Simone Roche  0:19   

The Northern Power Women podcast for your career and your life, no matter what business you're in.  

Hello, hello, and welcome to the Northern Power Women podcast and this is our We Are More season. I'm Simone Roche and this season we're going to be chatting to our winners, our commended and our partners of the Northern Power Women awards doing what we do best which is showcasing and spotlighting role models. In case you weren't aware the Northern Power Women awards are proudly the largest celebration of gender equality in Europe, created to highlight the amazing impact that individuals, organisations, teams and services are having whilst accelerating gender equality and wider inclusion from the North. And here at Northern Power Women HQ we're passionate about continuing to build a community of trailblazers and go getters, and working together to create a more inclusive working world. And my guests know all about that. This week. I'm delighted to be joined by Karen Campbell Williams and Jen Barnett, representing Grant Thornton, who won our Large Organisation at this year's 2022 awards. And just just to give you a background Grant Thornton is one of the world's largest professional service networks of independent students tax and advisory businesses with member firms in over 135 countries and the UK a member firm Grant Thornton, UK LLP is one of the largest UK Accounting and Business Advisors. Karen is UK Head of Tax and a member of the strategic leadership team which functions as an executive board running the firm's UK business operations born and brought up in Glasgow and moved to the Northwest in 1989, joining Grant Thornton in 94, and becoming a partner in 1997, when our daughters were ages five and eight, and she later went on to become the head of tax for the Northwest practice in 2010, by which time she had added a son to her family born in 2004. Karen is also sponsor of the SLT for social mobility, something we're passionate about here at Northern Power Women and The Power Collective and close to her own art giving her working class roots and some of the challenges she faced moving into the world of work. 

Jen is a People Change Specialist and Psychologist and the UK lead inclusion for diversity and sustainability at Grant Thornton responsible for designing and leading the firm's distinctive l&d and sustainability strategy. This strategy aims to transform the culture and attract, retain and liberate diverse people. I love that, liberate diverse people to deliver an exceptional client experience. Prior to this role Jen was people experienced director where she shaped the employee value proposition and influence senior leaders to change behaviour to improve the people experience. Jen has expertise in psychological culture change and then there's executive coaching a leadership specialist. 

Welcome to you both, what bios that you have I always delivery them up. But when I've got two for one, that's massive. Welcome, Karen and Jen to the podcast.  

Jen  3:16   

Thanks. 

Karen  3:17   

Thanks Simone I'm delighted to be here. Thank you.  

Simone Roche  3:20   

And tell us what did winning the award  this year mean to you as both an individual and as an organisation of which I felt the whole of Grant Thornton In the north were on that stage that evening in Manchester? 

Karen  3:32   

I mean, I guess for me as an individual, I was delighted not not for me, but for the organisation and for all our people who tirelessly day after day, like Jane are really focused on how we become more inclusive, how we become more diverse, and actually how we interweave that into everything that we do. So it was fantastic. We had Jen and some of the team had come that that work on us full time had come and we're whether it's and we also had some of our newer younger people who joined the firm with us that night as well who have got involved in speaking out about things and experience and talking about their journeys and how they've got involved in different things. So and they've never been seen anything like that before. So it was a fantastic experience all rounder thing. But as a firm, I guess what I'd say is it's a really good sort of acknowledgement and endorsement of all the work that the team are doing. And the hard work that's gone in it doesn't mean we're finished, sort of sorted everything out. There's always loads to do. But I think what that does is give us sort of a focus and a cause for celebration that what we're doing has been recognised and help build a platform for people to feel that motivation to keep moving forward and doing more.  

Jen  4:42   

So yeah, I think from a personal perspective, it puts into perspective all of their hard work that a number of the team have been involved in over particular things I've been working on,which is over two years. I think it's an important symbol of change. I think when you're looking at inclusion and diversity, it is all about how much we're prepared to change and what we're prepared to put in place to support people to perform at their best. And I think when you win an award like this, it really highlights positively changes that we have made. So it doesn't mean we have achieved everything. But it's an important motivator, both internally and also externally as a way to share what we've done and to, you know, there's no competition in inclusion, diversity, I think that's the great thing about it, people can share organisations can share what they've done. And this is a good opportunity to do that.  

Simone Roche  5:35   

And I've always thought that, you know, this isn't a race, like you've just said, Jen, you know, it's not about splitting it all up, isn't it into pie and go well, you've got more of this, you're more of this than we are, you know, and I think it's very much about the doing, and I think, you know, so many people and individuals and organisations talk the talk, but actually, it's about the cracking on and walking the walk. What does Grant Thornton do so well, that other businesses can emulate because again, like you say, it's not a competition. And I always think there's, I would always want to pass on that knowledge. So other people can pick up and, and take some of those top tips from you.  

It's that whole measurement piece, isn't it? You know, it's that, you know, that whole adage is what gets measured, gets done, and you've talked about your CEO, and, you know, and equally, we're really passionate about giving people a platform and a stage. And so, talk to me about, you know, I know as an organisation, really keen to celebrate male allies and male advocacy, you know, it's something that's we're passionate about, that's something you do pretty well, isn't it at Grant Thornton as well, Karen.  

Karen  8:20   

I mean, I think it goes wider than just even the sort of male allies. I mean, that's obviously really important when you're looking around the gender strand, but across our whole business, we are very, we talk all the time, there's always stories about ally, you know, the ally ship underlying everything. We have inclusion allies, which include people from all sorts of levels within the firm, right up to the SLT our strategic leadership team being involved. I'm an inclusion ally, we have training, which helps, we hear people come along, Jen talked before about sharing stories, I think that's so important, because you when something becomes real, and it's actually someone's actual lived life experience that really helps people understand what things mean to them and, and how things will impact and affect people. So I think some of the stuff of doing that the whole thing of allyship, reverse mentorship, which obviously is partly builds that allyship into what you do. And we have an Inclusion Advisory Board, which covers effect the people that are on there, cover all the different strands of inclusion, and meet as an SLT take all our key decisions and run them past that board in the context of what does that mean making sure that we're taking those different views and we're seeing that whole sort of spectrum of how sort of key decisions that we might make as a board will impact all of our business. So, you know, the whole allyship is male allies as an area that you know, that's really important. And I think, Jen, we've got some great examples. We were talking earlier, weren't you but one of our tax partners, I don't know whether you want to pick pick that up.  

Jen  6:11   

For me, when I first took on this role, what was really apparent was that our CEO took this agenda really seriously. So I reported into him when I first took on the opportunity. And he had a great respect for the skill set that I brought, which was around psychology and change and culture and how to embed inclusion first and into our culture and listen to voices that we probably wouldn't ordinarily listen to. And I think it's a finding moment was we put in a reverse mentoring programme, and the CEOs been with us mentored by an individual who was quite Junior in the firm, and who was also identified as non binary and had come from a quite a deprived social background. And they've actually asked this person to stand up on stage and tell their story to one of the partners. And they did that. And they had a fun innovation at the partner conference. And it had such a big impact on the people there and I think that was one of their first defining moments of our everyday inclusion strategy, because it was hearing a voice that they wouldn't ordinarily have heard. So I think that's really important, but he takes it really seriously. And I think the investment of time, and resources to make that happen, show that you're getting serious about it. Having structure that's right for your business, you know, we worked really hard on what was right for our business, what's weird to do at the time, and that strategy has evolved over time, and we're ready to place organisations, very sophisticated, robust data to analyse where we're at, and look at where we need to make improvements. 

I will actually, some great. So this is just one thing we're working on, we're working on how we embed flexible working and job shares in our business. And part of that is looking at the digital technology, we need to share work and just some of the practicalities. And we have actually two male partners, one from audit and one from tax who are heavily involved in that flexible working programme, because they're really passionate about flexible working as a whole and that so it's not just a gender issue, although flexible working will absolutely help working families, what we're trying to move towards with working families, and everything we talk about as gender neutral language, working families, about empowering men and women and non binary and gender non conforming in every identification of gender to actually support, how they raise their families, and how they choose to balance their lives.  

And so moving and deliberately moving that away from a women's only issue is really important for us. And it embeds this principle that in order for people to perform at their best, and to get peak performance, we need to recognise that people have lives outside of work as well. 

Simone Roche  11:02   

And I think this, this kind of really lends itself to the fact that you are very, very high priority on supporting parents. And you know, there's such a focus on paternity leave. And I know this is something for you know, since the this came into law, there's always been a very low percentage of men that will actually take that paternity leave. And how is that? How is this sort of shifting in the in the culture Grant Thornton? And I totally appreciate what you're saying is actually it's not just about what we do for men, or what we do for women, or what we do for non binary it's actually is that wider approach. How does that shift in workplace culture sort of help sort of this this struggle? And how do we get more men to take that paternity leave? 

Jen  11:43   

I think the way society is set up at the moment in terms of legislation is that we have what's called shared parental leave. But in order to share parental leave to be successful, the take up of it with men is really low. Because the women have to give something up in order for the man to be able to take time off. So it's shared. So the woman has to give up some of that maternity leave for the man to take the share parental leave. What we've tried to do on Thornton is recognise that and rather than ask the woman to take something away, we've actually given more paternity leave. So again, is to try and equalise this view that men and women need time off when they've had such a life changing event, was having a time in a child, particularly firstborn child.  

So we've got a number of networks that we have set up to support parents working parents. And also we've got Single Parent Network for this stuff, as well support that and we have transition coaching people being off work, coming back to work. And we're increasingly time stories about men who are working part time by choice, because they're choosing to be part of the childcare arrangements and raising the children. So we are, it's difficult, isn't it? Because society is so set up around the caregiver than the woman that we were trying really hard to change that view. 

Simone Roche  12:59   

And that's definitely where the culture piece comes in, doesn't it? And Karen, just moving on, you are really passionate about promoting social mobility. We, you know, we talked earlier, you came from a, you've got into finance from a working-class background, do you think that pathway is a lot clearer now? And that's why social mobility is so important to you?  

Karen  13:19   

I don't think is 

I think it's moved on a lot. I mean, I'm going back 30 odd years, so the world was hugely different than anyway. And I guess for me, the biggest thing was just not knowing people not knowing the systems, not knowing processes and I just didn't have any kind of support network, if you like that would help me through any of that. So I had to kind of find my own way in lots of ways. I think that still happens to some extent, but I do think there is a lot more that's been done through organisations like Northern Power Women, Power Collective, things like Social Mobility Foundation, organisations like ours, who are actually really sort of getting involved that will help some of that there's still there's still more work to do.  

But I think you can never underestimate just even what might seem like something quite minor, that the impact that can have in someone's life. So you know, some of the things we've been doing rise as a social mobility and sort of going into schools. it's a programme, which I've got involved in doing a couple of workshops as well because I just wanted to go and experience that and feel it and that's sort of what the ICAW the accountancy body and some of the sort of larger firms, if you like, have got involved in that and it's now extending out, but just some of the stories and understanding that it just helps raise aspirations people can see you can't be you know, that's what we see. You can't be what you can't see, but that role modelling and I do think all that's moved on so much. And then organisations like, you know, within Grant Thornton we were the first to drop the academic requirements in our profession, in terms of entry, but we're working really, really hard around things like school leavers and also around you know, trying to make sure that we get that diversity in terms of social mobility and then looking at progression once people are in the organisation to make sure that we're given the right support to help people really sort of move their careers forward, whatever their background. So yeah, I'm actually I'm quite passionate about that.  But I do think, I think there's still lots to do. And it's not perfect that there always be work to do. But I do think the world has moved on quite a lot in the last 30 odd years, thankfully, in terms of having a bit more clarity around, you know, where you go, and even just the internet, and being access to information helps us on that, too. If people have got that, and obviously, not everyone has. 

Simone Roche  15:35   

And I think that storytelling is always going to be a part of this is always going to be a part because actually, like you say the world has changed. Look at the last three years and the global pandemic and how we work and our stories are changing constantly. And you know, Jen, you come from your expertise is in psychological culture change. How does this come into play in your day-to-day work at Grant Thornton? 

Jen  15:57   

I think I use it every day. I think you mentioned that didn't you that human societies are not static. So, attitudes and norms do change over time. And we are triggered by life events. And we're triggered by things that happen in the media. And that has helped to shape parts, some of our focus and our strategy. But I think the reason the idea is so interesting, and also complex and also necessary, and also hard is that you need to persuade the majority to shift in order for the minority to flourish. So, people will only accept that there's a need to change if they first believe there's an issue.  

And secondly, if they're given small actions that they can take without feeling threatened. So we've worked a lot on and I think Karen's mentioned inclusion, allies and helping people to think about what they can do to support the agenda in their own way. And we've given people the skills and tried to give people the skills that are required, and that consistency of role models. So all of that, you know, anybody who's interested in psychological change that there's some of the first things you look at, you look at? What's the real common purpose that we have that people believe in? How's that threaded through everything that you do? And all the decisions that you make as an organisation? How do you get people the skills required to make that change? And then how do you reinforce that three role models and the systems and your change in the way that you the way that you choose to measure people? 

Karen  17:24   

I think the one thing I'd add to that, I think is that there has to be real authenticity to it. And that that's where it can go wrong, can't it because you can't see one thing and do something different. So I think the actions of everyone within our organisation, but naturally, you probably spotlight more on some of the leaders because that's what people see him all look to. So there's a real importance, I think, in making sure that there's authenticity in that and that people know that actually mean something. And that it is it's not just words.  

Simone Roche  17:54   

So finally, what are you most excited about getting involved in the future? Grant? Thornton? What's next on the agenda? Jen, come to you first. 

Jen  18:03   

Well, I think there's a real opportunity for us now, as we're growing in our environmental and societal impact, and thinking about our approach to that is what does that mean? How can we join everything up? So Karen mentioned that we do a lot around social mobility, we're obviously done an awful lot around gender, and supporting cultural heritage and ethnicity and disability, how would you join all of that  and start to think about the real barriers that exist culturally and help all of our diverse talent to thrive? But there's also an opportunity to link that up with what we're doing around our environment, how we're asking people to approach that. So there's, there's a whole piece around, how can we be a really responsible business, have a voice in that, and use all of the good work that we've all the foundation that we've already started to continue to embed that work? And to have to have a say in that externally as well. 

Simone Roche  18:58   

And Karen, what about you what's going to be the highlight of the next six months for you? 

Karen  19:03   

I think just seeing the progression and the work that that Jane and the team are doing. And I think there's a real big thing, I would just echo what Jane says the around tying that up with the whole ESG agenda and the SMI so interlinked. And we are working increasingly  across the business to sort of look at how we do that in a much more connected way. I also, I love to see the engagement, the increasing engagement that we're getting from people. And so, you know, every week there are stories on our intranet, people are sharing more and more and I think, you know, the more that we can continue to build that sort of psychological safety and people that they feel that they're able to do that and share because that just enriches that sort of experience for everyone within the organisation. So I'm really excited by how well that's moving and some of our you know, partners really opening up and sharing their own experiences and people right through the whole organisation you know getting involved in that it's just been great for me to see and I think we can do more. 

Simone Roche  20:10   

And you know what it's great to hear it's great to hear that S coming through you know, the S and the SG is all about social we've talked about social value, social mobility, but I think that's come across to me in our conversation today is about the storytelling and the fact that the storytelling across every level whether it's that your reverse mentor, whether it's the Chief Exec, everyone's got a journey everyone's got a story and will continue to change your thank you so much, Grant Thornton massive for joining me today. Thank you Karen and Jen for chatting and thank you for tuning in today. If you love our episodes let us know by rating reviewing and subscribing wherever you get your podcast. This helps us to spread the stories more stories of role models who are accelerating gender equality and wider inclusion from the North.  

Get involved in our Power Collective our power ups. We know the Grant Thornton team of early careers and professionals have been involved in these one hour speed micro mentoring sessions. We do them every month for free, please do get involved. Reach out to us on socials at Northpowerwomen on Twitter and Northern Power Women on all our other social media channels or drop us a line old school podcast at Northernpowerwomen.com  

Join us next Monday. We'll now be joined by more role models from the northern power and community. My name is Simone Roche and you've been listening to the Northern Power Women podcast, a What Goes On Media production