taraji, Kiki, Jack, and Stephanie Mouser

Thanks to Madison parents:

Thomasina and Allyssa

Special thanks:

Katie Schneider Gumiran, Marcus Hung, Nate Martz, and Monica Noa

If you’d like to learn more about partnership opportunities with EL Education, visit eleducation.org/partner-with-us, or send an email to salesinquiry@eleducation.org 

To learn more about EL Education’s use of the Curriculum Implementation Change Framework (CICF), a research-backed, field-tested resource developed by the Center for Public Research and Leadership (CPRL) at Columbia University, visit: https://eleducation.org/news-and-events/press-releases/el-education-to-begin-using-research-backed-tool-from-columbia-universitys-cprl-to-enhance-k-8-professional-learning/

Transcript

SOT: Walkthrough debrief - Nate’s prompt & educator talking about kinders “finding the beat”

Host: You’re hearing educators in Madison, Wisconsin debriefing a district walkthrough… 
they’re sharing things they saw in the classrooms that brought a smile to their faces.

SOT: Walkthrough debrief - Monica talking about leadership moves to build teacher capacity

Host: Later on in the episode you’ll hear from many of the people who do this work in Madison Metropolitan School District in partnership with EL Education. 

But first, let’s get oriented to the journey.            

This podcast is produced by EL Education, a national nonprofit that partners with educators to transform diverse public schools into hubs of opportunity for all students to achieve equitable outcomes. I’m your host, Katie Schneider Gumiran.

In our first episode, we explored why it matters for school districts to design teaching and learning around three dimensions of student achievement, which EL Education defines as joining mastery of knowledge and skills to character and high-quality work. We traveled to various districts around the country to hear it in action.

This time, I’m lucky to have a co-pilot. And my co-pilot is Dr. Shanta Lightfoot. She's the Managing Director of District Partnerships at EL Education. 

(Hi Shanta, hi Katie!) 

Host: You're so passionate about this three dimensional work and about partnering with districts to be able to do that in ways that are meaningful to them and fit within their context. So it made me wonder about your growing up. Did you have a three dimensional ...or we sometimes call this a whole child education? Is that how you were raised in the education system?

Shanta: I grew up in a rural community where I believe wholeheartedly teachers cared about the kids that they served every day, that they cared about the families that they served, and what they put in front of children every day. But it was not packaged in a way of thinking about academics and character and high-quality work being three integrated places that all come alive in the classroom. They were kind of separated, right? So the character came from the guidance counselor. The academics came from the teacher and high-quality work oftentimes, it was infused in beautiful projects that were aesthetically pleasing but perhaps may not have held the rigor or attachment to the things I was actually learning. And there definitely wasn't any reflection about the work that I did, why it mattered, what I was going to do with it in the world afterward. But certainly several attempts by teachers to move the threshold for children in a rural community, but not in the concerted way that I believe EL education grounds our curriculum and our model.

Host: Yeah, I can relate to that. We used to make a lot of dioramas back in the day.

Shanta: Yeah, (laughing) dioramas and planets on some strings. 

Host: Oh yeah, all the planets, all the planets. But what makes EL different, then? I like how you speak to the intentionality of the teachers being there to see you as a whole child and honor you and your family in that space, and give you everything you deserve. But what is EL doing that's helping make that more possible at scale?

Shanta: EL believes wholeheartedly in students being leaders of their own learning and lead learners in the classroom. And so I believe EL situates students to have facilitated conversations that deepen their understanding about the world around them, about the content in which they're engaging, and then helps them to think about how they contribute to a better world. And so I believe that we've worked as an organization to integrate both mastery of knowledge and skills, which we know is a necessary part of the work, with character and high quality work. And I think EL brings those together in an integrated way that really supports teachers, students, AND staff to be able to think about the whole child in a systemic way.

Host: Right. And in our last episode, we talked about how that can be done and WHY that should be done at a systems level with the district rather than school by school, piecemeal, classroom by classroom. And we toured around some of our partners. We went to Sunnyside, Arizona, hung out in Oakland, California. We came Midwest to Madison, Wisconsin, and we heard some stories of different partners. And I was just wondering, in your work, you're working with partners all the time. How did people react to those stories and hearing about the three dimensional work in these districts?

Shanta: Katie, you bring a great point. I think one of the ways that people learn about our three dimensional work at the district level is through our National Conference. We had an opportunity for Madison to be featured on our stage and the students shared their work that they had been doing… 

SOT: National Conference - Ava & Malia presenting Bernard’s Books

Shanta: …and folks see that on stage and they're so excited to learn how did the children get to that stage? How did they do this project? 

SOT: End of presentation & applause

Shanta: How do we get all of our schools to be representative of the schools that we see at National  Conference? Cause that's what we want for all children, right? How do we make that come alive for every district in a systemized way that supports students being leaders of their own learning, but also grounds them in the mastery of knowledge and skills that's necessary for the world. And I believe that Madison is just one of those great places where we get to do that work.

Host: Exactly. So let's zoom into Madison for this episode. Let's get to know them a little better. Let's walk with them through the change that they went through when they started implementing and partnering with EL. And let's kinda feel what that's like on the ground in this episode.

Shanta: That sounds wonderful. Madison is in their 3rd year of support from EL and in their first year, they really concentrated on K5. So really implementing our curriculum with their teachers. They had a big old launch. They had lots of people there to support them and their focus was K-5 and how they implement the curriculum. And then in the second year, they started to implement 6-8. And this year, we're currently working with them K-8 to begin deeply analyzing data with them, to begin deeply interrogating some of the problems of practice that they have identified as places where they want to grow. We're monitoring implementation alongside them, walking schools, arm in arm. Looking at what students are able to do, looking at what teachers and how teachers are taking the transformative power of our curriculum and expanding it and implementing it with integrity. And so I'm really excited about the work that is in Madison. Their district leaders are all bought in. They are all in the work with us. And so it is truly an honor to be a partner with them. And oftentimes in spaces we could be seen as a vendor. And I believe Madison has really positioned us as partners in the work, and we rely on them and say for what my team, I tell my team all the time: we need our partners because they hold the context of their district. They hold the context of their state. They hold a context of what has worked and not worked. And our job is to bring the curriculum to meet that contextual need. And that's where we get to work elbow in elbow with Madison.

Host: And I heard from them when we met last time for the last episode, that they feel that partnership versus that vendor relationship, but also that it's a really big change. And we know that change management is really important when a big change is happening. So can you tell us a little bit about EL's approach to change management? What is their theory of change and approach to walking hand in hand with partners through such a big shift?

Shanta: For sure, Katie, district change and the systemetized change requires all the entire district to get behind the change and to support that change. And so what we believe here at EL is that when we combine our curriculum with a set of core strategies that we implement: Coach PD, district-level leader support, ongoing support for teachers. When we combine that, what we see is a change in teacher practice and the community in which students experience every day or learning conditions that lead us to three dimensions of student achievement. What undergirds that is this idea of continuous progress monitoring and continuous improvement for equity. Specifically, we look at the strategies we're implementing. We're looking at data. We're looking at testing data, and we are continuously sitting in a space of inquiry. What is working? What is not working? What systems do we need to build? What systems do we need to capitalize on? What systems might we need to reinvent and rethink for each specific partner. 

 
Host: Is there a particular framework that you follow when you're doing this monitoring for change? 

Shanta: We've done a lot of different frameworks, but one of the ones that we are now really excited to be talking about is the curriculum implementation change framework that we at EL built in concert with CEPRL. And what the goal of that is to paint the picture of instruction with our ELA curriculum. What should it look like in a classroom? What does it feel like? What does it sound like? And then how do we monitor what we're seeing in that implementation progression against what teachers and students are saying in sets of surveys. And we take that all to triangulate the data to say: Hey, how's a veteran teacher feeling about implementation? What might we need to design for that particular person? Versus what is a novice teacher perhaps experiencing with the curriculum, and how might we support them? 

Host: Sounds very three dimensional the way you're looking at change, right? Like, there's the character piece because we're humans and when humans go through change, there's some turmoil and that's okay. Well, we're gonna get some emotions and feelings and perspectives on this journey because we're going to talk to people who have that bird's eye view at the district leadership level and also at the school leadership level. And also we'll hear from some parents too, to hear what this change feels like and is like on the ground. So we're excited! Are there any things you're hoping to glean from hearing these stories from folks in Madison?

Shanta: I am looking forward to hearing the impact of the change. Change can be beautiful and it also can be hard. And so I'm really interested in hearing how are students evolving during this change? How are parents feeling about the change? What did they see differently about how their students are engaging in the work? And so I'm really excited to understand– curriculum is just one change that many districts go on to undergo. And so I'm also interested in hearing how does this become transferable to other big initiatives that a district might undertake? And how can we be of support to districts as they begin to undertake those other big initiatives?

Host: Well, I love the complexity of your thinking. How all the pieces weave together. Cause that's just how the curriculum's designed and how the model is designed. So I look forward to sharing their insights with you through this podcast episode.

Shanta: I'm so excited, Katie. 

MUSIC TRANSITION

Cindy:  I don't remember thinking about or feeling like all parts of who I was were tended to in school.

Host: This is Cindy Green. She’s the Assistant Superintendent of Teaching and Learning at Madison Metropolitan School District.

Cindy: If I look back on my educational career, while I had experiences at places that were of very high quality, I personally don't know that I found those connections in school where I felt like all my needs were being met.

Host: So how did that drive you to do the kind of work you're doing now, which IS trying to provide that whole child approach for all kids in a district?

Cindy: I started education, and I started my career, middle school was that sweet spot for me where I was like, Oh, I get you and I get what's happening with you, because I was that kid that, really needed to have someone understand what was going on with me socially, emotionally, what was going on with me in terms of engagement and opportunities for collaboration. All of the things that was not my middle school experience.

When you walk into classrooms and you see students thriving in the classroom, both in terms of engaging and learning that is hands-on engaging and learning that is culturally relevant and culturally responsive, engaging in learning that is allowing for the conditions for learning that are set before you dive into the rigorous content, thinking about the moves the teacher makes in order to ensure every student is set up for success. Those things are really important for a student to thrive in the classroom and some of those are the things that EL has both in terms of the curriculum have provided us, but also in terms of their partnership and how they've been coaching us and coaching our staff in terms of just setting up the physical environment and setting up thinking about how, the teacher provides instructional practices that focus and center, students social emotional needs, the student learning, the active classroom. Kindergarteners talking through the goal that they have set with their teacher for reading, or third graders deep in conversation with each other around a particular text that they might be reading. 

That type of action that we're seeing in the classroom, was not happening in the same way before the work that we started with EL Education.

Host: What made you want to go through this change?

Cindy: We've had significant gaps between the performance of students that identify as white compared to our students that are African American. So I think first, that's the first thing is we must do something different. We as adults, we need to try to ensure we're doing a better job serving our students.

We have a focus on Black excellence. We have a specific goal that is to ensure we are uplifting and improving outcomes for our students that identify as African American and as a district, we've been on this 20 year plus equity journey, right? How do we bring that more into action around how we improve outcomes for kids? So that was something that was part of our criteria and our rubric that we used when we are vetting materials. We needed to find something that wasn't just like windows and mirrors– important that the materials represent our students– but we wanted to also find somebody that actually lived, this talk around equity and was going to help us as a system continue to push on equity in a way that was going to, again, improve outcomes for kids.

At the same time, we started to deeply engage in the science of reading. I know that materials alone do not teach children. I know that materials are a really important part to the educational experience, but that teachers teach children and we needed to find something that was going to be beyond just books and curricula. We needed to find something that was going to really help us as a system shift and change. 

I also knew that we had to find something that was more relevant and more representative of the students that we serve. Both in terms of the pedagogy, but also in terms of materials that were representative of our students. 

And so we set off on this kind of really intense curricular adoption, and through that EL rose to the top. And I think, for me, it was, yes, the materials, what kids were going to physically experience every day, but it was the partnership components that EL brought into the conversation around, they aren't just a vendor that gives you books, they are a partner with you to support you and be side by side, either behind the scenes if you want them or front and center, elbow to elbow. And that is something that I think we deeply needed.

Host: Mmhmm, and how did EL support you as you went through the growing pains of this change?

Cindy: Change management has been a center to this implementation. And I think both in terms of what we're trying to pay attention to every day within the district, but I think what I also love about our partners in EL Education, because they kind of push us on that and remind us all of the time about this idea of to like, not just go slow to go fast, but like thinking about all of the components of change management before we make decisions. We had two, no, three schools that had been using EL before we adopted it as a system. That to me was a really important piece of our change management.

What's been really important is the voice of our staff and the voice of our community to be a part of this work has also been something that I think has been a huge piece of change management. And I'll say it hasn't been easy, and it still isn't easy, right? Like, when you go through a significant change in a district, anyone that has tried to do it, you know you hit a lot of bumps in the road. But I think we've stayed relentless on this focus of, literacy must be our priority, this is the work, and, staying the course and providing supports along the way. The last thing I'll say about that is, EL has been providing, not just some professional learning and support for us, but they're doing some side by side coaching with our schools.

There's many people at EL that I have deep respect for that are equity champions in the way that they operate in the way that they have seen them lead. And I think we need them to continue to help us, with that and be honest with us, right? I don't want a partnership where someone's telling me a bunch of fluff. Tell me the truth. Be honest, let's have this honest relationship so that we can move through change. 

MUSIC TRANSITION

SOT: Protocol - students talking about Williams’s traits

Host: These are 6th grade students at Black Hawk Middle in Madison. They’re talking about a book from the EL curriculum. Later on we’ll hear more from them, and from their principal and instructional coach. We’ll hear about how the types of discussions they’re having now are different from before implementing EL.

SOT: Protocol - students building on ideas

Host: But first, we’re going to hear from the person who works on literacy with ALL of the schools in Madison Metropolitan School District, Becky Kundert. She’s the Executive Director of Curriculum and Instruction. 

Becky: Once students feel that they are seen and are belonging, then what we know is that they actually want to do better. We know that personal regard and authentic relationships allow staff to push students to have higher expectations. And it also ensures that staff members hold higher expectations.

Host:   Becky was a principal at one of those schools Cindy mentioned that chose to pilot the EL curriculum BEFORE the entire district took it on. She’s now responsible for scaling the work with EL implementation across the district.   

Becky: Our staff were very clear about wanting to disrupt and dismantle those opportunity gaps in our student outcome data.

Host: What are you celebrating now that you got everybody on board and you've moved ahead? What are you seeing now in the data that's different now since implementing EL?

Becky: From May to May, across the district, we demonstrated a 3 percent increase in our screening for literacy, which is great, we love to see a 3 percent increase for our students. Not really accelerated, right? One of our lab schools, when our data came back, had really demonstrated a 6%, right? So, double what the district was from May to May. Our other school demonstrated a 15 percent increase. We think about where schools are in implementation. Those schools we'd identified that had been really implementing prior to the district. It brings a great story for everybody who is in the journey and is a year a little bit later. They're not a year behind. They just started at a different time.

We have historically not been able to really move that data in Madison for our Black or African American students. That first lab school had grown within their percentage from the 2022-23 to the 23-24 school year, which is really exciting.

Host: It is! So how did you do it? 

Becky: A couple levers for impact for us in a school district that's our size with 50 schools, what are the systems and structures that we can set up that allow us to work alongside schools in service of schools?

While our learning walks do inform us about how schools are implementing the curriculum, what we also know is that we're using that data and their outcomes to determine where schools are in implementing these core instructional practices. Are they unpacking learning targets with their students? So, it does provide feedback and input for the schools that we're in. They use that to drive their own professional learning, and it also provides feedback to us at central office about where schools are so we can craft professional development for principals and instructional coaches which we have in all of our schools. 

One other nice thing that we have engaged in this past year with EL is intensive coaching, for schools identified as needing additional support based on disaggregated data and achievement.

We also have EL Education supporting us through professional development where they come out and they meet with our instructional coaches, as well as our building principals to really think about: What are the things that are in the way? What's going well for implementation? And what are the barriers? We engage in some PDSA cycles to problem solve and think about next steps. We do have quite a bit of activities happening around implementation. As support to me, central office, as an executive director of curriculum and instruction and my central office team, we engage in meetings every other week with EL Education that provides us with the opportunity to take that data and think about where we are when we think about whole district implementation.

MUSIC TRANSITION 

Host: You’ve been so intentional about change management in your partnership with EL. Do you have any final thoughts to share with other partners going through this process of change?

Becky: What we have learned, and what we’re still trying to tell our community, is that EL Education is not just about the boxes. It's not just about the curriculum. It's actually about a way of being, it’s a way to ensure that we are having meaningful work for all of our students to engage in, that they're talking in high discourse with each other about things they're learning together, that they're working to push each other in being critical thinkers. For us it’s become a shift, right? It has grounded for Madison our work in equity. Our students see themselves in our materials. But beyond the materials, it's what are those high leverage practices that are just good teaching that provide good engagement for students that students feel seen and are performing at higher levels than they ever had been before.

MUSIC TRANSITION

SOT: Teacher sets up protocol

Host: One of the high leverage practices Becky is talking about is the use of discussion protocols for equity and engagement. Remember those students talking about a book they were reading?

SOT: Student discussion

Host: Let’s hear what students at Black Hawk Middle say about using these discussion protocols that are part of the EL curriculum.  

SOT: Student comment(s) about using protocols

Host: Kate Jorgensen is the instructional coach at Black Hawk Middle. I asked Kate to paint a picture of how things are different at her school since implementing EL.

Kate: I could walk into any ELA classroom during their prep period and likely what I'll see is a team of people sitting down, unpacking assessments, unpacking the texts. looking at the tasks and trying to determine what are the power moments they want students to experience. How are they going to lift up engagement protocols? What's going to be the check for understanding? And that is very exciting.

I really appreciate the performance tasks in EL because they truly give kids an opportunity to synthesize what they've learned in the module and add their own flair, their identity, their artistic creation. They get to do a podcast, they get to do a museum walk. They get to recreate a monster. That is just awesome. And they get really into those performance tasks and it is just a true showcase of everything they've learned. 

I see the engagement protocols as giving students an opportunity to synthesize the things they are reading and writing about. It gives them another opportunity to make connections with a peer, generate their own ideas. They get to engage in a little bit of productive struggle with somebody else when they're talking about a prompt.

Now that we're doing Crew, everybody's experiencing engagement protocols across spaces. So it's not just in ELA anymore. Now it's in Crew. And so we really want it to become like a natural way of how we talk to each other and talk about text. And I do think it's a move of equity. Because if we're only asking one or two kids what their ideas are every time, and it's an adult to student interaction, there's really no power in that. There's more power in the student to student discourse about ideas and about text.

MUSIC TRANSITION

SOT: Students talking about the text – lines of people carrying items

Kate: When I walk into their classroom and the students are talking to each other about the text, they're challenging each other's ideas, they're writing about text. I always get goosebumps. Yes, this is the moment, these are the things we want to see!

SOT: Teacher - How does William prepare to make the windmill using design thinking? You can agree or disagree as long as you respectfully explain… or you can bring in your own piece of evidence or your own thinking.

MUSIC TRANSITION

Host: Kate mentioned Crew– it’s a meeting structure AND schoolwide culture that supports social and emotional well-being AND academic engagement. Crew is happening across Madison, and at Black Hawk Middle, one of the adults leading a Crew of students is the principal, Sue Ablanalp.

Sue: I'm talking from the habits of character, which are cultivated through our Crew, we're looking at the whole child. I have a Crew as a principal. I wanted to be able to experience Crew myself in order to lead the building. And I think that was a really solid mindset I think that I chose it because I started right from the beginning talking to the kids about “Crew, Not Passengers”, we're all working together. And I use the stools, I'm in an art room, so we use stools. And I said, so that's why I'm sitting in the circle with you on a stool. And one day, within a couple weeks of crew, we have responsibilities in the classroom, and somebody set up the stools. One was taller than the other. One of the kids said, Oh, you got to remove that stool. We're all not going to be equal. I thought, wow, they were paying attention to that. They really understand that. And that's  just something that's struck me in thinking about the whole child, how they're realizing that as a principal, when we're sitting in our crew together, we share, and it's very powerful. So I'm seeing huge results within my own Crew. And then today I had an opportunity to walk the building. I just see the power of the circle, working together as a team for the common good of the school. Pretty powerful.

Host: It really is. Besides connecting in Crew circles, what’s helping Black Hawk Middle move through the shift to EL?

Sue: Having those systems in place where teachers meet regularly and look at data student performance and using student work as they begin to unfold what's happening and unpacking what's going on in the classrooms. And so those are, I think, really meaningful discussions. And the beauty that I see is when I go from classroom to classroom, I see that consistency in putting the structures to have those conversations with the teachers around high quality core instruction is really important.

We have to stay steadfast in our commitment to make sure that we are following this curriculum that is aligned, we no longer have the luxury of teachers building their own curriculum. They shouldn't have to be curriculum coordinators. Their job is to teach. If they could spend all of their energy in developing themselves as educators aligned to the EL curriculum, they're going to serve our kids better. They're going to be less frustrated. And they're going to know every single day what to do. As an example of Crew, I know the lessons on Tuesday, Wednesdays, and Thursdays are there for me. I don't have to think about what I'm going to do because they're right there. So I just have to go there and make sure that I'm prepared enough to be able to deliver that.

MUSIC TRANSITION

To see that continuity that we're getting in the ELA Curriculum across most of the environments in our Crew circles in our Crew groups is amazing. Our goal is to get kids feeling safe where they belong so they can academically start improving their own performance and creating goals for themselves. And I think that having Crew as a school-wide process is ultimately going to give us the results that we want.

MUSIC TRANSITION

Host: So far we’ve walked through Madison with district leaders, school leaders, and students to hear about the change of partnering with EL. We’ve heard about bumps in the road and breakthrough results. We’ve heard about the importance of engaging the whole community in the change management process. And we’ve heard what folks are excited to see more of now– equitable talk among kids in classrooms, Crew circles that build belonging, students doing meaningful work that matters to them.

I remember Shanta wanted to hear from parents too, which makes good sense. If we’re talking about a whole child approach, we should get that view into a child that comes from family and home. So let’s talk to a few parents about how their kids are doing since Madison partnered with EL Education.

PARENT COMMENTS

Thomasina - windows and mirrors, sharing books with family, curriculum + character

Alyssa - transitioning off IEP, more than reading it’s who she is, every kid should have this

MUSIC TRANSITION

Host: Remember the book students were talking about at Black Hawk Middle? It’s called The Boy Who Harnessed the Wind, and it’s the true story of a Malawian youth, William, who uses his creativity and resourcefulness to make a machine that generates electricity.

SOT: Student - he read books about it, he learned about it because he used to go to the school

Host: William says: “If you can't fly, run; if you can't run, walk; if you can't walk, crawl. We must encourage those still struggling to keep moving forward.”

I hope you’ve enjoyed walking through change with our friends in Madison, Wisconsin, and learning about how they move forward, together, in partnership with EL Education. Just like the Kindergartener said about syllables, working together as partners to break down the steps of big change helps us all “find the beat”. 

Thank you to all our guests who took us on this journey in Madison–
Dr. Shanta Lightfoot, Cindy Green, Becky Kundert, Kate Jorgensen, and Sue Ablanalp.

Thanks to Black Hawk Middle students who shared their thoughts– Mah’lana, Taraji, Kiki, and Jack, and their teacher, Stephanie Mouser.

And gratitude to Madison parents who shared their stories from home– Thomasina and Allyssa.

I’m your host, Katie Schneider Gumiran.

And special thanks to Marcus Hung, Nate Martz, and Monica Noa. And to EL staff supporting district and school leaders in order to scale three-dimensional and equitable student outcomes. 

If you’d like to learn more about partnership opportunities with EL Education, visit eleducation.org/partner-with-us, or send an email to salesinquiry@eleducation.org