AGAINST THE MACHINE.

Mark and Eric friend talk about AI, humanity's search for meaning, how to think about redemption, and what to do in these strange times. We hope you love this extended episode! (We felt we owed you some studio time! haha) 

Heart, 

Mark and Eric

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Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:00

Hey Texan Rockers, here's a longer episode of Eric and I covering everything from AI to space travel to religion and race in America. And along the way, we do a couple poems, one to percussion, and yeah, it was just good to catch up, so I thought I would just give you the whole conversation. Eric has a new studio set up. He's moved, and uh his studio, Dragonrising Drumming, teaches percussion to uh kiddos in the area, and I just think it's awesome. So that's where we're sitting and recording. I'll try to get you some videos soon. But the problem I've had lately is just editing. I have tons of content from Eric and myself, and then I did a little more uh biblical studies stuff with uh my friend from Truman State, Hillary, and we will we'll be releasing it all over time, but I just wanted you to know we're we're around. I've just been busy, busy, busy working and teaching and and doing lots of things, but um I hope you love this episode, and yeah, we will talk to you soon. Bye.

SPEAKER_00 1:08

Welcome to the text and rock show. Ancient story. Better tomorrow. Let's begin.

SPEAKER_02 1:34

Okay. That's pretty good. Oh my god. So we need to take this new drum set out for expand. What's that? We need to take this new drum set out for expand. Well, one of these days. Not today. It's uh what do you want to play on today? No, we'll do it today. Okay. Well, it's good. We're just doing audio, so you know, like you know, it's a low pressure DV, yeah. Yeah, I've got some new stuff I want to try to, yeah, and I'd rather just read it off of my laptop.

SPEAKER_05 2:22

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 2:22

Because I think I think it's good for Halloween.

SPEAKER_05 2:26

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 2:28

Yeah, it's taking my point. It's Halloween every day, I'm not sure.

SPEAKER_05 2:36

It's Halloween every day. And this thing can hold the phone if you need the home phone thing.

SPEAKER_02 2:42

I'll put it, or yeah, I'll put it, I think. I'm gonna today, yeah. I'm gonna use this, but I'm gonna put the phone over here so that it doesn't catch straight, like face head. It might be over here. I actually have one of those too. I still have some hands, how much for his dribble and which one's a kind of he fizzled out around so I just money? I know it's pretty amazing, and you know, it's like one of those basketball career wasn't gonna go terribly far. You know, and no German stomach then which you know, even the fact that I have to compare myself to the short wear short shorts in the 80s, and again um good to be back rolling, dude. Yeah, I found um I found two like video episodes I never put up too, so I've got the work cut out for me. That's why I thought we would just do audio today.

SPEAKER_03 4:23

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 4:24

Like we did it, we did a couple good out of like episodes. This week was nice. I kind of came out of hibernation and we're gonna tell us about your new drum set.

SPEAKER_05 4:46

What's that?

SPEAKER_02 4:47

Tell us about your new drum set. I did that thing where I pushed play on bubble. It's how I get B-roll. We just talk wherever we are, and there it is. You know. Surprise! Surprise. This looks like Dr. Seuss made it. You know, it does, doesn't it? So, guys, it's red, and all the drums have like these hollow shoots that look like, I don't know, like tuba endings. Yeah. It's pretty sweet. Yeah, but it does look like Dr. Seuss, uh. I never thought of that. Dr. Seuss in the drum business. Okay, bro, so I have some fun new stuff. Yeah. Um, this won't surprise you about me, but I went down a like big rabbit hole researching. I read like the top five books on artificial intelligence and how it might reshape the world economy or the global order.

SPEAKER_04 5:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 5:53

And I started this project called Last Poems on Earth, which is closely akin, intentionally, to Charles Bukowski's collection of poems.

SPEAKER_03 6:06

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_02 6:07

And uh because he's a little bit of a realist too. And anyways, the subtitle is 100 poems against the machines. And I started I started basically writing or no, it's 100 Human Poems versus the Robots. But I like 100 Poems Against the Machines better. I'm gonna change it right now.

SPEAKER_05 6:35

Okay, okay.

SPEAKER_02 6:36

Um, I started writing it because I felt like everyone I was talking to. Hold on, against the machines. Everyone I was talking to was worried about losing their job or their job radically changing because of AI, and no one wanted it. Like no one wanted it at all. And so I was like, Well, who who does want it?

SPEAKER_03 7:01

Right?

SPEAKER_02 7:02

So, um, what I found was people were fine using it for chat GPT, like to answer their dumb questions, you know. Like, who hasn't done that? But they don't like the idea of like the world dynamically changing and all jobs going away and you know, a billion Tesla robots walking the streets. Like, like no one wants that future, as far as I can tell, except like tech bros that watch too many space movies.

SPEAKER_05 7:29

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 7:30

So I started writing on it, right? Uh-huh. And I'll read you the first, I'll just read you the first poem, and then we'll dive into one. But the first the first poem in the whole album is called Chat GPT, and it came from a conversation with my friend Guillaume, who I do Commando Kraut Magawit. Oh, yeah, yeah. He was like French Special Forces, and he's really, really? He's one of those dudes that he's super humble and annoyingly good at everything he does, and he's usually ahead of the curve for like for like just anything, right? So dude um was saying like how dynamically AI was gonna change the world, and I was like, you know, if this if this world does come to pass where humans don't have to work, and everyone's like, What what will we do? I was like, I'll be fine, I'll just make art. Yeah. Like that's what I'll do with my time. That sounds great. And he was like, Oh, Mark, machines can already do art. And I was like, What? And he's like, Yeah, they can write, they can paint, they can produce a picture. And I was like, gee, that is not the point of art. The point of art is the expression of the human soul, naming something beautiful in creation. Yes. I I don't think a machine has a concept of a soul or creation. Or creation, right? And I think that like what I compared it to was just because there are other artists writing poetry, there are a lot of them, and they're a lot better than me. A whole lot of them are a lot better than me, but it doesn't mean I'm gonna stop because it brings me joy. Right. Right? Right. Like exactly. Like you're a damn good drummer, but there are lots of good drummers that have lived in in the world, and you don't do it because you need to be the best. You do it because of how it makes you feel how it makes you feel, that's right. So this is the first poem. Ready? Okay. It says I asked ChatGPT why the void is an answering all my screens. It replied that it could write better poems than me any day of the week. Well, screw you, machine. I defied. Here's another hundred musings versus the robots. Stick that in your instruction manual, RoboFucker. Yeah.

unknown 9:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 9:50

And the big idea is I don't care, I don't care like how good an algorithm is at producing art. It heals my soul to do it, and so I won't stop, right? Yeah, yeah. Anyways. Have you heard like have you heard like people talk non-stop about AI, or do none of your friends care about it?

SPEAKER_05 10:10

Actually, not much.

SPEAKER_02 10:12

Um I just weird. Don't answer that.

SPEAKER_05 10:16

Don't answer that. No, but there there's uh Joy and I were talking to who was it? Oh, uh, actually her and I have been taking voice lessons. You can cut all of this out, by the way.

SPEAKER_02 10:29

No, wait, I can tell you guys have been taking voice lessons.

SPEAKER_05 10:32

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, but our voice teacher said the same thing you just said is that once once life changes and we're all comfortable, then we can have more time to do art and explore and do those things.

SPEAKER_02 10:47

Yeah. Yeah. Do you think what do you think there's like basically a really uncertain decade before anything like that could be possible?

SPEAKER_05 10:59

Probably. It's it's it's probably like anything. There's gonna be some upheaval, there's gonna be people that are loving it, there's gonna be people who are deathly afraid, you know, just like just like anything we do, you know.

SPEAKER_02 11:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 11:13

People were deathly afraid when, you know, slaves were freed. You know, what's this gonna do to the world? You know, uh, that's that's true. Everything we do, like the the women's, you know, when I grew up at younger, women were still playing six-on-six basketball, and back then, I get science, men, whoever, yeah, thought that women couldn't do it and it would be bad for them.

SPEAKER_02 11:41

Did you know my grandmother, Doris, who is shorter than me, she she's passed a long time ago, but she was like five foot zero, and she was an amazing point guard. Yeah. Back when back when you actually took granny shots. Yeah, yeah. You know, like between the legs and shucked it at the hoop. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 12:02

Oh man, that's awesome. Yeah, yeah. So they were wrong. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 12:06

And they couldn't see a future where like you and I would make art together, you know. I mean, exactly. People are just scared of change, maybe.

SPEAKER_05 12:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 12:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 12:15

Alright, alright. Yeah. It really wasn't that long ago when when um a black and white person were it was illegal for them to be married. It was just in the was it the late fifties?

SPEAKER_02 12:28

We talked to the Kuskos about that. Remember when we had dinner about how many people kinda kind of looked at them sideways. Yeah. And I mean, now it's the most normal thing imaginable. Right, exactly. In fact, like one of my favorite National Geographic magazines, you remember I'm obsessed with National Geographic. It's my only magazine subscription, so maybe I'm a little narrow. But they cover a breadth of topics. Yes. Um But um it was talking about how in like 2050 people won't even look like me anymore because we just keep falling in love.

SPEAKER_03 13:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 13:09

You know, like we we find people that don't necessarily look like us at all. And we just love them and we have kids. And like over time, like these stringent ethnicities that people could not imagine breaking down, they just happen naturally. Right. You know? Yeah. It's kind of fascinating. So, um, let's do I have a lot of new stuff.

SPEAKER_04 13:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 13:37

Let's do two poems on banking back to back. Okay. One's called Banking on Crypto, and one's called Things I'm Banking On.

SPEAKER_04 13:47

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 13:48

And I haven't looked at these in a while. We're just gonna dive in and see what we get.

SPEAKER_04 13:52

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 13:53

Alright. Sounds good. So, the banking on crypto poem goes like this. You ready?

SPEAKER_03 14:01

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_02 14:01

The pain in my sciatica lets me know I'm not digital. I earned my muscle spasms deadlifting more than I should, like a red badge of courage for being human, not humanoid. I remember a decade ago, I watched experimental robots being developed by major car companies. Some of them were practical. They painted, worked on the assembly line, or cleaned up. One in particular was made to look human and was doing pre-programmed backflips through an obstacle course. All of the researchers smiled at their great accomplishment. I was horrified, and asked my brother-in-law, a city engineer and scientific mind, Jesse, just how fucked are we? He laughed, sipped his beer, and said, Oh, absolutely fucked, in way, way less time than any of us want to admit. All I could think was Super Soldier. At the time I could not even get my mind around a race to superintelligence and constant updating, and machines we programmed lying to us for self-preservation, or just to be efficient, or kids given the go-ahead by Chat GPT to take their own lives sad and alone. It was all too out of a Ray Bradbury book to take seriously, or even comprehend its implications. Fast forward ten years. And I've listened to one computer science genius after another who walked away from AI development companies. They are each trying to not only warn us but encourage us to take to the streets in protest. They implore us that we are five years from no jobs, and there is perhaps a 20% chance humanity makes it out of this alive as a species. All because technocrats giving lectures about the Antichrist or naming children from their modern-day harem a single letter are competing to be the human who goes down in history for achieving singularity. Just to be the winner of the race to human destiny and doom. I could not write a better sci-fi novel than this dystopian reality if I tried. And I'm told we are living in an assimilation, anyways, clearly governed by cruel or inferior demiurges. The scientists who say such things do not know the classics. And that they're just parroting Gnostic mystery religions long since buried. But in any case, I disagree. This is not the fault of some creator. But humans as creators are to blame. We make our gods and then we worship them, and they have chosen G-O-D, Gold, Oil, and Dollar, as their god, over and against stopping a mad science experiment. Probably because they are all banking on crypto. That's awesome. So this was written, it kind of speaks for itself, but it was written after listening to interviews with Peter Thiel, uh, the crazy technocrat that became obsessed with the Antichrist and you know, thought he had all the answers. And uh Elon Musk, who literally named a child X, uh, talking about why it was they were developing AI over and against all of these original architects of artificial intelligence that were saying, no, you need to stop. Like, and the argument that the scientists that came up with AI say again and again is that if we reach a singularity where a system is updating and improving itself constantly, ten times a day, a hundred times a day, a million times a day, its knowledge will surpass humanity so greatly that it will become self-sufficient. It's like it's like the Lost in Space robot, gone gone rogue, right? And so at the end of the day, I joked that they were all choosing gold, oil, and dollar and banking on crypto because that's what's driving it, is is profits, right? Right, right. But I think the general pushback is who's gonna buy any of the shit you're selling if if you eliminate jobs and profit so much of the the wealth gap continues to increase. Right. You know? Is that all that's just wild? How does that hit you?

SPEAKER_06 18:50

I don't want to think about it.

SPEAKER_05 18:52

No, that's what I always do is force people to think about it. Exactly. Yeah, man, it's nuts to think about because where where is the thing when you talk about something that's improving, it's uh what does that mean?

SPEAKER_02 19:10

It means that it's constantly optimizing over and over and over again.

SPEAKER_05 19:17

Right, but what does that mean?

SPEAKER_02 19:18

It's optimizing in which direction speed towards a mastery of all human knowledge and culture.

SPEAKER_05 19:26

So will it will it then go, this is what we need to do We don't know.

SPEAKER_02 19:31

And we don't know if efficiency will cost humanity. Imagine that I fed there's the famous like paperclip argument. Imagine I told an artificially intelligent system that was constantly optimizing that I wanted to make as many paperclips as possible, and it concluded that it can make more pot paperclips faster without humanity in the equation. Right? And so there's like any number of ways that they think that everything could go rogue, but imagine Imagine in Elon Musk's contract to make millions and millions of humanoid robots that look like us that have a constantly updating software like Tesla's cars, yeah. And they're optimizing for the best world possible. Well, honestly, modern humanity is one of the most dangerous things for the planet. So what happens? So what happens? We don't know. Right. And it is is it like uh is it like that time we all freaked out about Y2K and then it didn't matter? And then it didn't or is it like a serious existential threat and we just don't know? Right.

SPEAKER_05 20:44

Um Yeah, because you when when I don't know, I guess from an artist perspective, because people are always saying better, better. I don't know what better is. Yeah, what's that mean? What's that mean?

SPEAKER_02 20:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 20:58

So like which is it better to help us and and and and our nutrition and the way we treat each other? Is that better?

SPEAKER_02 21:08

Yeah, that's a great question.

SPEAKER_05 21:09

It's better to me, but is it better to that damn thing?

SPEAKER_02 21:12

Yeah, that's a great question. I mean, where does where does optimal human nutrition and energy and quality of life factor in if the machines are fed productive goals? Right?

SPEAKER_05 21:27

Um yeah, right, it's fed these things, but if it's constantly upgrading and thinking better, isn't it gonna eventually go, well, that's the wrong way to go?

SPEAKER_02 21:41

Yeah, that's a great question. Um here's why I w here's why I thought it would be funny to kick these poems around with you too.

SPEAKER_03 21:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 21:49

You love Star Trek more than like anything in the world. And in many ways, it's a space age era idea. Like, what could humanity become? How could we have the most gravity possible? And how could we overcome our differences to be beautiful and noble as a species and explore? Yeah. When you were growing up as a kid, and even today, why did you love Star Trek? I want to see if we get where I think we'll get.

SPEAKER_05 22:23

Yeah?

SPEAKER_02 22:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 22:24

I loved it because of the way the way the world was in, and I tell Joy all the time, like when I see her daughter coming out of school, all these different shapes and sizes and colors of kids are hugging each other and telling them they love each other, miss each other, and whatever. When I was growing up, it wasn't like that. Right. Not only that, I hate to say this, but as I've been thinking through my life and remembering things, um, being in first or second grade, one of the you know kids on the playground is throwing around the N-word and stuff.

SPEAKER_01 23:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 23:00

But you they couldn't even get in trouble because that's how society was. Well, that's I shouldn't use that word, but that's who you are, you know. Or you even had a teacher, you know, my my dad's a math professor at the university. No, he probably's a janitor, but you know, but that's the way they didn't believe you?

SPEAKER_02 23:21

That's like what your dad did. Yeah. That's crazy, man.

SPEAKER_05 23:25

Yeah, but that's the way the you know the the thing was. You know, you you'd see it on TV. You've never seen a person a black person as a doctor or a lawyer, or it's so rare.

SPEAKER_02 23:38

Was Star Trek one of the first shows that was interracial? Actually, it was the very first show that had an interracial kiss. Really?

SPEAKER_05 23:46

Yeah. Was it Kirk and I think it must have been Kirk, of course, because he was kissing green and blue people.

SPEAKER_02 23:55

Yeah, sometimes. Yeah, I mean, I think so. For you, it was seeing humanity live in harmony together, right? Yeah. And it was the beauty of those human ideals realized, right?

SPEAKER_05 24:16

Yeah. Yeah, to be able to walk down the street like the that show that you turned me on to Reservoir.

SPEAKER_02 24:23

Reservoir Dogs. Yeah. Or Reservation Dogs. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 24:26

You know, I thought the same thing as this kid is walking through the the alley trying to get away from the kids in the car or on bikes, whatever they were. I went through that same thing. In fact, a lot of times when I was walking home, yeah, I go through the alley so I could put rocks in my pocket so I could have some weapons. Just in case you had to do that. Just in case, yeah. So yeah, watching that show brought back a lot of things. So Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 24:51

Yeah. It's interesting because the the premise of Star Trek is that this great exploration and stepping out is only possible because humanity found a way to overcome their differences. Right. Right. Now, in the lore of Star Trek, is there like there was a great war before that happened, correct? Yeah. Am I crazy?

SPEAKER_05 25:13

Yep, nope, that's it.

SPEAKER_02 25:15

I'm gleaning this from our conversations over years. Not that I've done my homework. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 25:21

Yeah, but yeah, that's yeah, some big gigantic war, and then people realize, hey, we gotta stop this. This is ridiculous. We're killing each other. Wouldn't that be nice?

SPEAKER_02 25:30

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So what scares me is that Star Trek and shows like that harness technology towards the betterment of humanity. I feel I fear the AI revolution looks a little bit more like the Star Wars Empire. Does that make sense? You know? Right. And these tech bros are a lot more like Lord Helmet than Lord Hm.

SPEAKER_05 26:06

Oh god, that's a great show.

SPEAKER_02 26:08

But I do, I think that, I think that the fundamental question we have to ask ourselves is what would human thriving together look like? And no one seems to care about that question. Like, no one seems to ask. Like, what would quality living for all of us together be? You know? What would it look like to live and die in harmony with walkable local communities that were producing their own food well and responsibly? And third spaces where we could gather, like beyond just one another's houses, community centers and coffee shops. Like, what does it look like to build neighborhoods built on trust and relationship and sincerity? Everything is going the way of work 40 years at a job you hate for the profit of one or two people. And those people are even developing technologies to eliminate even that need for you. And so then what happens? Like, I listened to I listened to one ex-Google AI exec that quit because he said what we're building is terrifying. And he he argued that the technocrats that are really building these things have a philosophy that people like you and me are the feeders, they call us the feeders. We're basically just like dumb pets that have to be fed and sustained so that they can build what they want to build. And a lot of them believe not in democracy but in basically a technocrat making greater good decisions for the collective. And so governments of countries and these kinds of things become a side thing that they have to get around to build what they're building. That's pretty terrifying to me.

SPEAKER_04 28:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 28:12

And so I really do. I think they've chosen their god, and I I rate their god as G period O period D, gold oil, and dollar. It shows up in a lot of my poetry. And I I think that that's what's behind this great science experiment of progress. And the danger is that that science experiment can outgrow its maker.

SPEAKER_04 28:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 28:41

You know, it can get it can get off the rails. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 28:45

So I don't know.

SPEAKER_02 28:47

Wanna try this one out? Sure. Okay. I should uh grab a drum sticker too. It's a little longer, so pace yourself. Hey, I have the drumsticks by me. Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_03 28:56

Yeah. That's all I got.

SPEAKER_05 29:00

That's it. And it is.

SPEAKER_02 29:06

Oh man. I wanna see. Whatever you do, pace it a little quicker because I want to see how long it runs. I'm gonna time it because I want to see if we lose this one, I wanna see how long it runs. Okay. I'm on the fence of bringing like very happy, feel good, enjoy friends and family poems versus face milters for our next gig, and I don't I haven't decided yet.

SPEAKER_04 29:38

Yeah. Okay.

SPEAKER_02 29:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 29:39

Alright.

SPEAKER_02 29:40

Just tell me if I'm going too far. The pain in my sciatica lets me know that I'm in a digital and I earned my muscle spending deadlifting more than I should. Like a red badge of footage for being human, not humanoid. I remember a decade ago, I watched experimental robots being developed by major car companies. Some of them were practical. They painted, worked up the assembly line, cleaned up. One in particular was made to look like a human and was doing pre-programmed bank flips doing obstacles for us. Smiled their great accomplishments. I was horrified. And that's my brother-in-law, a city engineer and scientific mom, Jesse, just have fucked up with me. He went up and sipped his beard and said, Oh, I'm absolutely fucked in way, way less time than any of us wanted to admit. And I stared straight ahead because all I could think of was a super soldier. At the time I could not even get my mind around a race to super intelligence and constant updating the machines we programmed lime dust for self-preservation or just to be efficient, or kids given the go-ahead by Chat PPT to take their own lives sad and alone. It was all too out of the late rabbit book to take it seriously, or even comprehend its implications. But fast forward 10 years and have listened to one computer science genius after another who walked away from AI development companies, they each are trying to not only warn us but encourage us to take to the streets in protest. They implore us that we are five years from no jobs and there is perhaps a 20% chance humanity makes it out of this alive as a species. All because technocrats giving lectures about the enterprise or naming the children from their modern-day hero on a single letter are being to be the human who goes down the history of achieving singularity. Just to be the winner of the race to human destiny and doom. I could not write a better sci-fi novel than this dystopian reality if I declined it. And I'm told we're living in a simulation, anyways, clearly governed by cruel or inferior emergence, the scientists who say since things do not know the domestics though, and then they are just inheriting Gnostic mystery religion long since buried. But in any case, I disagree. This is not the fault of some creator, but humans as creators are the ones to blame. We make the gods and then we worship them. And they have chosen DOT, gold, oil, and dollar over and again stopping a math science experiment. Probably because they're banking of crypto. I'm not sure if I care.

SPEAKER_03 33:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 33:35

I think they'll get it in ten years. Yeah, yeah, probably. Is that what those guys are talking about? Yeah. So I followed it like back to back with things I'm banking on. And it's uh it's just like a quick poem. I'll read it. We don't even have to play with it. Okay. It's just a quick poem about things I'm banking on in my heart over and against this mess.

SPEAKER_04 34:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 34:02

So it says, I'm banking on the renewal of all things into humanity, which steps into its integrated truth. I'm banking on the greatest story ever told, and believe that if the metaphysics fail, the ethics will not. I'm banking on forgiving you along with myself, and fully owning how reckless and hurtful we all can be, and I'm banking on redemption, timeless wisdom, and the faith of our fathers who lived to see such times with different names and places and spaces. Wow. Yeah. Wow. That's like how I that's like how I cope not just with this problem, but like the human problem.

SPEAKER_03 35:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 35:00

Um I'm banking on the renewal of all things. Not in a weird apocalyptic faith way, like the the world ends and heaven is better. Like in a possibility that together people like you and me can actually fix this place and make it beautiful for our kids. Yeah. That kind of stuff. Yeah. Right?

SPEAKER_04 35:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 35:24

Um, and that's why it says I'm banking on the renewal of all things and a humanity that steps into its integrated truth. And what I mean by that is that we're integral beings, we're body and soul, and it both matters, and integrated in the second sense, that we have to take everything horrible from the past along with us and look it in the eyes and do fucking better.

SPEAKER_04 35:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 35:52

Does that make sense? Yeah, absolutely. So we need a full integration of truth. Right? We just saw in the headlines, like Trump got in trouble from a justice who said, It's wrong, illegal, and you need to undo it for taking paintings about slavery out of the White House. But that was his attempt, like Trump's at just sweeping the Achilles heel of America under the rug, like it never happened. And the problem is That's almost all that matters for our ability to live in love with one another again. Does that make sense?

SPEAKER_05 36:36

Absolutely. And let me not to stomp on anything.

SPEAKER_03 36:40

You're good, man.

SPEAKER_05 36:41

But I think in in and it it pains me that we keep missing the the the the the lies that started the country. I don't I shouldn't say it like that, but yeah. Yeah, the indigenous people, the people that were here, you know, can can we start with that lie and the whole Thanksgiving thing was a massacre, not a not a you know, can we start there and then slowly move forward? I mean, because part part of the the problem is we're we're just like throwing a dart and let's start right here. This is comfortable. Yeah, you know, or maybe it's not comfortable, but I think you know, let's go back to the beginning and see see what what terrible things were done and and all those lies and all the things that were hidden then, and let's start just doing better.

SPEAKER_02 37:40

That's a great point. Do you know what I think people miss about what you just said, too, is that the past really hurts. Yeah, but forgiveness really feels good. Like, forgiveness isn't really possible until you've owned just how horrific the past was. Yeah. I mean, you can't you really it means nothing to say it's in the past or we're over it unless you really know what it was. It was. You know. Absolutely. And we've said that so many times over the years, but that that is the Achilles heel of our country. Is that a giant segment of the population does not know how to apologize or make it right, or isn't even thinking about doing so.

SPEAKER_05 38:32

Yeah. Um, I didn't do it, you know. Yeah. You know, it's if I had a roommate all the time, we would be, you know, getting in my car and say, hey man, there's some trash on the on the pick pick that up. He's like, I didn't do that. I said, but we live here.

SPEAKER_01 38:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 38:50

We live here.

SPEAKER_01 38:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 38:52

And if we just let it go, then it'll just keep piling up and piling up and piling up. Yeah, you bet. You bet. Right. So it doesn't matter who did it, let's start cleaning it up. That's a great point.

SPEAKER_02 39:04

Yeah. Do you think, too, like people underestimate how complicit we all are, myself included. I mean, the claim that everyone wants to make is if I could go back in time, I wouldn't have been that way. Right. I just, I always believe that if you don't stick your neck out for the truth now, you wouldn't have been. You wouldn't have been. You would have been terrified.

SPEAKER_05 39:33

Yeah. Yeah. And I don't blame anybody because it was horrible the things that they would do to you. Well, like now.

SPEAKER_02 39:41

Do you remember? Okay, so my favorite, um politicians have led me down so much in my life that I don't know that I'll ever trust another one.

SPEAKER_04 39:54

Right.

SPEAKER_02 39:55

My favorite moment in the history of my country in my lifetime is small. It's not a war, it's not a it's not some glorious celebrated thing. It's when an African-American Harvard professor was hassled by campus security for going into his own home, and Obama sat down with the Syriac security guard and the professor and had a beer with them. Yeah, that's my favorite moment in my entire life in the political history of America. And I think it's one of the most important moments that I've ever lived through, and I felt like it didn't even register to a lot of people. But it was like it's one of the only times in my life where I feel like a political leader said, There's a way forward, let me show you. I don't see that anymore. I see them covering up mistakes or saying, I didn't make a mistake, or I wouldn't do that. I mean, literally, last week, President Trump's office put up on his feed the Obamas as apes, and his response was not that's terrible, and I'm sorry, and it will never happen again. It was I didn't make a mistake. What the hell is that? Yeah. Yeah. So I think you have two very stark examples of paths we can go in there as a community. Like we've really need to get to a point where we understand people in our country as family to some degree. You know, not everyone. I know there are weirdos out in the world, but some of my uncles are weird. Um but but I I think uh yeah. Yeah. I think that's integrated truth, though, right there. Like that's that's Obama understanding what the what what the horrific past of America is and how we've gotten ourselves here. Fully looking it in the eye and saying, how do I meet both sides? Right and sit down with them at a table. It's pretty incredible, isn't it? Yeah. I I do, I think that's the greatest moment of leadership I've ever witnessed.

SPEAKER_05 42:21

Yeah, I absolutely. Um you're telling me Trump would never do that?

SPEAKER_02 42:26

No, I would. Sorry. Sorry. Um honestly, like, uh Yeah, I just have so much respect for that. And I'm you know I don't like to respect political either.

SPEAKER_05 42:46

Well, but yeah, when are we gonna get to that point where we stop trying to one up all the time, you know, or or making it even, you know, you hit me in the face, so I'm gonna hit you in the face, and that makes it even.

SPEAKER_03 43:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 43:04

You know, but doesn't really solve anything. Maybe you feel better, I don't know, but maybe if you go, hey, why are you hitting me in the face? Can we talk about it?

SPEAKER_02 43:16

Um I just put up I just put up a fourth blog post uh in the Faith in Doubt series, and it was simply uh called How to Have Faith. And the argument I was making was that essentially I didn't state it like this because it pisses people off when I say things like this, but this was the big idea, is that faith is not belief in dumb magic impossible things. It faith is not belief in the Bible or a sacred text that humans wrote. Faith is a fundamental belief that the energy behind the cosmos that tells yourselves what to do and fires the synaptic. In your brain and spins planets, like the animating energy of the world is fundamentally good and is the source of uh love. And of course there's evil, and of course there's chaos, but faith is the belief that that energy is fighting against it.

SPEAKER_04 44:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 44:17

And I want to join God or source or whatever in that.

SPEAKER_04 44:22

In that.

SPEAKER_02 44:23

Right, right. But I wrote that one of the fundamental reasons I have faith is that I think, like from my Christian tradition that I grew up in what Jesus asks people to do is the hardest thing you will ever do and the most healing thing you can ever do. And that is actually to forgive an enemy.

unknown 44:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 44:49

Um nothing could be harder. Nothing could be more beautiful or healing. Right. Right. Um but that's what I that's I say. I'm banking on forgiving you along with myself. Yeah. That's owning that I have a part to of the blame too. And that's not insignificant. Um in the beautiful tradition of the rabbis, they would comment that sin, like the idea of missing the mark that that God wants you to do in the world, is not as simple as doing something you know is wrong. It's also failing to do something you know is right. And if if we if we know in our heart that better relationships are possible and a better world is possible, or that forgiveness, as hard as it might be, can make things better, the rabbis would say it's just as big a sin, it's just which it's just an archery term. It's just as much of missing the mark of like the ideal of divinity to not take action when you know you could. When you know you could. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 46:11

Yep.

SPEAKER_02 46:14

Yeah. And I think that I think this last line is what it's really about for me. I'm banking on redemption, timeless wisdom, and the faith of our fathers. And I think you could argue that's across all wisdom traditions.

SPEAKER_04 46:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 46:32

Just because Judeo-Christianity is my heart language, I think you'll find I think you'll find similar themes if you pull on the threads of any of the great traditions that have helped people for thousands of years to sort out what it is to be human. So the timeless wisdom and the faith of our fathers who have lived to see such times with different names and places and spaces. Right? The reason Star Wars is such a good movie is that it's always true. There's always an empire of power that wants to crush good people, and there's always a resistance.

SPEAKER_04 47:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 47:10

That kind of thing.

SPEAKER_04 47:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 47:12

You know?

SPEAKER_04 47:13

Yeah. Yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_02 47:17

Yeah. Cool. Well, we covered a lot of ground today.

SPEAKER_04 47:20

Wise you are.

SPEAKER_02 47:21

No. A collector I am. I've been really interested in the collections of the good people in my life lately. Yeah. And what I mean is, you and I have talked about uh wisdom being like you pick up something here or there that shines, and eventually you have this collection of ways of being in the world, and not everyone will even understand why you picked up what you did.

SPEAKER_04 47:54

Right.

SPEAKER_02 47:54

But it it's how you it's how you got by and what you learned and how you operate.

SPEAKER_04 48:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 48:00

I've been really fascinated lately by the wisdom of the good people of my life that they've picked up and where they got it from. So I'm not wise, I'm a collector.

SPEAKER_05 48:11

You're a collector. I like it. I like it.

SPEAKER_02 48:13

All right, that's a good one for today.

SPEAKER_05 48:15

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 48:46

The Text and Ruck Show is the creative work of Mark Schaefer and Eric Madison. Don't forget to subscribe so you know when new episodes drop. If the show adds value to your life, please consider leaving them a review or sharing Text Androck with a friend. You can explore other Text and Druck digital productions or contact Mark and Eric by simply clicking the link in the show notes.

SPEAKER_02 49:28

It'll be really fun to do the man.