Never Would Have Guessed

Episode 2: What our assumptions about consent are really saying

• Bethany Fray • Season 1 • Episode 2

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0:00 | 46:27

What are your assumptions about consent? Naming these internalized beliefs can impact our understanding of consent. From the phrase “no means no” to power dynamics and people pleasing, flipping these scripts can help us cultivate self-compassion and a legacy of empowerment.

Follow us on Instagram @bethany_fray and @charissabrim and online at neverwouldhaveguessed.com

To support the podcast, visit patreon.com/neverwouldhaveguessedpodcast



Charissa

Hello, and welcome to

Bethany

never would have guessed the

Charissa

podcast. I'm

Bethany

one of your hosts,

Charissa

Bethany fray.

Bethany

And I'm your other

Charissa

host Caressa brim. This is a place where we

Bethany

dive into the things never would have guessed

Charissa

about sexual drama. Here's

Bethany

what we want you to

Charissa

No matter

Bethany

your relationship sexual

Charissa

trauma, you are conversation. And while this podcast centers around our experience, the concepts cover

Bethany

may apply other traumas as

Charissa

well. We are not therapist, but

Bethany

has been

Charissa

game changing for of us. seen that safe conversations with trusted people

Bethany

be an anchor

Charissa

in the healing

Bethany

process. We know

Charissa

firsthand that this can be a heavy topic. So

Bethany

this your official invitation to

Charissa

own your experience of this conversation.

Bethany

get minutes in

Charissa

and feel like your have become permanent earrings, Just hit the pause button. a breaths,

Bethany

move your body a

Charissa

bit. Decided

Bethany

today is a good day to enter this conversation.

Charissa

And then trust your decision

Bethany

with no

Charissa

shame. At

Bethany

the end of every episode, we

Charissa

will guide you through

Bethany

a two minute grounding

Charissa

exercise. leave you feeling

Bethany

light and empowered

Charissa

by honest conversation.

Bethany

Thank you so much for joining us. We are so glad you're here.

Charissa

Today, we're going to talk about. Consent. We primarily want to focus on the assumptions. You maybe didn't even realize you have about it. And in order to do that, we're going to discuss what's wrong with the phrase. No means no. The role of power dynamics and consent. And how we experience no in our bodies

Bethany

So I think it's important to say before we get going, that we're intentional in this podcast, not to share specific details of our story. And one of the reasons we try not to get so specific is that the goal is to keep us in the conversation. Right

So, well as bad we want to be here and we want you to be able to be here as long as you want to be here. So we want to be clear, but we also don't want to throw scenarios. Yeah, we don't want to be unnecessarily clumsy and your story on accident. Yep. Just because it's not a specific and ours. Yeah. Doesn't mean that it's not as specific in yours. Yeah Before we recorded this, we were talking about. Like we get weirdly excited to have these conversations and they're hard birder lane triggering conversations, but what dawned on me is that they feel a little bit less triggering because I know that there's a point of why we're talking about this and there's a hope, and there's a component that this conversation is an ingredient for a toolbelt. And there's a distinction I want to make for myself and everyone else. I want to be very clear that what we are not saying is that women should educate themselves out of sexual assault. Oh my gosh. I'm so glad you said. Yeah, absolutely not. Yeah. What we are not doing here is if only you had, if only I had, because that's a trap and what we're trying to do, these conversations is set ourselves free. So I just wanted to acknowledge that peace

Bethany

So when we were brainstorming, Topics for this podcast.

Charissa

One of the things you said.

Bethany

Kind of took me by surprise.

Charissa

And then it struck me because I thought.

Bethany

Oh, my gosh.

Charissa

I've never thought

Bethany

about

Charissa

that.

Bethany

And you are so right.

Charissa

And

Bethany

what you said was. We need to change our assumptions

Charissa

about consent.

Bethany

Can you tell me

Charissa

what you mean by

Bethany

Yeah.

Charissa

So when it comes to

Bethany

sexual trauma,

Charissa

There's

Bethany

obviously so many

Charissa

layers and. Lots of different experiences. Yeah. I think at one point in time, my understanding of sexual trauma was that the trauma itself, began the moment that consent wasn't given And so it's almost like. If we're not

Bethany

crystal clear

Charissa

on

Bethany

the specifics and the way that we talk about consent, then we're not actually very crystal clear about the trauma

Charissa

that's actually happening. Or why it's traumatizing or

Bethany

why we respond

Charissa

the way we do.

Bethany

The ways we do right.

Charissa

Which makes me wonder

Bethany

if this is

Charissa

why women question. sexual trauma. And if it really was how it happened.

Bethany

Yes.

Charissa

You're absolutely right. That's a huge piece,

Bethany

at least for me and my story. I experienced Sexual

Charissa

assault in my

Bethany

early twenties. And.

Charissa

I, at that point. Had, I mean, truthfully. Not really

Bethany

had.

Charissa

conversations about consent, mostly because I grew up

Bethany

in

Charissa

Faith-based background. And so,

Bethany

purity culture, We'll be diving into

Charissa

that later this season. Spoiler

Bethany

alert.

Charissa

So truthfully,

Bethany

like there didn't need to be.

Charissa

Or the assumption.

Bethany

Was

Charissa

that there didn't need to

Bethany

be. A lot of conversations about consent,

Charissa

but there was one resoundingly statement that I for sure knew.

Bethany

And that we all know and say, And that is no means. No. And that tries

Charissa

me

Bethany

freaking bonkers. Because.

Charissa

what that is inadvertently telling

Bethany

us. Is that the baseline

Charissa

assumption? Is

Bethany

that the answer is yes. Whoa.

Charissa

Yeah.

Bethany

What

Charissa

it's saying is it's all systems go. And tell

Bethany

I say

Charissa

no. That is the wrong way to

Bethany

think of it.

Charissa

Because that

Bethany

A lot to ask. Of somebody. What it needs to be.

Charissa

Is yes

Bethany

means yes.

Charissa

The baseline assumption. Is, you don't have permission.

Bethany

unless I explicitly

Charissa

give it to

Bethany

you. Man. That is so. Powerful.

Charissa

And when you say it, when

Bethany

you say it, my

Charissa

response. is like, oh my gosh. Of course. Yeah. You know, but

Bethany

it is.

Charissa

I mean you're you're

Bethany

so right.

Charissa

There is this

Bethany

assumption.

Charissa

Like, we're both going to be ready to go. And unless

Bethany

I say

Charissa

You just keep going and by the, you were talking about.

Bethany

The man in the

Charissa

situation or

Bethany

the.

Charissa

Um, What's some other word for that? Like

Bethany

the. Uh, Instigator. Yeah, we'll see. Okay, this

Charissa

is a great example of why, like the understanding of

Bethany

consent is tricky, right? Because. I

Charissa

think.

Bethany

This is where it gets hard is you can

Charissa

be the

Bethany

instigator and then

Charissa

we're told.

Bethany

At any

Charissa

point.

Bethany

You can say, no, you can re like

Charissa

you can take back. what

Bethany

you've started. Yeah. But in Actuality,

Charissa

No you can't or at least not simply.

Bethany

Yeah, it takes a really strong. Grounded. And confident

Charissa

person.

Bethany

What is not. Understood

Charissa

is that.

Bethany

In.

Charissa

Environments like that there is

Bethany

a power dynamic.

Charissa

And again, I'm

Bethany

Only representing my. Experience,

Charissa

but.

Bethany

As a woman in her twenties who is, interacting with a

Charissa

man in his

Bethany

twenties.

Charissa

I'm a strong lady, but

Bethany

I

Charissa

end up throwing up

Bethany

there And here's the deal. Like,

Charissa

even if there's no evidence that there might be violence or anything,

Bethany

like there is still a fear of like, I might

Charissa

not be able to get myself out of this. If it goes

Bethany

sideways. And so, you know, I think our bodies kind of go into

Charissa

like fear and protection mode. And so we're not

Bethany

wanting to test it out to

Charissa

find out if I'm getting.

Bethany

to

Charissa

challenge that power dynamic. Yeah.

Bethany

so you brought

Charissa

up. A power dynamic that you felt

Bethany

as a young

Charissa

heterosexual woman. What other power dynamics do you think

Bethany

exist?

Charissa

Was in consent. Gosh, so many. The

Bethany

power dynamic of money,

Charissa

when someone is

Bethany

buying you drinks,

Charissa

like I was always taught to be really thankful and to show with my actions, you know, like,

Bethany

okay. If I have been

Charissa

gifted something Now it's my turn to give something back in return. Well, that

Bethany

gets really

Charissa

dicey.

Bethany

We talked about the gender, the strength

Charissa

depending on

Bethany

your. societal or religious upbringing. There's Teachings

Charissa

of what

Bethany

your role is as a woman.

Charissa

Yeah. which. creates. A huge power dynamic.

Bethany

You know,

Charissa

I'm expected.

Bethany

to

Charissa

consider the

Bethany

other's pain tolerance. Oh, my

Charissa

God. I'm getting

Bethany

a little bit fired

Charissa

up.

Bethany

Can we pause on that for a second?

Charissa

It was like,

Bethany

Men need a release.

Charissa

With no acknowledgement.

Bethany

Of the sexual desire or drive of a woman.

Charissa

Granted it changes in various

Bethany

stages of your life, but also like

Charissa

as women, we also have sexual desire and sexual cravings.

Bethany

And those moments that I hope this is not true. Intends to say. But there are moments

Charissa

where My sexual desire can be so intense that it feels like

Bethany

I need

Charissa

a quote on quote release,

Bethany

but it was

Charissa

so.

Bethany

Focused on the male. And we

Charissa

were brought up, there were similarities

Bethany

and differences and the way that we were taught

Charissa

how to be a woman. but one of the ways that it was similar was.

Bethany

you are

Charissa

to be. The helper.

Bethany

Uh,

Charissa

Be the

Bethany

best assistant you can be

Charissa

in all the ways. Um, And

Bethany

for

Charissa

me,

Bethany

I don't know about you. The

Charissa

man is the head of the household.

Bethany

The man is

Charissa

the head of the church. The man is the head of the

Bethany

business. The man

Charissa

is the head of the bedroom. Absolutely. Absolutely.

Bethany

And you know what happens

Charissa

there. You have just perfectly described.

Bethany

How we churn out people

Charissa

pleasers. Right. Like That is a

Bethany

recipe for,

Charissa

I am a pleaser. And that

Bethany

doesn't just get

Charissa

contained. To your romantic relationship, like it becomes a full thing. And so talk about a parenting. That's absolutely another power dynamic. I have this.

Bethany

On ending burden. To please the people around

Charissa

me. And so I actually

Bethany

don't know

Charissa

how to digest. If I upset somebody. I have made some

Bethany

really notable

Charissa

strides, particularly in the last few years, but

Bethany

my gosh,

Charissa

It was full shut

Bethany

down.

Charissa

If I upset

Bethany

somebody.

Charissa

And that would be like on accident.

Bethany

Like if I accidentally. shut

Charissa

someone down. So avoid that

Bethany

at all costs. Yeah. So like purposefully say

Charissa

no. You guys. I. can't, I, At that

Bethany

time, I couldn't have said

Charissa

no to a

Bethany

best friend who wanted me to like,

Charissa

bring her

Bethany

coffee.

Charissa

Oh, my gosh, Chris, it's

Bethany

funny because

Charissa

it's so

Bethany

true. It's so true. I think you've uncovered

Charissa

something so important. In order for consent to work.

Bethany

We have to understand how to say no in other categories. And in smaller ways and in ways that are less

Charissa

risky. we're not even taught to

Bethany

say no to the smallest amount.

Charissa

So how in

Bethany

the hell are we going to be able to say no when the stakes

Charissa

are high and you're confused,

Bethany

or Maybe you're like, oh,

Charissa

I don't know how I got myself here. Exactly. But now I'm

Bethany

realizing, this is not

Charissa

where

Bethany

I need

Charissa

to be. I

Bethany

hear you.

Charissa

Calling

Bethany

attention.

Charissa

To the fact that human beings we're not

Bethany

an amalgamation of

Charissa

off and on switches. Ooh. Okay. Tell me more about

Bethany

that. So like You're

Charissa

saying. That if we can't

Bethany

say no in the small things, how on God's

Charissa

green earth? Are we supposed to be able to say no to

Bethany

the big things? Yeah. It's not a

Charissa

switch. You don't just all of us

Bethany

had know how

Charissa

to say no means no. That is something that is a muscle.

Bethany

Right. You

Charissa

have to strengthen

Bethany

it. It has to practice

Charissa

it.

Bethany

It has to figure

Charissa

out. When there is push. How do you

Bethany

stand your

Charissa

ground in it?

Bethany

What feels important to me to kind of like,

Charissa

I guess,

Bethany

land this, because this

Charissa

is hard to talk about, right? Like

Bethany

I'm like getting a little bit hot thinking.

Charissa

About it because it's like, oh, for something so simple. It's so

Bethany

deeply impactful. It's so it's, it is complex. It's so complex. I want. It to be simple,

Charissa

but it's complex. Yes.

Bethany

And so what

Charissa

happens.

Bethany

Is you have these women?

Charissa

Or

Bethany

men.

Charissa

People get into situations

Bethany

that feel safe until they're And then you can't just pull the rip cord. And so then you

Charissa

feel guilty

Bethany

as hell.

Charissa

or shameful as hell

Bethany

or weak as

Charissa

hell, whatever.

Bethany

But

Charissa

there's a whole lot of hell in. it.

Bethany

Yeah. Yeah. And that's just

Charissa

unfair that that is an unfair assumption about consent. but at any given moment, you

Bethany

can just whip it

Charissa

out and You're

Bethany

you're good to go. Mm

Charissa

mm. Do you think. If women knew what no felt like in their bodies. That it would be easier to access when you

Bethany

are. So

Charissa

wildly in your body.

Bethany

Wow. You have just blown my mind.

Charissa

The answer is a hundred percent. Yes.

Bethany

You

Charissa

have just

Bethany

brought up such an important piece. All these pieces go together. Right. So it's

Charissa

like, which comes

Bethany

first. How do they

Charissa

build? Like it's such a tangled mess. Oftentimes.

Bethany

We

Charissa

are.

Bethany

Told to suck it up or.

Charissa

Like.

Bethany

We're told to shut it down.

Charissa

A thousand different

Bethany

ways.

Charissa

I

Bethany

don't know if this is how you I grew up in athletics. And so I was consistently

Charissa

for better or

Bethany

worse. I don't

Charissa

quite know

Bethany

where to put it. But, It was mind over matter.

Charissa

you know, if my

Bethany

body is saying I

Charissa

can't do it anymore.

Bethany

You gotta put harder. Shut it

Charissa

out. Tune it out.

Bethany

Pain

Charissa

is weakness leaving

Bethany

the body. So,

Charissa

okay.

Bethany

This is like pushing past. This is

Charissa

going to be a reward

Bethany

for me, you

Charissa

know? Yeah.

Bethany

So I think

Charissa

personally, I. Felt

Bethany

no in really well-intentioned ways. Right? Like I wanted to get a full ride scholarship. You know, like. I had a goal. So I don't want to paint it in such a negative

Charissa

light, but I do think

Bethany

that I had way more

Charissa

practice. Ignoring my body's nose. Then I had

Bethany

practice listening and honoring them. Mm. mm. Okay. So I've said a lot here.

Charissa

I feel really strongly about consent. I think it's really crucial to. The way that

Bethany

we construct. Our narratives of

Charissa

our experiences. But I

Bethany

know that we've

Charissa

had different experiences.

Bethany

So as you're

Charissa

asking these questions, and as I'm talking about my

Bethany

ex. what goes through your mind? Because you had

Charissa

a different experience. Yeah. Yeah. I

Bethany

mean, just as you

Charissa

were, as you were speaking that last piece.

Bethany

About

Charissa

what no feels like in my body. There are two things that come to mind.

Bethany

One is easier

Charissa

for me.

Bethany

So it's like, oh, I wouldn't explore that first.

Charissa

because the other one is, is harder.

Bethany

The first thing that comes to mind

Charissa

for me. And this is more in

Bethany

my.

Charissa

As an adult So

Bethany

I'm

Charissa

an Enneagram eight,

Bethany

which means protection. Number one on my list.

Charissa

Like, I want

Bethany

to protect my people. I want to protect other people. I want to protect

Charissa

myself.

Bethany

And

Charissa

depending on where I'm at, like that comes out in great loving ways,

Bethany

or It can be harmful to be

Charissa

perfectly honest.

Bethany

It can be.

Charissa

Abrasive. for me

Bethany

in my early

Charissa

twenties. Like just mirroring your experience in your early twenties. I was

Bethany

told

Charissa

again and again, specifically in work contexts. you're a bulldog. You have too many opinions. You're way too confident. For your age implied

Bethany

for being a woman.

Charissa

So.

Bethany

I wavered in my trust of my instinct and of my know, and of my, um,

Charissa

My ability to,

Bethany

speak. for myself in big and small ways. Because

Charissa

I

Bethany

don't think I was like actually processing this with my frontal lobe. It was going

Charissa

on in the background. But I

Bethany

wasn't getting good feedback.

Charissa

And

Bethany

so

Charissa

I walked around. Like I said, background

Bethany

processing. Oh, gosh, Bethany, if you could

Charissa

just be.

Bethany

Less

Charissa

opinionated.

Bethany

If you could

Charissa

just speak like I

Bethany

kind of did

Charissa

this pendulum swing. Like I would go in this shame corner of just like, oh, I'm

Bethany

not a

Charissa

helper. I'm not a helper. I'm not a

Bethany

helper. Like I don't just assimilate into the work

Charissa

environment and like,

Bethany

You know, make it better, which is actually not

Charissa

true about me.

Bethany

few things are

Charissa

100% sure about us, right.

Bethany

Or I would

Charissa

swing to the other side of the pendulum, which was,

Bethany

no, dammit.

Charissa

This is important,

Bethany

but then I would almost, it was like I would over

Charissa

do

Bethany

it, right.

Charissa

Because I

Bethany

felt so weak.

Charissa

In giving my

Bethany

consent.

Charissa

That in order to do it

Bethany

all of this

Charissa

energy that's been stored

Bethany

up. And then all of a sudden it's just like, why am

Charissa

I, You know, and then that really isn't received great either. I mean that could result in violence that could

Bethany

result in

Charissa

Getting a physical situation that wasn't safe.

Bethany

That could result in like struggling in the workplace, Bethany,

Charissa

you have just highlighted.

Bethany

Such an important element

Charissa

of this.

Bethany

And I would even go so far as to say it's another one of those power

Charissa

dynamics. Because what you've

Bethany

just described

Charissa

is.

Bethany

Like I was

Charissa

speaking to.

Bethany

How hard it is to

Charissa

say And you just put words. To well, what happens

Bethany

when you do say now? It's too much.

Charissa

Yeah. And

Bethany

it's not just

Charissa

that your no is

Bethany

too much. It's you are too

Charissa

much. Oh,

Bethany

oh. That phrase. I'm taking

Charissa

a deep breath. Oh,

Bethany

my gosh. Oh,

Charissa

you named it. 'cause like the two go hand in hand,

Bethany

right? Like

Charissa

even if I

Bethany

haven't personally. Had my no. Responded to in

Charissa

such a way that I

Bethany

internalize. My nose too much. I

Charissa

am

Bethany

too much. I sure.

Charissa

have seen other women. Get that exact same feedback. And

Bethany

even if

Charissa

not directly like sometimes the way.

Bethany

People talk about.

Charissa

A woman who is bossy versus

Bethany

leadership style, right? Like all of

Charissa

those are just such subtle little phrases

Bethany

and it doesn't just

Charissa

come from men. No, in fact, I

Bethany

would say. Oftentimes it comes

Charissa

from. Women. Maybe more who are scolding other

Bethany

women for Being too strong in

Charissa

the no department. Stepping outside its lines. Well,

Bethany

it's

Charissa

fear. Either side of the pendulum. If I'm a woman

Bethany

who is. Speaking down on

Charissa

a woman who is Strong

Bethany

in herself

Charissa

and her presence and her know for the sake of this conversation. Yeah.

Bethany

it's subconscious. Right? But

Charissa

it's like,

Bethany

being dumb. It's being demanded

Charissa

of me. That I

Bethany

play within this small box. How dare you step outside. It.

Charissa

Ooh. either we're all in it or we're all

Bethany

out of it,

Charissa

but this isn't fair. Like get back in the fence,

Bethany

get back. Yeah.

Charissa

Okay, so you've brought up. What it

Bethany

was

Charissa

like in your experience.

Bethany

To have exercised your know And how people responded to

Charissa

that. What

Bethany

other thoughts? Come to mind when it comes

Charissa

to.

Bethany

Consent

Charissa

and your experience.

Bethany

Here's the one that I saved

Charissa

for a second. Cause like I said, it's the. It's the

Bethany

more tender one. Like, it's easier for me to talk about

Charissa

how. How strong

Bethany

name? Um,

Charissa

So my, experience was

Bethany

childhood sexual trauma. And, and

Charissa

I was pretty young. So. I mean,

Bethany

talk about a power dynamic. Hmm.

Charissa

You know, when you're in that

Bethany

little, everyone is in authority over you.

Charissa

I mean, gosh, I have so much compassion when

Bethany

I think about the younger me,

Charissa

because she didn't even have a

Bethany

chance. You know, and for me it was a family member.

Charissa

And so of course there's just built

Bethany

in.

Charissa

Trust and,

Bethany

you know, we were part of the generation of

Charissa

like,

Bethany

parents are the

Charissa

authoritarian, right? And the good kids, which believe it or not,

Bethany

I wanted to be a good

Charissa

kid.

Bethany

Even though I

Charissa

like, I fly this rebel flags. and I don't,

Bethany

Um,

Charissa

I was

Bethany

definitely like, oh, I'm a good kid. I make good grades, you know? So.

Charissa

Um,

Bethany

So I just, it wasn't even a thought for me, you know? And. And trauma

Charissa

is so disoriented.

Bethany

Um, so I think.

Charissa

That's the response I have.

Bethany

For myself is.

Charissa

Gosh, you

Bethany

didn't stand a

Charissa

chance. Because you were little. And you didn't even really

Bethany

understand what was happening to you. And.

Charissa

As

Bethany

little kids

Charissa

we follow. Like, that's what we do. We are curious and we follow and we explore.

Bethany

And. In general little

Charissa

kids assume. If something's not going right. The problem was with me. Like kids

Bethany

take that on. You know, like it's

Charissa

my fault.

Bethany

Because we

Charissa

know like, you know, early

Bethany

childhood development. Little kids, just

Charissa

the world

Bethany

revolves around them. And

Charissa

the cutest

Bethany

and most annoying ways, you know? And so.

Charissa

When you are developmentally in that place of,

Bethany

I am at

Charissa

the center of this world. And something confusing or painful or scary

Bethany

is happening to me. I am

Charissa

causing it. I

Bethany

think it's actually easier for me to describe. As

Charissa

a mom to two young kids. It's

Bethany

been interesting for me

Charissa

as a mother. And I'm raising two little boys. So.

Bethany

I have a four-year-old

Charissa

and a two-year-old and here's what I've noticed.

Bethany

My two-year-old. Is very well-equipped.

Charissa

At saying no. Hmm. And think about the way

Bethany

we described

Charissa

two year olds.

Bethany

It's

Charissa

the terrible twos. Oh,

Bethany

wow. Yeah. They're

Charissa

literally described as terrible.

Bethany

Because they're good at advocating for themselves. Oh,

Charissa

my gosh.

Bethany

And so, wow. And so we. I mean from my

Charissa

point of view, as a mother of little kids,

Bethany

Granted.

Charissa

We're talking about a very

Bethany

specific place, right? My son has no problem advocating for the fact.

Charissa

That he should turn on the stove and put his hands on it

Bethany

I'm

Charissa

not saying that we don't

Bethany

say absolutely

Charissa

not. You may not

Bethany

do that, But in the area

Charissa

of their Bodies. And instilling

Bethany

that power. We train kids. To turn off

Charissa

the, no that their body communicates.

Bethany

Yes.

Charissa

At

Bethany

like as toddlers. Yes.

Charissa

Eat the food on your plate. It's

Bethany

time to change your diaper. Go

Charissa

to the bathroom.

Bethany

Kiss grandma Good night. We just demand all

Charissa

these things

Bethany

have their little body.

Charissa

And.

Bethany

It's an interesting for

Charissa

me as a mother.

Bethany

Processing.

Charissa

How do I teach

Bethany

my sons? That. They have ownership.

Charissa

And

Bethany

that they can fully embody themselves. And to be

Charissa

curious about their

Bethany

bodies and what it's saying.

Charissa

So that when they are older,

Bethany

and when they are

Charissa

adults,

Bethany

They

Charissa

respect themselves.

Bethany

and therefore.

Charissa

They respect the

Bethany

people that they are with. they're not just

Charissa

assuming. Yes. Because they don't assume yes. About

Bethany

themselves.

Charissa

One of my greatest desires is. It's for my kids, not to power through.

Bethany

Mm that's beautiful.

Charissa

I want them to have

Bethany

permission.

Charissa

To first say. Hmm, I'm not

Bethany

okay right now.

Charissa

to be able to assess, and again, this is talking about them as an

Bethany

adult, right? But to be able

Charissa

to actually reflect like tune in. I'm not okay

Bethany

right now. What are my responsibilities? What has to be done? How can I take care of me? And fulfill

Charissa

A commitment that I've made or whatever it is, right. But it starts. Young.

Bethany

So young, this is not something we need to be teaching girls.

Charissa

When they're 13. Wow.

Bethany

Bethany, that's such a

Charissa

helpful

Bethany

perspective. As someone who is not a parent.

Charissa

I. I

Bethany

Didn't think about those

Charissa

connections. and.

Bethany

What I

Charissa

hear you even kind of like, um, Uh,

Bethany

juggling with like, whether it's

Charissa

with humor or whatever,

Bethany

is this.

Charissa

The innate.

Bethany

Skill that comes with being a young

Charissa

kid. The default is kind of

Bethany

known as the default. now,

Charissa

like I mean, shirt depends

Bethany

on disposition,

Charissa

but like, There's a good

Bethany

bit. Of nose. What I hear you

Charissa

saying.

Bethany

Is,

Charissa

this is not just an important

Bethany

lesson for young girls

Charissa

to learn.

Bethany

At

Charissa

a young age.

Bethany

But also for young boys to learn at a young age.

Charissa

Is how to. Understand. Getting a no. And having a no.

Bethany

Shut down.

Charissa

Because

Bethany

what you're essentially instilling.

Charissa

Is empathy. It seems like the goal. Is for people to have say over what happens to their own body. And when that's possible, when they have authority over their own body. When we have authority over our own bodies, We can respect and understand another person's authority over their own body. You

Bethany

named

Charissa

a key component. Which is empathy.

Bethany

And as you were talking, I was thinking, oh man, yep. That's another piece. Embodiment. Understanding what no feels like

Charissa

in your body.

Bethany

Um,

Charissa

empathy. For another's body for

Bethany

their understanding for their no.

Charissa

um, In the way that

Bethany

it's supposed to be. Sex

Charissa

is an understanding of

Bethany

yourself and an understanding of another.

Charissa

Wow. That's so good.

Bethany

So

Charissa

good. The understanding of your

Bethany

body and another person's body. Whatever

Charissa

that looks like, whatever it looks like. And if you are not in tuned with how your body feels. Why on. Earth would

Bethany

you have empathy for

Charissa

how someone else's

Bethany

body feels. And

Charissa

why would it be so out of bounds to be like,

Bethany

oh, you're fine.

Charissa

Or you can

Bethany

just. Push through it or

Charissa

whatever. Okay. So I have a question for you. That's hyper-specific. To raising children, but I'm asking because just. In general, I think, um,

Bethany

To understand or

Charissa

make change on a big level. Oftentimes. it starts at

Bethany

a really small level.

Charissa

So I kind of want to do that with a human life.

Bethany

If we're going to make a big change

Charissa

for an adult life, like, how do we, where does that start as a little life?

Okay. So I'm putting you on blast as a parenting expert, right? Because I have four and a half years of experience. No, basically I'm a pro. Okay. So here's what I will say about you though. I have dear listener. I have had the chance to spend some time with Bethany and her kids and her husband. And the way Bethany that you talk with your child. When there is a note is really stark. Like it's notable. It is dare I say, trauma informed. Like it's really, really considered you treat them like little humans with big dealings, which like aren't we all actually just little humans with big feelings who have unfortunately been shaped to be big humans with little feelings, I think unfortunately, but anyways, all that to say, I'm curious. And this is less for parenting, but more just for like, okay, how can we treat our inner child? Like, how can we treat ourselves? What do you do when one of your little ones is saying no to something that they need or yes, to something that's dangerous? Like how, how would you navigate that? Um, okay. That's a good question. And let me just verbally process my review because I am not sprung this on you little flirt together. Okay. Okay. Can you share, uh, the first thing that comes to mind is naming it. So, um, let's say my toddler wants to feed the dog, his leg. And I can see in his brain, he is like, he has this vision. It's going to be very exciting for him because he has a Lego and he's going to feed this machine and then it's going to be gone. And it's fascinating and it's exciting. And it's just really cool. And obviously I'm going to intercept this very quickly because I didn't want to pay a ridiculous amount of money to get Leo out of my dog. So the first thing I tried to just name it. So I'll go over and say, oh, you really want to feed this Lego to. So it's acknowledging you have this desire or you're trying to do this thing. And then depending on the emotion, I see, I'll try to name the emotion too. So you really want to feed this Lego to birdie and it sounds really fun so that I am trying to help them by reflecting what I see as their mother, I'm trying to center them and their own. This is me. This is what's going on for me, because we're going to start with that. And then I'm going to say we don't feed Lego sobriety. We feed her dog food. Would you like to help me feed her a treat? And so then it's like a redirection, but I think just that act of saying, I see you, this is the emotion I seen. And I hope like haven't seen this play out yet. So, so TBD, but my hope is that they can do that for themselves without thinking later, Absolutely. My weird little hunch, I think was spot freaking on about how you pay. A small child and how we can parent ourselves in these moments that demand consents. Because what you have just said, if I'm hearing you correctly is there's basically three steps and the first is name the desire, name, the emotion, and then name, what can be done in this. So think about The woman who is having a hard time, figuring out how to say no, or give consent. And you're feeling that shame or the guilt or the intensity of like saying no is going to walk me off this cliff. This feels impossible. You can name the desired that you don't want to do this anymore. You can name the feeling. This is scary as hell.

Charissa

And then remind yourself. That it's not only okay. But it's within your right to divert the situation. Because after all others don't get to demand something of your body. And back, there's a lot more to you than that. And you know, that feels impossible from my perspective, thinking about. My experience. But if I had been practicing that from a young age, I wonder how naturally that would have come in the moment. Uh, regardless. I do think by the time you get to that point.

and you've named the feeling behind. You're connected. You're connected. And I think if you're that, if you're feeling that connected to your body and your know, and your knowing, I think here all that more empowered gives me a much better chance that's for sure. And it makes me curious, like, going back to the beginning, or you said instead of no means no it's guest means yes. What if instead of the. Broad phrases. What if, in addition to physical ways for women to protect themselves, you know, like the way you hold your car key at like your purse, like those things are so practical and helpful. And what if in addition to that, there was this component of, and these ear options when it's not just like somebody. Across you in a, in a parking lot. I think I kind of want to ground it and take all this hard work that we've done. Dear listener, because if you've made it this far, you've done hard work too. So if you've made it here, I'm asking you listener and also you Bethany, what about consent feels empowering right now? Like this conversation, the things that. Challenging these assumptions, like, does that empower you? And if so, where and how? For me personally, the most empowering part is being a mom like for my own journey. That's the most empowering part. This would have been news to me 10 years ago, because I still was like, ah, I don't know if I want to have kids because the world is a mess and my childhood was a mess. And to be perfectly honest, I don't totally trust myself. I mean, you know, and on and on. So I smile when I hear myself say that because even that is hard one, To me. This conversation is about legacy for the ones who are not the definition of a mother. As in you are raising a tiny human currently in your house at the moment. I personally, maybe we could have a whole episode about this one, but I personally define mother as it's a much wider. Um, but our legacy as not just the ones we birth, but the ones that we are in it with right now and the ones who are five years younger than us, the ones who were 10 years younger than us, the ones who are so much cooler than us and 15 years younger than it's about legacy. Note for the audio. We're three feet apart at a weeping. Wow. See, this is, this is why it's important to healing to talk about this because I don't think I would have ever made the connection that you just did between consent and legacy because you're right. The distinction you made is important, but it does so often because. Such a retrospective word and like, what if it was a future forward word? So the way that you described the empowerment in this conversation about consent is a legacy. And I think for me, Karesa, this is breeding grounds for self-compassion. Because to your earlier point, there's so many shitter cut of waters, and then you realize given all the ingredients, I don't know. I couldn't, and that's really sad. And like Dan needs to be creeped and also it helps to give them. Some freak and flack for why I didn't quote my harder. Why I didn't quote, just get out of there. Why didn't quote, no better. There's so much going on. There are so many factors. There's so much about my personality. There's so much ingrained. It's not one single moment. It's an accumulation of an entire life and that's hard, but that means it wasn't my fault. All of those ways that I didn't feel equipped. I am now that much more equipped. I can say no to really silly things now. And that actually means that I'm more equipped to say no to really big things and saying, no, does it make me a buzzkill or a bitch just makes me a person who's really more aware of who I am in the space that I'm in. Orchards. Can't get me to how thankful I am for you taking up this space with me, like words. Can't get me there. Yeah. I couldn't agree more. And I just want to hop up to like 40,000 feet and give a bird's eye view of what just happened. Earlier you alluded to how sometimes women are the nastiest voice. When it comes to shaming and blaming the nose, What has just happened? Amazing feminine, mothering energy. to me, this feels like a low grade revolution tattoo. Women are offering layer, feminine power and vulnerability to each other. Gosh, Chrissa. I'm so thankful for your perspective on this for your eyes to see I'm so thankful that no means now has struck you like shirk you as wrong. I'm sorry that it's a burden. You've carried this innate wisdom. That you have, that we've been able to tap into today has cost you something. And so I feel like he has handed us a gift and standing up and saying, this is not okay. And it bothers me and let's talk about it. We need more of that. Thank you for reflecting that back.

Bethany

Fran. Thank you so much for just being with us in this conversation today. I don't know about you, but I am. Ready for that grounding exercise. So Chris is going to lead us through a few stretches today just to get us feeling. A little bit lighter, move this conversation through our bodies and get ready for the next thing.

Charissa

Today, I'm going to walk us through three basic stretches. Each stretch is paired with a simple mindfulness practice. The goal is not to do the stretch perfectly. But rather to simply invite yourself back home to your body. However you can. Let's begin today with our arms. Take one arm. And stretch it across your body. With your arm extended look past your fingertips. Find three objects of the same color. Take a deep breath in. A deep breath out. And switch arms. Stretch that arm across your body. Look past your fingertips. And focus on three objects. Of the same color again. Now we'll open our chest. By locking our arms behind our back and stretching, open our chest. Take three deep breaths here. And on the exhale. Repeat the mantra. I release. And bring to mind. One thing that feels hard at the moment. Let's begin. Inhale one. Exhale. I release. Inhale to. Exhale. I release. Last one Inhale three. Exhale. I release. Moving on. Gently stretch your neck. To each side. On each side. Express gratitude. For two things. That help keep you centered right now. Let's start with our right. Pressing our ear into our shoulder. Bringing to mind. Two things that keep us centered. Deep breath in. Deep breath out. Now, moving to the left side. Stretching her ear to her shoulder. Expressing gratitude for two more things. That keep us centered. Deep breath in. Deep breath out. And that concludes today's grounding exercise. Breathing deeply. Paying attention to my body. These have all been crucial to my healing And If I'm honest Part of my healing journey has also included learning how to feel comfortable asking for what I would like. So here If you enjoyed this conversation today, please feel free to share it and rate, review, and subscribe wherever it is that you listen. You can find us on Instagram at Bethany underscore fray and at Carissa brim. Or online@neverwouldhaveguessed.com. You can also help sustain the podcast by becoming one of our Patrion subscribers. Find us at patrion.com/never would have guessed podcast.. All of this really does make a gigantic difference for us and helping these conversations. Make their way to others who need them to. Friends. Thank you so much for listening. As you go out into the rest of your day. May you feel empowered to navigate the things others never would've guessed about you. And to make room for others doing the same. We'll see you guys next week