The Power of Female Representation in Sports with Yvonne Harrison

Join us as Yvonne Harrison, the powerhouse behind Women in Football, shares her transformative journey and the strides toward gender equity in the sports world. Reflecting on her path, we unravel the essential life skills and career motivations that are often intertwined with a love for sports, and how these experiences have propelled her to advocate for diversity and foster inclusive cultures within businesses.

Together with Yvonne, we celebrate the triumphs that have reshaped the sporting industry, including the Lionesses' historic victories and Mary Epps' accolade as BBC Sports Personality of the Year, while acknowledging that the journey toward full equality continues. Join us as we peer into the future of women's football and sport, examining the positive ripple effects of increased female participation and leadership.

Listen to learn
- The  rapidly evolving landscape of women's roles in sports 
- The collective responsibility of individuals, organisations, and leaders to champion and empower women in sports
- The necessity of creating accessible pathways for women aiming for the top tiers of sports management
- The importance of support from male allies and the power of mentorship

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Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:38

The Northern Power Women Podcast for your career and your life, no matter what business you're in. Hello and welcome to the Northern Power Women Podcast. The Northern Power Women Podcast is all about highlighting super fantastic, kick-ass role models, hearing about their personal stories, find out about how their career has got to where they've got to and literally being able to celebrate all of their achievements, and also picking up some of their top tips on the way. And this year, as we kind of roll into International Women's Day in March, what we're doing is we're creating a series. We don't want International Women's Day to be about one day. I think often we as women can get pulled in every single direction. So we're creating a series, a series to highlight their amazing role models.

Speaker 1: 1:27

And this year we're looking at female role models across the world of sports, of which there is such an amazing ascendancy of everything going on across every single discipline of sports. So this week I cannot wait to talk to the wonderful, multi-award-winning executive with over 20 years experience though she doesn't look like it at all Yvonne Harrison. Welcome the chief exec of Women in Football. We've had a good gap before, haven't we even got on the air One of our power list? You've been at Women in Football for the last two years. You've got a massive passion about equality, driving that change and literally change your life through sport. Tell me welcome, welcome. What's it like? How have you been?

Speaker 2: 2:10

It's been too long I know I know Well. First of all, thank you for having me. God, it's a blast from the past all the power list, isn't it? Look at where the awards have got to now. It's amazing to see the growth of your organisation as well and the wonderful kind of champion you do with women across all walks of life. In the north, which is obviously my home and I'm very passionate about that as well, like you are Life has been good Two years at Women in Football, unbelievable growth, lots of challenges along the way, as you would imagine, for women working in the industry, but it's a real privilege to lead this organisation and make a difference to the over 9,000 members that we now have. It's super exciting and I have to say we have really felt a strong desire from organisations in football to push this agenda forward as well. So that's been really interesting to have some fantastic conversations and see the organisations recognising their role in gender equality in football.

Speaker 1: 3:13

And that's a real key part, isn't it? It's not just about you going. Here we go. I'm the chief executive of this organisation. I'm going to make all the change. It's making other people take ownership of that as well, isn't it? It needs that. I suppose that that wider approach, isn't it? It's not just you on your own making all the change.

Speaker 2: 3:30

Yeah, absolutely. You know, diversity is not going to be solved by any one individual, one organisation, one organisation like ours trying to do that, and, I think, women in football. You know it was established in 2007 by a group of female journalists who were, quite frankly, you know, had enough of the sexism that existed within their industry and it's sort of evolved over that period and now it's really an organisation that wants to work with the industry to create the change, because everyone's responsibility and we know that ultimately, if you have more diverse teams and create more inclusive cultures, businesses thrive and everybody wins in that respect.

Speaker 1: 4:09

Let's take you back to where you started, at Greater Sport. Is that where your passion of? Did you already have the passion for sport, or was it getting into that job that got you the passion around it?

Speaker 2: 4:20

Yeah, I mean I've always loved sport. I love playing at school. Right throughout my school life, from primary school and secondary school, played sport multiple levels wasn't like always. I guess when you leave school, you go into uni, you realise that some people are really really good at it and I probably wasn't one of them. But at school I was certainly on all the teams and I loved everything it gave me. You know the ability to win, to lose gracefully most of the time. You know to communicate, to lead people, to understand the dynamics of teams and everything that sort of brought into my career really I'll be forever sort of grateful for. But I had that passion and as I kind of went to uni, I did a leisure management degree at Salford, so it was about as sporty as it got back then, to be honest. And then I just thought I want to work in the sports industry and at the time the Commonwealth Games was coming to Manchester. So as I was studying like that was my goal, I want to work on the Commonwealth Games my home city. How amazing would that be.

Speaker 2: 5:20

I did a work placement at Greater Sport as part of my second year Because the Commonwealth Games team weren't ready yet. It was a little bit too soon for them to take on board any kind of work experience and I had never heard of this charity before. It was an unbelievable organisation that was very well connected to all of the national governing bodies, to sport England, and I thought if I want to work in sport like these people, like they can really help me. So I sort of took it upon myself when I'd done my six week placement to say, look, can I stay, can I keep coming in and just do, I'll do anything like whatever you want. So I've volunteered for pretty much 18 months as I finished my degree and then I got offered a job that I went for, applied for two jobs and in the same week I got offered both.

Speaker 2: 6:03

One was with Greater Sport and one was with the Commonwealth Games and it was like, oh my gosh, what do I do? Big decision time first, big decision really that I'd had to make, and as much as I really wanted to work on the Commonwealth Games, the role that I had wasn't that amazing and it would have been finished at that point. Now it could have led to other things, of course it could, but I just thought I've worked with this organisation, they believe in me. I really respect what they're doing and I'm going to go with that. And you know I never look back because you know, 15 years later I left to having been the CEO for four years and made that complete journey from being a volunteer right through and it was to this day, you know, when I became CEO, with one of the proudest days of my life.

Speaker 2: 6:47

You know, aside from my children and all of that, it was just, yeah, I cried and then I went to bed. I was absolutely exhausted because I put so much in. There's almost an expectation. Sometimes I think, if you're in an organisation, oh, it's yours, you're going to get that. I was up against people with a lot more experience than me. I'd not been a CEO, I was still a relatively young person in a way and, yeah, super proud and learned so much with actually working with an unbelievable board who at the time you don't really realise that, having worked with multiple boards, you kind of go, wow, that was good and their governance was excellent and it taught me so much that I've taken forward into, you know, the rest of my career really.

Speaker 1: 7:27

And I think sport has been over the decades, always been, has felt like a man's space. But have you seen during your time a greater sport and obviously now women in football? Have you seen those pathways and opportunities change? So, whether it be coaching, whether it be the wider roles that sit around sport, do you think it's improved?

Speaker 2: 7:46

Yeah, definitely, I mean I, you know I certainly, as a younger woman at greater sport, when I was going into those committee meetings or, you know, even boardrooms, sometimes you felt alone. You know they were. Or if there were women there, they were a lot older than you, but I also had great male allies around me. You know my former CEO, richard Saunders, the chairman of Greater Sport, chris Brinley I mean just brilliant people who pushed me. And so, whilst I recognised that I was different in those rooms, as I grew in my experience, confidence of knowledge, I then sort of found my voice. Like sometimes I'd be sat there and I'd be thinking of something that I wanted to say and I didn't say it, and then that man said it and it was really well received. I think I thought about that an hour ago. Why didn't I just have the voice to be able to sort of bring that to the floor? And yeah, so I think over time, absolutely there's definitely been more women coming into sport and more women pushing, pushing further, and I you know we spoke earlier about different people in the industry and we've sort of all grown up in it together and that's really nice.

Speaker 2: 8:55

I think there's a real responsibility from certainly a lot of the women that I know as friends and colleagues that to pave the way into help other women and young girls and support and that's where you know the work that you do at Northern Power Women, the mentoring they're giving it back, paying it forward.

Speaker 2: 9:10

All of that stuff is so, so important, something I'm really passionate about because we have to do that and we know that you know you can see it, you can be it, and that it is in everything it's officiating, it's coaching, it's boardroom, you know it's marketing, it's HR, it's legal, it's everywhere. And I just get such a buzz from seeing that growth. But there are still challenges. We know from our member survey there are still a lot of women only 27% actually who feel encouraged to kind of forge their way to the highest possible echelons within that football environment. So that's nearly three quarters of women who don't feel supported in that way. So they still work to be done, of course, with the class ceilings, but I think the more women speak about it, the more we're able to celebrate the successes that women have. It, the more hopefully it inspires others to think you know, I can do that and sport is, it's just an amazing industry. I mean the highs, the lows, everything's. You know, it's, you feel really part of something quite special.

Speaker 1: 10:15

And you talked before about, like Chris Brinley and some of those. You know they've got the chair, richard, and how important is advocacy and allyship. You know there doesn't go a week or day without there being some kind of an amazing woman in sport getting some trolling or negativity, whether it be on social media or whatever it may be. But there's some great guys out there calling out Gary Neville's called it out, ian Wright called it out, and there's many more out there. How key is that for this change to, I suppose, extinct the dinosaurs?

Speaker 2: 10:52

Yeah, yeah, I mean listen people. People have opinions and that will always exist and it should exist. I guess the challenge is where, where people bring those opinions into platforms that incite, you know, other people to kind of then jump in and cause issues and problems. And the allyship is really important because gender equality is not going to be solved by women. Like I don't want to speak at a conference about women in football and it's only women, because the people often who are making decisions about the future of the game are men. So it's really important that we have those male advocates and women in football. We have Ben Carter and Paul Barber on our board. Paul's the CEO of Premier League Football Club. It's really important because they listen to differently by their peers. You know, when Gary Neville speaks out, he's a great advocate. You know I've worked for him for a number of years and he's our classmate as a good friend. You know it's important because we don't feel isolated. We don't feel because you can feel quite paranoid about can I do this? And we know that women do have, you know, a greater degree of imposter syndrome. When it's some of the feedback that we get from females on our leadership course, confidence is a real challenge sometimes when you're in male dominated environments, you know we. You'd be amazed about how many women get asked, you know, do you like football? Do you know the rules? What you work? You know, oh, you must work in the women's game.

Speaker 2: 12:23

No, you know, and our members work right across the industry, both women's and men's football, obviously most working men's football because there hasn't been a women's football industry for very long. But we know that women feel, you know, held back by their gender. 82% of our members in July said they'd experienced discrimination in the workplace, in football, and that's a fact. And that's gone up Now. Arguably it might have gone up because more women are talking about it and calling it out for what it is. It might also be that the levels are increasing.

Speaker 2: 12:56

We don't know the ins and outs of that, but what we do know is that's a very high level of women experiencing discrimination and we know that sexism is the biggest kind of cause of that. People with you know, conscious bias, unconscious bias, all of these things are contributing. So that's quite a hard sell actually, if you think about inviting women to come and join the industry. And isn't this fantastic what 80% feel, you know we.

Speaker 2: 13:23

Maybe we don't want to be part of that, but we know that that allyship is crucial in shifting the dial and creating those inclusive cultures where the ban doesn't happen and where women don't feel marginalized or where networking events are when women potentially can attend or at least as a variation, so there is an opportunity to get amongst other people and not just on a golf course or in a ballet at night or whatever. And I'm not saying all women have children and all women have parents responsibilities, but all men don't necessarily want to be in some of these environments either, just like some men don't and non-binary allies. So it's super important that we have people, and particularly male colleagues, speaking out on our behalf and inviting us into conversations is really easy things that men can do to kind of open the door without even really realizing they're doing it, but the difference it makes to people is quite significant.

Speaker 1: 14:17

Is that intentional sponsorship, isn't it? It's not just inviting you into the room, it's putting the chair out, not expecting you to make the tea, to be actually participating. But what part do you think money's got to pay? We know that there's a real disparity, isn't there, between funding, between the women's game and the men's game. Can we be hopeful about that changing?

Speaker 2: 14:40

Yeah, I think so. I mean we've seen the government review on women's football that Karen Kearney led and then we've recently had the government's response to that, and there's a huge amount of work going on behind the scenes. Now the professional leagues are coming out of the FA, they're being established into a new co, and that creates huge opportunities for the commercial growth of the game. I think what people are really interested in is how the women's game grows sustainably. There's all been all sorts of challenges, very public in men's football in terms of financial situations of clubs and fair play and things like that. So it's important really that as the women's game grows, it does so in a way that it can be solid and have a solid foundation.

Speaker 2: 15:24

Some of the recommendations which were really important were around kind of wage flaws, because the average salary, I think, in the Barclays WSL is about 27k.

Speaker 2: 15:37

Now if you think about that a year, some players have paid as little as 8,000 pounds a year to play professional football.

Speaker 2: 15:46

Show me male professional football is really that would accept that it doesn't really happen.

Speaker 2: 15:52

But equally, we have to be realistic that even your top players are not going to go and get millions and millions and millions of pounds at this stage because there isn't that money within the women's game. So it's about what potential we can unlock with the new co, with new broadcast rights deals and things like that, and then that interchangeability between the club and how it invests in both the women's and men's side of the game, because ultimately women have got a long way to catch up more than 50 years, because they weren't allowed to play football. So there is all of this kind of commercial reality doesn't happen overnight. What we do know is more commercial partners are interested in getting involved. We know that the fan base of women's football is very different to men's football and actually has a lot of purchasing power but really care about the brands that get involved in the women's game. So it presents a huge opportunity for brands to position themselves differently and really reap the benefit of those growing audiences and fandom.

Speaker 1: 16:54

And one of the things that came out of last summer and the summer before with the Lionesses Euros winning and then the World Cup final last year is the real visibility of those role models and them using that power for good.

Speaker 1: 17:08

I was invited to number 10 last year on International Women's Day, obviously because you can only do things about gender equality on one day of the year, but anyway, I remember seeing Jill Scott and the Lionesses there and they. What I loved about that was, you know there was celebration in that, but there was the absolute use in their power for good. We're using our power for good here on this day to ask for change and to drive change. That is really powerful for me and I know we see it across parts of you know sort of spots of the men's game and you know the likes of your Marcus Rashford's really use it, leaning and using that power. But the fact that there's that it feels like it's a collective team, everyone's into it, aren't they to really drive that change and taking that's going to help us take the sport to the next level, isn't it surely?

Speaker 2: 17:58

Yeah, definitely, and there is a real sense of community within women's football. I think because there's been so much hardship, because there's been so much to overcome to even be allowed to play. And you know, we heard as kind of the build up to the women's Euros. Some of the Lionesses talk about the fact they had to pretend to be boys to be played and then when they got discovered they were kicked out of the team because the girls were beating the boys and heaven forbid that would be. So I think they've had to fight really hard and I had the pleasure of interviewing Karen Carney yesterday, an event that we were doing that women in football and she talks about the role that everybody's played in getting to that final over all of those years. So I think the sense of community and the drive from everyone involved in women's football for the whole game to rise. So it's not about Lee Williams or Beth Meads earning the most money and getting the best commercial deals at the cost of other people earning 8,000 pound a year. Like they have a responsibility and they absolutely wear it day in, day out to raise the whole standard of the game, whether that's playing standards, whether that's coaching standards, whether that's the ability for players' voices to be heard.

Speaker 2: 19:09

We launched our open doors agenda and we had an event at the House of Lords last year around this, because it's almost like when women raise a complaint or an issue, you've got to prove it to the end degree. We saw what happened at the women's world called with Lewis Rabrialis. We've seen that he's kind of sanctions on that, but at the time it was actually unbelievable to see how sustained the defiance was and this lack of acknowledgement of anything that was wrong. So open doors was really about transparency, good governance, making sure women's voices are heard, and the lionesses won the women's shows. What did they do? Every single girl should have access to football in school If she wants to play it.

Speaker 2: 19:51

So what are the schools doing about that? And we've seen the government respond to certain aspects of that, which is positive, but they'll continue to do that. But it puts a lot of pressure on actually, not only have they got to play in a living and train then role models and then they're engaging with the fans and then they've got potential commercial, like it's a lot on the shoulders of the female football players, but they do it brilliantly. And we just saw Mary Epps when BBC Sports personality of the year. She's talked a lot about mental health and being yourself and really advocated and took on Nike, you know, when they didn't have a shirt. It's like these women are real change makers and it makes it a real honor to be in the sport and be able to kind of use those examples to show how not only women's football is growing and can improve, but how women's football can be a catalyst for women's sport to be recognized and seen as more professional than perhaps in some instances. It's because it's where it should be.

Speaker 1: 20:52

And this has got to be everything that you've just said there about Mary Epps, about the collective power of the lioness is saying every girl needs access to football. What excites you about the future of women's football and women's sport?

Speaker 2: 21:06

What excites me the most is that when I think, you know, I've got a teenage daughter and it's the choice that's available to young girls now, and you know, people couldn't have dreamed that it could have been a professional women's footballer, like that just wasn't an option, but now it is. You know, people couldn't dream that you could go and run a Premier League football club, but it happens. Now you can. So for me, it's about choice and inspiration and empowerment. And really, you know, for every woman that's working in this industry, that's saying to somebody that's thinking about it or not even thought it's a possibility yet you can and you will. And that, for me, is the most exciting things about how women's sport can change society, can change perceptions on women. Do this, men do that? Well, no, People talk to me a lot at the moment there's a narrative that's growing around. Well, women's football is growing and so isn't that amazing? Yes, it is. So women can go and work in women's football and men can work in men's football, and it's like, no, this is about choice. You know, somebody wants to go and be a physio in the men's game. If they're a great physio, they can go and be physio in the men's game, just like they can in the women's game. Equally, if a man wants to go and coach in the women's game or be the MD or GM of a women's team, go for it. Like whoever's best positioned for those roles, go for it. But don't take the choice away, because women's football is growing and therefore we can all be pigeonholed, you know, within that.

Speaker 2: 22:36

So for me, the exciting thing is choice and inspiration and empowering people, and that's where, obviously, what we do at Women in Football.

Speaker 2: 22:44

It's about creating pathways, it's about providing education, it's absolutely about challenging discrimination, but it's also about celebrating the amazing women that work in the industry with a view that they can kind of pull through others who want to kind of go behind them. So, yeah, I'm excited about that. Obviously, women's football that's such a critical point. It's really on the crest of a wave and I think there's so many opportunities. Once the NUCO is established we can kind of get a real sense of you know where that's where that's going to go and what the art of the possible is. But, yeah, hugely grateful to the likes of Barclays, who are our lead partner, but they support a huge amount of women's football and without those earlier doctor brands coming in backing it, you wouldn't be where it is today. So, yeah, I'm excited for what's next really, but yeah, for me it's always about how do we empower and how do we inspire, and I think that takes us back to exactly where we started.

Speaker 1: 23:41

Every hon has a responsibility. Every individual, every parent, every organisation. You know every amazing leader like yourself, and I feel like it takes back to the 80s those who know, who know they'd like be. You know, choose life, choose sport, choose your path. I can feel it on a tote bag now.

Speaker 1: 24:00

Oh, yvonne, thank you so much for joining us today. I really appreciate you being part of this wider conversation as we talk about the whole rise and ascendancy of the fantastic things that happen across the whole landscape of sport. Thank you so much for joining me, yvonne. Thanks for having me. Oh, and thank all of you for listening. Please do check out our wider series, which has taken us before, during and after International Women's Day. Like we said at the start, this is not just about one day. We want to keep this conversation going, so please join in on all our socials at North Power Women on Twitter and Northern Power Women on all the others, and drop us a line Podcast at northernpowerwomencom and stay connected with everything we're doing on our digital hub. We are powernet. Thank you so much for listening. My name's Simone. This is the Northern Power Women Podcast. What goes on media production?