[00:00:00] The Northern Power Women podcast for your career and your life. No matter what business you're in.  

[00:00:06] Simone Roche: Hello and welcome to another episode of our, We Power On season of the Northern Power Women podcast. I'm your host Simone Roche. Every week, I'm joined by someone amazing from our Northern Power Women community who is doing truly amazing work. 

[00:00:20] And my guest this week is Leyla Tindall, who is the Managing Director of Robert Half, the executive search organisation. She's also was the founding Manager Director of Tindall Perry Partnerships. Leyla has over 20 years experience and has built up an extensive network and has an in-depth knowledge of recruitment expertise. 

[00:00:42] It's highly valued by executive and non-executive directors, which I'm sure we will get into shortly because you must be very busy at the moment and alongside all of this, she has joined the Northern Power Women Power List 2022. Welcome Leyla! How are you?  

[00:00:57] Leyla Tindall: I'm very well, thank you, Simone. Thank you for having me. 

[00:00:59] Simone Roche:  Do you know what? It's great. We've been talking for so long. We mainly have very last minute WhatsApp conversations or texts, or, you know, can you do this? Can you do this? And we, we never got into a room, I think until we got to the awards. And then subsequently from that, it was a couple of weeks ago when you kindly invited me to a, a report launch, which we'll talk about in a short while down, down in London. We have to go all the way to London to meet up. It's crazy. Isn't it?  

[00:01:25] Leyla Tindall: The Northern Power Women meet in London. On tour, on tour. Exactly.  

[00:01:28] Simone Roche: And both running for trains at the end of the night. It's just, it is just how we roll. You have had a hugely successful career in recruitment. What led you into the industry and, and what has kept you there? 

[00:01:40] Leyla Tindall: Well, I think firstly, thank you for the flattery of the word successful. I mean, I still feel like I'm learning when you're dealing with people, careers, their lives, it still feels like every day is a learning day. Probably one of the things that's kept me in recruitment for so long and loving it. How did I get there? Like a lot of people in recruitment, I, I fell into it. Recruitment as an industry was when I started 20 plus years ago was still a growing industry. With somewhat patchy reputation found that I was really good at dealing with people. I love dealing with people. Fairly self confident, good communicator, good listener. 

[00:02:18] And it was just something, I had a real interest in. I had a near miss with studying psychology at university and opted for something else in the end. And so that interest in people development, career development. Just really interested me. So I had the opportunity to go in house Andersen Consulting, Accenture, as it is today, worked with KPMG, doing internal recruitment there, then joined an agency and I never looked back. 

[00:02:45] Simone Roche: And what, what keeps you there? You know, you talked about the people factor, things are really changing aren't they at the moment? 

[00:02:50] Leyla Tindall: I think it's still the passion for being connected to people. I am the kind of person that gets a lot of energy from being with people. I have a natural curiosity [00:03:00] and interest in people. 

[00:03:01] There is nothing to this day, more fulfilling than offering phone, making that phone call to offer someone a job that they really, really want and sharing the good news that they've got it. And having worked on the journey with them through that interview process, coaching, helping them through an interview process and actually indeed looking for the right job for them, at a certain point in their career. 

[00:03:27] And working with someone, it's a very personal, actually quite intimate thing to do. You partner with someone for a period of time, at a point in their life. Sometimes they come because they're unhappy in their current role. It's having huge ramifications elsewhere in their life. You know, they've been travelling a lot. They're working long hours. The money's not right. They're feeling undervalued. So partnering with someone at that point in their life in their career and working with them, coaching, advising, and then exploring a new opportunity that then ultimately completely reinvigorates them. And again has really positive impact on their life. 

[00:04:02] I find really fulfilling and I still get a lot of joy out of doing it. And the other side is working with companies. You know, I've now since placed people early in their career or management teams or whole teams of people, and the company's gone on to do great things and you kind of sit back and watch these management teams work together. The companies putting people together and watching them come together and grow something is again, I find it incredibly fulfilling.  

[00:04:31] Simone Roche: I can't imagine is that feeling, isn't it, when that person picks up that phone, they've probably been sat by the phone all day and you've got that great news. It must be amazing. You must feel like you literally are spreading like magic dust over them. So it's, it is brilliant.  

[00:04:43] We've seen, there's a massive shortage of talent right now. And I think the, the phrase that is out there is, is this is being called the Great Resignation. So it's even more important that companies are, you know, recruiting in the right way and their cultures are good. And what can companies do to both attract the, the emerging talent or even the retraining talent, and then also, what can they do to retain that talent. So it's two completely different things. Isn't it to, to attract and then keep?  

[00:05:12] Leyla Tindall: So let's talk, you asked me first about attracting talent, being competitive, being standing out at the moment. You know, there's a lot of noise everywhere. There's a lot of recruitment activity going on, depending on, you know, the sector, the location, the size of the business. 

[00:05:27] There's there's a few things and it depends which talent pool you're trying to access. The key things that we are finding at the moment is let's, let's talk about hybrid and remote working. So in all the surveys that we've been doing consistently at Robert Half, since 2020 remote, hybrid and flexible working are coming up consistently as the top or in the top three of what candidates are looking for in a company. If you haven't as a business, updated your policies around that and shaped those policies as to what that looks like for individual team, individuals or teams that needs to happen very quickly. And you need clarity around that in terms of what you are offering, why you can or can't offer certain hybrid or remote working policies or structures. 

[00:06:13] People just need clarity. They're seeking clarity around it, but it's got to be there in some shape or form. Salaries need to remain competitive. I think that's been a challenge for some businesses, particularly sectors that have really struggled through the pandemic, but you know, as competitive as you can make it I think we're starting to see a levelling off. 

[00:06:30] It has to, you know, we are starting to talk around kind of cooling off M and A communities are talking. So I think there will be a, a levelling out but you know, the package has to be competitive and non-financial benefits are really key, really, really important. The new generations of people coming through value non-financial benefits as much as financial benefits. 

[00:06:52] And then that dovetails into my final piece of advice, which is having your, your values, policies and your story about profit for good, ESG, contribution. Making contribution to the planet, doing business for good around that. That's, that's got to be there as well, because that's what people are also looking for. 

[00:07:12] Simone Roche: And you talked about that clarity, and I think we did a piece of research last year with Teeside University. It was ongoing research really, and that, that, that was one of the key traits of good leadership was being clear and being very transparent about what you are as a leader, but equally, this is how it translates through into companies. 

[00:07:29] Doesn't it? It's, it's, don't just take your COVID warning off your, your website, but really be intentional about making the change and updating it. Right? 

[00:07:37] Leyla Tindall: That's absolutely right. And I think a lot of businesses and a lot of sectors are going through a transition of coming out of the pandemic where we, you know, a lot of companies had to be and leaders had to be really internally focused. 

[00:07:49] They had to literally kind of batten down hatches, look after employees, look after the finances, the cash flow, you know, it was very internally focused. And then as we moved through it, there was this uncertainty and this return to normality that kept getting stalled, stalled, stalled. And as we're coming out the other side, you know, a lot of things have changed for people. 

[00:08:08] People's individual circumstances, you know, families, illnesses. Job change, you know, all sorts of disruption that as individuals in society that we've been through and continue to face. Leaders you're right. Leaders need to be transparent, honest, authentic, and clear about where their business is at. If you have struggled as a business with certain things or issues that have affected your business. Just be honest about it. People appreciate honesty, transparency, and authenticity. You know, we look at leadership traits and how they kind of trend every year, 2020 and 2021 of course, empathy was up there. 

[00:08:46] Empathy is still required and it's almost become something that people just accept is, is now there that we used to look at leadership as you know, strong leaders, strong, tall men, deep voices, you know, gravitas word is something I don't use as someone who's an advocate of female leadership. Because it's a word that we know that for example, female leaders will not apply to, if they say gravitas in this person requires gravitas, it's associated with men. That's moving on. We've evolved from that. And empathy is, is almost a pre-requisite. But clarity now, being clear, setting out expectations again and starting to extend those timers for employees, suppliers, customers, new hires. The clarity is needed to, I think to help leaders, you know, need to do that, to help businesses continue to move forward, which plays into having clarity then helps people or helps the people hiring to be clear about where the business is at today and where it's going and its journey and its story to in, in order to attract and hire new people into that.  

[00:09:46] Simone Roche: You talk about, you know, one of the reasons or one of the key things for attracting and also retaining was about having the, the non-financial benefits. So at the moment, you know, a few weeks ago, there's a, a huge trial isn't there, which is there's a trial of the four day week that is being undertaken by quite a significant amount of organisations. 

[00:10:06] But it also is being introduced outside of that trial more than ever before. What’s your take on this from a recruitment perspective?  

[00:10:13] Leyla Tindall: I'm going to be a bit controversial here. I'm a bit worried about compressing five days into four, actually for a number of reasons. Again, it's around clarity. Right? 

[00:10:23] So are we saying that you get to keep your five day week salary, but then you have to work a 50 hour week in four days or a 40 hour week in four days. That's a 10 hour day. So where does that leave people who have become accustomed to working the five day week, but being able to pick up their kids at three o'clock dip out for an hour. 

[00:10:42] Come back at four log on again, it's become acceptable now to be on a Teams call. And, you know, your kid comes in and says, oh, where's this mum? Can I have a snack? You know, I got, I have that all the time. I might be on a Teams call internally or externally at five o'clock. Someone pops the head around the door. 

[00:10:57] We got any orange juice left? Yes, darling. It's in the fridge. Sorry about that. So we were just talking about this and you carry on, you know, that's become completely normal. So, where does that lead those people? Do they, are they expected to log on at eight and work until six or seven is one of those days at home that's quite an intense working week actually, and life and business doesn't always happen on your day off on a Friday or, you know, I am a bit wary about it, particularly at leadership level. 

[00:11:23] So one of the things we heard about at the Hidden Truth report, I spoke about Katie Bickerstaffe, who has been announced a few weeks ago now as the new co CEO of Marks & Spencer's group PLC on a four day week, because she wanted to be a great mum and spend time with her children. She's on a four day week salary, but she will probably work on her fifth day. 

[00:11:45] She's got flexibility on a four day, week salary so that she could, but she is likely to be doing things on her fifth day, because as the CEO of Marks and Spencer's PLC, that's just how it's going to be. And I think people at leadership accept that. I think we've got to be very careful about the boundaries of what that will look like. 

[00:12:03] So I think that's something for HR and for hirers to work on it's I think hiring these days is a bit of a minefield, to be honest for companies. We've come out the other side of pandemic where it's become very employee led, candidate led, candidates make demands and candidates say what they want employees having to offer things. 

[00:12:21] In the hopes that they will get people through the door and to attract and retain them and candidates are making the, employees are making the demands. I think that's quite a hard place to be as an employer. And you're trying to be flexible, inclusive, cater to everybody's needs. It's complex actually to manage that for a company. 

[00:12:39] And I feel for companies, clarity, clarity, clarity, good policies, talking about things up front, setting expectations and managing teams, managing everybody in teams. So everyone feels that they have equity. These are all important things to, to think about. 

[00:12:56] Simone Roche: It is it's definitely something to watch. And how will that impact on [00:13:00] gender pay gap? 

[00:13:00] If you've got, you've got your pay, but then you've got this, this non-financial things, you know? So it is you, you said it's, it's a whole kind of minefield and you just refer to the, the Hidden Truth report that we were at a few weeks ago that you were hosting, which monitors the gender and ethnic minority representation on FTSE. All Share Boards which is, All Share Boards are those companies outside of the FTSE 350 and the report calls for ongoing and deeper scrutiny across listed companies to give a true picture of the UK and the wonderful Fiona Hathorn who is the co-founder and chief exec of Women On Boards. Used the phrase, "Catch up and catch quick". 

[00:13:35] How can we all, shift the dial, move to shift the dial and create that real change and that level playing field when we're already in a minefield, how can we do that intentionally?  

[00:13:46] Leyla Tindall: So, first of all, I think that people from ethnically diverse backgrounds and females are in an environment now where there are so many more opportunities available that is fantastic. Hidden Truth report, Women Leaders review, Hampton Alexander review before that, all these reviews and reports have opened up the stage and allowed people to step onto the stage front and centre and, and opened up these opportunities. That is amazing progress. And that's happened in the last 10 to 12 years. Fantastic. Now where we're at is that the companies that are Fiona describes as the lagards, who haven't done anything that they haven't had to, because no one has been shining a light on their progress. 

[00:14:31] Some of those companies actually have genuine reasons for not being able on task. Some of them are struggling. They might, it might be due to location or sector, and they're just simply aren't you know, the candidate pool available to them. They're not particularly appealing in terms of where they're at. You know, people, if they're having a choice are choosing to go to, you know, fast growing companies or companies in this, you know, there's a lot more, more businesses and therefore certain candidate population in the south versus the, you know, Scotland, for example. 

[00:14:59] So they they're dealing with those types of demographic issues, but there are things that companies can do. I think taking a really good look at your own values your own current board, the language that you are using, what you are offering, are you really welcoming to those candidates? If, if you were a, a female Asian candidate and you were being asked to interview at a fifth generation family engineering business in Yorkshire, for example, that have traditionally all had that traditionally had an all white male board. 

[00:15:33] What adjustments are you making as that business to show that you are making a change and accommodating someone coming in to that environment as a new person?  

[00:15:44] Simone Roche: It's coming out your comfort zone, isn't it. You've got to come out of that comfort zone. You've got to like you say, look at yourself. It all starts with you when you, as the leader or you as the board and, I think. 

[00:15:53] It's got to be, you've got to be intentional with your actions. You can't, you know, there's no tick box in this. It takes hard work, but it takes you to be deliberate in and that's why we need, we talked about leadership a lot in this, you need that ongoing, you know, that clarity and that leadership and that empathy of people's lived experience and changing your board structures and intent your businesses. 

[00:16:14] You've got to lean in and crack on is what I would say.  

[00:16:17] Leyla Tindall: Absolutely right. And I, I think, I think leaders and particularly chairs are very influential in this area. I think chairs need to continue to learn where, where I have seen change and where companies have been able to make that switch and make that change and, and attract and hire successfully. And on-board those people successfully and allow them to make a contribution. When I say ‘them’ I'm talking about candidates, gender, and ethnic and diverse backgrounds to the current board and of course trickles down to the rest of the company. They are the ones who have opened their minds. Talked to other people, look to other companies to role model, put themselves through an education process. 

[00:16:56] As you say, listening to people's stories, attending events, reading [00:17:00] reports, like the Hidden Truth report, proactively taking actions towards the goal of diversifying their board. And by the way, when we talk about it, recruitment terms, it's not just ethnic and gender diversity. It's also cognitive diversity. 

[00:17:14] That's something I talk a lot about to boards is it's the thinking. It's, it's someone who thinks differently to you. We're all aware and educated on conscious, non conscious bias recruiting in our own image. Although that's still very prevalent, sadly it happens, but, but if you want to be different and do something different. Get someone who thinks differently to you and is not just going to be an echo chamber for your own ideas and positively agree with everything you say as a chair or as a CEO. Bring someone in who's going to think differently so that requires open-mindedness, learning, listening. And as you say, you’ve got to do things with intention.  

[00:17:51] Simone Roche: So this year you've joined the 2022 Power-List for Northern Power Women recognizing and celebrating individuals.  

[00:17:58] Leyla Tindall: Yeah. What a  privilege! Thank you so much. I was so excited when I got your email in my inbox. I did stood up and did a little gleeful skip around my office with joy. Oh. So humbled and honoured. 

[00:18:11] Simone Roche: And it's so important to high five, every achievement. So tell me what's next for you, Leyla?  

[00:18:16] Leyla Tindall: Well more of the same. I think I've, I've already said, I love what I do. I love my job. So at Robert Half I'm helping to build out the brand half of our UK search practice, you know, looking to build out the brand for SME businesses and scale up that's what we do. We're really good at it. We just don't shout loud enough about it.  

[00:18:33] And personally I'm looking to continue the same thing, placing chiefs of industry and non-execs advocating for female leadership and supporting that and raising two of my own independent females I've got in my house. I've got two daughters, Ella and Mya age 11 and nearly 14. So I'm, I'm about to enter that dreaded teenage year period of my life. So keeping all my strength up to navigate through that.  

[00:19:01] Simone Roche: Lots to high five and lots to celebrate for sure. Thank you so much, Leyla, for chatting with me here today. 

[00:19:08] Leyla Tindall: Oh, Simone. Thank you very much for having me. It's been a real pleasure  

[00:19:11] Simone Roche: And thank you so much for tuning in today. 

[00:19:13] If you love our episodes, let us know by rating, reviewing, subscribing, wherever you get your podcast. This helps us to spread the stories of amazing role models like Leyla and reach more people. Reach out to us on socials at North Power Women on Twitter and Northern Power Women on all our other social media. 

[00:19:28] Let us know what you think. Join us next week when we'll be celebrating the fifth anniversary of the Northern Power Women podcast with none other than the fantastic Sam Walker when I'll be joined to have a great conversation and reflecting on the past five years of this award-winning podcast. 

[00:19:46] My name is Simone Roche. You've been listening to the Northern Power Women podcast, a What Goes on Media Productions.