How To Make Your Work Fit Into Your Life with Nicola Bamford

[00:00:00] Nicola Bamford: The Northern Power Women Podcast for your career and your life, no matter what 

[00:00:25] Simone Roche: business you're in. 

[00:00:26] Hello and welcome to the Northern Power Women Podcast. And this is the Be More You season. And this season has been all about showing that you do not need to change yourself to reach a definition of success.

[00:00:38] And so we've been encouraging everyone to be their authentic self and still reach and in fact, smash those girls. And tonight, not only is it the Northern Power Women Awards today, but actually it's my next guests birthday, which I am delighted that someone would come on our lovely Northern Power Women podcast on their birthday.

[00:00:54] So welcome, Nicola. Welcome to the podcast. 

[00:00:56] Nicola Bamford: Thank you. And I'm really excited about my birthday this year because I'm one of those awful March birthdays that has had the raw deal from Covid. So I've had two birthdays, including my 40th actually in lockdown. And then last year when we were finally out of lockdown, I got covid, so I had to cancel all my birthday plans.

[00:01:13] So this year I'm really hoping that my husband just pulled out all the stops because I've got high expectations. 

[00:01:18] Simone Roche: Well listen if you are listening, Mr. B then please do quickly get that sorted right now and, and obviously you'll have the live stream on your phone somewhere just to check out all of the fantastic role models from our seventh Northern Power Women Awards.

[00:01:32] So please do join. The conversation while you're at it. Hashtag NPW awards. Hashtag we power, hashtag Happy Birthday Nicola

[00:01:37] Nicola Bamford: Fantastic. And I'll absolutely, yeah, don't worry. I'll be checking in to see how some of our EY colleagues are getting on that list. 

[00:01:45] Simone Roche: I'm delighted to welcome you today.

[00:01:46] You're a partner in Lead for Public Services Consulting in the North at EY who are of course our headline partners for the Northern Power Women Awards for the third year in a row. So you know, let's get into the questions. We had a conversation a few weeks ago and it's always fascinating to find out, nobody has one straight line story or one straight line career trajectory and, and it always erases me how people think.

[00:02:08] I'm not sure I've really got much to say, and I'm like, hell yes. So you are a partner at one of the biggest accounting firms in the world, but like we say your trajectory, your root wasn't quite the traditional one, was it? And it feels like quite a pivot that you had in your journey.

[00:02:22] Tell us about it. 

[00:02:22] Nicola Bamford: I have to say, by just even hearing you do that intro is like the classic imposter syndrome, which I know I've listened to some of your other podcasts is like a really common thing, but Wow, when I hear that, I think yeah, that's surreal. Aside from recording this post, Podcast in the first place.

[00:02:37] Which feels a bit surreal. But yeah, I guess if you think about it from a traditional point of view it wasn't a typical start to an EY career, or at least by our traditional sense anyway. So my career actually started in local government. So I worked within local councils for nine years before I joined EY as a management trainee as part of the scheme, very similar to what they do in the NHS and the civil service, moved around services and departments. So got a ton of exposure to all of the things that local government gets involved in. And both as a grad, but also in the roles I went onto afterwards.

[00:03:13] I always gravitated towards project type roles. So I feel like within that nine years I just got a ton of varied experience across all of the different services in departments. And I guess that's why I gravitated towards a career in consulting because the very nature of what we do means that you get involved in lots of different clients, solving lots of different problems, working on very different projects.

[00:03:38] And probably from an EY perspective, that was why I was a, an attractive proposition because I came with all of that different experience and perspective. And just having been on the other side from a client point of view could definitely relate to some of the challenges and issues that they face.

[00:03:55] So yeah, it wasn't the typical root route in. And I'm not an accountant either, so whenever anybody I meet says, oh, who do you work for? I work for ey. Oh, you're an accountant? I said, no, I'm not an accountant. But I do work for ey. So yeah, I guess it was a slightly nonconformative route into the firm.

[00:04:11] Simone Roche: And when you were making that sort of big sort of career move, were you nervous to do that? Were you nervous thinking about, I'm. I like being here. There's something in this local authority or local government route that makes me feel as though I'm doing good and I can make change. Were you nervous or did it just feel like the right thing to do?

[00:04:27] Nicola Bamford: I was nervous. Yeah, definitely because it was a big change. But I think a little bit of nerves is always a good thing and I think because I'd always worked in that project capacity over my local government career. There was lots of examples of where I worked with external advisors on different pieces of work.

[00:04:42] So I kind of had an idea of what they did. And I think probably what made the move less scary were the people. And I think ,I can say this now, having been on both sides for a number of years, is ultimately people are people. And I think if as long as you are focused on the same aim, then actually it doesn't really matter which side of the fence you're on.

[00:05:04] And I think the extent to which I can make that change or that impact that you described in many ways is greater as an external because you don't have the same restrictions that you have when you are working within an organization. So I mean, there's pros and cons on either side, but I definitely didn't feel like I was having a complete pivot in terms of the work I was doing and the kind of people I was working with, I was just changing who I was working for. 

[00:05:32] Simone Roche: We talk about the Big four and I think those who, know ,know, what is a big four? And actually people will assume, like you say, you are in auditing or tax or you don't realize the many levels or of layers of different roles and opportunities that there are in there. I know when we do our power up mentoring, which I know you've, you've been part of or I dragged you into I think when we did the convention in the north, that was one of the conversations that we had.

[00:05:56] We didn't, I didn't, I didn't know what it was. I didn't know what this, and then you suddenly pull back and you're like, I didn't know that was for me. And I think that's that, culture of so many opportunities within the, these big organizations, aren't they? Within the Big four?

[00:06:08] Nicola Bamford: Yeah, totally. And it still amuses me to this day. And in fact, we had a partner event recently and we had some of our more junior colleagues who came and did a panel for us and they got to ask those questions. And then at the end we got the opportunity to ask them questions about their experience of joining EY.

[00:06:24] And the first question, one of Partner colleagues asked was what do you tell people you do when you meet them in the pub? Because it is just, it's still the same now and so many people I meet, if it's a mum on the school game, say, well, what do you do? And you try and explain and immediately say the name and they say, oh you're an accountant, or you're in your audit.

[00:06:42] I think there is a real, unless you are part of that world or you've had experience of it, you wouldn't necessarily know the full breadth of what we do. But I think in my case, in consulting, it's all about working with clients. And again, in my case, the public sector clients to deliver big, complex projects and solve complex problems is kind of how I would describe what we do.

[00:07:03] Simone Roche: And have you seen this culture change over the years? Because I look now, I think what you see organizations like ey, big organizations involved in things that you might not expect them to be involved with. And you are like, oh gosh, it's a real conversation to be had, Stephen Church talking about net zero, carbon neutral.

[00:07:20] You know, and you're just saying, oh, I didn't see that. Or actually there's a real passion here around neurodiversity with the first center outside of the states being in Manchester. So it's interesting isn't it to see that has changed and sort of where the reaches is out there.

[00:07:33] Nicola Bamford: Yeah, definitely. Definitely. And I think even more so within local public services, because I think certainly when I joined a lot of our focus was working with big central government departments on those large programs and that our local public services team was much smaller in comparison and there's been a real rebalancing of that over the 12 years that I've been with EY and some of the examples there that, that you were referencing. Again, our expertise has really grown both in terms of what we've developed ourselves, but also our partners and associates that we've built up over time. So we can get involved in some really interesting stuff.

[00:08:11] I mean, the whole sustainability agenda is just huge and we've kind of taught with clients and internally recently about, is this new or just the latest wave of transformation. And I think it's a longer conversation to have, but certainly I think where EY can act as a convener or almost like an orchestrator of those different capabilities within the firm, that's when we can really help our clients so that they would, in my role in particular, having a regional role.

[00:08:41] And that's part of that rebalancing actually, that our government team is not just run out of our London offices near Tower Bridge, that actually we are covering the whole of the UK and that as a regional role, I'm closer to local clients in terms of what they're looking for and what they need and can bring the best of EY to them, whatever topic that might be. And again, it might be that I reach into the firm or it might be I reach into our wider network of partners as well. And certainly sustainability is an area that fits that bill in a similar way to technology where we've really expanded our presence recent years.

[00:09:17] Simone Roche: I saw it was only a couple of weeks ago for International Women's Day that there's a new sort of tech app, to get more, more women into, into STEM and stuff, which is absolutely amazing. So again it's present in the places that you don't expect, isn't it? So EY, expect the unexpected. Maybe that's your new tagline. I'm gonna get onto Rebecca and Brandon. 

[00:09:32] Nicola Bamford: I'll have a word with Steven.

[00:09:33] Simone Roche: You talked about the regions. You're a passionate northerner, you've always worked in and across the North and Greater Manchester. How has the North changed over the last couple of decades, what do you think the rest of the country's view of the North is?

[00:09:46] Nicola Bamford: I think there are real nuances within the North region for sure, and yet I have both pre and with EY, always worked within the north region majority of that time within Greater Manchester and I would say within the greater Manchester area, there's been a real evolution of how local public services are both delivered and governed within that period.

[00:10:08] And I think you can see how that is being replicated in a way that fits those areas in other sub-regions within the north. But just the profile and the credibility I think has increased massively. I mean, you mentioned the conference of the North, which took place in January and, and I know andy Burnham described this himself at the conference, but actually I think it was authentic that it felt very different.

[00:10:31] I've been to a number of those events over the years, but the fact that we had two government ministers there, which in the past we just haven't had that presence. The attendance was fantastic. I mean, it was huge at Manchester Central, wasn't it? There were so many people there, and even the coverage it got in the press was far greater than I've seen at other events.

[00:10:52] So, yeah, I'd say there's definitely something around the north that the extent to which the North is either under the governance of a combined authority or other form of devolved government is just increasing all the time now. And then within Greater Manchester itself the decision making and budgets that have been devolved to a local LA a local level and how those are being used to really move things forward is, yeah, it's fantastic to see and it's, and even better to be involved.

[00:11:18] Simone Roche: It's good to see, it's good to have the positive conversations and I totally agree and echo sort of the vibe at that convention of the north did definitely have that as opposed to sometimes it could be ugh, but actually it was great. There was a real sense of optimism, I think. 

[00:11:31] Nicola Bamford: Really optimistic, I would say.

[00:11:33] I would agree with that word. 

[00:11:34] Simone Roche: So let's talk about you. You were made a partner just before you went on maternity leave, and you have an 18 month year old, a seven and a five year old, if I remember correctly.

[00:11:43] Nicola Bamford: Very well remembered. Yeah. You can remind my husband. 

[00:11:47] Simone Roche: Well, he won't need to because he will have pulled out all the stops for the birthday.

[00:11:49] So how do you continue to develop and build the career that works for you? Because I think that was a phrase I remember when we had our pre-chat, which was a talk about creating something that works for you. There's no one size sort of fits all to nailing maternity leave and cover and progression.

[00:12:05] Nicola Bamford: Yeah, definitely. And I wouldn't say that I've got it nailed either. I think everybody's just trying to kind of find their path, find their way. But I have been lucky in that I've had two promotions either during maternity leave or just before maternity leave. So I feel like you know, my career at EY has been hugely positive from that perspective of trying to build a career at the same time as building a family.

[00:12:30] So, yeah I think I've definitely had the freedom and the support and more than that, the encouragement and the sponsorship to make it happen from a work perspective and at home similarly, really having that support to make it happen and to be able to juggle family life. Now that I'm back at work with three little ones and yeah, I think I always say some weeks it works really well and you feel like you're winning In other weeks it's a total car crash, but you keep going. And I hope and whether I like it or not I am a role model within the firm for a female partner who is juggling that career and family life.

[00:13:10] That it does give others the idea, the exposure, that you can do it in your own way just by being visible.

[00:13:17] Simone Roche: And how did Covid change the way that you approach work as a parent? 

[00:13:22] Nicola Bamford: Oh, massively. So my third baby is we just had the two older ones during Covid, but we fell into that bracket of both working while having two preschoolers at home all the time.

[00:13:33] So I kind of wince a little bit when I look back at that time and think, how did we get through that? But then at the same time, I also look back at it and sometimes I wish we were still in that phase and just kind of because life externally outside of the home just slowed down and that diary that normally is jump packed was suddenly free and you just had that time.

[00:13:53] And I guess that's probably something that we, well you try to, to continue post covid just in the sense of carving out that family time. And I think it also, we both work at home a lot more than we used to. And that makes the juggle possible in many ways, especially now we've got two at school. 

[00:14:13] Simone Roche: And do you think that, you talk about, do you think that because many companies are switched onto this power of flexible working because they know there's been so many mixed kind of messages out there, you must come back into the work. Nope, we're not changing, actually. We've proved it can work. We're gonna stay. Do you think companies are sort of leveraging that flexible working as much as they could be? 

[00:14:33] Nicola Bamford: I think on the whole, yeah, or certainly the more Mature, perhaps, advanced established organizations are definitely seeing the benefits. I mean, the research is out there, so I think again, there's no one size fits all and I think employers need to look at their own employees, and I think the biggest thing we did at EY is to have a conversation with our employees because it's very different depending on what your situation is.

[00:14:59] For me, the working at home has been a bit of a godsend as far as fitting in with school pickups and drop-offs, that kind of thing. But for some of our more junior colleagues who, may be valued coming into the office as an opportunity to socialize with colleagues and peers, it was really quite challenging to work from home.

[00:15:18] And I think when you're trying to build a network at work with peers and colleagues and doing so from, your bedroom at home has its limitations. And so actually I think the key thing is to be able to provide for that full spectrum of need. And like I say we have a hybrid policy whereby, the expectation is that you'll have a mix of at home and in the office working days. But we're all grownups and you determine how you manage your own working week as long as you are delivering on your client's expectations and your own personal objectives as well.

[00:15:54] Simone Roche: And you mentioned networking in there and sort of that can almost be seen if you are sort of more working at home. You don't have that network, but one of the things that you've said is that actually you've had built that network as much at the school gates as at work. Can you talk to us about that?

[00:16:07] Nicola Bamford: I suppose what I meant by that is that I am afforded a huge amount of flexibility and so is my husband as well, and that's how we are able to make this thing work or mostly work, but the conversations you have with other parents who are in the same situation is that not everyone is afforded that same freedom and flexibility, which is quite disheartening actually in many cases because I think it prohibits so many people from progressing their careers in a way that they want to because, oh, I'm not sure that I can work from home and actually unless I'm able to work from home I can't really make it work full stop. Or I want to be able to work three days and not five days, because that fits in with whatever, doesn't have to be parenting responsibilities, but that's my frame of reference in terms of my at my stage of life.

[00:16:57] And again, if you're not, if there's a kind of negative response to that, then it turns potentially amazing talent away from your organization. And yeah, that's when you chat to people and there's lots of examples of others who were able to make it work as well. And it's becoming so commonplace, isn't it for people to have that flexibility either in terms of when they work or where they work.

[00:17:19] But unfortunately it's not universal. 

[00:17:21] Simone Roche: It's not, and I think this is where, I think this is where the role modeling comes in. And I think you being that. Partner role model with your three small ones, sort of as you sort of fire on and power up your partner, your partner's sort of career as well.

[00:17:34] It's really important to have that visibility of amazing humans like you. Nicola, thank you so much for joining me. I think we've covered so much ground. We've gone from transformation to troubleshooting to convention of the north, to the north and cross-sector. We've been everywhere today on today's podcast. 

[00:17:48] Nicola, thank you so much. A massive many happy returns to you as well. And don't forget as well, don't forget to check in on the award.

[00:17:55] Nicola Bamford: Can't wait to see all the pictures. 

[00:17:57] Simone Roche: High Fiveing some of those amazing role models. Thank you so much, Nicola, for joining us today, and thank you for listening.

[00:18:02] And don't forget to head over to the Northern Power Women livestream tonight where you'll be able to watch the Northern Power Women Awards live, the greatest and the largest awards, celebrating gender equality in Europe. 

[00:18:13] And please do stay connected on everything around the we are power agenda on our award-winning platform where you can find our podcast insights and events and networking and get involved in our runway of events, including our webinars and our fantastic power ups.

[00:18:28] Thank you so much for listening today. My name is Simone. You've been listening to the Northern Power Women Podcast and what goes on media production.